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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cambridgeshire => Topic started by: CAROLYNDERRY on Saturday 05 January 08 16:13 GMT (UK)
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Hi is anyone researching the Cornwells from Bottisham. There seems to be an awful lot of them and not all seem to be related although i'm sure they probably if i can get back far enough.
i have been on various sites but am unable to get some specific dates.
does anyone have any info on george cornwell who married mary morley
george was born in 1852 and mary c1855
they had 16 children of whom i have all their names but no dates of birth except my direct relative arthur fred who i have all his details.
mary and george were married in march 1875
i also have details of georges parents and sibling but again no specific dates
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Hi
Have you tried these websites for Cambridgshire
http://www.cambridgeshire.gov.uk/community/bmd/camdex
http://www.cfhs.org.uk/Search.html
Or you could ask on here for what you are looking for, with some names and dates
regards
ricky :)
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thanks
have tried both of these sites
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Harry Cornwell
Surname: CORNWELL
Forename: Harry
Year of Birth: 1884
Reference: 331/BOT/11/401
have you got that one
ricky
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hi ricky
i do have harrys name but didn't have a definite birth date, do you have anything else regarding harry? is he part of your family tree??
thanks for the info
carolyn
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Carolyn -
If it's definite birth dates you want, then you have two choices. Either use the Camdex database, which is based on local records, as Ricky has suggested and has already given you the link for.
OR use FreeBMD to hook up the 16 children from the census returns to the registration quarters.
Using the 1881 - 1901 census returns provides names for all the children and gives them approximate birth years.
Now just look them up on Camdex or on FreeBMD. Camdex will give you a year, FreeBMD gives the quarter.
To get exact birth dates, you will need to buy their birth certs, either from Camdex or via the GRO certificate ordering service at http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
Not cheap! However, if you can be satisfied with a probable quarter of birth rather than an exact date, the FreeBMD data is good enough unless there is possibility of confusion - in which case you DO need the cert to sort out which one is "yours".
For instance, here are the three eldest children:
Births Sep 1875: CORNWELL George William Newmarket 3b 544
Births Mar 1877: Cornwell David Newmarket 3b 571
Births Jun 1878: Cornwell Alice Mary Newmarket 3b 579
There are no duplicate names, so the above are almost certainly the children you are seeking.
Between 1801-1837, the other site Ricky gave you will provide baptisms from the Cambs FHS database. There are 27 baptisms for Cornwells in Bottisham, and 67 in total for all variants of the name.
From the census returns, it looks as if George Cornwell b about 1853 who married Mary Ann Morley was the son of Isaac Cornwell b about 1817 and Rebecca.
Here's a likely marriage for Isaac and Rebecca from FreeBMD:
Marriages Jun 1839
CORNWELL Isaac Chesterton 14 69
PAPWORTH Rebekah Chesterton 14 69
The Cambs FSH baptism index will show you that Isaac was baptised in 1819 in Little Wilbraham (just a couple of miles from Bottisham) and was the son of James Cornell and Sarah of Little Wilbraham. There was another Isaac baptised in 1814, but searching the Cambs FHS burial database will show you that he died the same year.
With a name like Cornwell, you have to be alive to all manner of variations in the spelling of the name.
There are masses of online records - Cambs is covered better than many counties because of the Cambs FHS indexes of baptisms and burials 1801-1837, and the Camdex index to the LOCAL registers, although this is not yet complete. The Cambs marriage index is also not yet complete, and doesn't tie up brides and grooms, but is still a useful resource available for a small sum on CD from Cambs FHS.
But the trick is to be able to link up all the different resources to build your story. As I have suggested above, get the children from the census, find their birth registrations. The certificates will give you the names of their parents if you want confirmation of the census data. Then find the marriage certificate for the parents which will take you back another generation by providing father's names for bride and groom. And so on - untill you get back beyond 1837, or in the case of Cambs for baptisms/burials, 1801. Then you need parish records. If your village is covered, get the CD of the PRs from the FHS. My forbears are Isleham folk for generations - the CD of the Isleham parish records was a godsend.
No-one's going to have all the data on your family to hand to you on a plate - it actually does take quite a lot of work! And a bit of money too - I find a UK sub to Ancestry absolutely essential, and have invested vast amounts in GRO certificates. Luckily, FreeBMD is totally free, as it says, and FreeREG is slowly providing a similar service for parish records. The IGI database at www.familysearch.com is free to use and is a wonderful source of information, although member contributed entries need taking with a large amount of salt. :)
If you just want to link up with other members of your family and share their data rather than doing the nitty gritty yourself, why not try Genes Reunited? A quick search shows an Isaac and a George of the correct ages in other people's trees. Might be worth a try?
Personally I prefer to do my own digging about and make my own links. Genes Reunited can often be the lowest common denominator, with many people making all the same errors....
Good hunting....
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hi ricky
i do have harrys name but didn't have a definite birth date, do you have anything else regarding harry? is he part of your family tree??
thanks for the info
carolyn
Hi Carolyn
No connection to my family for any of the Cornwell's, just trying to help you out. I think wdurham, has found quite a few for you, some could be reg under Newmarket, as Bottisham is inbetween Cambridge and Newmarket
regards
ricky
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hi ricky
thats great, thanks for taking the time out to help me out. it is appreciated.
i have actually taken quite a lot of time trying to figure family links through camdex, free bmd and freecen. when i startedthere was very little included on the free sites for cambs. maybe what i should be doing is re starting now there is more info available.
many thanks again
carolyn
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Hi Carolyn
Your welcome, I used to go to the Cambridge archives, but dont get in there very often now, but wish you luck with your research.
regards
ricky
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Carolyn -
A correction to my guess at parents for Isaac Cornwell - James & Sarah Cornell of Little Wilbraham DID baptise an Isaac in 1819, but he is with them in 1841 and 1851 in Little Wilbraham.
Whereas "your" Isaac and Rebecca are in Bottisham for both censuses, with their children.
So the two cannot be the same man, although the son of James & Sarah is the only Cornell/Cornwell visible in the Cambs Baptism Index.
Sorry about that!
Wendy
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no probs, i also thought that that was the same isaac until i delved into census records as it is only isaac listed. will have to keep going onthat one.
thanks
carolyn
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Hi, Carolyn
The IGI has Bottisham well covered and no sign of an Isaac around 1817. He's not in the Cambs FHS baptism index either.
Though I note that Isaac and Rebecca baptised nearly all of their children on the same day - 6 May 1855. Maybe the family were just careless about baptisms? I have a similar situation with my Armstrongs in Ravensden - children baptised in large batches, and if one was away or busy elsewhere on the day, he/she just didn't get "done".
Alternatively, perhaps Isaac was not his first name, or the name with which he was baptised?
You may have to send for the 1839 marriage certificate to find out who Isaac's father was.
Wendy
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thanks for that
i will have to send for it i think as i am running out of other ideas.
i seem to have a family that appear and disappear at odd times
carolyn
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A lot of that may be the name, Carolyn.
I have Cornhills from Kent, and a friend has Cornhills in Devon and Portsea. We believe the two families are linked, although no proof found as yet. However we have found family members under every conceivable variant of the name - often children of the same parents have different spellings of the name. I have a family with four sons born in Oare to William and Elizabeth Cornhill, and the sons all have a different variant spelling. In Devon, one family has its earlier children correctly labelled, but the rest are Cornwalls. Anything from Cornel to Cornwill to Cornwall and so on....
Intriguingly, one of the several circumstantial reasons why we believe the Devon and Kent Cornhills are linked is the sudden cropping up in the early/mid 1800s of the name Lewis/Louis. When you check there are precious few with that name under any of the surname variants. and your Louis/Lewis Cornwell - son of Isaac and Rebecca - is one of only about 6 or 7.
Pure coincidence? Almost certainly - but still interesting just as a curiosity!
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Hi Carolyn
I am new to Roots.chat and have just found your listing about the Cornwells of Bottisham.
I too have the name of Cornwell in my family tree and they were living in Bottisham Lode.
My great x 3 grandfather Philip Cornwell was born about 1799 and married Ann Arber. Their children were Emma, Levi, William, Charles, Elijah, Uriah, Zillah and John born between 1826 to 1847. It is through Emma, their eldest daughter, that my family tree grows. She married Richard Rayment, another Bottisham name, and it was their son who moved away from the village and agriculture to live in the North East and work in industry.
I have not pursued the whereabouts of any of Emma's brothers and sisters but who knows, there may be a connection ............
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hi
thanks for your reply. i think your cornwells well may be related as i have come across these names before. i havent found a direct link as yet but will keep you informed if i do
carolyn
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hi
i now have isaac and rebekahs marriage certificate but doesnt really help very much.
isaacs father was Wm, presumably William occupation-dead
rebekahs father also Wm also dead
witnesses were samuel cornwell possibly a brother????
and ann osler
i cant find a samuel who also has a father called william or a death for william that may fit
has anyone any further suggestions where i go from here?
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Bear in mind that it wasn't unknown for someone illegitimate to make up a father's name for appearances' sake
David
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There is one Samuel, b in Bottisham, in the Cambs FHS Baptisms:
1818 CORNWELL Samuel H. - Bottisham Lode s. of John & Elizabeth, Bottisham
About the same age as the mystery Isaac, so perhaps a cousin?
I have found a William and Mary producing children in Bottisham at about the right time (Robert 1813, Charlotte 1815 and Elizabeth) 1816. There is also a William and Sarah, but a bit late (William 1833, Sarah B 1836). William and Anne, but they were much earlier around 1801, and seemed to favour the job lot baptism. And William and Alice, (Ann 1818, John 1820, Eliza 1822, Josiah 1825).
There just is not an Isaac (apart from the Wilbraham boy who we have counted out for good reasons) baptised in Cambs and listed on the Cambs FHS baptisms. Let alone an Isaac son of William!
I can't find a burial for a likely William, either.
So perhaps non-conformist or Catholic?
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thanks for all your continued support and help
this may be a total stab in the dark but i tried looking up ann osler also cited as a witness on the marriage certificate and found an isaac cornwall ostler on the family search website . he was baptised en masse in 1822--correct timing His father was william ostler and mother mary(no surname). on familysearch the ostler was bracketed-any idea what that means?????
am i barking up the wrong tree
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Hi, Carolyn -
The bracketing is just a means of distinguishing surnames, as far as I am aware. Some conventions use CAPS, others use forward slashes. Parts of the IGI use the angle brackets as in Horningsea.
I have been poking around over this as well - it's very like a situation I have in my own family, where we have all the evidence for the existence and life of a William Armstrong, but have never found a baptism. Also, I am still wondering about the Louis/Lewis connection with my Kent/Hampshire Cornhills, so have a definite interest in this problem!
