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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Stirlingshire => Topic started by: roony on Sunday 27 January 08 19:17 GMT (UK)

Title: Killearn Gamekeeper
Post by: roony on Sunday 27 January 08 19:17 GMT (UK)
My grand father John Paul and his brother Robert Paul where gamekeepers and where born in killearn at Gargowan lodge. Robert Paul was born in 1872 Robert was engaged to a Maggie Young,  he died due to an accident with a shot gun,could anyone tell me what year this happend,and who did Maggie Young marry?

Roony.
Title: Re: Killearn Gamekeeper
Post by: ev on Sunday 27 January 08 20:04 GMT (UK)
hi roony

welcome to rootschat  :)

what was names of their parents

ev
Title: Re: Killearn Gamekeeper
Post by: hume on Monday 28 January 08 01:21 GMT (UK)
Hi Roony and Ev,

It looks like their parents were John Paul and Elizabeth George, who married the 30th April 1868 in Killearn. Robert was the oldest (b. 16th July 1868), John born 17th July 1873, both in Killearn. They also had Janet, who died in 1877 aged 3 (taken from here (http://web.ukonline.co.uk/Members/tom.paterson/deaths/Death_Page531.html)).

I think I see Robert on the 1891 census. He is lodging with the Kennedy family at 16 McLellan Street, Govan district, Glasgow. He's described as a salesman in the shoe and boot trade. Unfortunately, I can't see him in 1901 so it may be that his death occurred before then.

It will be more difficult to trace where Maggie went. Young is quite a common name and without her birth details, it could take a while on the census. ;D

hume24

Title: Re: Killearn Gamekeeper
Post by: apanderson on Monday 28 January 08 09:53 GMT (UK)
Hi Guys,

The following MI's (from stones in Killearn Churchyard) just might be of interest . . . .

"Erected by John Paul in memory of his daughter JANET who died 29th May 1879 aged 3 years   
Also his daughter ELIZABETH who died 26th October 1880 aged 2 years & 10 months         
Also his infant daughter who died 29th October 1880 aged 17 days         
His son ROBERT died at Winnipeg, Canada 6th November 1898 aged 29 years
And was laid to rest in historic in Kildonan Cemetery                  
Also his wife ELISABETH FINLAY GEORGE died 30th June 1908 aged 63 years
The above JOHN PAUL died at Gilliston 27th August 1914 aged 73 years"


You'll see there's a discrepancy between what you have and what I have for the year of Janet's death. I don't know definately whether she died in 1877 or 1879 but there's no doubt that the gravestone says 1879

And this one . . . . .

"In memory of ANNIE NORVAL beloved wife of Robert Paul               
Who died 25th June 1910 aged 59 years
The above ROBERT PAUL who died 11th January 1929 aged 86 years
ROBERT PAUL who died 19th October 1895 aged 23 years
ARCHIBALD NORVAL PAUL who died 6th February 1941 aged 64 years
JANET PAUL who died 25th February 1954 aged 80 years"


The above Robert Paul (Jnr.) would have been born c1872 going by his age at death.

If you work out roughly when John and Robert were born (from their ages when they died), it would seem that John was born c1841 and Robert c1843 - they could quite easily have be brothers.

There is another stone, to an earlier generation of Pauls which may or may not be related. Again working out the births from the ages at death, this John Paul, might have been their father.

"Erected by John Paul in memory of MARY SMITH his wife
Who died 22nd January 1860 aged 22 years
Also in memory of his wife MARION PAUL who died 13th August 1863 aged 32 years
Also in memory of his son WILLIAM who died 24th October 1891 aged 21 years
Also of his daughter JEANIE who died 24th December 1892 aged 12 years
The above JOHN PAUL died at Drumbeg 19th April 1919 aged 91 years   
MARY DRUMMOND" (Remainder of stone buried)


I would imagine that most, if not all the Pauls buried in Killearn would have been related to each other in one way or another, the difficult part is proving in what way.

Anne




         
Title: Re: Killearn Gamekeeper
Post by: ev on Monday 28 January 08 11:13 GMT (UK)
hi all  :)

think we will have to wait on roony to confirm the parents
this might give us a stronger lead on maggie young
SP gives a few possibles for death of robert

ev
Title: Re: Killearn Gamekeeper
Post by: hume on Monday 28 January 08 16:45 GMT (UK)
Anne, wonderful information from the MIs. It seems the family I found may not be the ones after all, seeing as that Robert died in Canada.

hume24
Title: Re: Killearn Gamekeeper
Post by: roony on Monday 28 January 08 19:26 GMT (UK)
Hi-Hume ,EV,ANN.Many thanks for your interest,  ANN has identified my great  grandfather Robert Paul and greatgrand mother Annie norval of which I have a portrait .I also now have the date of Robert jnrs death.Another piece in the jigsaw.

