RootsChat.Com
Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Topic started by: chinakay on Saturday 14 July 07 22:00 BST (UK)
-
My g-g-g-grandfather was born 1811/1812 in Dolwyddelan. I have certs and census data to support this and should, I suppose, be satisfied...but I'm greedy...I want to push it back another generation.
So I looked for Robert Ellis' birth in the IGI, and there it was! Oh, wait there's another one...What? Three of them, all born in Dolwyddelan in 1811, two of them baptised the same day.
Three sets of parents: Ellis Williams & Margaret, Ellis Roberts & Elin, and Ellis Holland and Judith.
Do I have a hope of sorting out this mess? By the 1841 there's only one Robert Ellis in Dolwyddelan, and his daughters are named Elin, Judith and Ann. Where do I even start trying to pick the right lot?
Cheers,
China
-
This is a rotter, isn't it? How thoughtless of Robert to give two of his daughters the same names as two of the possible mothers! ;D
Can't come up with anything immediately but will sleep on it. There must be some way. :-\
Monica
-
How thoughtless
My sentiments exactly.
Cheers,
C
;D
-
Hi Chinakay (and Monica!)
I am not very clear about the patronymic naming system - didn't realise it went on so late - so this might be a bit cock-eyed, but...
I had a look at the 1841 census to see whether any of the putative parents had survived that long. I found these:
1841
William ELLIS 58 (yes, I know it should be the other way round!) & Mrgt 56- farmers - have gdau Margt ROBERTS aged 1 with them (There is no Margaret with Robert in 1851, but this doesn't entirely rule them out if there is a Robert WILLIAMS lurking somewhere - but then wouldn't his daughter be WILLIAMS too?)
Ellis WILLIAMS is 78 and living with (son?) William WILLIAMS, who is a farmer (doesn't prove much either way)
Have you managed to find the siblings of the Robert ELLISes?
Have you found the other Roberts in 1851 to see what they have called their children etc?
Yours has further children and it might be possible to trace name patterns in later generations. It might also be possible to associate the possible parents with siblings in censuses.
Have you identified a marriage for Robert and Ann? There just might be father's names around that date. Failing that, siblings might have married after 1837 and their certs might be helpful.
Not sure that I am helping much here, but I am recommending that you widen your search to see whether there are clues to the parents elsewhere.
Will look forward to hearing about developments
kind regards, Arranroots ;)
-
A word of warning with the IGI in Wales:
pre 1812, the IGI appears to use the patronymic form regardless of whether it was in use or not, so some of your Robert Ellis's may well be just sons of an Ellis <something else>
I have had this problem a few times and it takes ages to sort out.
My Robert Ellis (with a brother John Ellis) was the son of Ellis ap John Robert :( Luckily, I had church records to check them.
Regards
Gadget
-
Hello again China
I agree with Arranroots as to the best way forward. You have presumably a copy birth certificate of one of the children which will provide mother's maiden name so that a search can be made for the wedding which may provide the father's name.
As far as patronymics is concerned then there is as Gadget says a possibility of it occurring and also from my experience. Of course with your Williams family Arranroots may be on to something.
One other thought is burials. It is possible that one of the children especially if they died young will be buried with grandparents. This happened with me in Dolwyddelan and took me into patronymics. I know from when I visited Caernarfon archives a few years ago that the MI's in St Garmon's church have been done although there is also another graveyard nearby and I am not sure about this. A copy of the former is available from Gwynedd archives. I may be buying it in a month or so and if you have not found out anything then perhaps you would send me an email to remind me to look.
best wishes
Peter
-
Hi all, you have given me much to think about!
I have ordered a copy of the Rowlands' Welsh Family History, which should be here soon...hopefully that will be helpful as well. Luckily I do know a bit about the patronymic naming system already.
So...
