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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cheshire => Topic started by: Doggy on Thursday 22 November 07 20:56 GMT (UK)
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Hi
I'm wondering if anyone knows of any resource where I could find out about the Mills or Millers of the Wirral. My ancestor Joseph WILLIAMSON was a miller and farmer in Raby around abt 1860's to 1890. I also believe that the mill was a watermill which I believe was quite rare?
Any help most appreciated.
Cheers
Doggy
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Hi
I also believe that the mill was a watermill which I believe was quite rare?
Any help most appreciated.
Cheers
Doggy
Water Mills were not rare as they provided a reliable and constant source of power, unlike wind mills.
Stan
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http://www.cheshiremagazine.com/Archives/mills.html
A snippet..
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http://www.geocities.com/mar1elene/northwich1828.html
was his Father a miller? in this link to Northwich commercial resident "thingy" there is a Williamson who is a miller at Witton mill...
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Hi
Thanks for the replies. I think the Witton Mill thing is a coincidence. My understanding is tha Joseph married into a family of millers. His father in law, Richard GEE was the previous miller in Raby and he was originally from Nantwich. I think Joseph's father was a shoemaker!
Cheers
Doggy
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Hi Stan
I think I meant to say that they were rare on the Wirral as there were few streams etc.
I seem to have seen a photo of the Raby mill somewhere and I've googled & gogled without any luck.
Cheers
Doggy
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Googling watermills brings up loads of sites,trouble is there dosn't seem to be much on Cheshire ???
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Doggy
The address for the water mill in 1838 was
Raby Water Mill, Raby mere, Bromborough Wirral
Celia
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Is this man any relation
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Doggy
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There is a database of mills on this site
http://www.millarchive.com/
Martin Briscoe
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Hi Guys
Thanks for the great info.
Celia, I'm not sure about the John WILLIAMSON connection, there was a John that I am aware of but he would be too young for 1874. The other entry is spot on.
Martin thanks for the Mill archive site, I've been on but not had much luck with my Raby Mill?
Cheers
Doggy
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I will see what i can dig up in the library for you on the mill :)
Celia
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Hi Celia
Thank you very much for your kind offer. The Williamson's are my fathers maternal grandparents. We know of someone related still in the area but unfortunately they dont seem interested in finding out about their past. Each to their own I suppose. I am in Hazel Grove near Stockport so if there is something in your local library that would be great.
Cheers again
Doggy
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Doggy
As promised went in search of a photo and info on the mill, from a book I thought I seen in the Cabinet. Then I would search the Historical directories, simple.
However for some reason I changed my mind and asked the librarian about the Mill while she looked in all the behind the counter paperwork and photos I looked through the shelves for some books. Between us we came up with absolutely nothing ;D we found a few mills but no mention of Raby Mill at all. I find that amazing ???. While I going through the shelves I came across a small book I have used before, Directory of Wirral including Birkenhead 1861 Mawdsey & Sons. Although this book is set out the same as the Historical directories but it has nothing to do with them. They are what I call Local because they only contain Wirral, there very few if them. So Joseph was bound to be in it. He was. Joseph Williamson Miller Raby Mill &William Gee Farmer.
So I then went to backtrack in the historical Directories 1859/7 and so on. They weren’t in them, I went back down to 1872 and neither Joseph nor any Gee’s were in them very strange:( Then again maybe Wirral wasn’t included in those years every directory is different. Did you have any Williamsons in Liverpool they had multiplied by the 1870’s
I found another book Post office Directory of Cheshire 1864 Under Occupations Millers
William Gee Raby Great Neston Chester
Joseph Williamson same address. Next visit I will have a scout round and see if I can find any earlier Wirral Cheshire postal directories. I didn’t find much but at leased you have got a year now ;D
Celia
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Hi Celia
Thank you ever so much for looking into this it is really appreciated. I must admit I'm a little confused looking at my docs. I have Richard GEE as the miller in Raby before he dies in 1857 and then Joseph Williamson takes over. The census returns back this up.
William GEE (William's father in law-Wllliam GEE's father Peter was also a miller although I don't know where yet?) was a shoemaker (cordwainer) until the 1871 census when he is listed as Market Gardener, he dies in 1879 aged 66.
Joseph is still in Raby as miller in 1881 but by 1891 he was listed as farmer only but living in Mill House. He was still there n 1901 by which time he was living by own means.
So many Gee's, I think I need to look at it all again and make sure I've got the relations in the correct order and I think the Williamson and Gees intermarried which aint half confusing the issue.
