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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: whittenbury on Friday 18 January 08 23:24 GMT (UK)
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Hi if anyone on here would like any info on the buffaloes just post on here and I will see what I can get for you (prob not a lot) but could lead you in the right direction .
What I do have are records of where lodge met the Lodge name and number,
so if you find some old jewels or papers from your family just ask.
I am a member of the order and try to record items of intrest for the future
Den
or my title
Bro Den Whittenbury R O H.
PS if I dont reply within a couple of days PM me ;)
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My maternal grandfather was supposed to be a member of the Buffs.
He was JOHN CLULO b. 1st September 1874.
He worked as a lamplighter for Manchester Corporation for many years until 1916.
After that he had a loan from his brother William, and ran a chip shop, or supper bar as my mother preferred to call it :D until at least 1939, at 428, Cheetham Hill Road, Manchester.
I have made previous queries with nil results.
Hope you can help.
Kooky
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Hi whittenbury
Many thanks for your kind offer. I have a great uncle who was apparently a Buffalo. All I have on him is a newspaper obituary referring to this (I have not researched this chap as yet) Arthur Reginald Pearson b 05/Nov/1880 Newcastle upon Tyne, was a member of the Oliver Cromwell branch of Buffaloes. He died 02/Feb/1932 Newcastle. Any information you may be able to obtain would be gratefully received
sallysmum
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My maternal grandfather was supposed to be a member of the Buffs.
He was JOHN CLULO b. 1st September 1874.
He worked as a lamplighter for Manchester Corporation for many years until 1916.
After that he had a loan from his brother William, and ran a chip shop, or supper bar as my mother preferred to call it :D until at least 1939, at 428, Cheetham Hill Road, Manchester.
I have made previous queries with nil results.
Hope you can help.
Kooky
Hi Kooky
I have tried finding a lodge that met in that road (although you could go to any lodge) in 1940 there were well ov 60 lodges in manchester. i doubt his province would hold anything anyway. Sorry
But what I would sugest, if he was a member of Grand Lodge of England to write to Grand Secretary.
Grand Secretary
Stuart Steele BSc (hons)
Grove House, Skipton Road, Harrogate, North Yorkshire HG1 4LA
They might have his records! If you are lucky you prob wont get a lot just some dates and if he obtained a higher degree.
Please let me know how you get on
Den
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Hi whittenbury
Many thanks for your kind offer. I have a great uncle who was apparently a Buffalo. All I have on him is a newspaper obituary referring to this (I have not researched this chap as yet) Arthur Reginald Pearson b 05/Nov/1880 Newcastle upon Tyne, was a member of the Oliver Cromwell branch of Buffaloes. He died 02/Feb/1932 Newcastle. Any information you may be able to obtain would be gratefully received
sallysmum
Hi I can give a little bit more on this!
Lodge number
77 Oliver Cromwell Was in came under the Northumberland & N E Durham (the lodge closed just before 1993)
I have a Directory from 1936 (old directories are as rare as hen's teeth ;D )
It met at the Barrass Bridge hotel Barrass Bridge Newcastle on a Moday evening (so at least you know where he was on monday nights supping a few pints having a laugh and serious at times of business and ceremonies )
You could try writing to the Provincial Grand Secretary Bro Bryan Taylor ROH Northumberland & N E Durham
(I dont have his home address because he is diffrent from the last Directory 2005)
Railway Club, Hudson Street, Gateshead, NE8 2AB. Mark the envolope Buffaloes!
After that you could write to Grand Sec (address above)
Have a look at GLE website go to Provinces Northumberland have a website & guest book Might be worth a try
http://www.raobgle.org.uk/
Happy Hunting
Den
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Whittenbury,
Thank you. I will write.
Kooky
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Hi Wittenbury
Many thanks for this information. I will write to the Grand Sec
Kind regards
Sallysmum
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Re James Bond - See earlier today.
I have attached a photo of him in his RAOB regalia. The bottom logo on the apron says "Order of Merit" whilst the small one at the top of the apron says " "K M O" not sure which is the correct order.
The jewel on the chain (Middle bottom) says RAOB
I believe the photo could have been taken in about 1917 & was taken by a photographer in Barry, South Wales. He lived in Barry or Cadoxton near Cardiff.
I also have a small wooden box containing a seal "B" with wax pieces & on the lid is the same logo as on the top of the apron "K M O" . Around the logo on the box is "Sir J Bond".
Hope you can shed some light on this ancestor.
Thanks for your help so far.
John
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Hi John
Here is a bit for the minute
The Rhoto is him wearing his Knights regalia (K O M ) Knight order of Merit, 3rd degree of 4.
The large collar shows the letter S on the left .The S w this would mean at theould stand for Sitting Primo (nowdays Worthy Primo)
This would mean that month he was elected to run the lodge. (a bit like the chairman)
I am going to see if i can get the Jewels a bit clearer then report back
Den
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Sorry about that i did not realise my wife had loged on this pc but it is me honest lol
The jewel on the right is his knights jewel need to examine the other two a bit more not that clear be in touch soon
Den
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Hi,
What does it mean-Buffaloism? My Grandfather was one (either that or his Dad, both had the same forename). I never realised until I was rumaging through some old photos and found some kind of certificate!!!
Thanks.
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Me too!
I recently came across a beautifully coloured certificate which must have been presented to my father, certifying that he had "been duly initiated into the mysteries of BUFFALOISM with all the ancient rites and ceremonies." on 27th March, 1937.
Arched at the top is "Royal Antediluvian Order of Buffaloes". Grand Middlesex Banner - an "Eclectic" Lodge No. 219. (I think this would be likely in the Tottenham Court Road area)
Lovely prints at the bottom of King John signing the Magtna Charta and Queen Elizaqbeth presenting Earl Essex the Banner & Motto of our Order.
What appears to be the motto is on scrolling like ribbon "In things Essential UNITY", "In things Doubtful LIBERTY", "and in all things CHARITY".
Also pictures of what would appear to be statues representing Europe, Asia, Africa and America.
Such a pity it's too large to scan but I would like to know more about what Buffaloism is.
Thanks
Mary
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Hi,
What does it mean-Buffaloism? My Grandfather was one (either that or his Dad, both had the same forename). I never realised until I was rumaging through some old photos and found some kind of certificate!!!
Thanks.
Hello Burto and MaryA,
Click (http://www.raob.org/about_the_raob.htm) to read "An introduction to Buffaloism as practiced by the R.A.O.B." by David Hardy.
Christopher
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Thanks Christopher, that's a good link.
Mary
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Thanks Christopher
He will like that he is a member of my lodge.
Its a bit long winded.
To be a member you must be Initiated into the order.
The main aspects of the order is philanthropy, benevolance.
but to keep it short have a good night out & help the less fortunate brothers and the local comunity.
I will answer your posts individualy
Den
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Hi,
What does it mean-Buffaloism? My Grandfather was one (either that or his Dad, both had the same forename). I never realised until I was rumaging through some old photos and found some kind of certificate!!!
Thanks.
Hi Burto
If you tell me the bits on the certificate I will help a bit more.
you dont need to copy every thing just the basics esp the handwritten stuff
Den
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Me too!
I recently came across a beautifully coloured certificate which must have been presented to my father, certifying that he had "been duly initiated into the mysteries of BUFFALOISM with all the ancient rites and ceremonies." on 27th March, 1937.
Arched at the top is "Royal Antediluvian Order of Buffaloes". Grand Middlesex Banner - an "Eclectic" Lodge No. 219. (I think this would be likely in the Tottenham Court Road area)
Lovely prints at the bottom of King John signing the Magtna Charta and Queen Elizaqbeth presenting Earl Essex the Banner & Motto of our Order.
What appears to be the motto is on scrolling like ribbon "In things Essential UNITY", "In things Doubtful LIBERTY", "and in all things CHARITY".
Also pictures of what would appear to be statues representing Europe, Asia, Africa and America.
Such a pity it's too large to scan but I would like to know more about what Buffaloism is.
Thanks
Mary
Hi Mary
you are right it is a lovely certificate.
I think Christopher answerd that one.
I dont have much on the G.M.B but i think I have an old directory I will have a look to see if his lodge is in there at least you will know what pub he was drinking in (no we dont ALL drink)
Den
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Aaah, the pub is the clue to the whereabouts is it then? I'm suspecting the Green Man since mum pointed it out to me once when we were in London, I think it was opposite the Middlesex Hospital where dad worked.
Come to think of it, he probably worked in the Green Man itself for a while before he got the job in the hospital.
Thanks Den
Mary
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If anybody wants to know a litte bit more about the order go to
http://www.westherts.net/bugle.html
download the September issue 5 of the BuGLE A journal that I put together this tells a little more about the order.
you can download any issue's you want if your intrested.
Den
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Re James Bond - See earlier today.
I have attached a photo of him in his RAOB regalia. The bottom logo on the apron says "Order of Merit" whilst the small one at the top of the apron says " "K M O" not sure which is the correct order.
The jewel on the chain (Middle bottom) says RAOB
I believe the photo could have been taken in about 1917 & was taken by a photographer in Barry, South Wales. He lived in Barry or Cadoxton near Cardiff.
I also have a small wooden box containing a seal "B" with wax pieces & on the lid is the same logo as on the top of the apron "K M O" . Around the logo on the box is "Sir J Bond".
Hope you can shed some light on this ancestor.
Thanks for your help so far.
John
Hi John still not worked out the other 2 jewles but they are all Grand Lodge of England!
I can only find two lodges in Barry in 1920 (i dont have an older one)
2488 Henry Gethin Lodge Lewis Park hotel Barry Friday's
2869 Victory Lodge Castle Hotel Barry Dock Monday's
you might be able to find a bit more from Grand Lodge (GLE) address earlier
not sure what the box is
if you can read RAOB on the collar I cant, could you try a better pic just of the jewels even
den
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Mary
The only Directory I have for GMB, Grand Middlesex Banner is 1930 which does fit in his time.
219 Electric lodge The King and Queen Cleveland St W1 Wednesday's
I dont know if any records are avalible for GMB (most of the smaler Banners dont have old records)
if you want to know what sort of Jewels he Might have had I posted a Picture of a GMB Buffalo funeral.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,273013.0.html
sorry I cant help that much
Den
To anyone that knows someone in the buffs its always worth searching their name on Ebay as loads of jewels come up every week.
den
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I looked up Cleveland Street on streetmap and it runs parallel to Tottenham Court Road and so within spitting distance almost from the Middlesex Hospital where he worked, so this seems very likely.
Unfortunately after he and mum married and a few years after this he returned to Liverpool and so far as I'm aware he didn't continue his membership up here, which seems a shame, so I shouldn't think he had any jewels.
Thanks for your help and interest Den, it's given me a bit of insight into my dad that I never knew.
Mary
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Hi Burto
If you tell me the bits on the certificate I will help a bit more.
you dont need to copy every thing just the basics esp the handwritten stuff
Den
Hi thanks for all the information...I don't have the certificate to hand as it's at my parents but will be there on Friday so I'll make some notes!
I would like to frame it. Did the groups meet in pubs then? My Granddad's Dad owned a pub! Saying that my Grandma was a singer and performed for the troops in the war as well as working on stage at the Royal Variety etc. and worked in a theatre-is there a link? Granddad never performed.
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Personly I think the link to the theartre is a myth.
most lodges did and still meet in pubs, the most probable reason for him joining is lodges encouraged the landlord into joining the order, one reason is he would enjoy the company and not just decide he wanted the room for something else. He might also have been the Lodge City Waiter, as he would not have to que at the bar ;D
If you know what pub it was & what year I might be able to work out what lodge
Den
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Hi Whittenbury,
Just sent you a personal message.
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Hi Den
I have tried to get a close up of the jewels but it does not make it any clearer. Looking closely at the photograph, the bottom jewel on the chain (not the two below) definitely has an R slanted to the left & an O slanted to the right & what looks like an A in the middle.
Not sure if this helps. I will try the GLE.
Thanks
John
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Hi John
Yes that one is RAOB
The far right is his Knights Jewel
I cant match the other two
Sorry I cant be much help But I will keep searching
Den
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I just wanted to say thank you for this thread. My step-grandfather was in the RAOB and so too were some of my great uncles. I know my father has a lot of cards from different lodges that his step-father (Robert Ross) visited while in the Merchant Navy. I must make sure I have another look through them when I next go up to Hull.
According to my father his uncle, William Waters, was quite high up in the RAOB in Hull and when he died a lot of RAOB members went to his funeral, but we know nothing more. His brother Harry Waters was also possibly in the RAOB and I think there used to be meetings at the pub he ran, the Magna Charta in New Holland, just across the Humber from Hull.