I also looked up Ann Osler - though I didn't find Isaac Cornwall Ostler like you. However, the link with Horningsea might make sense of this rather confusing entry from Cambs Banns:
16 Jun 1839 Groom Isaac CORNWALL condition widr residence otp Bride Rebecca PIPER condition sp residence of Hornsey, Parish Bottisham, CAM
Now we know that the name of Isaac's wife was not Piper but Papworth. You have the marriage cert, and if more proof were needed, Papworth was used as the middle name for one of the sons. But this entry is for Banns to be read in Bottisham, presumably with info given to the vicar verbally, whilst the marriage took place in the bride's parish, so it could be an error. Oddly, the marriage of Isaac and Rebekah does not appear on the IGI, nor is it in the Cambs Marriage Index which I have on CD - the Banns entry from 1839 in Bottisham is there, but not the actual marriage. Where does the marriage cert actually say it took place? And what's the exact marriage date - do these banns refer to the Cornwell/Papworth marriage?
I did piece together a chronology from the various info in the Cambs Burials, Banns, Marriages and Baptisms, plus census info and the IGI, as follows:
Marriages: (Cambs Marriages - FFHS at family history Online, also on IGI and Cambs Marriage Index)
9 Feb 1836
Groom Isaac CORNWELL, otp
Bride Sarah (x) LOUGHTS (or LOFTS), otp
by banns
Witnesses John (x) WHITE, Susannah LOFTS, Ann ARBER,Parish Bottisham, CAM
Baptism: (Cambs Baptisms - FFHS at family history Online - also on the IGI see below)
27 Aug 1838
William Lofts CORNWELL son of Isaac & Sarah, Lode, Father Occupation lab
Notes PB (private baptism???) Parish Bottisham
Burial: (NBI - FFHS at family history Online)
Sarah CORNWELL Date 14 Sep 1838 Aged 24 Place Bottisham Description Holy Trinity
(Looks like she died of the birth?)
Banns: (Cambs Banns - FFHS at family history Online, and Cambs Marriage Index)
16 Jun 1839
Groom Isaac CORNWALL condition widr residence otp
Bride Rebecca PIPER condition sp residence of Hornsey, Parish Bottisham, CAM
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1851 Census:
Lode Street, Bottisham
Isaac 34, b Bottisham
Rebecca 36, b Westwick
william 12
Lewis 9
Ann 4
Robert 1
All children b Bottisham
IGI: children of Isaac and Sarah
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Re: your Isaac Cornwall Ostler:
There is an entry for an Isaac Osler b 1818 in Horningsea, wife Louisa, and two children, Henry and Lettice in 1851. In 1852 the family emigrated to Australia - perhaps part of the Victoria goldrush?
See:
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/search/PRF/individual_record.asp?recid=310922315&lds=2®ion=-1®ionfriendly=&frompage=99
and then I found this on the Victoria Public Record Office Site:
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There are two marriages for Isaac Osler in Chesterton District (which covers Horningsea) one in 1843 possibly to Martha Read, and one in 1846 possibly to Louisa Bradwell - which ties up with the Pedigree Resource File and the Persian passenger list.
If this is Isaac Cornwall Ostler, then that would rule him out, as Isaac and Rebecca are alive and kicking in Bottisham in 1851 and thereafter, and not taking part in the Victoria Gold Rush!
So no closer to who Isaac was. All I can think is that Isaac was not his baptismal name OR he wasn't baptised OR he was illegitimate and baptised with his mother's surname. Even then, all the Isaacs in the Bottisham batches on the IGI seem to have fathers....
I also did some stuff on Williams, see the next post...
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...continued from previous post!
On Isaac's marriage cert, he says his father is William, deceased. As I said, I did find some Williams producing children in the right period in Bottisham. But none of them had an Isaac.
Here are the results of my labours:
Wives and Children of William Cornwells in Bottisham contemporary with Isaac's birth year of 1816-1818:
Unknown Female:
CORNWELL William 1812 Bastardy - Father - Poor Law Papers (Entry on the CAMDEX archive database)
26 May 1812
Groom William CORNWALL otp
Bride Mary (x) BENSTEAD otp
by banns
Witnesses George (x) BICHENO, Samuel STUBBING, John BENSTEAD, James (x) HART Notes witness 5 Elizabeth FULLER (x) Parish Bottisham, CAM
Possible children found for the above marriage:
ROBERT CORNWALL - s/o William Cornwall & Mary Benstead
Christening: 12 SEP 1813 Bottisham, Cambridge, England
CHARLOTTE CORNELL d/o William Cornell & Mary
Gender: Female Christening: 12 MAR 1815 Bottisham, Cambridge, England
ELIZABETH CORNELL - d/o William Cornell & Mary
Gender: Female Christening: 16 JUN 1816 Bottisham, Cambridge, England
Marriage:
3 Dec 1816
Groom William (x) CORNWELL otp
Bride Alice HUNT otp
by banns
Witnesses John RAYMENT, Mary FITCH, Parish Bottisham, CAM
Possible children found for the above marriage:
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For some time the team of Copyright Editors has been removing breaches of copyright and sending detailed personal messages to the member that had posted the information. Due to the volume of posts and members this is now impractical. Messages in breach will simply be deleted and this notice posted. We apologise for any inconvenience caused but are sure you will appreciate the importance of this issue.
However, William and Alice were still both alive in 1841, (and still producing children!) whereas Isaac said his father William was dead in 1939. Alice is a widow by 1851.
Another William is here:
Married 21 Oct 1846
Groom William CORNWELL aged full condition widr occupation farmer residence otp
Bride Ruth (x) GOODWIN aged full condition wid residence otp
by banns
Groom father Holmes – occupation farmer
Bride father William CHAMBERLAIN - occupation lab
Witnesses William WALLING, Lucy WHALLING, Parish Bottisham, CAM
In 1841 the above william is 52, previous wife Sarah aged 49, two children, William 8 and Sarah 5
In 1851 he is 62, with two children William 17 and Sarah 14. New wife Ruth is also 62, b Swavesey.
Again, not dead at the time of Isaac's marriage.
The only other William baptising kids in Bottisham was a bit too early: he and his wife Ann baptised a raft of children in 1801 and 1802 - John, Mary A, Philip, William and Sarah. Though these appear on the Cambs Baptisms Index, they aren't in the IGI batches? Strange. But he does seem to have been dead by 1839! Or at least, isn't in the 1841 census.
So i shall now go off and pursue Louis/Lewis, having gone as far as I can with Isaac and William.
Hope you can get something out of all of this....
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phew
what can i say but thankyou very very much for your hard work
where do you get all the details from????
i hadn't even considered the "cormak" name in 1841 so didn't have that info.
on isaac and rebekah marriage cert. it has been left blank but the reistrar has put in a note saying they would expect it to say 'parish of horningsea in the county of cambridge'
marriage took place on 24/06/1839
i did have the info re marriage to sarah lofts/loughts and her death at the same time that william was born but you have given me some further details that i didn't have,so thanks for that
good luck with your louis/lewis
carolyn
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No problem, Carolyn - most enjoyable!
But bear in mind it's all circumstantial, dug up from the various online sources available - you'd need to do some pretty heavy checking to find the proper evidence.
With the census info, I have found to my cost that Cornhill/Cornwell is usually very badly mistranscribed, so mostly I search, where the first name is not too common, just on first names, spouse first names, parents first names etc plus an approx date of birth and a birthplace or birth county. You get a lot of entries, but usually the one you want is in there- as with Carmak!
It does look as if those Banns from 14 Jun 1839 are the right ones, even though they have the girl's surname wrong. The marriage was just a few days later, and was in Horningsea - misspelled by the Bottisham vicar as Hornsey. I did check - there isn't a Hornsey in Cambs!
Sadly, even after all that, we still don't know who Isaac was....other than the son of a William, perhaps. As David has pointed out, what's on the certificate is only what the registrar was told, and need not be the truth!
Good hunting. 8-)
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Hi mig
i have been researching other cornwells in bottisham to try and establish a link with my cornwells. i have a phillip who married an ann but i have ann ayres. i do have an ann arber but she married a william. i may be wrong but just need to check it out. how positive are you re your info?
look forward to hearing from you soon
carolyn
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Hi Carolyn
Whoops! I got my Ayres mixed up with my Arbers. ???
Yes, Philip Cornwell married Ann Ayres and it was Philip's mum Ann who appears to be an Arber and married a William Cornwell. I believe it is this William that wdurham mentions who has a handful of his children baptised at the same time - my Philip amongst them.
I have known about the Arber connection for quite a long time now - before sites like Ancestry and local record offices came on line. A kind person living in the Cambridge area visited the local record office in Cambridge for me. Since then other on-line sources have 'confirmed' the Arber name.
Sometimes I think I should always make a note of where information comes from. Do others?
Anyway sorry about the confusion with the Annes.
Also, just to confirm about poor transcribing: I had the Philip Cornwell entry in the 1841 Census photocopied for me by the above kind person at the Cambridge Record Office before easy on-line sources were available. A few years later when I tried to find this entry on-line on the Ancestry site there was nothing, yet I knew the entry existed. After many thwarted attempts and frustration reaching fever pitch, I also hit on the idea of entering the more uncommon christian name rather than a surname and lo and behold up came an entry for 'Cormak' - it was my Philip and family. I have used this strategy many times now - just as wdurham describes in his reply. Oh the satisfaction when you know you have discovered some information that has eluded you for a long time.
Cheers
Mig
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no probs. this is really sending me around in circles too.
i have been trying to source who may have been my isaac father so have tried to reserch all cornwells in the bottisham area. william and anne arber also had a son william who could be a contender for this but i'm not sure who he married.
i have also narrowed it down to a possible edmund who married elizabeth ?maiden name who had a william baptised on 15/07/1798-since their children were baptised at different times i'm assuming this was more or less when he was born
do you have any further info re above cornwells?
i am really guessing at a lot of this,trying to prove it is difficult
carolyn
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Sorry Carolyn,
my information on people other then Philip and his direct line is very very limited. The only William I know of is the one you mention plus Philip's own son william baptised 1831.
Don't give up, you'll get there. Information can come out of the blue when you least expect it.
Mig
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Carolyn,
There's a Mary Anne Cornwell who is the daughter of William Cornwell and Ann Arber who married a William Orslar on 30 December 1816 in Bottisham. The IGI for this is batch number M134102. Could this be the Ann Osler who was a witness on your Isaac and Rebecca's marriage certificate, or possibly her daughter? If your Isaac was the son of William Cornwell and Ann Arber that would make Mary Ann Orsler Isaac's sister.
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i have done quite a lot of research myself and have found some definite relationships of the people you mentioned. i can pass on these to you if you want them
carolyn
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Thanks, Carolyn, but they're not my ancestors, I found them in passing through, as it were!
