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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: Ermintrude46 on Sunday 09 September 07 21:57 BST (UK)

Title: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: Ermintrude46 on Sunday 09 September 07 21:57 BST (UK)
We have long suspected there is gypsy blood in the family - a picture of my grandmother's sister taken in around 1910 shows she had a noticably darker complexion than my grandmother and my youngest daughter was diagnosed last year with Bechets syndrome which is found predominantly in those with ancestry from the area of the old Silk Road.  Now discovered that my grandmother's great-grandfather, Ambrose Burnsides was described variously as tinker, traveller and hawker in the parish records of St Oswald, Durham (early 1800s).  Do you think this means he was definitely of Romany extraction or is it just more likely or can I not draw this inference at all??
Ermy
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: suzard on Sunday 09 September 07 22:57 BST (UK)
Gypsies are believed to have originated in India and to have gradually migrated to the near east and Western Europe, reaching Scotland in the early 16th century. They generally travelled in family groups and were associated with professions such as hawking, pedling, acting , as tinkers and street performers and most common of all  as fortune tellers.
By the 18th century london and its environs hosted a reasonably large Gypsy population during the winter months. The area around Seven Deals in St Giles in the Fields is believed to have had a regular winter community, but the largest identified group is associated with Norwood in Surrey.

Romany (or Romani) is really their language-although the dictionary gives the following descriptions
Romany
1. Gypsy
2. Gypsies collectivelly
3. Indic language of the Gypsies, its various forms differing greatly because of local influences
4. pertaining to Giypsies, their language or their customs.

There is a book triology
Jessies Journey
Tales from the tent
Tears For a Tinker

by Jess Smith
her autobiography -the story of her wandering years on the road with the last of Scotlands travellers, hawkers and Gypsies
The 3rd book deals with her life when they "settled" in a council house.

Maybe this information may help you to make a decision on your Origins

Suz

Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: suzard on Sunday 09 September 07 23:07 BST (UK)
also dictionary

Tinker
A mender of pots, kettles, pans etc, usually an itinerant
Scottish, Irish English
a gypsy
any itinerant worker
a wanderer
a beggar

Hawker
a person who offers goods for sale by shouting his/her wares in the street or going from door to door; a peddler

Traveller
a member of any of various groups of traditionally itinerate people living especially in Scotland and Ireland

Suz
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: An65 on Monday 10 September 07 08:13 BST (UK)
Answer:

Not necessarily. But probably more often than not.
Not every Hawker was a Romany either.

Its also worth mentioning that not every traveller was a Romany - there were "Irish tinkers" as well, who travelled Englands roads.

Your comment "Ambrose Burnsides was described variously as tinker, traveller and hawker in the parish records of St Oswald, Durham"

Obviously suggests he was a traveller of some kind, whose winter base was most likely in Durham. Ambrose is a name often seen amongst the Gypsies and travellers, but of course again, not exclusively so.

I would suggest you try and find this family on the census, and see where they lived and their occupations and family ties. The Rom liked to inter-marry and keep their bloodlines pure, so their family links are often the biggest clue of all.

Good luck.


Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: An65 on Monday 10 September 07 08:57 BST (UK)
Ive had a wee look on the Census, and found Ambrose Burnside of Durham, a Hawker in 1891. I also found him with wife Isabella in 1861 still a Hawker in Durham. I am assuming you already have these - So I thought who was Isabella?

Ambrose Burnsides married Isabella Gordon Jan-Mar 1849 Easington Durham GRO Ref: 114/24

Ambrose gave his place of birth in the census as Yorkshire


There was an Ambrose Burnside baptised at Deighton By Northallerton Yks 05.07.1829 s/o Edward Burnside and Sarah Waddington. (This is taken from the IGI which of course is not a fully comprehensive list, so its possible this isnt your Ambrose. I think it is though - see below!).

Now Edward Burnside and Sarah had a bundle of kids at Guisborough, which is where Ambrose thought he was born according to the 1861 census (a nice big clue there).

Mary c.12.10.1831
Benjamin c.07.11.1834
Sarah c.14.03.1840
Isabella c.19.01.1843
Joseph c.06.06.1846

So I thought, what are the others occupations?

Benjamin married Dinah/Diana Lindsley and lived at Chester le Street, Durham, where he was also described as a hawker.

This led me to find Edwards family at Guisborough in the 1851 census:

Edward Burnsides 50 Lic Hawker Tackley? Durham
Sarah 47 Bradford Yks
Mary 17
Benjamin 15
John 12
Sarah 10
Isabella 7
Joseph 3 all born Guisborough.

Interestingly, next door are a few Wilsons described as Tinker/Tinman as well as an Isabella Clark and a Bridgett Moss, Vagrants.





Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: jax on Monday 10 September 07 12:56 BST (UK)
I found this site recently

http://www.romanygenes.webeden.co.uk/

also am a member of Romany & Traveller Family History Society

http://www.rtfhs.org.uk/

Hope you find some clues  ;D
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: An65 on Monday 10 September 07 20:37 BST (UK)
RomanyGenes is a fabulous site. She does however, centre on the South - My own site (seraphim angel have a look in the resources link) centres on the midlands. I know for a fact I have absolutely ZERO on the Burnsides on mine.


All I can really say is this: Kushti Bok! Good luck.

It would appear your family fraternised by the closesness of the Wilsons and Clarks, with some rom families. Whether your own were Rom or Irish or something else Im truely not sure.