I'd love to find out more about any of these and will certainly look at the links you've posted to get some background information.
Fiona
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Hi Fiona
have a look at the Hull Website
http://beehive.thisishull.co.uk/default.asp?WCI=SiteHome&ID=3580&PageID=76255
It has a guest book on there (you never know someone might remember them)
Many brothers have naval links & their site has a bit about that aswell
What years are we talkin about?
Den
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Thanks Den, I'll have a look at that site.
I dont have exact dates to hand but I think William died in the 1970's and had been a member for many years. Harry emmigrated to Australia in the 1960's and my grandfather died in 1981.
Fiona
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Hi Fiona
Just been having a trawl (pardon the area pun ;D) through their website they seem to know a fair bit of its history so I think you could get lucky. ;)
Den
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Hi again
If Harry emigrated it was more than likely he went to lodges out there (If you are a member you can attend any lodge in the world)
One reason being if you are in a strange place where you dont know many people, go to a lodge and have a load of new mates :)
http://www.raob.org/auslodges.htm
there are some austrailian connections on this site
Den
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Just found the Lodge in the Magna Carta
3177 NEW HOLLAND Lodge Magna Carta Hotel Main St New Holland
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My goodness thank you for that!
I can at least put the details of the Magna Charta Lodge with my info on Harry.
I've got a very poor photo of Harry outside the pub with Lodge members around him. It's difficult to make out as its a photo of a photo that was sent to me by Harry's son.
I'll have a look at the Australian site later today. I'm off to Australia on Saturday as a matter of fact and am at least hoping to visit the area where Harry lived in Melbourne.
Thank you so much for your help.
Fiona
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Lucky you no overcoats for a while ;D
If you can work out a lodge where he stayed pop in about an hour before they meet and im sure you will find them very helpful (and friendly)
Good luck in your quest
Den
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Hi,
Well I looked on my Granddad's certificate and it says:
" Has been duly initiated into the mysteries and rituals of the Buffalos 14th April 1940" it has been signed by John Wilson, ROH Grand Sec and Harry Metcalf W.P.
It was in it's original tube an it was posted to King Charles Lodge 310 Wollaton Nottm.
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Hi,
Well I looked on my Granddad's certificate and it says:
" Has been duly initiated into the mysteries and rituals of the Buffalos 14th April 1940" it has been signed by John Wilson, ROH Grand Sec and Harry Metcalf W.P.
It was in it's original tube an it was posted to King Charles Lodge 310 Wollaton Nottm.
Hi
I just happen to have a Directory of 1940
The 310 King Charles lodge met at Rose & Crown Inn Alfreton Rd Nottingham on Sunday's
The lodge opened about 1899 but closed just before 1999.
I cant find the Nottingham Province website (seems to be taken over)
you could write to
The Provincial Grand Secretary
R A O B Club
Woodborough Rd
Nottingham
as the lodge didn't close that long ago they might have something about him.
Den
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Hi Whittenbury
Here is a picture of a couple of Buffs - would you be able to tell me anything about them? What order they may have belonged to? Any clues from the photo?
On the left is William Henry Smith born 1879 in Manchester. in 1901 he was living at Energy Street, Ancoats. I believe he worked at a place called Sutton & Co General Carriers - he was something to do with the horses - possibly a driver. Their address in 1927 was Pott Street Ancoats (but I don't now whether he worked there at the time). From 1827-1950 I have him living at Buckley Street, Reddish - which may have been Gorton, Manchester - or could have been known as part of Stockport (it's a rather confusing area). http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/Reddish/
So - I think a most likely area for his ROAB was in and around Gorton/Reddish - or possibly Openshaw, Denton or Levenshulme. Or his children still lived in Manchester - Phillips Park area - and he may have worked in Manchester so possibly around there.
Looking at the age of the photograph I guess he could be in his 50s which would put the date about the 1930s - so he would have been at the Buckley Street, Reddish address.
The man on the right is his brother Eli Smith (born about 1881). I don't have much information on his address or work but it is possible he was in the same line of work.
Would be great to find out more about them both.
Many thanks
Milly
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Hi Milly
could you have a look at the jewels with a magnifing glass (not sure if its lost a bit in copy) can you see any marks on the Jewel ribbons. I think its Grand Surrey Banner because neither seem to have GLE first degree jewel.
I will work out a bit more in the mean time
Den
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digging a bit deeper I dont think G surrey banner had lodges in stockport. I have trid emailing sec of Grand council Banner (who did have lodges there) but that bounced :(
I will persist though ;)
What I can tell you about the pic is
Eli Was the Sitting Primo of his lodge that month & as he seems to be wearing 3 jewels (the left one looks like a Primo jewel)
William is the City Marshal (his deputy if you like)
As they are wearing lodge regalia i would think the pic was taken in the garden of where they met (although his lodge may of taken regalia home but not the norm)
Maybe if i could see the jewels and the base of the collar might give a bit more
Den
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Thanks Whittinbury
This is the most original version I have before I cropped it to tidy the edges...it may be a little better. Will try to get a close up too
I will see if I can find a magnifying glass - or someone with better eyes than me - and get back to you!
Milly
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Its OK Milly
I think I was right with Grand Council Banner.
It took a while to find it but here goes
RAOB GC Stockport Province Reddish lodge , in 1956 were meeting Railway Hotel Gorton Rd Reddish Monday's 8pm. this was in 1956 but with a little more search might find earlier address.
Found the grand Council website
http://www.raobgc.org.uk/
nice site with some old journals on there I am sure if you contact them you might get lucky
Good hunting
Den
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Thanks -
So ..I presume that it was most likely they were members of the lodge nearest to where they lived?
When you say Grand Council Banner - what do you mean?
Will the jewel ribbons tell us any more do you think? I've posted it on the photo restoration board at http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=283221.new#new as you never know what they may be able to retrieve.
I had always thought that the photo was taken in their back garden - but odd if they were not supposed to take their regalia home. It doesn't look like the kind of garden they would have at the Railway Hotel - I doubt they would have had much of a garden at all.
Cheers for the info
Milly
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Hi Den - some sharper pix and close ups on this thread
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=283221.new#new
Milly
;D
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Hi Milly
Yes the Photo could be in their back garden. some lodges had no where safe to store items so the brothers kept hold of them (I am sorry if I missled you)
The scan is better and I still think its Grand Council Banner (Grand Lodge of England is the largest banner) but all the principles are the same. Also they can visit other lodges and other Banners.The only diffrence is the jewels and some of the rules and ceremonies
Have a look at that website there is a link to genral secretary I am sure he could help a bit more.
Let me know how you get on.
Den
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Thanks Den - will keep you posted
;D
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Hi!
My gx3 grandfather Herbert Wallwork (b. 1869 Kearsley, Lancs d. 1948 Chesterfield, Derbys) was apparently a member of the Chesterfield (Derbyshire) Order of the Buffaloes. Any information on him (if possible) would be gratefully recieved
Thankyou
Cezza
x
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Hi Whittenbury
I've just came across my gguncles Buffaloe medals, sash ets. He was a member of Collingwood No. 73 (in Victoria, Australia) r u in the UK? If not his name was Harry Parnell & got to KOM, I think it's 3rd decred in 1937 (the year he died), and I have a medal that says "Founder" as well. If you could point me in the right direction of who may have some infor on that lodge I'll be extremely grateful.
Thanks
Julie
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Hi!
My gx3 grandfather Herbert Wallwork (b. 1869 Kearsley, Lancs d. 1948 Chesterfield, Derbys) was apparently a member of the Chesterfield (Derbyshire) Order of the Buffaloes. Any information on him (if possible) would be gratefully recieved
Thankyou
Cezza
x
Cezza
Please forgive the lateness of this reply (I have not been on for a while) :(
This kind of request is pure pot luck if there any surviving records
What I would sugest is write to the P G Secretary of Chesterfield & Mansfield.
Bro R I Charlton 14 Ridge Close Sutton in Ashfield Notts NG17 2DF.
They do not have a website which usually makes life a lot easier .
Den
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Hi Whittenbury
I've just came across my gguncles Buffaloe medals, sash ets. He was a member of Collingwood No. 73 (in Victoria, Australia) r u in the UK? If not his name was Harry Parnell & got to KOM, I think it's 3rd decred in 1937 (the year he died), and I have a medal that says "Founder" as well. If you could point me in the right direction of who may have some infor on that lodge I'll be extremely grateful.
Thanks
Julie
Hi Julie
I am sorry but I dont have much on the Australian lodges.
I think your best start would be http://home.alphalink.com.au/~oldshep/lodgemeets.htm
Their are addresses on there that should be able to point you in the right direction!
The fact that he was a founder member of a lodge might mean their are a few more details to be found.
As I have said before their are not that many records kept and unless people have transcribed the minute books etc, even then you may only find little snippets of information :( (buy hey this is Genealogy anything s good ;))
sorry for the late reply
Den
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Hello Den
Just come across this thread...I don't normally stray far from the Armed Forces board!
Apparently my grandfather was a "big noise" in the Wood Green area ( North London) for the Buffs in the 1920s/30s/early 40s...
There was a story that his regalia was pawned on the monday and then secured back on the friday!
I know he drank at the original "Three Jolly Butchers" on Jolly Butcher Hill in Wood Green...
I did try and contact the Buffs a few years ago, but heard nothing in return :-\
Any pointers as to whom I should contact next pse?
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Hi Scrimnet
Not having much luck finding the lodge in Wood Green
I have checked Grand Middlesex Banner 1930
Grand lodge of England 1940
No lodges in Wood Green
I may be able to get a check on Grand Lodge England 1920 (after the weekend)
My guess he was in the Grand Executive Banner as they did have lodges in that part of town. The only problem is all their records were destroyed in a fire at Manor House years ago :(
I do have a few names of brothers that were founder members of lodges (but not many)
For him to pawn his jewels (brothers still use that excuse when they forget to bring their jewels to a lodge ;D ) My guess is they were Grand Exec because if he was high up he would have been a knight & the jewel is worth a few bob, they see on ebay for over hundred pound now! :o
I will attach a picture of mine so you can see what I mean (its the large cross one)
I will keep digging for you!
What was his name?
Den
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He was William Edward Victor Austin
Born Newton Abbott ?1902
Died Wood Green (?Edmonton) March 1945
He was a dyer and cleaner as his father and grandfather had been before him in Northampton
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Hi Scrimnet
I have now got a copy of the 1920 directory for GLE
Under the Metropolitan district of Grand Lodge
402 Ye Mitre Lodge met at the Jolly Butchers, Wood Green London N22.
The next directory I have is for 1936 but has the
402 Ye Mitre in Tottenham, under the control of the London Central Province
as far as I am aware the lodge closed before 1966 so I doubt if any records survive :(
I am still trying leads for the GEB & will let you know if anything comes up
Den
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Thanks for that Den...I await with anticipation.... ;)
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Hi Den, My grandad was in the Sir Claude Jullion Lodge no3319 . His name was Francis Charles Williams, think it would be in the 1950s onwards.
Can you tell me anything about it?
My dad has his sash. I emailed the Buffaloes a year or two ago and had no reply.
Thanks,
Kev.
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Hi Kev
The 3319 Sir Claude Jullion met at the George Inn, High St Shirehampton Bristol
in 1954 under the Bristol Province of GLE. by 1976 they were meeting at the English Rose Broadlands Drive, Lawrence Western Bristol 4
By 1987 the lodge had closed.
Sadly I cant find a website for Bristol Province :(
All I can suggest is Write to their P G Sec, Bro A J Miller 11 Brixham Rd, Bedminster, Bristol BS3 5LH (address as in 2005 directory)
They might have something.
But at least you know the pub he drank in ;) ask your dad what colour the sash is, then I can tell you what degree he was
Den
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Hi Den, Thanks for that. The sash is light blue.
That would be great if you know what degree he was.
Thanks again,
Kev. ;D
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Hi Kev
Light Blue means he was A "Roll of Honour" 4th Degree (the highest one)
this would have ment!
he was a Kangaroo for a minimum of 1 year
primo for a minimum of 3 years
& a knight order of Merit for a minimum of 5 years
so he was in the order a fair while.
Let me know how you get on
Den
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Hi Den,
Got some photos to show you/ ask about.
