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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Perthshire => Topic started by: prophetess on Thursday 31 January 08 01:29 GMT (UK)
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I have a major brick wall I have Andrew Robertson a Farmer died bef May 1875, married to Jane?
Children were
Janie( jeanie) Barclay Robertson abt 1846
Margaret Robertson abt 1847
David Robertson abt 1851
and Eliza Robertson, abt 1853
Eliza married and died in Ulveston, and the family were there for some time, only birth info I have is aprox birth and Scotland, except one of the census's Janie states born in Perth,
Eliza I have no idea where she was born as I have not found her on any census , she was my 2x great grandmother .
would like to find more info on my Robertson's
Margaret married William Morrison a brewer and 1901 they are in Devon,
3x Grt Grandmother I think also died in Derby
Hope you can help
Sybil
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Hi Sybil
In order to establish a starting point......I had a lot of my immediate questions answered by looking at a previous post:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,233953.0.html
Andrew ROBERTSON place of birth and approx year of birth. - UNKNOWN.
He was a Farmer.
Was deceased before his daughter Eliza married in Lancashire England May 1874.
Place of Death - Unknown
His widow
Jane (UNKNOWN MAIDEN NAME)
was born abt 1822 Scotland, (Perthshire according to 1 census)
Census 1881: Lancashire with her married daughter Margaret & her family.
Census 1891: Lancashire with her unmarried daughter JD (Janie)
Census 1901: Lancashire with her Dau Janie 45 son David age 50, and a Grandson Joseph 18
Their children:
Daughter: Janie Barclay Robertson abt 1846 - Scotland
Born in Perthsire according to 1 Census.
She never appeared to have married.
Census 1881 - In Lancashire, enumerated on her own, as Head (dau).
Census 1891 - In Lancashire with her mother
Census 1901 - with her mother, and brother David.
Daughter: Margaret Robertson abt 1847 - Scotland
She married WIlliam BREWER.
Census 1881 Lancashire, with her husband - her mother is there too.
Census 1891 and 1901 Cheshire 7 Devon - Margaret's age was consistent, and her birthplace was always down as "Scotland".
Son: David Robertson abt 1851 - Scotland
Census 1881 - ??
Census 1891 - ??
Census 1901- with his mother in Lancashire. The Grandson (of Jane) named Joseph ROBERTSON, born in Manchester abt 1883, may belong to David. David is listed as married - but no wife. His occupation is listed as a Surgeon.
Dau: Eliza Robertson, abt 1853 - unknown place of birth - may be Scotland
married May 1874 Lancs to Daniel Allan and died a year later.
Have never found Eliza on a Census. Her address on marriage, and death was 4 Tay Street, Hindpool, Barrow, Lancashire - Daniel was from Findhorn.
Her occupation on marriage was "Weaver". You have been told she was interred in a common grave (known as paupers grave) and there is no headstone.
CENSUS:
1881 : 79 Meadow Street, Moss Side, Hulme, Lancashire
Ref: RG11 / Piece 3938 / Folio: 95 / Pg 11
MORISSON (sic) William, Head, 35, b Ireland, Brewer's Clark
Do Margaret, Wife, 34, b Scotland (i.e. b ca 1847)
Do Joseph, Son, 3, b Moss Side
Do Jane B, Daughter, 6m, b Moss Side
ROBERTSON Jane, Mother-in-law, Widow, 59, b Scotland, formerly Farmer's Wife
Daughter Janie
1881:1 Dudley St, Stretford, Lancashire
Ref: RG11 / Piece 3887 / Folio / 69 / Pg 32
Head (Dau): Jeanie ROBERTSON, Unmarried, 35, born Scotland, (Formerly Farmer's Daughter)
She is the only person in the household. Possibly her mother Jane usually lived here, but on Census night at least, was away tending to her other daughter Margaret who had a new baby.
1891: 5 Dudley St, Stretford, Lancashire.
Ref: RG12 / Piece: 3159 / Folio 25 / Pg 41 (Barton upon Orwell District)
Head: Jane ROBERTSON 69, widow, living on her own means , b Perthshire, Scotland
Dau: J D ROBERTSON age 45, born Perthshire, Scotland
1901: 79 Bishop Street, Moss Side, Hulme, Lancashire
Ref: RG13 / Piece 3709 / Folio 30 / Pg 51 (Chorlton District)
Head: Jane Robertson 79 Wid, Living on her own Means, b Scotland
Dau: Janie ROBERTSON 55 single, b Scotland;
Son: David ROBERTSON 50 married, Surgeon (own account) born Scotland;
Grandson Joseph ROBERTSON 18, single b Manchester, Lancashire
(Joseph may be David's son)
Did you realise Davd was a Surgeon?
