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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cambridgeshire => Topic started by: tickle on Sunday 22 June 08 21:25 BST (UK)

Title: ELSWORTH families in America
Post by: tickle on Sunday 22 June 08 21:25 BST (UK)
Can anyone give me a primary source (ie Marriage Register) for the marriage of John Ellsworth to Lucia Bower 20 Dec 1613 in Cambridgeshire, England, or his birth on 3 Feb 1578 also in Cambridgeshire. (Note: Ancestral File is not a primary source, it is a fairy tale!)
I would like to give a prize to the first person who can give me the information, but I don't think it will be forthcoming. Or perhaps you know better?
Thanks
Tickle
Title: Re: ELSWORTH families in America
Post by: bedfordshire boy on Monday 23 June 08 08:42 BST (UK)
What amazes me is that scores of Americans copy each others trees perpetuating the place name Eelstown, or Eletown, Cambs. There is no such place, either in Cambs or anywhere else in England. So where did all the Ellsworth births and deaths come from, at a time when only baptisms and burials were recorded in parish registers? Has someone with a vivid imagination linked the surname Ellsworth with the place name Elsworth in Cambs, and turned it into Eelstown? Odd that precise dates should be linked with a non-existent parish!

Is there any real evidence as to the birthplace and parentage of Josiah Ellsworth who died in Hartford Conn? If Eelstown is fictitious, could John and Lucia be  equally fictitious?

Apart from the fantasy entries on the IGI I can find no trace of a surname Ellsworth in Cambs

David
Title: Re: ELSWORTH families in America
Post by: tickle on Monday 23 June 08 09:17 BST (UK)
Hello David
Thanks for replying. It's not just me then! You've obviously been playing with this one for some time as well. I actually contacted the son of the person who posted some of the the original information some years ago, and he had absolutely no idea where this came from. I have checked Pembrokeshire records (sparse they are,) for Lucia Bower's death/will and drawn a complete blank.  I have checked both Holy Trinity, and St Mary, Ely, and Elsworth parish registers, another blank, and if you go into the various Ancestral Files on LDS the dates vary wildly. They also put Bristol in Cambridgeshire!!!! There doesn't appear to be a primary source for the baptism of Josiah Ellsworth, or Theophilus/Stoffell Elsworth in Bristol. I even investigated Timberscombe in Somerset!
There has to be an original 'source' for this rubbish somewhere. Meanwhile there are a lot of people out there perpetuating the myth. It's a great pity we can't zap the Ancestral file, but it appears that once sealed, it's there for ever, which I find grossly irresponsible on the part of the LDS. It's a pity that they don't operate a central forum so that these incorrect or dubious entries can be challenged. Rant over!
Thanks for getting in touch, If you do ever find the answer. please let me know and I shall do likewise for you.
Take care
Tickle
Title: Re: ELSWORTH families in America
Post by: bedfordshire boy on Monday 23 June 08 11:11 BST (UK)
Hi Tickle

No, I looked at it for half an hour after I read your post. I know how difficult it can be to prove where a party to a marriage was from, even if he lived only two villages away, and pre 1754 it's even more difficult. I've seen enough US immigrants to know that it can be nigh on impossible to pin them down in England, or Wales, or wherever. And when Ancestral File or member submissions on the IGI have exact dates but no parish (or the parish is nonsense as in this case) then I start smelling rats.

I totally agree with your view of Ancestral Files, which is one of of my hobby horses too!  The problem is that when enough gullible people just copy what they see there, and then publish their own tree online, eventually a critical mass builds up and anyone starting out looks at it and thinks "well if everyone has that it must be right"

Good luck

David
Title: Re: ELSWORTH families in America
Post by: tickle on Monday 23 June 08 14:50 BST (UK)
Hello David
I agree with you about the whiff of rodent. I find it truly amazing that people accept all this twaddle at face value without bothering to check it. I even check primary sources, and if I have 2 primary sources which corroborate each other my cup runneth over! I get thoroughly ungruntled as well by these people who link them selves into a pedigree which traces their ancestry back to Charlemagne and Gog and Magog. Haven't these people ever heard of milkmen, or a roll in the hay on a summer night? (I seem to remember that was a bit scratchy, but never mind.)

Our ancestors' paths may have crossed at some point. My 5x great grandfather John Woodham farmed Gastlings at Southill untill 1771 and the family were at Stanfordbury until the late 1700s.

