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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Lucy2 on Thursday 04 October 07 04:54 BST (UK)

Title: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Thursday 04 October 07 04:54 BST (UK)
Hello

Can anyone help me with finding marriages for the following please ?

1)    Ada Elizabeth RICHINGS - born Collingwood, Vic. 1890

2)    James Arthur RICHINGS -   "           "                "    1891

3)    Hilda Florence RICHINGS - born W/BEAL
                     [Warracknabeal ?]                   .....     1895


Many thanks

Lu          :)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: ChristineR on Thursday 04 October 07 06:02 BST (UK)
I cannot find marriages in Victoria up to 1942.

Christine  :)

Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Thursday 04 October 07 06:41 BST (UK)
Hi Christine

Very many thanks for looking ~ much appreciated.


Lu      :)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: trish251 on Thursday 04 October 07 09:46 BST (UK)
Hi Lu  :)

I also checked and looked for any deaths for either the parents or the children - I could not find any mention of them (deaths to 1985) so it seems more likely that they have moved out of Victoria.

Trish
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: deeiluka on Thursday 04 October 07 09:50 BST (UK)
I've just checked out South Australia, and no sign of them here either.

.....dee
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Thursday 04 October 07 10:47 BST (UK)
Hello  there

By  the details on  the parents marriage

JAs Thos  RICHLINGS  born  in England

Ada HARRISON  Born in Tasmania

Could  they  have gone to Tasmania?

checked Qld  WA  and NSW  nothing  showing  up  and   James Richlings  who would  have been  of an  age  to fight  in  WW1 doesn't appear  on  the NAA

regards Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Thursday 04 October 07 10:57 BST (UK)
Hello  there

Found  them  in  England  on  the 1901 Census  at the Civil Parish  of Woodgreen  ST. Michaels  Burough of Tottenham Middlesex
living at 22 Woodfield Road

James Richings  Head M 37 Bricklayer Worker born Cambridge
Ada    "              Wife  F 38                                       Australia Melbourne
Ada Mary            Dau      11                                      do            do
Arthur                 son       9                                        do            do
Hilda                  Dau        5                                       do             do
Cyril                    Son       2                                        Middlesex Woodgreen


kind regards Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: trish251 on Thursday 04 October 07 11:35 BST (UK)
Hi Jenn

Well found  :)  :) - Interesting that it says Mum is born in Melbourne, because the marriage as you noted said Tasmania - I did look for her in Tasmania with no joy

Trish
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Friday 05 October 07 01:01 BST (UK)
Hi

   Trish  .....    Dee   ......    Jenn

Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful  !

Very many thanks to you all ~ and Jenn, the 1901 info is hugely helpful, so special thanks.

My first time on this AUS board ... you guys / gals are amazing - your efforts are much appreciated.

Kind regards

Lu
[in NZ]       :)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Friday 05 October 07 01:43 BST (UK)
hello there

is there any information you need?

regards jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Friday 05 October 07 12:22 BST (UK)
Hi Jenn

Thanks   :)         Based on the 1901 info, I've located James T. Richings in 1881 (UK) with his parents and siblings, so am now able to eliminate him.

My RICHINGS search is essentially an effort to trace the roots of my great-gran, Lily RICHINGS (b. 1874), who along with her brother Thomas (b.c. 1868),  claim "Blenheim" as their birthplace.    [I'm presuming "Blenheim, NZ" ~ there is though a Blenheim near Toowoomba ? ? ?]    Their parents were Thomas RICHINGS, a butcher, and Annie (nee HEASMAN).    Over several years I've done exhaustive searches, BDM / electoral rolls etc. / tried variant surname spellings  .... all the usual   ... to no avail.   There are no NZ birth records for Lily, Thomas (or for a James RICHINGS b. c. 1890 - who purports (in info on his Army file), to be their NZ-born nephew).    Similarly, NO death records for the parents.

Only a "handful" of RICHINGS ever came to NZ  ~ mine probably got in "through the back door" ~ can't find them on any passenger lists!      I've searched UK records also, as best I can - again no luck.       I'm thinking I now have to turn my attention back to AUS and I guess it would be wise to start a new topic for this search ?    (Any ideas / thoughts, most welcome) :

Again, thanks for your help and interest, shown.

Kind regards

Lu       
[in NZ]
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Friday 05 October 07 21:23 BST (UK)
Hello  there

So  you  have  a  certificate of some kind  for this brother and sister I am assuming?  in  New Zealand.

They could  have come from  Blenheim  in  the uk  or  even  in europe  I  am  thinking.  Will  have a  look around  based  on  the  parents names?

Did  you  find  anything on their  parents in NZ

kind regard jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Saturday 06 October 07 02:50 BST (UK)
Hi Jenn

Yes, (NZ) marriage / death / probate-will  records for Lily ; [marriage / divorce record / probate-will, for brother Thomas] - all these certs. are very consistent with their "facts".

Nothing whatsoever in NZ records / electoral rolls etc. for their parents (Thomas and Annie) - NO deaths,  NO re-marriages etc. etc.

The NZ Army file for the nephew James RICHINGS offers little - he doesn't name his parents, nor does he know where they were born !

I have though, JUST found this listing on the IGI - South Pacific index  ..... which "may" be the mother, Annie HEASMAN ? ? ?     (I hadn't seen this before).

" Ann Amelia HEASMAN - baptised St. James, Melbourne, VIC - 1846 .... d/o  William HEASMAN b. VIC abt. 1820, and Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE b. VIC abt. 1824 :  [Two siblings also bapt.  - Rachel in 1848 - died at Kew, VIC 1938;  and
William Richard bapt. in 1846 ] " :
[Interestingly, these family names also fit with Lily's children, Ivy Elizabeth COATES and William Heasman COATES, and with Thomas junior's only daughter, "Annie Lillian Rachel RICHINGS" (who was known as "Rachel"]

Wow  !   I wonder if this might fit my puzzle ? ? ?

Thanks for any help you may be able to give.

Kind regards

Lu                            :)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Saturday 06 October 07 05:37 BST (UK)
Hello Lu,

Unfortunately the birth record for Ann Amelia HEASMAN is an early church record i.e. the certificate won't be any help  :(

There aren't any records in the Pioneer Index for the births of William or Jane Elizabeth, or their marriage.

William HEASMAN and Jane Elizabeth had in Melbourne, Victoria (which was still part of the colony of NSW until 1851):
William Richard, St James CE, 1846 #14885
Ann Amelia, St James CE, 1846 #14886
Rachel, St James CE, 1848 #15937
Amelia, St Peters CE, 1851 #27008
For the births of William, Ann and Rachel, Jane Elizabeth is listed in the index as Elizabeth JANE i.e. as though Jane was her surname.  For Amelia's birth she is listed just as Jane.  However, Rachel's death gives her mother's name as Jane Eliz AYLMORE.

They also had a George - very much later! I didn't find his birth but here's his death:
HEASMAN George, born Melbourne, father William, mother Jane Elizabe AYLMORE, died 1870, age 4, #4125

An Annie HEASMAN married an Alexander MORININI in 1862, #4860
They had Amelia, b SAND, 1864

I'll put a bit more about Rachel in a separate post.

JAP
PS: I guess there might be further records but with HEASMAN spelled differently.
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Saturday 06 October 07 06:17 BST (UK)
A Rachel HEASMAN married Donald CAMERON (birthplaces not indexed for either) 1865 #2424

Rachel & Donald had (all born Ballarat, Vic):

*Catherine CAMERON 1866
  Kate CAMERON (b Ballt) m Joseph DUFFIELD (b Eng) 1905
     Kate & Joseph had Ida Kathleen DUFFIELD 1906 and Arthur Bruce DUFFIELD 1907, both b Hawthorn
- DUFFIELD Cath, father Cameron Donald, mother Rachael PARKIN (sic), died age 72, at PRAHRAN, Vic, 1938, #8714

*Eliza CAMERON 1868
- HUME Eliza, father Cameron Donald, mother Rachel HEASMAN, died age 88 at COBU (probably Coburg) 1957 #249 - Eliza is buried at the Coburg Cemetery

*Donald CAMERON 1870

*Mary Jane CAMERON 1872
- (She is probably the following) ROY Jane Mary Camero, father Cameron unknown, mother Rachel unknown, died age 89 at REGE, 1962, #8227

Donald CAMERON snr must have died.

Rachel CAMERON (birthplace not listed) married William PARKIN (born Sunderland) 1876 #1532

Rachel and William had:

*Ann Amelia PARKIN at 'EHIL' 1879
     Ann Amelia PARKIN & Jno Wm Geo QUICK had Geo Alymore (sic) QUICK 1903, Melbourne South and Ada Mary QUICK 1913, Richmond
     Deaths of children of Ann Amelia (PARKIN) QUICK:
       QUICK John William/ John William/ Ann Amelia PARKIN/ MTE/ 74/ 1974/ #1478
       QUICK David Leslie/ John William/ Annie Amelia PARKIN/ HEID/ 63/ 1978/ #15907
- QUICK Ann Amelia, father Parkin William, mother Rachel HEASEMAN (sic), died age 77, at Melbourne, 1956, #11302

*Edith PARKIN at 'EMERALD' 1881
     Edith PARKIN & Westgarth Charles Walker MUIR had Alan Cameron MUIR, Melbourne South, 1913
- MUIR Edith, father Parkin William, mother Rachel HEIZMAN (sic), died age 73, at FITZ, 1956, #7892

*William John PARKIN at 'EMERALD' 1881.

Rachel PARKIN, father Heasman Wm (that's how it appears in the index), mother Jane Eliz AYLMORE, died age 89, 1938, at Kew, Vic #7729

Cheers,

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Saturday 06 October 07 06:27 BST (UK)
Amelia HEASMAN (born Melbourne) married James BRADLEY (born Derbyshire) in 1871, #3546

I don't see any births to them.

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Saturday 06 October 07 06:49 BST (UK)
Hello  there Lu

Also  I  did  note  that Ann Amelia  HEASAM  marrried  in 1871  to a  James Bradley  so  one might draw  the assumption  that  this  may  very well not be  you Heasman  family  and  it may  not be a  trail  at all.

kind  regards Jenn

How wrong was I
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Saturday 06 October 07 06:55 BST (UK)
Quote
The NZ Army file for the nephew James RICHINGS offers little - he doesn't name his parents, nor does he know where they were born !

Harking back  to  this  snippet  How  old was  this James Richings and was he born in New Zealand,  if he  doesn't name  his parents  is Lily or Thomas  his NOK?

regards Jenn

edited  today  by  Jenn  getting absolutely frustrated at  her mistakes  still one can forgive a person can't one 8)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Saturday 06 October 07 07:47 BST (UK)
Also  I  did  note  that Ann Amelia  HEASAM  marrried  in 1871  to a  James Bradley  so  one might draw  the assumption  that  this  may  very well not be  you Heasman  family  and  it may  not be a  trail  at all.

Lu,
The Ann Amelia HEASMAN born in 1846 in Victoria (the record you found in the IGI) may indeed be completely unconnected to your family - as I am well aware (you too ;) ).  However, I've tried to provide as much info as I could find about that family for completeness and just in case a name might ring a bell with you.  Especially if any members of that HEASMAN family went to NZ.

Unfortunately I couldn't find the deaths of William HEASMAN or Jane Elizabeth (AYLMORE) HEASMAN in Vic - perhaps some else might have more success (I don't have access to all the Vic CDs).

Jenn,
See my earlier posts.

Just so there's no confusion  :)

It is not an Ann Amelia HEASMAN who married James BRADLEY in 1871.  It is an Amelia HEASMAN.

William HEASMAN & 'Elizabeth JANE'/Jane/Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE had
*Ann Amelia in 1846
*Amelia in 1851.

An Annie HEASMAN (birthplace not listed in the index) married an Alexander MORININI in 1862 and they had a daughter Amelia in 1864 (with Annie's surname indexed as HAESMAN).  Annie might be the 1846 Ann Amelia - one would need to see the marriage certificate.  I didn't find any further records of them - perhaps someone else might have more success.

An Amelia HEASMAN (b Melb) married a James BRADLEY in 1871.  Amelia might be the 1851 Amelia - one would need to see the marriage certificate.  I didn't find any further records of them - perhaps someone else might have more success.

Good luck Lu in your search for the elusive RICHINGSs!  If one really wanted to dream up a complex scenario, perhaps Alexander MORININI passed away and Annie went on to marry, and have children with, Thomas RICHINGS  ::)   ::)

JAP
PS: Lu, I think you said that nephew James RICHINGS's army file indicated that he was NZ-born?  
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Saturday 06 October 07 08:08 BST (UK)
Quote
Good luck Lu in your search for the elusive RICHINGSs!  If one really wanted to dream up a complex scenario, perhaps Alexander MORININI passed away and Annie went on to marry, and have children with, Thomas RICHINGS   
 
Ah well dream  on  Jap  Did  you  do  a search  to follow  through  to Annie Mornini death  I  don't won't to duplicate  your efforts

perhaps  Lu  can  make  something  out of  all  this!!


Oh  and  I stand corrected  it is  Amelia not Ann Amelia  the  other Annie
 was  very young  indeed  to  marry  if  it was her but not imposible  at all
Quote
JAP
PS: Lu, I think you said that nephew James RICHINGS's army file indicated that he was NZ-born?   



I have edited  my  post  I made a genuine error we cannot all be perfect  so  I  do humbly sincerelyoffer my  apologies to  you Lu   I  am  after all  trying to  help  but  by  giving  you  incorrect  or misleading questions  I  won't be doing  that
regards Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Saturday 06 October 07 08:27 BST (UK)
Jenn,

I searched as much as I could in the Pioneers, Federation and Deaths CDs ...  What I've posted is all that I could find.  There are a few other H*A*SMANs around but they seem to have different parents.

If Annie who m MORININI is the 1846 Annie, she would have been ca 16 when she married - not all that uncommon in those days.  Rachel who married (1) CAMERON, (2) PARKIN was ca 17 when she first married.  It rather stopped me in my tracks when I saw the deaths of Rachel aged 89 and her daughter Cath aged 72 in the same year (1938) - then I did the arithmetic and realized it was right.

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Sunday 07 October 07 01:16 BST (UK)
Hi     Jenn    and     JAP

     ~    thanks so much .....   and WELL DONE  !

          :)        :)       :)      :)      :)      :)      :)       :)

[forgive me "overdosing" on the smileys - perfectly justified though - read on ] -

                         ----     F O U N D    -----

(yes, at five o'clock this morning I "dug" this one up) !

From Christchurch City Council (NZ) Cemeteries database:

"MORININI :       Anni     (sic)
Died :         Tuesday, 26 May 1931
Buried  :     Sydenham Cemetery (Ch.Ch.)
Age  :          85 years      ~       Widow
Place of Birth:      VICTORIA
Years in NZ:         Unknown     (Grrrrrr  ! )
Address:     62 Hoon Hay Road, (Ch.Ch.)  "
                      ------------------------------
1931 - less 85 years  =   1846  (birthdate) !
She's most likely to be "Ann Amelia" (Annie) - isn't she ?
Will however, order the death cert. first thing tomorrow!
(The address above, Hoon Hay Road, is given in the probate record of Thomas RICHINGS (son), too).

Seems she perhaps did not actually marry Mr. RICHINGS ???
(Will check NZ indexes for births reg'd in name of "MORININI" - that could be where I find Lily, Thomas and ?).

As for Mr MORININI (Alexander)   .....   well, that might be a whole new - (and perhaps, exciting) - story ?

At VIC Records Office -Outwards Passenger Lists (online), I discovered :

"MORININI - Mr. A.   and,  MORININI - Mr. Emile,  from (Port) Melbourne, 4 May 1866, destined for London, passengers on the (ill-fated) "General Grant"  !    [The "General Grant" (this particular 1866 voyage), was the famous shipwreck.  She was laden with gold and sank in/off the Auckland Islands, south of NZ, on 14 May 1866.    Only 10 of the passengers survived, but they weren't rescued until 1868 !
Their survival, is a truly inspirational story]:     The "Morinini's", weren't on the survivors' list   !

If this "Mr. A." was in fact,  Annie's man, then what pray, was he doing, skyvving off to London ?????

Why did Annie go to NZ  .....  just where and when did she "hook up" with Mr. RICHINGS  ....  was he her "local butcher "  ....  (sorry, couldn't resist the butcher bit)  ?

Ah, TOO MANY questions !

Best I put my RICHINGS search on hold for now ~ till I get the death cert. for Anni / Annie.      I'll get back to you though with the outcome.

Till then  .... CHEERS again for all the great help given.

Kind regards

Lu
(in NZ  ... but possibly of Aussie descent ? ? ?)     ;D
 
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Sunday 07 October 07 02:13 BST (UK)
Hello Lu,

That is just the greatest news!

I can't wait for the next instalment.

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Sunday 07 October 07 07:52 BST (UK)
Hello  there  Lucy

So  if  that  follows  through  and  she  didn't marry  Richings  and  the  two  children  were born  in NEW ZEALAND  under what  name were  they registered? 

also  re Japs info
Quote
An Annie HEASMAN (birthplace not listed in the index) married an Alexander MORININI in 1862 and they had a daughter Amelia in 1864 (with Annie's surname indexed as HAESMAN).  Annie might be the 1846 Ann Amelia - one



Does  that then  mean  they  had a  half sister as  well,  if  so  what happened to  her?

also re your query Lu
Quote
Why did Annie go to NZ  .....  just where and when did she "hook up" with Mr. RICHINGS  ....  was he her "local butcher "  ....  (sorry, couldn't resist the butcher bit)  ?
well perhaps  you  are on  the right  track  he may have had a very good cumberland sausage on offer 8)

regards Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Monday 08 October 07 11:47 BST (UK)
Hi Jenn

[Have just picked myself up off the floor - still laughing at your cumberland sausage remark .... very good ]      ;D

Re:   Your Questions in Post # 23 :

1:     Lily RICHINGS and brother Thomas:     NO, can't find births registered for them under that surname (or any variation of it) in NZ.
 -     Lily's marriage cert. and death cert. say she was born in "Blenheim"

-      Thomas's marriage cert. and an affidavit on his divorce file, record birthplace as "Blenheim":

I'm guessing .....

a)     NZ born, but births NOT registered at all !

b)     NOT born in NZ (just perhaps led to believe they were):


2:    Amelia - born 1864 - d/o Annie HEASMAN/HAESMAN and Alexander MORININI:

Have checked NZ marriages for her -  NOTHING.
Quick search of electoral rolls / directories for both her and  mother Annie (in Christchurch area)  ... again,  NOTHING.
I'll keep looking for Amelia in NZ but think perhaps an AUS search might be a good idea also.     It may be that she didn't accompany her mother to NZ ?

Yes, Amelia would have been a half-sister of Lily and Thomas.     There is also probably a "brother" RICHINGS
- the father of James RICHINGS  (b. c. 1890)  (James' Army file gives next-of-kin as "Thomas RICHINGS - uncle" ) :  This is Thomas, brother of Lily,  (which also means that Lily is James'  "Aunt").     Hope that's not too confusing?

Regards


Lu
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Thursday 11 October 07 09:00 BST (UK)
Hi    JAP    and     Jenn      :) :)

                * * *     NEWS     FLASH   * * *

She's MINE !      She's   MINE !

Death Cert. just received:

Annie MORININI  ~  widow  ~  d. Christchurch NZ, 26 May 1931,  aged 84  :   Born:    Melbourne, VIC
Parents:  William and Jane Elizabeth HEASMAN (no mother's maiden name given) .
Married:   Melbourne, VIC to Alexander Morinini at age 16
Father's occupation:    Millwright  (ie : master craftsman /
skilled tradesman who made and repaired mills).
Living issue :     1 x Male aged 59  *
Years in NZ :    66
                               ___________

 * Living issue - this is Thomas RICHINGS (I've re-checked his marriage cert. to find he was aged 24 in 1896 ... whoops ... death details suggest he was 90 (1958) b.c. 1868).     Lily died in 1917 and if there was another son then he has either died before 1931 or, died outside of NZ.
Nothing located in NZ death indexes.
 
And, here's the JUST FOUND bonus bit !

IGI  ~  Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE /  William HAISMAN (oh dear, all these different spellings)   married at Saint Dunstan, Stepney, London, ENG.  on 18 July 1836 :

more still  ......  from PRO - VIC - Asst. British Immigrants:

HAISMAN - William (25),  Jane (22),  with  Jane (3) and Mary Ann (1 year)  ~   Ship "Alexander"  ~  December 1841 :
I'm presuming these are "mine"   ....  and  two wee daughters, I wonder what happened to them ?

But there's Annie to ponder .... arrives NZ c. 1865, with or without daughter Amelia?    This was the time of the gold rush ... lots of fellas to choose from  ...  she finds Mr. RICHINGS, the butcher   .... hmm ... wish I could, as I'd set out to do,  FIND him also !     Hey, I'm not complaining, the result I've got, with your help, is beyond all expectations !

Many thanks again for your contributions ~ truly appreciated .      :)   :)

Kind regards

Lu

PS  for   JAP : 
     
re: Post # 13  ~ Annie and Alexander Morinini - daughter Amelia born "SAND" (1864) :
Just wondered if you might know what district / area, "SAND"  represents please ?    (I did try ... worked out all the other abbreviations ... this one's got me beat!): 
Thanks    :)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Thursday 11 October 07 10:02 BST (UK)
Hey  there

SANDHURST  (maybe)

regards JEnn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Thursday 11 October 07 10:59 BST (UK)
Hello again Lu,

It's getting more and more exciting  :)

I'd go for the 1 male being Thomas - his age/date of birth on his marriage cert and his mother's death cert are surely more reliable than that given on his own death cert when he died at an advanced age.  Who were the informants of the deaths of (a) Annie MORININI, and (b) Thomas RICHINGS?  Any clues there?  Any clues on Thomas's marriage cert?

Someone else might find Amelia still in Oz - I did try on the CDs I have available to me but found nothing.  I take it you've tried to follow up Amelia in NZ.

The location of 'SAND' is how it appears in the Vic BDM Index.  I try not to make assumptions because the abbreviations in the Vic BDM Index are not standard at all - it's a real problem >:(  So SAND might well be Sandhurst (early name for Bendigo) as Jenn suggests as a possibility.  But, then again, SAND might be Sandridge (early name for Port Melbourne).  Or somewhere else altogether  :(   

IF the years in NZ entry is correct, this suggests that Annie moved first and Alexander was chasing after her or coming to join her?  As I read the 'General Grant' 1866 story, destinations of passengers weren't stated??  The final destination of the ship was London but there might well have been passengers with intermediate destinations such as NZ?

Lu, it is great to be on a thread where the original poster (you!!) does so much work and finds out so much as things move on!

Best of luck for further finds,

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: maidmarianoops on Thursday 11 October 07 12:28 BST (UK)
Passenger Lists for Auckland, Manakau & Kaipara Harbours..


http://www.angelfire.com/az/nzgenweb/otherAuck.html
sylvia
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Thursday 11 October 07 22:08 BST (UK)
Hello  there  Lu

What  about a  check  of the Christcurch  newspaper  for  Annie MORININI  funeral  notice. death notice/ obituary. 

If there is a  notice  of any  sort  it may  give  you  information  on  the family.

A look  at  the cemetery  where  she  is buried  to see if  there is a headstone  and  what  the inscription  might be  could also  reveal  further  information.

kind regards Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Friday 12 October 07 05:55 BST (UK)
Birth
Jane Elizabeth HEASMAN, September quarter 1838, Poplar, Volume 2, Page 286

Baptisms
Both on 12 April 1840 at St Dunstan's Stepney, parents William HEUSMAN (sic) & Jane Elizabeth
*Jane Elizabeth HEUSMAN
*Ann Amelia HEUSMAN

I guess that the family might be able to be found in the 1841 census (held 6 June 1841)?
The Alexander arrived (from London and Plymouth) on 27 Dec 1841.

Cheers,

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Saturday 13 October 07 03:56 BST (UK)
Hi Jenn    :)

Thanks for your posts #'s 26 & 29.    Thought "SAND" might just give me a clue as to whether Mr MORININI was in gold-field territory ?

Yes, the newspapers are the next obvious move, aren't they   ..... unfortunately, here in Wellington, I only have access to papers up until around 1915 .... but have posted a "look-up for Christchurch"    ..... fingers crossed.

ZILCH result on cemetery transcriptions too.

Kind regards

Lu      :)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Saturday 13 October 07 05:32 BST (UK)
Hi JAP     :)

Thanks, (your post #27)  .... unfortunately, no clues -  death informant for Annie was (third party) funeral director (as seems to be the case on so many NZ certs).   Death cert. for Thomas (1958) I don't have - but unlikely to be of help if rest of family have pre-deceased him - (and his only remaining child - Rachel - died 1961).    Marriage witnesses for Thomas were - "Lily RICHINGS and a "John WILLIAMS, Labourer of Opawa, Christchurch" :   for Lily's marriage, witnesses were "Margaret RICHINGS (this was wife of Thomas, they divorced in 1911), and an "Albert NICHOLLS, watchmaker", both of Christchurch.   But, yes, witnesses are always worth "checking out".

Just a question  ... (hopeful you may have encountered this before) ?  ....  and it applies to divorce records particularly ... affidavits / declarations, where someone has sworn, "I am informed and believe I was born at .... blah, blah, blah ."
An indication perhaps, that they're unable to produce their birth certificate ?    (This appears on divorce record for Thomas RICHINGS).

Amelia MORININI (b. SAND - 1864) ~ alas, NO record of her death in NZ index (1864 - 1932 searched):     Thanks for the explanation re: "SAND" ... hadn't realised this was the former name of Bendigo ....  mmm ... I was thinking Mr MORININI, gold prospector ?

Yes, you're most likely right with the scenario of Mr. M. following Annie to NZ .... and (silly me), yes, the route was easterly, around the tail end of NZ , with a probable stopover there.    I wondered why I'd mentioned "Mr. M. "skyvving off to London" (naughty ... I'm always jumping the gun) !   However,  re-visiting the passenger list for the "G/Grant" at PRO-VIC turned up something of interest.
Now the "G/Grant" reportedly had around 89 passengers (and crew) aboard ?     PRO-VIC lists approx. 156 souls ?
There appears to be duplications of a great many of the passengers names - e.g.  an initial entry, followed by another, to which "age and destination" have been added?
ODD ?       As well as the "MORININI,  A. and MORININI, Mr. Emile", there is also a listing for "MOURINI, A. (25) (2 actually - one appears on next page)  and MOURINI, Emile, aged 1 - destination, London"  ???      Same people ?   I'm probably reading way too much into this,  ....  "Emile" (yes, a boys' name),  BUT ... Emile ("Em-eel") aged 1,  and Amelia ("Emelia" ?) b. 1864 (and in May 1866, might not have yet reached her 2nd birthday) ?      Had Mr. M., per chance, been left holding the baby   ???

[I ain't thinking too charitably, at present,  in terms of Annie ~ she's caused me too many sleepness nights] !

Anymore thoughts most welcome.
Thanks again

Kind regards

Lu      :)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Saturday 13 October 07 05:33 BST (UK)
Lu,

It's unfortunate (maddening, frustrating, infuriating?) that there are no standard abbreviations for districts in Victoria ...

The Gazetteer with the Vic CDs includes - at least - the following districts, all of which might variously be abbreviated as SAND (or, of course, some other abbreviation!):
Sandford, Sandhurst, Sandon, Sandpatch Island, Sandridge, Sandstone Island, Sandy Creek (several places), Sandy Creek Diggings, Sandy Desert, Sandy Point.

If you download the 1862 marriage cert from the Vic BDM, it should at least show where Alexander & Annie were married (place of marriage is not indexed).  And would have lots of other information.

And the 1864 birth cert of their daughter Amelia (indexed as SAND) should reveal where this SAND actually was.

Postal Directories for Vic for those years (and earlier and later) might also reveal where the MORONINIs (spelling?) were, which MORONINIs (a rare name in Vic) were around, and when - don't know whether these are available in NZ but most state libraries (and some genie soc libraries) in Australia have them.  If anyone happens to be where they are, it would be good if they could do a lookup.

Just for completeness, have you asked here on RC for an 1841 England census lookup for the HEASMANs/HAISMANs/HEUSMANs!

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Saturday 13 October 07 05:34 BST (UK)
Lu,

I went to post my effort above - and saw that you'd posted.

Decided to go ahead and post (might have lost it otherwise)  ::)  I'll now read what you've posted  ;D

Cheers,

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Saturday 13 October 07 05:44 BST (UK)
Hello  there Lu

the  1841  census  says  living at Galley  Pot?
Hartfield Sussex England  district of  registation Eastborn

Ann Heasam 3
Eliza Heasman 25
Eliza Heasamn 6
William  Heasman 25   agric labourer
all born  in County

regards Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Saturday 13 October 07 05:55 BST (UK)
Well Lu!

That's fascinating about the MOURINIs on the 'General Grant'.

My Vic searches were basically for M*R*NI - and I found no likely records (plenty of MARTINI etc, etc) apart from the 1862 marriage and the 1864 birth of Amelia.  MOURINI (none in Vic) Emile (esp if Mr M had a strong accent) aged 1 sounds very likely.

Incidentally, I also tried all the Emile M*s ...

Sorry, no, I've not encountered sworn statements about birth.  And my lot wouldn't have bothered to divorce!  Actually, on second thoughts, a Great-Aunt did divorce in Vic - but her second marriage was to a bigamist  ::)
But, yes, it does sound very much as though Thomas couldn't produce a birth cert (and likely that he didn't know under which name he'd been recorded?).

Sometimes Funeral Directors retain (or deposit in Archives) their records - worth a query.

And further searches for Christchurch newspapers just might reveal something.

Obviously I'm happy to spend your money  :o on downloading Vic certs - but you never know just what you might find!

All the best,

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Saturday 13 October 07 06:01 BST (UK)
Hi again JAP  

Many thanks for births / baptisms for HEUSMAN (sic) at Saint Dunstans.

Well  ....  the "Ann Amelia"  looks mighty interesting ?
Mmm .... it's a "Mary Ann - aged 1" HAISMAN listed on  "Alexander" 1841 along with Jane (22), William (25) and Jane (3) ?

Was there an earlier "Ann Amelia" - a babe who perhaps died before the voyage  ... I wonder ?

[I'm posting a UK  1841 look-up, this minute] !

So MANY twists and turns ....  oh, JAP .....   do feel free to opt out if all this intrigue is "getting to you" .... (frankly, it's driving me BONKERS ] !  

Really, it's so nice to be able to call on your expertise and to have someone to bounce ideas off.     Your help is much appreciated.

Have just spotted your incoming message  ...  will get back shortly.

Bye for now

Lu    :)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Saturday 13 October 07 06:25 BST (UK)
Lu,

I'd tend to think that the first Ann Amelia didn't survive.  And it's so interesting that they had another Ann Amelia and then an Amelia; Amelia is surely a family name.

Tropicalj's 1841 census info is interesting.  There's a Mary Ann HEASMAN b Brighton (Sussex!), Mar quarter 1839, Volume 7, Page 228.  Who knows!!

I do feel sure (famous last words!) that you'll sort out this puzzle (I do like puzzles!).  If only you can find Blenheim NZ births and also Blenheim directories ...

Not to mention Christchurch newspaper info about Annie.

Cheers,

JAP
PS: On a lighter note.  I'm told that the NZ-born brothers of my Gran built a 'ship' (raft) on which to sail back to NZ ca 1890.  The brave little boys launched it into the water and set sail.  There was just one problem!  They had launched it into the (fortunately very shallow) Albert Park Lake in Melbourne - not the sea!
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Saturday 13 October 07 06:35 BST (UK)
Hello  there Lu


on  the  Christchurch Cemetery Data Base

did you  also  note  the  three Richings burial  details -  one  for John  Richings  butcher?  Also  a  number of Heasman's!

http://librarydata.christchurch.org.nz/Cemeteries/

kind regards Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Sunday 14 October 07 01:52 BST (UK)
Hi Jenn    :)

Many thanks for trying 1841 census.     I'm rather spoilt for choice ~ have just received following from UK -

HEAMAN (sic)    (Grrr  .... another mis-spelling)
   -  William (24) turner J. (journeyman turner ?)
   -  Jane (22)  and  Jane (2), born Middlesex
(Wm. and Jane, the parents, NOT born Middlesex)
1841 -   St. Anne - Limehouse - Middlesex :
Occupation for Wm. and their ages (matching those on passenger list), would I think, steer me towards this one.

Your Sussex link though was helpful ~ there seems to be an awful lot of HEASMANS (and AYLMORES) in that area.

RE:   Christchurch Cemeteries Database :
Yes, thanks, I have "good info" on the RICHINGS people ~ two of whom, connect to Thomas (junior).
"John RICHINGS - butcher"  -   I have him "waiting in the wings" ... and will post an explanation about him shortly.
As to the HEASMANS, yes, I've checked them out too and even in the light of the newly-found "Aussie" HEASMANS, they appear not to be related (well, at this stage anyway).

Appreciate your help ~ thanks again

Kind regards

Lu    :)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Sunday 14 October 07 03:45 BST (UK)
Hi JAP    :)

Many thanks for your reply # 33 ~ and for ALL that most helpful information.

VIC postal directories - yes, will check those out, they're possibly available in our National Library here.    Funeral directors / burial books -  will also endeavour to check.

Thanks for the offer to download VIC certs.   I may get back to you later for those.

Have just posted to "tropicalj" (Jenn) ~ see #40 - re: 1841 census.   Looks to be them ?      No "Amelia Ann" ?  (I'm guessing she may have been their firstborn - 1836-7) ?   
Yes, the "Amelia" thread running through this family, is interesting and hopefully will lead back to something.
Thanks again.

Kind regards

Lu

[ PS:     Loved your family story (and the earlier ones)
....   those two wee boys 'n a boat, heading to NZ ... so cute!]


Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Sunday 14 October 07 04:16 BST (UK)
That Middlesex 1841 census entry sounds right.  Though the absence of a child younger than Jane is a bit of a puzzle.  It would really be good to see the microfiche; perhaps Mary Ann was 1 month old rather than 1 year and, in the panic of emigrating, wasn't registered (though the variable spellings of HEASMAN might just mean that we haven't picked her up).

As neither William nor Jane was born in Middlesex, might this be Jane:
Jane Elizth AYLMORE, parents Josiah and Ann, bap 5 Aug 1818, Saint Thomas, Portsmouth, Hampshire.
Josiah and Ann had (at least):
Jane Elizth. AYLMORE, bap 5 Aug 1818, St Thomas, Portsmouth
Amelia AYLMORE, bap 2 Sep 1821, St Mary's, Portsea, Hampshire
Thomas Reeves AYLMORE, bap 10 Feb 1823, St John's, Portsea

Sorry for the misunderstanding Lu, I wasn't offering to spend my money  :-[ - just happily suggesting that you download more certs i.e. that you spend more of your money!  ::)

The 1836 OPR marriage entry for William & Jane just might have some more clues - but, of course, might have nothing more than is in the IGI.

Cheers,

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Sunday 14 October 07 23:42 BST (UK)
Hi Jenn   and   JAP   :)

As discovered by Jenn, on the Christchurch Cemeteries Database, there "lurks",  a John RICHINGS ... (and he was "a butcher", to boot) !

I have a probate record for this "John" - he died (intestate) at Christchurch, 1898 - with 9 pence in the bank, 20 pounds owed him, a few sticks of furniture, a horse, some sheep and some skins!    More "tragically", he met his demise in a ghastly accident - something to do with a horse and cart?    The filmed version of the inquest record, is of such poor quality, it is impossible to read !    From a hospital file, I discovered  "John" was a native of Gloucester(shire), aged 59, a cattle hawker of (suburban) Addington, with ...  no next-of-kin !

BUT, two marriage certs and a death cert, tell me it is a "Thomas RICHINGS" I should be searching for.   
It may of course be, that "John" is "Thomas", OR that "Thomas" is "John"  ???
It would though,  don't you think, have been remiss of me, to have never gone in search of "Thomas" ?

Have just found after all, that I can access the old newspapers at National Library here  ... and I'm headed in that direction right now!    Hopeful of some new clues.
Will get back a.s.a.p. !

Lu        :)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Monday 15 October 07 03:30 BST (UK)
Lu, Good luck with the newspapers!

I was thinking about Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE and the possible IGI record for a Jane Elizth., bap 1818 in Portsmouth, daughter of Josiah AYLMORE & Ann with siblings Amelia (1821, Portsea) and Thomas Reeves (1823, Portsea).

I wonder whether Josiah & Ann might appear in the 1841 census?

Thomas's middle name of Reeves is interesting.

The following site:
http://www.medows.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/genealogy/WC02/WC02_172.htm
mentions two AYLMORE-REEVES marriages.

One is Josiah AYLMORE (bap 1731, d 1786) m Frances REEVES  (bap 1736, d 1807) in 1755 in West Wittering, Sussex (a place where there are many AYLMOREs).  The marriage is in the IGI.

They had a son Josiah bap 1763 (Josia AYLMERE in the IGI) but there is no further information about him.  It's tempting to wonder whether he might be the father or grandfather of Jane Elizabeth ...

But it might all be a red herring ...

JAP
PS: Found a website with further info about 'Josia AYLMERE' bap 1763 at:
http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=afulsang&id=I00895
It has this Josiah marrying a Sarah LEMAN in 1796 and having children including a Josiah in 1799 (family is in the IGI).  That makes him a bit young (though not impossibly so) to be the father of Jane Elizabeth.
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Tuesday 16 October 07 23:21 BST (UK)
Hi  JAP     :)

[Sorry not to have got back sooner - had a few ISP problems].

Very many thanks for the AYLEMORE info, and in particular, the links.    Most interesting.    Much "nutting out" to be done I think ?      I too had found some of those AYLMORES, and it does appear their roots were very much in Sussex.   I think I've now got my head around the "Portsea" / "Portsmouth" thing, (both close together),  so it's perhaps not odd that different churches/parishes, feature.     "Reeves"  - mmm  .... also found a Joseph AYLMORE  m. Ann REEVES - 1816 - St. Mary's, Portsea - just thinking - "Joseph" / Josiah"  ?

RICHINGS:   Well, your "good luck for my newspaper search" -  has worked a treat !    UPDATE follows in next posting.

Cheers

Lu             :)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Wednesday 17 October 07 00:25 BST (UK)
Hi   JAP   and Jenn   :) :)

            **    RICHINGS   -    UPDATE   * *

Well, well  !      A step nearer to finding the elusive THOMAS ?

From "The Press"  (Christchurch NZ)  Thursday, 3 February, 1898:
"A Man Killed at Addington"
"At the Addington crossing yesterday evening, Mr. Thomas RICHARDS* was killed by the 7 o'clock train from the north.
Mr RICHARDS who was a wholesale butcher at Addington, was driving home in his cart and did not hear the train approaching.  The engine smashed into the cart, knocking the back section of it to pieces, and throwing the unfortunate man down the line.   He was immediately picked up and taken to hospital but expired when placed on the operating table ..  (badly fractured skull, broken collar bone).     His horse was not hurt, nor curiously was a calf, with its legs tied up, and lying in the bottom of the cart.
No blame is attachable to the driver of the engine as it was impossible to stop the train in a short space, and, the whistle was blown.    The deceased leaves a wife and grown-up family of two.   An inquest will be held today."
                              _____________

*   Note:   "Mr Thomas RICHARDS"    ?

From "The Press"   5 February, 1898 :
"Addington Railway Accident - The Inquest"
"An inquest, touching on the death of John RICHINGS *
who was run over by the train at Addington on Wednesday evening  .....     VERDICT:   Accidental death - no blame attached to any of the railway officials."

*Note:     "John RICHINGS"    ?    (It was the same accident -outlined in both articles) !

My earlier info about this John RICHINGS (and this accident) seems to have come from another (rival) newspaper - wherein the victim was named as "John RICHINGS" !   (Happy, I found the "Press" article - and the "Thomas RICHARDS"  thing  .... it offers "some" explanation  ... perhaps)?
Unfortunately there was no actual death notice for John ("Thomas")  .... only  funeral details (venue and time).
 
Death Cert. ordered  .....  will get back a.s.a.p.

Cheers
Lu                :)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Wednesday 17 October 07 02:44 BST (UK)
Oh Lu, let's hope the death cert has further information on the "wife and grown-up family of two".  And perhaps you might be able to get access to a photocopy of the original inquest report (rather than the illegible filmed copy).  This is certainly turning out to be a most interesting (though sad) story.  I think you've yet to search for a newspaper notice/obit for 'Anni' MORININI?
JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Wednesday 17 October 07 13:01 BST (UK)
Hi  JAP    :)

  ....   was short of time, and had meant to add the following:
Search for death / funeral notices / obits -
*  Annie MORININI - d. 1931 -  extensive search - no notices appear to have been published.
*  Lily COATES (Richings) - d 16 Sept. 1917 -  "  .... wife of Francis, beloved sister of Thomas Richings"  [Odd !  No mention of her mother Annie, who was still alive, nor of Lily's 3 children].  Brother Thomas perhaps inserted this notice (Lily died at his home after an illness) - seems he was very fond of her.
*  Thomas RICHINGS junior - d. 1958 - ".... beloved father of Rachel Baker of 62 Hoon Hay Road (note: this was also the  address on Annie's death cert) ... his 6 grandchildren were named".   Thomas cremated at Christchurch.

INQUEST - John Richings ....  full report was also published in "The Press" so I now have copy of this.

Archives NZ have just updated online catalogue and this has appeared:
"Bankruptcy records (x 2) - John Richings - Butcher of Dunedin ~ dated 1881" !   [These can only be viewed at Dunedin office - cost to have copied and posted $50 plus.
Ouch ] !    Couldn't find him on electoral roll at Dunedin.
Same John ... I'd guess so?

A further curiosity in this saga, is that at her death (1917), Lily (a farmers' wife), owned real estate - in her own right.
She appointed a land agent as sole executor of her will (he was also joint guardian of the two youngest children along with husband, Francis).    "... her real estate could be leased to husband (Francis) at a peppercorn rental ... other of it was to be sold etc. for the benefit/education of the young children".  (No value mentioned  in will).      Thomas too, left a homestead ( to daughter), and 8 parcels of land and farm implements etc. to be shared amongst six grandchildren.   (Some of this may well have come from mother Annie's estate - still hunting to see if there was a will for her).   Perhaps theses "riches",  were gained by their own efforts, but I just find Lily's case a little odd?   Not an inheritance from (i)  a bankrupt or near penniless father,
(ii)  nor seemingly from a mother who survived her by some 14 years??    (Not from Lotto either) !    Husband Francis, an Irishman, 20 years her senior, died intestate, 1932, with a few meagre possessions and apparently estranged from his children.
 
JAP  .... do you have anymore great, possible scenarios to offer?
Remember - you got it right last time!

Yes, I hope death cert for "John" is brimming with info. 