In the 1901 - his occupation has not been crossed out (as had been suggested on another topic). Rather the enumerator (or his supervisor) has made a marking thru it, and thru other entries - done when they are checking and counting his entries on the page. It clearly says "Surgeon" to me.
So this all tells us - the family were in England by 1881, and possibly (excepting Andrew) by May 1874 when Eliza wed. Who witnessed her marriage (ie: can we place her mother or siblings in Lancashire in 1874?)
Have you confirmed Janie's middle name was "Barclay" ? I know this was the middle name of Margaret's daughter - but Janie is listed as J.D. in that one Census.....?
Cheers
AMBLY
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Hi Sybil ...... good to see you !
This is just a little aside .... but if your David was a doctor you may be able to get some information here .... they ask for a donation .... :) they were very helpful to me and a few other people on here !!
Tina Craig ( I just found out Tina retired but I'm sure her successor will be able to help you ! )
Deputy Head of Library and Information Services
Royal College of Surgeons of England
35-43, Lincoln's Inn Fields
London WC2A 3PE
Tel: 0207 869 6520
Fax: 0207 405 4438
http://www.rcseng.ac.uk/contact/index.html#library
Annie :)
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Whaow ambly.............. Ok let me refresh my memory,
Eliza and Daniels Marriage Witness's were Henry Patterson and Jane Robertson, William Henry Fotheringill Minister, so her mother I assume is the witness, as the census refers to her as Jeanie/janie.
My error on Janies middle name it was Margarets Daughter who was Jane Barclay ( who I found out went to New York at the age of 45 Unmarried and her brother was the captian of the ship, Last Night so advancement there)
I have no idea what the D stands for in Janies name.
The really exciting thing her is that I had no idea David was a Surgeon, so will follow that up with Annies link, Thanks for that Annie
Looking like a chip out the robertson line here :D
Thanks Sybil
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Hi Sybil and Annie ;D
This is the part of the image for David 1901 - see what you think ???
Son, M(arried), age 50, Surgeon
Gosh, I keep looking at it and getting less & less sure than I was yesterday.......... :'( does it say Surgeon? Pretty sure it's an S at the start - but is that a g or a y?? and is that an e after it?
If he is a Surgeon.....Hopefully he can be found via Annie's link - but wonder if he could also have done his training in Scotland....? Very odd we can't find him pre 1901! He must be someplace surely...unless by 1881 he had already done his training and had gone 'abroad'.. then again, if Joseph b 1883 Manchester is his son....
Cheers
AMBLY
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Hi Girls !
Looks like surgeon to me Ambly !
Possibly he could have gone to into the Army or something similar - as he was a doctor !! :)
Annie :)
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I think You are right Ambly I looked at it on Ancestry and it sure looks like surgeom to me
Sybil
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Hi Sybil!
I'm nearly bald looking at this one, anf they're not even mine ;D ;D
I just saw you come on, so I'm going to post what I've been churning over - now, forgive me, if I get the wrong end of any sticks and put me right....but here goes!
This is a whole bucketful of mysteries!
Can't find any of them pre 1881 in Scotland, England
Can't find Margaret's marriage to William MOR(R)IS(S)ON
(she was in her 30's with 2 little ones 1881 - could have been married before, and married Irish born William under different name)
Can't find David before 1901 in England, Scotland . He was apparently married by 1901, He would surely have already been a Doctor by 1881.
Can find a marriage of a David ROBERTSON to an Esther JAMES. (on FREEBMD and Lancs BMD in Chorlton RD. Can't find them on a Census!
The Grandson in 1901....Joseph ROBERTSON born abt 1883 Manchester.....
Searching "Lancashire" births only 3 came up between 1880 & 1885 incl, but one is registered Sep 1881 - so most likely he'd be one of these two:
Joseph Thomas ROBERTSON - Jun Qtr 1880 Warrington - he is with his parents in Warrington 1891 & 1901.(His father is a 50 yr old named Andrew! born Berwick on Tweed)
or: Joseph Drummond ROBERTSON - Jun Qtr 1883 Chorlton - him?
