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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Eastman on Thursday 28 June 07 19:21 BST (UK)

Title: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: Eastman on Thursday 28 June 07 19:21 BST (UK)
I have the following unamed wedding photograph and recognise no-one in it but am desperate to identify the people shown as I think they are distant relatives.

All I have to go on is then the vicar on the left of the picture, the photographer V. Spencer, Longsight, and the guess that it was taken in the 1920's - 30's.

Do you recognise this vicar? or, do you have any photo or newspaper cutting of this vicar which might give a clue to the name of his church?  - as once I know that I can search through it's register.

ANY help gratefully received.

(http://web.onetel.com/~colingjones/wedding.jpg)

(http://web.onetel.com/~colingjones/vicar.jpg)
Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: Barbara.H on Friday 29 June 07 00:36 BST (UK)
What a lovely photo.  Have a look at genuki for some modern day photos,

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/Kirkmanshulme/   

Maybe this will help? A list of Longsight churches  quickly taken from my trusty copy of 'Longsight Past & Present' by Gay Sussex. Might jog someone's memory.

Calvinistic Methodist Church, Daisy Bank Rd aka The Welsh Church, built  c1913, closed 1951.
College Chapel Methodist Church, Dickenson Rd, built 1907, closed 1978. Reopened as  the Church of the God of Prophecy
First Church of Christ. Scientist,  Daisy Bank Rd, Victoria Park. 1903 – 1971, now  the Edgar Wood Centre
Independent Chapel, Lime Grove (Ivy chapel), opened 1853, closed 1933
Longsight Free Christian Church (Unitarian Chapel), Birch Lane/Plymouth Grove corner. Opened in the 1880s, closed 1948.
Longsight Baptist Church, Slade Lane, opened 1900.  Later became the Church of God 7th Day
Longsight Methodist Church, Stockport Rd, 1853 - 1966
Longsight Presbyterian church, Stockport Rd opened 1870
North Rd Methodist Chapel, East Rd, opened 1911, extended 1959. Name changed to Northmoor Rd Methodist Church in 1968.
Roby Congregational, Dickenson Rd, 1911.
St Agnes C of E, Hamilton Rd, consecrated 1885
St Clements C of E, Gray St consecrated 1876 (now demolished)
St Johns C of E, St Johns Rd consecrated 1846 – only church in Longsight with a graveyard. In 1929 was amalgamated with St Cyprian's of Stanley Grove
St Josephs RC Church, Plymouth Grove, opened in 1915. (site originally housed the St Josephs Technical School Chapel)
St Roberts RC Church, Hamilton Rd. The current church was built in 1970 but an earlier building was there before it.
Re-organised Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Beresford Rd. Opened in 1923.

No mention in the book of Bethshan Tabernacle,  Slade Hall Grove, but I would guess by its architecture  that Bethshan was built later than this photo.

If anyone knows about ecclesiastical robes,  could help to identify the denomination of the vicar, if not the man himself? I used to go to North Rd Methodist Sunday school & I don't recall the ministers wearing full robes like this, but maybe they did for weddings.

Good luck!
 ;D Barbara

Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: mshrmh on Friday 29 June 07 11:40 BST (UK)
Sorry, I can't help as such.
Regarding the vicar's long robes - I've got a 1940s wedding photo with a similarly clad vicar who is "high church" C of E - just to confuse the issue he was a relative who took that wedding rather than the vicar of the actual church where the ceremony took place.
I'd agree with you Barbara - unlikely to be Methodist - if anything those I've been to have a white lightweight robe (?surplice) over standard suit - not long robes. I'd guess C of E or RC.
Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: Barbara.H on Friday 29 June 07 12:40 BST (UK)
Hi, thanks for the PM. Here again is the website address for Longsight Memories, which includes a superb memoir of life on North Rd Longsight in the 1940s/50s

http://manchesterhistory.net/LONGSIGHT/MEMORIES/memories.html

In the hope that someone else sees it and it jogs a memory somewhere. And if you can find out what church denomination your wedding family were, it will cut your search down a bit!
forgot also to mention on the above list, St Richards RC church on Sutcliffe Avenue.  If the family were Catholic, this would have been their nearest church. If they were C of E it would have been St Cyprians

 :) :) :)
Barbara
Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: Eastman on Saturday 30 June 07 15:04 BST (UK)
Thankyou for the thoughtful responses.