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Thanks, Carolyn, but they're not my ancestors, I found them in passing, as it were!
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Having found, as I expected several links to my mother's family, Ayres/ Cornwell/ Rayment/Arber in one quick scan of this posting, and having started some other postings particularly regarding Ayres/Cornwell etc in Bottisham I am considering when the transcription of the Bottisham register has been completed by Cambridge FHS an attempt on trying to produce trees for the commoner surnames in the village from this transcription. Probably like climbing Everest without oxygen only harder!! One or two observations: There are medieval records for Bottisham from before the parish registers, certainly worth a look to see how far back surnames can be traced!,But probably impossible to link. There are many variants of the surname Cornwell, but I was not aware of Cornwall, if this is correct, then the name is ancient! One a more recent note, Jack Cornwell the WW1 VC was the first cousin of Samuel Ayres (my maternal grandfather) through his mother, Elizabeth Cornwell who married James Ayres at Newmarket Q4 1867, Just in time as my grandfather was bFeb 1868.So well worth looking at Newmarket.I believe there are at least twelve interconnected surnames in a great intermarrying spiral.
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Hi Carolyn,
Just read your thread regarding the cornwells of 2008/9 and wonder if you are still pursuing this investigation.
I am David Cornwells grand daughter , second son of George Cornwell and I personally knew George and several of the brothers and sisters. I am 79 . I do have a photograph of George somewhere in my mothers old albums (she died in 2007 aged 100) . George was well into his 90's when he died and at that time was living with Lily and Morley (real name Frank Morley one of the brothers) at "Shanklin", High st, Bottisham). I spent time with him, as most of our holidays when I was little
was in Bottisham and Newmarket.
Perhaps we can learn from each other.
Look forward to hearing from you.
Jean Sharp.
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Hi
all of you Cornwell researchers, does any one have a Elisheba in their family tree born 16th Feb 1834, she married William Webb in 1856 they are my gt gt grandad and gt gt grandmother.
Paul Webb
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Yes, I have Elisheba Cornwell in my tree; she was one of 10 children of William Cornwell (1789-1875) and Alice (b1801), and had 7 brothers and 2 sisters. I can take the line back to William Cornwell (b1725) and Elizabeth Holmes (b c1725).Though I was unaware of this Webb connection I have a William Webb, husband of Ann Richardson (married c 1769) the parents of Susannah Webb (b1771) who was one (or is it 2?) of my 3XGGrand mothers. Please send me a pm and I will do my best to supply any information you need.
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Dear Carol,
I believe that you were interested in the birthdates of the children of George Cornwell and Mary Morley. In 1971, I went to Bottisham Lode and the Vicar at the time allowed me to look at the parish records of Bottisham and also Lode, Bottisham. I am the descendant of Holmes Cornwell and Elizabeth Day. I copied all the Cornwell references in order to find my relatives.
My records from the original records of Bottisham, Cambridgeshire state the following baptismal dates for chidren of George and Mary Ann Cornwell: Sept. 5, 1875 for George William; Jan. 7, 1877 for David; Apr. 21, 1878 for Alice Mary; Jan. 22, 1880 for Frederick; Feb. 6, 1881 for Arthur Frederick; Mar. 4, 1883 for Robert Oliver; Mar. 7, 1886 for Ada May; Oct 2, 1889 for Kate; Apr. 21, 1889 for Ernest ( It is noted that they are both 1889); Dec. 7, 1890 for Lottie Maud; June 12, 1892 for Stanley; Feb. 11, 1894 for Frank Motley (born Dec. 20, 1893); Dec. 25, 1899 for Alice (born Oct. 3, 1898); Oct. 7, 1900 for Algeron (born Apr. 26, 1900) and Feb. 21, 1903 for Bertie Rose.
The marriage record is in Bottisham, Cambrigeshire was Mar. 4, 1875 between George Cornwell age 21 and son of Isaac Cornwell and Mary Ann Morley age 18, daughter of William Morley. The marriage of Arthur Frederick Cornwell age 19, son of George Cornwell and Lucy Jane Hiner, age 17, and daughter of Robert Hiner was on July 28, 1900. The marriage of Robert Oliver Cornwell, age 21, son of George Cornwell and Alice Mary Ris, age 24, daughter of John Ris was on Sept. 2, 1903.
Burial records of Bottisham show Frederick Cornwell buried Nov. 9, 1880, age 1 year, residence Bottisham.
Baptism records of Bottisham also show Sept. 21, 1902 for Arthur Robert Cornwell, son of Arthur Frederick and Lucy Jane Cornwell, May 16, 1904 for Geneva Annie, daughter of Arthur Frederick and Lucy Jane Cornwell, and Dec. 8, 1935 for Anthony Bujan, son of Stanley and Ada Florence Cornwell.
Do you know the name of the parents of Isaac Cornwell?
Looking forward to hearing from you. I am always interested in completing the Cornwell family history.
Karen.
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Hi KarenRuth
I am descendant of Holmes Cornwell aswell.
My Grandfather`s family are all originally from Bottisham.
My Great Grandfather Absolom Cornwell was John Travers Cornwell VC Uncle.
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Dear acr8574
I am happy to be in contact with another descendant of Holmes Cornwell and Elizabeth Day. I am descended from their son, John Day Cornwell, and Sarah West.
John Day and Sarah (West) Cornwell had a son, George Cornwell, baptized Mar. 26, 1820 in Bottisham Lode, Camb. George Cornwell married Harriet Beard on Sept. 22, 1842 in Bottisham Lode, Camb. Harriet Beard, baptized Mar. 3, 1822 in Bottisham Lode, Camb., was the daughter of Matthew and Ann (Hancock) Beard. George and Harriet (Beard) Cornwell had a son, Walter Cornwell. Walter Cornwell, born Nov. 9, 1842 Bottisham Lode, Camb., came to America. He married Mary Anna Long, born Dec. 18, 1846 in Hook, Chardstock, Dorset, Eng. Walter and Mary Anna (Long) Cornwell were my great great grandparents. I live in the Kansas City area of Kansas, United States.
I would like to know how Absalom Cornwell fits into the family. I am also interested in the predecessors of Holmes Cornwell and Elizabeth Day.
In 1981, I published a book, "The Cornwell Family History: In England and the United States." I hand carried a copy to the Society of Genealogists in London. Since then, I have been in contact with our relatives in Australia and other relatives in England.
Do you live in England, the United States or Australia?
Your cousin, Karen
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Hi Karen
I'm in England,my Mother was a Cornwell before she married my Father.
Holmes Cornwell born in 1764 is my 4 x Great Grandfather.
My Grandfather was Albert E Cornwell born 1899 and his Father was Absolom Cornwell.
You said you wrote a book,is it available here in the UK?
Finally I get to chat to one of my distant relatives! :)
If you would like to send me a private message we could exchange email addresses and stay in touch.
Regards
Andrew
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Hi Karen, Yet another cousin in contact :) You asked the parents of Isaac Cornwell, Isaac (b1886 Lode) was the son of Israel Cornwell(b1862 Lode) and Elizabeth(b1861). Israel was the son of Charles Cornwell and Emma Hancock, and the grandson of Phillip Cornwell and Ann Ayres. Ann was the daughter of my 3XGG parents , John Ayres and Susannah Webb, who have been mentioned before in this thread. I also have another Isaac Cornwell (b1817 Bottisham) but have no information on file about his antecedents, I believe his age was taken from the census. If I can help further please let me know. My grandfather Samuel Ayres (b1868) was the first cousin of Jack Cornwell VC.
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Dear Redroger,
I am so glad that you have responded to my posting. I noted that you stated on March 9, 2012 that you were descended from William Cornwell and Elizabeth Holmes both born around 1725. I asked about the parents of Isaac Cornwell because I was trying to link him to my predecessor, Holmes Cornwell, who married Elizabeth Day on July 11, 1786 in Bottisham Lode, Camb. I would like to trace back my Holmes Cornwell but I have run into a roadblock that perhaps you can help me with. The Holmes Cornwell that married Elizabeth Day had a will proved by his son, John Cornwell, on Sept. 23, 1837. This will was on page 335 of Liber O of the Consistory Court of Ely. This meant to me that Holmes Cornwell was deceased by Sept. 23, 1837. However, there was also a Holmes Cornwell that died in June, 1840 in Newmarket, Camb.--this is per "Geni" on a computer search. This means there were at least two Holmes Cornwell's in the same period. It is tempting to believe that the Holmes Cornwell baptized on Jan. 29, 1764 at St. Andrew the Less, Camb., son of William and Elizabeth Cornwell is the Holmes Cornwell that married Elizabeth Day, but I do not know how to prove it. In addition, there is a William Cornwell that married Elizabeth Holmes on Apr. 1, 1754 at St. Vigor, Fulborn. Since the maiden name of Elizabeth Holmes is Holmes, it is likely that she named her son, Holmes, but again it could be Holmes deceased by 1837 or Holmes deceased by 1840. To complicate matters more, there was a William Cornwell of Fulbourn that married Elizabeth Tyrrel at St. Andrew the Great in 1756--another possible set of parents for either Holmes,d. 1837 or Holmes, d. 1840.
To respond to arc8574: The book I wrote should be available in the Society of Genealogists in London since I gave them a copy. Otherwise the only way to get access to the book is to purchase a book from me. I will try to send you a private message with more information.
I have alot of information about Phillip Cornwell, d. Nov. 25, 1888, and Ann Ayres ( married June 16, 1822, Bottisham Lode, Camb.) I do not know how or if Phillip is related to Holmes Cornwell that married Elizabeth Day. Their children, John, baptized Mar. 24, 1869; Emma, baptized Mar. 30, 1828; William, baptized July 25, 1830; Charles baptized Feb. 19, 1837; Elijah, baptized Feb. 19, 1837; Ellis baptized Feb. 19, 1837 and Levi born (not baptized) about 1829. I could provide more information, but you may already have it all. I got this information by looking at the Bottisham church records. I do have that Israel, (son of Charles Cornwell, widow, age 24, and Emma Hancock, age 21, married Oct. 30, 1857) was baptized May 4, 1873 along with two siblings. Israel, age 24, married Elizabeth Mayes, age 25, on Sept. 19, 1885 in Bottisham Lode.
I hope that you will be able to help me trace the parents of Holmes Cornwell, that married Elizabeth Day.
Karen
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Karen, I have sent you a personal message giving some details. Hope the system works and you are allowed to receive them after three postings.If you can pm or email me the information about Phillip's descendants I would be very grateful. Interested in a copy of your book too please!
There are so many of us on this site all researching the same families in the vicinity of Cambridge that I think it might be worthwhile if we collaborated formally or informally to try to make the information more easily available and to avoid duplication of effort, or is someone already doing this? What do others think?