Hope you can make sense of this and thanks again for your help.
Doggy
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I think the Williamson and Gees intermarried which aint half confusing the issue.
Gees thats Understandable ;D ;D
Celia
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Doggy
on leaving the archives today,i forgot to remember to ask about Raby Mill :) So went back in,and the librarian gave me all the books about Raby.Looked through them all but again no mention of the mill. Was it actually called Raby Mill or was it a mill in Raby,i cant fathom why there is no mention of it
Celia
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Hi Celia
Thanks again for trying to research the mill. I have no idea what it was called but hopefully I've found it on the following link:
http://www.old-maps.co.uk/IndexMapPage2.aspx
It looks like it is just at the north end of Raby Mere and it looks like it was called Raby Mill?
I'll see if I can see it on any other maps. I suppose it might be interesting to look at the census discription of the district? Unfortunately my ancestry subs have lapsed :'(
Anyway I'll let you know if I find more
Doggy
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Hi Celia
I've just found this photo on the internet. In 1891 & 1901 they were said to be living at Mill House!
Cheers
Doggy
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Hi Celia
Wow, I've just studied the photo I've just posted and it looks like Joseph Williamson's name in the background! What do you think?
Doggy
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Doggy
thats a wow from me.who's clever Boy/girl :-\ :-\ :) I looked at some maps as well ,but they were to small.I just downloaded the picture to see if i could enlarge it eough to see the name on the sign but it was to blurred.The last name is long enough to be Williamson and yes it looks like it could be Joseph with a middle initial cant read the bottom line. The photo is posed so that is probably Joseph in the front of the storeroom/office. The house looks lovely.I did a bit of researching myself last night,it seems before the Gee family had the mill The Lawton Family had it.They lived in neston? and were a big farming family.
Celia
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Doggy
thats a wow from me.who's clever Boy/girl :-\ :-\ :) I looked at some maps as well ,but they were to small.I just downloaded the picture to see if i could enlarge it eough to see the name on the sign but it was to blurred.The last name is long enough to be Williamson and yes it looks like it could be Joseph with a middle initial cant read the bottom line. The photo is posed so that is probably Joseph in the front of the storeroom/office. The house looks lovely.I did a bit of researching myself last night,it seems before the Gee family had the mill The Lawton Family had it.They lived in neston? and were a big farming family.
Celia
Have you looked at the Tithe maps here
http://maps.cheshire.gov.uk/tithemaps/Default.aspx
You can display two maps for different periods side by side.
Martin Briscoe
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If you centre the left hand map on a property the select "Plot Details" on right hand side then it shows ownership as in
Township: Raby
Parish: Neston
Plot №: 186
Owner: EARL OF SHREWSBURY
Occupier: RICHARD GHEE
Plot Name: MILL HOUSE BUILDINGS GARDENS ETC
Land Use: -
Area: 1 acres, 1 roods, 38 perches
Notes: -
Township Parish Plot Landowner(s) Occupier(s) Plot Name Land Use Acres Roods Perches
Raby Neston 184 EARL OF SHREWSBURY RICHARD GHEE LAND AND ROAD 2 1 36 Map
Raby Neston 185 EARL OF SHREWSBURY RICHARD GHEE INCLOSURE 0 0 26 Map
Raby Neston 186 EARL OF SHREWSBURY RICHARD GHEE MILL HOUSE BUILDINGS GARDENS ETC 1 1 38 Map
Raby Neston 187 EARL OF SHREWSBURY RICHARD GHEE NEW FIELD 1 1 1 Map
Raby Neston 188 EARL OF SHREWSBURY RICHARD GHEE NEW FIELD 0 2 38 Map
Raby Neston 196 EARL OF SHREWSBURY RICHARD GHEE MILL DAM 5 0 2 Map
Raby Neston 202 EARL OF SHREWSBURY RICHARD GHEE BLAKELEY BROW 3 1 21 Map
I think that is 1846
Martin Briscoe
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Cheers Martin/Celia
Above and beyond the call of duty I'd say!