Cheers


Lu       :)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Wednesday 17 October 07 13:08 BST (UK)
Hi  JAP    :)

  ....   was short of time, and had meant to add the following:
Search for death / funeral notices / obits -
*  Annie MORININI - d. 1931 -  extensive search - no notices appear to have been published.
*  Lily COATES (Richings) - d 16 Sept. 1917 -  "  .... wife of Francis, beloved sister of Thomas Richings"  [Odd !  No mention of her mother Annie, who was still alive, nor of Lily's 3 children].  Brother Thomas perhaps inserted this notice (Lily died at his home after an illness) - seems he was very fond of her.
*  Thomas RICHINGS junior - d. 1958 - ".... beloved father of Rachel Baker of 62 Hoon Hay Road (note: this was also the  address on Annie's death cert) ... his 6 grandchildren were named".   Thomas cremated at Christchurch.

INQUEST - John Richings ....  full report was also published in "The Press" so I now have copy of this.

Archives NZ have just updated online catalogue and this has appeared:
"Bankruptcy records (x 2) - John Richings - Butcher of Dunedin ~ dated 1881" !   [These can only be viewed at Dunedin office - cost to have copied and posted $50 plus.
Ouch ] !    Couldn't find him on electoral roll at Dunedin.
Same John ... I'd guess so?

A further curiosity in this saga, is that at her death (1917), Lily (a farmers' wife), owned real estate - in her own right.
She appointed a land agent as sole executor of her will (he was also joint guardian of the two youngest children along with husband, Francis).    "... her real estate could be leased to husband (Francis) at a peppercorn rental ... other of it was to be sold etc. for the benefit/education of the young children".  (No value mentioned  in will).      Thomas too, left a homestead ( to daughter), and 8 parcels of land and farm implements etc. to be shared amongst six grandchildren.   (Some of this may well have come from mother Annie's estate - still hunting to see if there was a will for her).   Perhaps theses "riches",  were gained by their own efforts, but I just find Lily's case a little odd?   Not an inheritance from (i)  a bankrupt or near penniless father,
(ii)  nor seemingly from a mother who survived her by some 14 years??    (Not from Lotto either) !    Husband Francis, an Irishman, 20 years her senior, died intestate, 1932, with a few meagre possessions and apparently estranged from his children.
  
JAP  .... do you have anymore great, possible scenarios to offer?
Remember - you got it right last time!

Yes, I hope death cert for "John" is brimming with info.  

Cheers


Lu       :)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Thursday 18 October 07 12:08 BST (UK)
Hi Lu,

You are doing brilliantly.

You want me to dream up some scenarios, eh!

Well, perhaps the bankruptcy is very important?

Financial troubles might explain the move from Blenheim (IF, indeed, that's where they were and IF Thomas c 1868 & Lily c 1874 were actually born there).
Then a bankruptcy in Dunedin (long way away from Blenheim) might explain the move to Christchurch.
And perhaps the paltry financial situation of John/Thomas RICHINGS (assuming they are the same person) when he died might be because, as a bankrupt, he could not run a business and might not have wished to have money in his own name (creditors could have claimed it).   Perhaps everything was in Annie's name (IF she was his wife or 'wife') and thus she could pass it to the children.

Who knows ...!

And perhaps everything can be explained by the bankruptcy i.e. no mention of Annie at Lily's death (and Thomas's??); and Annie recorded at death as MORININI.

But this dreamed-up scenario might well be total rubbish  ::)

Looking forward to what you find next!

Cheers,

JAP
PS: I guess another possibility is that Alexander MORININI left lots of money from which Annie benefited  ;)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Thursday 18 October 07 13:02 BST (UK)
Hello  there

I  am  sorry  I can't paint  any exotic lively scenarios   but  is  it  Possible  that Lily  who  you  haven't  found a birth for  as  yet,  is  that correct,  may  have been  married  previoulsy  and  had  inherited her husband's wealth?


What about  Thomas  as  you say  he died reasonably wealthy too,  what did he do  for a  living  or was  his inherited wealth?  Maybe from  the Haesman side?

Just a  thought  have  you  had  a  chance  to  pursue  if  there  is  a  headstone for Annie?  also  perhaps  for John Richings.  Headstones  often  give clues  too.  Even  Lily's?



kind regards Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Friday 19 October 07 04:57 BST (UK)
Hi Lu,

I've been thinking about James RICHINGS b ca 1890 in NZ, who gave his uncle, Thomas RICHINGS, as his NOK on his army file ...

I wonder whether it's worth trying to chase him up?

Are you quite certain that nok Uncle Thomas is the same chap as Thomas, brother of Lily?  That is, is there further info in the army file which confirms this (Thomas's address, occupation, etc).

Have you been able to find any further info on James?  For example, his address on his army file.  Or a marriage for him (before or after he joined the army).  Or his death.  Was he on an electoral roll.  If you can find a marriage or death from him, this might reveal much.

If James is a nephew of your Thomas, one has to wonder who his father was?  As you have wondered earlier on this thread, did Thomas and Lily have another brother (or brothers).  Or was James a 'step-nephew' i.e. a child of a son of John/Thomas RICHINGS from a marriage/relationship before that with Annie ...

Regardless, there are still plenty of avenues to follow as well as James - headstones (as suggested by tropicalj), Thomas/John's death cert which you are awaiting, the original (legible?) inquest, perhaps a will for Annie, the (expensive) bankruptcy documents ...  And if Thomas/John started out in Blenheim, have you searched for RICHINGS births there before the period when Thomas and Lily were born?  Or the possible death of a first wife?

Cheers,

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Friday 19 October 07 11:18 BST (UK)
Hi  JAP   :)        re: Post # 50

Thanks.      And yes, I do want your possible scenarios  ...   they're great, .... and besides, they get me thinking in all sorts of other directions !

You see, I hadn't thought of the bankruptcy having all those possible consequences you've pointed out   ....  so, very well done JAP !

Mmmm  ... having the bankruptcy records would help enormously.

I like the suggestion too that Mr. Morinini left Annie lots of money   ....  (just hope it wasn't Annie who shot through to NZ, with HIS "loot"   ... I have some strange feelings about Annie) ?
As always, your help is much appreciated.

Cheers

Lu       :)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Friday 19 October 07 11:50 BST (UK)
Hi  Jenn   :)

Thanks.       Yes, correct - haven't found birth registrations for either of Annie's children, Lily and Thomas (nor for James the "nephew"").      There is also no indication on records that Lily had a previous marriage in NZ.

Thomas Richings (junior) was listed on his marriage cert. as a "butcher" (1896) - Electoral records after that date, show him as simply "labourer", though between 1921 -27 he is listed as a "grain storeman".     His apparent "wealth" may have come from his mother Annie's estate - I'm still working to see if there's a probate record in her name.

And headstones - (sorry, dopey me, forgot to include this earlier) - yes, have checked, and there are no headstone transcriptions for any members of this "family".

Kind regards

Lu   

Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Friday 19 October 07 11:58 BST (UK)
Hello  There Lu

now  that  is  an  interesting comment
no  headstones? or  illegible?  and  yet  they  did seem  to  have  had  monies?  I  wonder why  then  no  headstones were erected  on  the  grave  Especially  Lily  as  you say her brother Thomas seemed very  fond  of  her.  Only  me wondering  out  loud  Do  you  live  near  the  Graveyard  or are  you  in another city?

regards Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Friday 19 October 07 13:49 BST (UK)
Hi again  JAP    :)

re: James RICHINGS:

Many thanks for your thoughts on James and suggestions for other follow ups.   (Following this post is some breaking news - birth cert for John Richings arrived today .... )

Yes, quite certain the Thomas R. (Uncle) N-o-K, is the right person.   This "name, Uncle,  N-o-K"  along with address 199 Lyttelton St, Ch Ch. ( and is also the place where Lily died), shows twice on the army file of James.    Electoral rolls - James, seed cleaner, is at 238 Lyttelton St, in 1921, and in 1930 at 24 Mowbray St, ChCh,  occupation - carrier.
Yes, I've checked the whole of the NZ birth and death indexes from beginning to end - no births for these people, and nor did I find a death for James.

BUT, in view of the info in the accident report on John RICHINGS ...  "two adult children", I'm now thinking that James Richings, was not in fact the child of a brother of Thomas and Lily ....(and it was very naughty of me to suggest earlier that Lily must have been James' aunt (just because Thomas was his uncle) !

Reviewing info for James, (and it seemed insignificant earlier) his army file showed his address on enlistment, (1918)  to be "farm labourer, employed by Mr Powell, at Wharatoa, near Balclutha".   (This place was indeed a good way from Balclutha, inland and perhaps remote.  Balclutha is roughly halfway between Dunedin and Invercargill (which is southernmost South Island).  Incidentally, I didn't ever find James or his "Mr. Powell" on electoral/postal rolls.
AND ... at this point, I "smell a big, fat, rat"  !

Obviously, I've asked myself time and again, why NO birth registrations ?     No, Thomas, no Lily, no James,  (and  no registration either for Ivy Elizabeth, my unknown grandmother - but that's another story) who was Lily's supposed "firstborn"?

I now believe it is entirely possible that LILY was the mother of James RICHINGS  !   (She was aged 15 or thereabouts, the birth wasn't registered, James didn't give his parents names on army file (or other details of them) .. why?   To protect Lily perhaps ?   Living around Balclutha also probably puts him in a place near to where John/"Thomas" Richings was at in Dunedin ?
(I haven't yet had time to search thoroughly the electoral rolls in that vicinity).

Just back to James for a mo  ....  yes, he married, apparently whilst on Army leave.   His marriage to Sarah took place on 3 July 1919, at Raffrey, Ireland, (there is an address on Army file showing Sarah living in Belfast before she headed to NZ).   So what was James doing in Raffrey ?
Well, by a very strange co-incidence, Raffrey was also the birthplace of Lily's husband Francis COATES.   My guess, (and James was about 29 at this time), is that if he was indeed Lily's SON,  (and Francis perhaps his surrogate father / stepfather), then he may have gone off to Raffrey, (Co. Down)  to visit Francis's folk ???     Do tell me, if you think that sounds daft?        The only other "Richings" in NZ who "might have been Lily & Thomas's brother", died in 1936 (after Annie's death) so, unless he was estranged from the family (ha, I'm thinking, "black sheep" in a butchers family ... sorry), then it might be expected he would show up on Annie's death cert?     Confused?   Yep  ... so am I !
Hopefully, the next post re: John/Thomas RICHINGS will also explain a few things.

Cheers

Lu      
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Saturday 20 October 07 03:58 BST (UK)
Hi again Lu,

You certainly have a convoluted family  :)

I'm afraid that, stupidly, I hadn't thought that a way for Uncle Thomas RICHINGS to be James RICHINGS's uncle would be for James to be an illegitimate son of Lily - it makes perfect sense.

I see that John/Thomas RICHINGS has been pretty well sorted out on your new thread at:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=262672

I'm thinking about the earliest documented dates you have for your RICHINGS people in NZ.
*John/Thomas RICHINGS
     1881 (the date of the bankruptcy in Dunedin)
     You now also have an earliest possible date for when he left England - 1861 when he appeared in the census.  However other relevant dates are September quarter 1861 (birth of Elizabeth Jane, Sep q 1861), March quarter 1864 (birth of John Blizard, possibly his son - but John/Thomas might have left before his birth), and circa 1864 (wife Sarah Ann said in the 1871 census that he'd been absent for 7 years).
     Do you have any record of John/Thomas in Christchurch prior to his death in 1898?  I ask this because I wonder when he moved from Dunedin to Christchurch given that you are thinking that James's connexion with Balclutha (south of Dunedin) might be relevant to Lily's postulated residence in Dunedin.

*Lily RICHINGS
     Presumably the first documented date you have for her as Lily RICHINGS is her marriage?  Is there any additional information on her notice of intention to marry?
     When (and where) was she married?
     What was her age on her marriage and (1917) death certificates?

*Thomas RICHINGS
     Presumably the first documented date you have for him as Thomas RICHINGS is his (first) marriage certificate in 1896?  Is there any additional information on his notice of intention to marry?
     Thomas's age was (I understand) given as 24 on his marriage in 1896 which gives a birthdate of ca 1868 1872!!.  Where was he married?
     His age was (I understand) given as 90 on his death in 1958 which gives a birthdate of ca 1860 1868!!. However, I'd rely much more on the age on the mc which Thomas himself would have given.
     Do you have ages for him from the 1911 divorce, and his second marriage (date?).

*James RICHINGS
     Presumably the first documented date you have for him is 1918 - his date of enlistment on from his army file where he states that he was born in 1890.
     Incidentally, I take it that you are quite sure that Francis COATES came from Raffrey in Co Down?  It then makes perfect sense that James (whether son or nephew of Lily) would visit Raffrey and even marry a girl from there.

I'm still hoping that there might be records to be found under some hitherto unsuspected variation of MORONINI ....
Incidentally, I don't know anything about NZ electoral registers - was it compulsory to enrol?  If so, one might think that Thomas, at least, might have been on an electoral roll before his marriage in 1896 ...

Cheers,

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Saturday 20 October 07 04:18 BST (UK)
Hi  JAP    :)

..... oh BOTHER .....   had just typed up details of John' death cert  ....  and other important stuff  ..... thought the message had got through;    clicked on your incoming message ... and .... LOST THE LOT !

Back soon  (when I've stopped cursing) 1

Cheers      Lu     
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Saturday 20 October 07 05:28 BST (UK)
Hi

....   here goes again !

Death Cert information for John RICHINGS :

Died:   2 February 1898 at Christchurch, NZ
Cause of Death:  Accidentally killed by train (Verdict of jury)
Age:   59 years     Occupation:    Butcher
Parents:   John Richings, butcher, and   ?   Richings
(mother's maiden name not given)
Born:    Bristol, England        Religion:  Not given
Years in NZ:    28     Buried: Sydenham Cemetery, Christchurch on  6 February 1898.
Living issue:   1 x Male aged 26 years *
                      1 x female aged 24 years
Marriage(s) :   NIL
Witness at burial:   W. Langford (Funeral director?) represented by T.I. Smail
Informant:   M. Till ,  constable, Christchurch.
                         _________________
* 1 x Male - 26 :   I think I probably forgot to mention, that Thomas's (1958) death notice showed "in his 87th year" meaning he was born c. 1872 - that tallies with age 24 for marriage in 1896.
                           
The "Gloucestershire Look ups board" :    Absolute top marks to "Cazay" who not only supplied great census info but amazingly found (1871), John RICHINGS'  deserted wife Sarah Ann ("husband left 7 years") and a daughter, Elizabeth Jane (9).
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=262672

JAP  :) ~  many thanks for the information and links you've added at "Gloucester" - much appreciated.

So, the combination of death cert info and census data perhaps "tell a story"  ?

Cheers

Lu      :)

PS:    Have abbreviated this from my original "LOST" posting so I can get on to the other messages.
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Saturday 20 October 07 05:42 BST (UK)
Hello  there  Lucy  and  Jap

No  one else  has  got onto  this thread which  is such  a  shame as  it is very very  interesting.

A scenario  for  you
Annie  Morinini  widow  didn't mary  Mr  Richings 
1.  Because he was allready  married in  England  (As  dear Cazay  has  found  the details   :-*)  He didn't want to commit  bigamy  just  live  in sin  ;D  I wonder  if  there was a will for  Mr. Morini.  Still begggars  the question  why did she go  to  NZ ?

2.  Annie being a widow  maybe  there was a clause  to  her  husband's will that prohibited  her  from  marrying again  or should  would  loose the  dosh?  That  is  possible I  have seen that  in  an offshot of  my  familiy  lines.


Kind regards Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Saturday 20 October 07 05:51 BST (UK)
Hi  Jenn     :)

NO  headstones  .... yes, must say I found that a little surprising.   But hey, this seems to be a mighty weird family!

The NZ Gene. Society, many years ago, transcribed headstones for most NZ cemeteries (and info has been added / updated, since) ... so that's the data which I have consulted.    (I'm in Wellington - the Sydenham Cemetery is in Christchurch, South Island).

Cheers
Lu

PS:  Jenn if you go to info just posted - and the link to Gloucester - you'll see what's unfolding.
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Saturday 20 October 07 05:53 BST (UK)
thanks  Lucy  have had a  look.  it  would appear  your tale  is  unfolding nicely  for  you.

kind regards Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Kea on Saturday 20 October 07 06:08 BST (UK)
Quote
No  one else  has  got onto  this thread which  is such  a  shame as  it is very very  interesting.

Hi there,

I have been following this thread because I noticed the Christchurch link and that's where I live. What a fascinating family and great detective work from all of you!
I have got so caught up that I visited the Sydenham Cemetery today and tried to find the plots for Anni Morinini and John Richings. Alas - no luck. Possibly there were never any headstones erected but many of the graves are overgrown and the headstones have fallen over. I also had trouble reading the map!! But I had a good look.

Lu - if there's anything else I can do to help from the Christchurch end, let me know.

Kind regards,

Stephanie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Saturday 20 October 07 06:31 BST (UK)
OK, more thoughts.

My understanding is that it was common for marriages to be regarded as effectively non-existent after the absence of one party for 7 years - especially when they were living at opposite ends of the world.  Certainly Sarah Ann (BLIZARD) RICHINGS formally re-married in 1875 and started a new family - long before the death of John/Thomas.  I wonder whether John/Thomas knew about this!  It would be interesting to see Sarah Ann's second marriage cert - did she portray herself as a widow or did she have John/Thomas officially declared dead!

John/Thomas RICHINGS left England say 1864.  He might have gone first to Victoria, met up with Annie (HEASMAN) MORININI there, and then they bolted off to NZ to escape the wrathful husband Alexander MORININI - who proceeded to chase them (perhaps with his and Annie's baby daughter) but sadly went on the ill-fated General Grant.
But perhaps not ...

Who knows!  I have a "bolter" in my family - she really took some finding.  She left her husband and little child in Melbourne VIC, and took off with a chap who was on the run from the Navy.  Their path can be traced by births of children (registered under various names) - from Melbourne VIC to Brisbane QLD, then back to South Melbourne VIC, then to Balmain and Paddington and Randwick in NSW.  She died in Sydney NSW in 1903 aged 38; the informant was the Navy deserter but the only marriage and child listed on the dc is that with the original husband - the 5 children she'd had with the Navy deserter obviously didn't exist!

Good idea about a will for Alexander MORININI - but how to find ...

I'd really like to be able to trace backwards from the first documented appearances in NZ as RICHINGS of each of the dramatis personae who have been seen officially with that name - at present, I think that would be John/Thomas backwards from 1881 (Dunedin bankruptcy), Thomas backwards from 1896 (first marriage), Lily backwards from ?? (date of marriage), and James backwards from 1818 (date of enlistment).

Cheers,

JAP
PS: Stephanie, what a great effort going searching for the headstones  :)
I have a Great Grandfather buried (according to his death certificate) in Avonside Cemetery in 1878.  But there would be no question of a headstone!  He'd undoubtedly be in a public grave - he was a labourer who died at the age of 29 leaving his wife with 6 children under 10 and another one on the way ...
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Saturday 20 October 07 07:12 BST (UK)
Hello  there

Stephanie - what a  lovely  person  you are to  have gone and checked the cemetery  for Lu,  oh  Well done  indeed. :D :D

My  own  gggf was a bolter  left a  wife and two  children  behind  in  Durham  Came  to  Oz married  the same  year he got  here,  fathered another 12 children  6 in Victoria  and 6 in NSW. His  wife Mary Ann had to wait  the seven  years  and then  remarried  she died  not  long after  the second  marriage  poor girl.  The  family  stories tell of a  lovely  hard working  family  man!  God  if  they ever knew  the truth,  his  second wife was a staunch catholic  to  boot.

Regards Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Sunday 21 October 07 02:21 BST (UK)
Hi  All    :)

Just to let you know that I haven't gone "missing in action"  !

Many thanks for the recent messages - will get back shortly on those.

Electoral details seem of utmost importance right now  ...  I'm headed to the library to "trawl through the 'fiche" - ("gone fiche-ing" ) !

As always, so VERY appreciative of all your help, expertise and ongoing interest and support.

Back a.s.a.p

Kind regards

Lu      :)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Kea on Sunday 21 October 07 02:28 BST (UK)
Hi Lu and co.

I have just found John Richings in BLENHEIM in 1870!!  ;D

If you do a search on Papers Past for John Richings, there is an article from the Nelson Examiner and NZ Chronicle of 16 March 1870 regarding a court case - John Richings vs Monroe Brothers! John, butcher of Blenheim was accused of embezzlement. Apparently the accounts he kept were very loose and he didn't weigh the animals properly!
There is also a small snippet from the Otago Witness of 1881 regarding his insolvency.
He does sound like a dodgy character.

Link to Papers Past coming up...

Regards,
Stephanie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Kea on Sunday 21 October 07 02:32 BST (UK)
Here's the link ...

http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast

 :)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Sunday 21 October 07 09:09 BST (UK)
Hi   JAP   :)     In response to post # 57

Many thanks.   Convoluted family indeed !

*   John / Thomas RICHINGS:
(Explanation - some of the "John" info I have, came via an experienced researcher in Blenheim area as "trade" for me supplying her details on our common ancestors.   She searched local records for Richings births / deaths - she only found "John Richings - at Wairau Electorate (Blenheim area) 1875" :   (At this stage I was looking for "THOMAS").
New info found today:
1874-75   Wairau Electorate   (there are TWO listing for John)
(#406)   RICHINGS :  John - Lower Wairau, Household*,
- house on Section 36 :
(#407)   RICHINGS:   John  - Blenheim, Household,
- house on Section 21,  Wynen ?  Road,
1875-76    Wairau Elect.
RICHINGS:   John - Lower Wairau, Household
- Omaka - house on Section 26 :
(Nothing found earlier than this in Wairau.  *Household - refers to voting qualification - other qual's. were "Leasehold and Freehold" - "residential" may be rented accommodation?)
Circa 1880 :  Possibly in Dunedin ?  Have NOT YET located John / Thomas in this area - maybe his was a rural address - there are a lot of "electorates" which need searching.  (Frustrating) !

*    Lily RICHINGS :

Married : Francis COATES - 19 April 1901 - at Registry Office, Christchurch, she aged 27 (Francis - 40) :  [ NOTE:   Their "supposed" firstborn, Ivy Elizabeth - my unknown grandmother - appears to have been born 1899 !   There is a birth registered in that same name and year - I have cert. - it is the WRONG person !  Grrr !   Extensive search done under different names - nothing !  Another un-registered birth, I suspect ] !
ITM notice shows Lily was resident in Christchurch - 9 years (c. 1892).
Death of Lily COATES (Richings) : 16 September 1917 at age 43 (this age also in her death notice) :

*   Thomas RICHINGS (junior) :
Marriage - at Registry Office, Christchurch - 9 June 1896.
Thomas - (24) - butcher - born Blenheim - usual address Christchurch.   Parents:  Thomas Richings, butcher and Annie,  nee Heasman.     Married, Margaretta Fairbrass (she seems to have been known mostly as "Margaret") .
Divorce :   Thomas was the Petitioner.  Grounds - desertion (by M.)  27 February 1906.     Decree (not sure if this was Nisi or Absolute date) ?  - 3 April 1911.
Thomas Richings did NOT re-marry.
WILL POST electorate details after this - there's something "fishy" about them.

*  James RICHINGS:      1918 Army enlistment (address at Balclutha given - I can't find James on E/Roll ).
Yes,  Francis COATES ... definitely from Raffrey.

Phew !

Cheers

Lu     :)


Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Sunday 21 October 07 09:15 BST (UK)
Lu,

I'll have to think through all this information.

But can't you imagine them all perched up on your local clouds cackling madly - but perhaps a bit uncertainly as you close in on them  ;D

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Sunday 21 October 07 09:35 BST (UK)
Hi   JAP  

.....  continues  - Electoral details :

1890    Halswell Electorate (rural Christchurch)

RICHINGS:   Thomas - butcher - Wilderness Road *
- residential voting qualification.
* Wilderness Road is a source of annoyance to me - I found TWO - one is in Southland (ie far South Island), the other is in Kaikoura - roughly 1/2 way between Blenheim and Christchurch ?   (Based on all this new John / Thomas info - 1890 is too early to be Thomas junior if he was born 1872 - I'm pretty sure 21 was voting age) ?

1896     Christchurch Electorate

RICHINGS:   Thomas - labourer - Spencer Street - Addington
(Thomas, junior and wife Margaret are shown at this address
in 1900).

1896   (ALSO) !   Riccarton Electorate (Suburban Ch. Ch.)

RICHINGS:    Thomas - Jacksons Lane - Papanui -
- butcher and dealer - residential qualification.

I suspect from this info, that John Richings also used the name "Thomas"  when registering to vote ?
What do you think ?

Cheers   -   Lu       :)

Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Sunday 21 October 07 10:15 BST (UK)
Especially for  KEA     :)

Dear Stephanie

Thank you so very much for your wonderful gesture in visiting the cemetery.    That was just SO SPECIAL  !

And thanks too for your kind offer of help.  So appreciated.

Kind regards

Lu      :)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Kea on Sunday 21 October 07 10:49 BST (UK)
Hi all,

My pleasure Lu. This family history stuff is very addictive!

I've just seen on the NZ board in response to Lu's query about a newspaper death notice for Anni Morinini -  Jean has found a Lily Oates in the same grave as Anni ! This must be Lily Coates. I might have to pay another visit to the cemetery ...

I bet you can't keep up with all of this Lu!  :)

Stephanie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Sunday 21 October 07 10:59 BST (UK)
Hi Lu,

Hard to know - it's touch and go!  That is, whether the electoral roll person was John/Thomas b England 1839, or the very young (but, who knows, possibly just 21 - which, yes, I'd assume to be the voting age though I don't know) Thomas b NZ whenever.  Hey, NZ and South Australia were the earliest places with the vote for women ...  I'd love to sit down with you and go through the electoral rolls  :)  And I'm shaking my fist at all the RICHINGSs (and MORININIs etc) sitting up on those clouds laughing at us ...

Occupations seem to be useless!  All of them seem to have been butchers at one stage.  Even in England they might have started out as butchers and then turned into farmers - as some of them obviously did.  A natural progression!  I'm a many generation Aussie but lived in England for a couple of years - our local butcher (a very superior chap) described himself as a "Butcher and Grazier".

I feel sure (  ::) ) it will all work out in the end  ;D

I'm off to continue watering the garden - currently allowed for 3 hours only once a week; morning or evening on Sunday for even-numbered houses, Saturday for odd-numbered houses.

JAP
PS: Stephanie/Kea, I hate to say that I tried all the 'residents' of the graves/plots and didn't see Lily OATES.  Hmmm - back to square one ...
PPS (later): Couldn't find the torch.  Went out anyway and there were very strange noises.  Thought it was probably native possums (feral Ozzie possums are pests in NZ - here our dear pretty native possums live in inner city gardens (they love eating rose petals) but admittedly do make very strange coughing, growling, etc noises - and are hated by many because they climb into rooves and nest there; I've had possums living in my roof and pee-ing down onto my grand piano!).  I made a lot of noise in case it wasn't possums but whatever it was didn't go away.  I now realize it was probably my neighbour watering his garden   :-[  I've found the torch and am about to go back out ...
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Cazay on Sunday 21 October 07 11:25 BST (UK)
Hi Lu

Sorry to throw this in here when you are in the midst of John Richings findings but found this entry in the Index to Orphan Schools.

www.records.nsw.gov.au             (online indexes)

Date of Petition 18 Oct 1856

Ann Heasman 8
Rachel Heasman 6

Parents are William and Jane Heasman

Bmd index - V18463367 31A/1846 William R Heasman
V18463368 31A/1846 Ann A
Parents are William and Jane E Heasman

Consecutive numbers and would contain the same information as given in Vic records, just thought I would add it.

Cazay
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Sunday 21 October 07 11:49 BST (UK)
Christchurch City Council Cemeteries Database
Result Detail
Surname: Oates
First name(s): Lily
Date of death: Sunday, 16 September 1917
Cemetery:  Sydenham Cemetery
Date of burial: Tuesday, 18 September 1917
Block number:  6C
Plot number:  46
Age:  43 years
Address:  199 Lyttelton St, ChCh
Occupation:  Married
Place of birth:  NZ
Years in New Zealand:  Life
 
*********************************************

Christchurch City Council Cemeteries Database
Result Detail
Surname: MORININI
First name(s): ANNI
Date of death: Tuesday, 26 May 1931
Cemetery:  Sydenham Cemetery
Date of burial: Thursday, 28 May 1931
Block number:  6C
Plot number:  46
Age:  85 years
Address:  62 HOON HAY ROAD
Occupation:  WIDOW
Place of birth:  VICTORIA
Years in New Zealand:  Unknown


regards Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Sunday 21 October 07 12:12 BST (UK)
Hi Stephanie  and   JAP    :) ;)

.... yes, have just spotted Jean's message, wonder how she found that ?     Indeed, it is my Lily !     (Often wondered why she wasn't on the CCC cemeteries d/base) ?

KEA - have just PM'd you - BRILLIANT info from PapersPast - stunning work Detective Stephanie - many, many thanks.

Oh JAP  ....  I'm still laughing over your clouds comment - very good!       I'm now seeing " butchers on clouds, still stringing their sausages;  telling "porkies"  !   (Yep, it's been a long and exciting day) !   Boy, what did I do to get landed with a family like this ?

I envy you JAP - watering the garden - so therapeutic!   I'm endeavouring to work my way systematically, through all today's great information and messages ... but oh, how sleep beckons.    (Husband also turned power off for good part of the morning - electrical repairs - holiday weekend, they get carried away, blokes ;  ....no power,  no 'puter -  sure does slow a girl down) !

Thanks for your continuing help and support  ...  and look out RICHINGS ...  we're coming to get YOU !

Cheers    LU      :)


Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Sunday 21 October 07 12:32 BST (UK)
Dear CAZAY    :)

... was just on my way over to Gloucester board to "see" you .... it's been such a long day  .... and so sorry for the delay in not acknowledging your earlier brilliant efforts.   Will catch up with you shortly.

Wow !    This latest HEASMAN info ... oh my goodness!
It's looking a tad, sad !      (Absolutely fine to throw it in here  ... it's the RICHINGS - HEASMAN - RICHINGS, ROUNDABOUT ....  and others will enjoy seeing this).

ANOTHER WONDERFUL FIND Cazay!    Thank you so very much.

Kind regards

Lu    :)


 
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Sunday 21 October 07 13:10 BST (UK)
Hello Cazay,

That's a great find on the Orphan Index.

We have (see earlier in the thread) births for children of William HEASMAN & Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE.

Including:
*William Richard 1846 St James.
*Ann Amelia 1846 St James (possibly Annie who m Alexander MORININI in 1862).
*Rachel 1848 St James (and her two marriages and children to them) plus further info including Rachel's death (as Rachel PARKIN in 1938, Kew).
*Amelia 1851 St Peters ...

Lu, there is obviously more of this convuluted story to unravel.

JAP
PS: Therapeutic watering!  Well, perhaps so were it by choice.  But when it's courtesy of vile watering restrictions (while people are still allowed to fill spas and pools; and irrigators are still allowed to irrigate greedy crops like rice and cotton - in Australia!) it is traumatic rather than therapeutic  ;D
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Monday 22 October 07 02:55 BST (UK)
That was a brilliant find i.e. Lily OATES (sic) in the same grave as Anni (sic) MORININI.

As far as I can recall, although we've all assumed that Thomas RICHINGS (b ca 1872) and Lily RICHINGS (b ca 1874) are children of John RICHINGS & Annie (HEASMAN) MORININI, the sole documented RICHINGS/MORININI link prior to this find was that the addresses on the death certificates of Annie MORININI (1931) and Thomas RICHINGS (1958) were identical.

Now there are, in the same grave, Annie (HEASMAN) MORININI and her presumed daughter Lily 'OATES' (Lily RICHINGS already known to have married Francis COATES in 1901, and to have died in 1917).  Fantastic.

I wonder whether there would be anything more to be found out e.g. a record of who purchased the plot etc etc.

Apparently, for a small fee, the Christchurch City Libraries will do a genealogical search for persons buried in various cemeteries including Sydenham.
See:
http://www.ccc.govt.nz/Parks/Cemeteries/Genealogical.asp

JAP 
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Monday 22 October 07 04:20 BST (UK)
Hi   ALL    :)

Must give credit here to KEA who introduced us, a little earlier on,  to the PapersPast link and all it offered - (thanks Stephanie).

I thought I'd try a search - February 1898 - to see if there might be something further regarding John / Thomas RICHINGS' "nasty accident":    This from page 1 "Star" (Christchurch) - Thursday, 3 February 1898 - a little "new" info:

" An accident occurred on the Northern railway line last evening by which Mr. John RITCHENS *, more commonly known as "Tom" RITCHENS, lost his life. .......
Ritchens, who was a dealer in a small way, was about 59 years and was well known at the Addington yards for a number of years.   ......   He leaves a wife and a grown-up son and daughter. "
[*  RITCHENS - the rival newspaper ("Press") had him listed as "Thomas RICHARDS".     His alias "Tom" is confirmed here and children specified as "son and daughter" ]:

Cheers     Lu
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Monday 22 October 07 04:37 BST (UK)
Hello  there Lucy

Jjust a question  for you  that  you  may  have allready  answered  in  one  of  the  postings

I  know You  checked  the  newspapers for  the death of  Anne  Morinini ?  or  did  you check  for Anne Richings?

kind regards Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Monday 22 October 07 05:23 BST (UK)
Hi Jenn   :)

Good question !     I was just looking for - Annie MORININI (but in saying that, I think I would probably have spotted the "RICHINGS" name had it been there).    Annoyingly, the newspapers I viewed (and I remember this distinctly), had been filmed in a manner whereby the left-hand columns of same, (where BDM notices appear),  were "curled under"  thus distorting the print.   That is to say, I imagine the papers were in some sort of "bound" form (down the "spine" ) when they were filmed so the pages could simply be flipped over - rather than spreading them out "flat" for filming.

Ah .... but your question reminds me that I should not just have relied on this one obvious source !    Thanks Jenn, will get stuck in tomorrow and search the other newspapers.

Cheers       Lu    :)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: gennig on Monday 22 October 07 11:14 BST (UK)
Hi Lucy

These was on the Victorian Indexes.

Mary Ann HESIMAN christened 1843 St James Melbourne Reg: 13193 Parents: William & Jane

Marion CALDWELL died 1890 South Melb aged 43 parents: William HEASMAN & Jane Elizth ELMORE Reg:

Marion HEASMAN married John BALLI  1863 Reg: 1380
Children:-
James BALLI born 1864 Reg: 1926 Daylesford (mother listed as Mary Ann ISSMAN)
George BALLI born 1865 Reg: 14820 Daylesford (mother listed as Marion ESMOND)

John BALLE died 1867 Reg: 6304 Born: Switzerland

regards


Genni
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Monday 22 October 07 11:40 BST (UK)
Hello  there

Genni  oh  that is another interesting  find  so  now  there is  another daughter married  at a  very young  age  but  that seem  to be quite exceptable  then  doesn't it.

I must read  the  entire  thread  again  to see if  the deaths of Willam  and jane  have been  found. ;D

Kind regards Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Monday 22 October 07 12:58 BST (UK)
Hi Genni      :)

That is excellent information !    Thank you so much.

And aren't all the different spellings of surnames interesting ?     (I guess though names were written as they "sounded").    The child Mary Ann, christened 1843, was on the passenger list - 1841 "Alexander" - though not on the 1841 census at Middlesex with parents and sister.  Seems she must have been born shortly before the familys departure for AUS.   So that's wonderful that you've found her - had thought perhaps that she had not survived the voyage.

"Marion" (d. 1890) is a "new one" - seems to have been born c. 1847, and with siblings a year either side!   Wow, these Heasman's sure did their "bit" to boost the population in a hurry!     

That's a super effort on your part Genni, in finding these and the additional info on marriage / children is so helpful.       Many thanks again.

Kind regards

Lu         :)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Monday 22 October 07 13:31 BST (UK)
Hi  Jenn   :)

What a collection of "Heasmans" (and variations) we're building up !    A wonderful find by Genni !

Yes, would be great to find the parents William and Jane Elizabeth   ...  I'm thinking they're out there somewhere, but likely indexed (or buried) under another "weird" spelling of the surname ?

After "CAZAY's" posting, re:  the Orphan school listing - October 1856 -  Ann Heasman (eight) and Rachel (6),  I remembered that there was a boy named "George" (b.c. 1866 - died aged 4 in 1870) who's parents were William and Jane Elizabeth.    (see JAP's post # 13).

I'm just trying to figure out ...  that if one or other of the Heasman parents died circa 1856,   then "how so"  there is a child born to "them" around 1866   ? ? ?

Wonder if the children could be admitted to an Orphan school, if they weren't actually "orphans" ?     Puzzling ?

Cheers       Lu
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Monday 22 October 07 18:47 BST (UK)
Hi again Lu,

Yes, like you I'd think that Mary Ann, christened 1843, is the Mary Ann said to be aged 1 on the 1841 passenger list.  Especially as we found a christening for Jane Elizabeth (age 3 on the passenger list) in London but not one for Mary Ann, and that Mary Ann isn't with the family in the 1841 census, and that we couldn't find a registration of her birth in England.

Genni's 'Marion' is surely Mary Ann (note her given name on the birth of James BALLI).  And ages on death certs are notoriously unreliable!  Perhaps, after the death of John BALLI, when she presumably re-married to a Mr CALDWELL, he might have been a younger man and she might have told a little fib - not unknown  :).

From the information on the NSW State Records site
http://www.whitepages.com.au/wp/initResSearch.do
it seems that the Orphan Schools were for needy and destitute children as well as actual orphans.  And remember that both parents were named on the Petition so they must have been alive at the time.

As for George, who knows ...  Perhaps the age at death on the index is wrong ...

I guess that many of the questions could be answered by purchase of all the certificates and other documentation.  But that might mean that you would end up destitute  ;)

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Monday 22 October 07 22:36 BST (UK)
Hello  there


re the information  on  the State Records offic  NSW

as supplied  by  Cazay ;D

www.records.nsw.gov.au             (online indexes)


Date of Petition 18 Oct 1856

Ann Heasman 8
Rachel Heasman 6

Parents are William and Jane Heasman

Bmd index - V18463367 31A/1846 William R Heasman
V18463368 31A/1846 Ann A
Parents are William and Jane E Heasman


here is a  little snippet from  the information  therein

Quote
Who was eligible for admission?

The children were normally between the ages of three and ten years and not eligible for admission to the Orphan Schools. Every child admitted (including voluntary admissions) was to remain the responsibility of the Institution until aged 19 or, in the case of a female marrying earlier, until her marriage.



If  these  girls  had  to stay  there  until  their marriage  maybe  that  might explain  why they  married so  young.  Anything  to  get  out  of  such  dreadfull  places.

A  copy  of  the  entry  would  be very  interesting!  They  may have been  put  into care by  their parents!


kind regards Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Tuesday 23 October 07 11:29 BST (UK)
Hi    JAP    and   Jenn   :)  :)

Many thanks for those thoughts and for the additional information  ... ['fraid my thinking had been a little more obscure].

Have spent about 3 hours today going through electoral rolls
[public holiday here yesterday, an enforced break from searching] .... it was a big effort, and the results not great.
However ....  have just happened upon info from a newspaper which places John RICHINGS in Blenheim in May of 1869 [a year earlier than the date of his court case].   There's also other helpful info which suggests a search in another district!      Will post just as soon as I've got it all sorted.

Cheers        LU
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Tuesday 23 October 07 23:35 BST (UK)
Hi   ALL     :)

John RICHINGS - BANKRUPTCY RECORD.

Have just been advised by Archives NZ at Dunedin, that despite its 1881 vintage, this record IS able to be photocopied !    Order placed ....  [and thankfully it's not going to cost me the "arm" or "leg", I'd imagined] !    Next instalment in this saga, not too far away I hope ?

Cheers      LU
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: gennig on Wednesday 24 October 07 09:51 BST (UK)
Hi



The Heasman family appear to be in NSW, in 1856.  Jane Heasman married Charles Wilkinson there in 1856.  They came back to Vic and then returned NSW

Details as follows:-

Jane HEASMAN married Charles WILKINSON ref: 844/1856
Children:-
Male born Chippendale 1858 died 1858
Female born Chippendale 1860 died 1860
Male born Chippendale 2934/1861 died in Victoria aged 11mths named Walter 1862 reg: 1089 birth place listed as Sydney
Laura born Emerald Hill Vic 1867 Reg: 8087

Jane E WILKINSON died Granville NSw 1919/22654 (Heasman listed in father column)

William R HEASMAN married Harrul (believe it should read Harriet) J NEWBY Wellington NSW 511/1878
William R HEASMAN died Wellington NSW  6810/1897 parents listed as unknown.

Regards


Genni



Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Wednesday 24 October 07 10:01 BST (UK)
Genni,

Fantastic!

A brilliant addition to the whole convoluted saga!!

I think I'm going to have to try to post a summary of where we are to date with children of William & Jane Elizabeth - otherwise I'll spend ages each time I come back to this thread reading back over the story!  It will help me even if no-one else is interested  ;D

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Wednesday 24 October 07 10:06 BST (UK)
Hello  there Genni

I  must admit  to being a  little confused  here.
Are  you saying  the the  Heasman  moved up  to  NSW where  William  died and  Jane married This Wilkinson chap?

or did  they  have a daughter old enough to  have married  then?

regards Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Wednesday 24 October 07 10:12 BST (UK)
Hello  there Genni

ok  so  the DAUGHTER  JANE ELIZABETH  born  in  the  uk 1838c  has married in NSW.

Boy  a very  topys turvy  thread  isn't it?

kind regards Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Wednesday 24 October 07 10:59 BST (UK)
POTTED SUMMARY OF THE FAMILY OF

William HEASMAN (however spelled) & Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE

PART 1

This summary has now been re-posted within Posts 275-277 on Page 19 of the thread.

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Wednesday 24 October 07 11:41 BST (UK)
Hi Genni   :)

Thank you SO much !    That is a wonderful find !

And, TWO in one hit !    Jane Elizabeth (the younger) and her brother William Richard HEASMAN.    GREAT !    I think all the children have now been found ?

There's just the mystery, of where the parents, Jane Elizabeth (Aylmore) and William HEASMAN are buried?   (But hey ...  what's another mystery  .... seems like there's one happening every 5 minutes in this thread) !

Most appreciative of your efforts Genni , thanks again.

Kind regards
Lu




Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Wednesday 24 October 07 11:52 BST (UK)
Oh   JAP  !

 ..... you're BRILLIANT   !     Truly !   

That is a great summary ...  great presentation.   Take a bow !

Cheers
LU

   
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Cazay on Wednesday 24 October 07 12:32 BST (UK)
H everyone  :)

Another bit of info from Genni's great find........

Buried Wellington General Cemetery

http://www.ozgenonline.com/aust_cemeteries/

William Heaseman died 13 May 1896 56 yrs
Harriet Jane Court died 29 August 1918 65 yrs (a photo of the headstones too)

Looks like Harriett remarried after William died.....
8140/1905 James Court/Harriett J Heasman Wellington

death - Harriett J Court 11807/1918 Wellington
Mother, Rebecca
Father, Edward K

Lu, have you thought about writing a book when all this is over............or will it be?

Cazay

Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Wednesday 24 October 07 12:45 BST (UK)
Oh   CAZAY   :) :)

What can I say ?   More of your BRILLIANCE !
Thank you so much.