Take care

Tickle
Title: Re: ELSWORTH families in America
Post by: elsworj on Monday 17 November 08 22:41 GMT (UK)
My understanding is that of John & Lucia's offspring only Josiah made his way to the US and his name first appears in the records of Windsor, CT, USA on 16 Nov 1654 when he married Elizabeth Holcombe whose father was born in Devon. The source of this information makes no claim as to Josiah's birthplace nor date of marriage of his parents. I have seen, but cannot remember where at present, some information that John Ellsworth may have come from Derbyshire and not Cambridgeshire! In 1655 Josiah bought a property known as 'Elmwood' in Windsor, CT, which was deeded in 1903 [by the heirs of Chief Justice Oliver Ellsworth] to the Connecticut Daughters of the American Revolution. It is now a museum.

I have also been told that the name was originally "de Elsworth", being of Norman origin, the "de" was dropped leaving "Elsworth", after which the Cambridgeshire village took its name. The first "Elsworth" to make landfall in the US was likely to have been John [he above] and it was there due to poor spelling/illiteracy etc, etc, that the name took on its second L.

I am still attempting to connect those "Ellsworth's" to myself, being spelt Elsworth.

Jeremy.
Title: Re: ELSWORTH families in America
Post by: tickle on Monday 17 November 08 23:58 GMT (UK)
Hello Jeremy

Sorry to be pedantic but it is this 'evidence' for the existence of John and Lucia which is missing! So who their alleged offspring are becomes irrelevant. The CT Ellsworths always used the LL whereas the New York Elsworths used the single L until the early 19th century when for unknown reasons the second L crept in. It may be that your search for ancestors should therefore be in NY not CT!

As for the naming of Elsworth in Cambridgeshire you seem to have found the cart infron of the horse! If a man is named 'de Elsworth' it is because he is 'from' or 'of' Elsworth, in other words the place was there long before he was, and he was not there at the time. If he was in Elsworth, he would not be called 'of' Elsworth. This is quite likely as the Manor existed as far back as the late 10th century ie 100 years before the Norman conquest.

I would love to be able to find the source for all these myths about John and Lucia, and I could quite cheerfully strangle the person who put them, unsourced, into the public domain where they have caused nothing but confusion ever since. So if you do come across a proper, verifiable source for all this, please do let me know.

Meanwhile, if you do connect to the NY family you can rest assured that the family has been properly sourced back to 1625!

Regards

Tickle
Title: Re: ELSWORTH families in America
Post by: bedfordshire boy on Tuesday 18 November 08 11:19 GMT (UK)
Hi Jeremy

Welcome to Rootschat

Does the 1654 marriage to Elizabeth Holcombe actually name Josiah's parents as John and Lucia? If not where do their names come from - guesswork?

See the authoritative Victoria County History for details of Elsworth at http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=15456

David
Title: Re: ELSWORTH families in America
Post by: tickle on Tuesday 18 November 08 14:41 GMT (UK)
Hello David and Jeremy

It would surely be highly unlikely for a 1654 marriage to name anyone but the bride and groom, (and sometimes even the bride's family name gets left off which accounts for one of my brick walls!)

It would be interesting however to have a transcript of the complete marriage entry for the proces of elimination.

Take care

Tickle
Title: Re: ELSWORTH families in America
Post by: whalespew on Thursday 04 November 10 08:04 GMT (UK)
Where was Josiah born?
Where did Josiah come from?
When did Josiah arrive in the New World?
Who were Josiah Elsworth’s parents?

It looks like you guys have done some research into these questions. So far, I have not been able to find any good answers myself. I have posted the results of my research to the following website. Let me know if you have any helpful / insightful information. Thanks.

http://www.mybrickwalls.org/html/josiah_elsworth.html
Title: Re: ELSWORTH families in America
Post by: tickle on Thursday 04 November 10 11:38 GMT (UK)
Hi

The only thing I can suggest is a rigorous search of passenger lists. He must have arrived by sea so a passenger list and port of origin might give you clues. You might also have a look at ships records in Bristol, England, or Plymouth as likely ports of embarkation. I seem to remember that someone somewhere mentioned the west of England as a possible origin of your Elsworths. Mine (New York) originated in Bristol and went to Amsterdam. We have primary sources for all of that. However, I have not been able to do much in Bristol as yet and as it's a long time since I played with this mob, I'm not sure how much more of Bristol records has come online over the last few years. Good luck in your research, and if you would like to tackle it together with someone in the UK, buzz me back on here and I'll give you a direct address through your website.