Don't know if there is anything else you can enlighten me with ;D
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Next ones
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Last one
second one has "primo" and " william morse lodge 2873" clasps and on back " bro Francis C Williams Raised 8-3-1948"
last one has 1st degree 5-5-22 and 2nd degree 8-3-48 clasps and on back " bro francis c williams William Morse lodge no2873 exalted 10-3-52
Kev
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Hi Ken
The jewel you do not have is his first degree Jewel, Not unusual as not all lodges buy a first degree one.(A pic of one should be attached)
The dark Blue one is his Primo's Jewel (2nd Degree) The Red one Knight Order of Merit (3rd Degree) The the Light Blue Sash & Collarette are his 4th Degee (Roll of Honour)
I noticed it took him 26 years to get his second degree, Some reasons this could be is he stopped going for a while or he had no interest in passing a sort of exam to prove you know the rules & could run a lodge, or he could have found t hard to pass.
I also noticed he changed lodges this is not unusual there could be loads of reasons. The William Morse Lodge was also in the Bristol Province.
Did you get any luck with the PG Sec ?
Den
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Hi Den, thanks for that, i think the gap is due to him serving in the army over that period and WWII.
I haven't written to the PG Sec yet, been very busy, will do soon though.
Thanks again.
Kev.
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Hi,
I've just been given a photograph of - well not necessarily an ancestor, but a possible family connection and I'm curious about a collar he has on. Would you be able to tell me if it has anything to do with the Buffaloes please? I've been told the collar is nothing to do with masons so I'm trying other groups.
Thanks for any help you can give.
Mary
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Hi Mary - That looks like a friendly society collar, maybe the Shepherds??
Whittenbury - My main interest is researching friendly and fraternal societies in staffordshie, particularly the Ancient Order of Druids.
I have struggled to make any real contacts with the Buffs here. Do you have any suggestions of who I could contact?
Cheers
Barry
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This is exactly what I have been looking for. It's my mum's 70th birthday in September and I'm doing her a family book.
My Grandfather died before I was born but he was a member of the Buffs. There is a problem with his name. He was suppose to be also a member of the Magic Circle, but they don't have any record of him.
His name was John George Thompson born Oct 19th 1884 and died May29th 1955. My mum always thought Rapier was used in his name but her half brother thought it was Ruttier.
I also know he use to work in Stol theatres as Melvo the Magician, Master of Mystic and Mirth. I'm sure my Mum has got a ring or something of his to do with the Buffs.
They mainly lived in the North East of England and North Yorkshire. If you have any information I would be so grateful.
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Barry, thanks for your interest, I've also been told it could be connected to an order of Good Templars, so still looking.
Mary
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Umm?? Hard to tell as there is not that much to give it away. Looks more likr Friendly Society regalia.
Where exactly is the picture from?
Regards
Barry
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Good Templar seems a reasonably strong possibility..... I did a bit of an image search and couldn't find any collars which looked like yours (masonic, oddfellows etc) - but then found this Good Templar one which is very similar.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0432/
http://www.blisworth.org.uk/images/Sunmoonstars.htm
Do you know anything about him? Was he temperance? Or a Baptist?
Photo was taken in St Helens so maybe there was a local Good Templar group nearby.
Milly
;D
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Hi Milly
That may well be the case although those type of collars were used by other societies. The letters "PNG" are "Past Noble Grand" a title for the Chairperson of the Lodge. This was most often used by the Oddfellows and taken up by other friendly and fraternal societies.
Regards
Barry
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Thanks for your interest, especially those links Milly, it does look similar doesn't it?
I emailed a number of societies, replies said definitely not Oddfellows or Masons, but the Knights Templar thought it looked like the Good Templars, in fact they were fairly sure of it, so I've emailed to Sweden - hoping they can read my English ;D but as yet not received any reply.
Unfortunately the photograph was amongst an album believed to be of family, and indeed there is resemblance to some of the other pictures enough to believe that he is related, but so far we've been unable to identify who he is, reason for trying to trace the collar.
Mary
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Hi Scrimnet
Not having much luck finding the lodge in Wood Green
I have checked Grand Middlesex Banner 1930
Grand lodge of England 1940
No lodges in Wood Green
I may be able to get a check on Grand Lodge England 1920 (after the weekend)
My guess he was in the Grand Executive Banner as they did have lodges in that part of town. The only problem is all their records were destroyed in a fire at Manor House years ago :(
I do have a few names of brothers that were founder members of lodges (but not many)
For him to pawn his jewels (brothers still use that excuse when they forget to bring their jewels to a lodge ;D ) My guess is they were Grand Exec because if he was high up he would have been a knight & the jewel is worth a few bob, they see on ebay for over hundred pound now! :o
I will attach a picture of mine so you can see what I mean (its the large cross one)
I will keep digging for you!
What was his name?
Den
I'm really sorry if this sounds stupid, but I know nothing about the Buffs so I'm having a bit of trouble understanding all the posts.
The third medal in your picture (the big cross) - What was it called and what does it stand for?
I've been trying to identify the medals in this photo of my Great-Great Grandfather John "Jack" Hainsworth (1846-1912). The one in the centre looks very similar to your cross.
I don't really have anything else other than this photo. I know he was a weaver in North Brierly, Yorkshire from the censuses.
Do you happen to recognise the other two medals?
I really do appreciate any insight you can offer, as I'm a bit lost as to where I can start researching this.
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Hi folks,
I wonder if anyone can help me with my GG Grandfather, whose photo shows him in full regalia, none of which I understand.
Can anyone tell me anything about what the various insignia are and what they mean?
Many thanks
Martin
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Hi,
A Buffaloe's medal has been turned up in a relatives house and we think we know whose it is..
It was given to Frederick Hogton KOM, co founder of Royal Lodge 3347 in 1922.
Any idea where we can find out more?
Thank you
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Hi there
I am trying to find more information on "Bro J DAVIDSON".
I have his Attendance Jewel dated July 1 1903. Birmingham Lodge XI.
The Jewel came with medals to "John Davidson" from the Boer War, where he served with New Zealand Troops and from WW I when he served with South African Troops. This John Davidson was born in New Zealand.
I suspect that the Jewel was John Davison's father's - John Davidson (NZ) would not have been in Birmingham long enough (if ever) to warrant the award of the jewel. What length of time was required to win the award ?
Is there any way of contacting the Lodge XI, if indeed it still exists? And, of course, any possible info for the Birmingham J. Davidson.
Any assistance or pointers greatly appreciated.
Regards
Graeme McLeod
(*)
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
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Any information on Alexander Wilson Nesbitt (b. Armagh 1870, d. Greenock 1940) would be welcome. Relations in Greenock, where he died, say that he was a Buffalo member and that there was a lodge named after him in Newcastle on Tyne/Northumberland, where he used to live. Could you find out if that is so? He was apparently made a Knight of the order as well, which might help to trace him.
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could you tell me anything about my grandfather, I have a picture of him on
'men in aprons' however as a novice on the computer I cannot seem to get the picture to come up again.
the details are as follows:- Henry James Green
ABERY LODGE
No. 8240
K.O.M.
I know nothing about the society, just hope you can help,
adge
Moderator Comment: For information, adge654 is referring to this topic 'men in aprons'
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,346735.0.html
Dawn
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I'm trying to find info on my paternal side of the family particularly about my grandfather, bro George Laybourn R.O.H. I was told he was a Grand Primo, but I haven't been able to find anything on any websites. Sorry I don't have much details with regards date of birth etc all I know is he died in 1958 the and lived in Sunderland which was then County Durham. I also have a watch fob chain with a medalion ROH & Latin motto on the front. Engraved on the back is BRO G. Laybourn R.O.H. 16th Dec 1951. Any information would be great or even a pointer as to where I could find anything about him.
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Hi Sandie
Certainly if your ancestor was Grand Primo he should be fairly easy to track down.
Can I suggest that you contact the Buffs museum (Stan Stirman) which is housed in Harrogate. Stan is also from the NE.
Try:
Museum.Curator (at) raobgle.org.uk
Replace (at) with @
PLease let me know how you get on.
Regards
Barry
Moderator Comment: email address edited in accordance with Rootschat policy to prevent spam.
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Hi...Can anyone tell me anything about the regalia worn here.....what order/degree.......not sure of the date of the photo but it is my Grandfather who was born in 1875 St. John's Newfoundland...I emailed this to the grand Lodge of Newfoundland & Labrador but didn't didn't get a reply :-\
Any help would be much appreciated.
Thanks ~ Carol
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Looks Masonic to me. Possibly Knights Templar although I'm not familiar with it?
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Thanks for the info I will certainly try that
Hi Sandie
Certainly if your ancestor was Grand Primo he should be fairly easy to track down.
Can I suggest that you contact the Buffs museum (Stan Stirman) which is housed in Harrogate. Stan is also from the NE.
Try:
Museum.Curator (at) raobgle.org.uk
Replace (at) with @
PLease let me know how you get on.
Regards
Barry
Moderator Comment: email address edited in accordance with Rootschat policy to prevent spam.
Barry, thanks so much for the contact name I will let you know how I get on. Much appreciated Sandie
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Thanks for that Barry :D
Carol
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I'm trying to find info on my paternal side of the family particularly about my grandfather, bro George Laybourn R.O.H. I was told he was a Grand Primo, but I haven't been able to find anything on any websites. Sorry I don't have much details with regards date of birth etc all I know is he died in 1958 the and lived in Sunderland which was then County Durham. I also have a watch fob chain with a medalion ROH & Latin motto on the front. Engraved on the back is BRO G. Laybourn R.O.H. 16th Dec 1951. Any information would be great or even a pointer as to where I could find anything about him.
Hi Sandie,
I'm not sure how much you've found out since you posted this, but I've checked GLE records and there is no G. Laybourn listed as a Grand Primo there, which means he may have been GP in one of the other banners.
is the latin motto on the fob "Nemo Mortalium Omnibus Horis Sapit"?
Regards,
Kevin
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Hi Kevin
Haven't found much unfortunately. I emailed the museum in Harrogate but haven;t had a reply yet.
The latin motto on the fob is "Palma Non Sine Pulvere" and if it helps you my grandfather lived in Sunderland.
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Hi Sandie....It translates to "Victory not without toil"
Carol
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Hi Sandie....It translates to "Victory not without toil"
Carol
Hi Carol
Thanks for the translation.
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Hi Sandie,
I believe the museum at Harrogate is only GLE specific, so it may be a dead avenue.
I'll check with some of my contacts in other banners to see if they can shed any light on the fob for you.
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I wonder if anyone has any information about a lodge in St Ives, Cornwall or a town near there. My grandfather was a member. He died in 1973 so its quite a long time ago. I'm trying to find out if they have any information about him and what he did, and when he became a member etc. I would appreciate anything anyone can get for me.
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Hi
Do you happen to know the Lodge name by any chance?
St Eia 8651 and Sir Henry Irving Lodge 9079 both still meet in St Ives.
Regards
Barry
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Hi Sandie,
I believe the museum at Harrogate is only GLE specific, so it may be a dead avenue.
I'll check with some of my contacts in other banners to see if they can shed any light on the fob for you.
Thanks Kevin I really do appreciate it
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My grandfather William Henry Bolton Wroe, was a Buff. I did have a wonderful photo of him in his regalia. Sadly, due to a fire at the family home a lot of items were lost. I know he lived in the Ardwick district of Manchester, Gomm Steet to be precise, he died in 1930 aged 86. If there is any information regarding a possible lodge in that area at that time, I would appreciate it.
Many thanks
Melidon
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It appears that my great grandfather may have been a member of the order of the Buffaloes. His name is Thomas Pointon and lived in Brown Edge, Staffordshire. Any info would be appriciated.
Thanks, Charlotte
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Don't know about Lodge in Brown Edge but there were lodges certainly in Leek. Any idea where he might have been a member?
Barry
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No,sorry ,I've no idea which one he belonged to
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Shame.
The main lodges in Leek were 'Leek and Moorlands' 4996 and 'Pride of the Moorlands' 9015
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Hi Den
I wonder if you could help me? A few weeks ago I emailed someone in the R.A.O.B, but have not had a reply yet. I know my grandfather, Ernest Praid (born 29/4/1888) was in the R.A.O.B, but would like to try and find out more. I have no idea which lodge he was with and what his title was. He was born in London but left home at 10, living in Wales (1911 census) then moving on to Shropshire (was in WW1), Yorkshire and then Kent. If you need any more info, I can elaborate. In the photo I am attaching, he is sitting 2nd from the left with CH on his "apron". He actually took this photograph with the aid of a timer. I have no idea what year this was taken. Any help would be much appreciated.
Kind regards
Jacqui
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It's actually a 'CM' ie City Marshall.