[Was just about to "slope" off to bed - we're 3 hours ahead of Oz at present - daylight saving .... so it's into the wee hours here]!   
But, spotted your incoming message .... knew it would be MORE great news from you !

Blimey  ... I don't think this will ever be finished !
And as for a book  ...  forget it !

I'VE GOT ALL YOU WONDERFUL HELPERS, LINED UP FOR A SHARE IN THE MOVIE RIGHTS TO THIS "STORY"   !

Thanks again

Kind regards
LU
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Cazay on Wednesday 24 October 07 13:04 BST (UK)
Lu

This is an amazing thread.........so intriguing, and there always seems to be something popping up in the records time and again.

So glad that we don't have daylight saving here  8)

Cazay
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Thursday 25 October 07 02:45 BST (UK)
It is an amazing thread - especially when you think how it started with Lu asking for information about some RICHINGS people who turned out to be irrelevant.

And the thread might well have stopped with Lu's thanks at Reply #8!

But then Jenn (Reply #9) asked Lu whether there was any information Lu wanted - and that led to Lu explaining her RICHINGS/HEASMAN puzzle and now we are at Reply #102  not to mention the other thread!

I think Jenn must have been psychic to have asked that question!

Back to the genealogy.

Here's a strange entry:
ANDERSON Elizabeth Ann, born 1871 Coll, father Peter, mother Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE #8821

Was there another Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE around?  I haven't found other mentions.

"Our" Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE, 22 in 1841, would have been 52 by 1871 ...

Is there something fishy going on?

Especially given the death of 4yo George HEASMAN in Vic in 1870, parents William HEASMAN & Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE.
We haven't found a birth for George, and there's a huge gap between the previous known child (Amelia bap 1851) and George ...

JAP
PS: Daylight savings starts this coming weekend in South Australia - I hate it!
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Thursday 25 October 07 03:28 BST (UK)
Hello  there

I  have  been  thinking about  this  thread  quite a bit  ( no  it  didn't  hurt well not too much  that is) and wonderring which  Aussie certificate  might be  the  most beneficial  if any  that is, given as  there is SO much  information  now  to  hand.

As JAP also suggests the  death  of George  in 1870  has me  the most intrigued.  Who  and where was  he  born  who  is  the informant  on  his  death certificate, where is  he  buried  (who is in  with  him)  will that  gives  us  a  clue  to  his  parents  whereabouts?

regards Jenn

(We  in  QLD  don't have daylight saving  but  it  still does  affect  quite a  few  things  for  us  northerners 8)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Thursday 25 October 07 04:13 BST (UK)
Hi Jenn,

That is excellent thinking.  I hadn't remotely thought of that but, as you say, a download ($A17.50) of George's death cert might provide many clues (of course it might not but I guess that's always the risk).

If only it weren't for the age of Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE, I'd be tempted to dream up the following scenario:
William HEASMAN dies (somewhere, sometime); widow Jane takes up with Peter ANDERSON; ca 1866 she has George (birth record not found) with Peter but has to record him as HEASMAN (instead of ANDERSON) because she isn't married to Peter; 1870 George dies as HEASMAN - recorded thus for the same reasons; 1871 she has Elizabeth Jane Ann with Peter - Elizabeth Jane Ann is recorded as ANDERSON either because Jane Elizabeth is by then married to Peter (but no record found) or because they lied ...

JAP
Being a night owl is why I hate daylight savings.  Added to which is the fact that our standard time is already about 1/2 hour out (i.e. we are effectively always on ds of 1/2 hour if that makes sense).  And think about the poor people living in the far West of South Australia - especially kids in the bush getting up to catch buses for the lengthy trip to school ...
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: gennig on Thursday 25 October 07 05:27 BST (UK)
Hi

Just because a birth was registered in 1871 doesn't mean the birth took place then.  Mind you women do give birth to children in their 50's.

Stamp duty was paid if they didn't register it on time.  I know because I have a copy of a birth certificate, which was registered later.

I was thinking along the same lines as JAP with regards to Anderson/Heasman.

regards

Genni

PS: I love daylight savings, the extra daylight is great.  I'd rather have the extra light in the evening than in the morning.   



Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Thursday 25 October 07 05:57 BST (UK)
Genni,

You were ahead of me!  It was only today that I dreamt up my scenario - after Jenn drew particular attention to George  :)

Of course a late (or late-ish) birth after a very long gap is (and was) possible - though perhaps relatively unusual at that time?  It does seem to be the most likely explanation.  And is yet another twist/turn in the saga.  If Jane Elizabeth (AYLMORE) HEASMAN truly was 22 in 1841 (census and passenger list), and especially if she is the one bap Aug 1818, then we have a pretty good handle on her age. 

Even leaving aside the fates of William HEASMAN & Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE, another question seems to be what happened to Elizabeth Jane ANDERSON (birth reg Vic 1871) ...

This whole story may yet have a way to run ...

JAP
PS: I'm envious of people who like getting up early - because I'm keen on birdwatching ...
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Thursday 25 October 07 09:01 BST (UK)
Hi   JAP   and   Jenn   :)  :)

Goodness gracious !

Elizabeth Ann / Elizabeth Jane   ANDERSON  ???
Peter ANDERSON  ???     [Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE ... mmm  ... if the spelling had been "AYLMER" or another variation ?  But AYLMORE ?    Hmmm ?]

Oh yes, there is something "fishy" going on !   

I wish I could add something (intelligent) to the already great thinking provided by you both.

I have a theory (of sorts) but it is dependent on what happened to Charles WILKINSON, the husband of Jane Elizabeth HEASMAN (the younger).   Wonder if there might be a death record available for him ?

I just need to do a bit of working out re:  the registration areas for some of these births too.

Cheers
Lu

[PS: Will be back later in evening - need to keep my phone line free (on cruddy dial-up here) - kid is ringing from London shortly - (probably to solicit "funds" ... again) ! ]

Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Friday 26 October 07 11:02 BST (UK)
Hi Everyone    :)

No, I haven't disappeared altogether -  have just spent 3 long, exhausting days in libraries, Archives, and searching old newspapers (to the point where I can no longer "see straight") in order to get answers to some of the earlier questions asked.

SUMMARY :   RICHINGS /  Morinini

1)       Annie MORININI :   -  completed final checking today by searching the handwritten probate registers and in-house records at Archives NZ.     There was NO probate file or will for Annie.

2)       John / "Thomas"  RICHINGS :
Extensive search of electoral / postal directories :
a.     No evidence of him 1880 - 83 at Dunedin or surrounding areas.  (His bankruptcy files, yet to be received, may contain additional info ?)   Whether as a bankrupt, he lost other liberties, such as voting rights, (which may be a reason for not appearing of e/rolls), is not known.

New info. from "Nelson Mail" newspaper (see link in following post), has him arriving at Blenheim in May 1869, prior to which he was in the nearby Nelson region.   (No evidence of him on Nelson e/rolls).

b.      He appears in Wise's Directory (postal) 1878 -79
as:     RITCHINGS (sic), John - butcher - Blenheim.
In 1887 - 88 (Wises's) there is a listing for:
          RITCHENS (sic), Thomas - butcher - Riccarton (suburban Christchurch) - this same entry also appears in the trade listing of butchers.   [Doubtful this listing is for Thomas the son - he would only have been 15 years old.
One newspaper report on John RICHINGS' accidental death 1898, lists him as "living at lower Riccarton".   Oddly, this "Thomas RITCHENS" does not feature in 1887 electoral listings (10 of) for Christchurch, nor on supplementary lists ?

3)       James RICHINGS :   No evidence of him on electoral rolls etc. in any part of the country.  First sighting is in 1922 at Christchurch.

4)       Annie MORININI :    The 1893 "First Women to Vote" Roll is often a good indicator that the women listed will be found later on electoral rolls.   Annie does NOT appear in 1893 - nor indeed is there any evidence of her ever having been registered to vote.   Even in her "widowhood", she is not listed in postal directories.
                                 -------------------------

Cheers      LU

[PS :    .... and yes Jenn, (psychic or not) we'll hold you wholly responsible (ha, ha,) for triggering what has become an amazing thread ! ]   
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Friday 26 October 07 11:30 BST (UK)
Hi again    :)

Just thought I'd pop this link in which will take you to another newspapers' version, of the trial RITCHINGS v. MONRO BROTHERS - 1870.    (This is much more "readable" and easily understood, and gives a little of J.R.'s background).

http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast

The trial is reported under the banner of "Supreme Court"
and appears on page 2 of each edition, on the following days:     
"Nelson Mail"   1870
Monday, 14 March /  Tues, 15 March / Wed. 16 March :

For the record -  John RICHINGS was perhaps not a total "rotter".    In this trial, in which he was suing the Monro Brothers for accusing him of embezzlement and for wrongful arrest, Richings seemingly has a huge amount of support from the trial judge.    The action was taken to recover the sum of L 435-0-0.     The jury found in favour of Richings but alas, awarded him only 90 odd quid !     Clearly Richings himself, valued to some degree, his own reputation.

Cheers
Lu                :) 
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Friday 26 October 07 11:48 BST (UK)
[
Quote
PS :    .... and yes Jenn, (psychic or not) we'll hold you wholly responsible (ha, ha,) for triggering what has become an amazing thread ! ]

Please now don't put  in all  on  me,  JAP  has  done an extreme amount of searching along  with  others.  I  like  to  be a  bit of a  devil's advocate on  the odd occassion! ;D 

kind regards Jenn

Is  it me or what Munro Brothers    Morinini ??
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Friday 26 October 07 12:36 BST (UK)
Hi Jenn   :)

....   that  was just a little play on JAP's comment.    Referring to posts #8 and #9  ....  where you'd found that Richings mob (I'd first asked about) in England and they turned out to be not related.    I had thought THAT was the end of my search.   But then you asked if I needed any further info  ..... and WOW ....  this "crazy" Richings / Heasman thing, took off in earnest !     

Yes, I'm so grateful for all the truly amazing help and support given by everyone on "this journey" - and especially to both you and JAP for sharing in this from day one.

Kind regards
Lu                       :)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Friday 26 October 07 12:43 BST (UK)
Hello  there Lucy

yes I  knew  you  were  just playing hence my  new  avatar :-*

Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Saturday 27 October 07 07:52 BST (UK)
Hi Lucy

I looked up the orphan records and found the following information
Both Annie and Rachel were admitted 18th Oct 1956
-recommended by Rev J Dunmore Lang.
They both left on 19th April 1859 delivered over their sister Mrs Wilkinson of Redfern by the order of the Hon Principal Secretary.
Mother Jane (dead)
Father William.

I then looked up the bankrupt records of William Heasman in 1855.This is their father -no doubt about it.
I will post the notes in a later message but I am afraid you are going to have to write a book -too good a saga.

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Saturday 27 October 07 08:13 BST (UK)
Hello Annie,

Welcome aboard this amazing thread!

More twists and turns, eh ...

Mother Jane dead!

Father William bankrupt in 1855!

Hmmmmm ....

I'll update my summary (reply #96).

Looking forward to hearing about William.

Best regards,

JAP
PS: And even the redoubtable Rev John Dunmore Lang gets into the act!
http://gutenberg.net.au/dictbiog/0-dict-biogL.html
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Saturday 27 October 07 08:21 BST (UK)
Hello  there

Annie  you  are a  champion  to have done  that  lookup  I  am  sure  Lucy  will be very apprecitative as are  the rest of  us  as  you  have given  more food for thought.

Also  I  note from  one of JAPS summary
. William Richard, bap St James CE, Melbourne Vic 1846 #14885; (also recorded in NSW, V18463367 31A/1846)
     
5. Ann Amelia, bap St James CE Melbourne, Vic 1846 #14886 (also recorded in NSW as V18463368 31A/1846)
     

Were they  twins?  or just baptised  the same  time?


AND George -  what about George
ok  a  possibility  here  perhaps  he  wasn't  4  as  the index's  say  could  that be  in  error  was  he 14 that  puts  his  birth as  1856  the  year  the  girls  were  put  into care.   DId  the  mother died  in Childbirth.   I  mean  what  are  the  odd  of  another couple  with  the same  names as  George's  parents?


regards Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Saturday 27 October 07 08:35 BST (UK)
Hi Jenn,

Hear, hear for Annie's great work!

I've assumed that William Richard and Ann Amelia were bap, but not born, at the same time.  Who knows.  His age at death of 56 in 1897 would give a birth year of 1841.

George remains a puzzle.

Annie, was Jane recorded as dead when the children were admitted, or when they were released?

Jenn, good idea about George perhaps being 14.

But the puzzle of the 'Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE' who had a child (birth reg 1871) in Victoria with a Peter ANDERSON remains.  Now that Jane Elizabeth (AYLMORE) HEASMAN has been killed off, who is this other person of the same name ....

Perhaps William's bankruptcy story (another bankrupt!) will shed some light.

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Saturday 27 October 07 09:08 BST (UK)
Hi

The register just stated under parent's names that Jane was dead.I would say it was when the children were admitted.She was alive in 1855 as you will read in my next post-still typing it out

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Saturday 27 October 07 09:19 BST (UK)
Okay here we go!

William Heasman had debts of £718.6.0!
He had a hotel which is referred to as the Palmer Street Hotel,not sure if this is its name or just location ,or both.
Owed money to the usual suspects Tooth & Co,Tucker & Co ,the butcher etc every one you would expect a hotelier to owe.

 Below is the bit I found most interesting:Dated 20 April 1855

Estate placed under Sequestion on 6th March 1855 and shortly afterward the Assignee was informed that a considerable quantity of property has been fraudently removed from the insolvent's premises a day or two before his insolvency.

The assignee procured a search warrant and in a house at Paddington occupied by one Frederick Alfred Poole and Ebenzer Bransgrove was found and seized a quantity of property ,which several respectable witnesses afterward swore belonged to the insolvent.
Information was filed showing the 3 persons named Heasman,Poole, & Bransgrove were all concerned in the fraudently concealment of the property and a warrant was procured for their apprehension.
Frederick Alfred Poole and Ebenzer Bransgrove were arrested and W M C Stephen the solicitor was employed by the assignee to prosecute.The two prisoners were committed to take their trial at the Criminal sittings of the Supreme Court.At the last sittings (in the early part of the present month)they were brought up and remanded to Prison until the sittings in June next.
The insolvent William Heasman has not yet been apprehended but the Superintendent of Police assures the Assignee that every exhaustions are being made by the force under his command to discover his whereabouts.The property seized under the search warrant is stored at the room.

In the file there is a letter from his wife Jane-she states she has 6 children.And is begging they be allowed to keep their wearing apparel,I have taken a copy of the letter but as my scanner is not working at home ,I will have to take it to work and scan it in.
But will type it out for you as I know you would all like to read a.s.a.p
But it appears that William has done a runner.

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Saturday 27 October 07 09:43 BST (UK)
Hi Ladies

Here is Jane's letter

Not dated

To the creditors of William Heasman
Gentleman I beg most respectfully to solicit your attention while I relate to you my most unfortunate case.I am gentleman the wife of William Heasman and I can with confidence state that when we took the Palmer Street Hotel we had every intention of paying every body their just debts but in an unfortunate moment my husband listened to the evil advice of others and the consequence is I am left with six children in a utterly destitute condition without a farthing to get food for them and even their little clothes taken from them,I am therefore gentlemen compelled to throw my self and children upon your kindness in order that you may commiserate my forlorn  situation and to enable me to get  mine and my poor childrens boxes of clothes.Anxiously a waiting your kind reply or to answer any questions
I am Gentleman yours respectfully
Jane Heasman

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Saturday 27 October 07 11:56 BST (UK)
Dear Annie

Thank you so VERY much.      :)

That is such wonderful (and most helpful) information, and you have clearly gone to a lot of effort to both gather it and post it here.     Your contribution is truly appreciated.    You are indeed   .... a CHAMPION !

Oddly, now that the "Palmer Street Hotel" is mentioned, I recall some time ago, when checking online indexes, seeing a William Heasman, connected with this.   I discounted it simply because I imagined "my William Heasman" was tucked away in his little corner of Victoria, raising his brood, and keeping out of mischief !   There's a lesson in that too, I know,  ..... discount, absolutely nothing !    (And certainly not with this "mob" - Richings and Heasman)!

I so appreciate your efforts Annie ... many thanks again.

Kind regards

Lu      :)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Saturday 27 October 07 12:22 BST (UK)
Hi again Annie

....  was so excited and overwhelmed by all that great info,
I missed your comment about "writing a book".

Hey, I'm thinking BIG   ....  definitely "made for the movies" sort of stuff isn't it?    And all you wonderful contributors, would also get a "slice of the pie" !

Cheers

Lu                :)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Saturday 27 October 07 13:05 BST (UK)
Hi
I found a brief mention of Bransgrove and Poole appearing court.

The Maitland Mercury
Supplement Volume 1, Number 1143 (16 June, 1855)
page 1
http://www.nla.gov.au/ferg/issn/14403676.html

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Saturday 27 October 07 15:53 BST (UK)
Annie, It is wonderful of you to provide all this information.

But the story is getting all too overwhelming.

I'm wondering (perhaps everyone is) whether Jane was in on the con initially?  Obviously she would have been destitute once all their possessions had been sequestrated and William had done a runner.  But, before that, it seems very strange that William could have removed all Jane's clothes and all the clothes of the six children from the place where they lived, and taken them elsewhere, without Jane knowing.

What a sad business it all is.

JAP
PS: The NLA site seems to be down - hope it's back on line in the morning.
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Saturday 27 October 07 23:44 BST (UK)
JAP

I think it was the assignee who took the clothes.In those days wearing apparel was considered part of your assets therefore worth money to help pay back creditors.

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Sunday 28 October 07 00:43 BST (UK)
Hello  there

When  the baliffs  were sent  in they  would  take everything  including clothing,  I  don't reall  there was anything  to  suggest that the clothing  was in  one  place or another/  Had  it been  in  the  home  when  the baliffs came  it  would  have been confiscated  and  then  perhaps  if  it was amongst  the "stolen loot"  once again  it would have been confiscated.  700 pounds in  those days was a  considerable debt,  he must have had  charm  this William Heasman, even though  he was a bounder and a scoundrel to boot ;D

People  were left with  just  the  clothes  they  had  on  indeed  the outer clothing such  as a  coat etc  could also be taken  to  met  the debt.!

Annie  did  this  letter  indicate where Jane and  the children  were  living?

kind regards Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Sunday 28 October 07 05:05 GMT (UK)
Hi Annie & Jenn,

I was referring to the initial move of possessions from (presumably) the Palmer Street Hotel to the place in Paddington where they were "hidden" (i.e. before William was declared insolvent and before the Assignee came into the picture).

But you are quite right that there is no mention of the clothing having formed part of the 'hidden' possessions.  My error.

But perhaps the point still applies i.e. wouldn't Jane have been aware that William was removing possessions (whether or not they included clothing) from the Palmer Street Hotel?  Ah well (what with 6 children and the demands of the hotel) perhaps not ...

JAP   
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Sunday 28 October 07 06:42 GMT (UK)
in Oct 1856  Annie  and Rachel  are sent to  the Orphans school  for three years  and  then  released  into  their sisters care.  We  know that the said sister Jane  marries  in 1856  but  dosen't take  tehm  to  1859?

Jane the  mother says  in  her letter she has  SIX little ones to care for  so  what  happened  to  the other four when two  were put in  the  orphan school ?


We  do  know  the following  information

1. Jane Elizabeth    born 1838 marries Charles WILKINSON, 1856 NSW

2.. Mary Ann           baptised 1843  married  in Victoria  in 1863
3.. William Richard  baptised in 1846  married  in NSW 1878
4.. Ann Amelia        baptised in Victoria in 1846 , married  in Victoria  in 1862
5..Rachel                baptised  Vic 1848 married  in Vic 1865   
6.Amelia                 baptised  Vic 1851 married  in Victoria in 1871


So  we  can see that  after 1859  the other four girls marry  in Victoria,  how did they get  there?

Did William  the  father  abscond  to  Victoria  and  his children  joined  him  there ?



what a  puzzle.

regards Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Sunday 28 October 07 07:27 GMT (UK)
Hi Jenn,

It is indeed a puzzle - as with everything to do with this family of Lu's!

Six children yes.

All perhaps still with Jane snr in 1855.  But by 1856 ...
*Jane jnr old enough to marry in 1856 - that disposes of her.
*Mary Ann probably about 15/16 (given that she was listed as age 1 on the passenger list in 1841) so old enough to go to work.
*William Richard possibly about 13 or so (from his age at death) so perhaps he too could have found work somewhere - perhaps living in with someone.
*Ann Amelia to the Orphan School.
*Rachel to the Orphan School.
*Amelia - only about 5 - might perhaps have stayed with older sister Jane?

But why the family moved to NSW in the first place (after Amelia's 1851 birth in Vic), and why some of the family later returned to Vic, remains just another of the puzzles of this intriguing family.

And we still have the puzzles of George HEASMAN and of the ANDERSON birth.

Not to mention trying to find the death of Jane (AYLMORE) HEASMAN who was reputedly dead at some stage of the time Ann Amelia & Rachel spent in the Orphan School ...

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Sunday 28 October 07 07:44 GMT (UK)
Hello All

I think JAP is on the money as to reasoning why only two of the girls went into the orphanage.

It would be interesting to see who gave Jane permission to marry Wilkinson as she was under age.As with the girls who married in Vic they would of been under age as well.

Mother Jane would have died about the time the change over from Church records to registration-might check inquest register just in case.

Has anyone checked the church registers for the earlier children? interested to see what occupation father has.

Could also check publician licenses to see when Wm Heasman got his hotel.

We still don't know for sure the police didn't catch up with him in the end.Might check the trial of the other two and see if there had been any further developments.

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Sunday 28 October 07 08:12 GMT (UK)
Hi again Annie,

Good ideas - inquest records, and trials re William.

Early Vic church record entries that I have are pretty useless - no info about occupations as far as I can recall.  Others may know more about this.

Sands & Macs directories for Victoria and NSW for all the people who have been mentioned anywhere in this thread (!!) just might give some useful clues?

If nothing's been found, next time I go into the city with some time to spare (hmmm - might be a while) I'll try to remember to go into the State Lib and look up the Sands & Macs.

JAP
PS: Wild weather here!  Today is my (even-numbered house) day for my permitted 3 hours per week of hand-held garden watering.  But fortunately it's pelting down!  Last night I went to a concert in the city (Choir of Westminster Abbey) and decided to catch the bus (trying to be 'green' - which mea culpa I don't usually do although the bus stops right outside my door though infrequently).  On my return, the time seemed to indicate that a return on the bus rather than by taxi might be appropriate.  Except that, on the way to the stop, it started pelting down!  And the bus was about 1/2 hour late - fortunately the stop had buildings one could shelter under.  But the weather and the surroundings were crazy - pelting rain, enormous lightning, reverberating thunder, wild winds, ambulances zooming right left and centre, the occasional fire engine, and poor young things all dressed up for a night on the town running hither and thither in an increasingly bedraggled state - it had been over 30C that day and they, particularly the girls, were all tarted up in teetering heels, the shortest of skirts, and barest of tops.  What a life!  Sorry for rabbiting on ... 
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Sunday 28 October 07 08:22 GMT (UK)
Hi

There is a W Heasman arriving in Sydney on "City of Sydney" 11 May 1860 from Melbourne.
Is this William coming to take his children back to Vic?Timing seems to fit.

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Sunday 28 October 07 08:44 GMT (UK)
Gosh Annie, Where do you find all this amazing information!

And, if it's William, were the police no longer looking for him?

The timing does indeed seem to fit.

Oh, if only the deaths of Jane (snr or jnr) HEASMAN and William HEASMAN could be found (admittedly some pretty wild mis-spellings of the surname have been found).

Looking forward to your next discovery!

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Sunday 28 October 07 08:55 GMT (UK)
Just expanding on William returning to NSW in May 1860 (just articulating points which Annie has clearly recognised).  Obviously one wonders whether he'd been exonerated in the intervening years ...

Jane jnr had an unnamed son in 1861 NSW (low number)
A son named Walter died Vic 1862 aged 11 months (low number)

Annie (Ann Amelia?) m Vic 1862
Marion (Mary Ann?) m Vic 1863
Rachel m Vic 1865
Amelia m Vic 1871

Why can't this pestiferous (sorry Lu!) family give us the other needed facts - death of William and death of Jane.  And explain George HEASMAN (parents William HEASMAN & Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE) who d Vic aged 4 in 1870, and also explain Elizabeth Jane ANDERSON born 1871 Vic (parents Peter ANDERSON & Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE).

Grrr-rr-r!

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Sunday 28 October 07 08:57 GMT (UK)
Hello  there

Annie,  William is  in Steerage  so  doesn't appear to have  found  his  fortune!!!

regards Jenn

http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/search.htm
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Sunday 28 October 07 09:38 GMT (UK)
Hi All      :)

Annie - that's terrific thinking!   

Wish I could help you ALL,  with these AUS searches ....  I feel so utterly useless, sitting as I am, on the other side of "THE DITCH" (NZ) !

JAP - I've just hauled out the dictionary  ....  checking  .... checking .... yes, that "p" word is fine to use !   (Keep anything "stronger", in reserve - you may still need it) !

Jenn - William in steerage  ... bother, the list doesn't tell us whether he was in shackles ? 

Cheers
Lu              :)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Sunday 28 October 07 09:45 GMT (UK)
Hello  there

just  to  add in an extra  bit of trivia  (  we  need it don't we girls such a boring  thread ;D)

there is still a  Palmer Street in Woolloomooloo  and  you will  find hotels bars etc there

regards Jenn   
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Sunday 28 October 07 10:35 GMT (UK)
Hi All,

Jenn, I'm trying to envisage William taking the goods from Woolloomooloo to Paddo in 1855/1856 (and Jane not noticing!!).
Horse and cart or what!  Lu, don't know whether you know this but they weren't particularly great (i.e. not classy) districts back then (fair comment, ladies?) but now things are different.  Paddington, particularly, is very trendy!  About a hundred years ago(!), I actually sailed from Woolloomooloo (always hard to get the right numbers of 'o's and 'l's) for America (well, that's how I remember it).

JAP
PS: Lu: I'll try to stick with fairly reasonable 'p' words especially 'puzzling'; 'pestiferous' was indeed a tad unkind.  ;D
PPS: If funds permit perhaps a download of George's death and the birth of Jane Elizabeth ANDERSON might add to explanations??
Not to forget the HEASMAN/MORININI marriage just for completeness ...
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Tuesday 30 October 07 04:27 GMT (UK)
Hi All    :)

1881 BANKRUPTCY RECORD
    ~  for John RICHINGS - Butcher - of Kaikorai,
             near Dunedin, New Zealand   :

[WARNING:  This is dead boring compared with the excitement provided by William Heasmans' antics] !

IN the Supreme Court of New Zealand - Otago and Southland District :

Declaration of Insolvency, filed 23 May 1881.

Statement of Assets:
   -   Property (estimated value) - household furniture and effects of self, wife and children (at Kaikorai)    L 15-0-0
   -   Book debts in trade                                    L 20-0-0
                                                                           
               TOTAL   L 35-0-0

CREDITORS :  (14 in all - owed a total of L 128-14-0 - Creditors list filed on 1 June 1881)

Stock and Station agents (x 3), Blacksmith, Slaughterman, Dairyman, wool merchant, butchers (x 2), Baker (owed L21-0-0, the largest amount), Hotelkeepers (x 2 - total of L5-16-0), china dealer (owed about L10-0-0) :

[Hmmm...... so the kids were eating him out of house and home judging by the baker's bill  .... and perhaps Annie had a "thing" for fine china ?]

John RICHINGS stated that "during six months last past and upwards, I have resided within the Otago and Southland district of this honorable court"  :

[If anyone is into "handwriting analysis"   ....  J. R. had a very nice, clearly written signature ~ sloping slightly to the right, reasonably bold, but with no flourishes.    The sort of writing an old-fashioned school teacher might give an A+ for ? ]

Cheers
Lu
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Tuesday 30 October 07 04:49 GMT (UK)
 :)

Oooooh !     This Elizabeth Jane ANDERSON (1870 - 1871?) is really bugging me !

DAFT THOUGHT :      ... when the birth was registered (by whomever),  and the question of "mother's maiden name" popped up  ... this (question) is misinterpreted, AND .... the mother's "Mothers' maiden name" (AYLMORE), is given in error  ???

[Jane Elizabeth (the younger), may not herself (on this particular occasion), have registered the birth  ~  perhaps it was done by Peter ANDERSON ?    Or another "rellie" ?

(I'm hiding now ... in case you start throwing bricks at me)!

LU
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Cazay on Tuesday 30 October 07 06:18 GMT (UK)
Lu   :)

You may have already seen this.........but, thought I would add it to the ever increasing info   ???  as I don't think it has been mentioned.

Have to keep referring back to Jap's page 7 on the history of this family   :-\

There was a Thomas Richens, who, along with three other men was charged with assault at Anderson's Bay (Dunedin) in October 1873 (Otago Witness 11 October 1873).  Thomas only got 6 months because it could not be proven that he had thrown a punch to the victim.

I don't think you could really 'not' investigate as there are so many twists and turns along the way.  Maybe there would be some sort of record, such as prison/gaol information as to his being at that time..........well, let's hope anyway.  A signature to compare with that lovely handwriting you have just seen perhaps?

If there is found to be another Thomas Richens in the records somewhere "across the ditch"  then maybe it can be erased.

Also, have looked at the Sand's Directory............a Charles Wilkinson, Clerk (Treasury) is living Cleveland Street Redfern in 1863.

1864 and 1865 also has him at this address but whether or not this is the Charles married to Jane ........... a bit hard to say.  Would really need to find them together on an electoral roll or to match an address from certificate etc, even to know what his occupation was. 

There are quite a few Charles Wilkinsons/Jane Wilkinsons in different suburbs and if they moved from Redfern would be harder to find.

Cazay
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Tuesday 30 October 07 07:25 GMT (UK)
Hi
Hope this works- a copy of Jane's letter

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Tuesday 30 October 07 07:29 GMT (UK)
Cazay,

More great finds!!

You'd have to suspect that this Charles WILKINSON in Cleveland St, Redfern could well be the right one - though Clerk at the Treasury sounds a bit up-market.

I guess the 1856 marriage cert of Charles WILKINSON & Jane HEASMAN would help.  And the records of their children.

A Charles WILKINSON & a Jane had, it seems:
1858 A male b & d Chippendale
1860 A female b & d Chippendale
1861 A male b Chippendale
     A Walter WILKINSON, child of the above couple, born Sydney, died aged 11 months in Victoria in 1862.
1864 A child (no name or sex) b Redfern
Redfern and Chippendale being adjacent suburbs ...
1867 Laura born Emerald Hill, Vic
Were Charles & Jane (or at least Jane) going back and forth between Sydney and Melbourne?

A child, Elizabeth Jane ANDERSON was born in 1871 in Vic, parents Peter ANDERSON & Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE.  

You have to love the Thomas RICHENS punch-up!  Such fun if it is John/Thomas RICHINGS (sorry Lu!).

Lu, perhaps you can put various Oz certificates on your wish list for Santa  ;D  Though perhaps your relatives might not be too happy about what is being disclosed on this thread.

Cazay, oh dear - I'd better get to it and update my summary!  I'll never keep up with the to-ings and fro-ings otherwise.

JAP
PS: Annie, I just read the letter - it really does pull at the heartstrings, doesn't it.
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Tuesday 30 October 07 07:50 GMT (UK)
Not surprisingly (!), my beastly summary has now exceed the maximum allowable number of characters  ::)  I guess I was expecting this to happen but ...

Expletive deleted, expletive deleted  ;D

Anyway, I'll split it into two bits.

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Tuesday 30 October 07 07:51 GMT (UK)
POTTED SUMMARY (ctd) OF THE FAMILY OF

William HEASMAN (however spelled) & Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE

Part 2

This Summary has now been re-posted in Posts 275-277 on Page 19 of this thread.

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Tuesday 30 October 07 08:57 GMT (UK)
Hi Cazay    :)

Yes, thanks, ... I have the info on "Thomas RICHENS" (thug) and have been working feverishly over the past week or so for further details.   NOWHERE can I find what this "dude's occupation was !    And that, I think, is the key to sorting him out.

The Otago Police Gazette gives skimpy details of prisoners who were going to trial (NO occupations stated) !   Additionally there are monthly "inmate release" sheets for several prisons and these give more comprehensive info.    BUT, having searched gazettes from Oct 1873 to Dec 1874, I have failed (so far) to find the release of Thomas Richens !
(Will keep on the "case" though).

I can place John /"Thomas" RICHINGS at or near Blenheim in 1870, and in 1874 thru 1876.    (Perhaps "John" did disappear with his horse and cart to the other end of the South Island in 1873, for a "boys' timeout" type weekend)  ;D

Thanks for checking out SANDS ~ mmm ... Chas. Wilkinson, treasury clerk ...  not sure he quite fits this "mob" ?

Cheers
Lu

PS:   ALSO ... have found an interesting "Charles BLIZZARD" living in the same somewhat remote area as John RICHINGS around 1874.   (BLIZZARD was the surname of J.R.'s wife Sarah Ann, found in Gloucester 1861 + ) :   Will see if someone on Gloucester board can help with census info - I have a few details of this Charles) :
.... never a dull moment on this thread ... eh ?
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Tuesday 30 October 07 09:02 GMT (UK)
Hi Annie   :)

Fabulous to have the copy of Jane's letter  ... (I felt a little tear trickle when I re-read it).   

Thank you so very much.

Kind regards

Lu     :)    :)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Tuesday 30 October 07 09:09 GMT (UK)
Thanks   JAP

Letter to SANTA being written this minute .... and here's hoping "he comes to the party"  ;D   

Do not wish to have my family posting MY bankruptcy records
on a thread like this in 100 years time !

Cheers
Lu     :)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Tuesday 30 October 07 09:15 GMT (UK)
Hello  there
Lucy you  have done remarkably well on  the Aussie side  so  far  no  monies  outlaid in OZ ( is  that  right?)  so  your bankruptcy records  shouldn"t appear  here  unless of course  you decide a  trip over  the Tasman  is warranted!!

regards Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Tuesday 30 October 07 09:47 GMT (UK)
Hi again Lu,

I know what you mean!  But at least if our peccadilloes are posted in 100 years time, we won't know (will we  ??? - or will we be looking down with gritted teeth as we sit on clouds in our white nighties strumming our harps  :o ).

My children's paternal Gggma, a beautiful needlewoman who had a most elegant hand, wrote letter after letter to the bureaucrats after her husband's sudden death in 1869 in country Vic.  Eleanor finally got the land which had been assigned to her (rather rougher) Scots husband - but it cost her dearly in both money and effort.

And my discovering that the tenant-farmer brother of the Scots husband (also a tenant-farmer in Scotland) had been convicted in 1849 in Scotland of forgery & uttering didn't go over at all well with some of his descendants ...  (He was supposed to be transported to Tas but was pardoned following a petition signed by all the worthies and gentry of West Fife, followed a couple of years later by a sad letter to the Home Secretary from his wife Margaret - not as tear-wrenching or sentimental as Jane's.)

I see I've been taken to task (no, not really) elsewhere for the length of my summaries.  Not my fault, I cry - people (including Lu) have just found out far too much on this thread!

A BLIZZARD eh - who knows ...

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Tuesday 30 October 07 10:01 GMT (UK)
Hi Jenn   :)

True, have done very well here, thanks to lots of very kind
people (and yes, will be purchasing certs in due course ~ still gulping at what I've spent this month on OZ search for another of my families ... oh, and not to mention what I've shelled out for NZ records just recently) !

Cheers
Lu  
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Cazay on Tuesday 30 October 07 10:07 GMT (UK)
Hi all  :)

Good Jap, now I don't have to remember to look at page 7 anymore.........

Lu, had another look and found Charles Wilkinson at the same address in 1861.

The trouble is we don't know when he died and there are a few on the NSW bdm's.  Jane died 1919 and there look to be 2 or 3 on the directory, one even has a boarding house in Redfern.........still too hard.

When I get a chance I will have a look at the 1903 NSW electoral roll and see if anything shows for them together.

About that Charles Blizzard........Lu, if you post his details I will check Ancestry, he might come up in one of the census years.

Cazay
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Tuesday 30 October 07 10:32 GMT (UK)
Hi JAP   :)

aw ..... you've just used another "P" word ... (she quietly closes the dictionary).     Hopefully I won't get caught dead in a white nightie .... or upset other cloud dwellers while they're playing their harps and I'm blasting away on my kazoo !

Don't think you can ever find out too much about such a "colourful" family ~  besides, I"m starting to quite like them now!

Yes, Blizzard  ... unusual name in this neck of the woods, worth checking out I feel.

Lu
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Tuesday 30 October 07 10:35 GMT (UK)
Ladies

What do you make on this entry in NSW Orphans-NSW State Records

16 Jan 1873 Wilkinson Florence aged 5yrs
parents Charles and Jane

Can't find a birth in NSW?

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Tuesday 30 October 07 11:03 GMT (UK)
Hi Cazay    :)

Many thanks for your efforts with Charles Wilkinson - yes, it is rather tricky with others of the same name.   Thanks too for the offer to look up 1903 - much appreciated.

Whoops  .. hadn't as yet got to the Gloucester board, but here are details :

Charles BLIZZARD - arrived at Nelson, New Zealand, aboard "John Masterman",  February 1857 - from London, with wife (no name - but initial "M"), and four children.  His occupation - blacksmith.  No place of origin given for any of passengers on this voyage.   (These details are from a newly-posted passenger list - Archives NZ have no record of this vessels' arrival).
Charles BLIZZARD, blacksmith (presumed to be same chap as above) died at and buried in Marlborough NZ, 1890 aged 70 years = (b.c. 1820) :     (He would be similar age to Sarah Ann's father) ?

Have checked all the usual - famSearch, FreeBMD etc. without luck.    Annoying - no place of origin, but found 2 other BLIZZARDS arriving NZ at various times - both from Gloucester, seems the name may have its roots there ?   Just interested to see if he pops up in 1841 or 1851?

Very many thanks again Cazay.

Regards
Lu
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Tuesday 30 October 07 11:09 GMT (UK)
Oh,   SUPER-SEARCHER  Annie !

You have SOoooo  many rabbits in your hat !

W O W   !     (What else can we say) ?

Sure looks might interesting !

Cheers
Lu         :)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: trish251 on Tuesday 30 October 07 11:44 GMT (UK)
Hi Lu

I fear I got lost in the detail of your thread, but noticed the Blizzard query so I had a look at the 1851 and found this family

1851 HO107/ 1794 330/7 Suffolk Woolpit
Address: Green
Charles Blizzard head mar 31 blacksmith Suffolk Old newton
Mary Ann do wife Mar 34 do Langham
Walter do son 3 scholar do Printstone/Drinkstone?
Teliva do daur 1 do do
Edward Greenbury serv U 35 blacksmith do Woolpit

Who were the only one's that instantly matched the Charles with wife M & he turned out to be a blacksmith. A check of FreeBDM may find a couple more children born before 1857

Trish
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: trish251 on Tuesday 30 October 07 11:48 GMT (UK)
Marriage Dec 1850 Charles Blizzard Guiltcross (Norfolk) 13 461
On the same page Mary Ann Self

If this is the marriage, it could be the children were born before the marriage or Mary Ann was previously married? or Charles was previously married?
There is a Selena Blizzard registered in Stow Sep 1849 (perhaps my Teliva)
There are a number of Blizzard children born in Suffolk post 1851. 2 are in Stow which is the district for Woolpit
Jabez 1852
Jabez 1856

Trish
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Tuesday 30 October 07 11:52 GMT (UK)
Hey  there Trisha 
nice to see a fellow bb dropping in  on  this  interesting  thread,

I had  just  looked up   the 1851 census  have to agree with  you  on  this  family  I  couldn't  find  them  later but will recheck  to make  sure

kind regards Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Tuesday 30 October 07 11:57 GMT (UK)
Hello  there
this  is  the  right family 
they are  listed on world trees as follows
Name: Charles BLIZZARD
Sex: M
Occupation: Blacksmith
Birth: 5 SEP 1819 in Old Newton, Suffolk, England
Death: 1 JUN 1890 in Picton, New Zealand
Burial: 3 JUN 1890 Picton Cemetery, New Zealand
Note:
Emigrated to New Zealand in 1856 from Woolpit, England aboard the "John
Masterman" with their 4 children, landing in Nelson 10 Feb. 1857. Resided in
Nelson for 3 years, then went to Wairau. They moved to Picton in 1863.


Mother: Ann Mariah BLYZART\BLIZZARD b: 19 DEC 1798 in Old Newton, Suffolk, England

Marriage 1 Mary Ann BARFIELD b: 19 JAN 1816 in Langham, Suffolk, England
Married: 24 DEC 1846 in Langham, Suffolk, England
Children
 Walter Barfield BLIZZARD b: 1847 in Drinkston, Suffolk, England
 Selina BLIZZARD b: 1849 in Drinkston, Suffolk, England
 Clarissa Barfield BLIZZARD b: 15 OCT 1853 in Woolpit, Bury St, Edmonds, Suffolk, Engl
 Jabez BLIZZARD b: FEB 1856 in Old Newton, Suffolk, England
 Edgar Howard BLIZZARD b: 1860 in Nelson, New Zealand
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: trish251 on Tuesday 30 October 07 11:58 GMT (UK)
Hello Jenn

I just added to my BDM posting, the dates don't seem quite right? - your marriage to Mary Ann Barfield looks to be a better date

The marriage is on Free BDM - Charles listed as Blizard Dec Qtr 1846 district Stow

Trish
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Tuesday 30 October 07 12:12 GMT (UK)
Good grief, says she yet again  ::)

Can anyone find any connexion between these BLIZZARD families and the 'first' wife, Sarah Ann BLIZZARD, of John/Thomas RICHINGS (however spelled)??

Cazay, Florence WILKINSON in the Orphan School is yet another horribly tantalising record!  What to make of it?

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Tuesday 30 October 07 12:19 GMT (UK)
BLIZ(Z)ARDs and RICHINGSs are on the following thread:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,262672.0.html
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: trish251 on Tuesday 30 October 07 12:30 GMT (UK)
Unfortunately 1841 gives little information on Charles Blizard
He is living in Old Newton with a James and Elizabeth Cour? (very hard to read the name) - James and Charles are both Blacksmiths

Trish
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Tuesday 30 October 07 20:55 GMT (UK)
Hi Trish     :)

Very many thanks for your help with census info which has now confirmed that this BLIZZARD family had NO connection to those at Gloucester.     Rather an unusual surname and the fact this Charles was living in the same area as Richings, meant I HAD to check him out.   Phew !   Am quite relieved - one less "bod" to have to follow up on !

Yep, this thread has more twists and turns than your average snake !   

Thanks again

Regards
Lu

Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Tuesday 30 October 07 21:09 GMT (UK)
Hi Jenn     :)

Very many thanks - wow ..... that was great information you found!

Obvious now that theses BLIZZARDS are NOT connected to those in Gloucester ... but it made sense to check them out!