I havent seen such names before myself, but that doesnt mean much. Ive seen such names as Sagey Heron and Righteous Gray living in houses as Gorjas sa early as the 1850s, so you never know.

Keep searching xxx


Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: redred28 on Monday 10 September 07 21:29 BST (UK)
HI all,

Burnside is a gypsy name. We have Burnsides in our family but I havnt started the research yet !!

My Grandmother Margaret (Peggy)Burnside (her father was Jim (James)) married James Wilson.

There may well be a connection.
Just thought i would letyou know
thanks
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: An65 on Tuesday 11 September 07 07:32 BST (UK)
Hi Red, Thanks for that, on the strength of what youve added, I have gone back  to that 1851 record and picked up the names of those Wilsons, as they may well be related by the sound of things.

Guisboro 1851:

Ann Fielding 40 Lodging House Keeper Shelton Yks

with lodgers:

Michael Murray 42 Vagrant Not Known
Henry Moss 24 Vagrant Not Known
William Swainston 44  Vagrant Not Known
James Wilson 33 Vagrant Not Known
John Clark 42 Vagrant Not Known
James Wilson Jr 6 Vagrant Not Known
George Clarke  7mo Vagrant Not Known
Isabella Clark 33 Vagrant Not Known
Bridgett Moss 23 Vagrant Not Known
Eliza Wilson 29 Vagrant Not Known

//

John Wilson Sr 49 Tinker/Tinman Guisboro
Mary Wilson 59 Guisboro
Maurice Wilson 19 Guisboro
John Wilson Jr  16 Shoemaker (app) Guisboro

//

The above Edward Burnsides & Family.
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: redred28 on Tuesday 11 September 07 12:23 BST (UK)
Hiya Ann
Just to add for your own info MOSS is also a well known traveller name that my Winter's married into

thanks for your own info
Red

Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: An65 on Tuesday 11 September 07 17:49 BST (UK)
Ah! Those elusive Winters again ;)
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: Rachel Bowen on Wednesday 24 October 07 11:16 BST (UK)
Hello, Just a note about the origin of the term Gypsy.
In French Gypsies are often called 'les Egyptiens' or female "les Egyptiennes" - example - Esmeralda in "The Hunchback of Notre Dame" .

Just because someone was of a travelling occupation, anywhere, does not indicate that people were necessarily Gypsies. Some were, some were not.
 Don't know if this helps, but it is another bit of info.
Sincerely,
Rachel Bowen
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: hollow on Wednesday 31 October 07 18:29 GMT (UK)
My family surname is Lee. My grandad and his brothers could all speak romany.
But I have gone back to 1810 and not one of my ancestors was listed as traveller or hawker. Though one thing we all have in common is that our holidays have been spent under canvas. My dad couldn't stand to sleep in anyone's  bed that wasn't his own. He and his own father told him they came from gypsy's but I have no proof of this. But how did they know the romany language.
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: whpool on Thursday 01 November 07 04:50 GMT (UK)
Hi hollow,
I have 'Lee' in the family side - be they travellers or gypsies.    If you could let me have a few names and the area of the country  it might help to swap some info.
Also the Burnsides - there's still a big family of them up in the north.
whpool
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: hollow on Thursday 01 November 07 14:43 GMT (UK)
The earliest I have got back to is 1810 when JOHN LEE was born in Calow
Derbyshire. His parents were WILLIAM LEE and mother MARTHA. I have not found any marriage for them in the same area.There is a marriage in Eastwood Nottinghamshire for a WILLIAM LEE and MARTHA WYSELL. He had a brother called WILLIAM born 1815 at Calow. John is then found in 1835 marrying NANCY DAVY in Rotherham. They were then in Sheffield in the 1841 census. Their children were all born in Sheffield and families that came after were also in Sheffield.JOHN'S occupation on the 1841 census says turnipman. The area they were living had farms.He then went into the steel works. I remember my dad telling me that his parents took him to see his grandparents and they were in Sheffield but living in a caravan. The area was known for gypsies staying there. But I found them having a house in the census. It is so confusing but a aunt and uncle on my dad's mum side also told me that the Lee's came from gypsies.
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: An65 on Friday 02 November 07 19:58 GMT (UK)
Now Lee is a very well known Romany name. The Lee family is huge - and two books were written about them .....
Moderator Comment:  References to a living person removed at that person's request.


You might like to check these photos for any family similarities:

http://sca.lib.liv.ac.uk/collections/gypsy/photoind.htm#Appleby

Scroll down to find photos of Lees and Coopers
Ithal Lee, Julia Lee, and Oliver Lee.
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: An65 on Friday 02 November 07 20:00 GMT (UK)
Oh I should have given you the names of the books -

Moderator Comment:  References to a living person removed at that person's request.


Best of Luck with your searching!
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: hollow on Saturday 10 November 07 15:28 GMT (UK)
Hi, Thank you for your help. Will try to see if I can get those books from our local library or if they can obtain it for me.
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: rebekahm28 on Thursday 24 January 08 20:51 GMT (UK)
I believe in the old ways, a true Romany would be dark.  Tinkers were/are Irish, and dont have the history or cultural heritage of Romany.  And they speak Cant, wheras we speak Romanes.
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: I forget on Sunday 16 March 08 17:06 GMT (UK)
Hi there,

I hope you don't mind me giving my 2p worth on the 'Tinker/Romany' question.

IMHO the way the travelling people were recorded as 'Hawkers, Tinkers' etc, bears no relation to what sort of Travelling people they were.  The only thing it tells you is that they were travellers. 