The venue looks bit like Grove House in Harrogate which is the HQ of the RAOB. It might be his Lodge met there or had gone there on a visit. Much more than that I can't really tell. Hope it helps.
Have look at http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.raob.info/images/grovehouse.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.raob.info/grove_house.htm&usg=__WBTAj5X0FE3oKcjKRgZPkeqne1Q=&h=275&w=750&sz=97&hl=en&start=8&tbnid=VvJwkbCRHBiL6M:&tbnh=52&tbnw=141&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dgrove%2Bhouse%2Bharrogate%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den
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Hello
I have recently discovered that my great-grandfather was a member of the RAOB, and I have now been sent the attached photographs of a medal/jewel (sorry, I don't know the distinction!) which is in the possession of my mother's cousin.
I have been reading about the RAOB, and its history, and have been looking for similar items on sites like e-bay, but I have not yet had any luck finding out more about this particular medal/jewel, or about the likely background to my great-grandfather's membership.
I cannot make out the entire inscription on the reverse, other than "presented by.... to Bro. William Jones, Dec 18, 1895". My great-grandfather was born in 1863, and went to work in the shipyard in Millwall (Isle of Dogs/Poplar) in the mid-1880s, working there until his death in 1900. (Incidentally, William Jones was the name by which he was known at the time, although it was not his real name!) He lived in Millwall, but I don't know where the nearest lodge would have been. I'm thinking somewhere in Poplar... does anyone know if there was one there?
Any help, hints, etc, would be gratefully received.
Many thanks,
Siobhan
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Hello
I wonder if anyne can help me with this picture. My gt grandfather is seated second from left on the front row.
I am not sure when this photo was taken, or where. He lived in Kent (Canterbury and Sheppey) before moving to Southampton, Hampshire.
There seems to be a picture of a buffalo on the aprons; I am curious to discover what the varying initials represent on the 'banners' around their necks.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thank you
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Wonderful Pic!
I can certainly explain the collars of office for you.
Your GGF was CW (City Waiter) for the month and as such would see that all members had refreshments available.
On his right is the City Secretary, responsible for the lodge's administration.
on his left is the Sitting Primo, who would have been in the chair of the lodge for the month.
next is the City Marshal, who would assist the SP in his duties.
then we have the City Tyler, would would allow entrance to latecomers after checking credentials.
Second left in the second row is the City Registrar, responsible for collecting regidtration fees and seeing that the members sign in.
next to him is the City Chamberlain, who would see that all members are properly attired and would act as a kind of Maitre'D within the lodge.
two along from him is the City Treasurer, who, as the name suggests, would be in charge of lodge finances.
Standing beside him is the City Minstrel, who would lead the lodge in singing the toast to absent brethren and the National Anthem.
the two officers in the back row are the City Constable, responsible for collecting ant fines imposed by the Sitting Primo, and the Alderman of Benevolence, responsible for recommending any payment to a brother in need. The AB would traditionally be the previous month's Sitting Primo.
Hope this helps, and if you have any other questions I'll do my best to answer them for you.
Kevin
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Crikey - that info is brilliant.
So is this a Buffalo Lodge? Is there any way I could find out which Lodge this was? That way I would be able to pinpoint when the picture was taken.
How would the system work, if he moved from one part of the country to another, would he automatically be accepted into another Lodge?
From your post it sounds like they only held posts for a month, were/are there people who held posts longer and would these posts be voted on by other members or were they taken in turn?
Sorry so many questions, but this is all very new to me.
Thank you.
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Hi oban
Yes it is most definitely a Buffalo lodge, and the only way to find out which one this might be would be if you could get hold of any jewels he may have been presented, and check any inscriptions on them.
If a buff moves around the country, they can go to any buff lodge and would be welcomed, even if just for single visit. If he relocated permanently he could transfer to a lodge in his new area and any voting standing he may have had in his previous lodge could also be transferred.
Most of the offices are held on a monthly basis, voted by the brothers, except for the trustees, secretary and treasurer. Those particular offices are called "will and pleasure" offices and the same brother can hold them for as long as the other brothers of the lodge are happy for them to do so.
Kevin
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Hello
I'm still trying to find out something about my great-grandad's involvement in the Buffaloes (in the Poplar area of London, I am assuming), and am still making no headway.
If anyone recognises the type of medal/ribbon in the photos I posted (just a few messages back), and can shed light on 'where' etc, I would be very, very thrilled.
Many thanks,
Siobhan
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Hi Siobhan,
I had a closer look at the pictures you posted, and although I don't recognise the actual Jewel I think it may well have been awarded to him for Services to the lodge, or possibly as a personal gift from another brother.
I'm not familiar with the history of lodges in the east end, but may be able to check with older brothers, though I doubt I will have much luck given the fact that this is over a century ago!
Be prepared for a bit more of a wait, and also, is it possible to get a clearer pic of the inscription on the reverse, this may allow me to work out the other name :)
Regards,
Kevin
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Many thanks for your reply, Kevin.
I haven't come across any mention of a lodge in the Poplar area, either, so far... but I'll keep my fingers crossed that some info will turn up!
I'll try and get hold of a clearer image... unfortunately the jewel is currently in a nursing home in Ireland (!), so isn't easily accessible. Maybe some more work on Photoshop will throw up some more detail... I'll have a go!
Well, even if I never manage to find out any more about my great-grandad's involvement, at least it has been very interesting reading all the information about the RAOB, of which I previously knew nothing.
Thanks again.
Best wishes
Siobhan
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My Dad, John Kenneth Wagstaff was a member of the Elm Tree Lodge , they me t at the Cocked Hat pub in Broxtowe , Nottingham .I have photo of him in his regalia also christmas 1959 buffs children's party with me and my sisters and brother . Every year they held a party for members children and through the year took us all on trips to skeggy or the zoo .I wonder if there are more photographs in the lodges archives that are available.
Marie
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I am looking to trace back information about my grandfathers involvement in the RAOB. His name was Brother Herbert G. Ward and would have spent time in lodge 2319 from 1966 onwards. Much of his involvement was based in Derby, East Midlands. I have various medals for services and if anyone can shed some light on any background history or information, that would be much appreciated.
Regards
Mike
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Hi Mike,
If you can post pics of the jewels I'll do my best to identify and give you the background for why he would have recieved them.
It would also be useful for tracing his buffalo career as they would normally have dates and lodge names inscribed.
Regards
Kevin
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I've been trying to identify the medals in this photo of my Great-Great Grandfather John "Jack" Hainsworth (1846-1912). The one in the centre looks very similar to your cross.
I don't really have anything else other than this photo. I know he was a weaver in North Brierly, Yorkshire from the censuses.
Do you happen to recognise the other two medals?
I really do appreciate any insight you can offer, as I'm a bit lost as to where I can start researching this.
Can I post this again just in case anyone has any suggestions?
My local RAOB lodge thinks the middle jewel means he was a knight. They don't think the lodge he attended exists anymore, so I'm not sure where to look now.
Do the other jewels look familiar to anyone?
(http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=279830.0;id=106148)
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Please find a photograph of my Granddads certificate, I was informed my Granddad used to go to the Grove Public House on Canal Street Nottingham for his meetings.
Hopefull Geoff
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Hi if anyone on here would like any info on the buffaloes just post on here and I will see what I can get for you (prob not a lot) but could lead you in the right direction .
What I do have are records of where lodge met the Lodge name and number,
so if you find some old jewels or papers from your family just ask.
I am a member of the order and try to record items of intrest for the future
Den
or my title
Bro Den Whittenbury R O H.
PS if I dont reply within a couple of days PM me ;)
I'm new to this site so I hope you will bear with me. I have posted a message on Page 8 at the bottom Charles Darney, If you could read it and let me know if you can help. Thanks Geoff Hall
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Hello
I have always suspected that my grandfather John Mason b 1889 Derbyshire d 1944 Doncaster was a member of the RAOB.He wore a badge on his jacket but for all I know he may have nicked it since much I know about him is not true
I believe he may have attended a branch at Penistone Yorkshire which may tie in with The Spread Eagle pub which was run by my ancestors The Singletons in the 1900's.Might he have been recruited during WW1
How can I check.Does a secret sociaty publish a list of its past dead members ????
Thanks
Paul
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My maternal great-grandfather Wilfred Donkersley was a member of the RAOB, Hand o'Friendship Lodge, Stocksbridge, WRY. My paternal grandad Jack Pearson was a member of a (different) local lodge that met in another local pub in the village, the Castle Inn. You will find that a lot of these RAOB groups met in pubs. In fact my father tells me that their other name was - apologies - the Rat Arsed Old Buggers. Or, more politely, the Boozy Buffs. But I think this discredits the very good work that they did.
Somewhere I have a photo of the Sheffield RAOB HQ decorated for a Royal Visit. I have his jewels and some lovely photos of regalia sent to me by another researcher if anyone wants me to post them.
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Hi Claire,
Believe it or not to some of our wives/girlfriends, we're STILL known as the Boozy Buffs!
Would love to see the pics you have, might even be able to identify them for others who may have similar and wonder what they are :)
Regards
Kevin
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OK, I will sort all the photos out tomorrow and post them - been on the homebrew tonight, which must make boozing part of the family! My ancestors were also maltsters and brewers as well as boozers, so I am at the mercy of my genes!
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This is one of the jewels:
W. Donkersley C.P.
1st Degree 21 April 1915
2nd Degree 18 August 1916
Royal Antediluvian Order of Buffaloes
nemo mortalium omnibus horis sapit
[no man is wise for all his life/no man is at all times wise - I think]
Reverse: K.O.M. 1919
This order of Merit and Honor [sic] of Knighthood was conferred on W. Donkersley C.P. by the members of the Hand o’Friendship Lodge no. 649 in recognition of his services in the cause of Buffaloism and their esteem & regard for him as a man. 9 July 1919.
(http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj161/emeraldclaire/DSC01770.jpg)
(http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj161/emeraldclaire/DSC01775.jpg)
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This one says:
Hand of Friendship Lge 649
R.A.O.B. Justice, Truth, Philanthropy [their general motto]
Reverse: Presented to Primo Wilfred Donkersley Sept 27 1916
(http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj161/emeraldclaire/DSC01771.jpg)
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Harrogate Convention G.L.E. Delegate 1919
Reverse: W. Donkersley K.O.M.
(http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj161/emeraldclaire/DSC01772.jpg)
(http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj161/emeraldclaire/DSC01774.jpg)
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And this one was also amongst the jewels, but I don't know if it was Wilfred's, it isn't engraved. He did have another man's jewel, but that one is at the bottom of the chest and I can't be bothered to go hunting for it at the moment.
Founder, Pride of Thurgoland (nearby village), not engraved with a name. I think this Lodge met at the Horse and Jockey Inn
(http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj161/emeraldclaire/DSC01769.jpg)
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These were sent to me several years ago by a Mr. Richmond, from the belongings of James John Casey (1883-1927), Prince Edward Lodge.
(http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj161/emeraldclaire/RAOB2.jpg)
(http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj161/emeraldclaire/RAOB3.jpg)
(http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj161/emeraldclaire/RAOB4.jpg)
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And here's the Sheffield Privincial HQ of the RAOB in West Street, decorated for the visit of the Prince of Wales (later King George) to open Sheffield University Library in April 1909.
(http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj161/emeraldclaire/RAOB1.jpg)
I hope these are of interest to you all
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Hello
My problam is I dont know much about my grand father a John Mason and have hit a very dead end
I dont know for certain even where he was born apart from Derbyshire in 1889
He met my grand mother in Penistone abt 1919 but never married her, hence the start of my problems
I am told he was in the buffaloes and this is the last lead I have in trying to pin him down
Can anybody tell me where would the best place to start in contacting the "Buffs"
Do they have an arhcive that is open to outside visitors that might tell me where he was born
A long shot, I know !!!!
Thanks for any help you can give
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the RAOB don't keep genealogical information on members, so unfortunately they wouldn't be able to assist in finding out where he was born. My suggestion would be to check out a site like ancestry.co.uk if you haven't already done so.
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Hi
Unfortunaly the Roab were just about the only avenue left.Shame !!!
I am a member of most sites and have been looking for him for 6 years .I have tried most things but I believe his trail has gone cold by now
The family tree looks rather lop sided when one branch stops at your grand father
Thanks anyway
Paul
PS Does anybody want to adopt him !!!!!!
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Paulma, I appreciate your problem! I was told that my grandfather was in the Buffaloes and I have made various enquiries with a nil result.
