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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: bushpoet on Sunday 08 June 08 01:24 BST (UK)
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G'day Folks.
I have an ancestor by the name of William Broggy who fell victim to the judicial system for stealing a pig at 24 years of age and therefore sent before the bench and tried in Limerick on the 13th March 1828 and sentenced to seven years servitude.
William’s servitude was to be carried out in the colony of New South Wales and he would make the journey upon the ‘Governor Ready’, which sailed from Cork on the 21st of September 1828, under the Captaincy of John Young and reached Sydney on the 16th of January 1829.
His name was listed on the ship’s indents under Broggy. William was five feet two and a half inches [1.59 meters] and had dark brown hair. The record shows him assigned to an Elizabeth Pitt of Richmond in Cumberland County.
He eventually obtained a Ticket of Leave in 1833, but was finally granted a Certificate of Freedom in September of 1835. The documents still showed his name as William Broggy.
William entered into a relationship with a Mary White, though no record can be found of their applying for marriage banns. A son Michael was born on the 11th of April,1839, in the county of Cumberland. He was baptised on the 17th of May 1840 by the Catholic minister, Joseph Platt. The birth was registered in Sydney in the parish of St James and now showed William’s surname as Brophy and Mary White his mother. In 1843 William and Mary again had a child, this time a daughter, but the parish is not stated. They called their daughter Margaret Brophy.
Records then showed that William Brophy died in 1844, though details on the death certificate are very limited . His age is shown as 40 years, which fits in with the age of William Broggy and The ship, ‘Governor Ready’ was recorded as to how the person arrived in the colony. Though the surname on the indents shows Broggy and not Brophy. No wife or children are recorded, which may be in holding with the theory that he and Mary did not have marriage banns.
As initially mentioned, the ‘Governor Ready’s’ ships indents show no record of a William Brophy, but that of a William Broggy. I have concluded that William Broggy and William Brophy were one and the same.
QUESTION:
Is the listing on the Indents of the Governor Ready an accurate recording of the surname or a misspelling, seeing that Williams later records show the surname Brophy.
Or was William just trying to start a new life with his partner and throwing off the link with his convict past?
Is the name surname Broggy an old established Irish Surname and what time period does it go back to.
OR
Has it been derived over the years from misspelling.
I believe there are Broggy families around the Limerick area, and no disrespect to the origin of their surname.
I just wish to know if William was a Broggy or a Brophy.
Williams story can be seen at
http://users.tpg.com.au/thegrey/Callaghans.htm#William%20Brophy
Appreciate any help or a link to any Broggy or Brophy families originating from around the Limerick District.
Merv Webster
www.users.tpg.com.au/thegrey
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Hello Merv,
As far as I'm aware Broggy is not an old Irish name.
The only Broggys in Ireland listed in Griffiths Valuation were in Co. Clare in 1855.
Daniel Broggy, Derrymore, Killeely. Clare
Patrick Broggy, Derrymore, Killeely. Clare
Christopher
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G'day Christopher. Thanks for the reply mate.
Any opinion on the surname Broggy recorded on the Ship's Indents [Leaving Cork] and later in Australia the birth of his children under Brophy and his death record as Brophy.
Merv
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Hello Merv,
I'd be inclined to agree with you ...
William Broggy and William Brophy are probably the one and same person.
Christopher
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I'm kind of left wondering if I'm chasing Broggy or Brophy back around Limerick in 1828.
Merv
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Would love to hear from any families or anyone who have a connection with the surname Broggy around the Limerick area.
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Not sure how familiar you are with research in Ireland but since you started this topic there have been a number of major developments.
The 1911 census is now online free at http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/
Too late for your needs but it does show one Alice Broggy in Clare (which is just up the road from Limerick).
Also, the Civil register is now available free at http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=collectionDetails&c=fs%3A1408347
It shows 50 results for Clare/Limerick but again, a little too late for your needs as it starts in 1845 for Establishment and Registry Office marriages and for all other records in 1864.
To find your William you will need to consult church records. The IFHF site at http://ifhf.brsgenealogy.com/ might work for you but beware, it is very expensive at 5 Euro per view and it is not a complete record. On a quick viewing I'm not seeing any likely matches.
What grounds have you for believing that William Brophy and William Broggy are the same person?
Dara.
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Hi Dara. Thanks for posting. The inital post should explain the connection for Broggy and Brophy.
If still unclear please let me know.
Merv
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Is the listing on the Indents of the Governor Ready an accurate recording of the surname or a misspelling, seeing that Williams later records show the surname Brophy.