On the subject of Maggie Young, Roberts intended she may have been carrying his child?

regards Roony.
Title: Re: Killearn Gamekeeper
Post by: ev on Monday 28 January 08 20:12 GMT (UK)
hi roony/all

was roberts death 1895 in scotland ?
that was the one i thought most likely from SP

good work anne  :)

ev
Title: Re: Killearn Gamekeeper
Post by: apanderson on Monday 28 January 08 20:46 GMT (UK)
 ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D

Makes a nice change to find the right ones now and again!!

Are you local to Killearn Roony? The grave would be easy to find as it's only a wee Churchyard. Alternatively, send me a PM with your personal e-mail and I'll send you through some photos.

Anne

(Feeling all pleased with herself!!)
Title: Re: Killearn Gamekeeper
Post by: apanderson on Monday 28 January 08 21:32 GMT (UK)
I think I might have found them on the 1881 Cencus.

Living at Gargowan Lodge, Kilmaronock, Dunbartonshire

Robert, Head of Household, age 35, born Killearn (Stirlingshire), occupation Gamekeeper died 11th January 1929 aged 86
Annie, Wife, age 30, born Glasgow (Lanarkshire) died 25th June 1910 age 59
Nelly, daughter, age 10, born Strathblane (Stirlingshire), Scholar (probably Helen)
Robert, son, age 9, born Strathblane (Stirlingshire), Scholar died 19th October 1895 age 23
Jessie (Janet), daughter, age 7, born Killearn (Stirlingshire), Scholar died (a spinster?) 25th February 1954 age 80
Annie, daughter, age 6, born Killearn Stirlingshire)  * see below - this is another stone in Killearn Churchyard
Archibald (Norval), son, age 4, born Kilmaronock (Dunbartonshire) died 6th February 1941 aged 64
Walter, son, age 2, born Kilmaronock (Dunbartonshire)
James, son, age 1 month, born Kilmaronock (Dunbartonshire)

* In loving memory of ROBERT GILMOUR beloved husband of Annie B. Paul
Died 10th November 1941 aged 67 years
The above ANNIE B. PAUL died 18th May 1956 aged 81 years

Blue text - dates from gravestone

This Annie B. Paul might not be the correct one of course!!   

If you 'google' Killearn and Kilmaronock, you'll see that although they're in different Counties, they're not really that far apart.

Anne
Title: Re: Killearn Gamekeeper
Post by: charmonium on Saturday 15 November 08 21:15 GMT (UK)
I know the answer to this one. 

Robert Paul was born 2 Dec 1871 and died 19 Oct 1895. He did not marry Maggie Young but she had his child just before he died.  The family story was that they did not marry before the child was born because he died in the accident. However the dates don't quite back this up.

Their child was born Robert Paul Young on 11 Oct 1895 in Eaglesham.  Margaret Young then married James Stewart in 1900.  The child Robert took the surname Stewart.  Robert married Jeanie Young in 1931.  Robert owned a garage at Dumbuck near Dumbarton. Robert and Jeanie had a son John born in 1939. He was better known as Jackie Stewart, former Formula 1 World Champion.
Title: Re: Killearn Gamekeeper
Post by: jamesnpaul on Monday 02 February 09 08:25 GMT (UK)
Hi Roony,
I am James Norval Paul, Killearn Gamekeepers, my Father, Robert Paul, b.1909,d1994,is the THIRD gamekeeper of the PAUL line, my GRANDFATHER, JAMAS NORVAL PAUL,was born at Gargowan Lodge,his story is of a courageous Scots Guardsman,WW1, double MILITARY MEDAL,i have his medal,pls email me:

Moderator comment: email address removed to prevent spam and other abuses.  Please use the PM system to exchange such info

I have lot of direct history of our Family
best regards
James and Sylvia Paul


Moderator comment: details of living person removed in accordance with Rootschat policy and to protect their identity from theft.
Title: Re: Killearn Gamekeeper
Post by: ev on Tuesday 03 February 09 11:07 GMT (UK)
welcome to rootschat james  :) (and charmonium)

wasn't jackie stewart a clay pigeon champion as well as a racing one
gamekeeper heritage ?

looks like we have a result here , well done everybody  :D

ev
Title: Re: Killearn Gamekeeper
Post by: jamesnpaul on Tuesday 03 February 09 12:30 GMT (UK)
Hi Ev,

This is James Norval Paul, thanks for your reply, yes Jackie Stewart was Olympic Standard Clay Pigeon Shot, he was chosen for the Olympics, however he went racing instead and we all know what the result of that. I have spent many happy days at the Jackie Stewart Clay Pigeon Centre at Gleneagles.

