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Some Special Interests => Occupation Interests => Topic started by: Boltonmets on Saturday 14 June 08 14:51 BST (UK)
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Hi All!
I thought I was doing well tracing one of my relatives who was a mariner.
I found his ticket number in BT 114 and then his Register in BT113.
How ever I am having trouble working out what all the numbers mean on the BT113 document. I tried to include the document but it wont send for some reason!!
Can anyone help me translate what all these numbers mean?
Also is there any further information i can gain on him?
His name is Stephen Richardson B: 1797 in Keswick. Ticket no: 60,849.
In the 1861 census he is living in Maryport and I have found his wife and kids in Maryport in the 1851 census. I pressume he will be on a voyage.
Also, what I really want to know is the name of any ships he travelled on. Is this possible to work out?
Many thanks
Chris
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I have managed to down load the relevant section of BT113.
Any help to decipher what this all means would be appreciated.
Thanks
chris
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Hi Boltonmets,
Sorry I cannot answer your question, but please could you advise me on how to go about finding
someone as you seem to have the hang of it.
All I know is that Peter Frederick Callison and maybe his father also a Peter were around Tynemouth
Northumberland 1842-1856 and were recorded as mariners, but were never on the census with the family.
I know I have to go to London to national archives any help would be most appreciated.
Regards
Sirius
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Hi Sirius,
First of all I had to get the relavant mans ticket number, e.g. In my case 60,849. This was gained by applying to the NA for the document BT114. You send off giving the details you have on your man i.e Name, place of birth, etc. When this document comes back check through to find your man. It will state name,place of birth and ticket Number. This is what you need!!!
Then take this ticket number and apply for your mans details in the document BT113. This then gives you what I have scanned and show in my link above.
I love all the detail on the left hand side!! But not sure what ALL the numbers mean. Some relate to journeys eg the number 112 relates to the port Maryport which is where my man was living but not sure on the numbers further down. I think they could be numbers relating to the boats he travelled on but cant find out on the internet and no one has given me any advice on that yet!!
Hope this helps
Chris
ps let me know how you get on!
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How much did it cost to get the relevant number from the NA?
Kooky
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Thats the thing both are only a one page document so I think they were only 40p/80p each plus postage! Bargain!!!
Chris
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Thanks for reply Boltonmets,
One big problem I don't know where they were born the rumour in the family is they came from Denmark this is what I am trying to find out.
Peter Frederick had a brother John he is down as being born in the cape of good hope South Africa
around 1818 on the 1851 census.
Thanks again for your help
Regards
Sirius
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Hi Sirius,
That birth would tie in with the father Peter being a mariner ie children could be born abroad!
I have just checked out how many Callison are in the 1841 and 1851 Census's and it isnt a very common name. I would still send off any details you do have and check out what you get back.(you only need the name but other information will help pin point your man.) There wont be many Callisons recorded as mariners so I think this could give you the lead you require. ie BT114 will state where your man was born!! You would also get on the same page all Callisons. This could give you leads with any others that are Mariners.
BUY BT114!! It will definately help you I think!!
Regards
Chris
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Thanks very much Boltonmets,
Yes Callison is not a very common name sometimes it was Calleson,but that is normal with any
name you are looking for.
Sorry for my ignorance, but I always thought you had to go to the NA at Kew in person and look at
the film like the family records centre in London do you apply online for BT114 or write in ?
Regards
Sirius
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BT 114/4 Name of Seaman: CA - CO
This is where you will get your man from online on the NA website.
Chris
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Hi Boltonmets,
Apply for an estimate for BT 114/4 CA-CO they have come back with £30.00 and it has to
be sent to you on a DVD.
Not sure how you manage to get it on just 1 page.
May have to go in person to NA as off peak train ticket is around £12.
Regards
Sirius
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Hi Sirius,
You have requested a digital copy!! You need to request a paper copy. Also make sure you put the name of the person you are after in the form or the will send you every person CA-CO not just the page you want. I would ring them tommorrow and say you requested a digital copy by accident but actually wanted a paper copy. See what they say!
Chris
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Oops
I did ask for a paper copy, but never put the named down. This is what they said.
We have had to change your preferred medium from 'Paper copies' to 'Digital Images' to accommodate copying your document(s).