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Checking that information I found I have Levi born 30 March 1828. I think the multiple baptisms and the absence of a baptism for Levi might be related to the fact that some of the extended family, including my own part were Baptists, who only perform adult baptisms by total immersion. Possibly this part of the family were uncertain as to which persuasion to follow, and changed to Cof E and had their children baptised as a batch.Which 2 of his siblings were baptised with Israel please?
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Hi Karen
i am wondering if my line of cornwells is in your line William Cornwell married Alice Hunt they are my 3x grt grand parents. They had eight children one of them Elisheba born 1834 Married William Webb ( my direct line )
do you have these Cornwells in your line. By the way I still live in Lode
Paul
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Dear Paul,
I am excited to be in contact with someone from Lode. In 1971, I spent time in Bottisham and Lode. The Vicar David D. Billings allowed me to examine the church records of Bottisham and Lode. I was 19 years old at the time. I knocked on doors of "Cornwell's" in Bottisham and Lode to try to trace my Cornwell family. One family was particularly gracious and helped me locate various relatives--they had a little girl named Sarah. That Cornwell family, however, I could not link to my family.
My great great grandfather, Walter Cornwell, was the sister to Priscilla, also known as Zillah, who married William Mossup Rayment on Jan. 6, 1870. Their children were William, Ruth who married Robert John Hiner, Jack, and Walter.
I have not been able to link Holmes Cornwell that married Elizabeth Day with your William Cornwell that married Alice Hunt. However, I have in the past been in contact with other Cornwell relatives that are related to you. In 1987, someone of Cambridge wrote me. I do not know if he is still living or interested in family history. However, he wrote the following information. William Cornwell married Nov. 3, 1789 to Ann Arber who was baptized May 21, 1769 in Bottisham. Ann Arber was the daughter of William Arber and Ann Arber. William Arber was baptized 1731 and was the son of John Arbor (not Arber) and Mabel Richmond. John Arbor was baptized 1714. One of the children of William Cornwell and Ann Arber was William Cornwell, baptized June 1, 1801 in Bottisham. This William Cornwell married Alice Hunt. Other children of William Cornwell and Ann Arber were John, baptized June 1, 180l also and married Elizabeth Harrison; Mary Ann baptized June 1, 1801 also; Philip, baptized June 1, 180l married Ann Ayres; and Sarah. baptized Nov. 7, 1802. The Cambridge correspondent has traced his wife's side downwards through Philip Cornwell and Ann Ayres, who were married June 16, 1822. Philip Cornwell died Nov. 25, 1888. I have additional information on the descendants of Philip and Ann (Ayres) Cornwell.
I have from the church records that William Cornwell married Alice Hunt on Mar. 3, 1816 in Bottisham. Their children were John, born July 30, 1820; Eliza, baptized Dec. 29, 1822; Josiah, baptized Jan. 16, 1825; David born Mar. 12, 1829; Sarah, born Oct. 21, 1830; Elishaba, born Feb. 16, 1834. These children were all in Lode records. The above correspondent also stated that William Cornwell and Alice Hunt had children Ann, born 1824; and Israel born 1840. The married of their daughter, Elisheba Cornwell, 24, and William Webb, 25, was Jan. 21, 1858 in Bottisham. William Webb was stated to be a carpenter and his father, William Webb, was a wheelwright.
It seems to me that we should be able to sort out the various Cornwell lines and perhaps find a common ancestor. I do not know what information you have and what you are interested in. Please let me know.
I am interested in proving that my Holmes Cornwell that married Elizabeth Day was the Holmes Cornwell that was baptized Jan. 29, 1764 in Cambridge St. Andrew the Less. Since I know there was a Holmes Cornwell that died June , 1840, Newmarket, Cambrige, in addition to the Holmes Cornwell (died by Sept. 23, 1837) that married Elizabeth Day, I can't be sure which Holmes is mine. Is there a way to find out the age of the Holmes Cornwell that died June, 1840?
Looking forward to your comments. Karen
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Interesting post Karen, I need a little time to digest it, but will be back. My suggestion about getting together for research on the extended Bottisham/Lode seems to have not to have generated interest thus far. What do others think please?
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Regarding post 9 from 2008 Is James Cornwell bapt 1801, son of Holmes Cornwell and Elizabeth Day a possible father?
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Does anyone have the reference for James Cornwell bp. 1801, son of Holmes and Elizabeth Cornwell? I know that Holmes and Elizabeth (Day) Cornwell had a son, James, due to the fact that he is named in the will of Holmes in 1837. Is James Cornwell, bp. 1801 recorded in the Bottiham Lode, Camb. church records or the bishop transcripts? I also know that James Cornwell married Hannah Greygoose and had a son named Holmes born Jan. 26, 1841 in Bottisham Fen, Camb. from the birth certificate of Holmes Cornwell.
Karen
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Hi Karen
Children of Holmes and Elizabeth
1787 John Day Cornwell
1789 William Cornwell
1791 Elizabeth Cornwell
1794 Holmes Cornwell
1796 George Cornwell
1799 Susanna Cornwell
no sign of James
Paul
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This is a query regarding George Cornwell, born in Bottisham Lode, Camb, in 1819 or 1820. This George Cornwell was the son of John Day Cornwell and Sarah West. I know that this George Cornwell was married to Harriet Beard in 1842. Harriet Cornwell died in 1862. In my quest to locate the death date of this George Cornwell, I have located a George Cornwell that was stated to be born in Bottisham, Camb. in the 1891 British Census. In that census, he was 70 years old. This George was married to Eliza and this George Cornwell died Nov. 9, 1893 in Little Eversden, Caxton, Camb. I am most interested in locating the marriage of this George Cornwell to Eliza.
I have obtained a marriage certificate for a George Cornwell, 21 y. o., son of Philip Cornwell, married Apr. 1, 1862 at St. Andrews St. Register office to a Harriet Anne Hoye, 21 y. o., daughter of Edward Hoye. Both fathers were named as Labourers. Hopefully this informaton will be of interest to someone.
Karen
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Thanks Karen, I am working through the book, and eventually when I have put it into order I will send a detailed list for your observations. I know this does not directly relate to George, but I was very intrigued to find I had close relatives in South Yorkshire near where I lived for 45 years and never knew it!
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I'm learning even more about my Grandparents Family....thanks for the info!
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I have obtained a marriage certificate for a George Cornwell, 21 y. o., son of Philip Cornwell, married Apr. 1, 1862 at St. Andrews St. Register office to a Harriet Anne Hoye, 21 y. o., daughter of Edward Hoye. Both fathers were named as Labourers. Hopefully this informaton will be of interest to someone.
Karen
It is to me Karen, and another twist to the family spiral. Harriet was the sister of my 2XGGmother Melinda Hoye, married name Willis. However, another mystery.I have her father as John Hoye, b1801 Bradley Suffolk, and her mother Jemima Taylor b1808 Stechworth Cambs.
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Hi Carolyn,
Just read your thread regarding the cornwells of 2008/9 and wonder if you are still pursuing this investigation.
I am David Cornwells grand daughter , second son of George Cornwell and I personally knew George and several of the brothers and sisters. I am 79 . I do have a photograph of George somewhere in my mothers old albums (she died in 2007 aged 100) . George was well into his 90's when he died and at that time was living with Lily and Morley (real name Frank Morley one of the brothers) at "Shanklin", High st, Bottisham). I spent time with him, as most of our holidays when I was little
was in Bottisham and Newmarket.
Perhaps we can learn from each other.
Look forward to hearing from you.
Jean Sharp.
Hi yes am still looking at these relatives but havent looked at roots chat for some while-iam rueben cornwell grand daughter so any information you have or stories to tell+ any photographs would be of great interest to me-i live in northants so family have not moved far-look forward to hearing from you
carolyn
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Hi Carolyn,
Just read your thread regarding the cornwells of 2008/9 and wonder if you are still pursuing this investigation.
I am David Cornwells grand daughter , second son of George Cornwell and I personally knew George and several of the brothers and sisters. I am 79 . I do have a photograph of George somewhere in my mothers old albums (she died in 2007 aged 100) . George was well into his 90's when he died and at that time was living with Lily and Morley (real name Frank Morley one of the brothers) at "Shanklin", High st, Bottisham). I spent time with him, as most of our holidays when I was little
was in Bottisham and Newmarket.
Perhaps we can learn from each other.
Look forward to hearing from you.
Jean Sharp.
These ages seem to go with the Cornwell/Ayres X chromosome, my great grandmother Emily Cornwell died in 1941 aged 91, my mother another Emily! (nee Ayres) was b 1903 and died 2003 aged 99 and 106 days; her older sister Winifred (b1898-1997) was three weeks short of her 99th birthday when she died in October 1997. Their older sister Doris, died of cancer aged 73, but there are very many others who have reached their late 90s, though in my immediate family no centenarians; yet.
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This query is regarding Susan Cornwell, vs. Susan Cornell married to Samuel Bull.
1. The Baptist Church, Bottisham Lode records state "These are to Certify, that Susan Cornwell (or Cornell) daughter of William Cornwell and Mary his wife, was born in Bottisham Load in the Parish of Bottisham in the County of Cambridge the 3 day of August in the year one thousand eight hundred and seventeen. Registered by me--Thomas Reynolds--Protestant Dissenting Minister.
In the margin is written "The Name should be Cornell."
2. William Cornwell, son of Holmes Cornwell and Elizabeth Day, was married May 26, 1812 to Mary Benstead. The only child that was baptized in the Church of England church records of Bottisham was Robert Cornwell, baptized Sept. 12, 1813.
3. Lucy Joan Slater in The Bulls of Lode in the Journal of the Cambridgeshire Family History Society, Vol. 6, Number 8, Winter, 1988, pp. 217-218, stated that Samuel Bull (1816-1885) and his wife, Susan nee Cornell of St. Mary's the Less were married in Cambridge by license on May 7, 1837. Susan died March 25, 1848, age 31 and was buried in the Baptist churchyard in Bottisham Lode, Camb.
4.Samuel Bull did remarry May 20, 1849 at All Saints, Camb., to Susan Cornwall, spinster of Jesus Lane, Camb. Her father was Holmes Cornwell. The Holmes Cornwell, her father, was bp. Feb 23, 1794, Bottisham Lode, Camb. The mother of Susan Cornwall was Mary Cook. Both Samuel and Susan Bull are named in the will of Holmes Cornwell.
The query is: Was Susan Cornell, the first wife of Samuel Bull, the daughter of William Cornwell and Mary Benstead or was Susan Cornell, the first wife of Samuel Bull, daughter of other parents with the last name of Cornell? Does anyone have the marriage record of Samuel Bull and Susan Cornell married May 7, 1837 in Cambridge by license that would state her father's name? Was there another Susan Cornell baptized at St. Mary's the Less that would be 31 years old in 1848?