Can find a Joseph ROBERTSON, in Moss Side in 1891 (covered by the Chorlton RD)
Ref: RG12; Piece: 3199; Folio 135; Page 19
Head: John ROBERTSON 38, Jeweller, b Scotland
Wife: Martha F ROBERTSON 35, b Ireland
Dau: Jane A ROBERTSON 11, b Manchester
Dau: Evelyn ROBERTSON 9, b Liverpool
Son: Joseph ROBERTSON 8, b Manchester
Servant: Alice HEYES 20, General Servant, b Wales
In 1901, Son Joseph is not with them (ie: is he the one visiting Granny in Moss side?)
1901: 87 Fitzwarren Street, Pendleton, Salford, Lancashire
Ref: Class: RG13; Piece: 3718; Folio: 84; Page: 4.
Head: John ROBERTSON 48, Commercial Traveller, b Scotland
Wife: Martha F ROBERTSON 45, b Ireland
Dau: Evelyne ROBERTSON 19, unm, Music Teacher (own account - At home), b Liverpool Lancs
John could be another child of Jane, sibling to Janie D,, Margaret, David.....
Cannot find marriage of John to Martha F. (Martha F ROBERTSON died age 56 in 1912 Chorlton )
Cannot find any of their family before 1881
To me "feels" like Ireland looming...for example a scenario:
1) They were Non-Conformist (you can't find Parish records in Scotland) [but see next msg below]
2) They ended up in ?Ireland? and came over to between 1871 and 1875 England from there!
3) Margaret married her Irish husband not in England (in Ireland? In Scotland?)
4) David married in England, but went to Ireland and came back to visit his elderly Mum in 1901. He may even have done his Medical training in Ireland (Dublin??)
5) Possible other son/sibling John, married his Irish wife in Ireland.
next part coming up...
cheers
AMBLY
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This really bother me though.......
The ROBERTSON'S we are following (or trying to ;D) on one hand hand....
* Mother Jane is "Living on her own means" as a widow of a farmer
* Son David is a Surgeon and almost assuredly had completed his medical training by 1881.
* Daughter Janie D has never an occupation beyond "farmers daughter" (never any Notation on the Census to indicate any disability??)
* Daughter Margaret, married by 1881, has servants in the later Census.
This all points to a family, who were doing all right economicly...middle class, upper middle class? yet......on the other hand
* Eliza, stated to be was a Weaver when she married - she was working for her living - working/labouring class type of job?
* She was buried in a common grave.
* Her mother or a sister, or a relative was probably the female witness to the marriage
* Her mother informed of her death at Tay Street
* In 1881, a total of 33 people are enumerated at 4 Tay Street,
Since her mother registered her death, and likely stood as witness at her wedding, Eliza was seemingly not on the outer with her well-ish off family thereby being forced into reduced circumstance even in death - the family we believe she came from, is relatively well off - yet Eliza is buried as a Pauper, or at least in a Pauper's grave? This does not seem to fit....... ???
My question is:
Jane ROBERTSON, informant on Eliza's death Cert - did it give an address for the informant?
Is there any other proof that the Jane ROBERTSON in Moss Side is Eliza's mother?
Is there any proof that Moss Side Jane was a widow of Andrew ROBERTSON.
Is there any other proof that Eliza's mother was Scotswoman?
because I just found something really interesting ......about to type it up now..... ;D
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This is what I found on IGI (extracted records:--
David ROBERTSON and Jane FOWLIS married 2 Jun 1848 (sic) Auchterarder, Perthshire
had the following children all born in Auchterarder, Perthshire
Jane ROBERTSON - born 28 Apr 1845
Margaret ROBERTSON - born 16 Mar 1847
Joseph ROBERTSON - born 11 Nov 1849
David ROBERTSON - born 14 Aug 1850
John ROBERTSON - born 22 Jun 1852
This sure looks like those Moss Siders..... ???
Cheers
AMBLY
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And......Age is a bit out , but is this another brother in the 'family line of work"?
Again - an Irish Spouse......