Kooky
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sorry, did it twice :-[
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As far as I know, the GLE HQ does not hold any 'modern' records for its members. Wilfred Donkersley was a member c1915 onwards, and when I wrote to them they said that they did not have more recent records. I will try and find the letter and confirm this.
By the way, can anyone shed any light on an intriguing entry I found recently in 'The Penistone Almanac' for 1924. It reports that when Penistone grocer Mr. Fred Marsh died, he was ‘buried in accordance with the rites of the R.A.O.B. of which he was a Primo. Bro.’
How would someone be buried 'in accordance with the rites of the R.A.O.B.'?
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Hi Clair
A bit of the subject of the RAOB but What is the Penistone Gazette.I am researching Penistone as back ground material to my grandfather in the very slim hope that he was infamous enough to get a mention in an old newspaper
Thanks
Paul
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Hi
Where do you live? Stocksbridge Library archives hold copies of The Penistone Almanac - they have an incomplete run from 1900-1958.
They are fascinating - lots of information on Penistone and the surrounding area including Stocksbridge, Deepcar and Bolsterstone. They have all the usual almanac stuff as well as photographs, marriages & burials at local churches, wills, local events, accidents, sudden deaths etc. There are lots of instances of accidents at the steelworks for example. Through these I found out that Wilfred Donkersley's brother was involved in a motorbike accident.
There was also a weekly newspaper, the Penistone, Stocksbridge and Hoyland Gazette and a Penistone Express. One of these was, I think, later called the South Yorkshire Times. I have seen these on microfilm at Sheffield local studies library.
I imagine that Barnsley archives would also hold copies.
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Thanks
I live in Reading Berks so its a bit hard for me but I plan a trip in the new year
Some children in the family didnt get on very well with John Mason ( their own father)
They moved as far away as possible from him when their mother died in 1940 My own father ended up at AWRE Aldermaston in Berkshire which is why I was born here .He had a tough childhood
John Mason was rather infamous (at least in our family) for his exploits as a womaniser heavy drinker and lazy layabout who never had a job and was always broke.He was also on the run from his wifes family for deserting her and setting up house with my grandmother Agnes Singleton in Penistone after 1919 (the "other "woman whom he never married)
Nice bloke !!!!!!!
Strange how he became a member of the RAOB when his charactor was so bad.I wonder what was his motivation for joining - maybe just prestige, booze...... and a new line of credit but what else would he get by being a member when he was so poor and didnt pay his dues
He must have lied on the application form if they have such a thing. He did rather talk a good game
Does anybody have an opinion on how and why Buffs were recruited after WW1 What were they looking for in new recruits Were the applications checked and vetted and what is the process
Can you be expelled from the RAOB and what would it take to do that
Thanks Paul
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Fascinating!
I used to live in Windsor and then Bracknell and used the LDS Family History centre in Reading. Just a thought- would they be able to get filmed copies of newspapers etc? I was always amazed at what WAS available. Might be worth asking. I still have some Almanacs to look at, so I will look out for your errant ancestor!
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i would appreciate info on my fathers association with the buffs within the london area from 1950s onwards can anyone assist .
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his name was harry pamment from paddington london i understand was either a grand primo or deputy many thanks.
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I have a meddle my wife got from her grandad PRIMO. F.C.PAYNE HOMERTON LODGE No.2195.
12th jan 1948. 1st degree 10th Aug 1924
2nd degree 06th Sep 1926
3rd degree 12th Jan 1948
He and some else used to have an act called the Webbs dress up with black face the other had suite and top hat, Can you find anything abought them please
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i went to grand lodge they didnt help me much tho have u tried local press helps
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Here is my grandfathers certificate ......
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Hi All,
The following photo was found when my great aunt died (we don't know who it is or when it was taken) and on the photo board they mentioned that it was a Buffalo sash being worn. Are there any clues as to when it might have been taken? Also what to the initials on the sash and apron stand for, I guess SP is Sitting Primo?
Any help would be really appreciated.
Mark
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I would imagine that the regalia didn't change much over the years, so your best bet might be to trace the photographic studio through street and trade directories. I did this with an undated portrait, and got it to within 5 years, settling on the date my ancestor opened his own shop.
I'm afraid I don't know what SP means. I have a photo of regalia with the SP on both the sash and the sleeve cuffs. The awards are:
1. Firstly, the Kangaroo, or initiatory membership
2. Then comes the Certified Primo, C.P., meaning a member who had passed an examination on how to chair and keep a Lodge in proper running order. This cannot be acquired before one year’s membership.
3. The Knight Order of Merit, K.O.M., can be obtained after at least three years as a C.P.
4. Finally, the Roll of Honour Member, R.O.H., can be obtained after five years as a K.O.M.
The letters K and M appear on the apron, so I am surmising this means Knight Order of Merit.
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I've asked this before, but didn't get a reply. It concerns an entry Iin 'The Penistone Almanac' for 1924 which reports that when Penistone grocer Mr. Fred Marsh died, he was ‘buried in accordance with the rites of the R.A.O.B. of which he was a Primo. Bro.’
How would someone be buried 'in accordance with the rites of the R.A.O.B.'?
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Hi Claire,
Thanks for the info. I think that SP stands for Sitting Primo.
Mark
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Hi Whittenbury
I've just been directed to this thread. I hope you may be able to help me find some information about my Grandfather.
My Grandfather, Bro Albert William Hoare was a member of Marlborough Lodge 2130.
I would like to know if this Lodge still exists and if so where. He lived in Lambeth and Harrow, if that is any clue to the location of the Lodge.
I have a medal awarded to him for Attendance dated 15th November 1928 when he would have been 60 years old.
If you have any information about him or the Lodge I would be pleased to receive it.
Regards
Dave
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Hi. I wonder if members of this forum can help... The attached photo shows a group of men incuding, on the left end of the front row, my Great Grandfather. According to family legend they are "Buffaloes".
The photo was probably taken sometime in the early 20th Century - after 1904 (which is about when my GGF came to London from Poland). He lived for a few years in Stepney and later moved to Maida Vale, so this photo was probably taken in one of those areas. The sashes bear titles such as Treasurer, President, Vice President, Secretary, Guardian; on the right side of each sash are letters which may be D'HL? and on the left side No.8.
Apart from the photo I have no other related artefacts.
Could this be a RAOB lodge? If so is there any way I can find out more about these gentlemen?
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Hi All,
Has anyone had any luck in contacting the RAOB about their ancestors. I would like to try and find out who the person is in my earlier photo which I believe was taking some time around the start of the 20th century.
Regards,
Mark
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Hi!
I'm researching my family tree and I'm trying to find out which lodge my great grandfather was a member of, I think he may have been a Primo (is that the right word?).
His name was George Beaney Crawford born 1892 and would have attended a lodge in the South Northumberland / Newcastle area.
I'd really appreciate any help ?
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I have some RAOB regalia used by my father and my brother. They belonged to local lodge I would like to sell or pass to someone who would like them. Can you help?
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Hi, My father and my brother where Buffs and attended a local lodge. My dad died inthe sixties but I have regalia and medals etc. Can you give me info on local lodges in South East Wales, I would like to get in touch for some explanations. Paperback
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Hi whittenbury -
My grandfather (William George Rogers 1902-1991) was in the Buffs at Chatham, Kent.
Am rummaging around for dates but possibly 1960s/70s, maybe even a little earlier.
If I find anything, will get back to you, but am hoping you may be able to help with records.
This is him.....
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Having read through the posts on this site, I can see there are a number of photographs posted, If anyone has any information or photographs of my great grandfather, Alexander Ferguson who was a member of the RAOB in 1918 and attended lodge No 77 Oliver Cromwell Lodge, I would be grateful to receive it.
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I believe I have come onto possession of the medal on the left in the picture of John "Jack" Hainsworth/ It is still in its presentation box. It was issued in March 1894 according to the inscription on the rear.
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Hi if anyone on here would like any info on the buffaloes just post on here and I will see what I can get for you (prob not a lot) but could lead you in the right direction .
What I do have are records of where lodge met the Lodge name and number,
so if you find some old jewels or papers from your family just ask.
I am a member of the order and try to record items of intrest for the future
Den
or my title
Bro Den Whittenbury R O H.
PS if I dont reply within a couple of days PM me ;)
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Hi,
I have a medal dated 1897 presented to my GG Grandfather. This is an order of Merit and Honor of knighthood.
The Lodge is inscribed as the Royal Victoria Lodge, probably Stoke-on-Trent, North Staffordshire.
He was given a "buffaloes funeral" and I'm told that the officials from the Grand Lodge attended the funeral in 1920 but have been unable to find out what this means. His name is George Atkin(s).
Do you have any details about the Lodge that would help please.
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Please can you help?
I am hoping you can help with my inquiry or point me in the right direction,
My grand father mentions in a letter that his father was a Primo in the ROAB and that he had a 'grand funeral' befitting a high well thought of person within that organization.
The person's name was William Jermin, Jermyne, or Jones, born 1857. The funeral took place in 1916, Mountain Ash, Glamorganshire.
His death occurred, apparently, whilst working down coal pit.
best regards,
Steve Coe
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Hi, can you help me to trace where the Formidable Lodge was? My grandfather, Walter Morgan 1895-1958 was a member of this lodge. His sash shows KOM. Any help would be appeciated.
(http://)
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Hi. My father was a member of the grand lodge england. the name of the lodge is harmony and the number is 7702, his name was William G Mawdsley. Can anyone give me more information on him or the lodge. Thanks Vivien Mawdsley.
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I am guessing that the 'Lodge' info is not for giving on this thread.....
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Hi,
I have a medal dated 1897 presented to my GG Grandfather. This is an order of Merit and Honor of knighthood.
The Lodge is inscribed as the Royal Victoria Lodge, probably Stoke-on-Trent, North Staffordshire.
He was given a "buffaloes funeral" and I'm told that the officials from the Grand Lodge attended the funeral in 1920 but have been unable to find out what this means. His name is George Atkin(s).
Do you have any details about the Lodge that would help please.
hi Yes the Royal Victoria is in the North Staffs Province
The Lodge is still going meets at Coronation Club Mulgrave st Cobridge Stoke on Trent.
http://northstaffsprovince.orgfree.com/
Not sure they will have records that far back but you may find something of use
Den
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Hi, can you help me to trace where the Formidable Lodge was? My grandfather, Walter Morgan 1895-1958 was a member of this lodge. His sash shows KOM. Any help would be appeciated.
(http://)
Hi the only thing I can find on that name is in Bristol but closed by the early 60's so not a lot can be found.
Den
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Hi. My father was a member of the grand lodge england. the name of the lodge is harmony and the number is 7702, his name was William G Mawdsley. Can anyone give me more information on him or the lodge. Thanks Vivien Mawdsley.
Hi The Harmony 7702 was in the Luton Province but closed by 1993
you could try http://www.lutonanddistrict-pgl.org.uk/
Den
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Hi all,
Have recently been thru my fathers estate and have found regalia of ROAB. We believe this maybe from the Plymouth branch, with markings of both Sir Francis and Argyle Lodge. There is also a medal with Sir G Howard on it. This was my mothers maiden name.
I would be grateful for any info.
I could post a picture if it would help.
grandadsmedals
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HI
I am hoping to find out some information on my gggrandfather who i believe was a member of RAOB initially in Douglas IOM and later on in Newcastle upon Tyne .
His name was William COTTIER born 1854 in Douglas IOM he came to Newcastle some time after 1910 living in the Elswick area and died in 1927 in Newcastle . I have a photo of him in all his regalia (cuffs apron and chest piece - sorry i dont know all the correct names - i only just found out it was RAOB initially thinking it was Masons !!!)
Hope that is enough information just wish i could upload the photo but its too large
Heres hoping ......
Bellababy
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Hopefully someone will be able to give me a little info about the regalia worn in the pic below - originally from the Isle of Man and later moved to Newcastle upon Tyne.
Hope everyones had a good xmas.
Thanks Bellababy
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another attempt
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Hi,I'm trying to find out about my grandfather,John Cowen(b1903 Canada d1952 Carlisle UK) I believe he was a member of the Carlisle Buffs & had some medals but these where never claimed when he died!where could I go to find out about his time in the Buffs?
Thanks
Philip
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I am interested to know more about my grandfather Edward Thomas Cowdrey who was in the buffs in Egypt and Palestine in the 1920's. He was KOM and PEP. I am not sure what PEP means. I will try and attach a photo.
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I have a note on my father's record:
"27-1-39 Dad initiated (96367) into RAOB, Blue Nile Lodge – No 6310"
I recall him having a medal that was (I think) white and silver with a bit of blue, on a ribbon.
Can you enlarge at all?