I would appreciate any comments about this confusing problem.
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Karen, I will keep a look out for this. I have already learned from your posting that Samuel Bull married twice; I was only aware of the second marriage.Incidentally I have Susan (II) shown as Susannah.
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Karen,
Remember me ? I regret that I have no definite evidence to resolve your question but share the strong belief that Samuel BULL’s first wife was indeed Susan the daughter of William CORNWELL & Mary BENSTEAD. For sure, his second wife, Susannah ‘Susan’ CORNWELL, was my GG Aunt.
Regarding your comments on their other offspring, I have noted that Charlotte was christened at Holy Trinity Church, Bottisham, on 12 March 1815 as was Elizabeth on 16 June 1816. William embraced non-conformity after the death of their first three children hence Susan’s christening at Lode Baptist Chapel.
I have no Susan CORNELL baptism in St Mary the Less circa 1817. Only William CORNWELL & Sarah (WALLIS) were having their children christened there around that time & (seemingly) didn’t have a daughter Susan.
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Peter, what was the date of the christening at Lode Baptist chapel? I have the CDs from Cambridge FHS, but what is worrying me is that Baptists do not do infant Baptism. Adult baptism by total immersion only. If the chapel did not have a Baptistry then the cerfemony would take place in a local water course or if coastal the sea. Children born to the Community were recorded on a "cradle roll" sort of for future reference, but there was no infant Baptism.
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Roger,
Quite so - my mistake. No 'infant sprinkling' (as G Grandfather Cook 'Charles' CORNWELL described it) at Lode Baptist Chapel. As KarenRuth2 says in her post of 7 January, the birth date of Susan CORNWELL daughter of William & Mary (BENSTEAD) is registered there on 3 August 1817 - the name being amended to CORNELL. I believe that baptisms took place in the River Cam at Bottisham Locks a site also used by Waterbeach Baptist Chapel.
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Thanks Peter, that seems to have been a very likely site. Hope it caused healthy friendly intercourse between the two churches.Like the term "infant sprinkling". This Ayres, Benstead, Cornwell family at Lode is just one great spiral. I am my own 4th cousin! Some years ago when I first started researching I asked my mother what had been her grandmother's maiden name. Her reply in a tone that suggested I should have known, was Cornwell (leaving stupid boy, it's a law of nature that Ayres males marry Cornwell girls! unsaid, she was over 90 and I was then in my late 50s!) When I started serious research shortly afterwards I found what she meant.
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Hi Peter, Roger
I have read with interest Peters view that maybe folk were baptised at Bottisham lock.. whilst i have no proof just word of mouth of the older folk of Lode.. who say baptisms took place in the village
in the river that runs through it at place called Drover Bridge. Quarter of a mile from the Chapel.
Sounds logical to me as Bottisham lock is some 2 miles away.
Paul .
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Hi Everyone. I'm a new RootsChat user, and am very pleased to have stumbled on your discusssions about the ubiquitous Bottisham CORNWELLs. My interest is in any relationship between Eli CORNWELL (Jack CORNWELL VC's father) and one of my distant uncles, Israel CORNWELL (born Q3/1861 in Bottisham - where else!?). Israel was a railway man living in Swaffham Bulbeck around 1900/1910, and I'm pretty sure his grandparents were Robert CORNWELL (bap. about 1804) & Hannah AYRES. (AYRES: now there's another name that crops up all the time, of course).
Robert was a contemporary of Phillip CORNWELL (bap. about 1801) but I can't find if they were cousins or even brothers: Phillip's father William (born about 1760/70) seems an elusive chap and I haven't located any other of his sons apart from Phillip.
Any info., comments or tips gratefully received.
All the best,
Pete C (alias tidC)
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Hi Pete C
Welcome to ROOTSCHAT.com!
The only bit of info I have is that Eli Cornwell was my Great Grandfathers brother,he was Absolom.
Don't know a lot about Israel Cornwell but I think he appears in my family tree somewhere.
Regards
Andrew :)
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Hello Peter,
Welcome aboard. Robert CORNWELL & Hannah (AYRES) were the grandparents of Eli CORNWELL while Philip CORNWELL & Ann (AYRES) were grandparents of Israel. Thus, Robert & Philip CORNWELL were first cousins making Eli & Israel CORNWELL third cousins.
As you say, William CORNWELL (1770 app - 1836 app) is elusive & details of him are somewhat sketchy but I believe he sired three boys in addition to Philip: (William 1790 - 1790), John (1796 app - 1868), & William (1796 app - btw 1841 and 1851) plus two daughters Mary Anne (1792 app - ?) & Sarah (1802 app - 1826).
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Gents,
Very many thanks for getting in touch.
To my acute embarrassment (oops!) - it must have been my excitement at finding RootsChat (!) - I see that in my message I got Eli and Israel the wrong way round. My apologies. So, Peter, you're absolutely right: Eli was Robert & Hannah's grandson, Israel was Phillip & Ann's grandson.
Frustratingly, this still puts me back at square one as it's Robert and Phillip that I'd like to connect 'by blood' so to speak (i.e. in order to make an equivalent connection between Eli & Israel). I can't definitely say they were cousins unless there's a link between them both that goes up to William as the common ancestor. And thanks for the info on William's other children, by the way.
Andrew, in rooting around the CORNWELLs, I also found your Absolom and thought I'd cracked the problem because of all the obviously biblical names: surely they were all brothers or cousins (??), but it's not that simple is it?!
Incidentally, what's your interest in CARTERs? That's my surname.
Thanks again and best regards,
Pete C (alias tidC)
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Peter,
As I said, Robert & Philip CORNWELL were first cousins; their respective fathers Holmes CORNWELL (1764 app - 29 Jun 1837) & William CORNWELL (1770 app - 1836 app) were brothers - both sons of William CORNWELL (1731 app - 1795) & Elizabeth HOLMES.
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Thanks, Peter.
I haven't got enough info on Holmes ... If he and William were indeed brothers, then the 'cousins connection' between Phillip and Robert (and hence Israel and Eli) is made.
Regards,
Pete C (tidC)
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I have a William Cornwell b 17 October 1769 but I have no detail; of his parents or even where he was born.I have Holmes b 1764, but the tracking of the family in the 18th century is extremely difficult. I do know definitely that I am the first cousin twice removed of Jack Cornwell VC my maternal grandfather Samuel Ayres (1868-1935) was his first cousin, being the oldest child of James Ayres and Emily Cornwell (1850-1941) who was the older sister of Eli (1852-1916) who died in 1916. Eli married twice first to Alice Carpenter, and after her death to Jack's mother Lily King who died in 1919. Jack was the second of their 3 sons, they also had a daughter Lily. I remember being told by my late grandmother who was close to Lily(senior) that Jack was exhumed and given a state funeral after the Admiralty visited his parents shortly after his death and pressured them into it to boost national morale.
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It has long been suggested that the state funeral lavished upon boy John Travers CORNWELL VC was prompted by a government who wished to divert as much attention as possible from the failure of the Royal Navy to obtain the decisive victory that it should have over the German High Seas Fleet at Jutland. 'Spin' clearly being no modern phenomenon.
As for 'Jack's' lineage, has anyone actually traced the marriage of Eli CORNWELL & Lily KING ? And (for that matter) the previous death of Alice CARPENTER ? I would welcome details have you done so.
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Exactly Peter, I wonder if any papers about the state funeral have survived in the National archive, worth a look I think? I have just checked my data base and find that while I have Eli marrying Alice at West Ham 21 September 1884 I have nothing definite on either her death or his second marriage to Lily. I am about to see what I can find out. Watch this space.
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I have searched free BMD for Alice's death between 1895 and 1944 when she would have been 80.
Confined to London area Alice Elizabeth Hackney June 1896;Alice Stepney Dec 1919;Age 54 good fit!; Alice M Surrey NE Sept 1935 age 69. No marriage for Eli, plenty for Elizabeth :) , also searched for Lily King with spouse Cornwell None; so Peter it looks as though there is a possible scandal in the family. Yet another!!
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Redroger,
Thanks for your comments. Scandal ? It gets better yet. Family rumour has it that Alice left Eli with the two children & ran off with another women. I have not investigated this branch of the family in any detail so am unable to confirm or otherwise but was hopeful that another CORNWELL researcher may have traced one or other of the necessary certificates. Thanks again.
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Further research needed I think. My own suspicion is that the Alice who died in Surrey in 1919 is his first wife; had it been the Alice who died in 1896 he would surely have married Lily, unless she was already married of course. When I next go to London I shall see what I can find out Peter.
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For a start, both Eli and Lily are buried in Manor Park. I wonder if it is possible to trace the grave and to see if there are any significant memorials there. Might give a clue.Lily b Leighton Buzzard 1871. There are several marriages of a Lily King in London in the 1890s any of which could be relevant. However, given her birthplace of Leighton Buzzard Beds. I wonder if the marriage of a Lily Jane King registered in Luton 4th quarter 1890 has any relevance.It is easy to put a conjecture together, i.e. Lily aged 19 marries in Luton, marriage she moves to London, meets Eli, either widowed or left alone with 2 children and moves in. Proving this is not a load of hogwash is more difficult.
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Hello, I am new to tracing my family history. I live in Australia and my great, great great grandfather (John Day Cornwell) is a descendant of Holmes Cornwell and Elizabeth Day. From what I have been able to gather, my great-great-great-grandfather married Sarah West in 1811. My great-great-grandfather, John Cornwell, was born in 1826. He married three times, Elizabeth Rolph (Rolf) in 1848 - they had three children. Elizabeth died and he married Rebecca Benstead in 1856 before emigrating to Australia on the Washington Irving, arriving 1857. On board, Rebecca gave birth to a son Isacc - she died either on board or shortly after arrival in Sydney. John then married Mary Ann Slater, who was an assisted immigrant, They had a further four children, including my great, great grandfather, Sydney Cornwell (b. 1864).
If anyone has any information on John Day Cornwell or Sarah West, including whether or not they were a poor family, how they made their living etc, that would be good. I understand from ships records that John Cornwell (1826) was illiterate, so I gather they were labourers. Australian records are limited so I would be grateful if anyone has any information about the Cornwells in Parramatta Sydney. My father's family (Sydney's descendants) come from Mittagong/Bowral in NSW.
THanks
Alli
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Hello Alli,
Happy to help. I have sent you a personal message.