1881: 60 Bolton Road, Over Darwen, Lancashire
Ref: RG11; Piece: 4204; Folio: 64; Page: 56;
Head: Joseph ROBERTSON 38, General Practitioner MDLRCP.FR.C.S, b Scotland
Wife: Maria ROBERTSON 28, b Ireland
(Quick look didn't immediately see him 1891/1901)
And the family in 1851:
Loanfoot, Auchterarder, Perthshire
Parish:329, ED 2, pg 9
Head: David ROBERTSON 40, Cattle Dealer, b Blackford, Perthshire
Wife: Jean ROBERTSON 30, b Auchterarder, Perthshire (abt 1821)
Dau: Jean ROBERTSON 6, b b Auchterarder
Dau: Margaret ROBERTSON 4, b Auchterarder
Son: Joseph ROBERTSON 2, b Auchterarder
Son: David ROBERTSON 6 mths, b Auchterarder
Serv: Mary McCULLOCH 18, House Servant, b Creiff, Perthshire
(Quick look, didn't see them in 1861.....)
Cheers
AMBLY
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Hi Ambley wee bairn form chat found this last night and sent it to me so think this is David
http://content.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7572&iid=WRYRG11_4380_4383-0091&fn=David&ln=Robertson&st=r&ssrc=&pid=24064062
and And here's david in 1891....
http://content.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=6598&iid=WRYRG12_3565_3567-0303&fn=David&ln=Robertson&st=r&ssrc=&pid=59889
I think Margaret could have went to ireland possibly or she might have been married before,
I agree it is a bucket full of mysteries, well Ambly I am grey with this one , can I buy you a wig ;)
apprecating all the help on this lot, Eliza's marriage cert and Death cert gives nothing much away,
ty
Sybil
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Hi Ambley, I will Look out Eliza's Death cert and look I dont remember there being an address for informant but looked at notes on the FTM file and have put this in ( Note in Margin Forty Two Initialed by Registrar George Simpson , Cause of Death Pepetual Fever 3 Weeks Registered By Mother Jane Robertson )
I will take a look later today, Wish they had remained in scotland, because there is more info on the certificates,
(I think Jane may have died in W. Derby March 1906 Robertson Jane 84 )
and there are certianly the reaccuant family names,
Sorry your going bald but I appreciate the help very much Promise to send you a wig at the end
Sybil
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Oh my Gosh Sybil!!
Is there such a thing as going balder...... :P I can't tell you how many different ways I tried to find that David in 1881/1891...and there he is as large as life!!!!!! A Clever lassie who found him - I was dancing when I saw your message about that. ;D
My husband always says he likes blondes - but it don't match me eyebrows, so I'll stick to something in Nice n' Easy Shade 120, ta very much ;D
And a Welsh wife - this may be the stroke of luck you're looking for then....to confirm the name of Moss Side Jane's late husband?
MARRIAGE:
David Drummond ROBERTSON married Sep Qtr 1878 Bedwelty, Monmouthshire Ref: Vol:11a, pg 105 - and one of the brides on same page is Elizabeth Catherine ANTHONY.
Recalling, Drummond was also the middle name of that Joseph born Chorlton district Manchester 1883, who I think is a) son of John and Martha F. and b) the Grandson in Jane's house 1901.
Cheers
AMBLY
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I could not make out in 1891 it came up with Gerdadar Mon, Scotland
but yes 1881 says ahe is welsh, ;D
definatly him thanks just the rest to crack ;) :'(
Sybil
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The place of birth for Elizabeth is "Tredegar" on that Census. ;D
IGI: Elizabeth Catherine ANTHONY
chr 07 Jun 1854 Tredegar, Monmouth, to Thomas George ANTHONY and Sarah Anne
I wonder now if Janie / JD is middle name "Drummond" too...........
cheers ;D
AMBLY
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Hi ambly my thoughts exactly on JD and I wonder if her mother is Jane Drummond, only problem is I have not found a Jane Drummond married to a Andrew Robertson,
but I have been in touch with college of surgeons and if he registered with them I an in luck,
Just looked at the death and marriage cert for Eliza, her mother registered her death, she died 15 days after my great grandmother was born my 2x great grandfather did not register the death her mother Jane did ??? Jane was unable to write and signed with her x mark, the same for the Jane who was witness at the marriage, so pretty sure her mother witnessed the marriage,
the marriage cert states Father Andrew Robertson ( deceased) Farmer.
so given Jane was a witness I am pretty sure that Andrew Is the Fathers Name
as you say the family seem to be well off, so why is Eliza in common Grave,
Eliza and Daniel's Daughter in 1881 is living in Findhorn Morayshire with Her Grandmother Catherine Allan, I don't understand why she was living with a grandmother who is 81, when there is family probably more able to look after her there, and better off.
but at lest we have got one cracked ;D unless they to have mysteries to emerge
Sybil
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Hey Ambly had a wee look on the census for Elizabeth Cathrine Anthony guess what her father was???????? :P.....................A Surgeon think I know how they may have met.