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I am interested to know more about my grandfather Edward Thomas Cowdrey who was in the buffs in Egypt and Palestine in the 1920's. He was KOM and PEP. I am not sure what PEP means. I will try and attach a photo.
It looks like PGP to me or is it my glasses? (not that I know what PGP is either) 8)
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Hi, I'm trying to find information about my great-grandfather. My mum has a medal presented to Bro. Percy A. Wilkinson, the letters look like CP - could that be GP? Walverden Lodge 4781, 13th November 1932. She also has a pin which says Primo, and a rather scrappy blue ribbon with the letters GLE.
He lived in Padiham, then Nelson, Lancashire, before moving to Morecambe after surviving being struck by lightning. I can remember big buffalo horns over the fireplace from when I was a child, but he died in about 1946 so that's well before my time.
Can anyone help?
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hi,
My great grandad was Edward Lynch born 1866 Huddersfield. He lived in Lowerplace Castleton Rochdale until approx 1905 and then moved to Middleton Manchester. We were told he was a buffalo member.
Please see attached pic of him. Any info of where they met or anything else would be great.
Thanks
IT WILL NOT LET ME ATTACH THE PHOTO - TOO LARGE - NEVER MIND
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Does anyone actually reply to these??
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another attempt
Hi Bellababy
I am sorry I have not been on here for a while :'(
The Regalia is Buffaloes, but I cant see any markings on it.
As he lived in Newcastle it is hard to work out what lodge he was a member of as there are so many.
All I can offer is a couple of links to the provinces he would have been a member of.
Isle of Man
http://isle-of-man-pgl.com/
Northumberland & N E Durum
http://www.raob.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=90&Itemid=108
You may find something on those
Den
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I am interested to know more about my grandfather Edward Thomas Cowdrey who was in the buffs in Egypt and Palestine in the 1920's. He was KOM and PEP. I am not sure what PEP means. I will try and attach a photo.
Hi Nerilka
Sorry for the delay not been on for a while.
I can see from the pic He was a PGP (Provincial Grand Primo) for the Egypt Province. This was the highest honour a brother could have in the province, He had more than 20 lodges in under his leadership in Egypt.
I also see he was a Knight Order of Merit (3rd Degree) (The Jewel with the large cross)
I also see he was President of Examining Council (The Triangle one) That meant any first degree brother who wished to go further and become a Primo he would have had to be examined to make sure he knew the rules and could run a lodge on his own.
Sadly it is hard to find anything on overseas lodges as most were forces lodges and when the RAF/Army moved, so did the lodge.
I cant see the pic as I am typing so when I post I will look again to see if I can see a name of a Lodge so I know where it ended up.
Den
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Does anyone actually reply to these??
Thanks for the nudge ;) ;D
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Thanks so much for the reply.
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I have a note on my father's record:
"27-1-39 Dad initiated (96367) into RAOB, Blue Nile Lodge – No 6310"
I recall him having a medal that was (I think) white and silver with a bit of blue, on a ribbon.
Can you enlarge at all?
Hi Pejic
Sorry for the delay
As of this moment I only have the Blue nile Lodge 6310 in it's previous name Khartoum Temperance 6310 It was a lodge in Khartoum in Sudan. That changed it's name about 1938 to Blue Nile Lodge 6310. I do have a 1940 directory but cant lay my hands on it,but will get back to you
Den
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Thanks so much for the reply.
No Prob once again sorry for the delay.
I cant see a lodge name or number on any of the jewels, not sure if you can from the orig
Den
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I have a note on my father's record:
"27-1-39 Dad initiated (96367) into RAOB, Blue Nile Lodge – No 6310"
I recall him having a medal that was (I think) white and silver with a bit of blue, on a ribbon.
Can you enlarge at all?
Hi Pejic
Sorry for the delay
As of this moment I only have the Blue nile Lodge 6310 in it's previous name Khartoum Temperance 6310 It was a lodge in Khartoum in Sudan. That changed it's name about 1938 to Blue Nile Lodge 6310. I do have a 1940 directory but cant lay my hands on it,but will get back to you
Den
Hi I fond it ;D
6310 Blue Nile met @ Workshops (B) Squadron R.A.F. Khartoum Sudan. (they were still meeting there in 1949.
The Lodge closed around 1963.
Hope the B Squadron RAF helps you a bit
Den
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Thanks Den, wish he was still around to get his leg pulled about the Temperance connection! One of my favourite pictures of him is in an air raid in Khartoum with his tin hat protecting his pint.
Regarding the (B) he was in 47(B) squadron at the time and I have assumed the (B) stood for Bomber.
Thanks again.
peter
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Edward Lynch (see yesterday's post on this topic please)
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I know my Grandfather was a Buff in Leicester and that he was knighted in that order....Can find nothing more about him. Any ideas where to start looking in Leicester.
His name was John Sutherland and he was born in 1882c in Dundee.
thanks
xin
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Hi, I have recently acquired the attached photo of my gg grandfather, Matthew Thomas Phillips (1857-1930) - who lived in Clifton, Bristol. Unfortunately there is no information with the photo, but I think it shows him as a member of the raob. Are you able to confirm this, please, and is there any way to tell from the photo what position he would have held in the organisation? Any information would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks.
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Hi, I'm trying to find information about my great-grandfather. My mum has a medal presented to Bro. Percy A. Wilkinson, the letters look like CP - could that be GP? Walverden Lodge 4781, 13th November 1932. She also has a pin which says Primo, and a rather scrappy blue ribbon with the letters GLE.
He lived in Padiham, then Nelson, Lancashire, before moving to Morecambe after surviving being struck by lightning. I can remember big buffalo horns over the fireplace from when I was a child, but he died in about 1946 so that's well before my time.
Can anyone help?
Hi Missbrisc
I can't tell you much about that except it is C.P. Certified Primo (that meant he passed an exam and was able to be in charge of a lodge himself). The Walverden lodge met at the R.A.O.B. Assembly Rooms, 68 Scotland Rd, Nelson. The Lodge closed in 1962. The Blue Collar Is also that of a Primo.
You could try
http://raob-pendle-and-district-province.webs.com/
Might get some luck
Den
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hi,
My great grandad was Edward Lynch born 1866 Huddersfield. He lived in Lowerplace Castleton Rochdale until approx 1905 and then moved to Middleton Manchester. We were told he was a buffalo member.
Please see attached pic of him. Any info of where they met or anything else would be great.
Thanks
IT WILL NOT LET ME ATTACH THE PHOTO - TOO LARGE - NEVER MIND
Hi Kevshe
Sorry It took so long but sorry I cant find anything to help you. None of the provinces you mention have websites & going by the dates it's hard to work out a lodge as there were so many in manchester & Rochdale about that time.
Den
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I know my Grandfather was a Buff in Leicester and that he was knighted in that order....Can find nothing more about him. Any ideas where to start looking in Leicester.
His name was John Sutherland and he was born in 1882c in Dundee.
thanks
xin
Hi Xin
Sorry but without the name of a lodge I cant tell you much.
Apart from his degree is the 3rd of 4 degree's K.O.M. Knight order of Merit. Sadly the Leicester Province does not have a Website
Den
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Hi Den, my father was in the buffs in the 1960's. I've asked them if I can check out the archives, or if they can see if they have any records, but I can't get a response. He was a PGP and a member of the GLE ROH. His name was George Ellarby and was a member of Wyre Lodge, the Unicorn Lodge, and a founder member of the Horace Blythe Lode in Fleetwood, Lancashire. He was also an active member of the OBA. He was 43 when he died, I would love to add this information to my research. Can you help please. By the way, My mum and I were lady gladers and made the sandwiches etc
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Hello Den,
I'm looking for info on a Bower Lodge No.18, I've looked on R.A.O.B websites but no joy. I have two medals one a coronation medal from 1937 and the other a Buffaloes head medal with 3 Bower Lodge clasps, they both belonged to my Great Grandfather Solomon John Cox who was from Oxfordshire and in the Royal Engineers he died in 1944 aged 37.
Cheers
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Hi Den, my father was in the buffs in the 1960's. I've asked them if I can check out the archives, or if they can see if they have any records, but I can't get a response. He was a PGP and a member of the GLE ROH. His name was George Ellarby and was a member of Wyre Lodge, the Unicorn Lodge, and a founder member of the Horace Blythe Lode in Fleetwood, Lancashire. He was also an active member of the OBA. He was 43 when he died, I would love to add this information to my research. Can you help please. By the way, My mum and I were lady gladers and made the sandwiches etc
Hi Chrissyf
When I first saw this I thought I knew him, But then realised the Brother I knew was from West Herts Province. I have been to two of the lodges you mentioned both good friendly lodges.
Blackpool does have a website but not much history on there you could try emailing them
http://www.blackpool-and-fylde-pgl.com/contact-us/
I dont know much about the OBA but here is a link which might be of use
http://www.raob-chorley.org.uk/oba-2.htm
Good luck
Den
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Hello Den,
I'm looking for info on a Bower Lodge No.18, I've looked on R.A.O.B websites but no joy. I have two medals one a coronation medal from 1937 and the other a Buffaloes head medal with 3 Bower Lodge clasps, they both belonged to my Great Grandfather Solomon John Cox who was from Oxfordshire and in the Royal Engineers he died in 1944 aged 37.
Cheers
Hi Phil556
Sadly I dont know much about that lodge. The Bower Lodge 18 was a Lodge under the"Grand Oxford Banner" it met at the plough inn Wolvercote Oxford. I dont have any records I can look up for that Banner & I don't think they are still in existence . :(
Den
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Hi, I have recently acquired the attached photo of my gg grandfather, Matthew Thomas Phillips (1857-1930) - who lived in Clifton, Bristol. Unfortunately there is no information with the photo, but I think it shows him as a member of the raob. Are you able to confirm this, please, and is there any way to tell from the photo what position he would have held in the organisation? Any information would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks.
Hi yve nt
The picture looks like it was taken on the day of his raising to the 3rd degree (Knight Order of Merit)
The Jewel he is wearing IS Grand Lodge of England. The Lodge must have thought very highly of this brother as he was presented with full regalia. I don't think the Bristol provinces have a website. There is one for Grand Council but that is the wrong section for him.
Den
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Hi Den,
That's great - thank you so much for the information.
yve-nt
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Hi Den, This is a photo of my Great Great Grandfather, he lived in Battersea, London. I've been trying to identify his sash and somebody suggested he could have been a Buffalo. What do you think?
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Hi Den, This is a photo of my Great Great Grandfather, he lived in Battersea, London. I've been trying to identify his sash and somebody suggested he could have been a Buffalo. What do you think?
Hi Moogester
Sorry I have no idea ???. It is NOT Buffaloes, but hope you don't mind I have forwarded it on to see if any of my friends know ;).
Den
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Hi Den, This is a photo of my Great Great Grandfather, he lived in Battersea, London. I've been trying to identify his sash and somebody suggested he could have been a Buffalo. What do you think?
From your picture can you read what the top line says?
Den
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Hi Den, Thanks so much for replying. The top line reads "Pride of Battersea", any info you can give me will be gratefully received!
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Hi Den, This is a photo of my Great Great Grandfather, he lived in Battersea, London. I've been trying to identify his sash and somebody suggested he could have been a Buffalo. What do you think?
From your picture can you read what the top line says?
Den
I did get an answer from another Buff, this is his reply
"Original Grand Order of the Totally Abstinent Sons of the Phoenix
This order which appears to have existed from the mid 1800s until just after the Second World War was a temperance order having male, female and junior divisions. Their regalia consisted of a shoulder sash and large jewels for their lodge masters known as ‘grand nobles’. Serving Grand Nobles carried a phoenix topped sceptre as their badge of office. There were splits in the ‘Original Grand Order’ that led to the formation of the ‘United Order’ and ‘Ancient Order’."
So presumably "J N" stands for Junior Noble.
I hope this helps you
Den
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Is the bird shown on the sash a phoenix? And what is the insignia right at the top? They could possibly hold the answer.