Peter Cornwell
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Alli, Just a brief snippet from our tangled family history. My grandfather's youngest brother James Ayres (b1888) migrated to Australia in 1903; his mother was Emily Cornwell(b1850). His sister Elizabeth (my great Aunt; known as Aunt Liz) married John Benstead. The family history of the Ayres/Benstead/ Cornwell clan is a giant pot of inter marriage which extends back at least into the 18th century. The village of Bottisham/Lode could fairly be described at that time as a village related to itself. More later over the next few weeks. There are many known errors in the earlier history of the extended family; I recognise the name of your ancestor; and would imagine that the surnames Ayres/Cornwell etc appear many times in the tree.
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Dear Allij,
I have been in contact with the Parramatta Sydney Cornwell family. They are descended from the nephew of John Cornwell, born in 1826. Samuel Cornwell went to Australia on the same ship with John Cornwell. I would be happy to share. Your personal message box is full.
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Hi KarenRuth - thank you my inbox should be accessible now. Ta Allij
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Hello all,
Just had an interesting 20 minutes reading this thread ;)
My 4 x g grandparents were James Cornwell and Hannah Greygoose - I saw them mentioned in the thread in relation to their son Holmes Cornwell. If anyone has any information, gratefully received!
I cannot find parents for either James or Hannah. I suspect Hannah was the illegitimate daughter of Rebecca Greygoose as she was baptising illegitimate children around the right period, but not my Hannah it seems :(
I know James and Hannah married 22/10/1833 at Quy, that James appears on the 1841 census but not the 1851 census, so presumably died prior to 1851 - it looks like Hannah is listed as a widow on the census but it isn't too clear - although I have yet to uncover a burial.
The children I have found for them through the CFHS Bottisham Parish Register transcription CD are
Elizabeth (my 3xg grandmother) 1835
Rebecca 1840
Holmes 1841
John 1842
Susan 1845
James 1847
Charles 1849
Hope this rings some bells with someone
Thanks! Karen
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Ah, dug out my CDs again and:
From Swaffham Bulbeck Parish Register:
1801
Jun 28 CORNELL James son of Holme & Elizabeth
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The offspring of James CORNWELL (my GGG Uncle) & Hannah (GREYGOOSE) are as you say with the sole addition of a first son Holmes who was born Q3 1837 & died Q2 1840. James as you correctly supposed died on 14 March 1851 but I too have been unable to trace his burial. Hannah stayed on in Bottisham Lode Fen after her husband's death, but with seven children to support she was forced onto parish relief. However, by the following year, she was running a beer house on the Fen which she kept for at least 9 years. Possibly the same ale house that her husband had once run ? By 1871 she had become housekeeper to William WOOLARD and was living with him in Lode Road. They married the following year but in 1881 she was living alone in Mill Road as 'Hannah CORNWELL annuitant' so she was apparently enjoying an income from somewhere.
I regret that I do not trace the female lines but I do have a note that on her marriage to WOOLARD in 1872 she volunteered her father's name as 'John NEWMAN' .
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Hello Peter,
Thank you for your response and the information. I have only very recently started to look at the "offshoots" from my maiden name of Knights, so not been on the trail of the Cornwells for very long.
Back in 2002 a gentleman from Bedford had contacted me regarding my Howard ancestors and had stated there was a "family legend" that we were related to Jack Cornwell - from this thread, I find this is true - distantly :) My 12 year old will be pleased as he is very interested in the war and has often asked if I can find a VC anywhere on the tree! ;D
Do you use Ancestry? I do have a tree on there although no current subscription. I am happy to share the tree with you if you would like.
I had traced Hannah through the years via the census and noted the pub! I did not know about the subsequent marriage, so will dig into this a little more, thank you so much for the information. Have you gone back any further with James parents?
I shall probably take a trip over Bottisham way next year. I grew up in Fenstanton (are you a Cambs person?) so I know Bottisham a little but not very well.
Thank you again for your help
Karen
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Hello Karen,
Once you made the connection with a CORNWELL ancestor from Bottisham your relationship to John Travers CORNWELL VC was practically assured. James CORNWELL (1801-1851) was the fifth son of Holmes CORNWELL Sr & Elizabeth (DAY) who married at Holy Trinity Bottisham on 11 July 1786. His family tree can be traced all the way back to the marriage of Robert CORNEWELL & Agnes (DRIVER) at St Vigor’s Fulbourn on 30 September 1598. If you plan to visit Bottisham we can possibly meet up? I live nearby.
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Yes the relationship to Jack Cornwell VC is well known my great grandmother Emily Cornwell (1850-1941) was his grandmother. My maternal grandfather Samuel Ayres(1868-1935) was his first cousin. Jack was born to his father's second relationship.i have so far failed to find the marriage.
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Well, he is not royalty (12 year old son still holding out for that one - been watching too much WDYTYA? haha) but he is still pretty impressive - even the 9 year old daughter who thinks history is extremely boring has written a little piece for show and tell at school about him.
Peter, I have sent you a PM with my email address.
Redroger - I can PM you my email too if you like, I am not sure if you follow all lines as we must be fairly distantly related (Jack Cornwell is my 3rd cousin 4 times removed according to Family Tree maker) but I can email you further info regarding my branch if you wish
karen
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Yes please Karen Peter I shall be in further touch about the 1598 connection. I suspect I have made some (many?) errors in my earlier tree.
Roger
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Hi everyone. I am looking to connect with any Cornwell relatives. Being related to Jack Cornwell seemed to be a good place to start. He(Jack) and my granddad were cousins. My granddad is Joseph C Cornwell who married Edith Milborrow in Lambeth 1926.
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Identical relationship apparently to Jack Cornwell as my own. My maternal grandfather Samuel Ayres (bLode 1868 d Cambridge 1935) was the son of James Ayres and Emily Cornwell (1850-1941). For some obscure reason I am unable to open myLegacy program at present, so the information I have to memory is limited, in that I cannot check Emily's parents, but I am aware that the Ayres and Cornwell families intermarried for many generations. One thing that does intrigue me about Jack, which I have not yet resolved is where does the Travers come from? Perhaps you can help.
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Hi redroger, thanks for reply. I recently found some cornwell relatives via facebook and we have exchanged family trees to confirm. One of them was named after John Travers so I will ask him if he knows about the name, they also have Ayes(sorry if spelt wrong) in their relatives connections. If you are interested in connecting with me on facebook, drop me a note. If I get any answers about Travers origin I will come back to you on here.
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hi redroger. I think I found your granddad on my tree on ancestry. if its correct your nxt relatives going back from what you gave me before are Samuel Cornwell1829 and Elizabeth Harvey, then further back Robert cornwell and Hannah Ayres
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Hi jowasere
Your Samuel Cornwell b.1829 was my Great Great Grandfather,one of his sons was Absalom (Benny) Cornwell uncle to John Travers Cornwell.
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When John Travers Cornwell VC's mother Lily King died in 1919, for some obscure reason that I haven't been able to get to the bottom of, the death records gave her name as Alice. Apparently, she did use this name....(!). Things were compounded by her being interred in John and Eli's grave as Alice, and with Alice Carpenter's birth year! The Alice Elizabeth Cornwell death in Hackney 1896 is for a 1 year old. She MIGHT have been a daughter of Eli and Lily, as their 1911 Census record states they had lost a child. I have scoured for a marriage certificate, I have searched everywhere for death records for Alice Carpenter.
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Hello Roger,
As far as I am aware, no CORNWELL researcher has ever resolved this dilemma. No registration of any marriage between Eli CORNWELL & Lily KING can be found nor a record of the death of his first wife Alice CARPENTER.
Alice CARPENTER:
Daughter of Henry CARPENTER a Brewer's Cooper living at 2 Astley Street, Maidstone, in 1871. By 1881, working as a General Domestic Servant for Head Police Constable Robert ROMANIS & family living at 20 Dane Hill Road, Margate.
Married three years later & settled with Eli raising their young family at 101 Stainsby Road, Limehouse, in 1891 but left them sometime during the next three years. Old family rumour has it that she left Eli & the children and went off with another woman.
NOTE: Alice CORNWELL age 32 death registered in Maldon, Essex, Q4 1897 may be connected ???
Lily KING:
Engaged as housekeeper sometime after Alice departed, but eventually moved in with Eli as his common-law wife. No record of marriage found.
Received her son's VC from King George V at Buckingham Palace on 16 Nov 1916.
After the death of Eli, the family were reduced to quite 'distressing straits' and were 'living in penury' despite a small pension provided for Lily by the Navy League. Lily was living 'in modest rooms over a general store in Commercial Road East' in Aug 1919. This state of affairs, in comparison to the large sums of money collected for memorials to Jack and for disabled ex-servicemen's homes etc, provoked adverse comment in the national press. The Daily Sketch was particularly critical of the Star and Garter Home at Richmond, where 'a huge sum of money raised to do honour to the name of Jack Cornwell still lies idle'. According to press reports, Lily 'collapsed and died under the strain of the precarious conditions in which she was left to live'. She was buried, along with her common-law husband & son 'Jack', in Manor Park Cemetery under the alias of 'Alice'. Letters of Administration to her effects valued at £42.0.8d granted to son Ernest on 10 Nov 1919.
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Peter, there is something else I am minded to do, but it most likely has to be after lockdown is ended. We have got to very similar positions in our research.
Redroger (to avoid possible confusion)
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Hoping to resurrect discussion on this thread :)
If you scroll back on this thread you will see I am a descendant of Holmes Cornwell, via James Cornwell and Hannah Greygoose. Since my initial posts on here I have done a lot more research, collaborated with other descendants and built my tree considerably. I've DNA tested and also tested my paternal great uncle who is the oldest living relative I have on this line. Happily, our results verified much of my paper tree and explained a few question marks I had over some ancestors.
I'm now tracing backwards from Holmes Cornwell and Elizabeth Day. I am happy that William Cornwell and Elizabeth Holmes are the parents of Holmes Cornwell. I see that it is generally agreed that William Cornwell and Sarah Blacklock are the parents of William. Why? A "most likely" scenario? Is there more evidence than the very patchy Fulbourn registers? I can find no will for William or Sarah so has anyone else uncovered one? I'm transcribing the documents relating to the legal spat they had with Sarah's family with the help of Redroger, but so far it doesn't seem to shed any light.
I also question the William Cornwell / Ann Arber marriage. This is often said to be the son of William Cornwell and Elizabeth Holmes, but I cannot see why this conclusion has been drawn?! What am I missing? Why has the William Cornwell / Sarah Wallis marriage in 1795 at St Andrew the Less been discounted? I can see 4 children attributed to a William and Sarah Cornwell baptised at St Mary the Less Cambridge, but the first baptism is 10 years after the marriage at St Andrew the Less, which seems an awfully long time for it to be the same couple... However, there isn't any other marriage that is leaping out as more likely! The 1840 burial for William Cornwell aged 73 at St Mary the Less says his abode is Potton, but I can find nothing in Potton relating to him or any of the children baptised at St Mary the Less. (Tbf, the Beds FHS CDs aren't a patch on the Cambs ones and my Potton one doesn't play very nicely in my laptop!)