Have to try again.
Regards
Sirius
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hi guys
I have posted some further info on these on the other mariner enquiry posting so won't double up there.
The book I refer to explains the codes in detail (some of which no one knows apparently) and the NA guide also is very helpful.
There are men whose tickets were registed at the Cape of Good Hope -this might be relevant if you think someone was born there.
The registers and indexes can be ordered through the Mormons for $A5 so probably only a couple of UK pounds -cheaper than that train fare -if a little slower!
Cheers
Pauleen
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Hi cassmob,
I would be very lucky if I find him in the Cape of Good Hope as the year would have been around
1818.
Regards
Sirius
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hi Sirius
Obviously too late for your person of interest sinve 1818 -these mariner registrations were from 1845 at Cape of Good Hope -but may be of interest to someone out there
Cassmob
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Hello Boltonmets
I have been intrigued by your post on tracing your mariner ancestor. I too am trying to trace a mariner ancestor. Am I correct in saying the BT 114 you mention only covers the years 1845-1854?
I would like to find the years 1880-1893 any ideas on how to access these please?
Many thanks
Nick
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Hi nick,
Yes my thread only covers the dates stated. I have had a quick look at the dates you want but it seems the records are scattered.
Read below taken from NA:
2. Agreement and Crew Lists 1861 - 1938 and 1950 - 1994
In BT 99 , The National Archives holds a random 10% sample of the Agreements and Crew Lists, for the periods 1861 to 1938 and again from 1950 to 1994. For the period 1861 to 1923, they can be searched for on the Catalogue (www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue) using the ship's Official Number (obtainable from the Mercantile Navy Lists). After that date, the Catalogue gives ranges of ship's Official Numbers. See the separate section below on The National Archives' World War 2 holdings.
When the files were being selected for preservation a decision was taken on how to dispose of all those not taken by The National Archives. The National Maritime Museum took 10% and County Record Offices, took some for the period 1863-1913. The rest, approximately 70% of the Agreements and Crew Lists, 1863-1938 and 1951-1976, were transferred to the Maritime History Archive, Memorial University, St John's, Newfoundland, Canada A1C 5S7 (www.mun.ca/mha/).
The National Maritime Museum's 10% sample covers the period 1861-1938 and 1951-1976. Their holdings approximate to 10% over the two periods and were selected by taking the 90% not selected for The National Archives for 1861-1862 and 90% for every year that ended in a figure 5, i.e. 1865, 1875, etc. with the exception of 1945 - see below.
The Maritime History Archive has published the following guides that relate to BT 99 :
Maritime History Archive, A guide to the agreements and crew lists: series II, 1863-1912, (Newfoundland, 1992), I-III
Maritime History Archive, A guide to the agreements and crew lists: series II, 1913-1938, (Newfoundland, 1987)
Microfiche copies of both of these publications are available at the National Archives, and a catalogue of their holdings for this period is also available on the Maritime History Archive website at www.mun.ca/mha/holdings/searchcrew.php. See below for details of the County Record Offices' holdings.
Also I think you should check out www.crewlist.org.uk
It all seems complecated as was the BT records I had to get for my ancestor!!! And even then I do not understand them fully!!!
Hope it helps.
Chris
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That is a very detailed and complete answer. Should keep me busy!
Thanks chris
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Hi Boltonmets,
Had a reply from NA about the Callison's or Calleson's in BT114/4.
"Unfortunately, despite our best efforts, we have been unable to locate
the requested material within the specified document."
Drat! foiled again.
Regards
Sirius
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Chris
Back to your question ;) Its a bit difficult trying to read with my head on one side ;D ;D but in the first home voyage report. I cant read the first words but the bottom is or looks like Zueba 10/7/45 what do you think :-\
Celia
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Chris
I think the column for 1845 says he "joined at Quebec" on the return voyage of the ship. (the name of the ship apparently requires you to look through the shipping for the port of Penzance (the #77) for which it is rotation number 67)....I THINK
He then returns on another ship, registed in Maryport (#112 in a number of the other entries). on this voyage in 1847 I think he is only on the outward (from UK) voyage and I think the notation says he disembarks at St John's. On this voyage he is a Cook (Ck) and seaman (S).