Tickle
Title: Re: ELSWORTH families in America
Post by: bedfordshire boy on Thursday 04 November 10 12:36 GMT (UK)
Hi Whalespew

Welcome to Rootschat!]

I must stress that I have nothing to do with the Elsworth family, so am coming to this completely cold, with no preconceived ideas!

I would concentrate on Timberscombe, mainly because there was a well-to-do established Elsworth/y family there, whereas there are none at that time in Elsworth, Cambs, and Yorkshire is a big county. Whilst the parish register only starts in 1656 the Bishops Transcripts seem to go back earlier. I would check these BTs at your nearest LDS Family History Centre for a possible baptism of Josiah and for earlier marriages - Baptisms, marriages, burials, 1598-1678. FHL BRITISH Film 95273 

Whilst I mock member submissions on the IGI and Ancestral File entries, I always find it difficult to believe that someone has actually simply dreamed up a date, eg 7 Aug 1629 for Josiah. There MUST be something to back this up, notwithstanding the same date is applied to Timberscombe, Cambs and Yorks!

Your web page The Timberscombe Theory – perhaps I could add my two penn’orth.

I think Johane is Joanna/Joan, not John. See the first scan you show – John Farthing is the entry prior to Johane Elsworthy. I think the rest is English, not latin. The names look to be followed by “in town” and “in bond”. The two right hand columns are Roman numerals -  xx ie 20 L ie pounds, and iiij ie 4 L ie pounds. But I’d need to look at the whole document as I’m not totally convinced about the “L” and need to compare it with “s” and “d”

David
Title: Re: ELSWORTH families in America
Post by: whalespew on Monday 08 November 10 06:35 GMT (UK)
Tickle

I have looked through passenger lists without success, they seem to be fairly scarce. I have not looked through port of origin records, that would be a good avenue to pursue. Thanks.

David

You have a good point there regarding Johane = Joan, which is also how Banks interpreted it. I have changed the page to reflect your insight. The rest of those scans make a whole lot more sense now. I was thinking the in town/bond was Latin, and the roman numerals are a whole lot clearer as well now that you have pointed them out. Thanks for the insight and the pointer on the microfilm
Title: Re: ELSWORTH families in America
Post by: johnxyz on Wednesday 01 December 10 09:55 GMT (UK)
You might like to look at http://personal.linkline.com/xymox/fraud/fraud.htm, though Elsworth does not appear to be one of the known frauds.

For my line, there is a marriage at Kenilworth in 1628, but the extant registers only run from 1630.

John
Title: Re: ELSWORTH families in America
Post by: tickle on Wednesday 01 December 10 10:26 GMT (UK)
Anjou probably didn't need to mess about with the Elsworths as German Elsworth had already made a fine hash of them anyway!
Title: Re: ELSWORTH families in America
Post by: johnxyz on Wednesday 01 December 10 16:26 GMT (UK)
Looking at whalespew's site, the implication is that German Ellsworth was active in the early 1900s. That could well be contemporaneous with Anjou (his dates are 1863 - 1942). I have a print of one of Anjou's genealogies, and the Ellsworth typescript has a style that is reminiscent of Anjou. The most striking, though it may only be coincidental, is the use of Roman numbers for the main names and arabic for the children. 

Anjou is known to have invented data and places. If I were a gambling man, I'd put money on there being an Anjou typescript behind all this, later retyped by German.

John
Title: Re: ELSWORTH families in America
Post by: tickle on Thursday 02 December 10 08:16 GMT (UK)
Hi John

Sounds as though that might be a distinct possibility, but some of German's conclusions, especialyy the way he conveniently puts the three 'brothers' together initially,  are even too far fetched for a purportedly 'serious' genealogist to have come up with. I haven't looked at German's work for some time, but I seem to remember being flabbergasted that anyone could take him seriously, although I was in touch with an Ellsworth family member a year of two ago who thought he was gospel! Amazing. It would be interesting to know whether German's 'work' was based on Anjou or vice versa, so if you can nail it we could throw German to the wolves with every justification.

Take care, and thanks for your interest.