So I've come on here to see if anyone who has trodden this ground before can explain or is willing to share their research, or if they have gone down the DNA route, pool results! :) I know there are loose ends in my Cornwell research, they were such an extensive family with a complicating way of intermarrying through the generations.
For anyone interested, I have gone back a number of generations on Elizabeth Day's paternal line, although I am stuck on Mary Lemon's line (I have put a note on Ancestry about all the Swaffham Prior baptisms being listed on there as occurring in Sutton which has given rise to the Mary Northrop scenario). I have also gone back a number of generations on Elizabeth Holmes' line and it is all on a private tree on Ancestry I am happy to invite any Cornwell descendants to view!
Any thoughts more than welcome!
Karen
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Karen,
You raise several issues here so let me first comment on the parentage of William CORNWELL who married Sarah BLACKLOCK.
Two William CORNWELLs both baptised at Fulbourn St Vigor’s within a year of each other & both later married to women named Elizabeth within two years of each other does offer plenty of scope for confusion. And to further confound the issue both also had connections with Cambridge St Andrew’s. At this distance in time, and with sketchy documentary evidence, making a distinction between them is problematic. But one possible material factor may be the relative prosperity of the families concerned.
(1) William CORNWELL (born c.1731) was the eldest son of William CORNWELL, a prosperous yeoman farmer of Fulbourn, who had inherited two properties in Fulbourn & his wife Sarah BLACKLOCK who had also inherited £200 from her late brother. I believe it was this William who married Elizabeth HOLMES at St Vigor’s, Fulbourn, on 1 April 1754.
Witness at his sister Mary's wedding in Fulbourn 1756. As the eldest son he would, presumably, have also given her away, their father then being dead. Also witnessed his brother-in-law's, John HOLMES, wedding to Tabitha CRACKNELL at Wilbraham 1759. Shown as 'Wm CORNALL' he is listed as a 'Tenant of the Mannour of Fulbourne Zouches' on 26 Apr 1759. His father & uncle both being manorial tenants before him. Thus, also the 'Wm CORNWELL' assessed for Land Tax (4/- in the £) in 1762/3 on a cottage in Fulbourn rateable value eight shillings - the same assessment showing his children's land rated at an extra twelve shillings. Clearly a fairly prosperous family.
May also have held property in Cambridge as all his children were baptised at the 'Abbey Church' of St Andrew's the Less between 1755-1775. However, the family was subject of a removal order from St Andrew's the Less to St Benedict's parish dated 14 Apr 1770. Thus, all the girls were wed in that parish rather than the one preferred by the family hitherto. This suggests that they were resident in the town centre around Corpus Christi but I have yet to establish William's (business?) connection to Cambridge.
BELIEVED TO BE the 'William CORNWELL labourer from Barnwell' buried at Fulbourn in 1795? To date, I have not located any will for either William nor Elizabeth.
The alternative (2) William CORNWELL (born c.1730) was the youngest son of John CORNWELL the Fulbourn pinder. I believe it was this William who married Elizabeth TYRELL at Great St Andrew’s, Cambridge, on 14 December 1756.
As 'William CORNWELL of Fulbourn' he was indentured as an apprentice glover to Charles HANCOCK of Cambridge in 1759 - a profession he subsequently pursued in Cambridge. William & Elizabeth were both listed as members of the St Andrew's Street Baptist Church in Cambridge between 1760 - 1781. On 30 May 1765 he was voted four shillings a year by the church for the upkeep of doors & window shutters etc. His wife was later excommunicated from the church on 15 May 1768 but he evidently remained a member as he was receiving alms from the church between 1777 - 1781.
Your most interesting post raises more questions than I have time to address this morning but I will get to them very shortly.
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Chores done so to continue …
Currently, I know of no firm evidence that the William CORNWELL who married Ann ARBER at Holy Trinity, Bottisham, on 3 Nov 1789 was the son of William CORNWELL & Elizabeth (HOLMES) rather than the issue of William CORNWELL & Sarah (WALLIS). However, given subsequent links between this particular branch of the family following its transition from Fulbourn to Bottisham, it does seem the most likely of five possible William CORNWELL marriages that took place in the county between 1788 and 1796.
William CORNWELL & Sarah (WALLIS) on the other hand seem to have been more closely associated with Cambridge town itself. But I have no record to the late baptisms of their children that you mention. There were in fact five children all, as you say, baptised at St Mary The Less as follows: William (born c.1801) and Mary Ann (born c.1805) both baptised on 10 Nov 1805, Philip (born c.1807) baptised 15 Nov 1807, Eliza (born c.1810) baptised 6 Jan 1811, and Harriet (born c.1815) baptised on 28 May 1815. The latter being recorded as CORNELL.
This William CORNWELL was the Trumpington tollgate keeper for many years and the building still stands though now a private house (see attached). They later moved to Bedfordshire when William took over as the Sutton turnpike gatekeeper and where he died on 14 Feb 1840. He was returned from Potton parish to St Mary The Less in Cambridge for burial on 20 Feb 1840.
I hope this may be of some help to you in your research. You certainly put your finger on some thorny issues familiar to CORNWELL researchers. Let us hope that one of them has some positive answers to share with us all.
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Hi Peter,
Thanks for your wealth of information!
Is the will you refer to of a brother of Sarah Blacklock the will of Nelson Blacklock? I have noted this will is held at the National Archives and that Sarah is the administratrix but I am unable to obtain a copy (website will not let me progress to order page). I'm aware the NA restricted the times at which orders could be placed each day, but I managed to order the legal documents pertaining to the wrangle with Sarah's mother Mary, her brother Nelson and her uncle William straight after attempting to purchase Nelson's will, so I'm not sure why I couldn't progress the will order...
Anyway... I have seen the William Cornwell / Elizabeth Tyrrell marriage, seen the entries in the Baptist chapel book referring to the occupation of William, the upkeep of the doors etc and Elizabeth's excommunication (there's a woman who should never have been defending herself! Not that she seemed to care much about being kicked out!) The Tyrrells were also a well to do family (I seem to dimly recall they had a connection to Zouches as well, however I think it passed from the Tyrrells to the Daltons (who were connected to the Tyrrells) some time prior to Elizabeth Tyrrell's birth). However, the name of Holmes Cornwell would point towards William Cornwell and Elizabeth Holmes being his parents and I am satified this is as good evidence as we are ever likely to get.
Going back a generation then, there are just a number of things that don't sit quite right with me without further evidence. Although it is not a hard and fast rule, it is strange that none of the children of William and Elizabeth are called Sarah after his mother for one...
Do you have the legal documents relating to the court action William Cornwell and Sarah Blacklock took against her family? If not, the land and premises mentioned are Fulbourn Meadow, Sledds, Catch Hatch and Tibbys, all within Fulbourn. I've asked the Fulbourn Village History Society and Trinity Hall if they know the location of these places but the only one I can definitely pinpoint is Fulbourn Meadow. If I can tie the family together through the land, I'd be a little happier to conclude that William and Sarah are the correct parents! Have you followed up on any of the land that William Boulton owned? I feel that any land connection may be a way to further prove what I still feel is a theory in the absence of wills...
As for the William Cornwell / Ann Arber question, the most concerning aspect for me is that I haven't identified any DNA matches on the line. It is a long way back and so not impossible to have no matches, but I have proven other lines this far back so it's a definite possibility that there should be matches... For example I have DNA matches to descendants of Elizabeth Day's siblings, so I'm a little wary that I have none to the descendants of William Cornwell and Ann Arber if William is purportedly a sibling of Holmes. Hopefully someone will test and the match will prove for once and for all. Also, is William not a minor at the time of his marriage, but there is no mention of this in the record (altho admittedly Bottisham seems fairly lax on this compared to other parishes) And who is William Cornwell who married Jane Piper 1789, Bottisham? Why has he been discounted (I ask as I am sure other members have followed this up!)
I am also perplexed as to why the supposed burial of William Cornwell in 1795 describes him as a lab - in fact none of the burials that could be him in Fulbourn appear to be men of wealth, with some described as paupers. So are none of the burials recorded actually him and his burial is lost? Which leads us back to - is the baptism of William his supposed son and our definite ancestor also lost?
So many questions!
Karen
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Karen,
I’m afraid that your most welcome CORNWELL posts come at a somewhat inconvenient time for me so I am unable to dedicate as much time as I would like to replies. But once the festivities are over, I will be able to respond more fully. And, yes, I do intend to celebrate Christmas with my family this year come what may.
With regards to the BLACKLOCK dispute, I have only a photo facsimile (from TNA) of their document Ref: C11/2289/60. It measures roughly three feet square and it is some years since I last consulted it. From memory, it gives good background to the disputed leasehold land in Fulbourn from the perspective of William CORNWELL & his wife Sarah. But I have no precise details of William BOULTON’s land owning in Fulbourn beyond what may be stated in this document. Similarly, DNA research is a foreign country to me so I can be of no help to you there either. But if the William CORNWELL who married Ann ARBER in 1789 was indeed the son of William CORNWELL & Elizabeth (HOLMES) as I suspect, then parental consent to the marriage would certainly have been required.
I think we can discount William CORNWELL, who married widow Jane PIPER at Bottisham Holy Trinity on 22 April 1789 by licence dated the previous day, as a possible son of William CORNWELL & Elizabeth (HOLMES) due to his being recorded as a widower at the time. I believe him to have been born in Fulbourn c.1756 the son of John CORNWELL & Anne (COLE). His first wife, Elizabeth (PARKER) died in 1789 three months after the birth of twin daughters, Elizabeth and Hannah. It also seems that William himself died within four months of this second marriage.
Yes, much remains to be confirmed beyond dispute – such is the fragile nature of most family trees. But do continue asking searching questions. It pays to give the branches a good shake from time to time. Have a good Christmas.
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Hi Peter,
There are a further 7 documents associated with the legal action held by the NA. I'm in the middle of transcribing them (most of them are similar sizes to the document you hold) but can tell you they give an account of the same matter from the perspective of Mary Hancock, William Blacklock and Trinity Hall. I'll email you a copy once I've finished if you'd like.
I'm not sure who William Cornwell who was buried shortly after the marriage of William Cornwell and Jane Piper was as these 2 baptise a son William after the burial and no mention is made in the entry that William Sr is deceased. There are just so many William Cornwells...
Once we hit the school holidays I find I have more time for genealogy which is usually the reverse for everyone else! I'll look forward to more discussion in the new year.