1. There is a possible set of parents in the 1841: Ellis and Judith Holland are alive and well. Their children seem to be: Hugh Ellis 1807, Hugh Ellis 1808, Robert Ellis 1811 and William Holland 1817. These are from the IGI batch #C090331, searched with Ellis as father's first name and Judith as mother's first name, no family name used. Then according to the census, there was also an Ellis 1823 and John 1826, and a granddaughter Judeth 1835.
2. Siblings of the other Roberts:
Ellis Roberts & Elin/Ellin/Elinor/Eleanor: seem to be Margaret 1797, Elin 1802, Gainor 1805, Jane 1808, Robert 1811 and Elizabeth 1814.
Ellis Williams & Margaret: Ann 1805, Owen 1808, Robert 1811, William 1813, Anne 1819, Ellis 1820, and Margaret 1831 (the afterthought :D)
3. Robert and Ann married about 1833, alas. There are two Robert Ellis/Ann marriages in the IGI, one in Llandegai and one in Penmachno, but both couples are still in place by the 1841 so it isn't either of them.
Robert and Ann named their children: Ellin/Elinor 1834, Judeth 1838, Ann 1841, Robert 1847, William 1850 and John 1854.
4. Robert and Ann lived at Pentre in 1841 and Fedw from 1851 to 1881. I'm assuming both names refer to the same place, Pentre-Tafarn-y-Fedw, a farm near Bettws-y-Coed.
5. Interestingly, Ann lived as a widow at Penrallt in 1891. I have a photo of her grandson's wife's mother, who also lived at Penrallt. There is a picture of this ancient Welsh lady at
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,236415.0.html
Some of the restores are amazing.
6. Anybody know if there is a naming tradition in old Welsh custom similar to the Scottish one, like the first daughter being named after the mother's mother or something like that? Cause it sure would come in handy... :P
Thanks for all your suggestions, I'll chew on them a bit.
Cheers,
China
-
Hi
Are you still interested in Robert Ellis, born 1811 at Dolwyddelan?
I believe that I have him in my family tree.
Hope to hear from you soon
cymraes
-
Well...this slipped through the cracks :( Hello cymraes, and a very belated welcome to Rootschat...sorry, but I didn't see your post.
I now believe Robert Ellis' father was Ellis Holland. Robert is listed as Robert Holland at FindMyPast.
If you make 2 more posts, you can send me a PM and we will talk about Ellises :)
Cheers,
China
-
Hello,
Good to hear from you.
Just to let you know that Fedw is a farm in Dolwyddelan where Robert Ellis and his wife Ann, lived. They are both buried at Sant Gwyddelan Church, Dolwyddelan.
Robert Ellis died 10.10.1885, 74 years old. Memorial Inscription 218
Ellis Holland ( my 5th x grandfather) died on 17.1.1856, 72 years old - gravestone photo.
Looking forward to hearing from you
Bye for now
cymraes2010
-
Hello cymraes, glad you found your way back here :)
Ellis is mine also. I think he was born in Llandrillo, Denbigh, but I am having a very hard time finding any parents for him. He just doesn't seem to be anywhere at all...and Holland is a more unusual name for Wales. Have you had any luck?
Thank you for posting the photo! Very nice to see it. I used to visit Dolwyddelan when I was young, and the church was quite literally in the back garden of the house where I stayed. But I had no interest in genealogy then, and wasted so much opportunity....I could have been searching for ancestors, and instead I was chasing lambs (a novelty to me) :P :)
How are you descended from Ellis? And have you translated the inscription on the stone?
Cheers for now,
China
-
Hello,
Ellis and Judith Holland had 6 sons, the fourth being my 4xgrfather William Ellis.
William’s daughter , Margaret Ellis (from his second wife, Jane ), born June 9, 1862 at Singrug, Dolwyddelan was married to DAVID WILLIAMS on 17 Nov 1883, at the LLANRWST Register Office.
Their daughter, JUDITH WILLIAMS was born on September 9, 1890 at CEFN GWYN EGLWYSBACH and died March 30, 1915 at DORFIL PLACE FFESTINIOG. She married ROBERT JONES WILLIAMS, Plas Ucha, Penmachno on August 13, 1907 at the LLANRWST Register Office. Their only son, OWEN was my grandfather, born at CAE GWYN, DOLWYDDELAN .