Tickle
Title: Re: ELSWORTH families in America
Post by: johnxyz on Thursday 02 December 10 11:34 GMT (UK)
I have a print, taken from the LDS microfilm, of "History of the Copley family of England, with ancestry of Thomas Copley of Shelbrook (properly Skelbrook )  and Northampton, Mass". It starts with what is regarded as a classic Anjou pre-amble: the derivation of the name, some early recorded uses of the name, and the family coat of arms.

http://www.aylesworth.net/Confidence_family_DWT_CSS/ellsworth_family_notes.htm has in paragraphs 3-6 a remarkably similar sequence. It's not definitive, but to me it's another indicator that Anjou might be linked to all this.

To be fair to the LDS, their author catalogue does now indicate that Anjou's workis suspect.

Title: Re: ELSWORTH families in America
Post by: whalespew on Saturday 04 December 10 09:54 GMT (UK)
I am not an Anjou expert, but my attempts to trace the Ellsworth tale indicate German Elsworth's research was published in 1956 in two forms - Ellsworth Families of Connecticut, Massachusetts, and New York (as noted here http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/FH2&CISOPTR=31502&REC=3), and Our Ellsworth Ancestors. Both volumes were edited by John Orvall Ellsworth. In the preface of Ellsworth Families of Connecticut, Massachusetts, and New York, John states all dates and names were researched by German and his wife Mary prior to 1917. In his own preface to Our Ellsworth Ancestors German states he started his research in 1908 and continued it for the next 50 years. I am inclined to believe German's primary account regarding the dates of his research, despite the obvious 50 year hyperbole, extending his research 2 years into the future from the date of publication of his book.

In Our Ellsworth Ancestors German states the following:
Reference is made by some writers that Josiah was born 7 August, 1629 in Cambridgshire, England, the son of Sir John Ellsworth and Lucia Bower. (Not confirmed). Sir John may have been the son of Lord John or the son of David. In any case Josiah was probably a descendant of Sir Simon de Ellsworth who was born about 1235 in England.... Sir John, probably the son of Lord John, is reported to have come to America in 1634, later returning to England where he died in 1649. Josiah came to America in about 1646, at the age of seventeen.

German was not as dogmatic about Cambridgeshire as a lot of sloppy researchers who followed made him out to be. Without checking and verifying footnotes people have taken what German said may have been, and not confirmed at that, and turned it into dogmatic history.

Now, that being said, his research is obviously not without its problems, for instance the travels of Josiah and John to America as detailed by German do not seem to be directly documented any where else. There is however a reference by Hinman here http://books.google.com/books?id=dt7CGDD0PsgC&lr&pg=PA24#v=onepage&q&f=false to John Elsworth arriving in in America in 1646. This problem is discussed further on my website.

Like I said earlier, I am not an Anjou expert, but to the classic markers, or pre-amble, as referenced by Johnxyz, "the derivation of the name, some early recorded uses of the name, and the family coat of arms" I would like to add the inevitable tie to nobility. The earlier referenced site by johnxyz, url]http://personal.linkline.com/xymox/fraud/fraud.htm[/url] quotes Anderson in stating, "A typical Anjou pedigree displays four recognizable features:

1. A dazzling range of connections between dozens of immigrants to New England; for example, connections far beyond what may be seen in pedigrees produced by anyone else.
2. Many wild geographical leaps, outside the normal range of migration patterns.
3. An overwhelming number of citations to documents that actually exist, and actually include what Anjou says they include and
4. Here and there an invented document, without citation, which appears to support the many connections noted under item 1 above.


The classic derivation of the Ellsworth name is listed by Stiles in 1892 in his book the History and Genealogies of Ancient Windsor Connecticut here http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/FH23&CISOPTR=13982&REC=2 on pages 208-210. Stiles' version includes the derivation of name, early uses, and tie to nobility. No coat of arms is included, as Stiles' work is not that kind of a book.

Sylvester Aylsworth gives his version of the family derivation, early usage of the name, tie to nobility, wild geographic leaps, and family coat of arms and crest in 1840 in his book A Registor of the Aylsworth Family here http://www.archive.org/stream/arthuraylsworthh00ayls#page/14/mode/2up pages 15-29.
Title: Re: ELSWORTH families in America
Post by: whalespew on Saturday 04 December 10 09:55 GMT (UK)
So where does that leave us? Well, Sylvester Aylsworth, who is pre-Anjou (1863-1942), seems to be the earliest known source of the wildly improbable, and surely worthy of Anjou, fiction of the "three brothers" immigrating to New York and Connecticut from Holland and Wales. While this sounds like something one would expect from an Anjou line, in this instance Anjou appears to be innocent. By subscribing to the three brothers theory, German seems to be referencing Aylsworth, not Anjou.