Thanks for your help

Kind regards
Lu

Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Saturday 03 November 07 06:11 GMT (UK)
Hi everyone

I have been the State Archives today-now more confused than ever.
I will start with the trail of Ebenzer Bransgrove and Frederick Poole.
The upshot is:
They were found guilty on 12 June 1855 and waiting sentence in Darlinghurst Gaol.(for Frauduently received and delivery of goods part of an insolvent estate)

HOWEVER!
On 21 July 1855  before the full court the court ruled that the verdict must be quashed.Prisoners ordered to be discharged accordingly.

So they got off

Need more time to get my head around the whole orphanage saga-it appears that it was William who was dead not Jane!!

Will try and post this later once I check a few more facts
Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Saturday 03 November 07 07:34 GMT (UK)
Hi

Thought I would start off with the simple part (or so I thought-silly me!)

Jane Elizabeth Wilkinson (nee Heasman)
died 19th November 1919 at Guildford ,Sydney NSW
In her very simple will-I Jane Elizabeth Wilkinson of 98 Fourcart Street,Rozelle - she leaves  everything to her grandson Cecil Payne of 98 Fourcart Street, Rozelle .
Her estate was valued at £262.15s which was the weatherboard cottage of 4 rooms and kitchen in Fourcart Street.
She is described as a widow,Cecil states his occupation as Motor Mechanic.

So who is Cecil?
In 1891 one Florence Wilkinson married Henry Payne in Sydney.

They had the following children:

Alice I born 1893  died 1893
Charles H born 1902 died 1902 as Horace C
Esther L born 1906 died 1906 as Esther H
But no Cecil
However in 1891 a Florence Wilkinson ( no father listed) had a son Frances C

On the 1903 Electoral Roll at :

38 Regent Street Chippendale
Wilkinson Jane
Payne Florence
Payne Frank -occup Linesman

Who is Frank?is he Frances Cecil?if he was born 1891 he would be old enough to be on the electoral roll.The Cecil in 1919 was a motor mechanic so was no child.

Found Florence Payne dying in 1909 father Charles, mother Jane


Annie

Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Saturday 03 November 07 08:56 GMT (UK)
Dear Annie,

Great finds!

I'm still with you (I think!).

Why oh why were BRANSGROVE & POOLE exonerated ...

So the heir to Jane Elizabeth (HEASMAN) WILKINSON's 'widow's mite' is Cecil PAYNE; he being a grandson of Jane Elizabeth (HEASMAN) WILKINSON.  He's perhaps Frances C WILKINSON b 1891 son of Florence WILKINSON, and perhaps a pre-nuptial child with Henry PAYNE (the marriage of Henry PAYNE & Florence WILKINSON being in 1891)?

But why Frances - normally a female forename.

And do we have the birth of a Florence WILKINSON, daughter of Charles & Jane Elizabeth?  And do we assume that she's the same as Florence PAYNE d 1909, parents Charles & Jane.

One wonders why Jane's other grandchildren got nothing.

It would be nice to to find the death (where?) of Jane Elizabeth's husband Charles WILKINSON (Charles & Jane married in 1856).

Sorry if I'm getting confused with this saga ...

JAP
PS: When looking up these births I came across a Florence with pa Caractacus PAYNE.  Wow!!
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Saturday 03 November 07 08:57 GMT (UK)
Hello  there
Annie well done  a  wealth  of  information  I  do envy  you so  much  being able  to  look  at all this  lovely  stuff at  the SRO!

just to add  in  here a  little bit

Death  in 1938  PAYNE  CECIL  father  FRANK mother  FLORENCE  at  DRUMMOYNE    reg no 7134/1938


kind regards  Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Saturday 03 November 07 08:59 GMT (UK)

One could add on a  lighter  note  that  the  thread  is starting to resemble  the court of King Caractacus!!

Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Saturday 03 November 07 09:03 GMT (UK)
Jenn,

Well said.

Let's hope that we are not "too late".  And that the ladies haven't all just "passed by"!

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Saturday 03 November 07 09:09 GMT (UK)
Yes JAP  but unfortunatley  they  have passed "away"  lol

by  the  Sands directory  in  1923  Cecil Payne  is  living  at  the house  his  gran  has  left  him  but  not  for  long  he  is  the  at  Lidcome.  He was living at  Lidcombe  when  she  passed away  in  1919  so  one would  have  toa assume  he is a  man , but  I  didn't see him serving  in  WW1  though.

Yyou  can  understand that him being a  male  and  seemingly  the  only  living male  of Florence  he would  inherit but Jane  had a  number of children.  Who  knows  he  may  have  just been  her favourite  or  her toadied up  to  her quite nicely!!!

regards JEnn

We  will await  for  the next  segment of Annie's  it  is better  than  the Tele!
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Saturday 03 November 07 11:14 GMT (UK)
Evening Ladies

Continuing on with the Jane Elizabeth Wilkinson nee Heasman saga
 On 7 Sept 1870 two sisters were placed in the orphanage:
Florence Wilkinson aged 3yrs
Frances Wilkinson aged 6yrs
Father dead,mother unable to support

Florence left 15 Jan 1872 -noted Father formerly a clerk in Treasury Sydney -to mother's care.
Frances left 11 July 1874-noted discharged to care of her mother.

Then we have  on 16 Jan 1873
Florence Wilkinson aged 5 1/2yrs
Father Charles Wilkinson dead
Mother Jane Wilkinson has another child to support.
Florence left 7 June 1874 to her mother's care.

Note Frances still in orphanage when Florence went back in -so there is another child at home with the mother.

Now for the tricky part.
On 14 April 1870 there was application for administration of the Estate of the late Charles Wilkinson by one Jane Harper.
states
Charles Wilkinson ,late of Melbourne,Government Officer,Application by Jane Harper wife of William Thomas Harper of Sydney ,a contractor out of work.States the above named Charles Wilkinson was my late husband who departed this life Melbourne on 6 Dec 1868 ,leaving me and five children.

I found a marriage

Spouse: HARPER, William Thomas   
   Marriage Place: London
  Reg Year: 1869 Reg State: Victoria
 Ref Number: 4673

Okay now we know Jane Elizabeth had a daughter Florence ,the Florence who was in the orphanage  had a father who was dead but had been in the Treasury.This Charles  was married to a Jane and was a Government Officer.And we know they went to Melbourne-so to my way of thinking it has to be the same Jane (nee Heasman).
Only way to prove it would be to get Charles Wilkinson's death cert.

But the question is if Jane married this Harper man what happened to him and why did she die as Wilkinson?

More twists.
Annie
PS JAP -you might like to know that Caractacus Payne went bankrupt also.

Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Saturday 03 November 07 21:57 GMT (UK)
Good Morning

This Charles Wilkinson has been bugging me all night,so for my own piece of mind I got up this morning and decided to down load his death cert.It is the right one who died in 1868.
Am I allowed to attach it to this site??

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Saturday 03 November 07 22:35 GMT (UK)
Hello  there Annie

Thats  a  bugging and a half.  I  have bee n  very tempted  to download George Heasmans death certificate!!

I cannot see why  you  can't pu it on  this site  you  do  see  from  time  to  time copies  of BDM's  or  part thereof.

You  could send a  PM  to  Kris,  or Grubb for verification,  or  just  put it  up  and  one of  the mods  will remove  it if not allowed

you  have done some fantastic  work  Annie. 

kind regards Jenn

Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Saturday 03 November 07 22:46 GMT (UK)

Hi

Here is the death of Charles Wilkinson

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Saturday 03 November 07 22:49 GMT (UK)

Trying again
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Sunday 04 November 07 00:15 GMT (UK)
Oh, Annie - you are wonderful!

Just in case there are any problems, I'll quickly transcribe the gist of Charles's dc from your attachment.

*Deaths, 1868, St Kilda, Victoria
*1st Dec 1868, Fitzroy St, St Kilda
*Charles WILKINSON, Gentleman
*Male 53 years
*Inquest (7 Dec) found death was due to disease of the heart
*Father WILKINSON, a Purser on an Indiaman (father's forename and mother's name unknown)
*Informant - (signed) Jane WILKINSON, Wife, St Kilda
*Registered 7 Dec at St Kilda
*Buried at St Kilda Cemetery 9 Dec.
*Born Cheshire, lived in NSW 31 years and 3 years in Victoria
*Married in Sydney at age of 41.
*First wife's name not known or when married.  No issue from first marriage.
*Second wife's name Mary Ann MILTON, when married not known.  Issue - Charles 19(?), William 18(?)
*Wife's name Jane HEASMAN.  Issue - Rachael 11, Walter dead, Thomas Frances  4(?), Florence 1.

PS: Incidentally Annie, you are giving us a history lesson  ;)  Earlier you mentioned the Rev John Dunmore Lang and more recently you've brought the Flogging Parson himself, Rev Samuel Marsden, in ...
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Sunday 04 November 07 00:52 GMT (UK)
Well, like you Jenn, I've been resisting temptation re George HEASMAN's death - but couldn't any longer.

I'll post details in a minute - age and parentage are as recorded.  BUT, who is the informant, eh?

"Peder ANDERSEN - A Friend"  ::)

So I don't believe for one moment that George's parentage is as recorded ...

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Cazay on Sunday 04 November 07 00:57 GMT (UK)
Great information you have found Annie

Always an added bonus getting those death certificates from the files and now the Clerk at the Treasury is confirmed.  I was a bit sceptical when I saw Charles in the 1861 as Col. (Colonel) and thought that Jap's comment being a bit upmarket was probably right.

I guess you can never assume until all the facts are found.

Found Charles Wilkinson's marriage in NSW

V184696 31C/1846 Charles Wilkinson Mary A Milton Sydney St Andrews

Births:
V1849643 34A/1849 Charles F
V1850683 37A/1850 William T H

Cazay
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Sunday 04 November 07 01:09 GMT (UK)
OK, folks.

But first a reminder.

A child, Elizabeth Jane ANDERSON, was born to a Peter ANDERSON & a Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE, 1871 Coll, #8821

Death certificate.
*1870, Deaths in the District of Emerald Hill in the Colony of Victoria, #4125
*9 April 1870, 45 Clarendon Street, Emerald Hill, 8 a.m.
*George HEASMAN (corrected from EASTMAN), Child
*Male, 4 years
*Liver disease - dropsy.  For three months.  Certified by Mr Barrett, Surgeon, Emerald Hill who last saw him on 8 April 1870.
*Parents William HEASMAN, Carpenter, and Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE
*Informant - (signed) Peder ANDERSEN, A Friend, Emerald Hill
*Registrar - William HAIG, 11 April 1870, Emerald Hill
*Buried - 11 April 1870, Melbourne General Cemetery, undertaker Joseph HILL; CPM BORDIN(??) Church of England Minister; witnesses Joseph CLOWES(?) & J PURVIS
*Born Melbourne Victoria; lived four years in Victoria

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Sunday 04 November 07 01:16 GMT (UK)
Hi
This is what I found yesterday that has me confused.

In the Colonial Secretary's Correspondence .
Letter dated 15 Oct 1856
Sir,
I have the honour to request that the requisite authority may be given for the admission of the four following children into the Protestant Orphan Schools at Parramatta,viz
William Heasman aged nine yrs
Anne Heasman aged eight yrs
Rachel Heasman age six  yrs
Amelia Heasman age 4yrs

The father of these children William Heasman who had for sometime kept a public house at Woolloomooloo died about sixteen months ,since his widow Jane Heasman ,who has hitherto maintained them ?? her own industry ,is able to do so no longer,in consequence of her infirm health.

I beg to enclose the certificate of the visiting surgeon of the infirmary as to their state of health.
I have the honour to be
Sir,
Your most Obedient Servant
John Dunmore Lang


Note at side of page
In consequence of its crowded state no boy,nor any girls who are not above 6yrs of age ,can be admitted into the Protestant Orphan School for the present.

Both Anne and Rachel may admitted .20 Oct 1856

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Sunday 04 November 07 01:20 GMT (UK)
Hi

Doing the maths this would make William Heasman's death June 1855 which is when the police had the warrant out for him.Is he really dead??Or is he the W Heasman who returned from Melbourne to Sydney in 1860?
I think it is him and he took the family back to Melbourne

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Sunday 04 November 07 01:29 GMT (UK)
True Annie

 but  then  the wife Jane Heasman  has a child  toanother man  but  no  sign of a  marriage  to  him  at  this point.

edited  by  Jenn  cause goodness knows  where  my  mind was!!!
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Sunday 04 November 07 02:15 GMT (UK)
I've been trying to sort things out in my own mind so I made a timeline (e.&o.e.) of what I think might be relevant facts for Jane Elizabeth HEASMAN later WILKINSON later HARPER, died as WILKINSON.  Might as well post it ...

There are many loose ends (absence of bdm records etc) yet to be tied up ...

1838 Jane Elizabeth HEASMAN b in London, parents William HEASMAN (b ca 1817) & Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE (b ca 1819)

1841 Family migrates to Victoria

1843-1851 Siblings of Jane are baptized in Victoria

1855 William HEASMAN is made bankrupt in NSW

1855 ca June; William HEASMAN said to have died (i.e. ca 16 months before Oct 1856 admission of children to the Orphan School).  Or was this an untruth because he was on the run from his creditors and the police?

1856 Jane marries Charles WILKINSON in NSW

1856 October; Application (stating William HEASMAN has been dead for ca 16 months and mother Jane is infirm and no longer able to care for them) made for admission to the Orphan School, NSW of siblings of Jane’s (William 9, Anne 8, Rachel 6, Amelia 4).  Ann and Rachel admitted. 

1858 Male WILKINSON b & d as infant, Chippendale, NSW

1859 Jane’s siblings Ann & Rachel released from the Orphan School into her care.

1860 Female WILKINSON b & d as infant, Chippendale, NSW

1860 May; W HEASMAN is on a passenger list from Melbourne to Sydney; is this William (back from the dead?) ?

1861 Male WILKINSON b Chippendale, NSW

1862 Walter WILKINSON, 11 months born Sydney, dies 1862 Vic

1862 One of Jane’s siblings (Annie) marries in Victoria

1863 One of Jane’s siblings (Mary Ann) marries in Victoria

1864 Nameless child WILKINSON b Redfern, NSW

1865 One of Jane’s siblings (Rachel) marries in Victoria

1867 Laura WILKINSON b Emerald Hill, Vic

1868 Charles WILKINSON, Jane’s husband dies St Kilda, Vic (Jane’s children listed as Rachael 11, Walter dead, Thomas Frances 4(?), Florence 1.

1870 Jane Elizabeth WILKINSON (b London) m William Thomas HARPER (b Birmingham) in Victoria

1870 Apr; Jane Elizabeth HARPER, wife of William Thomas HARPER Sydney, makes application re estate of Charles WILKINSON (says he died leaving her with 5 children)

1870 Sept; Jane’s children Frances 6 and Florence 3 admitted to the Orphan School, NSW (father dead, mother unable to support)

1871  A William Thomas HARPER, born Birm (remember, Birmingham was the birthplace of the groom of this name at his 1869 marriage to Jane WILKINSON), age 26, dies in Victoria

1871 One of Jane’s siblings (Amelia) marries in Victoria

1872 Jan; Florence released to mother’s care

1873 Jan; Florence 5 ½ re-admitted (mother has another child to support)

1874 July; Frances released to mother’s care

1878 One of Jane’s siblings (William) marries in NSW

1903 Jane WILKINSON on the Electoral Roll in Chippendale

1919 Jane Elizabeth WILKINSON dies Granville, NSW

**********
A related puzzle.

Later note: *1869, Vic, Jane Elizabeth HEASMAN (as HEANNAN) b London m Peter ANDERSON (as HENDERSON) b Norway
*1870 April, George HEASMAN, parents said to be William HEASMAN & Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE, dies Emerald Hill, Vic, age 4, said to have been born in Melbourne, Vic, informant Peder ANDERSEN – A Friend, Emerald Hill.
Were William HEASMAN & Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE really the parents of George?
Later note: It has been suggested that George might really have been George BALLI, son of John BALLI & Mary Ann HEASMAN (indexed as Marion ESMOND), b Dayl, 1865 #14820
*1871 March, Elizabeth ANDERSON, parents Peter ANDERSON & Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE (cert has ANDERSON formerly HEASMAN nee AYLMORE), born Coll, Vic.
*1871 September, Amelia HEASMAN marries; witnesses are Peter and JE ANDERSON.

Jane Elizabeth (AYLMORE) HEASMAN was b ca 1819 so would have been ca 52 in 1871 - not impossible but unlikely.  Is something fishy going on?

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Sunday 04 November 07 02:33 GMT (UK)
Hi
Jap ,excellent summary I was hoping you would do one of your specials.
I would like to add the two girls Florence and Frances who were admitted to the Orphan school in 1870 didn't have the parents names in the records except to mention that the dead father had been in the Treasury Dept.
The Florence admitted 1873 did have the names Jane & Charles in the parent's column.
The ages of Florence tally up and I can't find a birth that would match any other parents.So I at a loss to explain if they belong to someone else-might have to go back and see if any letters survive in Col Sec's correspondence.
Is Florence really the Laura born in Vic?Jane stated when doing administration for her husband's estate that she had 5 children to support-this would be right if you include the two sons from his previous marriage but they were well past the age of needing support.
There also was a letter in the administration file from Mr Harper giving his wife permission to administer her late husband's estate -which was nice of him.

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Sunday 04 November 07 02:52 GMT (UK)
Hello Annie,

IF Charles's dc is correct, the 5 children would have included Rachael, Thomas, and Florence.

We haven't found a birth for Rachael (11 in 1868).

We haven't found a birth for Thomas Frances (4? in 1868).
Later note: Perhaps the nameless child WILKINSON b Redfern NSW 1864

We haven't found a birth for Florence (1 in 1868).  Yes, perhaps she's Laura b 1867 Emerald Hill - a mistranscription of Flora?

We haven't found a birth for Frances (was she a posthumous child of Charles?)

And the 5th child is a puzzle ...

JAP
PS: I don't like making assumptions but it does seem pretty safe to assume that Florence and Frances are Jane WILKINSON's children?
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Sunday 04 November 07 03:04 GMT (UK)
Hello


in  1858  in Victoria  there is a birth for Rachael Wilkinson  no father listed  mother is Jane Wilkinson  could  this  be a  possiblity,  or  just a red herring?

regards Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Sunday 04 November 07 03:08 GMT (UK)
This looks like the death of William Thomas HARPER.

William Thomas HARPER, born BIRM (remember, BIRMINGHAM was his birthplace at his 1869 marriage to Jane WILKINSON), age 26, father Thomas, mother Annie STRINGA, died 1871 Victoria, #9037

William Thomas HARPER, bap 2 Apr 1845, Bordesley Warwickshire, parents Thomas HARPER & Anne (IGI).
Thomas HARPER marriage, Mar qtr 1843, Aston an Ann STRINGER on the same page

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Sunday 04 November 07 03:09 GMT (UK)
Also  

trying  to  think  aloud  will a  download  of  one of the Heasmans  girls  marriage  in  Victoria  reveal  anything  more than  what we  know...  it  might  if  either parent is a witness at  the  marriage  I  quess.

Another query  girls  especially  you Annie  would a suicide  by William  heasman  still be recorded  as a death  in NSW  in 1855?

Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Sunday 04 November 07 11:34 GMT (UK)
If William committed suicide it wouldn't be on BMDs in 1855.This is before registration started and prior to this deaths are based on church burials.I don't think the church would bury him as in those days not only was suicide a crime it was also a sin.

Did you notice on Charles Wilkinson's death it stated only 3yrs in Vic?This would make it c 1865.We know they were in Vic when Walter died -yet we have a unnamed child born in Sydney(Thomas?)in 1864.
All the other Heasman sisters were marrying in Vic prior to 1865 so do we assume that the Wilkinsons stayed in Sydney and only were visiting Vic when Walter died.
If so and remember Jane Wilkinson was basically the guardian of them why would the sister's leave Sydney for Melbourne.There has to be a very strong reason and I think they rejoined their parents.

After Charles Wilkinson died Jane remarried in Vic the following year.A year later she returns to Sydney -was this to make the claim on Charles's estate?The papers don't state the value but it couldn't of been much as a few short months later if Florence and Frances belong to her she puts them in the Orphanage.

It must of not worked out with Mr Harper otherwise why keep calling herself Wilkinson and where did she get the money to buy a house in Rozelle.She wasn't living there in 1903.
I also found dau Rachel dying in 1891 -no sign of young Thomas yet
Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Sunday 04 November 07 11:51 GMT (UK)
Hi
Just found this message on Rootsweb mailing list -Wilkinson dated 2004-this is the son of Charles

Looking for information on, as well as descendants of, Charles Fletcher Wilkinson who married Catherine Angus/Agnus Anderson at Balranald in 1873. Charles parents were Charles Snr. (possibly a convict) and Mary A Milton (a convict).
Charles and Catherine's children were:
Elizabeth Janet R b. 1880 m. Paul Wright Fearby
Edith b. 1875
Charles Reid b. 1876
Agnus Rachel b. 1879
William Reid b. 1880
Joan Middleton b. 1883
Mary Reid b. 1883
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Cazay on Sunday 04 November 07 13:45 GMT (UK)
There is a Mary Anne Milton age 31 who arrived 1838 on the John Renwick, birthplace was Devonshire and she was a Needleworker/child's maid.

Would be interesting to find a permission to marry, especially to a Charles Wilkinson.

Cazay

Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Monday 05 November 07 03:19 GMT (UK)
That's all this saga needed.  Convicts!!

Mary Anne MILTON got her certificate of freedom, 28 June 1845.
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/searchform.aspx?id=19

Is this a possible convict record for Charles WILKINSON?

Charles WILKINSON, arr 1838 on the 'Westmoreland', got his certificate of freedom, 28 Aug 1845.

On Charles's death cert at age 53 in 1868, Jane said he'd been in NSW for 31 years (did she know exactly?) and Vic for 3 years - which would give an arrival date at age ca 19 in roughly 1834.  So this would roughly fit.

JAP

Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Monday 05 November 07 11:02 GMT (UK)
They are not listed in the Permission to Marry index just checked.
They married 1846 and the cert of Freedom was 1845 so they both both be free by then.

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Monday 05 November 07 11:18 GMT (UK)
Hi Annie,

Of course!  Should have thought of that!

But it's getting very suspicious, isn't it, that "our" Charles WILKINSON was the convict Charles WILKINSON?

Might his first marriage have been when he was still a convict?  Or before he was transported (given that his age might have been quite approximate)?

As Lu once said, this thread has more twists and turns than your average snake.

Next question is to find whether the convict Charles WILKINSON came from Cheshire - Charles's birthplace on this death cert ...

I'm getting even grumpier than I already was that the St Kilda Cemetery records are no longer accessible.  Not to mention that Melbourne General Cemetery records never have been.

Regards,

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Cazay on Monday 05 November 07 12:20 GMT (UK)
From the Irish Transportation Database.........the Charles Wilkinson on the Westmoreland 1838 was tried in Dublin City and transported for 7 yrs - felony waistcoat and two other articles. Age was 18.

Wondering if this might be the first marriage........

V18381632 22/1838 Charles Wilkinson/Louisa D Wiles Sydney St James

Death:
V18465 31B/1846 Louisa D Wilkinson age 27

Charles married Mary A Milton in 1846

Cazay
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Monday 05 November 07 12:30 GMT (UK)
Oh Cazay, How disappointing - at least in part!

Dublin - not Cheshire  :(

But who knows.  Perhaps Charles had fibbed a bit to Jane Elizabeth HEASMAN?  Or was born in Cheshire and then went to Dublin and became a bad boy!  Though perhaps he wasn't a convict at all ...

Let's hope others have more ideas ...

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Cazay on Monday 05 November 07 12:39 GMT (UK)
JAP

You never know where the truth begins and ends  ::)

Pity because as he stole a waistcoat, the clerk seemed liked a natural progression then. Oh well..........

Cazay
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Monday 05 November 07 13:35 GMT (UK)
With Lu's lot - and she must be totally overwhelmed by now - anything seems possible!

It is looking not all that unlikely that Charles is the convict chappie - but who knows.

Ah well, stealing a waistcoat does sound like a nice gentlemanly and non-violent crime (assuming it wasn't being worn at the time)  :D

As you say, who knows where truth lies ...  And, of course, it was all back in a time when being a convict was a source of shame rather the very desirable social cachet it is nowadays.  I do remember my late mother desperately insisting on producing the passage certificates of her (unassisted) ancestors from 1850.  I'm still trying really really hard to find a convict but no luck - even the 1841 Irish lot (my earliest known lot so far) were assisted immigrants.  Nowadays the shame arises from not having a convict ancestor  :D

The only convict (though he was pardoned before sailing and subsequently came to Oz and became a respected? - not quite - businessman) that I can find is one on my children's paternal side; and it was for forgery & uttering (another 'gentlemanly' crime) and all the worthies and gentry in his area back in the UK spoke in support of him.  Nothing changes, eh!

We've rather taken over Lu's family, haven't we - I do hope she doesn't mind  :-[

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Monday 05 November 07 22:10 GMT (UK)
One would think  that Lucy  won't be  minding  at all.  What a  wealth  of  information  she  has  obtained from  this  thread  and  the  interesting twists and turns  of  the  tale.

However Girls  we  still  don't know  what  happened  to

1.  Jane Heasman  who  appears  to  have had a  child  with  another man  Peter Anderson  so  perhaps  she died as Anderson!

2. Willaim Heasman  who  to  my  way  of  thinking  if  he was really dead when  the  little  ones went  into  the orphanage  committed suicide and  as dear Annie  has  told  us  that wouldn't be recorded  on  the BDMs.  I  wonder  if  it  would  have  made  the newspaper at that time.  Could  that  have had any bearing  on  the court case.

3.  Anne Morinini's  child  born  in Australia, we cannot find  her death  in Australia ,  did she go  to New Zealand with  her mother.  (  I  wonder  if Lu  has  found  Annie Morinini's arrival  into New Zealand)


We  shall have to try  harder girls  (LOL)  cause  the  thread  can  only  run  for  20 odd pages  and  we are  up  to  14!!

I  am  going to download a certificate  in  Victoria  which  one  to  go  for  seeing as  how  JAP  kindly  did  George's.  Which  one  might give any  further information  to  us .  One  of  the girls  marriages  might  show  a witness  that could be of some  interest to  us.  Help  please

kind regards Jenn ;)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Tuesday 06 November 07 02:42 GMT (UK)
Hello Jenn,

It's a pity that some HEASMAN descendants (other than Lu) don't come across this thread!  They might already have information which would help.  Or might have certificates already ...  There must surely be some more descendants around - from the children of Mary Ann (BALLI children), William, and Rachel (CAMERON & PARKIN children), and (if she had children) Amelia (who m BRADLEY)?

I don't have access to all the Victorian records.  Perhaps more information might be available from them before spending money on certificates? 

Re 1.  George's 1870 dc has at least confirmed the link between Jane Elizabeth (AYLMORE) HEASMAN & Peter ANDERSON. 
I do feel that George may well be a child of Peter ANDERSON also.  Did Peter & Jane Elizabeth ever marry, I wonder.
And I'm still troubled by the age of Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE (ca 52) at the 1871 birth of Elizabeth ANDERSON; I wonder what happened to Elizabeth ANDERSON.
Trying to find the death of Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE (possibly as ANDERSON) could be very difficult especially if the informant didn't know much about her.

Re 3.  Unless Lu has had a breakthrough subsequently, she'd had no luck with Annie's arrival in NZ.  Annie's MORININI husband and the child born in Australia, you'll remember, we thought might both have drowned about the 'General Grant'.

Hmmmm ....

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Tuesday 06 November 07 06:33 GMT (UK)
~   Greetings  Everyone  ~

Apology :    So sorry to have been "absent without leave"
-  plagued by computer probs which have meant, among other things,  not being able to access this board, or having the connection fizzle out on me.    An enormously frustrating episode !

              :)     T H A N K S     :)

WOW ...  so much to catch up on !

Absolutely BRILLIANT work by you all,  and  again, my SINCERE THANKS for your efforts and ongoing support.

Kind regards

LU
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Tuesday 06 November 07 06:37 GMT (UK)
Hi All   :)

Yesterday, by a stroke of good fortune, I discovered a HEASMAN family researcher, who will be joining in here shortly and has much to offer.

Hopefully, a few of our little "mysteries" are on the way to being solved ?

Lu
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Tuesday 06 November 07 07:40 GMT (UK)
HELP  ....  please

Have some information, gleaned from a couple of publications, which I'd like to post here.    I don't plan to quote "word for word" from these sources, but just to give an overview and provide a comparison with other findings.

Do I need to state the names / authors of the publications ?

Thanks

Lu
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Wednesday 07 November 07 03:23 GMT (UK)
Hi Lucy

Don't worry about names or sources at this point just tell us to start with what you have learnt?

Annie
PS How are the negotiations with Hollywood going for the rights of the story?
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Wednesday 07 November 07 03:40 GMT (UK)
Yes indeed Lu,

Please put us out of our misery!

And it will be great to welcome the other HEASMAN researcher you mention.

What on earth will be the next twist or turn in this remarkable saga  ;D

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Wednesday 07 November 07 06:04 GMT (UK)
Quote
Annie
PS How are the negotiations with Hollywood going for the rights of the story?
Hey  if there  is a  part for a  short fat  middleaged lady  I'm  just  the girl, and I  allready have an  Orstralian accent to boot

Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Wednesday 07 November 07 10:38 GMT (UK)
 :)

Darn !    Nobody's called from Hollywood YET !

BUT hey ....  we 'aint finished this "thing"  !

Jenn ~ (giggle, giggle) , if that's what you want, then we'll get you a part .... but you are already a STAR .... in this online version !

 :)

Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Wednesday 07 November 07 11:27 GMT (UK)
Hi All    :)

UPDATE :

Ann Amelia "Annie" MORININI (nee HEASMAN)
[Mother of Thomas (1872) and Lily (1874) RICHINGS]

Annie's death certificate (1931) shows she resided in New Zealand for 66 years (arriving 1865), but despite extensive searches, under a variety of names, she can't be found on a passenger list.

New info from various sources / publications, reveals the following:

*    Annie married (at age16), Alessandro (Alexander) MORININI, in December 1862, at Castlemaine.

*    Alexander, born c. 1840, (to Andrea Morinini and Domenica Fabretti), was a native of Gordola, a village in the
Italian-speaking canton of Ticino, Switzerland.   His arrival date in Victoria is unknown;  it is thought he worked as a dairyman / farmer.

*    Annie and Alexander's daughter, Amelia MORININI, was born at Sandhurst (Bendigo) in  early May of 1864.

*    "A. Morinini (aged 25)" (thought to be Alexander), and a child named "Emile (aged 1)" (likely the baby Amelia), were listed as passengers on board the ship "General Grant" which departed Melbourne 4 May 1866, bound for London.
Mrs. Morinini (Annie), was NOT on the passenger list.

*    A 1974 publication (relating the tale of the shipwrecked "General Grant"), states ...  "of the 15 souls in the aft cabin, there was a father travelling only with his baby son".   [Perhaps the authors' guesswork, Emile, a boys name ?    "Emile" though may have been the father's particular spelling of "Amelia" ?]       The passenger list given in this book shows the Morinini's as being "A. Morrison and Emile Morrison".     Other sources state the name correctly as Morinini.

*    Despite the earlier thinking that the "General Grant" may have had a scheduled stopover at a New Zealand port, that was not the case.    The vessel was in fact on a direct voyage to London, using what had become known as the "great circle route" - which swept south from Australia and passed between NZ and the Auckland Islands as it swung towards Cape Horn.
                                 _____________

 ::)   
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: aumarire on Thursday 08 November 07 08:42 GMT (UK)
Hi all,
I think I am the person that was referred to as the new researcher for the Heasman family. I do have some information, but not a great deal, as I have not done a HUGE amount of work on this family, because of all the problems ( as you are all aware of) of this wonderful family and the change of name at every turn they took. However, let me tell you what I do know.
I have already tried to post this reply, but have been told that it exceeds the limit of words, so I will cut it in half and post two replies if that is ok with everyone. Bear with me, this is a first time for me on this system.
Mary Ann/Marion Heasman was my great great Grandmother.
I have her birth as approx 1845. She married ( I have the cert).
Groom; John Balli, bachelor, born Locarno, Tacino, Switzerland, a miner, age 23, usual place of residence Brandy Hot Gully, Daylesford. Father Giscona Balli, a Publican, mother Marian/Maria  nee Frizzie.
Bride; Marion Heasman, spinster, born Melbourne, age 21 ( which equates to 1842 birth), usual place of residence Brandy Hot, father William Heasman a Wheelwright, mother Jane Heasman maiden surname Kailmore. The witness's to the marriage were an Angelo Chariolie ( the writing is poor, so may not be correct ) and Martin ? ( the writing is poor) The marriage took place 11th May 1863 in the Parsonage House, Daylesford.
Now, the above couple had three children, a James Balli born 7 December 1863 in Blanket Flatt, near Daylesford. Father is listed as John Balli, Miner age 24 born Switzerland and mother Mary Ann nee Iisman ( although again, the writing is poor). John Balli registered the birth, but the witness to the birth is recorded as Mrs Iisman. The parents marriage date is recorded correctly as 11th May 1863.
Now the next child born was George Balli, and this birth cert is ordered and I await this, but the birth was recorded in 1865. Now this is the George that has confused the issue with this family. I BELIEVE that this George Balli is one in the same George Heasman that died in 9 April 1870, and is recorded as a child of William and Jane Elizabeth.

To be continued on further posting.
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: aumarire on Thursday 08 November 07 08:44 GMT (UK)
the continuation, page 2.

My thoughts are these, that at an earlier stage, around late 1866 or early 1867, Mary Ann/Marion leaves Melbourne. She leaves her two children, with her husband Frank Balli, (his correct name was Giovanni Balli) and takes off for New Zealand, ending up in Kumara/Hokitika. She would have been pregnant at the time of her departure.
Once in Hokitika, she gives birth to another son, this time named William, born 2 May 1867, in Kaniere  and his birth was registered in Hokitika, with the father as Frank Balli, an Inn Keeper, mother Mary Ann Balli nee Eastman. The informant for the birth was a John Grubb from Kaniere.
Meanwhile, back in Melbourne, our poor Giovanni/John and now Frank Balli is languishing in the Melbourne Hospital, and it was only a matter of 17 days later that he died. As previously mentioned, it was a Hall Porter who was the informant for his death.
Of course, there are the previously born children born to Giovanni and Mary Ann, I have always presumed, to be then taken to be cared for by Mary Ann's parents William and  Jane Elizabeth Heasman. Three years later, we find George died, but under the name of Heasman, and not Balli. Now of course this is only an assumption, but I do not think it likely ( although never impossible) for William and Jane Elizabeth to be having children at that age. I do not have the death dates for either William or Jane Elizabeth, but from the previous postings, I GATHER that William may well have already died by that stage himself, so it would have been Jane Elizabeth who would have cared for George and his brother James, her grandchildren. Now, as I have said, I have no proof of this,, it is supposition, but as we have the birth of George as 1865 and then the death of a 5 year old in 1870, it runs correct.
Now,, I have to say at this point that I have never located what happened to James, he may well have kept his name of Balli, may also have changed his name to Heasman, or could have changed it to Caldwell, in the same way as his younger brother did. An explanation of that to follow.
as I have said, Mary Ann/Marion  has given birth to William Balli in New Zealand. The next thing we find is Mary Ann/Marion is having more children.
She meets up with, and apparently marries in April 1868 in Hokitika ( although to date NO marriage record has ever been found) a man called William Richard Caldwell. William Richard Caldwell was born in Londonderry approx 1844. The two of them go ahead and have a further 7 children. I have a list of all 7, and seeing there is a repetition of names, I will not record them here for the moment, otherwise you could get confused ( I do when I am working on this line ha ha)   
On these children's birth registration, the marriage date of the parents was listed on SOME of them as  April 1868, there is never a DAY listed, just the month and the year), others have no date recorded, but no record has been found.
As for my William Balli, of course he is now being raised by his birth mother and step father, so while there were no formal adoptions, he obviously just assumes the surname of his step father and then becomes known as William Caldwell. To confuse matters even more, later on, in different certificates, he even uses his step fathers second Christian name as well, so sometimes is recorded as William Richard Caldwell jnr. ( urgh!!!!)
Now we do know that our William Balli, now known as William Caldwell, knew of his correct parentage, and the reason for this is that later on, the family moved back to Victoria and our William Balli now Caldwell becomes ''friendly'' with his future wife. William and his future wife Mary  Jane Elizabeth Dobbin have a child before their marriage. The child is registered at birth as William Henry John Dobbin, but he died 2 months later ( sadly, just the day before Christmas) and when his death is registered, the fathers name is listed as William Baylli. Two months after the death of this child, they married in Bendigo. 8 months later they gave birth to another child, and from this time on, William ALWAYS used the surname of Caldwell, and I have never seen any reference again to him using his original name. They went on to have a further 6 children, one of them being my grandmother.
As an aside, the family moved yet again, back to New Zealand, so this family were moving between the two countries often.
Now, I think I will leave it there for the moment and see what you think, I have some Baptism records, other birth records and deaths, but I will tell you about those later, although I gather you have a number of these records yourself.
from
Aumarire in Auckland New Zealand
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Thursday 08 November 07 10:57 GMT (UK)
Hi Aumarire    :)

Welcome to RootsChat ... and a special welcome to this thread.

A truly splendid effort in providing all that wonderful information.    Well done !

Many thanks

Lu       :)

Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Thursday 08 November 07 11:18 GMT (UK)
Hello All,

Well what can I say! My jaw did drop when I read Aumarire's post -amazing piece of work by her.

So now we have two sisters Annie and Mary Ann who both married Swiss men and both left them and ended up in NZ at the same time.
With Mary Ann the common link between Australia and New Zealand is gold mining.
Her Swiss husband was a miner.The time she arrives on the West Coast is perfect for the discovery of Gold around this area.I do know that people rushed from Vic on ships going straight to Hokitika trying to beat everyone else.

To have been is such a remote place as Kaniere Mary Ann would of had to of been with a gold miner.Nothing there but mud and tents.

I wonder if Annie's husband had been a miner.
Has anyone checked miner's rights for Vic & NZ?Also is there any record of a baptism of the child in Hokitika??

Lucy
I think you might have to negotiate with Hollywood for a three movie deal at this rate
Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Thursday 08 November 07 11:29 GMT (UK)
 Hi Aumarire   

Can I ask what Mr Balli died of and did the death certificate mention the length of his illness and were any family members mentioned?

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Thursday 08 November 07 11:45 GMT (UK)
Hello  there  Aumarire

Welcome  to Rootschat and what a  wonderfull story  you  have told us

I  can  add in a  little  bit  of  information  that you  may  have allready  found

http://proarchives.imagineering.com.au/Index_search.asp?searchid=42



Outward Passengers to Interstate, UK, NZ and Foreign Ports 1852-1876

This database is a searchable list of passengers travelling on ships leaving Victoria.

 Mrs Balli  aged 23  on the " Auckland"  in Jun 1868 for New Zealand   Ref month June 1868 page 002

  G BALLI aged 31 on the "City of Hobart" in Dec 1862 for Port Chamers  Ref Dec 1862 002

I  hope you  have  found  this  thread  to  be  as enjoyable  as  I  have  and we  haven't  reached  the end  yet.

kind regards Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Thursday 08 November 07 12:11 GMT (UK)
Hello Aumarire,

Welcome to RootsChat and this amazing thread!

Thank you for all your wonderful information.

Those are very interesting thoughts about George HEASMAN, birthplace Melbourne, who d in Emerald Hill (old name for South Melbourne) Vic, April 1870, purportedly the son of William HEASMAN & Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE, informant Peder ANDERSEN, 'A Friend'.

That still leaves the puzzle of the birth of Elizabeth Jane ANDERSON, 1871  at Coll. Victoria, parents Peter ANDERSON & Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE ...

Best regards,
 
JAP
PS Little George 'HEASMAN' was buried at the Melbourne General Cemetery.  It would be interesting if we could find out who else was buried in the grave (IF it was a private grave).
Similarly for Charles WILKINSON who was buried at the St Kilda Cemetery.
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Thursday 08 November 07 12:13 GMT (UK)
Further to Jenn's posting   ..... at same website is this :

HEASMAR (sic)  Mary A.  (26)

aboard "Taranaki"  to port of Hokitika - 11 October 1866
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Thursday 08 November 07 12:20 GMT (UK)
Well  now Lu   that  is very  interesting   wonder  who  that  one might be?

Aumarire   
do  you  have a copy  of  Marion Caldwell death certificate ?  curious to see where  she  is  buried and  just  who  might be  with  her?

regards Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Thursday 08 November 07 12:56 GMT (UK)
Hi Lu,

Good find.

I guess your thought is that Mary A. HEASMAR might be Mary Ann (HEASMAN) BALLI going to NZ before William's birth there ...

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Thursday 08 November 07 13:37 GMT (UK)
Hi JAP     :)

Mmmmm ..... Yes.   " Heasmar"   odd name (just did check to see who else "owned this handle"   .... only a very few, and I think possibly it is "Heasman", badly transcribed ) ?

Age fits (nearly)  with Mary Ann born England.

I think Mary Ann / Marion had "upped sticks", reverted to her maiden name, and was off  to start a new life !    Perhaps at that stage, it hadn't occurred to her that she was pregnant?

Will take a look tomorrow at fiche records at library to see if surname is perhaps spelt differently.

Cheers

Lu
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Thursday 08 November 07 13:47 GMT (UK)
Hi again

RE:   Mary Ann HEASMAN - aged 1 - listed as passenger (with her family) on "ALEXANDER"  - arr. 1841 :

I know she is shown as "aged 1", but, is there anyway of finding out if she was in fact born "during the voyage" ?

Lu     :)

Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: trish251 on Thursday 08 November 07 14:18 GMT (UK)
Hi again

RE:   Mary Ann HEASMAN - aged 1 - listed as passenger (with her family) on "ALEXANDER"  - arr. 1841 :

I know she is shown as "aged 1", but, is there anyway of finding out if she was in fact born "during the voyage" ?

Lu     :)



From the shipping lists I have seen, children born on board are usually listed as such.  Forgive me, as I haven't followed your thread enough to have details of the mentioned trip, but if it was UK to Australia, by 1841 it should have taken 3-6 months max so if she was 1, I would think born before leaving.

Trish
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: aumarire on Thursday 08 November 07 18:51 GMT (UK)
Hi again,
There was a  question posed as to whether I have Marion Caldwell nee Heaman, formerly Balli's death cert. Yes I do, and it states as follows,
12 February 1890 at 83 Clarendon Street, South Melbourne, Marion Caldwell, a married woman, age 43 years, died of Philtisis pulmonalis - 3 years ( bad spelling by this registrar,)
fathers name William Heasman, a joiner, and mother Jane Elizabeth Heasman nee Elmore. Buried on the 15th Feb at the Melbourne Cemetery. Where born, Victoria, in that state for 23 years and New Zealand for 20 years. At what age married etc.. 1st marriage, in Victoria age 18 years to John Yarly, second marriage in New Zealand age 21 to William Caldwell.
Issue and ages
first marriage.
James age 23 and William age 22 years.
( note that there is no mention of George, as he is not living at this stage)
2nd marriage
Marion age 20
Thomas age 18
Eliza age 16
John Edward age 14
Joseph Henry age 12 ( named after the below same named)
deceased
William Henry
Joseph Henry

So Marion's death cert indicates a birth date of 1847, and her marriage cert to Balli indicates a birth date of 1842,, but her place of birth is always listed as Melbourne, Victoria. Remember, we have not been able to locate her 'apparent' marriage to William Caldwell in 1868, to be able to check her age on that. I might do some more checking on this, as now I see all the various ways of spelling for her name, both her maiden surname  heasman, Easman, Eisman etc and her married name of Balli, Bayley, Yarley, I might double check my previous efforts,, you never know,, she may well have done the ''right'' thing and married William after all!!!
Off for a days work
Aumarire
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Thursday 08 November 07 22:27 GMT (UK)
Hello  again Aumarire

re  your  quote

Quote
Meanwhile, back in Melbourne, our poor Giovanni/John and now Frank Balli is languishing in the Melbourne Hospital, and it was only a matter of 17 days later that he died. As previously mentioned, it was a Hall Porter who was the informant for his death
.