In the 1848 voyages (two) he is a cook.
This is my interpretation of the info based on the Watts book mentioned above but I am certainly not an expert and someone more familiar with these records may come up with better info.
you may already have worked this out -and more besides.
Cheers
Pauleen
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Thanks Celia for your reply.
I do think it says Zueba 10/7/45 but I have no idea what that means. I have googled it, tried to see if it is a place or a registered boat but with no luck!!
Any ideas what it could refer to?
Thanks also to Pauleen,
I have now worked out what some of the numbers refer to. E.g The 1845 voyage
Out: 11 Is Berwick and In: 112 is Maryport.
Also Out: 12 is Bideford In is 45 Grangemouth etc
However this does not give me the ships name only the voyage it took.
The numbers underneath e.g. 07772 and 87149 are what I do not understand!!
Also It says "........... at Zueba 10/7/45". What does that refer to?
Also on the1847 journey what does ".......... at St Johns 18/8/47" refer to as part of the out journey?
I dont think it says Quebec and the IN/Out Ports recorded numbers through out the record are all in the British Isles.
I am not sure that the record gives me any information about the boats he travelled on!! That is what I really wanted to find out.!! Typical!!!
When you say he is a cook on the 1848 voyages you are referring to the CK at the top of the page i presume. And the S (Sailor) at the top of the other journeys. Thanks for that.
Thanks for looking at the record for me. At least some help has come from showing it.
I have now tried to get earlier records BT112 - Register of Seamen series ll 1835-1844. It says you need to search BT 119 to get a reference number in order to access BT112. I requested Stephen Richardson in the BT 119 and he wasn't found!!!
Unsure where to look next in order to find any of the elusive ships he travelled on!!!
Thanks
Chris
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I thought stephen might be on the I.G.I There are there are a few in Cumberland but not in Keswick.
Celia
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Thanks for looking Celia,
I have him on the IGI: 27 AUG 1797 Crosthwaite, Cumberland, England
Keswick is in Crosthwaite I think. The DOB matches his record perfectly!!!
Cheers
Chris
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Hi Chris
Will have to agree to disagree re Quebec...it fits with "joined at Quebec" & "disembarked at St John's" (Newfoundland) on the next. These are foreign voyages based on the formats so it looks like they've been sailing to Canada and back to the UK
I will look up my Watts book again re the codes. My understanding is that you have to go through the batches at the National Archives until you find the right rotation number which will give you a crew list and of course include the ship's name.
Yes that is where I got the cook & seaman from.
Will get back wth more later. I strongly recommend you find a library with a copy of the Watts book -it is really essential for understanding what it all means and where to from there. ALso the National Archives (UK) site has very good guides on this topic and is more readily accessible as they are online.
Some BT series can be ordered in from the LDS libraries but some can only be found through the archives
Cheers
Pauleen
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Hi Chris
This is the National Archives guide which should be helpful in understanding these records.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=330
It seems to me that the top line 11-112 12-45 indicates a ship from Maryport which sailed in the home ports covering the six months to Dec 1845. To find the crew list you need to go to the BT 98 batch for Maryport in 1845 until you find #11. THis should give the crew list (LDS Church has BT 98 I believe) Similarly Maryport batch 94 in 1847
The lines below follow more the format of the foreign voyages, by my understanding. Perhaps he sailed from Quebec to England then did home voyages for a while, including 1847 before returning to St John's in 1847.
The 1845 entry looks to me like
67.77.2
87.14.9
Joined at Quebec (as debated)
In this instance the #77 refers to the ship's port of registration ie Penzance. Based on the bottom line it sailed from port 87 (St Ives), sailing about 14 Sept 1845.
Hence all boxes for Penzance need to be searched to find the one with ref #67.77.2
As I have never pursued one of these down to port level there may be someone far better qualified to offer advice.
Pauleen
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THANK YOU PAULEEN!!!!
Finally some one has given me a much better idea of what everything on the document means! If you look there has been 537 viewings of this message. MARINER HELP!! at last!!!
(No wonder no one has offered help how complecated is all this!!!!)
I have now read the NA link you gave me and agree with everything you have said in deciphering the numbers.