Sybil
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Hi Ambley thanks to your sharp eye spotting David was a Surgeon , a little help from some of the chat group, and an early birthday pressie from my hubby ( findmypast subscription) I have Davids Medical register details, still have not found out where they came from in Perth, but it does look like the family went to Ireland, and that may be where Margaret met and married William ,
David was at Queens University Ireland, qualifying as a Master Surgeon in 1877 so that is why he didn't appear until later, his father in law is also a surgeon and I think that is how he met Elizabeth,
I know David was alive in 1913, I think his mother died in Dalton in 1906, so I think I will have to get a few more certs and write a few letters, to see if I can find more on David, and Hopefully that may lead to finding out where exactly they were from, and enable me to get them back further.
Thanks for all your help
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Hi Ambley, ;D
I was checking stuff for Auchterarder when I came across my Robertson Post,
Thought i would up date you, on the recent findings,
The David Robertson and Jane Fowlis are the Right ones, His name wasn't Andrew at all, they family went to Ireland, my 2 x grt Gran seems to have appeared in england first, ( theory ran away to marry)
the Jeweler John is mine also,
thanks to help in roots 1911 census, and Queens Uni Belfast, who sent me the information on David,
Thought I had better update you, and all the hard work that you put in was not in vain,
Sorry hope your hair has grown back in ::) :-*
Thank you so very very much :-* :-* :-* :-*
Will share the gold when i find it ;)
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Cor, Sybil!
Wonderful news - thanks for the update - I do like to hear how things go!
I might need that gold to buy that wig after reading all that back now and trying to keep it in a straight line thought-wise ;D Amazing how it all seems so clear when one's in the searching moment, but try going over it months later and I confused myself ::)
Cheers
AMBLY
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I wonder why 2x Great Gran gave her fathers name as Andrew, Was it, just to , make life difficult for her 2 x Great Grandaughter, and drive her demented? ??? ??? ??? ::) ::)
Well it looks like there was wealth in the family after all Ambley because most of them seemed to have servants, ;D ;D ;D
I aways knew I had breading in those Gene's ;D ;D 8)
makes a change from inbreeding :o :-[ :-X
Sybil,
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LOL ;D
I always say, a gal's gotta have at least one good pair of genes in the closet....hung right up there next to the skeletons! ;D ;D ;D
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Roflol ;D I like it Ambly
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I Cant believe 10months have passed since i posted any news to you Ambly,
I took a trip up to Bridge of Allan to a B&B for two nights last year and went to Blackford and Auchterarder, to see where my Robertsons originally came from,
had a wander round the cemetery in the town in Auchterarder and took a few shots of some headstones, as you do Recently sorting stuff out i looked again at the Auchterarder and Blackford Photos,
and could believe what i had,
I had found the marriage of David Robertson and Jane Fowlis, also on the 1841 census have David in over Coul as a Farmer and right next to him is Fowlis
and if this is the right Fowlis then this is her parents headstone, got to do a bit of reseach but i have not done any for months
I feel more and more that Eliza was born in Ireland not in Scotland
will keep you posted as i learn more,
Thanks for All the hard work you have done for me
Sybil
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Hi Sybil
The mother of Joseph Drummond Robertson referred to, is the son of my great grand aunt Martha Fanny Steele, Martha being the sister of my great grandmother, Jane Jessie Steele. This Steele family is from Limavady, Northern Ireland.
I have a photograph of Martha and her husband John Robertson which hopefully is attached here.
Graeme
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Hi Grae,
Sorry I have only just seen this post kinda took a break from the tree for a bit and got back into it again, still not 100% sure of the connection it is proving it that's still my problem but since then I know that my great great grandfather who married Eliza Robertson Died at sea in December 1880
Fingers crossed Beautiful photo
Sybil