Here is the wording on the gravestone of Ellis Holland (1785-1856)
SANT GWYDDELAN DOLWYDDELAN MEMORIAL INSCRIPTION no.22
Coffadwriaeth am ELLIS HOLLANT, yr hwn a fu farw Ion; 17,1856 yn 72 oed.
Hefyd JUDETH, ei wraig, bu farw Ion; 21,1862, yn 80 oed.
Hefyd eu dau fab; HUGH, bu farw 1807, yn 1 fl oed.
JOHN bu farw 1850, yn 25 oed.
Hefyd, un wyr iddynt, ELLIS HOLLAND, mab hynaf ELLIS a CATHERINE HOLLAND, Fron, yr hwn a fu farw Gorphenaf 15fed, 1888, yn 34 mlwydd oed.
Translation:
“In Memory of wife ELLIS HOLLANT, who died Jan; 17, 1856, aged 72 yrs
Also JUDETH, his wife, who died Jan; 21, 1862, aged 80 years.
Also, their two sons; HUGH, who died 1807, aged 1 year.
JOHN, died 1850, aged 25 years.
Also, their grandson, ELLIS HOLLAND, eldest son of ELLIS and CATHERINE HOLLAND, Fron, who died July 15th, 1888 aged 34 years “
Ellis Holland seems to have rather a complicated background .. work-in-progress!
Best wishes for now
cymraes
-
Hi cymraes, thank you very much for the translation.
I'm from Robert Ellis, sometimes indexed as Robert Holland. He was born 1811 so was a little older than your William. They lived at Penamnen, whose stones I played on as a girl...I had no idea of the history I was climbing! :)
I don't have a cohesive tree yet...mostly just a sheaf of papers...but I believe Robert's daughter Judith married Robert Williams, who was the father of my great-grandfather Moses Williams. Moses and his family emigrated to Patagonia in 1911, and I have seen his grave there. A brown and dry land, it must have been such a wrench for them to leave Wales.
Cheers for now,
China
-
I fell upon this topic by accident, but am fortunate enough to have some information about the old families of Dolwyddelan.
Could this, written about 1837, be of any use to any of you:
"Fedw:
William Pierce, a widower, lived here. His wife was Ellen Evans. William was the son of Pierce William, Fedw. Ellen was ......The children were Alice, Gwen, and Ann, wife of Robert, Ellis Holland's son...... Many of the children of these families are living in the area".
Feel free to PM me if you want the bits I haven't typed here.
Also happy to check other addresses in Dolwyddelan for anyone.
-
Hi
Ellis Holland 1783-1856 is my 5Th great grandfather, I have also had problems in finding any evidence of his birthday in llandrillo. His father was a Major Holland that owned a manor house and land in Flintshire. Ellis himself was a military man in his younger days. I came upon some stories of him in the old welsh newspaper's, calling young men of dolwyddelan to arms to protect the villagers from bandits, this must have happened in the early 1800s, the newspaper was written in 1891.
Regards,
Llio
-
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3643698/3643703/22/
Another Ellis Holland who was probably in Dolwyddelan, about 1845.
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3561955/3561963/45/
1886 July 15, aged 34 years, Ellis, son of the late Mr Ellis Holland, Frondirion, Dolwyddelen.
-
Llio! Welcome to Rootschat! You'll find a wealth of information and help here...many knowledgeable people including some who have been very lazy in answering Ancestry correspondence :-[ :)
Hi wilcoxon, nice finds! I suppose the Ellis Holland in the first paper could have been the same one. "Our" Ellis lived until 1856.
The second one, the 1861 shows father Ellis b 1822 and son Ellis b 1852. How many Ellis Hollands could there be in one tiny village? Although, more Hollands in Wales than in Holland, I think I read somewhere... :P
Cheers,
China