I  must admit  I  cannot see where  you  have  given  this information  (  please forgive if  it  is  there)

Can  you  please  tell  us when he died  and also  where is he buried ?

kind regards Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: aumarire on Friday 09 November 07 00:27 GMT (UK)
Hi,
It was not me who mentioned this information, it was further back in this chat session, and one of the other folk had also a copy of the death, however, here is the info
John Balle, ( not Balli) died 19 May 1867 in Melbourne Hospital, age 28 years, died of Mortus Cardis, his parents names were listed as unknown, the person registering the death was M.C. Thomas, Hall Porter ( he also registered another death on the same page, which is also  devoid of parents information) He was buried 20th May in the Cemetery, Melbourne, Born Switzerland, in Victoria 13 years and marriage details recorded as unknown.

Back to the Heasman girls, I have photocopies of two of the Baptisms,
St James, Melbourne, in the year 1846, Baptized on the  16th Sept. ( in the space for the date of birth, this has not been filled in) Ann Amelia, parents William and Jane Elizabeth Heasman. Abode Melbourne, profession of father, Carpenter
At St Peters, Melbourne, in the year of 1851, Baptized June 6th, date of birth March 18 1851, Amelia, Parents, William and Jane Heasman, abode Melbourne, profession of father, Carpenter.

Aumarire.
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Friday 09 November 07 03:10 GMT (UK)
...  RE:   Mary Ann HEASMAN - aged 1 - listed as passenger (with her family) on "ALEXANDER"  - arr. 1841 :
I know she is shown as "aged 1", but, is there anyway of finding out if she was in fact born "during the voyage" ?

From the shipping lists I have seen, children born on board are usually listed as such.  Forgive me, as I haven't followed your thread enough to have details of the mentioned trip, but if it was UK to Australia, by 1841 it should have taken 3-6 months max so if she was 1, I would think born before leaving.
Trish

Hello Trish,

A Mary Ann HESIMAN (sic) was bap 1843 St James Melbourne Vic Reg: 13193
As I recall, nobody has looked at that church record; perhaps it would give her date of birth (Aumarire has mentioned that she has the entries for Ann Amelia and for Amelia - date of birth given for Amelia but not for Annie).

The shipping details from the online PROV Assisted Immigrants list are:
HAISMAN (sic) William (25), Jane (22), Jane (3), Mary Ann (1), ship 'Alexander', December 1841, Book 1, Page 246.

I wonder whether anyone has access to the relevant microfiche and could look this up?  As I recall, they are held in quite a few places (including my local Genie Soc - but I'm no longer a member  :( ).  One set of my ancestors - STA(U)NTON indexed as STOUNSON! - arrived in Port Phillip on the 'Intrinsic' in 1841 and there was quite extensive information on the Fiche about the voyage.

We have William, Jane and Jane jnr in the 1841 census in England - but no Mary Ann, and no English birth registration has been found for her.  Like Lu, I have wondered whether Mary Ann was born on board the ship (and whether the '1' actually means '1 month') - warnings are often given of the unreliability of ages on passenger lists ...

Regards,

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Friday 09 November 07 07:41 GMT (UK)
Hi Trish     :)

Many thanks for your help.

[It was naughty of me not to have included the references ... and I had to go hunting WAY back to Page 2!
Post # 25  HAISMAN (sic) family on "Alexander" 1851, and #40 - 1841 census info] :

Cheers
Lu
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Friday 09 November 07 07:55 GMT (UK)
Hi All    :)

[re: Posts # 218 - 221   HEASMAN, Mary A. to Hokitika]

Have just had a look at the NZSG fiche record for Passenger Lists - VIC AUSTRALIA - Outwards and it appears the "HEASMAR" name on the PRO VIC online records, is probably a spelling error ?

Passenger Lists - Vic, Australia - outwards :

1866  (year)   No. 8084 (pass. no ?)
HEASMAN :  Mary A.     Age:  26
Status:    Single       Occupation:   not stated
Country (birth?)     UK
Accommodation:    Fore
Vessel:    "Taranaki"
Departed from:  Melbourne,    11 October 1866
Port arrived:   Hokitika (NZ)  (no date given)

[Record: PROV VPRS  -  Source: 948 - LDS Film 0284498]

Cheers

Lu

Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Friday 09 November 07 08:11 GMT (UK)
Hi

The "Alexander" arrived 24 Dec 1841 from Plymouth with 270 Bounty Immigrants-depending on which paper you look at it left England either 2nd Aug or 31st August 1841.

Is  Mortus Cardis heart disease??
I remember ages ago coming across a site which had admittance records to Melbourne Hospital back in 1860s or am I thinking of something else?Ring a bell with anyone?

Am attaching copy of the request for the orphanage-thought it might be nice for you to have

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Friday 09 November 07 08:38 GMT (UK)
1. Summaries (not all details included; I'm trying to keep them up to date  ;) but am inhibited by the 5000 character limit) are at:
* post #96 on page 7 (William HEASMAN/Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE family Part 1)
* post #144 on page 10 (Part 2)
* post #185  on page 13  (only Jane Elizabeth HEASMAN later WILKINSON later HARPER later reverted to WILKINSON)

2. The GSV (Genealogical Society of Victoria) has indexed many hospital records.  See:
http://www.gsv.org.au/Activities/indexing.htm
Admission records for Melb Hosp apparently cut out at 1860 but there are also Ward Books and these have been indexed for the relevant period.

3. Lu, do you have access to the Fiche for the Vic Assisted Passengers (for the 'Alexander')?

4. Yes, heart disease.  Apparently should read Morbus Cordis.

JAP 
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Friday 09 November 07 09:05 GMT (UK)
Hi

Found the site I was looking for

http://www.tfoenander.com/meldeath1.htm

No mention of Mr Balli but a handy site to check out.

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Friday 09 November 07 09:14 GMT (UK)
Well done Annie!

That site is mentioned on the GSV page I gave - but it's got a link to a URL which doesn't work.  Then I found another URL for it on another site but it didn't work either!  Great that you found a URL which works.

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Friday 09 November 07 09:59 GMT (UK)
Dear Annie

You're very kind ... thank you so much for orphanage record, yes, it is wonderful to have all these records.

Kind regards
Lu     :)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Friday 09 November 07 10:07 GMT (UK)
Hi JAP     :)

re 3 :    Have just  checked our Nat. Library catalogue and yes, looks like VIC assisted passengers are available.    Will see what's to be had for "Alexander"  1841.

Cheers
Lu
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Friday 09 November 07 11:57 GMT (UK)
Sorry Ladies

Couldn't wait any longer -here is the marriage of Amelia Heasman to Mr Bradley.

Note Peder Anderson is the witness

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Friday 09 November 07 13:25 GMT (UK)
Annie,

Good heavens!

Peter/Peder ANDERSEN/ANDERSON turns up again.

And Amelia's mother (Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE) is alive (as it says with the written consent of her mother, her father being dead).

There's no substitute for certificates!

It makes one more and more suspicious about Elizabeth Jane ANDERSON, b 1871, parents Peter ANDERSON & Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE (despite the fact that Jane would have been ca 52).  And also the death of George HEASMAN, 4, in 1870 - purported parents William HEASMAN & Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE, informant Peder ANDERSEN (Aumarire was thinking that George might be the George born to John BALLI & Mary Ann HEASMAN in 1865).

Twists and turns, twists and turns ...

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Friday 09 November 07 21:53 GMT (UK)
Good Morning

After a good nights sleep I have just looked at the Marriage Cert again for Amelia and realised the other witness is J E ANDERSON!-Jane Elizabeth perhaps???
We also have a address for them now in Fitzroy -does anyone have access to Wises Directories for Melbourne,hopefully we can follow them that way.

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Saturday 10 November 07 01:06 GMT (UK)
Hi Annie    :)

WOW !    Thank you so much for Amelia / James Bradley marriage.

Yes, I also spotted the J E Anderson /Andersen signature ... I think we may be able to compare that perhaps with the writing in Jane's "plea to the orphanage" letter .... can't remember whether it included her signature ?    [Had to dive off to the Nat. Library, so haven't had a chance to look - but will do so shortly].

Thanks again Annie.

Regards
Lu
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Saturday 10 November 07 01:16 GMT (UK)
Hi   All     :)

After trawling  through the mish-mash of shipping records at our Nat. Library this morning, on the very LAST record I viewed, and with two minutes to spare before closing time, I found this ...........

"ALEXANDER"   from Plymouth 30 August 1841
Arrived :  Port Phillip   27 December 1841

HAISMAN / HEASMAN family :
William (25)  Carpenter,     Jane (22)  wife
Jane E. (3 years)   and ....

             ~      Mary Ann  -  aged  7 weeks     ~

Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Saturday 10 November 07 01:29 GMT (UK)
Lu,

That's brilliant!  7 weeks, eh.

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Saturday 10 November 07 02:30 GMT (UK)
Hi JAP   

Yep,  7 weeks !    [Glad you gave me that wee nudge (ha ha) back at post # 231 - didn't realise these records were available over here] !

Must pop back to Nat. Lib. next week - there seems to be lots of "stuff" for VIC .... also noticed that they had SANDS directories ... [and "McGregors" ? directories ~ does that sound right]?

Cheers
Lu          :)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Saturday 10 November 07 02:52 GMT (UK)
Hi Annie and JAP     :)

.... now I 'ain't no handwriting expert, but ....
just looking at the signature and handwriting in Jane HEASMAN's letter to the creditors of Wm. Heasman,  [post # 141 - p. 10] and at the "J. E. Anderson / Andersen " on Amelia's marriage to Bradley,  ....  I get the feeling (from the signatures) that they are two different people  ???
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: aumarire on Saturday 10 November 07 03:35 GMT (UK)
Hi,
I only ever had an index number and year of birth for George Balli, the person I feel strongly is the child that died under the name of Heasman, however, I figured I might as well get the certificate, and make sure that I was barking up the correct tree ha ha, and here is what it gives,
George, born 14 July 1865 at Brandy Hot, Daylesford, father John Balli, a miner age 26 born in Switzerland, mother Marion nee Esmond, age 23, born Melbourne, married 1863  in Daylesford, previous issue to the marriage, James age 20 months, birth registered by John Balli, father, Brandy Hot.
Now, if this George is the same George that died on the 9th April  1870, then the age is correct, as George would have only been 4 years of age when he died,, just shy of being 5 by three months.
When Mary Ann/Marion died in 1890, George is NOT listed as being alive, the only children listed, from her first marriage were James and William. Now I know that was years later, but it does add a little something to perhaps make me believe my original thoughts that when Mary Ann/Marion takes off to New Zealand, and meets up with husband number 2 ( well, we are still not sure he was a husband as yet, as no marriage cert has been found), that the two children that had already been born to her are left in Melbourne with her mother Jane Elizabeth Heasman and that George died while in her care, hence he was registered as being her child. Of course, with this family, anything is possible, but I do tend to err on those thoughts.  By all means, any thoughts to prove me wrong would be most welcomed. ha ha
Aumarire.
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: aumarire on Saturday 10 November 07 03:58 GMT (UK)
Hi again,
Just thought I would let you all know that I have placed the certificates that I have on a web site that I use quite a lot. I have no affiliation to this site at all, but often tell people about it, as I think it so great. The site name is Australasia BDM exchange. The url is    http://www.ausbdm.org/  It obviously covers  both New Zealand and Australia. Now the idea is that if you have any spare certificates that perhaps you have purchased, and have not been of any use, that you place the info onto this site, and if anyone else would like a copy of the certificate, you DO NOT give them the cert., you just e-mail them the information that is contained on the cert.
I have placed all the certs that do not come into my research, but I also have added ALL the certificates that I have collected over the years, that DO connect into my family. I cannot tell you how many times people have made contact, inquiring about a particular certificate, only to find that they are the cousin or other member of the extended family  that I have been trying to track down for years.
I must have posted around 500 certificates by now, and while it was a big job placing all the info onto the site in the beginning, it sure has paid huge dividends for me. Of course, even if you make no connections, it is always nice to be able to help people out with their research, and sure as heck does save them money, if they are able to get the info from someone who already has purchased the certificate.
There is no cost at all for placing the certs on the site, and no cost for other people accessing the site, of course, as with all sites, you have to go through a process of registering,, but that is no hardship.
I also use the same system for the Scottish BDM exchange, and again there is no cost. i also use the English site, however, there is a cost of 5 pounds a year to join that one. On that note, if any of you would like me to do a look up on the English site, just ask, as I am a member, and have also added all my certificates on that site as well.
I will, in the next day or two, add the 5 birth registrations that are on the same page as my George Balli, and hope that it will help someone out with their research.
Just a thought,, in case you haven't heard of this site.
Aumarire

Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Saturday 10 November 07 04:14 GMT (UK)
1. I wouldn't discount the two signatures (Jane Heasman on the sad letter, and J E Anderson on Amelia's 1871 marriage cert) being from the same person.  The writing has rather the same general slope.  Yes, in the sad letter, Jane's 'J' sweeps down - but perhaps she was inhibited in the marr cert by the dotted line and tried to stay above it  :)  Indeed, the dotted line and the limited area may have been inhibiting in general - the sad letter is very flowing.  The 'E' is not unlike the 'E' in 'Enable' and the 'E' in 'Everybody' in the sad letter.  Admittedly the 'A' is nothing like the 'A' in 'A farthing' in the sad letter ...  But it's 15 years later.  And we do know that Jane Elizabeth (AYLMORE) HEASMAN must have been around at that time as she gave written consent to Amelia's marriage.

2. The hypothesis about George HEASMAN being George BALLI is very plausible.
BUT, even if that's correct, it still leaves the problem of who is Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE who, with Peter ANDERSON, had Elizabeth Ann ANDERSON b Coll Vic, 1871 #8221  ???

JAP
PS: Aumarire, I've put heaps of cert info on the Scottish BDM exchange - and always recommend it.  Also some on the Australian BDM exchange.
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Saturday 10 November 07 04:18 GMT (UK)
MARIAN CALDWELL, Presbyterian
              Compt O  Sec   Row   Grave 1608, Aged 43, Date of service 12/02/1890,
also in the grave  CALDWELL, WILLIAM Aged 84, Date of service  02/10/1928
                   CALDWELL, ELIZA  Aged 81, Date of service  22/03/1955


I  have been trying to  find where Jane E  Heasman  might be buried  she  is  not  with  this  daughter  in  the Melbourne Cemetery  as  you  can  see

kind  regards Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Saturday 10 November 07 05:51 GMT (UK)

Baptism- St James Church
Hesiman Mary Ann
Born 1 st Dec 1841
Bapt 27 March 1843
Father William Heisman occup Carpenter
Mother Jane
Abode Melbourne

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Saturday 10 November 07 06:44 GMT (UK)
OK, this family is tempting us all  ;D

Birth, Elizabeth Jane ANDERSON, 1871 #8221

- 4th Mar 1871
- 182 Gore St (Town) Fitzroy (County of) Bourke
- Elizabeth Ann present
- Female
- (Father) Peter ANDERSON 33, Carpenter, (b) Norway
- (Married) 1869 Fitzroy Victoria (no previous issue listed)
- (Mother) Jane Elizabeth ANDERSON formerly HEASMAN maiden name AYLMORE; age 41 (sic), born London
- (Informant - signed) Jane E ANDERSON, Mother, 182 Gore St Fitzroy
- (Accoucheur) Dr Durant
- (Registered) 5th May 1871, Collingwood

JAP
PS: What's a little dissembling about age (not to mention marriage)!
I have in my records a GgAunt who was 9 on the 1841 passenger list, pretty much the right age at her first two marriages, but suddenly became a spinster age 29 at her third marriage (should have been twice a widow, had had at least 4 children by then, and was aged ca 37).
And a GAunt who was b 1878 but died in 1947 aged 58 (should have been 69).
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Saturday 10 November 07 07:41 GMT (UK)
Gosh JAP

I just don't know-there is no way to get round this age thing with Jane.Her eldest child Jane is 33yr by this time.No way is she 41yrs .
Is this another attempt to pass off a grandchild as their own-I wonder??
This is happening a few months before Amelia's marriage.
Wonder if this child is Amelia's baby.

Has anyone found what become of this baby??
Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Saturday 10 November 07 07:54 GMT (UK)
Hi Annie,

Who knows!

Yes:
Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE (HEASMAN) was 22 when she came to Oz in 1841 so definitely ca 52 in 1871.
- George HEASMAN (purported parents William HEASMAN & Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE) dies April 1870 age 4, informant Peder ANDERSON; George possibly/probably George BALLI b Jul 1865, son of Mary Ann (HEASMAN) BALLI.
- Elizabeth Ann ANDERSON (purported parents Peter ANDERSON & Jane Elizabeth ANDERSON formerly HEASMAN nee AYLMORE) born March 1871
- Amelia HEASMAN (said to be 17 but really 20) marries Sept 1871; witnesses Peter & JE ANDERSON.

Will we ever know whether George HEASMAN is really a child of Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE or is really George BALLI?  Or whether Elizabeth Ann ANDERSON is really a child of Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE's?

No, we haven't found what happened to Elizabeth Ann ANDERSON.  Or to Peter ANDERSON.  Or to Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE/HEASMAN/ANDERSON.

And there's no sign I could find of a Peter ANDERSON/Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE/HEASMAN marriage (purported to be in Fitzroy in 1869).  See next post - marriage found by Raylen (post #252).  
What a saga!

JAP
PS: For my own sake (I'd be lost otherwise) I'm still trying to keep my Page 7 and Page 10 summaries up-to-date but ...  Note: Summaries now moved to Posts 275-277 on Page 19.
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Raylen on Saturday 10 November 07 08:14 GMT (UK)
Hello to you all

I have been following this saga with interest and wondered if the following might
be the marriage you mentioned.

Marriage in Victoria 1869 Reg 4625
Peter Henderson born Norway married
Jane Elizabeth Heannan born London

I might be wrong but it looks a possibility. 
Sorry if it is not relevant.

Raylen
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: aumarire on Saturday 10 November 07 08:27 GMT (UK)
Hi,
The following was mentioned with regard the burial of

MARIAN CALDWELL, Presbyterian
              Compt O  Sec   Row   Grave 1608, Aged 43, Date of service 12/02/1890,
also in the grave  CALDWELL, WILLIAM Aged 84, Date of service  02/10/1928
                   CALDWELL, ELIZA  Aged 81, Date of service  22/03/1955.
I would imagine that the Eliza Caldwell that is in this grave is in fact the daughter of Mary Ann/Marion Caldwell, formerly Balli nee Heasman and her second husband William Caldwell. They had a daughter named Eliza Jane Caldwell, born in Kanieri on the 25th  December 1872. I have never found a marriage for this daughter, so it would appear that she has never married. She would have been 82 years of age when she died, not 81 as shown.
I will in the next few days try to locate a death notice in the Melbourne papers, to double check.
Aumarire
P.S. I say I will check for a death notice, however, having said that, I have a visitor arriving for a week, so don't know how much time I am going to have for the next 6 days.
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: aumarire on Saturday 10 November 07 08:32 GMT (UK)
Hi,
Opps, meant to ask, does anyone know of any on-line Melbourne newspaper death  notices that I could check, something along the lines of the Ryerson Index's that are available for the Sydney area.
Aumarire
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Saturday 10 November 07 08:41 GMT (UK)
Hello Raylen,

What an absolutely brilliant find!!

Thank you, thank you!

Yes, it has to be the right people.

Congratulations,

JAP
PS: You've been 'following the saga', eh.  Not the easiest thing to do  ;)
PPS: I've amended Part 2 of my Summary (Page 10) but it's becoming an even great challenge to keep below the 5000 character limit for Part 2 and also for Part 1 (Page 7).  They are probably becoming incomprehensible as I delete words like 'and', 'the', 'a', etc, etc ...
Note: Summaries now moved to Posts 275-277 on Page 19
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Saturday 10 November 07 09:12 GMT (UK)
Hi All   

I had to disappear for a few hours .... and I've come back to all this amazing stuff !

Jenn   :)     Annie    :)       JAP    :)

Wonderful efforts ~  thank you all SO much.


LU
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Saturday 10 November 07 09:14 GMT (UK)
Don't  forget Rayleen  Lu

 She  has  had  tremendous  find  looks  like  it  is  the  marriage.

Regards Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Saturday 10 November 07 09:25 GMT (UK)
Hi  Jenn

.... no I won't forget ... just working down thru the replies in order.


 :)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Saturday 10 November 07 09:40 GMT (UK)
Hi Annie    :)

I might have to go back and have another look at that passenger list for the "Alexander" ~ where it said "Mary Ann - 7 weeks"  ?     

The baptism records d.o.b. as 1 Dec 1841 which sort of indicates she may have been born during voyage ?
I wonder if those pass. lists from PRO-VIC are the emigration officers lists at point of departure ?   ("7 weeks old  would mean she was born say, early July 1841) ?

Cheers
Lu
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Saturday 10 November 07 09:58 GMT (UK)
Hi   ALL

JAP  .....    O. M. G.  !      G-G Gran had a TOY BOY !

[How 'bad" is that ?   Especially if she was really 52 !
Oh, and another daughter  ...  bet the happy couple were really hoping for a boy ? ]     :o

ANNIE  :   Great thinking   .... possibly Amelia's child.

Yep, I dunno .....   way back I was thinking it may be a child of Jane Elizabeth (the eldest daughter)  ...  but Amelia's a distinct possibility.

Lu
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Saturday 10 November 07 10:17 GMT (UK)
Hi Raylen     :)

Welcome aboard !

Thank you so much for your wonderful contribution ... and yes, I absolutely think it's "them" !

Transcribers have had a "ball" with this HEASMAN surname ~ some variations have been especially peculiar.   The "Henderson / Anderson" one though is rather easier to sort out  ...  with the Norway birthplace.

That was a great find Raylen .... and thanks for your support [loads of excitement eh?]

Kind regards
Lu       :)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Saturday 10 November 07 10:25 GMT (UK)
Quote
JAP  .....    O. M. G.  !      G-G Gran had a TOY BOY


hey  Lu  re this quote

gggran  must  have  written  that well know song  Norwegian Wood

a  naughty  Jenn ;D

Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Saturday 10 November 07 10:35 GMT (UK)
Dear "Naughty" Jenn    :o

..... yeah ....  I suppose if the Norwegian "could", then he "wood" ...   and it seems .... he "did " !
[Don't reckon g-g- gran "wood've" had much time for writing songs though  ... eh?]

Cheers
Lu      :)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Saturday 10 November 07 23:06 GMT (UK)
Lucy
Well there is good news and bad news re the latest in this wonderful saga.

The good news is Jane must be been quite well preserved and good looking to pass herself off as 41yrs-especially in those days.

The bad news is this family is really bad at maths.

Just been trying to find Amelia and James Bradley-no luck so far but did find his baptism:
Christening:  10 AUG 1828  North Wingfield, Derby, England parents Job Bradley and Mary Berrisford.
This actually makes him 43 yrs old not 38yrs when he married Amelia who was really 20yrs old not 17yrs.

Do you think that Amelia was passing herself off as 17yrs because of Jane wanted her to pretend to be younger so Peter Anderson didn't realise she was a great deal older .He might of truly believed that young George was really Jane and William's son and perhaps wanted children himself.
Are you going to download the marriage cert-it will hopefully tell us how long Jane was "widowed"

Also found another child for Rachel Parkin
Charles Leslie Parkin born 1893 Albert Park

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Saturday 10 November 07 23:13 GMT (UK)
Hi Annie    :)

I might have to go back and have another look at that passenger list for the "Alexander" ~ where it said "Mary Ann - 7 weeks"  ?     

The baptism records d.o.b. as 1 Dec 1841 which sort of indicates she may have been born during voyage ?
I wonder if those pass. lists from PRO-VIC are the emigration officers lists at point of departure ?   ("7 weeks old  would mean she was born say, early July 1841) ?

Cheers
Lu
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Saturday 10 November 07 23:15 GMT (UK)
Lu
Sorry hit the button too soon

I also checked the shipping list it did say 7 weeks old

but  as I say this family is really bad at maths

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: aumarire on Saturday 10 November 07 23:44 GMT (UK)
Hi again,
Funny that James Bradley's Christening has just been found and noted on this thread, as I had just had a look for this as well, and also came up with the Christening of James Bradley as 10 August 1828. In the christening record and also on his marriage registration to Amelia Heasman, the parents are named as Job Bradley and Mary nee Beresford. I found their marriage in the IGI as Job Bradley and Mary Berrisford on the 7th April 1828, some four months before his christening.
So yes, assuming that James was born a month or so before his christening, he was NOT 38 years of age when he married, he was approx. 43 years of age. This is of course assuming that the James born in 1828 did not go and die, and another child born a few years later was named after the first born, although I have not been able to locate another James Bradley.
Aumarire
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: aumarire on Sunday 11 November 07 00:42 GMT (UK)
Hi again,
Oh my goodness,, I hate to put a possible cat amongst the pigeons, and I will keep my possible???#### info to myself at the moment, just in case I am barking up the wrong tree, but can anyone tell me if there has been a death located for either  James Bradley or Amelia Bradley nee Heasman.

Aumarire
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Sunday 11 November 07 00:58 GMT (UK)
can anyone tell me if there has been a death located for either  James Bradley or Amelia Bradley nee Heasman.
Aumarire

Not on this thread ...
Only the marriage - no children or deaths found so far.

Don't keep us in suspense  ::)

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Sunday 11 November 07 01:26 GMT (UK)
Dear Annie    :)

You're a CHAMPION !    More great finds  ... thanks so much.

Yes, I will download the marriage cert ... just bear with me whilst I work out "what to do" .

Bad maths  ... hey, nothing at all comes as a surprise with this lot !   [I thought it was bad enough Amelia (20) hooking up with a 38 year old with five kids ] !

Yep, it's got me beat how Jane presumably passed herself off as some ten years younger  .... can only guess that she was either a "ravishing beauty", or that poor Mr Peter, was
a blind man ?    Mother and daughter in "cahoots"   ... a real possibility!

re:  Mary Ann / Marion - passenger list - 1841 :   Thanks for re-checking   - "7 weeks" was very clearly written on the list that I looked at too.

Charles Leslie PARKIN  - Rachel's boy ....  gosh she had quite a brood  ... seems though to have been the "quiet"  one in the family...  (hope I haven't spoken too soon) ?

Thanks again Annie will now see if I can get this marriage cert.

Cheers
Lu        :)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Sunday 11 November 07 01:41 GMT (UK)

Please Aumarire  as JAP says "Don't keep us in suspense  "

I have been trying to find James Bradley's 1st family but I cannot find a wife dying in 1865 as cert says.
I did find a death of a James Bradley in 1879 aged 50yrs born Lancashire -which I suppose is not far from Derbyshire.
I also have been trawling through all Peter Andersons dying -with my calculator trying to work out ages-several possibilities.
Really need to find someone with access to the street directories to follow them a little bit more.

But we have made it to 1871 which considering everything I think is a miracle!
Nothing like "The Brains Trust"working together.

 Attached is marriage of Rachel another case of bad maths

Annie


Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Sunday 11 November 07 01:51 GMT (UK)
Hello  JAP

Just a  observation  here
 Are you  be able  to  pop  your  summarries together ,  say  cut and  paste  each  one so  they  run  consectutively so  newbies  don't have  to  trawl  back  trying  to  make  sense  of  it all.  I  am  not  making  myself too  plain  here but I  hope you  will  understand what I  am trying  to say

kind regards Jenn

oh  and AM  stop  teasing  us all ;D 
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Sunday 11 November 07 01:54 GMT (UK)
Jenn

What I did was copy and paste JAP's summaries into a email and sent to myself.
Works well

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Sunday 11 November 07 02:24 GMT (UK)
OK Jenn.

I've just copied the two main summaries into Word documents.

In a minute, I'll post each again on this page so they are together (or closer together).

Then I'll go back and delete them on pages 7 and 10 leaving only a cross-reference.

Then I'll clean up any references in the re-posted summaries which no longer apply (e.g. if the page numbers have changed.

JAP
PS: I've divided the summaries into 3 (instead of the previous 2) parts.  This should give me an extra 5000 characters to play with as (if?) more information comes to hand.  And this post can always be used too if a Part 4 is needed (i.e. I could move part of Part 1 up into this post and then re-arrange the other 3 Parts accordingly ...
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Sunday 11 November 07 02:25 GMT (UK)
POTTED SUMMARY OF THE FAMILY OF

William HEASMAN (however spelled) & Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE

PART 1 (PARTS 2 & 3 follow)

Preamble
*William HAISMAN (sic) married Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE, 18 Jul 1836, St Dunstan, Stepney, London (IGI)
  Jane Elizth AYLMORE, parents Josiah and Ann, was bap 5 Aug 1818, Saint Thomas, Portsmouth, Hampshire; her parents, Josiah AYLMORE & Ann REEVES (named on Jane's second marriage cert - see Post #297 on Page 20) were m 1816 St Mary's Portsea.  Jane had siblings Ann HELMORE or AYLMORE bap 1816 Holy Trinity Gosport Hampshire; Amelia AYLMORE bap 1821 St Mary's Portsea Hampshire; George Reeves AYLMORE bap 1823 St John's Portsea.  For more information about the AYLMORE family see Post #307 on Page 21.

They had in London:
*Jane Elizabeth HEASMAN, born September quarter 1838, Poplar, Volume 2, Page 286; bap 12 April 1840, St Dunstan Stepney as HEUSMAN
*Ann Amelia HEUSMAN also bap 12 April 1840, St Dunstan Stepney; her birth or death record has not been found on FreeBMD.   (It is assumed that Ann Amelia did not survive)

The family is in the 1841 census as follows:
St Anne, Limehouse, Middlesex
HEAMAN (sic)
*William (24) turner J., not born Middlesex
*Jane (22) not born Middlesex
*Jane (2) born Middlesex

The family migrated to Victoria, Australia (then part of the Colony of New South Wales) as Assisted British Immigrants on the ship ‘Alexander’ which left Plymouth 30 Aug 1841 and arrived Port Phillip 27 December 1841.
The passenger list records:
HAISMAN
*William (25), Carpenter
*Jane (22)
*Jane (3)
*Mary Ann (7 weeks)

Children of William HEASMAN & Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE
1. Jane Elizabeth birth Sep qtr 1838 Poplar, London England; bap 12 Apr 1840 St Dunstan Stepney, London England
     *Jane HEASMAN m Charles WILKINSON, 1856 NSW ref: 844/1856; this was Charles's third
         marriage.  It is thought that Charles might have been a convict (his second wife
         was convict Mary Ann MILTON, 1846 NSW, with whom he had two children in NSW,
         Charles Fletcher 1849 and William T H 1850)
Children of Jane & Charles:
  *Rachel b ca 1857 (perhaps Rachel WILKINSON b Vic 1858, mother Jane WILKINSON, no father mentioned)
  *Male b & d as infant 1858 Chippendale NSW
  *Female b & d as infant 1860 Chippendale NSW
  *Male born Chippendale 1861 #2934; d as Walter in Victoria, b Sydney, age 11 mths, 1862 #1089 (see Post 362 on Page 25 for cert); d 10 Feb 1862 at 9 Argyle St Fitzroy, informant Rachel HEASMAN of same address, 2 months in Vic, bur Melb Gen Cem
  *Child (no name or sex) born Redfern 1864 #3463 (thought to be Frances who was 4 when Charles d in 1868)
  *Laura b Emerald Hill Vic 1867 #8087 (thought to be Florence who was 1 when Charles d in 1868)
Note: a Charles WILKINSON, Clerk (Treasury) is listed in the Sands&McDougall directory in Redfern in 1861 and 1863.

     Charles WILKINSON (53), b Cheshire, 31 yrs in NSW, 3 in Vic, died St Kilda, Vic Dec 1868 #9891; bur St Kilda Cemetery (see post #177 for cert - lists issue of his marriage to Jane as Rachael 11, Walter dead, Frances 4, Florence 1)

     *Jane Elizabeth WILKINSON (b London) m William Thomas HARPER (b Birmingham) 1869 Vic #4673 (see Post #296 on Page 20 for certificate)

Note:  1870 Apr; Jane Elizabeth HARPER, wife of William Thomas HARPER Sydney, made application re estate of Charles WILKINSON (says he died leaving her with 5 children); William gave permission for his wife to make the application.
Note: a Frances 6 and a Florence WILKINSON, 3 were admitted to the Orphan School, NSW, Sept 1870 (father dead, mother unable to support).

       William Thomas HARPER (born Birm), age 25, d Victoria 1871 #9037

Note: Florence was released to her mother's care, Jan 1872
Florence, 5 1/2, was re-admitted Jan 1873 (mother has another child to support).
Florence was released to her mother's care, June 1874.
Frances was released to her mother's care, July 1874.
   
     *Jane E WILKINSON died Granville NSW 1919/22654 (Heasman listed in father column).  Her estate (a cottage in Rozelle, NSW) was bequeathed to grandson Cecil PAYNE, son of her daughter Florence.
Note: A separate summary re Jane Elizabeth is at Post #185, Page 13

2. Ann Amelia bap 12 April 1840 St Dunstan Stepney, London, England (presumably died before the 1841 census)

Continued in next post ...

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Sunday 11 November 07 02:25 GMT (UK)
POTTED SUMMARY (ctd) OF THE FAMILY OF

William HEASMAN (however spelled) & Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE

PART 2 (PART 3 follows)

Children of William HEASMAN & Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE (ctd)

3. Mary Ann born 1841 (age 7 weeks on passenger list); bap (as HESIMAN) with dob as 1 Dec 1841, in 1843 St James Melbourne Vic #13193
Note: See posts #211-212
     *Marion HEASMAN 21 (b Melb) m John BALLI 24 (b Switzerland) 1863 Daylesford #1380.
Children of Mary Ann/Marion & John:
  *James BALLI b 1864, Dayl, #1926 (mother's name Mary Ann ISSMAN)
  *George BALLI b Jul 1865, Daylesford, #14820 (mother's name Marion ESMOND - see post #244, page 17 for cert details) - it has been suggested that he might be the George HEASMAN who d 1870 age 4 (see Part 3 of the summary)

Note: Mary A HEASMAN, 26, single, went to Hokitika, NZ Oct 1866 on 'Taranaki'
  *William BALLI b May 1867, Kainere NZ (later took name CALDWELL - see post #212)

     John BALLE (sic) died 1867 Vic # 6304; bur Melb Cemetery (see post #226)

Note: A Mrs BALLI (23) went to NZ Jun 1868 on 'Auckland' - subsequently suggested that this is a transcription error; fiche show that it was a Mrs BALK from Scotland.
Note: Mary Ann/Marion married(?) William Richard CALDWELL ca 1868; they had 7 children - Joseph Henry, Marion ca 1870, Thomas ca 1872, Eliza ca 1874, John Edward ca 1876, Joseph Henry ca 1878, and also a William Henry (see post #224).
     *Marion CALDWELL (nee HEASMAN, mother's name ELMORE) d 1890 South Melb Vic aged 43; bur Melb Cemetery (William CALDWELL, 1928, 84 and Eliza CALDWELL, 1955, 81 in same grave - Post #247, Page 17).
 
4. William Richard, bap 16 Sept 1846 St James CE, Melbourne Vic #14885 (birth date not shown)
Note: William's age is 9 on petition for admission to Orphan School, NSW, Oct 1859.
     *William R HEASMAN m Harrul (i.e. Harriet) J NEWBY Wellington NSW 511/1878
     *William R HEASMAN d Wellington NSW  6810/1897 parents unknown.
Note: William (as HEASEMAN) & Harriet (as COURT - she remarried, d 1918) bur in Wellington General Cem NSW; impressive gravestone photo on Australian Cemeteries site - it has William's age as 56 (has William's death date as May 1896 - perhaps headstone erected after Harriet's death and this is an error?).
Note: Is this the son of William HEASMAN & Jane AYLMORE?

5. Ann Amelia, bap 16 Sep 1846 St James CE Melbourne, Vic #14886 (birth date not shown)
Note: Ann, '8', admitted to Orphan School, NSW, Oct 1856; released into the care of sister, Mrs WILKINSON, in 1859.
     *Annie HEASMAN m Alexander MORININI (b Switzerland) 1862, #4360, Castlemaine (both resident Hepburn) Vic (see Post #312 on Page 21 for cert - father listed as William HEASMAN dead, mother Jane HEASMAN now BRANSGROVE ms AILMORE)
Children of Annie & Alexander:
  *Amelia MORININI, b Sand, Vic 1864 #11429 (Annie's name as HAESMAN)

Note: Annie went to NZ (say 1865?).  Married(?) John/Thomas RICHINGS, a butcher. They had Thomas RICHINGS (ca 1872-1958) and Lily RICHINGS (ca 1874-1917); both said to be b Blenheim.

Note: Alexander MORININI ?and Amelia probably died in shipwreck of 'General Grant' (bound for London), 1866.

     *Annie MORININI, widow, b Melb Vic, 66 years in NZ, age 84, parents William & Jane Elizabeth HEASMAN, d 1931, Christchurch NZ
Note: James RICHINGS, b ca 1890, is a nephew of Thomas (perhaps James a pre-nuptial son of Lily's?).  Lily RICHINGS m Francis COATES; Lily 'OATES' is buried in same grave as Annie MORININI.
Note: Various NZ records (Blenheim, Dunedin, Christchurch) re John/Thomas RICHINGS (variously spelled) including bankruptcy; he d in accident, Christchurch 1898 leaving 'wife and grown up family of two' (see posts #43 & #46).

6. Rachel, bap St James CE, Melb Vic 1848 #15937
Note: Rachel, age '6', admitted to Orphan School, NSW 1856; released into care of sister, Mrs WILKINSON, 1859.
10 Feb 1862, informant of death of Walter WILKINSON, son of her sister Jane Elizabeth, at 9 Argyle St, Fitzroy, Vic
     *Rachel HEASMAN m Donald CAMERON (birthplaces not indexed) Creswick Vic (both resident in Daylesford) 1865 #2424 (for certificate see post #271 on this page)
Children of Rachel & Donald (all born Ballarat, Vic) were:
  *Catherine CAMERON 1866; Kate CAMERON (b Ballt) m Joseph DUFFIELD (b Eng) 1905; Kate & Joseph had Ida Kathleen DUFFIELD 1906 and Arthur Bruce DUFFIELD 1907, both b Hawthorn; DUFFIELD Cath, father Cameron Donald, mother Rachael PARKIN (sic), died age 72, at PRAHRAN, Vic, 1938, #8714
  *Eliza CAMERON 1868; HUME Eliza, father Cameron Donald, mother Rachel HEASMAN, died age 88 at COBU (probably Coburg) 1957 #249 - Eliza is buried at the Coburg Cemetery
  *Donald CAMERON 1870; he d 1897 Stawell Vic #7005
  *Mary Jane CAMERON 1872;  she is probably the following - ROY Jane Mary Camero, father Cameron unknown, mother Rachel unknown, died age 89 at REGE, 1962, #8227

Donald CAMERON snr died Vic, age 34, 1875 #477.

Continued in next post ...

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Sunday 11 November 07 02:27 GMT (UK)
POTTED SUMMARY (ctd) OF THE FAMILY OF

William HEASMAN (however spelled) & Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE

PART 3

(Rachel continued)

    *Rachel CAMERON (birthplace not listed) married William PARKIN (born Sunderland) 1876 #1532
Children of Rachel and William were:
  *Ann Amelia PARKIN b 'EHIL' 1879
     Ann Amelia PARKIN & Jno Wm Geo QUICK had Geo Alymore (sic) QUICK 1903, Melbourne South; Ada Mary QUICK 1913, Richmond; also (from deaths) John William QUICK d 1974 age 74, David Leslie QUICK d 1978 age 63
   -QUICK Ann Amelia, father Parkin William, mother Rachel HEASEMAN (sic), died age 77, at Melbourne, 1956, #11302
  *(twin) Edith PARKIN at 'EMERALD' 1881; she m Westgarth Charles Walker MUIR 1909; Westgarth d 1944 age 65 (he went to WW1).  Edith & Westgarth had Alan Cameron MUIR b 1913 S Melb, Archie Westgarth MUIR b 1914 S Melb
   -MUIR Edith, father Parkin William, mother Rachel HEIZMAN (sic), died age 73, at FITZ, 1956, #7892
  *(twin) William John PARKIN at 'EMERALD' 1881 (may have gone to Boer War?)
  *Charles Leslie PARKIN at Albert Park 1893 (note: long gap since previous children); he m Lillian CALDWELL 1920 Vic #14167
  - Charles Leslie PARKIN d 1973 Sydney (had wife Lillian, one son)

     *Rachel PARKIN, father Heasman Wm (that's how it appears in the index), mother Jane Eliz AYLMORE, died age 89, 1938, at Kew, Vic #7729
Note: See Post #14 on Page 1 for further information about Rachel's children and grandchildren.
 
7. Amelia, b 18 Mar, bap 6 Jun 1851, St Peters CE, Melbourne Vic #27008
     Amelia HEASMAN 17 (sic) ( b Melb) m James BRADLEY 38 (b Derbyshire, widower with 5 children) Fitzroy Vic, Sept 1871, #3546 (see post #236 for cert.).
Note: Amelia's marriage was with the written consent of her mother, her father being dead.  Witnesses Peder ANDERSON & J E ANDERSON (see note E below).

Notes:
A. More details than are in this summary are in the thread itself.

B. William HEASMAN of the Palmer St Hotel, Woolloomooloo, was declared bankrupt in 1855 in NSW; accused with two others (Ebenezer BRANSGROVE - see below - & Frederick Alfred POOLE) of fraudently removing, and hiding, possessions from the hotel before his insolvency was formalized.  The police were subsequently unable to locate William.  BRANSGROVE & POOLE were tried (Mrs J EASTMAN was a witness for the prisoners) and convicted in June 1855.  A month later the convictions were quashed.
Jane Elizabeth (AYLMORE) HEASMAN wrote a letter (undated) asking the creditors to return her children's clothes (see post #141, page 10).
Stated in the petition for admission of the HEASMAN children in Oct 1856, that William HEASMAN had died 16 months earlier.  At Amelia HEASMAN's marriage in 1871, it is stated that her father is dead.   