Celia, I'm definately a boy the last time I looked. (I've amended my profile now) ;)
Doggy
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Ghee ::) That explains why couldn't find him, I only looked for Gee :)
Celia
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Doggy
I don't know if you have ever seen a water mill,i have seen a few small maybe two story depending on what it was used for, in various parts of the country in years gone buy.The mill not in use of course :) but the water wheels were still bringing up the water(mostly for a tourist attraction) that would have worked the mechanism inside of the mill.Water mills were not really the sort of thing people would take photo's of,well not the English anyway :) as the wheel was on the side of what sometimes looked like a house.You wouldn't even know it was there because the water going through the wheel sounds just like a fast running river.I found the first website its Irish mills but they are the same thing. The second one is good as well ;)
http://www.iol.ie/~carigeen/mills.htm
http://www.ukmills.com/index.htm
I cant think what Raby Mill Milled would it have been corn :-\
Celia
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Hi Celia
Thanks for the websites, it's quite ironic you mentioning about a tourist attraction as I 've just found an entry in Kelly's Directory of 1902 page 594 under Thornton Hough, which shows the family (Joseph and two sons, Arthur & Frederick Joseph) running refreshment rooms and owning boats on Raby Mere?
On my G Grandfather marriage certificate in 1887 it shows Joseph as a retired Miller so it must have closed around that time.
The only watermill I've seen that I can remember is the Laxey Wheel on the Isle of Man.
Doggy
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Doggy
thank goodness for search rootschat or i would have been here till sunday ;D I could not remember who was researching Raby Water Mill and & Joseph Williamson.I found you first shot :) The reason i wanted to find you was to tell you that i went to the library to look for a book.I didn't find it ,but i found a small one about the aria of Raby.I gave it a quick flick through and found 2 page with 2 photo's and one sketch.The sketch is of the old water mill in Raby mere and the names Richard Gee & Joseph Williamson were mentioned.
Bells rang in my head then ;D There is also a later photo of the above building but shows the boats on the river. That building became a tea room.In case you didn't have this info or the photo's i scanned the two page out in the library if you are interested.
Celia
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running refreshment rooms and owning boats on Raby Mere?
Just read your last post ,November,looks like the boats on the river might be his and the man one of the sons :-\
Celia
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Doggy
thanks for the P.M have now sent the attachments i should have sent them on separate emails.They took ages to go,i hope they are not to big ::)
Celia P.S. I have looked at what i sent,it is to big, you can see the dots so make it smaller for a better picture
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Hi Celia
Great photos and sketch plus the info regarding the mill seems to comply with my findings which is also great news. Just one thing though, what was the name of the publication you obtained these from, or is it just a local study that somebody has put together for the library?
I have just discovered the postcard of the first photo in a box of old things at my dads. I'd love to know who the lady is holding the child. What is quite annoying is that there is no dates to the photos which would help tremendously.
Ah well you can't have everything, it's amazing how this little thread has developed.
Cheers again
Doggy
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What is quite annoying is that there is no dates to the photos which would help tremendously.
Funny you should say that because this morning i went back to library to borrow the book Beyond The bar, and took another look at that book, i turned the page and found some more photo dates included ;D.So 2 more pages to send,I will go and borrow it tomorrow in case anyone else want any photo's from it.I will send page 12/13 homeThese are in thier oridginal size.
Celia
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Doggy
Just one thing though, what was the name of the publication you obtained these from, or is it just a local study that somebody has put together for the library?
The book is Yesterdays wirral no 8 By Ian & Marilyn Boumphrey.One of many books written by the couple,apart from photo's of Raby/Raby Mere.It includes Thornton Hough,Willaston, Brimstage, & Storeton.
Celia
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Hi Celia
Just my luck, it appears that the Yesterdays Wirrall no 8 is out of print >:(
Doggy
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Doggy
did you get the other two pages? re felt a bit miffed :) you must have come under the heading & other kind Folk ;D
Celia
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Hi Celia
I haven't received the 2 pages at either e-mail address. I'm at work again now so if you would be kind enough to try again I would be really grateful.
Cheers
Doggy
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Doggy Pages 12/13 now gone to your work address.there are only those 4 Pages on Raby the next page is Thornton Hough. I wonder where the other post went :-\
Celia
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Doggy
I have just got my mail in for the first time today,been busy
There was a P.M from a member Watermill who joined this afternoon.Just to contact me she/he came across one my post to you probably.And is a good friend of the Wilkinson family that,says that one of the Wilkinson's was a stepson of a gee.How do i get you in contact with this member.I am not sure if they will be staying.I found it a bit exiting but you may know them I will P.M you the P.M if i can,if i cant i will put it on here.