However I am not sure that the the port rotation number will work in the BT98 section.
Lets take the 1845 home journey for example:
BT 98/729 Port of Registry: Maryport Ships Names: A-Z 1845
This is arranged by: year, (1845) Port of registry (Maryport) but then by ships name (we dont know this yet)
I am not sure the Port rotation number will help in this section. I am sure we are nearly there though wrt to working out his ships.
Thanks again for all your work. I was way off the mark!!!
Cheers
Chris
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hi Chris
Happy to have been of help.
You're right about the year-port-ship boxes for BT 98. However I think you only learn the name of the ship when you match the rotation number that's written on the form for the ship when you then get the name. So it's a case of starting at the beginning and looking at each one. There is little likelihood that the low numbers will match ships whose names are in the early part of the alphabet. It's a good thing that there's only one film and you've got Maryport not LIverpool ;)
Can't recall where you are but unless you can take yourself off to London, ordering the film in through the nearest LDS (Mormon) church is probably your best bet. Ihave checed the catalogue for 1845 and the film number is as follows. It should cost you about $5 or L3 to order in each film
BT 98/729 Maryport A-Z 1845
Film 905430
To find the film numbers for the other entries you have you can follow this procedure:
www.familysearch.org
Library
Library catalogue
Keyword search -"Board of Trade"
Entries will come up -I have BT 98 coming up at entry 125 of 125 (2nd page of list)
YOu then click on this which takes you to the reference info. Click again on the top right (film details)
YOu will be horrified by the 5000 odd films from which you need to find yours.
I find it easiest to go to the bottom of the page , on the left, where you can enter a film number. Take a guess till you're in the right year range then you can work your way through the alphabet.
For example I found the Maryport one above at around 1050. Obviously the later the year, the higher film number you'll be looking for.
If the film has to come in from Salt Lake City (because no one else in your country has ordered it) then it can take a few months. However the good thing is that these are popular records so are usually held in the national repository locally. So unless someone else has it to look through then you shouldn't have to wait too long
All sounds convoluted but really isn't. I haven't used BT 98 but have found images from my ancestor's seamen's tickets on other batches.
Hope this isn't as clear as mud. If it is let me know
Pauleen
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Hi Chris
You've possibly already thought of this but when you do find out which ships he sailed on you can look at the local paper to find out more about the cargo it carried & the voyage. ON ships to Australia the local papers carried quite a lot of info.
The Times has all the shipping info from different ports (or at least the ones I've looked at) so that would probably be the easiest to access. The one for Quebec may, however, include more detail.
I looked back & saw you came from England so I guess you may be able to get to the NA which would be more fun than an LDS library. However in Australia it is pretty much my only option.
Happy hunting
Pauleen
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Hi Pauleen,
Yet again even more information offered!!
Thank you.
I live in Bolton in the north of England so getting to the NA isnt very easy so I will definately follow the LDS route.
2 questions though:
1. I take it it will come as Micro Fiche format. If this is the case I hope I can take this to the library to check it out.
2. Do I have to visit my local LDS church to order what I want or can i do it via Email/post?
Once I have the LDS film I will check with you how to find the Times information in your last post but that looks brilliant also!
It is all well interesting and like I said I must be getting nearer to finding the ships travelled on.
Also I have a new SAILOR from a marriage certificate which arrived on Tuesday so will be able to follow all your advise with this person as well!!
William Page(My Great Grandad X3 - Cited as a Sailor Abt. 1830/40. Probably from Kent.
Thanks again
Chris
PS your right about the Liverpool files. They are HUGE!!
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Hi Boltonmets,
If you look at FAQ on familysearch.org they have some answers to your questions, not sure
about ordering I think you may have to go to the center or best to phone first.
I have put down some centers that are on the site that are near Bolton, but please check as not
familiar with area.
Q:
Can I use Family History Library microfilms and microfiche outside the family history center?
A:
No. Microfilms and microfiche loaned to family history centers do not belong to the family history center or the patron who ordered them. Microfilms and microfiche cannot be removed from a center or transferred from one center to another.