I am new to Ancestry, having much fun tracing the family, starting with the Pauls, the Scots Guards historical centre in London have been superb at tracing the WW1 history of my grandfather, James Norval Paul, I have detailed history of his activities on the battle field. I will be visiting Killearn shortly to meet members of our family.

James 
Title: Re: Killearn Gamekeeper
Post by: LindsaySiam on Tuesday 03 February 09 12:43 GMT (UK)
James, if you are in Killearn, stop off at Strathblane Churchyard also, there are many, Norvals in there.

regards,

Lindsay
Title: Re: Killearn Gamekeeper
Post by: jamesnpaul on Tuesday 03 February 09 16:00 GMT (UK)
Hello Lindsay,
Thanks for tip, will visit,Annie Norval married a Paul,my name follows from this route,are you linked to the PAUL family?,I will visit Scotland during April to push my new hobby,PAUL family are Killearn based,my Mother was a BAIN,Denny,Dunipace,Glasgow.  The BAIN,s line founded a large production unit in the USA to produce the :BAIN WAGON:range of products,I have a book,(sales Literature)of the Product Range,all priced.
My focus at this moment is the PAUL line,I am now into
the 1780s.
thanks for your input,
James Norval Paul
Title: Re: Killearn Gamekeeper
Post by: LindsaySiam on Tuesday 03 February 09 16:49 GMT (UK)
Hello James, my interest is more in Killearn, 99% of Morrisons in Killearn in 1840's to 1880's are my family.

I do have a small connection to an Alexander Paul (born c. 1849 in Killearn), he married Margaret Pollock Graham on 25th January 1881. Their daughter would have been my 2C3R.

Alexander (in case you don't have this) son of John Paul and Elizabeth King, died 8th July 1903 at 260, Garscube Road, Glasgow of Apoplexia and Secondary Paralysis.   It is quite a sad story ... his wife Margaret (my 1C4R) died 1 year and 2 days after their marriage of an embolism following the birth of their daughter, Mary Paul (born 16th January 1882).  He had small Mary's birth certificate altered and changed her name to Maggie Mary Paul.

Alexander never remarried after the death of Margaret. I am not sure what happened to Maggie Mary afterwards but I do know that she was included in the will of her great grandfather, Thomas Meikle who died in 1890 - he left her 19 pounds and 19 shillings sterling - "to the little daughter of my grand-daughter Margaret Graham in the event of her surviving at my decease".

I have also another Paul connection - a Margaret Ann Paul (daughter of George Paul and Margaret McKinley) married Robert Scott of Killearn in 1895. Robert was my 1C3R, I have a suspicion - unchecked - that Margaret McKinley was also connected to me.

Funnily enough this twice in the last week that these Pauls (my connections) have come up, I will check the details and let you know if the other person.

regards,

Lindsay
Title: Re: Killearn Gamekeeper
Post by: jamesnpaul on Thursday 13 May 10 09:21 BST (UK)
Killearn Gamekeepers,todate I have found  7 no Gamekeepers in the PAUL family:
Robert Paul      -1804-1885
Janet Gardner  -1805-1904  Spouse

Robert Paul      -1843-1929
Annie Norval    - 1850-1910 Spouse

James N Paul   - 1881-1958
Jane Hamilton  - 1880-1970

Robert Paul      -1871-1895   death,shotgun accident
john Paul         - 1887-1976
walter Paul      -1878-1935

Robert Paul     -1909-1986
Agnes M Bain  -1905-1986

Robert 1843-James 1881- Robert 1909 all worked at Duntreath Castle,Strathblane,total service 114 yrs.
Can anyone help with the Parents of Walter Paul 1755-1808 and Margaret Watson,I am 100% certain of all the others,have family data on record,
Jamesnpaul

Title: Re: Killearn Gamekeeper
Post by: ojay20 on Sunday 28 April 13 21:30 BST (UK)
Killearn Gamekeepers,todate I have found  7 no Gamekeepers in the PAUL family:
Robert Paul      -1804-1885
Janet Gardner  -1805-1904  Spouse

Robert Paul      -1843-1929
Annie Norval    - 1850-1910 Spouse

James N Paul   - 1881-1958
Jane Hamilton  - 1880-1970

Robert Paul      -1871-1895   death,shotgun accident
john Paul         - 1887-1976
walter Paul      -1878-1935