Or was William just trying to start a new life with his partner and throwing off the link with his convict past?
Is the name surname Broggy an old established Irish Surname and what time period does it go back to.
OR
Has it been derived over the years from misspelling.
I believe there are Broggy families around the Limerick area, and no disrespect to the origin of their surname.
I just wish to know if William was a Broggy or a Brophy.
This is very confusing.
In answer to your first question I would have to say that the accuracy of Ship's records were just about as accurate as any record that was transcribed at that time.
Your speculation on William changing his name to cover his convict past is plausible but still speculation.
The name Broggy goes back to the start of Church Records so there's no reason to believe that it wasn't around for a long time before that. If you check the IFHF link I posted earlier you can see that for yourself.
No, it hasn't been derived from mis-spelling. If you check the current phone directory you will find it still in the Limerick/Clare area. http://www.eircomphonebook.ie/
If you could find a Court Record of William's conviction in 1828 that would answer all your questions.
Good luck with your search.
Dara.
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You're telling me.
Convict records show him as William Broggy, ships indents 1828, ticket of leave 1833, certificate of freedom 1835.
The birth/baptism records of his two children show Brophy, Michael 1839 and Margaret 1843.
and his death records 1844 shows William Brophy and he arrived via the Governor Ready.
There was no William Brophy on the Governor Ready but indents show William Broggy.
Would be great to get some details from an orginal conviction ... but where?
Appreciate your posts.
Merv
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There are old newspaper microfilms going back to the mid 1700's. See here:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/08ov/
Somebody on here might oblige you on their next visit to the National Library.
Dara.
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Thank you Dara.
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Well it's been a while but I've recently found a Broggy family at Derrymore and have been following their line back.
Got back to a Matthew Henry Broggy born about 1843.
I've two records for his marriage.
Name: Ellen Thorn
Matthew Broggie
Date of Registration: 1865
Registration district: Cork, Ireland
Volume: 10
Page Number: 72
FHL Film Number: 101249
Name Matthew Broffie
Spouse's Name Ellen Thorn
Event Date 04 Apr 1865
Event Place St Anne Shandon, Cork, Ireland
Father's Name Daniel Broffie
Spouse's Father's Name Robert Thorn
I believe the two records refer to the same marriage.
The latter reveals Matthew's father as Daniel.
I found another record but it had no records to authenticate it but it suggests that
Matthew's parents may have been
Daniel and Bridget [Omeara] Broggy.
One might assume that Matthew's father Daniel would have been at least 20 yrs when he married so that would bring his birth back to around 1820's.
Can anyone help authenticate the record at all please.
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noticed by 1911 they are Bruggy's
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Clare/Killeely/Derry_More/367202/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Limerick/Limerick_North/Clonconane/624727/
1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Clare/Killeely/Derrymore/1083941/
tithe applotments 1833 Danl Bruggy
http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/reels/tab//004625673/004625673_00065.pdf
Death
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FRTV-Y3J
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G'day dathai,
Appreciate your reply.
The first 1911 census shows Matthew Henry born 1866 and his two children.
Surprised that his wife Catherine who is on the 1901 census is not there. She died in 1940.
The second 1911 census was helpful as I have that family line on record but it showed me that their first child Matthew must have died as he was born in 1903 but not mentioned in 1911.
The 1901 Census I was aware of .
The 1833 Tithe Applotment record puts Daniel in Derrymore. That's great as the family seems to have been farming there all through these years.
Just have to nut out Matthew Henry 1911 census.
Once again many thanks for the help.
Finding records pre 1850's is hard work.
I'm hoping by following this line I might work back to the 1800's and find a connection to my ggggrandfather William Broggy who was born 1804/5 and tried in Limerick in 1828.
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might be Catherine 1911 as Kate
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Limerick/Emlygrennan/Cush/620306/
son Matthew
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FTFK-RM9
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Hi dathai,
The record of Kate at the Gubbins residence makes sense and tallies with what I know.
It appears that Catherine was married to a Thomas Frost before Matthew, and the William Shaughnessy in the 1901 record was her son to him.
I had wondered if Matthew and Catherine had anymore children then Ellen B1902 and Matthew Jnr B1903. but it looks like with the two marriages there were three in all.
Interesting that the surname Frost appears in the Griffiths Valuation as the Lessor to land worked by a Daniel and Patrick Broggy.