C.  Index to Orphan Schools.
www.records.nsw.gov.au (online indexes)
Date of Petition 18 Oct 1856
Requests admission into the Orphan School of:
William HEASMAN 9
Ann HEASMAN 8
Rachel HEASMAN 6
Amelia HEASMAN 5
Parents William (dead?) and Jane Heasman (who had been supporting them by her own efforts but no longer able to do so due to infirmity).
William and Amelia were rejected (Schools overcrowded) but Ann and Rachel were admitted.
They were released into the care of their sister, Mrs WILKINSON of Redfern, 19 April 1859.

D. The passenger list for the 'City of Sydney' (Melb to Syd) 1860 includes a W HEASMAN (see post #131, page 9)

E. (i)At the 1862 marriage of Annie (i.e. Ann Amelia) HEASMAN to MORININI (see Part 2), her father was listed as William HEASMAN dead, and mother as Jane HEASMAN now BRANSGROVE ms AILMORE)
Ebenezer BRANSGROVE is in an 1859 Melbourne directory at 100 Latrobe St E; and E BRANSGROVE appears in 1865 at Victoria Pde east, Collingwood.  Ebenezer BRANSGROVE, b London, clerk, arr free in Sydney 1855.  Admitted to gaol (see B above) 15 Mar 1855, discharged 21 Jul 1855.  Charged (as Benjamin) with theft, Sydney 1867, sentenced to 6 mths, admitted (as Ebenezer) 23 Apr 1867; transferred 9 May 1867 to Parramatta Asylum (criminal lunatic), died there 6 Nov 1868. Reg 1868/5912 (age given as ca 56).
(ii) 1869 #4625 Vic, Peter HENDERSON (sic) b Norway married Jane Elizabeth HEANNAN (sic) b London (for details of certificate see Post #297 on Page 20 - Jane Elizabeth ms AYLMORE says her first husband William died in 1867).
(iii) April 1870, a George HEASMAN d in Emerald Hill (i.e. South Melbourne) Vic, born Melbourne, parents William HEASMAN & Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE, 1870, age 4, #4125.  Informant is Peder ANDERSEN (for details of cert see post #181, p 13).
Perhaps George might really be George BALLI, son of John BALLI & Mary Ann HEASMAN, b July 1865 Daylesford Vic? 
(iv) March 1871, a child, Elizabeth Ann ANDERSON, born in Fitzroy Vic to a Peter ANDERSON, 33, a Carpenter b Norway, & a Jane Elizabeth ANDERSON formerly HEASMAN maiden name AYLMORE, 41, b London.
Jane would really have been ca 52 by 1871.
(v) Sept 1871, at the marriage (with written consent of her mother) of Amelia HEASMAN (post #236 , p16) witnesses were Peter & JE ANDERSON.

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: aumarire on Sunday 11 November 07 04:24 GMT (UK)
Hi folks,
Now, with regard Mary Ann/Marion, as per the summary above, Mary Ann born 1841, age 7 weeks on the passenger list) bapt as Hesiman with dob as 1 Dec 1841, baptised in 1843 at St James Melbourne.
Now, I do really think, after much working through with the dates that my Mary Ann/Marion has given at time of marriage, and children's births etc, that this is my Great  Great Grandmother ( I have previously thought there might be yet another, because of the Mary Ann and Marion scenario) however, my question is this -
If the passenger list states she was 7 weeks old, that is fine,, the ship left Plymouth 30 August 1841 and arrived Port Phillip 27 December 1841. Fine, this means that she was born on board the ship, if the date of birth on her baptism is correct, as it states, she was born on the 1 Dec 1841, but the ship did not arrive until 27th December.
So why would she be listed as a 7 week old. She would have been only 1 week old at the time of arrival.
Another thing,,, always,, and this is the only thing that has never changed, she has always recorded her place of birth as Melbourne. Now I do understand that if she was born just one week before arrival in Melbourne , that she naturally would classify herself ( well ,, I suppose her parents would have told her the story about her birth on the ship)  as being born in Melbourne. But if she is recorded as being 7 weeks of age on the passenger list, I would imagine ( and I would be pleased to be corrected if I am barking up the wrong tree) that the age would have been stated at the time of departure from England.
Now my next question is this, I have googled a search for any information regarding the ship Alexander, hoping to find the impossible,, perhaps someone has written a dairy on the trip ( yeah I know,, the wonderment of hope ha ha ) but has anyone actually sighted the original shipping list,, not the transcribed shipping list.

The reason I ask this is that, like with our Morinini,,, who in a number of books is transcribed as being Morrison, on board the General grant,,,, ( bad transcriptions) so I wondered if perhaps ( oh please, let it be ha ha!!) that she is actually listed as a 1 week old on arrival. Now then, this would all make sense to me,
Or have I missed something here.

Aumarire
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Sunday 11 November 07 04:45 GMT (UK)
Hello  there 
JAP 
Thats  is  just  terrific, with it alltogether it will  make  it easier for  others,  I  had  cut and  pasted  to  word document  where  I  have  little  notes  to  myself when  ruling  things  out.

Now  how many pages  long can  this  thread be  before  a  new one has  too start ? is  it 21?

kind  regards Jenn

Probably  have  to  ask  Kris  or  Dee that! 

Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Sunday 11 November 07 05:09 GMT (UK)
Dear  JAP      :)

Wonderful summarising ... thanks soooo much !

From ALL of us        :)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Sunday 11 November 07 05:10 GMT (UK)
Aumarire,  I always go for the simple explanation (Occam's Razor!) and so have never doubted that there's only one Mary Ann/Marion/Marian ever since we first came across her BALLI & CALDWELL connexions back on Page 6  :)

Her date of birth is something which might or might not be able to be resolved.

Perhaps Lu will be able to have a more relaxed look at the Fiche (I think she said that she found Mary Ann at 2 minutes to closing time!).

I know that, for one set of my Irish lot who arrived in Port Phillip in 1841 as Bounty Immigrants, the fiche included a detailed report about the journey and the passengers.  It lists my family with ages, occupations, religion, whether able to read and write (not too reliable! - my Ggma Julia, listed as Judy, aged 2 was said to be able to read and write!!), wherefrom, and the bounty paid.
The report included a reference to the number of deaths (7) and the number & sex of births (5 females & 1 male) during the voyage.
Whether it specifically named who died and who was born in the individual entries I don't know - it didn't involve my lot and I have only a partial transcription of the report made about 8 years ago (why didn't I copy it, eh!).

Over the course of this thread, we've seen varying departure and arrival dates for the 'Alexander'.  And we've seen Mary Ann as 1 on the passenger list on the PROV, and 7 weeks from Lu.  And we don't know whether those are ages at departure or on arrival.  Perhaps there is further information to be found on the fiche.

Now a couple of other thoughts.

1. Charles Leslie PARKIN b 1893 - that's a long gap from the previous known births (Edith & William John in 1881).
Has anyone found any between 1881 and 1893?  I can't check the index but am wondering ... (shades of Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE/HEASMAN/ANDERSON?).
A David Leslie QUICK, son of Rachel's daughter Ann Amelia PARKIN and John William George QUICK, died 1978 age 63.  

2. We don't actually have any proof that William R HEAS(E)MAN who m 'Harrul' J NEWBY in Wellington NSW in 1878, and died in Wellington NSW in 1897 is the son, William Richard, of William HEASMAN & Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE, do we.  It's the only time Wellington came into the picture.  William's parents were not named in the death index.  His age on the headstone inscription is 56 (gives dob of ca 1840) whereas 'our' William was bap 1846 and was said to be aged 9 on the 1856 Orphan School petition.  And there is another HEASEMAN (Henry d 1858 aged 76) in Wellington.

JAP
PS: Pls give a yell everyone if I've left out anything major in the re-posted summaries.  I know I've found some myself - I lost bits in the cutting & pasting, esp in making 2 parts into 3.  
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Sunday 11 November 07 05:15 GMT (UK)
Also  we  have  a  record  for a W. Heasman
on  the CITY OF SYDNEY ship  from Melbourne  to Sydney  11/5/1860  he was a passenger  in Steerage.

This  MIGHT be  William  R.  Heasman    returning to  Sydney!

regards JEnn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Sunday 11 November 07 05:57 GMT (UK)
Hi Jenn,

I'd wondered about that when it was first posted.
IF William R's baptism (1846) was soon after his birth, and IF William R's age on the 1856 Orphan School petition (9) was right, that would make him only about 14 in 1860 ...

I think the earliest dates we have HEASMANs back in Vic (after the 1855 bankruptcy etc in NSW) were the death of Walter WILKINSON in Vic in 1862, and Annie's marriage to MORININI, also in 1862 ...

Who knows ...

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Sunday 11 November 07 06:23 GMT (UK)
Hi Aumarire

In addition to the points already made by JAP ~

The "Alexander" passenger list was only quickly viewed by me yesterday.     "Mary Ann ~ 7 weeks" is what was recorded under the listing for the HAISMAN (sic) family.   At that point, that was all the information I was actually looking for (you'll see at #266 annecaroline's post, that she too has found a record which states "7 weeks").

Obviously I wasn't to know that a short time later , our clever Annie (annecaroline - post #248) would find the baptism record for Mary Ann giving her birthdate as "1 Dec
1841"!    Having this new info, now brings into question, whether Mary Ann was 7 weeks of age at the time of leaving England (30 Aug 1841) ....  OR ... whether she may have been born during the voyage !     That means the passenger list now needs to be looked at again to see whether (a) Mary Ann is recorded as "born at sea" .... and / or  (b)   whether (this pass. list) is the emigration agents list prepared before departure, or it has been compiled at the time of arrival of the "Alexander" !     (I'm not sure whether these PROV records are available for viewing in your area) ?
Incidentally, they appear to be "photographed" copies of original lists.

I agree that Mary Ann / Marion is most usually shown as having the birthplace "Melbourne".

There is though the record for a "Mary Ann HEASMAN" voyage to Hokitika - 1866, giving an age which equates to an 1840-41 birthdate, and also a "UK" place of birth (though presumably an Australian citizen of that era was termed a British subject) ?     This may not of course be Mary Ann BALLI (nee HEASMAN) ... but we haven't found a Mary Ann or Marion BALLI on a passenger list to NZ !

Lu
    
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Sunday 11 November 07 06:33 GMT (UK)
Hi

It would appear both Lucy and I looked at the exact same shipping record.I did check to see if there were any notes about births or deaths on voyage but no mention made.

I have also looked at the baptism of William he was baptised 16 Sept 1846 along with Ann Amelia the same day -no birth date is recorded.
They were the only two on the page who didn't have a birth date-naturally!
Forgot to mention I also looked at Cecil Payne 's will .He died 29 May 1938 .Address was "Bayview"Henley Marine Drive,Drummoyne.He was aged 46yrs.Left everything to his wife Christina and if she died to any children he may of had.(Didn't actually say if he did or mention any names)
The Executrix was his sister inlaw Helen Gove.I found this Helen Gove dying in 1974 and her sister Christina Payne was still alive then as she was mentioned in the death notice.
So I would say age wise Cecil is the Frances C born to Florence.
Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Sunday 11 November 07 06:46 GMT (UK)
Lucy

Do you actually have the MORININI marriage certificate?

And have the ITMs been looked at for both Ann Amelia and Mary Ann under Heasman,Morinini,Balli and various spellings etc

I have just realised that Jane Wilkinson married the same year her mother did -not far apart in reg numbers.
I think I will get the Wilkinson marriage -this is just so much fun and one never knows

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Sunday 11 November 07 07:57 GMT (UK)
Hi Annie    :)

No, I don't have the MORININI marriage cert (didn't think it important enough way back when we discovered Annie, and the (precious) funds got diverted to buying the NZ certs, bankruptcy records etc.) !

Yeah, there's something "odd" I feel about this Jane Elizabeth (the younger)   .... don't know what .... just can't put my finger on it ?       Must go back and re-visit some of that  earlier info on her.

Cheers
Lu

 
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Sunday 11 November 07 08:43 GMT (UK)
Cameron/Parkin extra info

Donald CAMERON snr died aged 34yrs 1875 reg 477

Donald Cameron jnr died 1897 Stawell reg 7005

Edith Parkin married Westgarth Charles Walker Muir 1909
He died 1944 aged 65yrs.Westgarth also went to 1st War World -mention to send medals c/- L Parkin
They had two sons
Alan Cameron Muir b 1913 Sth Melb
Archie Westgarth Muir b 1914 Sth Melb

William John Parkin -is he the Wm John Parkin who went to Boer War?
A William John Parkin married 1904 Ethel Annie Best

Charles Leslie Parkin died Sept 12 1973 at Castle Hill,Sydney wife name was Lillian -one son
Will PM Lucy death notice in paper.

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Sunday 11 November 07 09:01 GMT (UK)
Annie  SUPER STAR

.... that's wonderful  ....   MANY THANKS !

Regards
 LU             :)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Sunday 11 November 07 10:00 GMT (UK)
Hello  there 

I  have  found  an  interesting (sic)  marriage

Charles Leslie  Parkin  married Lillian  Caldwell  in  1920  Victoria  14167

Is  it  possible  he has  married  his  cousin?

My  death  index  has  packed  it  in  so  i  cannot check  deaths  to  see who  her parents were.

I  could  not  locate  any  other  Parkin  births  since  the Twins  in 1881  the  registration  numbers  are  9308 and  9309  and Charles  in 1893  I  have checked  SA no joy  there.

kind regards Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: trish251 on Sunday 11 November 07 10:10 GMT (UK)
Hi jenn

I am still very confused by this thread but here are the Lillian Parkin deaths that I have noted

Lillian Alice  parents Joseph Bedgood and Jane SMITH BRIG age 80 1958 6332
Lillian Gertrude parents John Brotchie and Esther SHELDRAKE COBU age 77 1958 ref 7132
Grace Lillian parents Davi Griffiths and Janet Mcturk GIBSOND CAMB age 84 1976 29329

Are any of these who you are looking for?

Trish
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Sunday 11 November 07 10:14 GMT (UK)
Hello  there Trisha

I  am  looking for  a  Lillian  father Caldwell

but  it is  possible  Charles Leslie Parkin may  have died first  and she remarried!,  if  you  can find  his death cool  not sure  without  looking  if  it has been  found  yet.

It  is a very  complicated  thread,  Trisha  do  you  know  how  many  pages  long  it can  get before a  new thread  has  to be started?

kind regards Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: trish251 on Sunday 11 November 07 10:25 GMT (UK)
I just read back a little Jenn, Annie has the death for Charles in Sydney - so Lillian probably died NSW as well  ???  - best I stop confusing things

Trish
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Sunday 11 November 07 11:01 GMT (UK)
Hi Ladies

... hope none of you have had your cocoa and are ready for bed ?

Just about to "spill the beans" on the Jane HEASMAN / Peter ANDERSON (Henderson) marriage !

Back in a minute !
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Raylen on Sunday 11 November 07 11:21 GMT (UK)
:o

"Sitting here waiting for the next exciting installment"

Raylen
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Sunday 11 November 07 11:37 GMT (UK)

Here is the 2nd marriage of Jane Wilkinson nee Heasman.Same problem with the maths again-not only with her age -she seems to have a problem counting children

Annie

Lucy my cocoa has gone cold
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Sunday 11 November 07 11:47 GMT (UK)
Hi ALL   :)

GRATEFUL thanks to RAYLEN who found this entry.

Marriage in the District of Fitzroy, Victoria ~  1869
[Indexed as "HENDERSON, Peter  -   # 4625]

-   Tuesday, 5 October 1869
-   at 174 Gertrude ? Street, Fitzroy
-   Peter HENDERSON *  [* this first entry of surname could either be ANDERSON or HENDERSON - elsewhere on record it is spelt as "Henderson".      Groom has signed X ~ his mark]!!
-    Bachelor  - Occupation:  Digger -  Age: 31
-    No previous issue
-    Born:  Norway
-    Parents:   Andrew HENDERSON, farmer
     - Maqua ?  or   Macyna ?  TORNELLA ?

-    Jane Elizabeth HEASMAN
-    Widow - death of former husband - 1867
-    Children:  Living - 7       Dead:  2
-    Age:   39      Occupation:   Hotelkeeper
-    Born:   London
-    Parents:   Joseph AYLMORE, Ships Captain
     -  Ann AYLMORE (nee REAVES ~ likely "REEVES")

Present and usual addresses (for both) - Queen Street, Melbourne.
Witnesses:   Jane MORTIMER ?
                     Francis or Frances* ~ his or her mark
                     CHACLEY  ... or could be "CHARLES"
[* Francis - mark on page - hard to tell if 'Francis or Frances (girl)" ?]
Marriage according to the rites of Victorian Free Church,
Nathanael KINSMAN, minister :
                                   ______________

[Interesting - hubby has signed with his mark - yet we have his signature - somewhere (oh ... perhaps it was after 1869?]
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Sunday 11 November 07 12:02 GMT (UK)
Hi Annie    :)

Thanks muchly for Wilkinson marriage.

Interesting eh ?      [Father:  William HEASMAN ~ Gentleman (oh really) !!]

Looks like Mum and daughter might have been in the PUB business ... both addresses "Queen Street" ?

Cheers   LU

[PS  Sorry 'bout ya cocoa Annie ... my brain had actually gone a bit numb going thru the process of getting the cert. details  ....  managed OK in the end ... just a bit taxing to have to "think" at this time of night (1.oo AM here) !]
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Raylen on Sunday 11 November 07 12:25 GMT (UK)
Jane's new husband William Thomas Harper didn't last long! :-\

Death
HARPER William Thomas born Birmingham
died 1871 in Victoria age 25 years
Father: Thomas    Mother Annie Stringa
Reg No: 9037

Raylen

***  Sorry - just found this was already known.
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Sunday 11 November 07 12:40 GMT (UK)
Hi Raylen     :)

You're a GEM !    Thanks for that.

Blimey  ....   I can barely keep pace with all the "dames" in this family !      Utterly woeful with their maths  ... wonder how they got on if they were in the pub / hotel business - bet they all knew "how many beans, make five" ?   

Again, that was a brilliant find of yours - the "HENDERSON" marriage ....  thanks again.

Regards
Lu
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Sunday 11 November 07 13:05 GMT (UK)
There's always a 'nice' connexion with this family!!

And more and more history lessons.

We've had the famous Political Parson, Rev J Dunmore LANG.
We've had the famous Flogging Parson, the Rev Samuel MARSDEN.
And now we have the famous Marrying Parson, the Rev Nathaniel KINSMAN!!
(Perhaps 'famous' should read 'notorious' for the above three gentlemen?).

KINSMAN married my Grandparents, AJ SULLIVAN & Ada TRIPPIT at Moor St Fitzroy, Vic according to the rites of the 'Victorian Free Church'.  Just to make a wee NZ connexion for the sake of this thread - Ada migrated from Sheffield to NZ with her parents at age 3, and her Pa (my Ggpa) is buried in Christchurch ...

I have a copy of an article from 'The Genealogist' September 1986 by Betty Donaldson.  To quote from an 1898 quote in that article:
"The 'Rev.' Nathaniel Kinsman, who has for many years been well known in Melbourne as the 'marrying parson' died on 24th ult.  With Mr. Kinsman the celebration of a marriage was purely a matter of business; the charges were regulated 'to suit the times' and the pockets of the parties, and all possible facilities were offered.
...
By the death of the 'Rev.' Nathaniel Kinsman, minister of the Victorian Free Church of England, there disappears one of the most singular figures of the generation.  To have been within an ace of ordination for the Church of England, to have afterwards founded a church of his own, and to have carried on simultaneously the businesses of parson and secondhand salesman - these are incidents which might occur in the life of any man.  But to have joined in more or less happy matrimonial bonds some 9800 couples, that is an achievement before which even the famous Gretna Green blacksmith might well hide his dimished head ..."


What a circus!

JAP
PS: Raylen, no need for apologies given the highways, byways, and diversions of this crazy thread - your HENDERSON/HEANNAN marriage find was an absolute corker.  If I recall correctly, William HARPER is in the IGI with, as I recall, mother STRINGER - but I fear we'll never stop if we explore the genealogy of the husbands. 
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Sunday 11 November 07 22:34 GMT (UK)
A  question? from  her second marriage

Quote
-    Jane Elizabeth HEASMAN
-    Widow - death of former husband - 1867
-    Children:  Living - 7       Dead:  2

now  there  are  only  7  children  have been  found so  far ,  add in George  thats  8  but  9......  interesting,

we also  "know"  that No.2. Ann Amelia  died,  so  who  is the  9th child.

Would  I  be right  in assuming  that the  9th  child  might  have been  a born  and  died  perhaps  in England  and  hasn't been found?  (never assume  I  know especially  this  mob of  poor mathematicians  she  just  might  have  miscalculated given  her adding up skills,  and  George  is  still alive  in 1867 so  it is not  him)

regards Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Sunday 11 November 07 22:48 GMT (UK)
G'morning Jenn    :)

.....  yes, I'm a bit puzzled about No. 2 "dead" child ?
Seems though that George d. 1870, did belong to Jane and William (rather than being the George BALLI child) ?

Annoying, her maths skills .... yes, might be another child who died in England, or perhaps there was one between Amelia (bapt. 1851) and the birth of George (c. 1865) ?
Wondering if there was a child born during their time in NSW ?

Regards
Lu
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Monday 12 November 07 02:10 GMT (UK)
Something odd seems to have happened to RC.  Last night (my time) I amended my post re the Rev Nathaniel Kinsman and I posted re Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE's parents.  But neither the amendments nor the post is here ...

Re Jane's parents: that's good that the marriage cert (ANDERSON/HEASMAN) confirms what we had for Jane's parents and siblings in Posts #42 & #44 back on Page 3.

To quote from page 3:
"As neither William nor Jane was born in Middlesex, might this be Jane:
Jane Elizth AYLMORE, parents Josiah and Ann, bap 5 Aug 1818, Saint Thomas, Portsmouth, Hampshire.
Josiah and Ann had (at least):
Jane Elizth. AYLMORE, bap 5 Aug 1818, St Thomas, Portsmouth
Amelia AYLMORE, bap 2 Sep 1821, St Mary's, Portsea, Hampshire
Thomas Reeves AYLMORE, bap 10 Feb 1823, St John's, Portsea"
The last one should have read George Reeves AYLMORE   :-[

Later addition (see Post #307): there's also Ann HELMORE (sic), parents Josiah HELMORE or AYLMORE & Ann, bap 23 Oct 1816, Holy Trinity, Gosport, Hampshire

And in Post #45 on Page 4, Lu found the marriage of a Joseph AYLMORE & an Ann REEVES, 1816, St Mary's Portsea.

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: sparrett on Monday 12 November 07 02:21 GMT (UK)
Hi Jap,
Apparently there was a major 'failure/breakdown ' at Rc from 1pm UK time.
It seems that about 6 hours of postings and data were lost.
Dear Trystan is upset

It is in the Common room.
Sue
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Monday 12 November 07 03:00 GMT (UK)
Re the number of children on the Jane Elizabeth HEASMAN/Peter ANDERSON marriage cert ...

First the 2 dead children.  William HEASMAN & Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE were married July 1836.  The first record of a child to them is the Jane Elizabeth HEASMAN birth Sep quarter 1838.  So there's time for there to have been an earlier unrecorded child (or even a pre-nuptial child) who died ...

Now the problem of the 7 living children and whether they include George (ca 1865-1870).

Are we to believe the 7 living?  Are we to believe that William HEASMAN died in 1867?  Or is that information just as unreliable as Jane's age (39 at the marriage in 1869 when it should have been 50)?

Perhaps 7 living is because Jane told Peter that 3yo George was her own child - which would have helped confirm a more youthful image (along with dropping Amelia's age a few years)?  And, having done that, Jane had to invent a death date for William which would make George respectably born within her previous marriage to William ...

Of course, that still doesn't help solve the birth of Elizabeth Ann in 1871 when Jane was ca 52 ...

On the other hand, let's assume that George really is a child of William & Jane, and that William really did die in 1867.  A couple of obvious problems are that we haven't found a birth for a George HEASMAN (should be 1865/6) nor any death for William HEASMAN (much less in 1867).

Perhaps the Sands & McDougall's (or another) directory will show whether a William HEASMAN was listed ...

Hmmmm ...

JAP
PS: Thank you for the explanation Sue - when I logged on, I went straight to this thread without looking at anything else!   I can well imagine how distraught Trystan must be - he does a fantastic job.
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Monday 12 November 07 03:14 GMT (UK)
It seems that a post from osprey was one of those lost.  osprey has very kindly PM-ed me the following fantastic information about the family of Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE in England  :D

QUOTE FROM OSPREY
"Looks like a possible?
1841 Richard St, Limehouse HO107/701/5 folio 11 pg 14
Ann Aylmore 40 independent 40 not born in county
Amelia 20 dressmaker not born in county
George Tyler 48 labourer born in county
Lucy 40 not born in county
this is only 2 enumeration districts away from the Heasmans at HO107/701/4 folio 5 pg 2

possible death reg  Ann Aylmore dec qtr 1850 Stepney vol 2 pg 341

possible marriage
Amelia Aylmore march qtr 1845 Kensington vol 3 pg 267 with Francis Abear on the same page
IGI batch M079037 25/2/1845 Francis Abear to Amelia Aylmore at St James Paddington

death reg
Francis Abear june qtr 1847 Marylebone vol 1 pg 203   

1851 census 44 Upper Gower St, Marylebone HO107/1494 folio 572 pg 17
Amelia Aber unm 29 house servant b. Hampshire, Portsea
in the household of John Crichton

marriage reg
Amelia Abear dec qtr 1851 St Pancras vol 1 pg 310 with William Henry Hawkins on the same page
IGI batch M047933 Amelia Abear or Aylmore m William Henry Hawkins 11/10/1851 at Old Church, St Pancras

1861 census 56 Whittlebury St, Pancras RG9/109 folio 53 pg 10
William H Hawkins head mar 35 saddler & harness maker b. Middx, Marylebone
Amelia wife 36 b. Hampshire, Southampton
Emily dau 10 scholar b. St Pancras
Thomas son 8 b. St Pancras
William son 3 b. St Pancras
Amelia dau 8 months b. St Pancras
Annie Abear servant unm 16 b. Paddington
plus an apprentice and a lodger

1871 they're in Walsall, Staffordshire RG10/2965 folio 81 pg 21 baby Amelia has become Elizabeth and there's a Lilly 9 born in Deptford.

Also spotted another sibling for Jane Elizabeth
Ann Aylmore bp 23/10/1816 Gosport dau of Josiah and Ann (alias Yelmore)
and a possible marriage
Anne Aylmore march qtr 1838 Poplar vol 2 pg 234, but no IGI entry to help with this one.
There's a possible burial for George Reeves Aylmore bp 1823 in Portsmouth in 1829".

Thank you very very much indeed osprey!

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Monday 12 November 07 07:37 GMT (UK)
Hi Everyone
 Re the children of Jane Heasman on the Anderson wedding cert:

Did you notice when Jane Wilkinson remarried she states she has two children living and one dead?Yet just a months earlier when her husband dies she has 3 living and 1 dead.A few months after her marriage when applying for Charles Wilkinson's estate she states she is supporting 5 children.
As her age on the marriage certificate is 25yrs when it is really 31yrs -maybe 11yr Rachel was being passed off as a daughter of Jane Heasman.
And maybe they have assumed Annie in NZ is dead?

Who knows-we need to find the death of Jane Anderson,providing of course that Mr Anderson stayed around.

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Monday 12 November 07 08:52 GMT (UK)
Dear Osprey      :)

THANK YOU so much for all that amazing information !
So appreciated.

Kind regards
Lu
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Monday 12 November 07 08:58 GMT (UK)

Oh my god!!!!!!!!!!
Should of got the MORININI first-have just downloaded it

Jane is with Mr Bransgrove!!!see bankrupt records

Will just save it and post soon

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Monday 12 November 07 09:17 GMT (UK)
Hi Annie,

The suspense is killing me  ::)

Re the number of children of Jane Elizabeth (HEASMAN later WILKINSON later HARPER reverted to WILKINSON) yes that's a good idea that she would hardly want to admit to William HARPER that she, passing herself off as 25 at their 1869 marriage, had an 11/12 yo daughter!

The 5 children she refers to in the estate application in 1870 I took to be her 'gilding the lily' and including the two "children" from Charles WILKINSON's 2nd marriage (Charles, who by 1870 would have been ca 21, and William, who would have been ca 20) as well as her own Rachel, Frances and Florence who, by 1870, would have been ca 13, 6, and 3.

And neither on Charles WILKINSON's 1868 dc nor on Jane's 1869 mc were the nameless babies who were b & d in NSW - a male in 1858 and a female in 1860 - mentioned.

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Monday 12 November 07 09:22 GMT (UK)

Hi
Attached the marriage of MORININI

Bransgrove would have to be Ebenzer Bransgrove surely.
Found him dying in Parramatta NSW 1868 aged 56yrs

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Monday 12 November 07 09:48 GMT (UK)
Annie     JAP

O.  M.  G.   !       :o       

Hang on .... I've just got to have a lie down !
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Monday 12 November 07 10:04 GMT (UK)
Annie,

You are wonderful downloading all these certificates  :o

And what a find!

If this story were written as fiction, nobody would believe it  ::)

So Annie HEASMAN, at her 1862 marriage to Alexander MORININI in Vic gives her father as William HEASMAN dead, and her mother as Jane HEASMAN now BRANSGROVE m.s. AILMORE!

Can anyone find a marriage for Jane & BRANSGROVE - I can't?

For anyone who wants to refresh their memories of William HEASMAN's 1855 insolvency; and the removal of goods a couple of days before the insolvency (March 1855) and storing of them in Paddington in a house occupied by Ebenezer BRANSGROVE & Frederick Alfred POOLE, see Annie's wonderful posts at #118 and #119 on Page 8, #122 on Page 9, and #166 on Page 12.

POOLE & BRANSGROVE were arrested, and the police were looking for HEASMAN.  P & B were found guilty on 12 June and were in gaol awaiting sentence; then, on 21 July the court ruled that the verdict must be quashed and P & B were discharged ...

Hey, I remember suggesting that Jane might have been in on the con - as how else could William have removed the gear without her noticing.  Hmmm ...

One's immediate thought is that Jane & Ebenezer might have married so that Jane wouldn't have to testify against him - but not only doesn't there seem to be a marriage but the time scale is far too short.

What a story!

Wow!

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Monday 12 November 07 10:06 GMT (UK)
Annie what a  truly  good  person  you  must be  to  do  these  downloads  at  your  own  expense ... as  did  JAP.  That is  utterly  amazing.  I  know that  you  do  these  things  for  others  having  had  this  first  hand with  your generosity.  Words fail  me.

now  another  OH MY GOD  can  be  heard  from  north queensland,  that woman  certainly  got about.  Never assume    however  what are the  odds,  cannot find any  sort of  marriage through  in  Vic  or nsw  for  her and Ebenezer bransgrove.  So  he might  have been  the  "husband"  who  died  in  1867  according  to  her  marriage to  poor Peter.

 I  reckon  if we ever  find  her death  the  headstone  may very well read

"  Never  let  the truth  get in  the way  of anything"

regards Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Monday 12 November 07 10:39 GMT (UK)
Well what a saga!

In 1855 when Ebenzer Bransgrove was tried one of the witnesses for the prisoners was Mrs J Eastman which I assume is Jane Heasman.I haven't been able to locate that actual transcripts of the trail.
Yet in 1856 Jane doesn't appear to be with Bransgrove when the children were admitted to the orphanage.
In 1859 when  the children lefth the orphanage they went to the sister Jane Wilkinson-why not the mother?is she already in Vic with Bransgrove
In 1862 we now know Jane is with Mr Bransgrove.
In 1862,1863 & 1865 three of the sisters all marry in the Daylesford district.Is Jane there with Bransgrove.
In 1869 she is back in Melbourne marrying Peter Anderson.
Both Jane the mother and Jane the daughter appear to be connected to a hotel perhaps in Queen Street.
As William appears to have done a bunk I don't think she ever married Bransgrove but would of still be young enough to have some children.
I did check the inquests for William Heasman but no sign-thought if he did suicide there would be a record.
Why is Ebenzer Bransgrove dying in NSW-did it not work out and he left-hence Jane going to Melbourne from Daylesford and getting work in a pub.
Really need to find her death.
Did you notice both Janes married 3 days apart?
Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Monday 12 November 07 10:54 GMT (UK)
Another  thing  I  noted  that seemed a  little  odd to  me was that on  the Death  certificate for wee George Heasman.  Peder Anderson  was  listed  as  friend! 

Wasn't he.... if I  have  been  listening carefully....  he was  his step-father.  He,  Peter  having  married Jane Hesaman matriach  by  then.

regards jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Monday 12 November 07 10:59 GMT (UK)
Jenn
You are right it is strange to put down a friend-maybe his English wasn't too good and didn't know the word for step father.

Can you check the Sands NSW for Bransgrove in the 1860s?

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Monday 12 November 07 11:02 GMT (UK)
will  do

jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Monday 12 November 07 11:10 GMT (UK)
In  1866 and 1867

there  is  listed  a  Mrs. Bransgrove...  note  no  initial....

at  The Great Britian hotel  367 George street, Sydney


there  is  no  Listing  from  1861  to  1867  for an  ebenezer Bransgrove.

regards Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Monday 12 November 07 13:27 GMT (UK)
Hi All,

Apart from the fact that this family appears unable to lie straight in bed, there are several things about which I wouldn't get hung up at all.

For instance, Norwegian Peder, the purported step-father of little George describing himself as "A Friend" (or, if little George was a BALLI, Peder would have been step-grandfather).  I have a Vic cert where the informant is the blood Grandmother (mother of the mother) of the baby who died - but is listed as "Friend"!!

As for William HEASMAN being described as a 'Gentleman' on one cert - on Vic certs I have, all that meant when it came to my lot was, I'm sad to say, Unemployed!

And as for fake statements about being married, and fake dates for real and non-existent marriages, and fake dates for deaths of previous husbands/'husbands' etc etc - in one family I've researched in Vic these were more usual than not.

Whether or not Jane was with Mr BRANSGROVE at the time of the 1856 Petition for Admission to the Orphan School we can't know; but you'd have to assume that she would not have told the Rev J Dunmore LANG that she was with someone when she was busily pleading that she'd supported them by her own efforts but was no longer able to do so due to infirmity.  And, having pleaded infirmity in 1856, how could she have admitted that she was suddenly able to care for them in 1859 - fewer questions would be asked were they to be released into the care of their sister.

Interesting that Mrs J EASTMAN was a witness for the defence - this presumably the same Jane who, writing the pathetic letter to the creditors, said that her husband had listened to the advice of evil men!

Incidentally, I guess that the HEASMAN/MORININI mc does not necessarily mean that Jane was with BRANSGROVE - it might just mean that she was going by the name BRANSGROVE ...

It would certainly be interesting to see whether any members of the families, and those connected to them, appear in the various Victorian/Melbourne directories ...

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: redmr2red on Tuesday 13 November 07 01:18 GMT (UK)
What's Happening??  Has Rootschat accepted sponsorship?

What are all these place names that are highlighted blue and double underlined doing on rootschat?  Can everyone see them or is it a virus on my computer.

Red
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Tuesday 13 November 07 01:50 GMT (UK)
Hello  there Red

no  it is  not  a  virus  it  is some  sort of  "adds"  how weird  is  that
check  out  this  topic

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,267750.0.html

damn  annoying but if  it  all helps trystan  then  we  have to get  used to  it.

regards Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Sleat on Tuesday 13 November 07 20:18 GMT (UK)
I checked the Sands & Kenny Melbourne 1857-1861 and the Sands & McDougall Melbourne 1865 for Bransgrove

There was

1859 Sands & Kenny
Bransgrove Ebenezer, 100 Latrobe St east

1865 Sands & McDougall
Bransgrove E Victoria-Parade East Collingwood

If someone can tell me other names to check for I'll give it a go.  :D
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Tuesday 13 November 07 21:58 GMT (UK)
Hello there,

Sleat welcome  to  this wonderfull  thread and well done on  the Sand and McDougall Directory.,  it certainly adds  interest to  the story doesn't it.

Now a  little  more  on  wee George Heasman

I  had contacted  the Melbourne cemetery  regarding  his  burial  but  was told  he  was not buried  there,  so  I  then  spoke to  them again  and  they sent  me  back  the  following information

"We checked our records again at Melbourne General Cemetery and have found the following entry.  We apologise as our system shows the deceased name was mispelt as GEORGE HEASTMAN

Please note that as this is a Public Burial we are unable to give you an exact location.  There is no commemorative plaque or headstone at the grave to mark it.  The date of service was 11/04/1870. "

So  now  does  that  mean  at  this  point  in  time  the  family  had  no  monies  to  bury  him? 
A  public burial  is  that a  paupers grave?
(I found  my  poor ggf Alf  Shoebirdge in  a  paupers grave at ballarat along with  16  other souls,  at  least he  had company!)

A twist to  the Heasman ... Heastman  says  Jenn reaching  for her index's   ;D

kind regard Jenn


Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Wednesday 14 November 07 01:08 GMT (UK)
There still seem to be gremlins around  :(  A post (unimportant) which I made last night my time has disappeared ...

Hello Sleat,
Welcome to this thread!
Some (uncommon) names are AYLMORE, BALLI, BRANSGROVE, HEASMAN, MORININI (any and all spellings - for instance, we've found HEASMAN under variants as different as HAISMAN, HEUSMAN, HAESMAN, HESIMAN, HEIZMAN, ISSMAN, EASTMAN, ESMOND and now HEASTMAN ...).

There are also some common names like ANDERSON, WILKINSON, etc - see the summaries on Page 19 of the thread!

Jenn,
I wonder just what the Melbourne Cemetery people meant by a "Public Burial".  My understanding (I'm open to correction) is that there would be a section of a cemetery which was Public/Common Ground - for people who could not afford to purchase a Private Grave plot of their own.  But they would still have to pay for the actual burial itself and the associated service.  Several unrelated persons would be likely to be buried in each Public Grave plot.  These might well include "paupers" i.e. people who had died with no means (and/or whose rells had no means) and whom the Board of Guardians therefore determined were to be buried at public expense.

I have a few in public graves - but I have no documentary proof of whether the burial was paid for by their rells or whether they were "paupers" (i.e. buried at public expense).

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Wednesday 14 November 07 01:29 GMT (UK)
Hi ALL      :)

Yes, those beastly gremlins  ... I too had a post "disappear" last night !

Thanks again "Sleat"  -  much appreciated  (have earlier PM'd you as I wasn't sure if those "gremlins" might prevent me posting direct to board) !   Hopefully we're "back in business here, now ?

And that's great, JAP has expanded on our names search including all the weird and wonderful spellings we've encountered.

I'll re-post my "lost" info (re:  BALLI), shortly.

Lu

Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Wednesday 14 November 07 02:09 GMT (UK)
Re:    BALLI  (surname) appearing on passenger lists VIC to NZ - 1862 and 1868 :     [Refer to post # 216 on  page 15 of this thread] :

I did a search of PROV fiche records (Passengers leaving VIC) ~ they give a little more info than what can be found in the online version (also "online" seems to have rather a lot of "spelling" errors in surnames)?

BALLI :   G.     age - 31     Country:  Italy
status - single      (in)  fore cabin
"City of Hobart" departed Melbourne 6 December 1862 destined for Port Chalmers (Dunedin, NZ) :

BALLI :   Mrs  (23)   (the surname given in "online record)

The fiche record shows the name to be "BALK" !

BALK:   Mrs (23)  Passenger # 2668
status:  M (married?)   Country:  Scotland
(in)   Steerage
Vessel "Auckland"  to Hokitika (West Coast, NZ) departed Melbourne 6 June 1868 :
                                  ____________
Lu

Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: aumarire on Wednesday 14 November 07 03:25 GMT (UK)
Hi again,
With regard to the below message on page 19, which I will cut and paste here.

William Richard, bap 16 Sept 1846 St James CE, Melbourne Vic #14885 (birth date not shown)
Note: William's age is 9 on petition for admission to Orphan School, NSW, Oct 1859.
     *William R HEASMAN m Harrul (i.e. Harriet) J NEWBY Wellington NSW 511/1878
     *William R HEASMAN d Wellington NSW  6810/1897 parents unknown.
Note: William (as HEASEMAN) & Harriet (as COURT - she remarried, d 1918) bur in Wellington General Cem NSW; impressive gravestone photo on Australian Cemeteries site - it has William's age as 56.
Note: Is this the son of William HEASMAN & Jane AYLMORE?

I have looked at the photo on the Australian Cemeteries list, and as said above, it does give this mans age as 56, which would equate with a different birth date from OUR William, and also his surname is written on the headstone as  Heaseman. Having said all of that, I realise that the name is written  in so many different ways, I can quite believe this to be our man, although I do ask ( here is hoping this hasn't been dealt with in previous pages, sorry if it has been)  but my question is, has anyone got the marriage cert of this guy, to verify the marriage to Miss Newby.
Note that he died in Wellington, NSW so I will eat my hat if this little snippet that I found is not our guy. I realise that above it is written that the folio number of his death is 6810/1897  and I have checked the NSW index's, and that is correct, so I assume seeing his gravestone states he died May 1896, that perhaps there was an inquest into his death and the death may not have been registered until the following year?. Also, it is interesting that while the headstone spells his name as Heaseman, the index spell it is Heasman.
Now, here is the snippet that I located
"""Taken from the Queenslander, Brisbane, Saturday, May 22, 1897
INTERCOLONIAL NEWS
NEW SOUTH WALES Sydney, May 11 {p. 1118}
At the Wellington show a rider of a horse in the hunting contest was thrown and stunned. A friend of the rider, named HEASEMAN, on seeing the accident sustained a shock, from which he died in a few minutes.

What do you make of all of this.
Aumarire
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Wednesday 14 November 07 04:40 GMT (UK)
Hello  there Aumarire

What a  good  find  that  newspaper article  is  imagine  dying  of shock  at a  hunting accident,  I  do  wonder who  his friend was.


As  yet  to  my  knowledge no  one has  brought the marriage  or death Certificate  for William  R Heasman/ Heaseman.  The  NSW on line BDM  does  not  have an  immediate download facility  one  has  two  wait  up  to  two  to  three weeks  on  occasion  for  the certificate  to arrive  and  the costs  is around  $25.00.  A  transcription  agent (  IE Laurie Turtle) is  less expensive  around $15.00  and  he  usually  sends an email attachment  in  around  2 to  3  days.

kind  Regards Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Wednesday 14 November 07 04:51 GMT (UK)
Hi Aumarire,

Yes, more gremlins - and the Santa ad seems to be slowing things down a lot  :(

I'd noticed that mention at:
http://addison.homedns.org/transcriptions/bev_edmonds/transcripts/page4.html
of the friend named HEASEMAN dying of shock - I probably should have mentioned it; I assumed it was 'our' William but didn't think it added anything to our quest  :(  I hadn't thought of Inquests ...  Though they might have dispensed with an inquest given that the death happened at such a public occasion i.e. the Wellington Show (especially if this William had - say - a history of heart disease).   Annie (post #316) did say she'd checked out the inquests for William HEASMAN (snr) and found nothing ...

Inquests usually followed rapidly after a death.  Given that the newspaper snippet refers to news from May 1897, and given that the death was registered in 1897, I'd assumed that the gravestone was wrong - especially as it was possibly(?) erected years later after Harriet's death in 1918.