Robert Paul     -1909-1986
Agnes M Bain  -1905-1986

Robert 1843-James 1881- Robert 1909 all worked at Duntreath Castle,Strathblane,total service 114 yrs.
Can anyone help with the Parents of Walter Paul 1755-1808 and Margaret Watson,I am 100% certain of all the others,have family data on record,
Jamesnpaul
[/quote
I have just found all this and it has really intrigued me. I was directed to this site while searching for details of my grandmother Jessie McDonald whose husband was Walter Paul. I knew I was related to Jackie Stewart. but did not know exactly how. My maiden name is Paul and we did not know till recently that my grandfather had so many siblings.  Do you have the tree recorded on ancestry.com so myself and cousins can see it. My father Archibald Paul was 1 of 8 children so it was a big family.
Title: Re: Killearn Gamekeeper
Post by: jamesnpaul on Monday 29 April 13 08:06 BST (UK)
Hello ojay20,
Thanks for the mail,yes,I am on ancestry.com,the PAUL tree has the detail,please contact me thro Ancestry.com,be really pleased,
Regards,
Jamesnpaul78
Title: Re: Killearn Gamekeeper
Post by: ojay20 on Monday 29 April 13 09:02 BST (UK)
Hi-Hume ,EV,ANN.Many thanks for your interest,  ANN has identified my great  grandfather Robert Paul and greatgrand mother Annie norval of which I have a portrait .I also now have the date of Robert jnrs death.Another piece in the jigsaw.

On the subject of Maggie Young, Roberts intended she may have been carrying his child?

regards Roony.

Hi Roony,  We are related as my grandfather was Walter Paul ( who had 8 children with Jessie McDonald) and we knew of the link to Jackie Stewart. I have a photo of Grandpa Walter but would be interested in seeing the one you have of his parents. Is this on the internet somewhere?
Thanks Olivia
Title: Re: Killearn Gamekeeper
Post by: jamesnpaul on Monday 29 April 13 11:36 BST (UK)
Hello,
See your reply to Roony,he is my Cousin,Annie Norval is our joint G,G Grandmother,yours also I think?.
Note your comments re 8 children by Jessie and Walter,I have 2 only,is it possible to give a list of names,dates,you may be my second cousin... ,need to mark email contact.
Best Regards,
Jamesnpaul78
Title: Re: Killearn Gamekeeper
Post by: ojay20 on Monday 29 April 13 22:39 BST (UK)
Hello,
See your reply to Roony,he is my Cousin,Annie Norval is our joint G,G Grandmother,yours also I think?.
Note your comments re 8 children by Jessie and Walter,I have 2 only,is it possible to give a list of names,dates,you may be my second cousin... ,need to mark email contact.
Best Regards,
Jamesnpaul78
Happy to do this once I have found my way around ancestry.com as I seemed to be directed to a site "Mundia" today which had a warning with it that it was unsecured.  Will get in touch with one of my other cousins who has been researching family for a few years and will have allthe dates etc.
Title: Re: Killearn Gamekeeper
Post by: Robneve on Monday 06 May 13 17:55 BST (UK)
Hi Roony.

I have sent you a P.M. on this.

Robert was born on December 2, 1871 in Strathblane and died as you said, of a shotgun accident on October 19, 1875.  He was my wife's second cousin.  At the moment, I do not know what happened to Maggie.

Regards,
Rob.
Title: Re: Killearn Gamekeeper
Post by: charmonium on Tuesday 04 February 14 18:38 GMT (UK)
Hi Ojay20

Can't reply to your message - not enough posts I think

Anne Norval (mRobert Paul was my ggaunt). Just know story about Jackie Stewart through mother and probably she heard through her father. Don't have conclusive proof of the Margaret Young's son being Robert Paul's child but birth record has Paul as middle name. I believe there was other circumstantial evidence fitting the family story but that was researched by my mother and I am not fully familiar with it.
Title: Re: Killearn Gamekeeper
Post by: lyle davis on Tuesday 21 February 17 18:54 GMT (UK)
a question for LindsaySiam regarding the McKinley's. You noted: 'I have also another Paul connection - a Margaret Ann Paul (daughter of George Paul and Margaret McKinley) married Robert Scott of Killearn in 1895. Robert was my 1C3R, I have a suspicion - unchecked - that Margaret McKinley was also connected to me.'
My great grandmother was Mary McKinley from the Killearn area. She arrived in Canada March 1881 at the age of 18, with Walter Buchanan (19), and they were married at that time or shortly after. I wonder if Margaret and Mary are related, maybe sisters?