Celia
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Watermill
I forgot to say Doggy cant P.M. you if needed, you need to have your post on the general board first.Thats why i have suggested you post on the board .You can P.M him though.WE all vote Board though dont we ;D ;D
Celia
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Hi Celia
I've been offline for a couple of days and I just picked up your PM and the one from Watermill. You're right, it is exciting ;D
I'll let you know what I find out if Watermill allows me.
Cheers
Doggy
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I love it when things like this happen to people i have helped
it gives me a zing ;D ;D
Celia
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http://www.20thcenturyimages.co.uk/trolleyed/14/49/1061/index.htm
Just thought how much the building in the photo at this link looks like the photo earlier in the massage.
http://www.20thcenturyimages.co.uk/trolleyed/index.html
John
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Hi John
Thanks for sending this, I had seen it before but I hadn't kept a copy, plus my new contact would probably like to see the photo. It is most definately the same view etc.
Cheers
Dave
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Hi My Great Great Great Grandfather Thomas Lawton had Raby water mill from at least 1838 till 1850 he died and then past it onto his daughter Martha Lawton, They also had Lawton cottage, the boating lake and tea rooms and was still living in Lawton cottage till 1932 or longer as my grandad lived there with my nan my dad and his brothers, the Lloyds. hope this helps you all.
Denise Lloyd :)
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Doggy,
The yesterdays wirral books come up quite often on ebay,no6 and no3 are on there at the moment so i'm sure no8 will come up shortly
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Hi Denise
I have only just seen your posting regarding the mill on Raby Mere and it's thrown up a few questions!
Did your Martha marry into the Williamson family by any chance? I've boxed all my research papers as I've just moved house. Thomas Lawton's death coincides with the Williamsons taking over the mill but did they just rent or obtain through marriage?
I'm sure one of the photos on here shows the tea rooms and it appears to say "Williamsons tea rooms".
I hope you will be able to solve this mystery.
Cheers
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Hi there
Martha Never Married she lived till 1932. aged 93. nobody in my family married into the williamson family. Lawton cottage was built by Thomas Lawton. My father used to take the money off customers who wanted to use the boats there when he was a child in the summer holidays. Williamsons had the Tea gardens and shop much later. My Grandad Percy Lloyd had a coal business next door for a while. If you go on google and look for Descendants of the Lawton family by Kevan Lloyd it will show you these dates. Kevan died so he has not updated or finished adding all our information on my Lloyd family. which i will be doing. if you have any photos you could send me that would be great. hope this is help full to you. i have a copy of thomas Lawtons will. please do not hesitate to ask me for any information.
kind regards
Denise Lloyd
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Hi Doggy,
I appreciate that I am replying to an old post but get this, My nan and her sister were Sybil and Freda Williamson, Sybil was later to marry Joseph Harold Speed (my grandad) the Williamson's had the mere and the cottage with the water mill where Auntie Bub lived, now I am not sure if this was my mums auntie bub or my nan's to be honest but I spent most of my time down there on the mere and in the water mill cottage around 1969 until the boats were taken of the water years later, I also think that they owned the cottage/Farm up on the hill to the right of the mere which had swing boats at the rear of the cottage where I worked for a few pence a day at one point, my job was taking the money for a few minutes of fun, I think it was two new pence per ride after decimalisation! They also owned a big old house further up the road, past the mere and turn first left, the back garden of which had a private path leading back down to the watermill. Auntie Bub put me to work in the shop for a short while, this was situated just through the gates to the mill and immediately on the right, selling ice cream and sweets, I didn't get paid but I could have an ice cream whenever I wanted one, and as we seemed to have longer better summers then it was worth every penny. My Nan (Sybil) interestingly enough was born in the upstairs bedroom of the seven stars pub in Thornton Hough which her father also owned or ran at some point. Can't remember much else to be fair other than not having to pay for rowing boats and the putt putt motor boats that old man Williamson used to preside over.
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Hi Simon
Many thanks for the post as it gives me much more of an insight into that side of my family. You mention old man Williamson, what was his name? It would help me tremendously with my family research. Also, your auntie Bub - what was her proper name? Hope you don't mind me asking.
Cheers
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Hi Doggy,
I don't mind at all, problem is, that is all I really knew them as, Sybil Speed (Williamson) my nan passed away in 1999 along with my mum three days later so unless my older brothers can remember I may not be able to answer much more, however, my nan and Freda Williamson lived in the same sheltered accommodation in Bebington and I believe Freda is still alive, I lost touch with her after my nan died and her family started looking after her, I'll see what I can find out.