As has been said, the Romany peoples did tend to marry within their 'own kind' so the clues may lay within your ancestors names, but also if you can speak to older members of the family and find out whether there were any Romany speakers.  Also their darker appearance may be a clue. 

On looking at the photos of my mums side the Harris's were all quite short in stature, dark haired and brown eyed.  Where-as my grandfather has blue eyes and was always referred to as a 'showman' not a gypsy (though as a 'general dealer or hawker' in official documents), so I suspect there may be Irish or similar on that side, but I don't know.   

My mother always said that the travelling communities had a 'class' system almost like house dwellers and that Romanies were the 'top'.  And true gypsies spoke Romany. 

However, she never lived on the road,  so I don't know how true what she said was.  It was certainly what she was told and experienced when she visied relatives living in vans on various sites.

Good luck with your search
cindy
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: rebekahm28 on Sunday 16 March 08 19:01 GMT (UK)
Thats true Cindy, and that class system still applies today.  I know some people may not agree with it, but most Romany folki have quiet lives and bother no-one; so when a lot of trouble has been caused by other 'gypsies', Romany folk hate getting the blame.  The gorja's (non gypsies) and especially the newspapers lump all travellers together.
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: ROMANYGENES on Monday 17 March 08 12:03 GMT (UK)
:) For reference the books referred to , can be found in several Libraries all of which are public ? just Google them.
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: social-butterflies on Wednesday 19 March 08 19:42 GMT (UK)
evening to all,
thought i to would add my bit!!!!
yes indeed, (*) books are on sale again through romany genes ( a fantastic site, full of great info, photos and quick wit with fellow travellers/romany ancestors/descendants.) i have just ordered the books and they are really informative. they have been a real help to me as i have alot of mixed romany's in my tree.
as to the ''class system'', my nan always said there was a difference between ''real romany's'' and the irish travellers. all my family spoke ''the lingo'' as my old nan would call it but through the generations we have spoke it less and less. although us girlies always use it when we are out and we dont want others to hear...not that we know that much. not like our ancestors.
in our family we have a mixture, so to speak. most dark haired, dark eyed and quite a few with ''curly''. while the others are blonde and blue eyed but alot are short, no point saying stout or anything else, they are short. plain and simple. !! LOL. ;D
and i agree with the families marrying their own kind, most of my ancestors were cousins. seems odd but was the norm for all of them. :-\
amanda


(*) Moderator Comment:  References to a living person removed at that person's request.
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: honey-roma88 on Wednesday 19 March 08 20:22 GMT (UK)
I believe in the old ways, a true Romany would be dark.  Tinkers were/are Irish, and dont have the history or cultural heritage of Romany.  And they speak Cant, wheras we speak Romanes.

My Romany ancestors were predominantly VERY dark. This is my gg grandmother's sister Charlotte Putland (with her non-Romani husband Johnny Holland) who is just a bit more than half Romany, all her siblings were just as dark.

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t226/honeysett88/00001.jpg

My mum and dad got their blood tested recently and my mother was 1/6th pure Indian, 30something percent south-eastern european, 40something percent northern european, and a little native American (which is pretty obvious when you look at certain family members but how it got there is beyond me since we are English - although those particular ancestors are from port areas). My dad was 40something percent southeastern european, 30something percent northern european and a 10th Indian. Both were about 10% Middle Eastern.

My mum has a skin condition which they say is from south-eastern european blood, she also has a ridge along the back of her skull (as does my father's mother) which is called the Anatolian ridge I think which also suggest Turkish blood.

My father's mother nicknamed Blackie as a baby
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t226/honeysett88/00001-1.jpg

My great, great grandmother
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t226/honeysett88/00002.jpg

My sister
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t226/honeysett88/00004.jpg

My great, great grandfather
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t226/honeysett88/00001-3.jpg

My great grandfather
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t226/honeysett88/00001-2.jpg

My great, great grandfather
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t226/honeysett88/00011.jpg

I think the wide, flat cheekbones are another feature of Romany-blooded folk. Bizarrely a lot of my Romany ancestors had no eyebrows...I think that is just a family quirk though.  ;D
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: social-butterflies on Wednesday 19 March 08 20:39 GMT (UK)
hello honey-roma 88
how lucky are you to have all those wonderful photos. :)
they all had eyebrows!!!lol.
but you can see how lovely and dark their hair/eyes are. i bet they had beautiful olive coloured skin.?
a.
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: honey-roma88 on Wednesday 19 March 08 20:43 GMT (UK)
hello honey-roma 88
how lucky are you to have all those wonderful photos. :)
they all had eyebrows!!!lol.
but you can see how lovely and dark their hair/eyes are. i bet they had beautiful olive coloured skin.?
a.

Ha! yes most of them did...Jane in my avatar photo didn't and neither did Cecil. Julia Putland definitely had olive skin (my gg grandmother) and my grandmother always said her hair was almost blue-black although you can't see that in photos.

It looks like that have tried to draw Cecil some eyebrows in this one. ;D
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t226/honeysett88/00001-4.jpg


Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: social-butterflies on Wednesday 19 March 08 20:53 GMT (UK)
see what you mean  ;)
nothing like family to put a smile on your face.!! however its done.
a.
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: hijimhere on Sunday 15 February 09 08:57 GMT (UK)
I am olive skinned and most of my brother's and sisters are not quite as olive but they are dark...is there any source of information on the theory of orgins, a book or study? ----I was often told I look spanish and when I did visit spain local people would start talking to me in spanish as they thought I was a local.