I probably mentioned elsewhere that there's a Henry HEASEMAN who d Wellington aged 76 in 1858.  He's buried in the Wellington Pioneer Cemetery.  He's also mentioned in a Maitland News Index at:
http://ceinternet.com.au/~rgow/mm46ax.html

Yes, I guess the 1878 marriage cert of William R HEASMAN to Harrul (sic) J NEWBY in Wellington would solve this puzzle.

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Wednesday 14 November 07 05:23 GMT (UK)
AS  JAP  says  the  marriage certificate  would  be the  best  bet to  purchase  given  the  fact  the  he  Wiliam  would  have filled  in  the  details,  but some  of  the early  NSW marriage  certificates  do  not carry  as  much  information  as  one  would  hope  for.  I  know I  purchased  one from  1888  only to  find  the  parents details  etc  were  not  shown.  I  had  to track  down  the church  and  lucky  they still  had  all  the relevant  files.

What  I  do  find  interesting is  the  headstone,  who  did  erect  as  cannot  find  any  children  to  this couple.

Jenn

Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Wednesday 14 November 07 06:38 GMT (UK)
Hi Jenn,

I'll try another of my scenarios  ::)

People (especially those who inherited under a Will  :D ) were often quite practical when it came to expense connected with purchase of grave plots.

Perhaps (or perhaps not) James COURT who m Harriet J HEASMAN in 1905 in Wellington, NSW (Harriet assumed to be the widow of William R; she d 1918, Wellington as Harriett J COURT, parents Edward K & Rebecca) was the "friend" who was 'responsible' for William's passing in 1897.

Regardless ...

If James pre-deceased Harriet, perhaps she - before she passed away - left instructions that she was to be buried with William (especially if she owned that grave and there was room for her), and instructions (and provision) for the headstone.

There's a James COURT age 76 d Wellington in 1916 (he might already have owned a grave in Wellington or elsewhere where he would be buried)

On the other hand, perhaps James outlived Harriet and had the headstone erected as a memorial to them both.

I wonder whether any of them left Wills ... 

JAP
PS: A James L COURT was buried at Spicers Ck Cemetery (between Wellington & Gulgong), 2 Aug 1916, age 78 (his death registered at Wellington).  There's a photo of his headstone.
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Wednesday 14 November 07 08:19 GMT (UK)
Hi again Sleat,

Here are some addresses for possible lookups (for any of the names).

1841-1851 (at least) the HEASMAN family was in Melbourne; William HEASMAN a Carpenter.

1862 - Annie HEASMAN m Alexander MORININI.  Both resident Hepburn; marriage in Castlemaine (post #312).

1865 - Rachel HEASMAN m Donald CAMERON.  Both resident, and married in, Daylesford (post #271).

1868 Dec - Charles WILKINSON (husband of Jane Elizabeth HEASMAN) dies Fitzroy St, St Kilda (post #177)

1869 2 Oct - marriage of Jane Elizabeth (HEASMAN) WILKINSON to William Thomas HARPER at Registrar's Office, Fitzroy by Registrar Mortimer; address of both is 93 Queen St Melbourne (post #296).

1869 5 Oct - marriage of Jane Elizabeth snr (HEASMAN - HEANNAN?) to Peter ANDERSON (HENDERSON?) at 174 Gertrude St Fitzroy by 'Rev' Nathaniel KINSMAN; address of both is Queen St Melbourne (post #297).

1870 9 Apr - death of wee George 'HEASMAN'; address is 45 Clarendon St, Emerald Hill (i.e. South Melbourne); see post #181.

1871 20 Sep - marriage of Amelia HEASMAN & James BRADLEY.  Married at Registrar's Office, 174 Gertrude St Fitzroy by Registrar Mortimer.  Both resident Fitzroy (post #236).

JAP
PS: To all: It's occurred to me that the Castlemaine Historical Society might have information about this family - they do have some wondrous records ...
My children's Gggma married (her second plus one not formalized - she'd had 12 children) a former convict (his fourth marriage - and he'd had 14 children) in Castlemaine in 1889.  The CHS found, for another descendant, a lovely story.  The ex-con was apparently a hard hard man.  But the CHS found the following contemporary report about his fourth marriage: 'However the mills of God grind slowly, we are told, and some years after the death of his wife he married a widow from the "auld sod" and the neighbours heard his agonised cry of "for God's sake someone come and take this woman away, she's killing me ".'
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Wednesday 14 November 07 12:00 GMT (UK)
Adding  in  to  the saga  on  William  R  Heasman side

his  wife by  her death inscriptions on  the headstone was  born  1853c and  by  her death details  on the NSW  on line bdms

here is  her birth

Harriet Jane NEWBY born 1854 Prah, Victoria  reg n 2162

father Edward Newby  mother Rebecca Richards.

now  by  the indexs  I  think  that  Edward  died  in 1854 reg no 5541 aged 30 born in Norfolk parents unkown   and  Rebecca remarried an Edward Bishop  in 1858 reg no 1266

This is  only an assumption  on  my  part because there was  no  other  births  in victoria  to  this  couple,  however  there  may be in  nsw  will  have to  check,  also  checking where and when  they came from

regards Jenn

Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Wednesday 14 November 07 12:07 GMT (UK)
The family  arrived  in Victoria  in  1852  onboard  "the Windermere"
Edwin Newby aged 28
Rebecca         aged 24
Edward          aged 7
George           aged 5
Frederick        aged 3
Thomas          aged 1

Edwin's aged  ties  in with Edward Brough newby's death  in  1854

regards Jenn

Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Wednesday 14 November 07 12:37 GMT (UK)
That's good that Harriet was born in Vic!

Given the peregrinations of the HEASMANs, that's another plus that the William R HEASMAN/Harriet J NEWBY 1878 marriage is 'our' William (and their deaths in Wellington).

I guess that Edward/Edwin K could easily be a mis-transcription for Edward B.

What a shame that there don't seem to be children to William & Harriet ...

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Thursday 15 November 07 10:08 GMT (UK)
Hi

Has anyone found James Bradley's family from his 1st marriage?
I found the death of a James Bradley in Sydney in 1899-father's name listed as Job.
Wonder if they moved to Sydney after their marriage-still no sign of Amelia.

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Friday 16 November 07 12:06 GMT (UK)
Hi Lucy

O .M G.
You won't believe this the penny has just dropped!!
Was your Rachel Riching daughter of Thomas Riching -born
Annie Lillian Rachel Riching.If she married Edward (Ted)Baker in 1920 we are related by marriage.Ted was my grandmother's cousin!!!!

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Friday 16 November 07 20:17 GMT (UK)
Won't this  be totally  awesome  if  it  turns  out  be  a  relationship,

six degrees  of  separation  and all  that  ????


regards Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Friday 16 November 07 21:54 GMT (UK)
Hi

Yes this is the family of my grandmother's cousin Ted.Have been doing through my papers and they did live at the address Annie Morinini died at.Which means my grandmother would of known or met Annie Morinini as she was very close to her cousin Ted.
I do have a couple of photos of which will be Annie Mornini's great grandchildren and great great grandchildren.
Who would of believed it!!
Going on the hunt today for a bit of information on Mr Bransgrove.
Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Sleat on Saturday 17 November 07 00:03 GMT (UK)
I checked my directories for all the names I could and the only one I found is

1865 Eastman Mrs, Church St Richmond 

 :(
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Saturday 17 November 07 05:58 GMT (UK)
Hi Everyone,

I looked today at the will of Harriett Jane Court wife of William Heasman jnr.
It would appear that there were no children of this marriage.She leaves things for sisters Elizabeth Coupland and Sarah McLeod(or Hart)brothers Thomas Newby and  Frederick Newby plus a Conrad Gardoll.She also states
"I direct my executors and trustees to erect a Headstone over the graves of myself and that of my 1st husband William Heasman in the Methodist portion of Wellington Cemetery at a cost of not less than £40.

So that explains that little mystery.Have been on the hunt for our Mr Bransgrove -finally found him which will be in my next post.
Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Saturday 17 November 07 06:14 GMT (UK)
Here is another interesting little snippet I found.
Letter from Charles Wilkinson

Melbourne
19th Oct 1865
The Honorable Charles Cowper Esq
Sir
Understanding that a doubt exists as to my claim to a pension and that it is to be brought before the House for consideration,which appears strange after being legally granted to me.I beg to say that I have served the Government faithfully for 28years and received a very high Testimonial from the Treasury on retiring and my duties during that time were very responsible the whole of the Revenue passing through my hands.I am sorry to state that I am solely depending upon my pension to support my wife and family and should I be deprived of it God only knows what I shall do.Trusting that you will kindly support my claim when it is brought forward and pardon the liberty I have thus taken.
I have the honor to be.
Sir Your Most Obt Servant
Chas Wilkinson
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Saturday 17 November 07 06:28 GMT (UK)
Annie,

You find the most fascinating information.

I am so very very glad that these people are connected - though distantly - to your own lot!

Poor Charles WILKINSON - sounds like he was very deserving.  Nothing's changed, eh - the deserving miss out and the undeserving ...

I have posited some scenarios on this thread - not always appreciated, I fear. ;D  But some have turned out, I think, to be spot on.  Including, now, this one posted a few days back on 14 Nov:
Quote from: JAP
If James pre-deceased Harriet, perhaps she - before she passed away - left instructions that she was to be buried with William (especially if she owned that grave and there was room for her), and instructions (and provision) for the headstone.

Hmmmm!

All the very best to all,

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Saturday 17 November 07 06:49 GMT (UK)
"
Quote
I direct my executors and trustees to erect a Headstone over the graves of myself and that of my 1st husband William Heasman in the Methodist portion of Wellington Cemetery at a cost of not less than £40.


The  mind  boggles  as  to  what sort  of  hubby  James Court was!!!!

Did  he  predecease  her do  you  think  Annie  does  the  will elude to  this  fact?

regards Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Saturday 17 November 07 06:50 GMT (UK)
JAP

Don't knock the scenarios-they have all helped us to think outside the square-which is why we have got as far as we have on this family.

Does anyone have access to the 1841,1851 census for London need a search for Ebenzer Bransgrove.The one thing I don't have is his age.
States he arrived on the "City of Sydney"in 1855.
I think the year is wrong as he would of got himself into mischief within weeks of landing.

Have managed to find this on the ship

The SS City of Sydney was built in 1853 by Smith and Rodger (perhaps Roger) in Glasgow, Scotland. She was a single screw steamship of 735 tons, almost 208 feet long and exactly 27 feet wide. The new vessel was also barque rigged, with three masts. The ship was a cargo/passenger liner built for the Australasian Steam Navigation Company Ltd. This was the first screw steamship built for the companyThe new vessel sailed to Sydney, Australia under the command of Captain R.T. Moodie. The trip took 74 days. The ship was intended for use on the passenger/cargo service between Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane and New Zealand

Annie

Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Saturday 17 November 07 06:52 GMT (UK)
Sorry Jenn

Should of mentioned it -Harriett Court states she is a widow when the will was made out on the 15th March 1918

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Saturday 17 November 07 06:56 GMT (UK)
Annie,

I reckon James COURT is very likely the lad (see my Post #333) buried at Spicers Creek (between Wellington and Gulgong) in 1916?

And, as I think I said earlier, people weren't overly sentimental about where they would live out their eternal days.  Second husband James's grave might have been not of the calibre that Harriet wanted - or perhaps no extra space, or not where she had lived for many years, or not where she wanted to lie, etc etc.  Whereas William's grave might have had room, she might have paid for it, it might have been where she lived, and it might have been in the classy part of the cemetery (don't knock it - I recall my late in-laws taking us to see the plot they'd bought - best view in the cemetery they said - hmmm, thought I - this will really matter to them?).

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Saturday 17 November 07 06:59 GMT (UK)
 That  might explain  it  then  perhaps  when  William  died  there  was  no  monies for headstone,  but after James Court died  she  may  have  had a wee bit more.
So  did she  have  a large   estate?  so  no  children  to  this Heasman  line  then.  So  here  end-th  the  direct Heasman  line,  what a  shame  we  won't find a  living  relation,  damn  but  who  knows  there  is  allways  illegitimate  children

regards Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Saturday 17 November 07 07:11 GMT (UK)
...  So  here  end-th  the  direct Heasman  line,  what a  shame  we  won't find a  living  relation,  damn  but  who  knows  there  is  allways  illegitimate  children
regards Jenn

So it seems given that William R was, it seems, the only son of William HEASMAN & Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE.  A pity!  But who knows what other twists and turns this saga might take ...

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Saturday 17 November 07 07:21 GMT (UK)
 Harriett's estate was worth £400.6.9 including a house.
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Saturday 17 November 07 07:57 GMT (UK)
This was filed under the name Mrs Wilkinson so I took a chance and it was the right family.It  paints a different picture from the original letter that Dunmore Lang wrote requesting the children go into the orphanage.
Sydney
30 March 1859
The Honourable Colonial Secretary
 Sir
I have the honour to request that the requisite authority may be given to enable Mrs Wilkinson of Cleveland Street,Redfern to receive from the Superintendant of the Female Orphan School,Parramatta,the children of Mrs Heasman ,a widow formerly of Woolloomoolloo now of Melbourne.The children I refer to were admitted into the Orphan School on my appplication as their mother had to go to Melbourne & had no means of maintaining her children during her absence.She now expects to return to Sydney very shortly & is desirious that her eldest daughter,their sister Mrs Wilkinson ,a respectable married woman who is  both & willing to receive &maintain them in the meantime should  have them delivered over unto her hands.I am ascertained personally that Mrs Wilkinson is in all respect fit & proper person to be entrusted with the care of the children
I have the honour Sir
Your most Obidient Servant
John Dunmore Lang
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Saturday 17 November 07 07:57 GMT (UK)
              ~     T H A T 'S       I N C R E D I  B L E    ~

Absolutely TRUE ... Annie's Grandmother's cousin TED
(Edward John BAKER) did marry Rachel (daughter of Thomas RICHINGS junior) - 1920 :

[WOW !    What next ? ]
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Raylen on Saturday 17 November 07 07:59 GMT (UK)
Hello Annie,

I just had a quick look for Ebenezer Bransgrove on 1841 and 1851 census
and I can't find him ???.

I'm not alway good finding these things, any clues to help me see if I can spot him?

Raylen

The only thing I found on IGI records was a birth for Ebenezer Bransgrove 23/4/1827 at
Dr Williams Library, London, London, England.  Seems to be the wrong year for his age to
be 56 when he died in 1868 - but with this family----------who knows!
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Saturday 17 November 07 08:00 GMT (UK)
Dear SLEAT     :)

Very many thanks for checking out the directories - much appreciated.

Lu
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Saturday 17 November 07 08:40 GMT (UK)
Hi Annie et al,

Personally, I'd be very doubtful about anything this family says  ::)

So, Jane Elizabeth (AYLMORE) HEASMAN had had to go to Melbourne!  Oh yeah!  And why!

What a lot they are!

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Saturday 17 November 07 09:17 GMT (UK)
More BRILLIANT finds by Annie !     :)

Thank you so much.

William Richard HEASMAN and Harriet :    I found a researcher of Harriet's NEWBY family (with a link to Harriets' mother Rebecca RICHARDS).  The message seeking info was posted in 2006   ... have shot an email off ... but no reply to date.   [Likewise to someone in AUS researching BALLI name ...  again, no response]  Grrr !  Mmmm .. always worth a try ?

Hey  ... JAP ... WE LOVE your scenarios !   Keep 'em coming please !      :)

Lu   
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Saturday 17 November 07 10:26 GMT (UK)
Hi Annie et al,

Personally, I'd be very doubtful about anything this family says  ::)

So, Jane Elizabeth (AYLMORE) HEASMAN had had to go to Melbourne!  Oh yeah!  And why!

What a lot they are!

JAP

Refering to Sleats  Reply #324
1859 Sands & Kenny
Bransgrove Ebenezer, 100 Latrobe St east

1865 Sands & McDougall
Bransgrove E Victoria-Parade East Collingwood

I think this might of been the reason she went to Melbourne.Certainly nothing to do with being infirm as in the 1st letter.Wonder what happened to William and Amelia as they were refused entry into the orphanage.
Or was she going to Melbourne looking for William Heasman?
Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Saturday 17 November 07 10:44 GMT (UK)
The Ebenzer Bransgrove Saga

Darlinghurst Gaol Entrance Book
Ebenzer Bransgrove
Arrived "City of Sydney"1855-free,native of London
religion: Protestant
Occup Clerk
Admitted 15 March 1855
Trail SCC
Discharge 21 July 1855 Imprisonment quashed.
Same dates apply for Mr Poole except he was admitted 16 March 1855-occup Auctioneer

NEXT EVENT
NSW Police Gazette 1 May 1867
Benjamin Bransgrove charged with stealing a prayer book (recovered) from the Wesleyan Chapel,York St has been arrested by Jas Read Metro District Police,sentenced 6 months Imprisonment in Darlinghurst.
However when I went to the Darlinghurst Gaol records
April 23 1867
Ebenzer Bransgrove committed by D C Scott 23 April ,where CPC(central police court)stealing.Sentence 6 months -note transferred 9 May to Parramatta Asylum.

Parramatta Asylum Records
Criminal Lunatic
Ebenzer Bransgrove
Admitted 9 May 1867 from Darlinghurst Gaol
Transferred to common division  7 Nov 1867.
Died 6 Nov 1868 at 11.45a.m

No case papers for Parramatta for this time period.
Will try Court of Petty Session records next time.

What do we make of this??
Annie


Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: troods on Tuesday 20 November 07 09:25 GMT (UK)
what a fascinating thread

I have amongst my lot a Phillis/Philadelphia Heasman/Haseman/Neasman who was sent out to Oz approx 1816 on-board the convict ship 'MaryAnn 1'.
It seems Phillis was abit of a roughie and was sent to Tassie not long after.

I wish I could connect her to this particular Heasman family as wow what a wealth of info this thread is, however alas I can't.

My Phillis was born in Sussex around 1798 and was convicted at the Old Bailey in 1815 for stealing lace etc.
She eventually married a fellow convict in Tassie and when he died she married a muchhhhh younger man and moved to Victoria where I think she died.

She definitely led a very eventful life.

Congrats peeps on a great thread and keep it coming.

Troods
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Tuesday 20 November 07 20:53 GMT (UK)
Hi

Here is Walter Wilkinson's death cert

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Wednesday 21 November 07 10:27 GMT (UK)
Hi Troods     :)

Thanks for that !    Sorry we haven't been able to help with anything for your "Philadelphia"  ...  but hang in there, you never know  ... this thread is all about the "unexpected"!

["Philly" qualifies as one of ours anyway ... a "HEASMAN" and "COLOURFUL" ] !

Cheers
Lu
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Wednesday 21 November 07 10:34 GMT (UK)
Dear Annie     :)

Many thanks for Walter's death cert.

Oh, that poor little mite   ...  I see Aunt Rachel was present, wonder if she was also acting as his caregiver ?

Lu
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Wednesday 21 November 07 10:57 GMT (UK)
Great work Annie  !      Thanks.     :)

MORE terrific info !    Ebenzer Bransgrove  =  "Bad Egg"  !

Do we reckon that Jane (Aylmore) HEASMAN "may" just have had a steadying influence on this "turkey" at some stage ?
There's a few years between crimes !

Wonder what he got up to, whilst residing in VIC ?    ::)

Lu 

Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Wednesday 21 November 07 13:20 GMT (UK)
Hi All,

I am valiantly trying to keep my Page 19 summaries up to date (they help me, at least, to keep track of this incredible family).

So, earlier today, I did add Ebenezer's tragic fate.  And poor little Walter's dc with young Aunt Rachel as informant.

Both so very kindly supplied by Annie.

Hey Lu - what about another of my scenarios?

I hate to suggest this but perhaps it was Jane who was the naughty one and the influence which led Ebenezer astray initially ... ;D  And perhaps she was the reason why he returned to Sydney (from Melbourne where he had presumably been with Jane).  And note that what he stole was a prayer book!  OK, perhaps he'd left the UK for Aus only because he had mental problems.  But, on the other hand, perhaps they developed after he arrived and because of his experiences? 

Perhaps Jane was even the 'bad egg' who led William HEASMAN astray  :o

Surely not :P
But remember that Annie said that Jane was a witness for the defence at the trial.

I mean, it couldn't have been - could it? - that Ebenezer docked at Woolloomooloo and booked into the Palmer St pub just at the wrong time?  And immediately (barely with time to catch his breath) and unintentionally, got caught up in the plot by one or both of William & Jane to get their gear out of the pub before the bailiffs arrived?  Who knows, perhaps he felt sorry for them.  Or perhaps he quickly took a shine to Jane.  Or perhaps William/Jane promised to waive his board & lodgings if he helped.  Or ...

I think that you probably can't have it both ways; one or other or both of the forebears - Walter and/or Jane - must have been a bit suss ...  ;)

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: aumarire on Thursday 22 November 07 04:28 GMT (UK)
Hi again,
Have been crazy busy, so while I have been ''watching' and having a little laugh at these relatives of ours, ( sorry great great great Grandma!!) I have not been participating at all. Now I have today and tomorrow free ( yeah!!!!) I thought I would take another look and think about things. Now, I had thought i would e-mail Laurie Turtle, a transcription agent, who  apparently takes just a few days to receive a reply from, and order a full transcription of the marriage of William Richard Heasman to Newby, in Wellington, NSW. Before I go and do that, I thought it prudent to check as to whether someone else has done this in the last few days, as I donlt want to double up on these certs.
So if any of you have ordered or have the cert. can you let me know please. If I hear nothing, I will order it tomorrow morning ( New Zealand time). My reason for ordering the cert is really just to verify that in fact this marriage is 'our' William Richard Heasman, and to see what is on the marriage cert. As it appears that when he died his parents names are not included in the  certificate, it is best to get the marriage and see what that says.
Bye for now.
Aumarire
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: trish251 on Thursday 22 November 07 05:42 GMT (UK)
Laurie Turtle, a transcription agent, who  apparently takes just a few days to receive a reply from,


I find Laurie very quick - unless he is away overseas - but as far as I know he got back from a trip late October & hasn't taken off again  ;D 

Trish
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Monday 26 November 07 09:49 GMT (UK)
Hello Everyone

I have just looked for some information on Eliza Cameron who was Rachel Heasman - Cameron-Parkin's dau.
Eliza Cameron married Archibald Hume 1895
children:
Archibald Thomas Hume born 1896
Robert Stanley Hume born 1899
David Aylmore Hume born 1902
Norman Andrew Hume born 1907

Note the Aylmore name used again.
Lucy
The good news is if you go into Rootsweb and do search for Archibald Hume you will find someone is doing this family

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Monday 26 November 07 12:23 GMT (UK)
Wonderful Annie !   Thanks so much    :)

I'm off to Rootsweb !

Lu
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Monday 26 November 07 12:54 GMT (UK)
Going back to the Page 19 summaries:
  "*Eliza CAMERON 1868; HUME Eliza, father Cameron Donald, mother Rachel HEASMAN, died age 88 at COBU (probably Coburg) 1957 #249 - Eliza is buried at the Coburg Cemetery"

Annie, to add to this (might amend summaries tomorrow though it's getting a long way away from the principals):
*HUME Archibald, father Hume Robt, mother Margt GIBSON, d aged 80, S Melb, 1948 #4404
*HUME Archibald Thomas, father Archibald, mother Eliza Unknown (nee Eliza CAMERON, the daughter of 'our' Rachel HEASMAN), d aged 67, at Rese, Vic 1962 #25330
*HUME David Aylmore, father Archibald, mother Eliza (as above), d aged 80, at Fran, Vic 1982, #22119

And at Coburg Cemetery are father Archibald, mother Eliza and their little son Robert Stanley:
Coburg Cemetery PRESBYTERIAN: Compartment: P Grave No: 551.
HUME
Archibald, 10 May 1948 aged 80
Eliza 20 Dec 1956 aged 88
Robert Stanley 30 Aug 1904 aged 5
 
JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Monday 26 November 07 20:37 GMT (UK)
adding  in a couple of registration  numbers for reference

Norman Andrew Hume  born 1907  at South Melbourne  reg no 4657

married in Victoria 1923 reference no 12346 to Pauline Cook

David Aylmore Hume     born 1902 at Carlton reg no 16902

married in Victoria 1928 reference no 7369 to Irene Beryl Nelson

regards Jenn

Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: aumarire on Monday 26 November 07 21:09 GMT (UK)
Hi again,
Just to let you all know that I have applied via a transcription agent for the marriage of William R Heasman and /Newby marriage in NSW. Will let you know what transpires from that.

Just in case,, you never know,,, but if any of you come across a ''spare'' James Balli, please let me have him ha!!

The reason i say this is remember, Marion married a Giovanni Balli from Switzerland, and she then goes off to New Zealand, gives birth to a child named William Balli who later on becomes known as William Caldwell. ( after Marions supposed marriage to a Mr Caldwell)  Marion and Giovani had two previous children, one named George who I believe to be the George Heasman who is recorded as dead in 1870, and recorded as being the son of William and Jane ( his grandparents). However,, when Marion died in Melbourne in 1890, the children of her first marriage to Giovanni Balli were listed as being alive, that is James age 23 and William age 22. We know of course that the William is the one I mentioned above, that he becomes known as William Caldwell, but I still have never known or found out what become of James, and of course he may well have gone and married or died later on under the name of James Balli, James Caldwell, James Heasman, James,, well just about anything, if the name changes that occur in this family of ours is anything to go by.
So as I say,, if any of you have a spare James hanging around,,, do let me know please.
In the meantime, I will let you all know the outcome of the marriage of William R Heasman as soon as it arrives.
Aumarire
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Tuesday 27 November 07 12:14 GMT (UK)
Hello  there
been  looking at  the electorall  rolls

have ssome information

from 1903 to 1931
Rachel Parkin resided at the Boathouse Albert Park Lake Queens

her husband William Parkin  was  there as a boat builder 1903, 1914
their son
William Parkin  was residing ng there in 1903

son Charles Leslie Parkin  there in 1931 as a boat builder
so was
Lilliam May Parkin  home duties

unfortunately  the site  is  on overload at  the  moment so  will  have to  try tomorrow

kind regards Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Tuesday 27 November 07 20:24 GMT (UK)
Hi

Hopefully the electoral rolls might turn up a new clue,I cannot find any trace of Jane ,Peter Anderson ,Elizabeth Ann or Amelia and James Bradley after 1871.

What I do find interesting is that Jane's grandchildren when having their children start to use family names.
Eg Eliza Hume nee Cameron using the name Aylmore in her sons name.
When  Jane's children were marrying most of them were spelling it in different ways even their own maiden name of Heasman was written with so many spellings.
Yet two generations later the great grandchildren have the correct spelling etc.
You would have to think the  Granny Jane must of been close to her granchildren for them to name their children with her maiden name or even know it.

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: aumarire on Wednesday 28 November 07 06:19 GMT (UK)
Hi again,
Oh bother, oh darn, oh opps,, can't say that word,,, received the transcript of William Richard Heasman's marriage, and it tells us precisely  zilch, zero.
It gives his  name, occupation, and his residence, and the same for his bride. There are two witness's, but those names are unclear as well. I will attach the transcribed entry, so you can see for yourselves.
So this does not really show us at all that this is 'our' William Richard Heasman.
Aumarire
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Wednesday 28 November 07 07:19 GMT (UK)
Oh Aumarire,  That is appalling!  Something seems to be very strange about this.  I wonder whether Mr Turtle - who presumably has seen heaps of certificates - can offer any explanation as to why this certificate essentially has no information.  One would think that, at the very least, the parties would have had some idea about their ages and places of birth!

I wonder whether the Wellington Historical Society might have some suggestions/resources for finding something else - anything - about William & Harriet.

What a shame!

Perhaps there might be something in the local newspapers - notices, obituaries - re the deaths of William & Harriet.

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: trish251 on Wednesday 28 November 07 07:37 GMT (UK)
Oh Aumarire,  That is appalling!  Something seems to be very strange about this.  I wonder whether Mr Turtle - who presumably has seen heaps of certificates - can offer any explanation as to why this certificate essentially has no information.  One would think that, at the very least, the parties would have had some idea about their ages and places of birth!

JAP

Apparently many of the NSW certs are similar until the early 1900s. I have an 1873 marriage record which gives much the same - I did score the name of the father of the bride because he gave permission for the marriage. (I do have an earlier one where even that was missing, despite the bride being 16 years old)

I believe from some other posts that you may be able to find the church records, which may have additional information.

From

http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/celebrate/civil.html

In the early years of civil registration most events were registered following verbal advice from the informant. The widespread use of notification forms did not begin until after World War One in 1918.

Trish

Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Wednesday 28 November 07 08:19 GMT (UK)
Hello  there

Yes  Trisha  I  have  the  same experience  with my ggparents  marriage  in 1888 at Coota  nothing  much  on  it  but  it did  have  the church  they were  married  in  and  I  was  lucky  enough  to  contact  the  Catholic Centre in Coota  and  they  had  the  original records,  I  was able  to  get  their  parents  names  and the bride and grooms occupation.   Hopefully  if  I  ever  get down  that way  I  shall  be able  to site  the  orginal  documentation.

My  marriage certificates after  the first World War  have all  the details  filled  in!

kind  regards Jenn  (  very  tropically  wet....  lovely stuff  RAIN  all  83mls of  it  last  night)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Wednesday 28 November 07 08:53 GMT (UK)
Sorry, I didn't know that!

I've obviously been spoiled by all those lovely Victorian certificates for my lot.

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: trish251 on Wednesday 28 November 07 09:10 GMT (UK)
Sorry, I didn't know that!

I've obviously been spoiled by all those lovely Victorian certificates for my lot.

JAP

Victoria and Queensland seem to be complete from the start of civil registration - most useful  :)

Trish
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Sunday 02 December 07 08:03 GMT (UK)
Hi ALL     

Thanks for all the recent new information, for your thoughts / scenarios, etc.     Great work - much appreciated  :)

LOTS going on behind the scenes too  ... checking further for clues on Annie MORININI (HEASMAN) and Clan RICHINGS.

AND ... at last ... now have the birth registration details for Ivy Elizabeth COATES (my "grandmother" ... the daughter of Lily RICHINGS (COATES) ... found registered under the name of "RICHARDS" !

Ivy Elizabeth RICHARDS - born 9 August 1899 - at St. Asaph Street, Christchurch, NZ .
Mother:   Lily RICHARDS aged 25, born Blenheim
Father:    NOT RECORDED !
First Informant :   Lily RICHARDS, mother
Second Informant:   NOT RECORDED !
                                ___________

Possibly the child of Francis COATES ?   (Lily and Francis married 1901 when Ivy was 1 yr 8 months old - perhaps Ivy takes the surname COATES due to the Legitimation Act ?) :
                                   _________

MORE work done on James RICHINGS -  the mysterious "nephew" of Thomas RICHINGS (Thomas named as "uncle and next of kin" on James's NZ Army record).

Our very talented "annecaroline" came up trumps by finding James buried at Purewa Cemetery, Auckland, with his 1st wife Sarah.      Cheers Annie   :)

ALAS, the death cert for James RICHINGS - (d. Auckland,  7 December 1975, aged 83) - didn't reveal a lot, except it gave him another date of birth - 2 September 1892 (20 February 1889 was recorded on his Army file).
No parents names stated - 2nd wife and children recorded as having pre-deceased him.   NO funeral notice was found  - ( he was buried  the day after his death).

AND so, certificate for his second marriage in 1945 was ordered !

BOMBSHELL to be dropped, in following post  !

Lu    ;D
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Sunday 02 December 07 08:14 GMT (UK)
SECOND MARRIAGE of James RICHINGS

Date:   28 July 1945 at St. Andrews Prsbyterian Church, Symonds Street, Auckland, NZ

>  Elsie CLARKE (45)  -  Divorced 11 July 1938
born Edinburgh, Scotland
Parents:  William SANDISON & Agnes nee LAMB

>   James RICHINGS (52) - widower 5 December 1944
born Christchurch NZ
Parents :
   >   Father :   Thomas RICHINGS, butcher

   >   Mother :   Lilian RICHINGS ... nee  MORININI    !

                            :o             :o              :o

 
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Sunday 02 December 07 09:07 GMT (UK)
Hello Lu,

I'm not entirely sure what you are suggesting - but this family certainly never fails to introduce yet another puzzle.

It's hard to keep up with all the twists and turns.  What was the occupation of Thomas RICHINGS, brother of Lily?  Was he a butcher?  Are you suggesting that James was the son of Lily and Thomas (who we think was Lily's brother); or of Lily and John/Thomas (who we think was Lily's father)?  Oh, what a puzzle.

I take it that you don't (yet) have the certificate for James's first marriage?

Perhaps James got things totally wrong on the 2nd marriage cert?  It seems strange that he gave his mother's name as Lily RICHINGS nee MORININI - and no mention at all of COATES.  Of course, assuming that Lily was his mother (whoever his father was) she'd been gone a long time - died 1917.

I guess there's more digging and delving to be done ...

JAP 
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Tuesday 04 December 07 08:52 GMT (UK)
Hi JAP

.... sorry, should have included a reference to James RICHINGS    ....  blimey.... way, way back, Post # 56 - page 4.

Yes, Thomas (the uncle), was a butcher.

The first marriage for James RICHINGS, took place in Raffrey, Ireland, in 1919 - no certificate.

Mmmm ... just a bit taken aback at what is recorded re: parents on this 2nd marriage cert.   ...  yeah, perhaps it was that he just plucked a few family names out of the air ?

Lu
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: aumarire on Tuesday 04 December 07 23:59 GMT (UK)
Hi again folks,
Have been trying and trying to get a contact from the Wellington ( NSW) area, someone who would be able to check up on a few things for us, with regards William Richard Heasman who married Harriet Newby. You may remember that their marriage cert. gave us absolutely no information or confirmation that William is in fact ours. After much chasing around, I have got a contact at the Wellington Historical Society having a look into it for us. She will be checking the old church records, to see if anything in the original register will give us clues. I suspect she will be replying to me in the next few days, well, lets hope eh!
Will let you know as soon as something happens.
Aumarire
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Wednesday 05 December 07 04:29 GMT (UK)
Aumarire,  Good luck with the Wellington NSW contact!

Lu, I'm trying hard to think of some scenarios to explain the 'bombshell' but ...

Thanks for the reference back to post #56 - I'd completely forgotten about James's 1919 marriage in Raffrey, Co Down (whence Lily's husband Francis COATES originated).  It's hard to remember all the twists and turns.
Whether one could get a copy of that Northern Ireland cert, and what info such a cert should contain, I have no idea.

At least you've finally found Ivy's bc - albeit it's pretty useless!  Do you have her mc and dc with parents' names?  Can't remember whether we've already discussed this.

Given that you've now found Ivy's bc, it restores hope that perhaps you will end up finding birth certs for some of the others - Thomas, Lily and James.

Re the 'bombshell', one thing I'm holding on to is that James's WW1 record referred to Thomas, his next of kin, as his Uncle.  Perhaps James knew that Lily was his mother but had no idea who his father was - but gave some names on the 1945 mc simply for the sake of appearances (to hide illegitimacy).  Only trouble with that is that Uncle Thomas was still alive (Uncle T died - do I recall correctly - in, I think, 1958).  But perhaps there was little chance that Elsie would meet Uncle T and have an opportunity to ask questions if James & Elsie stayed in Auckland (where they were married), and Uncle T in Christchurch.

Best of luck with the ongoing search for some more birth certificates ...

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: aumarire on Sunday 16 December 07 03:45 GMT (UK)
Hi everyone,
Fantastic,,, fantastic, and fantastic again, if you remember, I was chasing the William Heasman marriage in Wellington NSW, and the marriage certificate itself had nothing on it. I have to admit that I really did think that perhaps he was NOT ours,, but I rang the historical society in Wellington, spoke to a lady there, who said she would look into the marriage for me, and see what transpires,, well just this morning ( after being without a computer for 5 days!! it crashed on us) i downloaded all the e-mails, and low and behold, what was there but a reply from the lady in Wellington, NSW, here is what she found, and he IS ours after all yeah!!!!!!

On the 7th June 1878 William Richard HEASMAN
Married Harriet Jane NEWBY
At the Parsonage of the Church of England Wellington NSW
Usual place of residence for both parties was Wellington NSW
Parents: William HEASMAN (Engineer) & Jane Elizabeth HALEIMORE/HALEMERE (very hard to read writing)
Edward B. NEWBY (Draper) & Rebecca RICHARDS

William Heasman was a Horse dealer, born at Gulgong NSW
(V18463367 31A/1846)
Harriet Jane Newby was born in Victoria c. 1854
Witness: Rebecca BISHOP
William E. WALES
Minister: Rev. J. C. BRAVEY

then she also sent the following

Information from Wellington Historical Society Records on the death of Harriet Jane COURT – Died 29/08/1918 aged 65 years.
Buried in the Methodist portion of the Wellington General Cemetery and has a headstone. Born Melbourne Victoria, parents Edward K. BISHOP & Rebecca (nee Richards)
Married 1st at Wellington to William HEASMAN, 2nd to John COURT
No Family.

William HEASMAN – Died 13/05/1897 aged 56 years
Buried Methodist portion Wellington General Cemetery Has Headstone
(Wrong spelling and date)
Born Gulgong (V18463367 31A/1846), Married at Wellington to
Harriet Jane Newby, Family: 1 female deceased.

Jane Harriet Newby’s father was given as Edward B. Newby on the Marriage information but given as Edward K. Bishop in death information (not sure if information on death was incorrect, there was a witness at their Marriage that was Rebecca Bishop, and I will leave that one for you to work out.)
On William Heasman’s death information it gives family as one female deceased, I could find no entry for the birth or death of a child to William or Harriet.
It would seem that William had a twin sister Ann A Heasman born
Gulgong (V18463368 31A/1846)

So I will leave all of this with you all, to digest, and get on with answering many many many e-mails that have piled up since the computer crashed.

But another one hits the dust, and is confirmed.
Aumarire


Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Sunday 16 December 07 05:49 GMT (UK)
Hi Aumarire,

What great news!

So good to know that William of Wellington is the son of William HEASMAN & Jane Elizabeth AYLMORE!  :D  I take it this was on the marriage entry?

But I wonder where that birthplace of Gulgong NSW for him came from??  Was it on the marriage entry - presumably this was an entry from the church records?   And was his age given in the marriage entry?

Those NSW references are actually baptism records from Victoria (entered also in the NSW records) - both at St James Melbourne (the oldest church in Melbourne - see http://www.melbourne.vic.gov.au/info.cfm?top=52&pg=706 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_James_Old_Cathedral ).

Probably easiest to go back to the page 19 summaries.
Both William Richard HEASMAN (the one we take to be the chap who later married Harriet NEWBY) and Ann Amelia HEASMAN (the one we take to be the lady, Annie, who later married MORININI and is the cause of this thread!) were baptized on 16 September 1846 at St James, Melbourne.  Unfortunately, their dates of birth weren't given in the baptism entries.

Yet another puzzle!

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Monday 17 December 07 05:19 GMT (UK)
Hi Aumarire

Wonderful information !     Well done  ... and thanks   :)

Dear Jenn ("tropicalj"), has given us some information on "Clan NEWBY" ... way back on page 23 - post #'s 335 and 336.

Harriet Jane's father seems to have been Edward Brough NEWBY - died 7 October 1854 - Prahran, VIC ?

[Rebecca RICHARDS  m. Edward Brough NEWBY - 20 April 1845 - Folkstone, Kent, ENG] : (IGI)

Rebecca RICHARDS (NEWBY) m. (2) Edward BISHOP - 1858

Edward Kirk BISHOP b. 1833 - died 22 Dec 1889 at Wellington NSW ....   stepfather of Harriet Jane NEWBY ?

Rebecca BISHOP (witness at marriage of William and Harriet) - likely to be her mother ?

[Births - Rebecca RICHARDS / Edward Kirk BISHOP  ~

>   Elizabeth  Newby BISHOP - b. 28 January 1859 - Moorabbin, VIC

>   Rebecca BISHOP - b. 1864 - Moorabbin, VIC  ]


Lu
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: aumarire on Wednesday 19 December 07 07:15 GMT (UK)
Hi Folks,
There is a question that I would like to pose to you all, to those who are more informed than I. Can anyone tell me as to whether the New South Wales Registry of Births Deaths and Marriages would hold copies of Births or Baptisms that would have occurred in Victoria. Now I know that seems almost a strange question, and I think I know the answer,,and my thoughts are NO, they would not,, then can someone tell me why, when I check out the NSW Registry office Online Historical Index, that there are two of our Heasman children registered there, one being Ann A Heasman and William R Heasman, both with the mother Jane E and father William Heasman. There is a strange registration number, different to what I am used to seeing. It just seems a really really strange thing,, and I am sure that there is a logical answer for this, one that once I hear the answer, I will be thinking,,, oh silly me,, of course !!!
Aumarire
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: cando on Wednesday 19 December 07 07:30 GMT (UK)
Hi

The history of the NSW BDM's link
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/historyofRegistrysRec.htm

Registry's Records

The Registry's records go back to the first white settlement in the colony of New South Wales in 1788. In those early years the churches assumed responsibility for recording the details of baptisms, burials and marriages which they performed. The Registry has transcriptions of these records.

In 1856 the Government took over the function of recording all births, deaths and marriages from the churches.

The Registry now has over 17 million records of all birth, death and marriage events that occurred in New South Wales.

A similar registration system operates in each Australian State and Territory. Records relating to events which occurred interstate can be traced by inquiring with that state's Registry office.



Early bdm records of Victoria and Qld are also on the NSW site  - part of colony of NSW
See link
http://www.jaunay.com/bdm.html

Cheers
cando
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Wednesday 19 December 07 07:35 GMT (UK)
Aumarire,

At that time (1846), Victoria was part of the Colony of NSW.

The Act approving Separation was passed by the British Parliament in 1850 and Victoria actually became a separate colony (the Colony of Victoria) the following year.

That's why these old church records are listed in NSW i.e. when the baptisms took place in St James, Melbourne, that location was actually in the Colony of NSW! (They are now also included in the Victorian BDM indexes - which seems a fairly commonsense decision).

You will notice that the NSW reference number starts with a V.

However - far from all the 'Victorian' (i.e. before Separation) old church records are in the NSW index ...
Someone else might know why some are but not all ...

JAP
PS: I still wonder where that birthplace of Gulgong came from!  (See my post - reply #389).

PPS: (Added later) There is quite an interesting background to the CD of Victoria's Early Church Records at:
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~pioneers/pppg5bn.htm
and
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~pioneers/pppg5g.htm
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: aumarire on Wednesday 19 December 07 08:07 GMT (UK)
Hi Folks,
I knew the very moment that I sent the question, that I would know the answer, and that is exactly what happened. Of course Victoria was part of NSW at that time, all I can say to myself is " wake up Aumarire', and I can't even blame my craziness on the time of the day, it is still early in the evening.