I am leaning towards the vicar being from St Clement's, Longsight as I believe St Clement's was a high church, Church of England.

I know the Rev. George Hayden was the vicar of St Clement's in 1912 and would like to know if he was still there in the 1920's - 1930's

So if a kind reader has access to Crockfords Clerical Directory could you please check the record of the Rev. George Hayden for me as this directory will list when and where he was appointed.

If I have this record  I could look in the local newspapers for his appointment or retirement from the church which are usually accompanied by a photograph which I can then compare against mine to see if I'm right or wrong.

A long way round but probably the only way forward!
Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: Barbara.H on Friday 27 November 09 10:53 GMT (UK)
Following a nice PM from Eastman, I thought I'd put this one back at the top of the list.  If nothing else, because the weather here is still terrible and in the photo its dry and sunny!  :D

Since I last looked, Ancestry have put out the 1929 Manchester directory and a possible for the photographer might be:
Vernon Spencer, artist, 22 Rowsley Avenue, Levenshulme.

Rowsley Ave has been renamed Rushmere Ave, off Barlow Rd, which is midway between St Marks C of E church on Manor Rd and St Peters on Stockport Rd.

Does anyone  think that this photo might be of either St Marks or St Peters?

 :) Barbara

PS: 1929 directory also has a section on churches and the clergy: rector of St Marks was Thomas Henry Ethell, and St Peters was Frank Iliff (an inventor! google him!).  Going back to the original suggestion of St Clements, rector there was Arthur John Henstock.

Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: uk2003 on Friday 27 November 09 15:20 GMT (UK)
http://www.crockford.org.uk/

No G or George Hayden on their website search engine
Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: uk2003 on Friday 27 November 09 15:26 GMT (UK)
1929 ECCLESIASTICAL DIRECTORY - DIOCESE OF MANCHESTER

ST. Clement, Longsight, Ducie st-
Rev. Arthur John Henstock. M.A. rector. The Rectory. Marlow Street, Longsight
Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: uk2003 on Friday 27 November 09 15:42 GMT (UK)
1913 ECCLESIASTICAL DIRECTORY - DIOCESE OF MANCHESTER

ST. Clement, Longsight, Ducie st-
Rev. George Hayden. rector. The Rectory. Marlow Street, New bank Street, Longsight
Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: Eastman on Friday 27 November 09 23:53 GMT (UK)
Thank you Barbara and MancsMan for the additional information, I have a lot  more to go on now than before.

What makes me think that the bride and groom in the group wedding photograph are relatives is that I also have individual and separate studio photographs of the same couple in their everyday clothes which seems to indicate that they were more than just friends of the family.

I have been slowly amassing photographs of nearly all the churches in this area for a clue and will hopefully be able to connect a church with one of the suggested vicars. If I manage to do that, then if need be I will pore over every marriage and every marriage witness at that church.

Thanks again

Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: Eastman on Saturday 28 November 09 00:07 GMT (UK)
What also intrigues me about this photograph is that I think the woman and the man on the right of the group are black, but what year was it taken? thirties or forties??
Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: Gillg on Saturday 28 November 09 09:34 GMT (UK)
Late 20s or early 30s, looking at the bride's dropped waistline and the buttoned shoes of the guest on the right.  Definitely not 40s.