I have though about having a dna test where they can atribute the area your ancestors  probably came from but wouldn't know how to go about it.
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: social-butterflies on Sunday 15 February 09 09:55 GMT (UK)
Funny that you say that as i have just started looking into it myself. try this link for more info. its a DNA  study for rom's


http://www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=RomnchelYDNA&code=H75436

Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: shaneooo on Tuesday 28 April 09 00:41 BST (UK)
Gypsies are believed to have originated in India and to have gradually migrated to the near east and Western Europe, reaching Scotland in the early 16th century. They generally travelled in family groups and were associated with professions such as hawking, pedling, acting , as tinkers and street performers and most common of all  as fortune tellers.
By the 18th century london and its environs hosted a reasonably large Gypsy population during the winter months. The area around Seven Deals in St Giles in the Fields is believed to have had a regular winter community, but the largest identified group is associated with Norwood in Surrey.



I have seen refernence to what could be called gypsies, refered to as swarthy horsemen from the 16th century, it is believed that they travelled this way following armies and suppliying them with horses and theire women supplied food. earlier references refer to the wandering irish, i think this is from the12th century, there are some areas of spain that can roma can speek cant as well as romanes. i will try to find where i got my referance from and post.
kushti bok. shane
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: JaneyJ on Tuesday 05 May 09 23:34 BST (UK)
Hi Honey,
You are so lucky to have such wonderful photo's of your family.
My Grandma JANE YOUNG, was a "Romany" not a "Tinker" as my Mum would insist, (definitely a class thing) ;)

She too had blue/black hair which reached to her waist until the year before her death, when it was believed it took her strength and was cut short, much to my Grandad's sorrow.  For years my Aunt kept the hair and swore she could smell her Mother from it, unfortunately she only had son's and I believe it was lost when she died.

It's true that the families intermarried and the same names come up time after time, mine are all from the north of England and Scotland.

Incidentally my Grandma Jane married out and had to run away from home to do it, her brothers made my Grandad (John Parkinson) life hell for a while but they came round eventually.

Oh the tales out there, forever fascinating.
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: rebekahm28 on Wednesday 06 May 09 20:25 BST (UK)
Is there anywhere we can post our photos of gypsy ancestors?
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: Berlin-Bob on Wednesday 06 May 09 20:29 BST (UK)
Photo topics are usually on the TOTB.
After 10 pages (150 messages) the topic is locked, and you can continue with a new topic.
Topics are deleted 30 days after the last entry.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,239080.0.html

Bob
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: cnorris on Thursday 22 April 10 00:18 BST (UK)
Hi Cindy :o)

I was so excited to see your message hoping maybe you help me with some information. I have been trying to find out about my mothers family who were also Harris' living in the early 1900s in lower gornal, Dudley (my great grandmothers name was Tamar Harris).  They were of romany descent and looked very much how you described your Harris family as being shorter with black hair, brown eyes very handsome especially the men.  Where about in the midlands were your Harris family living.  My Harris' were supposed to be as I have been told 'wellknown' or 'famous' but i am still trying to find out what for.  Is it possible to see your Harris family photos to see if there are any resemblances? I look forward to your reply!!! Cheers, Catherine, NEW ZEALAND.
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: I forget on Thursday 22 April 10 10:40 BST (UK)
Hi Catherine,

I've sent you a pm about the Harris's.  Will need to exchange some more info. 

 :)

Cindy
Title: Re: Wednesfield Heath 1861 census Travelling Braziers
Post by: Kaliannan on Wednesday 06 July 16 13:25 BST (UK)
The transcript for Wednesfield heath travellers families might be of interest to someone.

Phil
                           
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: mike4301 on Sunday 31 July 16 12:06 BST (UK)
Not sure if my Hall/Bradley family were Romany or not. In Manchester they did jobs like Marine store dealer and Ragbone man and later greengrocers. They kept horses and my mum remembers visiting caravans as a child with her grandad. My gt grandfather and his brother both had dark complexion on their WW1 war records. They came from Tipton and Sedgley area originally.Would love to find out more and am still searching. Another name connected was Tolley ? thanks Michael
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: Steve G on Sunday 31 July 16 15:23 BST (UK)
Michael; Hall absolutely definitely is a name found on Romani Gypsys. Dunno about the other two. Have a sniff around ye Hall's. What they did. Where they did it. With whom. Most of all; Who they married.

And, yes; Settled Gypsys are buggers for fruit and veg'.




Edited to add: Why in gods name did I originally call you " Tom "? Where the hell did That come from?!  Sorry about that. Hope it didn't lead to too much confusion  :-[

Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: rebekahm28 on Tuesday 16 August 16 22:10 BST (UK)
Oh, lots of Tolley's in Headington quarrey, you can read lots about that.
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: polomint on Tuesday 24 January 17 22:57 GMT (UK)
Way back in my family tree I have a female ancestor whose forename was Vashti, I've never come across it before but always thought it could be a Romani name. Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: Steve G on Tuesday 24 January 17 23:02 GMT (UK)
Polomint; I'd dare to suggest that our Cathay_B would be ideally placed to give a full response on that one  ;)
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: rebekahm28 on Wednesday 25 January 17 15:16 GMT (UK)
It's a Romany gypsy name and also found in Israel. I have vashdi's from headington quarrey in Oxford in my tree.
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: polomint on Wednesday 25 January 17 15:44 GMT (UK)
Thank you Rebekah, I always thought it might be. I don't have a maiden name for her or any other information but the branch of the family she married into was in Oxfordshire, North Moreton.
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: youngtug on Wednesday 25 January 17 19:00 GMT (UK)
It's a Persian name. Queen Vashti in the book of Esther in the bible.
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: polomint on Wednesday 25 January 17 19:45 GMT (UK)
Maybe it was just an Old Testament name popular at the time, like Leah which was my grandmother's name. Although I quite like the idea of the Romani connection.
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: Sue Stacey on Thursday 02 February 17 11:39 GMT (UK)
I'm trying to research my family history on my mothers side. My mum has always said that we have Romany links and there is some connection to a Queen of Gypsies. When I was younger if a Gypsy came to the door they would recognise her as she opened the door!  The only information I have is that my great grandmother, who was supposed to be Romany, was Annie Hadwin from Morecambe born July 1875. She was married to Charles Halsall, who apparently was a clown, though I can't find anything about him. They lived in Southport in 1900's onwards. In the 1930s they appeared to adopt or look after a William Healy Holland, born 1925 but I can't find where he originated from and that's another story!! Annie's parents were David Hadwin and Jane Smith (born in Kendal 1837) . They lived in Cheapside Morecambe in the 1870's. Jane Smith's parents were James Smith and Jane Wilson. James Smith was apparently an Ostler. There are obviously many Smith's but the only one that appears to link around Kendal was a James Smith in Milnthorpe who worked as an Ostler at The Cross Keys inn. There is also a Jane Wilson who's father could have been John Wilson, a clogger in Kendal. There is a link with the Smiths and the Bindloss family in Milnthorpe who were very wealthy and had numerous pack horses for their trade.
The odd thing is that my mum took a massive interest in horses when I was younger and my son desperately wanted to learn to ride when he was younger and is now having lessons in his 20s.
I would be so grateful if anyone recognises anyone from this information. Thank you
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: Steve G on Thursday 02 February 17 15:53 GMT (UK)
Hadwin, Halsall, Holland, Hadwin, Smith, Wilson, Bindloss.

I would be so grateful if anyone recognises anyone from this information. Thank you


Hmm ..... Sue; The three names I've highlighted would stand out, like a smack in the mouth, to Anyone. But, they also, largely, happen to be among some pretty common names anyway  :-\ It's awkward.


So, I consulted The Book Of Bob ~ See the house under my avatar. Nope. As I thought. Nuffn.

Crazy bit though? 'Just because'; I ran a check on " Stacey " 1891 - 1909. Hampshire.  ???

That set the old Twilight Zone music going, in my head.

Personally though? I'd just concentrate on the usual, good old finger tip search, backwards. Don't be blinkered by focusing on what ye don't really know about. What ever will be will be. Genealogical detective work needs to remain a Science. There's no room for Art. Follow that paper trail  ;)

Good luck.

(Ooh, look! I sounded just like 'Marko', in " Taken " there, look!)
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: Ash Bradshaw on Thursday 09 February 17 23:26 GMT (UK)
Ah there's a few of us out there then . . .
My Gandads a Bradshaw ... I've found
Rowbottom
Hector 
Lott
Blackwell...

Any connection to the nomadic life styles of Roma or Navies. . . ?
Lost the thread in Wales some time around 1900 for Lott. . .
 
Received with thanks. . .



Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: Steve G on Thursday 09 February 17 23:42 GMT (UK)
Ah there's a few of us out there then . . .
My Gandads a Bradshaw ..... Any connection to the nomadic life styles of Roma or Navies. . . ?

 That's interesting, Ash. This thread just alerted me and, on seeing ye post, I just shrugged and reached for TBOB, again. I just do it by automatic response, these days  ;D

I'll be blowed! Bradshaw is indeed listed! I never knew that before. But then, I'm not a walking encyclopaedia of names used by Gypsys, down the ages. I just happen to possess one  ;)

But, yeah; " Bradshaw: 1771 - 1881 HUN, IRE, YKS. "

None of the other names are mentioned. But, there it is. Make of it what ye will.
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: Tynedale on Sunday 12 February 17 03:08 GMT (UK)
The following may be of some help re the distinction between Romany and Tinker.
The Illustrated Gaelic Dictionary points out that the Irish Gaelic word ‘ceaird’ denoted a tradesman, mechanic, artificer, travelling tinsmith.
A worker in light metal, i.e. tin, was a ‘tin-ceaird ’ which has evolved into ‘tinker.’
 There are a number of theories as to the origin of the Tinsmith (tinkers).  Until not long ago they were referred to as "Tinkers" this word referred to their occupation as Tinsmiths and metal workers and was derived from the Irish word (Ceard) (Smith) or tinceard (tinsmith).
Because of the Irish origin, a tinker as such has no connection with Romany.
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: Steve G on Monday 13 February 17 16:50 GMT (UK)
A worker in light metal, i.e. tin, was a ‘tin-ceaird ’ which has evolved into ‘tinker.’

Excellent! Thanks, Tynedale. I love a bit of etymology and that's one I'd never even stopped to think too hard about before.