Yes Jap, I also wonder about the place of birth for William Richard being noted in the Wellington Historical Society records as being Gulgong came from. This information came from the Society, when I rang them, I asked them if they could search the old church records, to see if those contained any information, as I explained to the lady concerned that the marriage certificate had virtually no information, and I wanted to know if the church records held any other information. Certainly, in the e-mail, in the way she replied, and the order in which she sent the reply, makes me feel certain that Williams place of birth as Gulgong was  information that she got from the marriage registration. How ever, having said that, I am going to go back to her and ask the specific question, 'where did she get that info from'
Will let you all know the answer when I get it.
Aumarire
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Friday 21 December 07 12:25 GMT (UK)
Hello Everyone,

I am still trying to find Amelia Heasman who married the James Bradley. :-X
I have managed to find James Bradley on the 1841 and 1851 census in England.
In 1851 he was living with his Aunt in Manchester also in the house was a Sarah Yahall sic.
Now I found him marrying in Manchester 1851 to a Sarah Yoxall.
I have found a couple of children being born to them in Melbourne.
One was Beatrice Charlotte born 1863,James gives his age as 36yrs born Derbyshire -occup Sawyer
Previous children listed
Alfred 8yrs
Agnes 5 3/4yrs
Emily 3 1/2yrs
1 son & 1 dau dead.

Emily died in 1875-James listed his occup as Engineer.His signature looks the same as the one on the marriage cert to Amelia.His address is hard to read looks like Banrarie Street.Carlton
I cannot find a birth for Emily her death cert states born in Fitzroy -13yrs  Vic & 2  yrs in NSW.
Now when Beatrice Charlotte marries in 1881 at Ringwood she states both her parents are dead.Permission to marry is given by her guardian Charles F or T Bradley.

I cannot find the 1st wife Sarah dying.c 1865
I cannot find the birth of Emily
James states when marrying Amelia he has 5 children living so there is another child born after Beatrice which I can't find.
I cannot find James dying between 1875 and 1881.
I was hoping maybe some of these children might lead us to Amelia but its not looking that way.
Can any of you ladies have a look at this family I think I have missed something as I only have the vital records for Vic for this time period.
Thanks
Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Friday 21 December 07 12:48 GMT (UK)
Annie,

A fantastic piece of research!

I'll have to think this through!

However, one has to say that this family never fails to surprise!

Always another marriage, more children, more doubts as to parentage ...

They leave my boring lot behind without question ...  But what enormous fun the HEASMANs are ...

Many thanks to all the HEASMAN descendants for the enjoyment we've had with this family ...

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: cando on Friday 21 December 07 23:39 GMT (UK)
Hi

Birth with father named as John.

BRADLEY Emily
Father  John
Mother Sarah YOXALL
Birth Place  Collingwood
Year  1860
Reg Number  11286

I haven't read this very long thread but could this be your James' death

BRADLEY James
Father Unknown
Mother
Age 50
Birth Place LANCASHIRE
Death Place
Year 1879
Reg Number 11124

The address in Carlton on Emily's death certificate could possibly be Bouverie Street.

Cheers
Cando


Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Saturday 22 December 07 22:31 GMT (UK)
Hello

Thanks for that Cando -you are right when I look at it again the address it is Bouverie Street.

I did check out the death of the 1879 James Bradley.
He is the right age,and although his birthplace is Derbyshire he did live in Lancashire for a while.However the death cert says he is single.
However given past history in this thread it could well be him but very hard to prove.

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: cando on Saturday 22 December 07 23:58 GMT (UK)
Annie - I wondering about the cirumstances of his death -   If families were 'hard up' they often didn't 'claim' the deceased as their own - so didn't have to bear the funeral costs.  If you have the cert you could follow up further details re his place of burial - was he buried in common ground etc.  May be worth checking at the same cemetery for his wife.  Sorry I haven't read this very long thread.

Is Emily's birth the correct one?

Cando
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Wednesday 26 December 07 07:30 GMT (UK)
Hello Everyone
I have been trying to follow up on the many lose ends of this family.The latest chase has been for the daughter of Rachel Heasman /Cameron/Parkin.
Mary Jane Cameron was born 1872.
Death is recorded as Jane Mary Cameron Roy in 1962
 I could not find a marriage of her to a Roy but  I now think I have her sorted(hopefully)
She appears to have used the name Mabel Cameron.
 She had four children under the name Cameron.(no father listed)
Mabel born 1898
Edith born 1902 -This child's name later reg again as Roy with father Alex
Alice born 1904
Hector born 1908

Her death cert states she married one Alexander Miller Roy c 1895.
But Mr Roy was busy marrying a Flora that year.
On the 1903 electoral rolls Alex M Roy a law clerk is living with his father a solicitor and brother.
 Alexander died in 1913.
Mabel the dau married in 1917 to Adrian Chas C Turner as Mabel Cameron Roy.she died 1947
Edith doesn't appear to have married -d 1992
Alice died 1961 under the name Smith
Hector died as Hector Charles Roy 1955

Mabel(Mary Jane) and her children are all in Fawker Cemetery.

The death cert is the right one --- born Ballarat ,89yrs old.
The interesting thing is the occupation of her father is given as Sea Captain which is far from the truth.Her Dau Edith gave the information -wonder if she grew up hearing tales of a Sea Captain grandfather which is what Jane Elizabeth Aylmore/Heasman/Bransgrove/Anderson/? father is reported to be.

Annie




Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Sunday 30 December 07 03:45 GMT (UK)
 Hello

Aumarire- you may or may not already have this information.

Marion Heasman/Balli/Caldwell's eldest dau Marion b 1870 NZ married John Henry Nesbitt in 1892 in Vic.

After this time I couldn't find anything else on this couple but have now found them having children in South Aust.

Children are:
Marion Eleanor born 21 April 1893 Yatala Plains
William John Albert born 6 Aug 1894 Ottoway
Ernest Robert born 2 May 1896 Ottoway
Mabel Christina born 9 Dec 1897 Yatala

I then lose them again but notice there was William John Albert Nesbitt who enlisted in the 1st War in NZ.
Wonder if they all moved there.
I am not very good at South Aust places perhaps JAP will be able to give you a guide as to where and what type of towns these were.
Annie

Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: cando on Sunday 30 December 07 04:01 GMT (UK)
Hi

Both  areas were in the registered District of Port Adelaide.  To find a full description search for Yatala and Ottoway
http://www.slsa.sa.gov.au/manning/search.html



Cheers
cando
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Sunday 30 December 07 12:30 GMT (UK)
Hi Annie and cando,

I'm Victorian by birth, have lived in many places in Aus and around the world (currently in Adelaide), and have no South Australian ancestors at all - so I'm the worst person to ask about SA locations  :D

Yatala (David Hicks was held there for a while until today) is where the prison is in the northern suburbs of Adelaide - not far from me at all (I live in an inner ENE suburb - ca 5km from the CBD).

Ottoway is up near Port Adelaide - again not all that far away.  Well, nowhere in Adelaide is all that far away compared with some cities!

The HEASMAN family turns up almost anywhere!

We seek them here
We seek them there
Those HEASMANs turn up
Everywhere!


Awaiting the next instalment,

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: aumarire on Monday 31 December 07 04:42 GMT (UK)
Hi Folks, and Annie,
Thanks for the posting re the Nesbitt part of Marions family, I have just arrived back home today, and am away again in the morning for a few days, but just to let everyone know, the Marion/Mary Ann nee Heasman, then Balli then Caldwell family, I have fairly well completed ALL of the descendants on that line, including the Nesbitt family, which by the way,, when I come back, I will post a little story about how I came across all of them,, quite a bit of a 'good luck story'' here. Now, at this stage, I am not sure just exactly how everyone is '''attached'' to the bigger Heasman family,, but if anyone is interested in me sending them the full descendant line, certainly down from Marion/Mary Ann Heasman, then I am only too pleased to do this. Marion/Mary Ann is my Great Great Grandmother.
And yes,, the family did leave Australia, went to New Zealand, then travelled back to Australia, and then again, parts of the family moved back to Aussie, quite interesting really.
Must dash, I have washing to do, and re-packing to do,,
Aumarire.
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Wednesday 16 January 08 01:12 GMT (UK)
Hi again, All   ...    and Happy New Year     :)

Very many thanks - Annie, JAP, Cando -  for all the wonderful, recently contributed information.


The detective work goes on !   ('nuff said, just for now)    ;)

MESSAGE FOR "aumarire"  ... can you help please ?

re:   Mary Ann / Marion CALDWELL's  children  ...

Do you have birth certs for - "Joseph Henry" -  (the first-born one);  for the daughter "Marion";  and also the child named "Thomas" ?    Can you post here, their d.o.b.'s and p.o.b.'s, please ?   (Thanks, we have info on the others).

Also interested in "father's occupation"  as shown on any of these records (or his death record).
AND do you have date of when Wm. and Marion CALDWELL and family, returned to AUS, please ?


Cheers
Lu

Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: aumarire on Thursday 17 January 08 21:48 GMT (UK)
Hi again,
Right, lets see what I have on Mary/Ann/Marions second marriage.
As mentioned before, I have never been able to locate a marriage for Mary Ann to William Richard Caldwell, but in several of the documents I have, they 'claim' to have married in the April of 1868 in Hokitika.
Their first born as far as I can locate was Marion Caldwell, born 4 April 1869 in Kanieri, New Zealand. Now I have a folio number for this birth, but the actual date comes from her direct family, her descendants. Now Marion married a man called John Henry Nesbitt, married on 20 July 1892 in the Manse, Clifton  Hill, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. I have this certificate)  They went on to have 4 children, however one of those children died as a young child, so only three reached adulthood.
Right, second child of Mary Ann and William Richard Caldwell was a Thomas, born abt 1871. This twig of the tree has been hard work, although having said that, I haven't spent a huge amount of time on it. I got his approx year of birth from the  ages quoted on the death certificate of his parents. This Thomas married a Martha nee Cunliff, 30 March 1897 at 29 Napier Street, South Melbourne. Both Thomas and Martha are in Fawkner Cemetery.
They went on to have 4 children.
Next child of Mary Ann and William Richard Caldwell was Eliza Jane and she was born 25 December 1872 in Kanieri, New Zealand and she died March 1954 in Melbourne, When Eliza's birth was registered, her father was recorded as William Caldwell a Miner and mother as Marion Caldwell formerly Balli. Marion registered her birth on the 12th January the following year in Hokitika.   
When Eliza died, she was recorded as being age 81 years. She is buried with her parents in the Melbourne Cemetery,  in the Presbyterian section, Compartment 0 grave 1608. It would appear that Eliza did not marry.
Next child was Joseph Henry Caldwell.
This child is listed on the 1890 death registration of his mother Mary Ann/Marion, he was listed as a deceased child. His date of birth is approx, taken from the age stated on his mothers death registration, and it is assumed that he died before 1877, as another child was born to his mother and given the same Christian name, Joseph Henry Smith Caldwell. I can not find any birth or death registration for this child in New Zealand.

I will post this info, and come back in a few minutes,

Aumarire
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: aumarire on Thursday 17 January 08 22:04 GMT (UK)
Hi again
The next child born to the Caldwell's was Joseph Edward Caldwell, born 12 October 1874  in Hau Hau, a small settlement just out of Hokitika, New Zealand.
The marriage of John Edward and Elizabeth shows us that John was living at 1 Avoca Street, Gleb Sydney and was working as a Butcher at the time of his marriage. He is recorded as being born in Kumara and his father  as William Caldwell, a Labourer. John's mothers name is not recorded on the marriage registration.
Elizabeth was recorded as a Widow, her former marriage to a Langford, as her parents as Benjamin Baker (deceased) and Elizabeth nee Lee ( also deceased). Benjamin is recorded as a Printer. The officiating Minister was a George Hay and the witness's an A Goldsworthy and an A Doyle. Elizabeths address at the time of the marriage was 33 Boyce Street, Glebe, Sydney. The marriage is recorded as having taken place at 31 Bent Street, according to the rites of the Independant Presbyterian Church. Whether this is the Church address, or perhaps a home address with an Officiating Minister I am not sure.
   
We have no further information on the line down from John and Elizabeth Caldwell. This will require further research, which means....time....There was a Bessie A Caldwell born in Glebe in 1903. This was located in the index's, and references are as follows.  29977/1903  CALDWELL  BESSIE A  JOHN E  ELIZABETH  GLEBE. This needs further searching.
There is also a death registration for a John Caldwell, father William mother Marion, this death is ref. 5622/1911 in Granville, Sydney. NSW. This might well be John Edward Caldwell.

Next child born to the Caldwell's was William Henry Smith Caldwell ( the Smith inclusion in the name comes from William Richards mothers maiden surname)
William Henry Smith Caldwell's birth was registered by his father William. The babe William was born in Hau Hau but his birth was registered in Hokitika on the 27th December 1875. William is recorded as being a Miner and his wife as Mary Ann Caldwell formerly Hiesman. [sic]Young William was almost 6 weeks old when he died. He was buried in the Hokitika Cemetery, in the Presbyterian section, plot number 1033, cemetery block no. 56.  The following appeared in the West Coast Times newspaper on Saturday January 8th 1876.
     
Funeral Notice.
The friends of William Caldwell are respectfully invited to follow the remains of his late son to the cemetery. The funeral to move from his residence, Hau Hau, this Saturday afternoon at 3.o'clcock.
Sinclair and Jack (Undertakers).

Next child born to the Caldwell's was Joseph Henry William Smith Caldwell, on the 6 March 1877, again in HauHau.
Joseph Henry Smith Caldwell's birth was registered the day after his birth, while he was born in Hau Hau, his birth was registered by his father William in Hokitika. William is recorded as being a Miner age 32 years and born in Derry, Ireland. Marion Caldwell ( it gives her name as Marion on this cert)  is recorded as being 31 years of age and born in Melbourne. Her maiden name is recorded as Heisman. It is also worthy of noting that the marriage date for William and Marion is stated as April 1868 in Hokitika.

This Joseph married a Flora nee Hogan on the 12 March 1901 in Maryborough, Queensland, Australia and they went on to have 3 children. The family moved back to Sydney area, as all 3 children married in Sydney and had children in Sydney.

Must dash away again
Aumarire
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: aumarire on Thursday 17 January 08 23:30 GMT (UK)
Hi again folks
I know I said a few listings back, ""Nesbitt family, which by the way,, when I come back, I will post a little story about how I came across all of them,, quite a bit of a 'good luck story'' here."", so decided I will tell you, this is not really any facts and figures here, but just a good luck story that is quite interesting.

I was living in Canberra, Australia, a number of years back, actually over 15 years ago now, and was at the National Library one day, trying to get a hold and understanding regarding the Balli Caldwell  family. I had seen a microfich index that indicated that Marion Caldwell had married a NESBITT, so wanted to check the corresponding index for Mr Nesbitt's Christian names. Went to the draws, found the fiche missing, so under my breath said something along the lines of ' darn, blast' a person standing next to me said,, whats wrong,, ( I had said it very softly, so she must have had good hearing) Anyway I told her that the 'N' fiche were missing and said I was looking for a Nesbitt family. Another man heard me telling her this, he said " do you know that there is a Nesbit/Nesbitt and Nessbit Society" to which I answered no. He said,, I will give you their contact details, perhaps you might like to write to them. I of course said thanks, and placed the address into the back of my book. I must admit that I had no intention of making contact with this Society, however, with a time lapse of about 20 weeks, I found the slip of paper again and figured, nothing ventured, nothing gained. Thank goodness I had not written to them before, and had left it until that date, as a coincidence was about to happen.
I wrote and said,,, I have a Marion Caldwell who apparently married a Mr Nesbitt, that I knew nothing at all about the family, whether they had children or not, but that Marion had been born in New Zealand, and the family had gone back to Australia and that she had married this man.
Meanwhile, on the very same day, in the same bundle of letters, a man who lives in Sydney wrote to the Society, and said, my Grandfather John Henry Nesbitt married a lady called Marion Caldwell. Marion was born in New Zealand, but she married my grandfather in Melbourne. Are you able to help me at all. Do any of your members relate to this family at all.

So what about that for a coincidence, his letter, and my letter, arrived in the same bundle of mail, so of course the person opening the mail put two and two together, and put us in touch. I have always thought, had I written to the Society as soon as I got the address, some 20 weeks before hand,, then perhaps the connection would never have been made. And of course, had I not originally cursed under my breath while searching at the National Library, and have someone overhear me, then again, the connection would never have been made, because I sure as heck had never heard of any Nesbit/Nesbitt and Nessbit Society ha ha!!!!

So that is my good luck story, a good one I think

Aumarire




Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: aumarire on Thursday 17 January 08 23:45 GMT (UK)
Hi again,

Thought I would show you what I have written down for the Nesbitt connection. This relates to Marion Caldwell and her husband John Henry Nesbitt.
 
Prior to his marriage to Marion, John Henry Nesbitt was married, however his wife died. They had a child Margaret, but as yet I haven't determined weather Marion helped raise Margaret or whether she was placed with other family members.
John and Marion met when John was performing in an opera in a theatre in Melbourne Australia. Marion was at the opera with her father, William Richard Caldwell, when after the show Marion asked her father to take her backstage to meet some of the performers. This they did, and Marion met John who was to court her and eventually marry her.
   
The marriage certificate of John and Marion shows us that John' was recorded as a widower and then it states 'former wife deceased in 1889'. It also then lists 2 children born to John from his previous marriage, and yet we have only been told of one child, a girl named Margaret. What happened to the other child has yet to be determined. John is recorded as being a Sawyer, age 27 and that his present address at the time of his marriage was Abbotsford, but that his usual address was Port Adelaide. His father John was noted as being a Labourer.
Marion is recorded as being born in Kaniere, Hokitika and her rank or profession is listed as 'lives at home'. her age was 23 years and her then present and usual address was listed as South Melbourne. her father was recorded as William Caldwell a Labourer and Marion Heasman The witness's to their wedding were Alexander McKinne? (the writing is poor, so that name may not be correct) and also Margaret Ann Reay.
   
The circumstances of Marion's burial are somewhat different, she died on the 29th December of 1945, and was buried in Thames, however later on there was a decision to remove her from there and place her with her husband in Maramarua. This was done on the 3rd August 1948. Actually the cemetery was on land that was originally part of the Nesbitt family farm. The previous owner of that farm land had given a small parcel of land to the local authority, to be used as a cemetery, so the Nesbitt farm boarded the cemetery.

Of course the above shows us that Marion and John henry Nesbitt, after their marriage, and after giving birth to their 4 children, left Australia and went to New Zealand, as this is where they both died. This is also where 2 of their three adult children ( remember, one of their children died as a young child) married, and their families are still in New Zealand, but one of their sons, Ernest Robert Nesbitt left New Zealand and went back to live in Australia, namely Sydney, and those descendants are still in the Sydney area, in fact it was  his son who I originally made contact with, with the ''good luck'' story as above.

Aumarire.
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Friday 18 January 08 21:50 GMT (UK)
Hi Everyone

Loved your Nesbitt story Aumarire -what are the odds of that happening?

This story has more twists and turns than I ever believed possible.

I am working on yet another twist this time with the missing Amelia.Should have a result for you all later today.

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Saturday 19 January 08 00:50 GMT (UK)
Hi All      :)

Many thanks "aumarire" for the wealth of information provided on CALDWELL.    Just needed to know when Mary Ann / Marian  was having her babies, and what else she was likely to have been "up to" during her time near Hokitika.     (A wee "surprise" for you, follows (next post))  ;)

An amazing story of your good fortune with Nesbitt research - thanks for sharing it with us     :)

Cheers
Lu

 
 
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Saturday 19 January 08 01:26 GMT (UK)
 :)

SEPTEMBER  1868   Westland NZ



"District Court at Westland"

15 September 1868

Marian BALLI   and   Annie HEASMAN

      file for BANKRUPTCY      !!                ::)


[More shortly ... ]


PS :   Sorry, a glitch prevented me posting a link to this.

   http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/

PapersPast  - "West Coast Times" - 15 September 1868
- page 3 Advertisements - column 3 :

AND  ... (same newspaper) - 15 August 1868 -

"List of letters received during the month of April, 1868, and
remaining unclaimed on 31 July, 1868"

   ~   BALLI - Mrs Marion    :
                   
                                  ____________

THE BANKRUPTCY :   Unfortunately there was no further information to be had on this .     :(

Perhaps this is an explanation ?

The "West Coast Times" on 1 October 1868 - reported ...

"Sittings of the Westland District Court in its criminal jurisdiction and also Bankruptcy, have been held during the month (of September), but the cases disposed of, were of no public interest".
 
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Sunday 20 January 08 00:31 GMT (UK)
Hi Everyone

Good news -the husband of Amelia Heasman -James Bradley has been found dying in 1899 in NSW.
Only thing is his wife is no longer Amelia.
It is the right James Bradley has the same parents as per his marriage cert to Amelia.Has the same children etc from his 1st marriage.
But he has remarried in NSW in 1885 and started a new family.
No mention of  the marriage to Amelia.
So what become of Amelia?

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Sunday 20 January 08 02:45 GMT (UK)
Great work Annie   ... and many thanks    :)

"So what became of Amelia" ?

[Hmmm ... I think I know    ;)    ... but you tell the story please ]    :)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: wjeffrey76 on Sunday 20 January 08 05:20 GMT (UK)
Hi All...

Thanks Lu for your email today. It sparked my interest and helped me find this website! I've been sitting here for the past hour pouring over all of your posts regarding the HEASMANs and I wanted to weigh in on the discussion with what I have;

Better introduce myself first though; my name is Winston, I live in Sydney and I've been doing my family history for a couple of years now. I'm a young family historian (31 years old), married with three young children.

I have an Amelia HEASMAN in my tree that has proven to be a road-block for me too! Amelia is my G-G-Grandmother on my fathers side.

There is a possibility that our Amelia's are one in the same.

Here is the information that I have, and I would be interested to hear your thoughts:

Amelia HEASMAN born about 1851. Some family stories say she was born in the UK, some say Sydney, and others say in VIC. I have always had recorded that Amelia's parents were; Herman HEASMAN & Amelia //. But I have never found any documented proof to tell me where I got that info from, and I can't remember who told me that these were their names. I have asked all the relatives that could know and none are certain.

I have the following certificates:

Marriage certificate between Peter DEHON (Brewer / Bachelor) & Amelia HEASMAN (Full Age / Spinster), 20 May 1873. Ross, Westland, New Zealand. Witnesses; Ada Harris, Sarah & Alice Colquhoun.

Birth certificate of my G-Grandmather, Katherine DEHON, born 5 Oct 1881, in Hokitika NZ, father; Peter DEHON (Brewer / 36 yrs / Born Antwerp), mother; Amelia DEHON formerly HEASMAN (30 yrs / Born Sydney, AUS)

Marriage Certificate between Amelia Nesiah? DEHON (Widow / Birthplace Hampshire, ENG / Dressmaker / 39 yrs old / Parents; William HEASMAN (Musician) & Jane Elizabeth HAYLMORE - Deceased), and Simeon RIDINGS (Woodturner / 36 yrs old / Parents; Simeon RIDING (Cotton Warper) - Deceased & Elizabeth Allwright?). Interestingly the witnesses on this certificate are Lilly BRADLEY, and Emily CLARK.

Death certificate for Amelia RIDING 31st Jul 1934, Mascot NSW. Shows the following information:

Age 75 yrs old, Parents William EASMAN - Labourer & Annie HAILMORE. Buried in the Church of England Section Botany Cemetery.

Born England, 20 year in Victoria, 45 years in NSW.

Place of marriage age, and to whom: (1) Peter DEHON, 20 yrs old, Ross Town NZ. (2)Samuel RIDING, 40 yrs old, Sydney NSW.

Children of Marriage:
1st marriage, Amelia 54, Louis 50, Katherine 49, John 46, 1 male deceased.
2nd marriage, No issue.

This certificate shows prooves that my Amelia HEASMAN's parents were definately William HEASMAN & Jane Elizabeth HAYLMORE, not Herman & Amelia as I have previously recorded.

Lu told me about a certificate which I have, but that I had previously disregarded as not being my Amelia. There is a marriage in VIC,  20 Sep 1971 between James BRADLEY Widower 1865, 5 living children & Amelia HEASMAN birthplace Melbourne VIC. It says she is a dressmaker which matches with other documents I have, but sadly doesn't give any further details to confirm that this Amelia is mine.

Is it possible that Amelia HEASMAN married in 1871, the marriage didn't turn out for one reason or another, and Amelia moved over to Hokitika NZ where she married Peter DEHON in 1873? She could have lied about being a spinster when she married Peter (wouldn't be the first time!). Peter DEHON died in 1888 Hokitika NZ, and Amelia at some time between 1888 & 1897 moved to Sydney AUS where she married Simeon RIDING.

If this rings true for you as well I have alot of the descendants of Amelia HEASMAN to Peter DEHON that I would love to share.

Hope to hear your thoughts!

Cheers
Winston




Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Sunday 20 January 08 05:51 GMT (UK)
Welcome to Roots chat  Winston

what a  wonderfull  tale  this  is.

How  very  interesting  yet another  twist  in  the tale  and  yet another Heasman  lassie  taking  of  to  New Zealand to  avoid a  husband  or three!!!

These ladies  never  let  the truth  stand  in  the way  of another husband.

I  haven't been  able  to  submit  much  to  this  search  lately, AnnieCaroline  has  done so  much  wonderful  work  in Sydney  to  keep  this  tale tripping along.

The wonderfull  tale of  the Caldwell line  as  told  by  Aumarie  gave me  goosebumps,  what are  the  odds  of that  happening.  To  me it  did seem  like fate stepped in.

I  will  have a  look at  the  Electorall  Rolls and see what  is to be found.

kind regards Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Sunday 20 January 08 05:55 GMT (UK)
Hi

Welcome to rootschat Winston.

You have just proved beyond any doubt that your Amelia Heasman is the missing daughter of  William and Jane Elizabeth Heasman!

We are all thrilled to have the answer to this little mystery.

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Monday 21 January 08 01:52 GMT (UK)
Hi Winston     :)

Yes, welcome to RootsChat, and especially  .... welcome to "Clan" HEASMAN  !

Thank you for sharing all your great information here.

A remarkable story of our g-g-Grans, but only made possible by all the wonderful, dedicated, generous contributors to this thread - to whom we owe so much gratitude.

Surprisingly, Amelia DEHON, only became a factor in this search, late on Friday.   Whilst looking up some ITM notices for another RootsChatter, I decided this 1873 DEHON marriage, was worth investigating (despite our Amelia having married a James Bradley in 1871).

That the ITM revealed Amelia had lived in Hokitika for just 5 months, aroused suspicion - it seemed so very probable that like her sisters Mary Ann (Marion) and Annie, before her, she had jumped on a boat to New Zealand, leaving a husband in her wake!      An excited exchange of emails with "annecaroline" (Annie), ensued.   

SO MUCH credit is due to Annie though ~ her findings were just brilliant, and her further generosity in obtaining certificates, was so appreciated.
DEAR ANNIE  .... ENORMOUS THANKS !    :)

Have sourced quite a lot of information on Amelia during her time in NZ ... will post some here shortly.   And Winston, I'll send you some additional links you might like to explore further.

I think the bottom of Sydney Harbour is the likely resting place of our William HEASMAN ?     But the search goes on to "find" Jane Elizabeth (HEASMAN) ANDERSON.   (Did she too go to NZ ?   .... now checking) !

Lu
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Monday 21 January 08 09:41 GMT (UK)
Hi

Winston-
Can I ask when Amelia married Mr Riding did the certificate state Amelia's address at the time?

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: wjeffrey76 on Monday 21 January 08 09:57 GMT (UK)
Thanks so much guys for welcoming me to your thread!

Annie

The usual place of residence only says Sydney, NSW. The certificate does say that they were married at 16 Mary St, Newtown According to rites of the Independent Baptist Church, but I'm not sure if this is the church address.

Simeon RIDING's death in 1924 has his residence as King St, Mascot

Amelia RIDING's death in 1934 has her living at 16 Macintosh St, Mascot

When I get my scanner working I'll post up the certificates I have for you to view.

Cheers
Winston
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Tuesday 22 January 08 01:43 GMT (UK)
Hi again All

DEHON   ....    New Zealand Births (all registered at Hokitika)

1877
>    Amelia *
>    Peter            3rd quarter - Folio # 2437
(They share the same registration number?    Annie has also discovered a NSW birth - 1877 - for Amelia DEHON - parents Peter and Amelia ??)

1879
>     William    -  # 481 - 1st quarter

1880
>     Louis  -  #  2765  -  3rd quarter

1881
>     Katherine  -  #  3774  -  4th quarter

1883
>     Philip  -  # 2759  -  3rd quarter
DEATH for Philip > >   1884 - # 257 -  1st  quarter

1887
>     John  -  #1697  -  2nd quarter
                                      _____________

Lu
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Tuesday 22 January 08 03:24 GMT (UK)
THE LIFE AND TIMES of
             ...    Peter DEHON  and  Amelia HEASMAN

Married - 20 May 1873 at Ross (South of Hokitika), Westland, New Zealand.

[The following info has been sourced from articles appearing in the "West Coast Times" at PapersPast] :

     http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/

>    9 June 1876 - "Inquest on the late fire at Ross"
~  fire at brewery at Ross ... mentions "DEHAN" (DEHON ?)
..."has not been at brewery for six months" :

>    8 June 1881 - p.2 -  "Hokitika Licensing Court"
~  .... "the Bridge Hotel is, at present, licensed to Peter DEHON, but is altogether out of repair".  (J. Peake appears to be owner of Bridge Hotel - since 1871 - a Herrmann Myer takes over license in September 1881.   Other articles refer to DEHON's Hotel, at Gibsons Quay, Hokitika) :

>    9 February 1887 - "Resident Magistrates Court"
~  P. Cran  v.  DEHON  - claim for L 6-14-0 :

>    19 September 1888 - various death notices for Peter DEHON :

>    29 June 1889  -  "Charitable Aid Commisssion"
~  .... "I knew Peter DEHON, the brewer.  He was in the hospital.   He was actively engaged up to the time of his admission, at brewing, at Hokitika.   He owes L 6-10-0 ...  paid L 1-0-0 ...  and I don't know whether any steps have been taken to recover.   I don't believe his widow is able to pay it".   :

>    25 November 1892 - p.2
~  a reference here to Louis George DEHON, aged 12.  (See following post) :

>    15 February 1893 - p.2 - "Fire at Cottage"
~  Mrs. DEHON's cottage at Sale Street, catches fire.  Cottage is insured for L 50-0-0 :

>    27 July 1893 - p3 - "Auctioneers Notice"
~  ... "under instructions from Mrs A. DEHON, will sell the premises at Sale Street - Section 908 on which is erected a six-roomed house;  brick chimneys, tanks etc.  This property is most centrally situated and is for positive sale.  Title perfect".  :

>    5 July 1894 - p. 2 - "Post Office Notice"
"Letters from beyond New Zealand, await ... Mrs DEHON :
                                        _____________

[Winston - quite a lot more to be had for DEHON - will PM you some further references]
Lu     :)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Tuesday 22 January 08 03:35 GMT (UK)
PapersPast

"West Coast Times" - 25 November 1892 - p. 2

"A little waif named Louis George DEHON, aged 12, was brought up at the Magistrates Court before Mr. MacFarlane yesterday, charged with larceny of a hat which he had stolen from the State School building.   

The evidence of the police disclosed a sad case of neglect on the part of his only surviving parent.

.... the boy was committed to the Burnham Industrial School till he reaches the age of 15 years, where at least he will be removed from his past evil surroundings".  :
                                      _______

[Louis DEHON - son of Amelia and Peter ?]       :'(
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Tuesday 22 January 08 03:49 GMT (UK)
Hello  there All

what a fascintating tale.

The  ongoing inter-twinning  thought in  my head  is  did  any  of  these Girls  have  happy lives?  All  very sad  and yet exciting as  well.

I did  note  a  birth  registered  to  just Amelia Dehon  in  sydney no  father  named  Robert Dehon. 

Really  there  should be a  wonderfull  film  in this  all.

Annie  I know  we discussed  the  fact  that if William  Heasman  had suicided  way  back  then  he  wouldn't be registered  but  would  the  paper of  the day  carried  the "lurid tale"

Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Tuesday 22 January 08 09:57 GMT (UK)
Hi Jenn,
There could well be information in the newspapers about William Heasman but how to stumble across it?
There is no inquest and dare I say it but maybe his family were not telling the truth about him being dead.He could of just done a runner.

Maybe we should get the professionals in from Who Do You Think You Are?Now that would make a interesting program.
Still have to find Jane Elizabeth Aylmore Heasman Bransgrove Anderson and young Elizabeth Ann.Wonder what tales there will be there.

Annie
PS that birth to Amelia in 1901-thats the dau of Amelia Heasman Bradley Dehon
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Tuesday 22 January 08 10:07 GMT (UK)
Winston

The address that Amelia Riding died at 16 Macintosh St, Mascot was the address of her daughter Amelia Harris.

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Tuesday 22 January 08 10:28 GMT (UK)
PapersPast

"West Coast Times" - 25 November 1892 - p. 2

"A little waif named Louis George DEHON, aged 12, was brought up at the Magistrates Court before Mr. MacFarlane yesterday, charged with larceny of a hat which he had stolen from the State School building.   

The evidence of the police disclosed a sad case of neglect on the part of his only surviving parent.

.... the boy was committed to the Burnham Industrial School till he reaches the age of 15 years, where at least he will be removed from his past evil surroundings".  :
                                      _______

[Louis DEHON - son of Amelia and Peter ?]       :'(


it is  rather  pleasing to see a marriage in NSW  for a Louis Dehon in 1910 or 1911 seems he survived  his  three years in the Burnham Industrial School.

Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Sunday 03 February 08 11:36 GMT (UK)
Hi Everyone

I have discovered that the daughter of Jane Wilkinson nee Heasman -Rachel Wilkinson is not the one we found dying in NSW in 1891.
The one who died in 1891 was a married woman and no relation.
This now means Rachel has disappeared.I can't find her in NSW and wonder if she stayed in Melbourne.
Can someone have a look at the Vic BDMs and see if there is a marriage or death for her?

Thanks
Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Wednesday 13 February 08 03:03 GMT (UK)
Hi Lucy

I am afraid I have to report I have had no luck finding any trace of Jane Aylmore Heasman Anderson.Nor can I find Elizabeth Ann after her birth in 1871.They seem to have vanished.If daughter Amelia's marriage cert is to be believed she (Jane) was deceased by 1897.
I contacted Rookwood Cemetery just on the off chance she was buried with daughter Jane Wilkinson but no luck.
However I have discovered Jane Wilkinson died at her daughter Frances' house in Guildford NSW.At the time of her death daughters Rachel and Frances were alive .
I have discovered Frances married Wm Thomas Mason in 1886.I found 3 children born but so far it appears only one survived a daughter Venus Patience Mason.
Venus married twice -1917 to John Baxter,then 1957 to Cecil Stanley Lee.She died c 1983.
Frances died 1957 and is in Rookwood with husband William who died 1937.
Still no sign of what became of the other daughter Rachel.
I still think its a bit odd Jane Wilkinson left everything to her daughter Florence Payne's son Cecil.

Will keep trying
Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Wednesday 13 February 08 11:22 GMT (UK)
Hi Annie

THANK YOU so very much for all this wonderful information, and for your ongoing dedication to the cause.    :)

Jane Aylmore Heasman ANDERSON and the young Elizabeth Ann .... mmm .... yes, they could have gone absolutely anywhere ?    I've looked at NZ cemetery records ... especially West Coast ... but to no avail.     Might be time to try NZ Death Index ?

Thanks again.

Lu
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Wednesday 13 February 08 11:46 GMT (UK)
there is  this death entry  in  Victoria  that catches my eye

Charlotte Ann FRANCIS aged 86 at Auburn in 1948 reg no 1037
father Morton Wm Thos
mother Amelia HEASMAN


a  quick  look  reveals  that she was born  in Tasmanina to William Morton  and Amelia HESMAN trying to  find a  death for Amelia Morton.
Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: aumarire on Wednesday 07 May 08 09:38 BST (UK)
Hi folks,
Have not been around for months and months, hubby LOST all my e-mails just before Christmas, :'( have spent all that time trying to get them all back, still working on it. Will try to bring myself up to date with what is happening on this chat line, and will then see what I can add, if anything.
Aumarire
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: JAP on Wednesday 07 May 08 10:34 BST (UK)
Hi Aumarire,

And there I was, when I saw this new post on the thread, thinking that there was another fascinating scandal about to be revealed!

I'm sure we all look forward to what you might have to tell us.

Incidentally, the techno experts on RC might be able to help you to retrieve your emails?

All the best,

JAP
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Wednesday 07 May 08 11:10 BST (UK)
Hi again,  Aumarire and JAP     :)

Mmm ... I think quite probably this thread is "all-scandaled-out" now ?    (Or do I speak too soon ? )     ;D

.... and Aumarire, what a dreadful thing to have happen - I wish you much luck with the retrieval process.     

Regards

Lu
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Wednesday 07 May 08 12:16 BST (UK)
Hello  there

what a  pity,  but  no  updates  nothing shaking  ah  well all  good  things  must come  to an end.......  what's  that wait there's more....hope  so

Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Monday 19 May 08 23:33 BST (UK)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,305112.0.html

Just  to  let all  know  about AnneCaroline,  I received a  PM  saying that she  is extremley  ill.

As  I  said  on  the above thread She was a wonderfull  person, so  willing to  help  others all the time.

I  know  she helped a great deal  with this thread

kind regards Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: tropicalj on Monday 02 March 09 20:54 GMT (UK)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=262672.new#new

for all  those who have followed this fascinating  thread a bit more exciting  information has come to hand on  this thread

kind thoughts to all Jenn
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: annecaroline on Tuesday 03 March 09 08:03 GMT (UK)
Wonderful news about John Richings for you Lucy.

Think you might have to do a J K Rowling ( Harry Potter)and sign a seven movie deal or possibility more.

You have the Heasman story,the Riching story,the Annie Mornini story ,the Heasman sisters stories not to mention the whole next generation.

Why are your families so interesting???We all wait the next chapter with excitement.

Annie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Tuesday 03 March 09 19:44 GMT (UK)
Hi Annie     :)

Yes, this new John RICHINGS information is just absolutely brilliant !

Who would have thought the there might have actually been a divorce ?    (And ... that "ishtat" has in fact, a copy of the 1873 documents !    Mind blowing !)

And I do now have a collection, of truly amazing stories ... and yes, not to forget the wonderful snippets from the next generation - thanks so much Annie  :).

Aw  ... don't know about a book (or series) ?     It's all being told, on here.   

But I can't, (and shouldn't), claim ownership !   For without the astounding help I've had from all you wonderful people, I doubt that some of these stories, would ever have surfaced.

I'm happy too, that so many people have derived enjoyment from reading about my "rotten rellies" ... and that a thread such as this, demonstrates what is achievable, through collaborative effort.

Ah, RICHINGS  ....  the never ending story  ....  8)

Cheers
Lu

Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: pepe on Sunday 31 October 10 15:27 GMT (UK)
I have only just joined this but was sent a link by a cousin of mine. Re Ritchings I ama Great grand daughter of Sarah Armitage who was married to John Ritchings at one point. sAw correspondence about John going off to Australia. would be interested in divorce papers etc.
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: pepe on Sunday 31 October 10 15:36 GMT (UK)
I was sent this link by a cousin of mine. i believe you were researching John Ritchings . I am the greatGrand daughter of Sarah Ann who first married John Ritchings.
I think you have divorce papers etc. i would be interested.
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Kare Dean on Monday 03 February 14 07:10 GMT (UK)
hi My Name Is Karen Dean/Dehon new to this so please forgive me if I get this wrong  I have read this entire post with much interest . my family history that I know is my father was William dean /dehon name was changed by his father john Dehon  his brothers name was Louis George Dehon he also had a sister Katherine his mothers name was Amelia and his fathers name was peter my grandfather John dehon changed his name to dean after a falling out with the family . a lot of my family lived in Mascot . if possible I am sure my great grandmother was Amelia heaseman and her husband was peter dehon being my great grandfather . if possible I would like to ask if any one could supply me with any information that would help with my search .
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: frankandlaurie1 on Monday 03 February 14 23:29 GMT (UK)
I too am connected into this family, there has been quite a lot of work done on the Dehon family. Amelia Heasman married firstly to a man named James Bradley, in 1871 in Melbourne then Mr Dehon in 1873 in Hokitika New Zealand and then Mr Riding in Sydney in 1897.
Laurie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: frankandlaurie1 on Monday 03 February 14 23:31 GMT (UK)
According to his death certificate - Peter Dehon died in Hokitika, New Zealand on the 18th September 1888 - he died from pneumonia and gangrene of the lung.
Laurie
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Tuesday 04 February 14 18:29 GMT (UK)
Hi Karen  :)

Thanks for your PM (I have left a message also on the DEHON thread).

Just in the process of sifting through all the papers connected with the various branches of this family, so will get back to you (via PM), shortly.

   ~  Lu
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: Lucy2 on Tuesday 04 February 14 18:45 GMT (UK)
... and hello again Laurie.   :)
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: NZRichings on Monday 26 February 18 03:39 GMT (UK)
Hi Lucy

O .M G.
You won't believe this the penny has just dropped!!
Was your Rachel Riching daughter of Thomas Riching -born
Annie Lillian Rachel Riching.If she married Edward (Ted)Baker in 1920 we are related by marriage.Ted was my grandmother's cousin!!!!

Annie

Hi there...I've yet to read through every post yet to know what information you have but when I was doing my Richings family research at Christchurch library in New Zealand several years ago I wrote down records for these people...I have addresses, dates, marriage dates, occupations etc that I will post at somestage for you ☺
Title: Re: VIC - Marriage(s) -Look up please
Post by: NZRichings on Monday 26 February 18 04:26 GMT (UK)
Aumarire,  Good luck with the Wellington NSW contact!

Lu, I'm trying hard to think of some scenarios to explain the 'bombshell' but ...

Thanks for the reference back to post #56 - I'd completely forgotten about James's 1919 marriage in Raffrey, Co Down (whence Lily's husband Francis COATES originated).  It's hard to remember all the twists and turns.
Whether one could get a copy of that Northern Ireland cert, and what info such a cert should contain, I have no idea.

At least you've finally found Ivy's bc - albeit it's pretty useless!  Do you have her mc and dc with parents' names?  Can't remember whether we've already discussed this.

Given that you've now found Ivy's bc, it restores hope that perhaps you will end up finding birth certs for some of the others - Thomas, Lily and James.

Re the 'bombshell', one thing I'm holding on to is that James's WW1 record referred to Thomas, his next of kin, as his Uncle.  Perhaps James knew that Lily was his mother but had no idea who his father was - but gave some names on the 1945 mc simply for the sake of appearances (to hide illegitimacy).  Only trouble with that is that Uncle Thomas was still alive (Uncle T died - do I recall correctly - in, I think, 1958).  But perhaps there was little chance that Elsie would meet Uncle T and have an opportunity to ask questions if James & Elsie stayed in Auckland (where they were married), and Uncle T in Christchurch.

Best of luck with the ongoing search for some more birth certificates ...

JAP
Hi all....this James Richings maybe my great grandfather. Mine born bout 1892 did live in Christchurch with wife Sarah Richings nee Thompson...married 1919 over in Ireland . Im a realitive of this marriage. Sarah died in 1944. James moved to Auckland. Sarah  and James had 2 children Vera and Thomas born in Christchurch. Thomas moved to Auckland aswell.
Be good to confirm if this is him and Elsie was his second wife.
My James Richings  died 1975