Gillg

Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: Eastman on Saturday 28 November 09 22:37 GMT (UK)
Hi Gillg, Thank you for your advice on the years and the fashion, it all helps.
Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: Barbara.H on Sunday 29 November 09 15:15 GMT (UK)
I agree with Gill, definitely between the wars fashion. The couple on the right do look black, and maybe the child in front of them too? They would be a small minority in the 30s, Found this extract on a site about immigration
http://www.rootschat.com/links/07kl/
(scroll down to 'First World War and After' - not good - hope the family in your photo were treated better)

Eastwood, try emailing your photo to some of the local churches to see if they have old photos/parish magazines etc still in the building -  to compare mugshots of previous vicars. I contacted Rev. Ireland at St Peters a while ago with a marriage query and he was very helpful.   http://www.levenshulmechurches.com/

They have shifted the actual registers to Manchester Library now, but they might still have bits & pieces in the church.

Good link to the Crockford's site Ken, never knew that was around, thanks!

 :) Barbara

Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: 0rinoco on Sunday 29 November 09 20:54 GMT (UK)
I'm probably wrong, but, to me, most of the people in the picture have an Italian look about them, particularly the men with those hats. They just don't look English to me. My dad wore a trilby before the war, but I don't recall seeing hats of the style in the photograph.
Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: Eastman on Thursday 10 December 09 15:45 GMT (UK)
I have Just looked at the Manchester's Central Library online Catalogue at

https://librarycatalogue.manchester.gov.uk/

which, perhaps for other researchers, has a some parish magazines for churches in Manchester's suburbs on the shelf.

Search by keyword and type = Parish Magazine


Title: Wedding fashions at the V & A Museum
Post by: Eastman on Saturday 09 January 10 13:54 GMT (UK)
I have just found the following useful page on Wedding Fashion

http://www.vam.ac.uk/things-to-do/wedding-fashion/home

which does place my wedding photograph in the 1920's.


I have now applied  for a marriage certificate for a couple who got married in the 20's so this could be solved SOON.
Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: HOWMUCH on Friday 05 February 10 20:27 GMT (UK)
Hello Eastman
How are you doing with regards to the identity of the vicar ?
I cannot help you with the photograph and I hope I do not confuse the issue anymore but I thought that I would mention that I have in my possession a church magazine for St. George's church , Abbey Hey , Gorton , Manchester . The rector in September 1954 was Reginald Griffith HAYDEN . I wondered whether it could open any more lines of research . :-\
Eric
Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: Eastman on Saturday 06 February 10 00:30 GMT (UK)
Alas, the marriage record I obtained was for St Agnes Birch and the vicar at the time was Henry Norburn who carried out the wedding - and having obtained an image of Henry Norburn he does not resemble the vicar in my photograph.

Yet the marriage record was of a relative but I have no images of this relative.

I have also wondered if the cleric in my photograph could have been a curate assigned to St Agnes's, so sticking with this church for the moment, Manchester Library do have some parish magazines of St Agnes which I could look at for curates.

I think I need some luck and a few days to plough through back issues of the Evening News looking for the appointments of vicars and curates in the Longsight area with photographs!

Thanks for the name, it was George Hayden at St Clement's Grey Street, Longsight  but maybe he had a brother?

Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: emmsthheight on Saturday 06 February 10 09:55 GMT (UK)
Hi

I don't know if you could pick up any photo's from here, but by 1953, Rev Reginald G Hayden wasrector of St George Gorton, living atThe Rectory, Abbey Hey Lane.

An older man, but possibly more photo's available?

Emms
Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: emmsthheight on Saturday 06 February 10 09:57 GMT (UK)
Hi again :)

By 1953 also, Rev  Arthur Jn Henstock M A was just given as at 44 Daisy Bank Road 14.

Emms :)
Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: emmsthheight on Saturday 06 February 10 10:12 GMT (UK)
Hi

I hope you don't mind me butchering your photo, but I tried to see a bit more detail and skin tone.

I lightened it - probably too light for good tste, but to try and see whether there is some different skin tone, and at least one gentleman has.

I also lightened that group again to be sure and - hopefully made them a bit larger.

See what you think.

Emms
Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: Eastman on Saturday 06 February 10 10:30 GMT (UK)
From what I can gather, it is a 1920's wedding and the photographer is V Spencer, Longsight, so you wouldn't think it could be so hard to identify this vicar who for me is the key to this photograph.
Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: emmsthheight on Saturday 06 February 10 10:41 GMT (UK)
Hi

Just a couple of thoughts.  I think there's definitely some ethnic influence.  Also, to say these are photo's between the wars, they seem quite luxurious.  Flowers everywhere too, lilies in abumdace.