Good post  :)
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: panished on Tuesday 14 February 17 20:40 GMT (UK)
  I just think the er in tink.....er is just the same as when you say I write, it then can be said you are a writer, 

this is  just the way we use language, you can also say I have been tinkering about, that means doing something in a small  unstructured way, so now you have ing, as well as er, as in tink..er...ing, this is just the way we use add ons to shorten a longer sentence to portray our thoughts
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: kassejayne on Sunday 26 March 17 13:31 BST (UK)
Quite a few of my family have the dark skin and ebony eyes. my grandmother was a Roberts who's family came from Bethesda. she and some of her brothers and sisters were quite dark, my granddad called her his Hiawatha. I have heard of the black Welsh and the Black Irish ......have any of you heard this before.
on my dads side of the family The Riley's were also dark but not as dark as the Roberts side of the family .....a couple of generations back one uncle Charles Smith was listed as tin smith he was supposed to have been born in Newcastle 1867 but cannot find a record for him and his father Henry Smith is recorded on my great grandmothers marriage cert as being a well sinker......having a lot of trouble pinning this chap down as well. I know his wife Lucy came to st Helens and is on the 1881 census with her daughter Lucy and son Charles Smith but Henry is not with them.
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: Steve G on Sunday 26 March 17 16:50 BST (UK)
Black Irish ......have any of you heard this before?

Black Irish (http://www.ireland-information.com/articles/blackirish.htm)

Kassejayne; I wish I could show you my mate, Tony! As Irish as Co. Leitrim. His hair is jet black. His eyes and skin are dark brown!  :o And, I mean dark! Guy's a complete anomaly.

So, yeah, I guess He must be one of these " Black Irish " types. Look at google images and it's laughable! Load of pale people with light brown hair!

Don't know where that leaves us. But, there it is. Don't be put off by a glimpse at a few celebrity pictures, on google. The real deal drinks in my local.
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: Tynedale on Sunday 26 March 17 22:28 BST (UK)
Hi Kassejayne & Steve G.,
re Black Irish.           this link:  https://owlcation.com/stem/Irish-Blood-Genetic-Identity

offers some insight re black haired/dark or swarthy skinned people of Irish descent. There is a portion:
entitled: Who Are the "Black Irish"?
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: Steve G on Sunday 26 March 17 23:37 BST (UK)
Tynedale; Being brutally honest? I was a little Disappoint there  :-\ The bulk of it was just what was said on the link I'd already posted.

Then, the writer appeared to go off on a somewhat personal fetish of a thing about Basque people? The first stuff had somewhat cooled my own passion for the whole, I'm afraid. Thus, I only really skimmed over the stuff below.

Dunno. I was only really offering an anecdotal response to Kassejayne. Primarily because they'd touched on something / one very real, to me.

Interestingly; I was about to add something there, to the effect that I wouldn't dare approach Tony, about his weird appearance. Let alone trying to get samples of his blood, or what ever. I don't know him That well. And he's a bloody Giant of a man!!!  :o

Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: sallyyorks on Monday 27 March 17 03:48 BST (UK)
"Tinker" is an old English word.
It appears in Shakespeare and in old English songs and ballads. There are also roads named "Tinkers Road" and Lanes across the country along with many named "Gypsy Lane". It was someone who mends pots and pans and the word probably comes from the noise this made, "tink tink". Often a tinker was itinerant and so it would probably have been a Romany occupation too, like a scissor grinder or chair mender. Though not all tinkers would have been Romany.
The word was used in Ireland too but it stayed around longer because Ireland didn't industrialise in the same way England did and so the occupation was still prominent in rural areas and the word stuck around longer. Irish Travellers are ethnically Irish and not Romany.

The term 'Black Irish' and a supposed 'Basque' connection, are American urban myths.
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: sallyyorks on Monday 27 March 17 04:09 BST (UK)
...I have an unusual English surname in my tree. One of the earliest records I found is a burial recorded in a Staffordshire parish register on the 19th June 1626. It states the name and then an occupation/or a notation "the Tynker".
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: kassejayne on Monday 27 March 17 09:35 BST (UK)
I would love to have one of those ancestry D N A tests, has anyone had one done.
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: Steve G on Monday 27 March 17 20:46 BST (UK)
kassejayne; That'd really be a subject for a whole, other bunch of threads. Here (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/ancestral-family-tree-dna-testing/) would be a good place to start, perhaps?

I'd probably throw the money at it myself, just for the craic. Only, I'd need the swabs from my sister. She's in another country. We're never going to meet again. And, being absolutely truthful? If I didn't see it done and send them off myself? I'd just always have that sneaking doubt, in the back of my mind.

This is no disrespect to my sister. It's like I'll never give another person a letter, to post for me. If it never arrives .....
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: Steve G on Monday 27 March 17 20:48 BST (UK)
It states the name and then an occupation/or a notation "the Tynker".

 That is a belter, Sally! I'd love to know what went on, behind that one  :)
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: sallyyorks on Monday 27 March 17 22:30 BST (UK)
It states the name and then an occupation/or a notation "the Tynker".