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hi there, this is the first time Ive posted on here so im sorry if Ive posted in the wrong place, im wanting to know if anyone has information on a wonderful old brass lectern which is from the R.A.O.B oliver cromwell lodge, presented by primo philip dahl 1-1-19 no.77, then another plaque on the base reads presented by primo j.christy to oliver cromwell lodge nov 5th 1906, it is a large heavy piece with a brass plaque which can be turned around, one side reads LIBERTY, the other side reads STRICT. THE PART WHERE THE BOOK WOULD REST IS ALL PIERCED WITH THE r.a.o.b LETTERS AND PRESENTATION WRITING, its an amazing piece, feel free to mail me at * and i will try and send photos or ill try add a couple on here, kindest regards, daniel
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hi there, this is the first time Ive posted on here so im sorry if Ive posted in the wrong place, im wanting to know if anyone has information on a wonderful old brass lectern which is from the R.A.O.B oliver cromwell lodge, presented by primo philip dahl 1-1-19 no.77, then another plaque on the base reads presented by primo j.christy to oliver cromwell lodge nov 5th 1906, it is a large heavy piece with a brass plaque which can be turned around, one side reads LIBERTY, the other side reads STRICT. THE PART WHERE THE BOOK WOULD REST IS ALL PIERCED WITH THE r.a.o.b LETTERS AND PRESENTATION WRITING, its an amazing piece, feel free to mail me at * and i will try and send photos or ill try add a couple on here, kindest regards, daniel
Hi Daniel.
The lodge indicator board is part of the normal furniture in the Lodge. There are 2 one each end of the Lodge Room to indicate whether the lodge is in strict order or liberty hall.
I must admit I have never seen a brass one they are normally made of wood.
The lodge it came from Oliver Cromwell 77 was in the Northumberland & North East Duram Province. The Lodge closed about 1993. Although the Province does have a "Buff Club" in Sunderland.
It would be nice if you could add a pic on here if you can
Regards
Den
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hi Den, thank you so much for that great information, as soon as i take a photo of the piece ill add it on here for you to look at, wooden base measures 56cm long and overall height of piece is about 54cm high, base is 17.5cm wide. its an amazing piece, i will probably try and sell it on ebay in the next few days, hopefully someone will have use for it, kindest regards, daniel :)
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Hi Den, This is a photo of my Great Great Grandfather, he lived in Battersea, London. I've been trying to identify his sash and somebody suggested he could have been a Buffalo. What do you think?
From your picture can you read what the top line says?
Den
I did get an answer from another Buff, this is his reply
"Original Grand Order of the Totally Abstinent Sons of the Phoenix
This order which appears to have existed from the mid 1800s until just after the Second World War was a temperance order having male, female and junior divisions. Their regalia consisted of a shoulder sash and large jewels for their lodge masters known as ‘grand nobles’. Serving Grand Nobles carried a phoenix topped sceptre as their badge of office. There were splits in the ‘Original Grand Order’ that led to the formation of the ‘United Order’ and ‘Ancient Order’."
So presumably "J N" stands for Junior Noble.
I hope this helps you
Den
Thanks for that Den, it's very interesting. My G G Grandfather was born a gypsy, he settled in Battersea with his family about 1895, so I guess he made lots of life changes!
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Your welcome Moogester.
I suppose being a traveller he may have been able to go to lodges wherever he pitched up ( I presume they had lodges all over like most fraternal organisations) There he would have found a friendly face to greet him.
Good luck with your tree
Den
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hi Den, thank you so much for that great information, as soon as i take a photo of the piece ill add it on here for you to look at, wooden base measures 56cm long and overall height of piece is about 54cm high, base is 17.5cm wide. its an amazing piece, i will probably try and sell it on ebay in the next few days, hopefully someone will have use for it, kindest regards, daniel :)
Hi Daniel
Never seen one like. Good luck on ebay sometimes things like that sell.
I will look out for it & if it's not too dear might put a bid in & donate it back to the province.
Den
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hi den, ive just listed it on ebay, good luck if you decide to bid, i actually paid rather alot for it as i thought it was an interesting and decorative piece, be fantastic if it goes back where it belongs or to someones family connected with the names on the presentation plaques, kindest regards, daniel
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I have a number of RAON jewels that belonged to my grandfather as well as beautiful scrolls. Where can I find information on the following:
Walter Savage of Abingdon
Was initiated in 1910
Knight Order of Merit - Amity Lodge No 4 1926
Knight Order of Merit - Unity Lodge 1926
Installed Primo Amity Lodge - 1912
I have various Jewels as Minstrel, Primo and PGP as wellas founder Abbey Lodge
Anyone who can shed any light on all of this?
John
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I have a number of RAON jewels that belonged to my grandfather as well as beautiful scrolls. Where can I find information on the following:
Walter Savage of Abingdon
Was initiated in 1910
Knight Order of Merit - Amity Lodge No 4 1926
Knight Order of Merit - Unity Lodge 1926
Installed Primo Amity Lodge - 1912
I have various Jewels as Minstrel, Primo and PGP as wellas founder Abbey Lodge
Anyone who can shed any light on all of this?
John
Hi John I cant find anything on "Amity no 4" it might be a different banner. Do you know the number of the "Unity Lodge, and what are the details on the Founders Jewel. Also his PGP Jewel what Province is that?
Den
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Hi I wonder if you can give me any information my grandfather was in the buffs in I think senghenydd, glamorganshire. I have attached a photograph. If you can give me any information applicable to him it would be greatly appreciated.
Name: William henry phillips of 9 brynhyfrydd terrace senghenydd, glamorganshire.
I believe he was in the buffs in the late 50' & 60's maybe earlier.
I understand that the buffs paid for his funeral according to the family. Not sure if this is correct.
Do you know what the regalia is around my grandfathers neck and what it represents.
thank you rvb
I have found another picture which may give you more clarity/detail.
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Hi I wonder if you can give me any information my grandfather was in the buffs in I think senghenydd, glamorganshire. I have attached a photograph. If you can give me any information applicable to him it would be greatly appreciated.
Name: William henry phillips of 9 brynhyfrydd terrace senghenydd, glamorganshire.
I believe he was in the buffs in the late 50' & 60's maybe earlier.
I understand that the buffs paid for his funeral according to the family. Not sure if this is correct.
Do you know what the regalia is around my grandfathers neck and what it represents.
thank you rvb
Hi RVB
Looking at the Directory for 1959 there was one Lodge in Senghenydd 1120 William Griffiths Lodge. They met at Gwernymilwr Hotel senghenydd Glam on Friday evenings. (At the time the Lodge was in the Cardiff Province)
The Lodge is still going but it now comes under the Caerphilly & District Province. Still meet on a Fri at Windsor Hotel senghenydd. I cant find a Province website for them.
It is not uncommon for the Buffs to help out for Funeral expenses (After all if we cant look after our own who can we look after?) While searching yours I found an interesting article that mentioned his village that sometime prior to 1914 there was an RAOB fund for the senghenydd Miners Disaster Fund. (I dont know any more than the fact it had a fund).
It's a bit hard to see the details on the collar but he is wearing the City Marshals Collar. The lower Jewel looks like a Lodge Jewel & the other looks like a 2nd degree (Primo) Jewel. The confusing bit the sash looks v light & that would suggest 4th Degree (Roll of Honour)
Hope this helps a bit
Den
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Hi Thank you for that information. Could you clarify what it means? does it mean he was high up in the lodge? Sorry if I am dumb but I know nothing about the buffs.
Also can you tell me how I would get in touch with Caerphilly District to see if they have any more info as I have done a google search with no such luck.
thank you rvb
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Hi Thank you for that information. Could you clarify what it means? does it mean he was high up in the lodge? Sorry if I am dumb but I know nothing about the buffs.
Also can you tell me how I would get in touch with Caerphilly District to see if they have any more info as I have done a google search with no such luck.
thank you rvb
Hi RVB
If he was a Roll of Honour then yes that is the highest degree you get in Buffaloism.
I dont have the Caephilly details but will PM you the Cardiff Secretary's email. He is Bro Colin Young.
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Hi if anyone on here would like any info on the buffaloes just post on here and I will see what I can get for you (prob not a lot) but could lead you in the right direction .
What I do have are records of where lodge met the Lodge name and number,
so if you find some old jewels or papers from your family just ask.
I am a member of the order and try to record items of intrest for the future
Den
or my title
Bro Den Whittenbury R O H.
PS if I dont reply within a couple of days PM me ;)
whittenbury I cant seem to send a pm, but if you are interested or know anyone who would be I have came across some old lodge notes and ledger books for lodge no 27 dating back to the 1920's.
Please try and get in contact as I dont want to see them lost again
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Hi if anyone on here would like any info on the buffaloes just post on here and I will see what I can get for you (prob not a lot) but could lead you in the right direction .
What I do have are records of where lodge met the Lodge name and number,
so if you find some old jewels or papers from your family just ask.
I am a member of the order and try to record items of intrest for the future
Den
or my title
Bro Den Whittenbury R O H.
PS if I dont reply within a couple of days PM me ;)
whittenbury I cant seem to send a pm, but if you are interested or know anyone who would be I have came across some old lodge notes and ledger books for lodge no 27 dating back to the 1920's.
Please try and get in contact as I dont want to see them lost again
Hi Daveuk
Yes I would defiantly be interested in those items, as you can see by the older posts the more I get then the more I can share. Rootschat does not allow email addresses on here (because of spammers) So I will send you a PM
Regards
Den
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My father was a buffalo.
When I was young my dad became very ill and had to spend a lot of time in hospital..He was there over christmas....We went to visit my father on christmas day....some Buffalo members came to visit my father too and with them they brought me a beautiful doll for a christmas present. (they knew my father hadn't got much money due to not being able to work)........My mum asked me what I was going to call the doll....I replied.....her name is Kindness, because those men were very kind to give it to me.
I still remember those men even now and i'm 50.
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My mum was in the Glades which I believe is the female version of the buffaloes.
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My father was a buffalo.
When I was young my dad became very ill and had to spend a lot of time in hospital..He was there over christmas....We went to visit my father on christmas day....some Buffalo members came to visit my father too and with them they brought me a beautiful doll for a christmas present. (they knew my father hadn't got much money due to not being able to work)........My mum asked me what I was going to call the doll....I replied.....her name is Kindness, because those men were very kind to give it to me.
I still remember those men even now and i'm 50.
What a wonderful sweet memory you have. It is nice to see families getting as much out of the order as the the Brothers do :)
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My mum was in the Glades which I believe is the female version of the buffaloes.
You are right they are very similar but not officially connected (mores the pity) ;)
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Do you know what lodges were in Leicester
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Do you know what lodges were in Leicester
There have been loads in Leicester, If you narrow it down with a year and place I am sure I could work it out. (sadly Leicester Province does not have a Website)
Den
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I can remember my dad being in it 60's 70's and 80's
he came from Glen Parva leicester
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I can remember my dad being in it 60's 70's and 80's
he came from Glen Parva leicester
Hi The nearest I can find that covers those dates is:
Walter Chantry 8232 met at Bell Hotel Leicester Rd Wigston (Fri eve) Early 60s
it then changed name to Chantry-Crouch Early 70s
Changed name again to: Archie Lane 8232, met at Conservative Club Blaby Rd South Wigston
According to the 2008 Directory this Lodge was still open.
Hope this is of sme help
Den
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:) Thank you, Wigston is not far from where my father lived, so no doubt that could be the one.
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I am hoping that someone may be able to provide some information if possible on the picture that I have attached. The man is the grandfather of a dear friend. She has no knowledge of her grandfather and only this picture and as she lives in Canada and he was from England it has made it all that much more difficult. His name is William Henry Edmunds and he was born in 1853 in Southampton, Hampshire, England. In 1891 he lived in Jersey, Channel Islands. In the 1901 census he is living in Clapham, London and in 1911 in Wandsworth, London. I am trying to find out anything I can. I was told that this is the regalia of a R.A.O.B. and if anyone can provide anything further I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks in advance.
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I am hoping that someone may be able to provide some information if possible on the picture that I have attached. The man is the grandfather of a dear friend. She has no knowledge of her grandfather and only this picture and as she lives in Canada and he was from England it has made it all that much more difficult. His name is William Henry Edmunds and he was born in 1853 in Southampton, Hampshire, England. In 1891 he lived in Jersey, Channel Islands. In the 1901 census he is living in Clapham, London and in 1911 in Wandsworth, London. I am trying to find out anything I can. I was told that this is the regalia of a R.A.O.B. and if anyone can provide anything further I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks in advance.
Hi Srkdak
The only thing I can tell you is he is a Knight Order of Merit. The Big Cross Jewel he is wearing shows He is from the Grand Executive Banner. I can't read the Lodge name from the cuffs. Sadly all the old records of the GEB were destroyed years ago. :( Also this fits in with your dates as the GEB had Lodges in London.
Den
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Thankyou very much. Where would we search to find out information as to what his position, or what the GEB was? We don't really know much about this. She is excited with any new news I can find to help her understand who her relatives were.