I wonder ifat least one of the families were merchants, importers, bankers or similar!

Also, if they were spending a large amount on their attire, there's a chance they were bang up to date.  Does that give us some ideas?  The trimmings, the layered skirt, the neat rounded hat tops with wide brims, the neat tucked wastes and belt, the square corners on the mens' jackets.

  Any clues, experts?  My Mum's family were tailors, so there were some less affluent but very fetching styles.  I will have a look for some dates.

Part of the building at least is brick, and loads of planting against oir near the wall.

Just some thoughts.

Emms
Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: emmsthheight on Saturday 06 February 10 10:44 GMT (UK)
The vicar, when you lighten it, has quite an ornate, pintucked front on his long gown.  His face is distinctive too.

I wonder if this weding is reported in the Manchester evening news or similar with a photo?

Emms :)
Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: emmsthheight on Saturday 06 February 10 10:51 GMT (UK)
Hi

He seems to have two studs or ends og a pin or something on a diagonal.

She has a very long, low veil and with the Italian/ hispanic?  West Indian? influence, is it definitely C of E not RC?

Emms :)
Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: Eastman on Saturday 06 February 10 10:55 GMT (UK)
?
Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: emmsthheight on Saturday 06 February 10 10:57 GMT (UK)
Hi Eastman, I'll try - you'll gather I'm not an expert at getting the bit and the size right.  Still looking ATat the writing.

Emms :)
Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: Eastman on Saturday 06 February 10 11:02 GMT (UK)
The detail of the photograph with perhaps writing?
Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: emmsthheight on Saturday 06 February 10 11:12 GMT (UK)
Not brilliant but here goes!

Is thios your writing, Eastman?

Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: emmsthheight on Saturday 06 February 10 11:18 GMT (UK)
Ah - definitely not your writing - it looks as if it's a stamp or something.  I'll look at yours.

Emms
Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: Eastman on Saturday 06 February 10 11:24 GMT (UK)
Not what I meant but interesting and I've just enhanced it again!
Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: emmsthheight on Saturday 06 February 10 11:39 GMT (UK)
Hi

I think it's the same as I've got at the top Eastman, i'm wondering if it's a stamped watermark:

I think it is Rose Something round the outside but I was looking at the inside

Should be Stamp or similar on left plus is there writing in the brickwork?  Sch???

Got to go out, sorry.

Emms
Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: emmsthheight on Saturday 06 February 10 11:40 GMT (UK)
Hi You're better at this than me, Eastman!

I'll try again.  We'll get there!

Emms
Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: Eastman on Saturday 06 February 10 11:49 GMT (UK)
Another detail?
Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: Eastman on Saturday 06 February 10 11:55 GMT (UK)
emms, don''t stay in but do call back.

eastman
Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: Barbara.H on Saturday 06 February 10 13:10 GMT (UK)
Here's a vicar demonstrating how to wear clerical clothing:
http://www.kencollins.com/glossary/vestment-02.htm#plaincassock

He says:
"A Roman cassock has buttons or snaps down the front. An Anglican cassock is generally double breasted."

I suspect that clerical fashions change quite slowly. This one looks double-breasted to me i.e. nothing down the centre of the cassock.  Also considering the opening at the top (where the dog collar is visible), it's about the width of a double breasted wrap.  So possibly pitching for the Anglicans here?

As for affluence, the flowers and the ladies are certainly gorgeous, but the groom doesn't look as if he is used to dressing formally and posing for photos. I don't think he wears a suit very often. The groom and guests might just be wearing their Sunday best, and have splashed out on flowers for the occasion - or maybe they were florists!

 :) Barbara
Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: Eastman on Saturday 06 February 10 13:44 GMT (UK)
Barbara, thanks for the further information, this mystery just keeps on going.