 That is a belter, Sally! I'd love to know what went on, behind that one  :)

From
Milwich
Staffordshire, Codsall register
William Bruerton the Tynker burial 19th June 1626

Many of the Bruerton/Brueton/Brewertons seem to have been metal workers and some had the passed on forename Theophilus. Which led me to this 
https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3Atheophilus~%20%2Bsurname%3Abruerton~%20%2Bbirth_place%3Alondon~%20%2Bbirth_year%3A1500-1650~
Theophilus Bruerton
Christening Date   06 Oct 1574
Christening Place   ST LAWRENCE JEWRY AND ST MARY MAGDALENE MILK STRLON,LONDON,LONDON,ENGLAND


Also this. Note "vagabonds commonly called Egipcians" [Gypsies]
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/middx-county-records/vol1/pp219-225
Middlesex Sessions Rolls: 1594
23 April, 36 Elizabeth.—True Bill, that John Browne, Robert Ambrose, William Standley, Francis Brewerton and John Weekes, all late of London yomen, at Howneslowe in the parish of Heston co. Midd. were seen and found in the consort or society of vagabonds commonly called Egipcians, and that the same John &c. call themselves Egipcians, and that thus they feloniously did, continued and remained there and elsewhere in the same county for the space of a month, from 23 April 36 Eliz. to 24 May then next following.—John Browne and Robert Ambrose were at large; William Standley, Francis Brewerton and John Weekes put themselves 'Guilty,' and were sentenced to be hung. G. D. R., 21 June, 36 Eliz.
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: Steve G on Monday 27 March 17 22:53 BST (UK)
 :o :o :o Jesus Wept!!! Hung?! What, for being somewhere?!  :o

Sorry. I'm not too clever with this ancient history stuff. I know it has been punishable by death, just to be a Gypsy, back in the day. But, if that's what's happened here; What about the people they were found 'consorting' with?

Good lord, Yes! Just had a look in The Book Of Bob (http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n201/ptpc/BookofBob.gif) Sure enough; I reckon this would be the very reference he was working from!
So ..... What? Half of them got strung up, for admitting they'd stayed around a bit? Or what?

Forgive me; I'm somewhat wiped out by all this. Have ye actually managed to work out what went on there?
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: sallyyorks on Monday 27 March 17 23:03 BST (UK)
:o :o :o Jesus Wept!!! Hung?! What, for being somewhere?!  :o

Sorry. I'm not too clever with this ancient history stuff. I know it has been punishable by death, just to be a Gypsy, back in the day. But, if that's what's happened here; What about the people they were found 'consorting' with?

Good lord, Yes! Just had a look in The Book Of Bob (http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n201/ptpc/BookofBob.gif) Sure enough; I reckon this would be the very reference he was working from!
So ..... What? Half of them got strung up, for admitting they'd stayed around a bit? Or what?

Forgive me; I'm somewhat wiped out by all this. Have ye actually managed to work out what went on there?

The Middlesex Sessions Rolls record I linked was during the Elizabethan age. To be fair, Elizabeth is mainly known as tolerant. I think the crime was not to be a Gypsy, but more a crime to act like a Gypsy. I guess it would have been laws designed to encourage integration. It might seem harsh to us now, but the idea was to encourage immigrants to become "good Christians" and assimilate
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: Steve G on Monday 27 March 17 23:11 BST (UK)
Dear god. Just imagine if That was going on, after they released " Snatch "? Half the youth of england would be getting hung, strung and done.

'Mind you; I'll bet the east end would be a lot more recognisable, today, if ye had such laws. 'assimilate or swing'.

So, basically; Those guys were practically martyrs? That's some heave going!
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: sallyyorks on Monday 27 March 17 23:23 BST (UK)
Dear god. Just imagine if That was going on, after they released " Snatch "? Half the youth of england would be getting hung, strung and done.

'Mind you; I'll bet the east end would be a lot more recognisable, today, if ye had such laws. 'assimilate or swing'.

So, basically; Those guys were practically martyrs? That's some heave going!

Elizabeth took on a country that was deeply divided but she famously said "I do not want to make windows into mens souls"
Metal workers were needed and she was not particularly against immigration but what was expected was that immigrants became good christian followers of the established church, which was the Church of England.
If you notice in the judgement , it seems to suggest that the "Egipcians" mentioned had been given a probationary period to reform their "Egipcian" ways.
I am not trying to downplay what happened, just trying to put it into some kind of historical context.
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: youngtug on Monday 27 March 17 23:58 BST (UK)
Quote
It was therefore enacted that after 31st January 1555, any one importing Gypsies should forfeit forty pounds; that any Gypsy so imported who remained in England one month should be deemed a felon, and forfeit his life, lands, and goods, being also deprived of the privileges of a mixed jury, of sanctuary, and of "benefit of clergy," that is to say, ability to read was to be no bar to the proceedings.
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: sallyyorks on Tuesday 28 March 17 00:08 BST (UK)
Yet compared to the rest of Europe, was England so bad?
It wasn't that long ago (1850's?) that a Gypsy in some European countries would have been a slave and might have had their nose or ears cut off. Within living memory, in German territory, they might probably have been gassed to death. 
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: youngtug on Tuesday 28 March 17 01:04 BST (UK)
It looks like the men who were hung [reply #61]  called themselves "Egipcians" and stayed in the country longer than a month, therebye making themselves felons and subject to be hung.
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: youngtug on Tuesday 28 March 17 01:12 BST (UK)
Yet compared to the rest of Europe, was England so bad?
It wasn't that long ago (1850's?) that a Gypsy in some European countries would have been a slave and might have had their nose or ears cut off. Within living memory, in German territory, they might probably have been gassed to death.
Still hardly mentioned, probably half a million died at the hands of the nazi's.
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: Steve G on Tuesday 28 March 17 01:50 BST (UK)
Still hardly mentioned, probably half a million died at the hands of the nazi's.

Bit of a pet subject with me, YT.  I have quite the little book shelf here, of books about the Einsatzgruppen.

Ironically, I wouldn't mention it too much either, on here. I'd only be laying myself open to cry downs. Sod the numbers game.