Ireland, Griffith’s Valuation, 1847-1864
Clare, Bunratty, Lower Killeely
Occupier: Daniel Broggy
Lessor: James Frost
County: Clare
Barony: Bunratty, Lower
Parish: Killeely
Townland: Derrymore
OS Page Numbers: 52 and 62
Occupier: Patrick Broggy
Lessor: James Frost
County: Clare
Barony: Bunratty, Lower
Parish: Killeely
Townland: Derrymore
OS Page Numbers: 52 and 62
I wonder if Catherine's Thomas Frost is related to James Frost the Lessor and that Matthew B1843 knew Catherine because the Daniel above was his father? Interesting.
Once again appreciate your help.
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I had wondered if Matthew and Catherine had anymore children then Ellen B1902 and Matthew Jnr B1903. but it looks like with the two marriages there were three in all.
I'll retract that as I've found that Catherine had more children than William.
Makes sense why she only had the two to Matthew.
Still working through this relationship with Thomas Frost and it seems that James Frost was his father.
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How confusing two threads
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=739121.0
Haven't read all of this one but there are Broggy's in Derrymore in Griffiths Valuation a Patrick and a Daniel if memory serves correctly.
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Gáy Sinann.
This is an old post and was wanting to prove Matthew Broggy was the son of Daniel and go back from there.
The other was regarding his brother and trying to prove if I had the correct Birth, marriage and death record. I guess it burst out from there to other family members.
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Re: John and Margaret [Liston] Broggy.
« Reply #14 on: Yesterday at 05:04:40 PM »
Quote
Civil Reg.. Birth, Marriage and Death results for Bruggy
Displaying results 1 - 60 of 60.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01gug/
Birth, Marriage and Death results for Broggy
Displaying results 1 - 23 of 23.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01guh/
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How confusing two threads
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=739121.0
Haven't read all of this one but there are Broggy's in Derrymore in Griffiths Valuation a Patrick and a Daniel if memory serves correctly.
Certainly is confusing.... anyway I posted the Civil Reg stuff on other thread, posting it here too.
Some deaths etc same work out siblings from mother's name etc!!
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It appears that the responses on the link below have broadened to cover much of this threads topic.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=739121.msg5854942#msg5854942
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New research, thanks to Trove Newspapers, has revealed that the William Brophy I was looking for was in fact a Constable in the Sydney Police force. He was living in a defacto relationship with a Mary White.
As Mary White had married a John Callanan in 1846 in Maitland, I believed that William Brophy had died prior to then.
The only death I could find was of a William Brophy who died in November 1844. This seemed to be the man I was after.
But records showed him as coming out on the Governor Ready 2. There is no Brophy recorded on that indent but a William Broggy. I thought that perhaps they were the one person.
Since I have found that William Brophy and Mary White were still living together in 1845 in Sydney, as a report of a home invasion mentions them in the paper.
Another William Brophy who came out on the Larkins died in November 1844 and was attacked and hospitalized and died. The doctor at the time, I believe, tied him to the Governor Ready 2, which I believe is a mistake, and hence it is this William Brophy's death.
Which leaves my William Brophy and Mary White together at the time of home invasion in 1845 but separated by 1846.
I know Mary's story from the time she remarried John Callanan in 1846 but I can't seem to find what actually happened to William Brophy the ex constable.
Commercial Journal and Advertiser (Sydney, NSW : 1835 - 1840), Saturday 29 December 1838, page 2
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Christmas Goose. — A man named Brophy, a discharged constable, with Mary White, were placed at the bar of the Police Office on Monday last, charged with driving a stray goose on Saturday, on to the premises of Brophy, and impounding the same in a cellar. Inspector Hoyle stated that he took the constable into custody, in consequence of his denial of having driven the said goose into the cellar, although he had given up the bird. A man named William Harrington, stated that the goose was sent by his master as a present to a gentleman in Sydney, and as he had brought a load of wood to the house of Dr. Wallace, in Kent-street, he left the goose there, tied with a string ; that it had broken the string and strayed into the street ; and that he was told by Mr. Wallace, the publican, the said con-stable had driven it, with the assistance of Mary White, into the cellar. Borphy at first denied having the goose to Harrington, but on his describing it, with the string upon its leg, it was given up. Mr. A. Levey stated that he had directed the ex-constable (who was a constable at the time) to secure the bird, and added, that probably some one would soon enquire after it. As there was no evidence, which would warrant the Bench in committing the prisoners, the Bench discharged them ; but recommended them to be a little more careful, as it was not legal to impound a stray goose, although if was so near Christ-mas. The Chief Constable was appealed to, as to whether the Police force had been instructed to impound geese, found straying about the streets ; and the reply, was decidedly in the negative.
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Newspaper article showing William Brophy and Mary White together in 1845.