Yes the vicar's cassock does seem to be double breasted with the button located as arrowed.
Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: Eastman on Saturday 06 February 10 23:04 GMT (UK)
Emms,

Your suggestion of an "ethnic influence" rang a bell and on the 1911 census the occupation of one of my great uncle's was an "African Merchants Clerk"!?

This has forced me to rethink things a bit as I know the photograph in question was saved by two sisters of this uncle, so whilst he is listed as single and aged 33 in 1911 he might still have had a daughter or son who could have married in the twenties.

Reviewing the situation.

--------------------------------------------------------

Update

After carefully making a list of likely candidates, yesterday I looked up seven marriages local to Longsight with no luck, and with two of the brides listing no father !

So it's back to the vicar.

Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: Barbara.H on Friday 12 February 10 17:08 GMT (UK)
I was looking at the photo - yet again - and was trying to look at the wall of the church in Emms lightened up version.  I keep thinking it looks like St Peters on Stockport Rd, Levenshulme

I don't know how to capture an image off Street View & its probably not allowed anyway, but if you go to the junction of Barlow Rd and Stockport Rd, Levenshulme on google Maps, then change to Street View, point the view towards the church and zoom in.

The wall of St Peters has a stonework border round the edge and the wall in the photo looks a bit similar.

Thats the one that Rev Frank Iliff was at in 1929
 ???

Barbara
Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: Eastman on Friday 12 February 10 17:27 GMT (UK)
Hi Barbara,

Thanks. I have already studied the architecture of St Peter's which was on my list of possible churches but I will look again with Google Street View.

Curiously, St Peter's was the parish of the relative I had in mind for this wedding so I'm now thinking if the bride could have got married at another church but posed for the photograph outside her own parish church afterwards   ???

Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: Eastman on Monday 22 February 10 21:20 GMT (UK)
Still no progress. Parish magazines and 1920's newspapers did not go in for many images it seems.

Might try posting the image on Levenshulme Past and Present.
Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: Miranda1 on Monday 12 March 12 07:19 GMT (UK)
Hi, just idly playing and found this series of emails. My father was Reginald Griffith Hayden. He was Rector of St Andrews Ancoats from 1931-1938. I think his father was Re tour of Longsight but I do not think this is him. You may already have sorted this one out but it was fun to read. Also your reference to my friend Gay Sussex who is now back in Melbourne with me. regards Miranda1
Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: Eastman on Monday 12 March 12 11:32 GMT (UK)
Hi, Miranda,

Unfortunately I haven't identified this vicar yet, but you are just the kind of visitor I hope to read my post, as I do the very same thing now and then, idly browsing forums for extremely long shots just in case something turns up.

The thought remains  that someone else might have an old wedding photograph featuring this vicar but with his name  on the back!

A shame that Crockford's Clerical Directory didn't include portraits of each cleric.

I sometimes wonder if the 1930's were further back in time than ancient Egypt  for the difficulties involved in identifying these people.

A George Hayden (Rector) married my grandparents in 1912 at St Clements, Longsight, would this then have been your grandfather?

Eastman

Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: Miranda1 on Friday 12 April 13 09:27 BST (UK)
Sorry Eastman, I never responded to this but yes, George Hayden was my grandfather. I never met him although typical of the photos the time, he looked fierce!! Have you ever found any further answers re the cleric?
Title: Re: Longsight wedding?, do you recognise this vicar?
Post by: Eastman on Sunday 14 April 13 00:39 BST (UK)
Hi Miranda,

Thank you for replying, no I have not made any progress based on firm evidence, and can't discount your George, but I am considering whether the vicar in the photograph could instead have been a curate assigned to St Agnes, Longsight where I think the wedding took place.

So with reference to the following image which shows the "minister" from my photograph on the left and the said curate on the right (taken I believe in a later year), if you allow for the passage of time, the different lighting and angle of each head, plus the receding hairline of the man on the right and the glasses which make his eyes seem larger than they are, both men have a nose with a non-straight profile and slightly arched nostrils, indistinct eyebrows and cleft chins?

But I'm open to opinions on this view.

(http://www.cjones.talktalk.net/ministers.jpg)