(Look; Mod's? I just got some Really bad news, from, and about, an old and dear mate of mine. It's spreading  :(  So, my thoughts may be getting out of control, as I try to think of how to reply to him? Feel free to nuke me from outer space.)

'Funny' thing this all brings to mind? I was cruising google, one night. Came up with some European Gypsy giving an account of being in a cattle truck. During those times.

Only, it was written as he'd said it; In some pure dialect of Romanes. I got the gist of it. Couldn't really 'believe' that I was getting it right. Because of what I seemed to be reading.

 That this guys mate had some problem. And a nazi guard came up and shot him in the guts. That didn't go so well. So, then, this more experienced creep comes up and says; " Good grief! Don't ye even know how to Kill someone yet? Look. This is how ye kill them. " And puts one through the guys head.

I mean, FFS!

But, yeah, it's mentioned, out there. And, by the way: The next link provided a translation of the entire episode  ::) Could have saved myself a Lot of word mouthing and squinting.
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: youngtug on Tuesday 28 March 17 10:27 BST (UK)
Information on the subject; http://travellerstimes.org.uk/News/The-Gypsy-Holocaust.aspx
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: sallyyorks on Tuesday 28 March 17 22:49 BST (UK)
It was therefore enacted that after 31st January 1555, any one importing Gypsies should forfeit forty pounds; that any Gypsy so imported who remained in England one month should be deemed a felon, and forfeit his life, lands, and goods, being also deprived of the privileges of a mixed jury, of sanctuary, and of "benefit of clergy," that is to say, ability to read was to be no bar to the proceedings.

It looks like the men who were hung [reply #61]  called themselves "Egipcians" and stayed in the country longer than a month, therebye making themselves felons and subject to be hung.

I think that case (reply #61) was unusual and that the men were probably outlaws who had been causing some kind of serious trouble, one of them had previously been pardoned and the sentence, to be hanged, was not carried out. There are records of 'Egypcians' or 'jipsys' being given charity/alms/poor relief or just simply being moved on.
I suppose a lot would depend on how rigorous the local law enforcement was and some areas might be more tolerant than others. Having your fortune told was popular, Pepys mentions it in passing. If the 'Jipsys' provided a service, like metal working, news reporting from other areas, music or agricultural labour and did not become a financial burden on the parish, then the magistrates might be inclined to turn a blind eye.
Law enforcement changed to suit the times. If there was full employment - times were good and laws might not be enforced as strictly but if there was large scale unemployment, vagrancy and begging, (by anyone) then the authorities would be more likely to come down hard on it and actually enforce the law.
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: youngtug on Tuesday 28 March 17 23:28 BST (UK)
http://rombase.uni-graz.at/cgi-bin/art.cgi?src=data/hist/modern/six-to-eight.en.xml
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: Sandra dash on Friday 19 May 17 15:39 BST (UK)
My mother's side of the family had Romany in her.
Some how she could never settle in a house for long she ended up purchasing caravans some to rent out others we would spend the summer in then winter in the house.

She always told stories of her g. grandparents traveling to us we never took her serious till my DNA test results on ancestry arrived back.
48% Ireland
37% Europe West
15% other

Now I do believe her stories since following the family tree path.
Unfortunately she passed away years ago I now wish I had the opportunity to ask her more about the stories.
She definitely kept the tradition on with her love of antiques, cleaning every day, how strick she was with us girls inregards to our clothing boyfriends No, unless your getting married.

Her pride in home and her caravans specially her own one.
The temper she ruled with a iron fist yet she was only 5ft tall.

From doing the family tree I can now see that yes most of the family at points married cousins.
i also see a few times a aunt raising another family members child or children.

Looking back she did have the Romanian looks.
Title: Re: Tinker = Romany??
Post by: sallyyorks on Sunday 21 May 17 19:05 BST (UK)
My mother's side of the family had Romany in her.
Some how she could never settle in a house for long she ended up purchasing caravans some to rent out others we would spend the summer in then winter in the house.

She always told stories of her g. grandparents traveling to us we never took her serious till my DNA test results on ancestry arrived back.
48% Ireland
37% Europe West
15% other


Now I do believe her stories since following the family tree path.
Unfortunately she passed away years ago I now wish I had the opportunity to ask her more about the stories.
She definitely kept the tradition on with her love of antiques, cleaning every day, how strick she was with us girls inregards to our clothing boyfriends No, unless your getting married.

Her pride in home and her caravans specially her own one.
The temper she ruled with a iron fist yet she was only 5ft tall.

From doing the family tree I can now see that yes most of the family at points married cousins.
i also see a few times a aunt raising another family members child or children.

Looking back she did have the Romanian looks.

Hi Sandra
What a lovely photo. Do you think your mums ancestors might have been Irish Travellers?

I ask because it seems more likely that they may have been Irish rather than 'Romany'. It can be confusing because of the different terms, but 'Romany' does not have the same meaning as 'Romanian' (people from the country Romania) or Irish Traveller (a people who are from Ireland) .

Romany/Romani is a word that was/is often used to describe English or Welsh gypsies. They are related to other European gypsies. Different regions use different names, Roma or Kale, or Lovari for example, but they all come from the same people who migrated into Europe almost a thousand years ago. They had originally migrated from India.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people

Irish Travellers are originally from Ireland and not usually related to the above people, though like gypsies they often led a similar itinerant lifestyle. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Travellers

If you start a new topic, on this board, and give details of your ancestors names and places of birth, there are plenty of rootschat members who would help you to trace them further back and also find them in records you might not have seen yet.