I highly recommend the DNA route, it is absolutely fascinating and it's very satisfying to see a DNA link at the end of a long paper trail. I managed to identify an unknown 4th great grandfather as one of 2 brothers with it. An unexpected match via one of the children of Samuel Bull and his first wife Susan Cornwell can only be explained by his first wife being the daughter of John Day Cornwell. It does however mean you have to follow up every line to identify your matches!
Merry Christmas!
Karen
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Hi Peter,
Thanks for your wealth of information!
Is the will you refer to of a brother of Sarah Blacklock the will of Nelson Blacklock? I have noted this will is held at the National Archives and that Sarah is the administratrix but I am unable to obtain a copy (website will not let me progress to order page). I'm aware the NA restricted the times at which orders could be placed each day, but I managed to order the legal documents pertaining to the wrangle with Sarah's mother Mary, her brother Nelson and her uncle William straight after attempting to purchase Nelson's will, so I'm not sure why I couldn't progress the will order...
Anyway... I have seen the William Cornwell / Elizabeth Tyrrell marriage, seen the entries in the Baptist chapel book referring to the occupation of William, the upkeep of the doors etc and Elizabeth's excommunication (there's a woman who should never have been defending herself! Not that she seemed to care much about being kicked out!) The Tyrrells were also a well to do family (I seem to dimly recall they had a connection to Zouches as well, however I think it passed from the Tyrrells to the Daltons (who were connected to the Tyrrells) some time prior to Elizabeth Tyrrell's birth). However, the name of Holmes Cornwell would point towards William Cornwell and Elizabeth Holmes being his parents and I am satified this is as good evidence as we are ever likely to get.
Going back a generation then, there are just a number of things that don't sit quite right with me without further evidence. Although it is not a hard and fast rule, it is strange that none of the children of William and Elizabeth are called Sarah after his mother for one...
Do you have the legal documents relating to the court action William Cornwell and Sarah Blacklock took against her family? If not, the land and premises mentioned are Fulbourn Meadow, Sledds, Catch Hatch and Tibbys, all within Fulbourn. I've asked the Fulbourn Village History Society and Trinity Hall if they know the location of these places but the only one I can definitely pinpoint is Fulbourn Meadow. If I can tie the family together through the land, I'd be a little happier to conclude that William and Sarah are the correct parents! Have you followed up on any of the land that William Boulton owned? I feel that any land connection may be a way to further prove what I still feel is a theory in the absence of wills...
As for the William Cornwell / Ann Arber question, the most concerning aspect for me is that I haven't identified any DNA matches on the line. It is a long way back and so not impossible to have no matches, but I have proven other lines this far back so it's a definite possibility that there should be matches... For example I have DNA matches to descendants of Elizabeth Day's siblings, so I'm a little wary that I have none to the descendants of William Cornwell and Ann Arber if William is purportedly a sibling of Holmes. Hopefully someone will test and the match will prove for once and for all. Also, is William not a minor at the time of his marriage, but there is no mention of this in the record (altho admittedly Bottisham seems fairly lax on this compared to other parishes) And who is William Cornwell who married Jane Piper 1789, Bottisham? Why has he been discounted (I ask as I am sure other members have followed this up!)
I am also perplexed as to why the supposed burial of William Cornwell in 1795 describes him as a lab - in fact none of the burials that could be him in Fulbourn appear to be men of wealth, with some described as paupers. So are none of the burials recorded actually him and his burial is lost? Which leads us back to - is the baptism of William his supposed son and our definite ancestor also lost?
So many questions!
Karen
For the little it is worth in context, my great grandparents James Ayres and Elizabeth Cornwell were definitely Baptists. I. 1867 James was "dismembered" from the congregation for fornication and drink. Luckily for me and my relatives. The next time he was dismembered it was just for drink. Not conclusive, but perhaps a pointer in that direction.
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Redroger,
Nothing so mundane in the case of Elizabeth (TYRELL) CORNWELL who was excommunicated from St Andrew's Street Baptist Church by general consent on 15 May 1768. She had forsaken assembly with the church as she considered the doctrine corrupt and failed to discharge her duties to the pastor and deacons as she felt that she owed no duties to such corrupt officers who she declared enemies of God and his gospel. She was also accused of failing to pray for, nor loving, her fellow members which she denied as she did pray for any other than the elect as she thought theirs a work of the devil. She answered all these charges for herself and was very clearly a most opinionated and intimidating lady. A full account is contained in the Church Book held by the Society of Genealogists.
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Redroger, I have a copy of the church book and can scan the appropriate page if you want it!
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Redroger, I have a copy of the church book and can scan the appropriate page if you want it!
Yes please.
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Mrs Orell,
Given your reservations over William CORNWELL (who married Elizabeth HOLMES in 1754) and his supposed parentage of William CORNWELL & Sarah BLACKLOCK I have been reviewing all surviving records in an effort to gain some clarity.
“Going back a generation then, there are just a number of things that don't sit quite right with me without further evidence. Although it is not a hard and fast rule, it is strange that none of the children of William and Elizabeth are called Sarah after his mother for one...”
This is true. But the majority of their issue do perpetuate family names: Richard (1755) Paternal GF, Elizabeth (1757 & 1767) Mother, Susannah (1759) Maternal GM, Holmes (1764) Mother’s maiden name, William (1770) Father. The only exceptions are the two Marys (1761 & 1775). And IF, as I strongly suspect, Sarah (BLACKLOCK) CORNWELL remarried at Fulbourn in 1746 this may provide a possible explanation as to why a grandchild was not named after her. There may have been some family fallout? Far from conclusive I know but sufficient IMO to accept the link as it is. I have already responded to your further points by PM.
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Hi Peter,
Thank you for reviewing your records :) I've been lost in the descendants of John Day and Mary Lemon - my great uncle has a surprising number of DNA matches where they are the MRCA considering they are so far back in the tree. So my Cornwell stuff has been a little pushed to the side...
You'll have to forgive me here as my Cornwell research at this point is all over the place. And also not in my main tree. So you think Wm Cornwell buried 1743 is the husband of Sarah Blacklock? And Sarah then married Henry Scott in 1746 and had at least two children, Henry, born 1747 and baptised 1785 and Martha born 1749 baptised 1809. Sarah died 1781. Henry married Grace Cornwell 1770. Do you have a birth for Sarah as I note on Ancestry other researchers are split between 1700 Cambridge and 1712 St. Ives? None with any sources of course. Other than "Ancestry tree".
Have you uncovered the baptisms for William Cornwell & Eliz Tyrell's children? I'd just like to see them to try to work out which William he is. I am sure they all funnel into the same family if you go back far enough. I want to be as sure as I can be on our William's parentage by looking at all available evidence and am currently unsure as to whether I have seen all the available evidence... I'm also super hesitant to accept what everyone else accepts as I've seen this happen before on other lines in my tree (not that I am saying you are wrong!). In one particular instance parentage was attributed based on a marriage (date and place given in every tree) that doesn't actually appear in the register. As it's in Gloucestershire there are scans of the register pages available on Ancestry so I know it is definitely not there! In this instance people have traced on back to Richard the Lionheart's right hand man and they do not want to give this up despite a vital link in their trees simply not appearing in the records... So this is why I like to chat to other researchers, as they will invariably have come across something I haven't.
So the Sarah Blacklock development is interesting and I will look further into it. I am assuming then that you believe it possible (some or all of) the children of William Cornwell and Sarah Blacklock were brought up by grandparents as the eldest will only have been 12 when William Sr died.
This is an interesting blog post:
https://morgansite.wordpress.com/2011/01/30/not-only-fools-and-horses-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%98scotch-chapmen%E2%80%99-in-england-1660-1800/
The author concludes that Nelson Blacklock ran away to join the navy after forging land deeds (which must relate to the documents redroger and I are ploughing our way through!). But she also states they were most probably of Scottish origin. I do have Scottish ethnicity... Not sure how much weight we should give that though!
More anon but must make dinner
Karen (not Mrs Orrell - we are family Peter!!)
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Haha, found:
England, Select Marriages, 1538-1973
Name: Mary Bolton
Gender: Female
Marriage Date: 1 May 1711
Marriage Place: Dry Drayton,Cambridge,England
Spouse: Bleaklock
FHL Film Number: 873639
So 1700 Cambridge birth for Sarah definitely incorrect.
However, licence states married at Magdalene? And an Ann Bolton is supposedly also married there the same year. by lic, but it does not appear on the Cambs Marriage Licence CD. There are only BTs on Family Search for Dry Drayton and they don't include any marriages for 1711. So what is the Magdalene connection that they could marry there (if they did)? Were there conditions for marrying there then?
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Karen,
Yes, I do believe that William CORNWELL, the husband of Sarah (BLACKLOCK), was that returned from Barnwell for burial at Fulbourn (SV) on 31 Aug 1743. Along with Christopher Ruff, his brother-in-law, he was a trustee of Richard Wright's Clock Land, an endowment for the maintenance & repair of the clock, bells & steeple of St Vigor's Church and as such, he is named in a lease/release of land dated 26/27 November 1735. He was assessed for Fulbourn rates on 29 Aug 1738 and, on 6 Dec the same year, he received a 'constable's rate' of 7/9d from the Geoffrey Bishop's Charity at All Saints, Fulbourn. On 29 Nov 1741, the same charity also paid him an 'overseer's rate' of 11/4d. Significantly, he does not appear as a 'surviving trustee' on the next feoffment of land for Richard Wright's Clock Land dated 7 April 1755, which suggests to me that it was indeed him buried in 1743.
You have the advantage of me with the death of Sarah SCOTT in 1781. I have no note of this so details would be most welcome. I have her birth as c.1714 and (BLAKLOCK) baptism on 26 Feb 1714 at Newport Pagnall, Bucks., the daughter of Andrew BLACKLOCK & Mary (BOLTON). We already knew that her family held land there so this seems safe enough although her exact origins start to look increasingly complicated. Thanks for the blog link. It is highly plausible that Nelson BLACKLOCK ‘did a runner’ into the RN under an assumed name but I have no knowledge of any Scottish origins for his family.
Neither do I know of any children to William CORNWELL & Elizabeth (TYRELL). He was first cousin once removed to the William who married Sarah BLACKLOCK and their lines converge with John CORNEWELL (1658-1718) of Fulbourn - my six-times Great Uncle.
For sure, things would have been difficult for Sarah following the death of William in 1743 with three (or four?) children to raise. But only two of them were still babies, she was fairly comfortably placed, with good family support network on hand, so the three years until her second marriage could have been far worse. I think it unlikely that the CORNWELL grandparents were directly involved in raising the children as grand-father Richard had died ten years earlier.
Unfortunately, I can offer no guidance on any possible connection between Dry Drayton and Magdalene College, Cambridge. Quite a poser.
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I am related to William Cornwell and Sarah Blacklock