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Thankyou very much. Where would we search to find out information as to what his position, or what the GEB was? We don't really know much about this. She is excited with any new news I can find to help her understand who her relatives were.
The GEB is The Grand Executive Banner of the Royal Antediluvian Order of Buffaloes.
His Degree in the picture is KOM Knight Order of Merit. That is the 3rd Degree out of 4. (Its the best Jewel from any of the banners) It is v large and solid Silver. a better look at the Jewels can be found here
http://www.s119595638.websitehome.co.uk/pgeb.html
As I said sadly all the old records were destroyed in a fire I doubt if you can find anything more.
Den
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I am looking for more information on the RAOB that would have been at Brittania Lodge, Leigh, Lancashire in 1959. They are referenced in the newspaper acknowledgments for my great grandmother.
I am told my grandfather James Ainsworth who was a miner at Bickershaw Colliery and lived at Plank Lane was a member of the "Buffs". Anyway that I can verify that ?
Paul
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My mums great uncle William Craig of Hull who owned a pub (the crown and Anchor), in the newspaper it said he was a prominant member and at his funeral around 80 members were present and burial service of the order was read by Bro. H jenkinson, R.O.H.
Here is a photo of his funeral from newspaper:
(http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/u377/rockmaiden2/TLinsleyCoLtdHull-pressphoto.jpg)
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My grandfather was a Buff for 40 years. He was Knight of Merit and held office in the Provincial Grand Lodge for 17 years. At one time was Deputy Provincial Grand Prima. He was a regular attendant at the Royal Berkshire, Crown of Reading and Pride of Reading. (all this information came from his obituary) He lived in Reading from about 1912 where he died in 1933 aged 79. We have tried to obtain further info from the R.A.O.B but to no avail. We have been trying to trace his involvement in the R.A.O.B prior to him being at Reading but again to no avail. Any suggestions as to how we can find this out would most gratefully received. Thank you. Jill
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I believe my father and one of his brothers were in the Basingstoke branch, is there any way of finding out more info please?
Salty
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I am looking for more information on the RAOB that would have been at Brittania Lodge, Leigh, Lancashire in 1959. They are referenced in the newspaper acknowledgments for my great grandmother.
I am told my grandfather James Ainsworth who was a miner at Bickershaw Colliery and lived at Plank Lane was a member of the "Buffs". Anyway that I can verify that ?
Paul
Hi Paul
I have checked a 1959 directory it does include the Britannia lodge 3024. It was in the South Central Province and met at the Britannia Hotel, Plank Lane Leigh. Wed evenings. The Lodge closed prior to 1987 & the Province does not have a Website that I could direct you to :-[ Sorry I can't help much more
Den
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My mums great uncle William Craig of Hull who owned a pub (the crown and Anchor), in the newspaper it said he was a prominant member and at his funeral around 80 members were present and burial service of the order was read by Bro. H jenkinson, R.O.H.
Here is a photo of his funeral from newspaper:
(http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/u377/rockmaiden2/TLinsleyCoLtdHull-pressphoto.jpg)
Hi
Do you know the name of the Lodge? If not what year did he Die? I can see if a Lodge used his Hotel to meet. You could also try Contacting someone from the Hull Province http://raobhullprovince.co.uk/
I can see that there were a lot of members from your pic. The fact the Brothers are walking with the Hearse would suggest he had a Buffalo Funeral
Den
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My grandfather was a Buff for 40 years. He was Knight of Merit and held office in the Provincial Grand Lodge for 17 years. At one time was Deputy Provincial Grand Prima. He was a regular attendant at the Royal Berkshire, Crown of Reading and Pride of Reading. (all this information came from his obituary) He lived in Reading from about 1912 where he died in 1933 aged 79. We have tried to obtain further info from the R.A.O.B but to no avail. We have been trying to trace his involvement in the R.A.O.B prior to him being at Reading but again to no avail. Any suggestions as to how we can find this out would most gratefully received. Thank you. Jill
hi Jill
I have looked and cant find a website for the Reading Province. Where was he living before Reading? that might give a clue as some Provinces have got a good history on their pages & what was his name?
Den
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I believe my father and one of his brothers were in the Basingstoke branch, is there any way of finding out more info please?
Salty
Hi Salty
Sorry I cant find a website for Basingstoke & District Province
Den
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Thanks for trying Den.
Salty
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Thanks for trying Den.
Salty
If you can give me dates when they were in the order & possibly an address I could work out what lodges they were a member of. Plus their names. you never know as one could have been a Provincial Grand Secretary and I would have details on that.
Den
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The surname is Whitman and it was in Basingstoke prior to the end of 1979, not sure that either of them were in office at all. I went to the club once (If thats what you call it) off Reading Road in Basingstoke if my memory serves me right.
Thanks
Salty
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Thank you getting back to me - my grand-dad lived in Uttoxeter before moving to Reading, before that he lived in London where he married my grandmother in 1903? He was in Bromley Kent and also Derby prior to being in London. He was in the Buffs for 40 years at the time of his death (aged 79 in 1936) so that would take his involvement in the Buffs back to approx 1896! Prior to him being in Bromley in 1897 we have no idea where he was! Any suggestions would be most gratefully received. Regards Jill
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My mums great uncle William Craig of Hull who owned a pub (the crown and Anchor), in the newspaper it said he was a prominant member and at his funeral around 80 members were present and burial service of the order was read by Bro. H jenkinson, R.O.H.
Here is a photo of his funeral from newspaper:
(http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/u377/rockmaiden2/TLinsleyCoLtdHull-pressphoto.jpg)
Hi
Do you know the name of the Lodge? If not what year did he Die? I can see if a Lodge used his Hotel to meet. You could also try Contacting someone from the Hull Province http://raobhullprovince.co.uk/
I can see that there were a lot of members from your pic. The fact the Brothers are walking with the Hearse would suggest he had a Buffalo Funeral
Den
No I don't know the name of the lodge, He died in 1931.
Becky
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My Father was a druid lodge number 642 and chapter 29 , I am trying to find out more about these lodges, and if they are still around today
My dad is now 92 and was in the lodge in 1957
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Hello, I am trying to trace details of my Great Grandfather's life. He was named Frank Besant, lived in Pembroke Dock, and was a member of "the Buffs", in fact they paid for his funeral in 1936, and looked after his widow (Mary Ann) and children. They lived at 40 Military Road, Pennar, Pembroke Dock. In his obituary there is mention of him "After his return to Pembroke Dock (after the First World War) he took a great interest in British Legion work and also served for a time on the Mayor's Poor Relief Committee".
I hope that you can help with any reference to him, or the history of the R.A.O.B. in Pembroke Dock.
Many Thanks, arranquest
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Hi
Sorry I have no records on the Druids ???
Den
My Father was a druid lodge number 642 and chapter 29 , I am trying to find out more about these lodges, and if they are still around today
My dad is now 92 and was in the lodge in 1957
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Hi arranquest
There were quite a few Lodges In Pembroke Dock at that time and they came under the " Pembroke Dock & Tenby Province"
That Province is now the " South Pembrokeshire Province" They don't have a website but I have an email address of their Secretary I will send you it in a PM.
On another note I have stayed in Military Rd myself in the early 80's at my ex Wifes Aunt :o
Den
Hello, I am trying to trace details of my Great Grandfather's life. He was named Frank Besant, lived in Pembroke Dock, and was a member of "the Buffs", in fact they paid for his funeral in 1936, and looked after his widow (Mary Ann) and children. They lived at 40 Military Road, Pennar, Pembroke Dock. In his obituary there is mention of him "After his return to Pembroke Dock (after the First World War) he took a great interest in British Legion work and also served for a time on the Mayor's Poor Relief Committee".
I hope that you can help with any reference to him, or the history of the R.A.O.B. in Pembroke Dock.
Many Thanks, arranquest
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Please could you find my great grandfather: James W. GreenField of the New Holland Lodge number 3177 he was initiated on the 2nd day of august 1962
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Please could you find my great grandfather: James W. GreenField of the New Holland Lodge number 3177 he was initiated on the 2nd day of august 1962
Hi The Lodge you mentioned was in the Hull Province at that time I had a look on there site, but did not find the name. Try contacting the site they may be able to help a little bit http://raobhullprovince.co.uk/
Later the lodge changed to the Grimsby province but I cant find a website for that, I am sure the Hull site can direct you...
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Hi, I am looking for information regarding my husband's grandfather. We have a large (A3 size) certificate saying he belonged to Dixon Hartland Lodge No: 970 and is dated 17 Feb 1899.
His name was Fred Hood, and he lived in Kent at the time. Although he migrated to Australia in 1905 I was wondering if we may be able to obtain any information regarding his involvement with this Lodge.
Ducie
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Hi whittenbury,
My Grandfather Frederick Bates was in the Buffs I am guessing around the 1950's and 1960's at the time they lived in Moston Manchester. I know nothing else so would love to know if you can tell me anything.
Regards
Sarah :)
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Hi my Granddad was a Buff in Axminster Devon. Mum thinks he may have gone to a Buffs meeting at The Commercial, The Castle or The St George in Axminster, presume joined around 1939-1971 then moved to Perth Australia and attended Buffs here, somewhere, 1971-2000. Any ideas. Mum is going to ask Gran if she still has his Buffs things, hopefully she has, as Mums does remember his blue sash. His name was Kenneth Francis McGurk.
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Sarah, My Granddad Thomas Norton was also in the buffs and lived in the Moston area of Manchester. He passed away about 1966. He was in the Buff before WWII. His lodge was the Lady of the Manor No 279
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have recently discovered my great great grandfather was a Grand Knight of the Buffalos. I know nothing more. I think the lodge number was 43 according to his sash in a photo I've been sent. I have no idea what sort of records or information I can get on this order or about his role/duties in it. I have attached the photo that was given to me. his name was Elijah Bryan b1867 ANY info would be of great assistance. THANKS.............sorry the pic is so large I didn't realise
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Hi J Johnson,
How nice to hear from you :D Thank you for the information on the lodge that gives me a great clue to go and investigate more.
Cheers
Sarah :)
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Hello =),
I was recently shown a photograph of my great-grandfather and great grand uncle. I haven't seen a physical copy but my auntie tells me on the back it says "Buffs, Victoria Hotel, Ferndale, 1920ish"
Below is an image of what they are wearing in the photo. =) Sorry it's not very big, this is as big as I've got.
On the left is William Thomas Williams (b. 1887, Kidwelly) and on the right is Frederick Haydn Cayford (b. 1903, Ferndale, Glamorgan) - the Cayford family ran the Victoria Hotel in the 20s, which is the pub the men are standing in front of in the picture. =)
(http://i58.tinypic.com/2mg3uas.png)
I'd really just appreciate any extra information anyone can give me, really. =)
Thanks in advance for any replies!
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I have recently come across an old photograph whilst sorting through some old family papers and am hoping that you may be able to help me learn more about it. I
There are no details on the back of the photo but I have managed to research it a bit, and think that the gentleman is a member of the Royal Antediluvian Order of Buffaloes, and appears to be wearing regalia suggesting that he held the Knight Order of Merit. The writing at the bottom of the photo reads – “A Portrait by E. F (or T or J?) Stevens”. Unfortunately, as mentioned, I do not have the name of the individual or the date that this was taken, but our main family surnames were Smith and Baker, and they were living in London and Kent.
I do not now if you have the resources, but if you are able to supply any more information about this photograph I would be most grateful. If you are unable to help, but know of another group/website that might be able to, then that would be very helpful.
I have tried attaching the photo to this message, but keep getting an error message come up. I can send it to you directly if that is ok.
Thanking you in advance for any help you may be able to give.
Many thanks
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My grandfather was Sir Howard J Kent of the Seven Kings Lodge; I believe that their meeting place was the Seven Kings Hotel near Ilford. I remember that he had a very grand certificate framed on the wall and he had an amazing amount of regalia, which he kept in a suitcase. Unfortunately my grandmother sold it all and destroyed the certificate when he died, much to my disappointment. The only thing I have is a lovely old pipe in the shape of a buffalo head; it appears to be official "Buffs" merchandise because it has R.A.O.B. stamped on the side. I'll post picture if anyone is interested.
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Hello there,
My grandfather Hugh Thomas Cartwright (always known as Tom Cartwright) born 5.6.1900 was a member of the Buffs, I think it may have been Compton or Bradmore Lodge Wolverhampton, but I do not know where they met. Have you any info on this. Would be appreciated and many thanks for looking.
Regards
Kizzy
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Hi Kizzy,
I am going to lock this post as the original poster has stopped replying to this thread. If you would like me to split off your post just let me know ;)
Regards
Sarah