Ashton England
Patterdale Road Crowhill Estate
Ashton-under-Lyne, Lancashire, England
Phone: 44 (0) 161-330 3453
Hours: M, T, F 10am-1pm; W 10am-3pm, 7pm-9pm; alt. Sat 10am-1pm
Manchester England
Altrincham Road
Wythenshawe
Manchester, Lancashire, England
Phone: 44 (0) 161-902 9279
Hours: M-W 9.30am-12.30pm, 12.45pm-3pm; T 7pm-9pm
Closed: from 7 August; reopening 1 September 2008.
Preston England
Temple Way
Hartwood Green
Chorley, Lancashire, England
Phone: 44 (0) 125-722 6145
Hours: M, Sat 10am-4pm; T, Th 10am-6pm; W, F 10am-9pm
Closed: from 28 July; reopens 11 August 2008
Rawtenstall England
Haslingden New Road
Rawtenstall, Lancashire, England
Phone: 44 (0) 128-241 2748
Hours: T 9.30am-12pm; F 10am-2pm
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hi Chris
Sirius has answered most of your questions -yes you will probably need to go to the library (based within the local LDS church) to order the film and also to look at the films when they arrived. Probably best to ring the local place first from list provided by Sirius & check opening hours & processes. However in Oz, some family history societies have lending rights so you can order in through them and they order from LDS....another question to be asked locally.
Some people feel a little uncomfortable to be in a church with which they are not affiliated but I can honestly say I've never felt that here -they believe very much in the importance of tracing family so happy to have you doing so.
I've done a lot of my research on UK families via LDS microfilm & it's been invaluable.
Some records (not these ones) do come on microfiche and when they do, they remain with the local LDS library. The majority, however, are on film which go back to wherever the "national" head office is located.
Also ask them whether you can take digital photos of the image you want (different places, different policies). So many archives are permitting that these days & it's invaluable. If you can't photo or print, make sure you transcribe every tiny bit of information as it's importance may only be revealed in time ;)
Re The Times: you should find your local (council?) library or other large municipal library will have a online subcription to the Times archives (ie their historical papers). You can then search by a specific name or date but I don't always find it 100% reliable. Of course if looking for a ship, you should know the date from your shipping list off the microfilm
Good to know all these new skills will be handy with the new branch of sailors
Cheers
Pauleen
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Once again thanks for your help Pauleen and thank you sirius for your contribution.
The one at chorley looks promising and I will contact/get there as soon as I have a free moment!
Cheers
Chris
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Boltonmets
Just checking you might have missed it Chorley is closed from the 28th July to the 11th Aug
Sirius
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AT LAST!!!!
Hi all I have finally visited the NA!!!!!
That place is brilliant!
So, Pauleen, I followed the root you gave me of looking at BT729 for Stephen Richardson on a ship registered at Maryport in 1845. The file came and it was a box with probably 200-300 original shipping documents in it!! I couldnt see any other way than to filter through them than to check each document which had all the men who sailed on that particular ship at that time. I looked at over 3/4s of them when I finally found Stephen Richardson age 48 from Keswick whos quality was a seaman. The ships name was the ST GEORGES and the master JAMES POOL it looks like. It travelled from Maryport to Dublin and back!It stated Stephens previous ship was the INDUSTRY and that he was registered at Maryport with ticket number 60,849 which corresponds with my previous documents.
So this gave me 2 names of boats he travelled on.
I did manage to photograph and scan this document but it is to big to put on here!
I then decided to look for his name in BT119. This is a list of all mariners betwwen 1835 and 1844 I think. I found 3 Stephens with different ticket numbers. I then used those 3 ticket numbers to access BT112. One of them was Stephen Richardson aged 38 from Keswick. The correct ticket number was 3821. It shows 7 Journeys and actuall states the ships he sailed on by name. ENTERPRIZE, HERMES, MARIA, and CONFIDENCE. (see image below)
I checked out www.mightyseas.co.uk which has them all listed but only information on the CONFIDENCE can be found but no picture!!
So this is my question to anyone! I want a picture and information of any of the above ships so what would be the best site to go to in order to find this please.
Recap: 1835-1844 the ships Enterprize, Hermes, Maria and Confience
1845 the ships St Georges and Industry
Thank you
Chris
PS Pauleen I know it was monthes ago when you posted your help but once again thanks!