Stiles, on the other hand, was a contemporary of Anjou. Stiles’ work, while not without mistakes, does seem to be well respected among the New England and DAR crowd. Stiles also includes sources for his own foray into “historical fiction,” writing about the Ellsworth provenance, which could plausibly preclude Anjou. On the other hand Stiles states in his footnotes he is indebted to the assistance of six other individuals in his account of the Ellsworth line, any of which potentially could have been tainted by Anjou.

German (1871-1961) was also a contemporary of Anjou, however I would say his research in this matter seems to draw heavily on Stiles and Aylesworth. In German’s favor are the following:
First. While the immigration pattern for the Windsor area would seem to support the Timberscombe, rather than the Cambridgshire theory, this can be attributed to Stiles, who has a plausible, if unproven, provenance for this theory
Second. Yes the family coat of arms is present, but this seems to be a ubiquitous misunderstanding persisting to our day, without Anjou’s continued help, so I am not sure how damming this is.
Third. German comes nowhere citing a even modicum of sources, let alone an overwhelming number.
Fourth, German is at least skeptical of some of the claims he makes in his research.

There are at least two key points though which need to be explained before ruling out any Anjou contamination:
First. Who is Lucia Bower? German’s work seems to be the oldest reference to this person. Lucia is a possible (probable in my opinion) invention. All other details can be sourced to earlier documents, at least tenuously, but there seems to be no basis for Lucia.

Second. In Appendix I of Our Ellsworth Ancestors, entitled “The Ellsworths and their Name”, separate from the main body of research, German details the family origin, early usage of the name, ties to nobility, improbable connections between several ancestors (the three brothers theory). The interesting part about this appendix is a footnote which states the appendix was copied from a Genealogical and Historical Sketch provided by the Media Research Bureau, 110 F, St. Washington, D.C. German adds the illuminating comment that this address was reported as “Out of Business” by the Postal Service in August 1955.

German never included any footnotes or source citations elsewhere. He must have smelled something fishy, but could not resist including the authoritative findings of the “Sketch.” To stir the pot even more, this “Sketch” lists a 12 source bibliography. Eleven of the twelve source are legitimate and I have verified. While the sources do have tidbits of filler info referenced in the “Sketch,” they are a far cry from supporting the juicy details regarding Ellsworth provenance. The twelfth source most likely is legitimate too, but I have not verified it. If it is legitimate however, the title of the book indicates at most it can be more filler.

Who / what was the Media Research Bureau? Anjou’s outfit was called AMERICAN CONSUMERS SOCIETY, located at No. 2 West 45th Street, New York. The company referenced by German could be another front, or maybe a competitor in misinformation? Here is a link showing an advertisement for the Media Research Bureau http://books.google.com/books?id=MtsDAAAAMBAJ&pg=RA1-PA799&lpg=RA1-PA799&dq=media+research+bureau+1110+f+st+washington&source=bl&ots=2ymB5rxIHq&sig=EPF5wCzxvy98U1DR9F8LWXeJqzE&hl=en&ei=cQb6TJiPINP4nwf27oXGCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=media%20research%20bureau%201110%20f%20st%20washington&f=false

This sketch as copied by German does not list Lucia, so either this “Sketch” is only partially reproduced, which does not seem to be the case, or there is some other unidentified document from somewhere else that German is drawing on when he says Reference is made by some writers that Josiah was born 7 August, 1629 in Cambridgshire, England, the son of Sir John Ellsworth and Lucia Bower. (Not confirmed). Is this source Anjou, or someone else?  This sounds awfully specific for such an early date, and no one seems to be able to produce any proof. As stated earlier in this thread, there seems to be a whiff of rodent here.
Title: Re: ELSWORTH families in America
Post by: johnxyz on Tuesday 07 December 10 11:57 GMT (UK)
Reading all this again I agree that the more detailed analysis of sources points in directions other than Anjou.

I first came across him when checking the "well known" line on my family, that it can trace its ancestry to "Adam de Copley slain at York in 1070". For this Anjou proved  useful, identifying additional source material. Tracking through those and other sources, I've concluded that it is an Elizabethan invention - the earliest reference I can find is 1630.

It does however suggest a historical parallel between Elizabethan England, and more recent American history - the desire to have a pedigree linked back to long-standing English nobility.

And whilst it is interesting to note the parallel, it still leaves your putative rodent. I don't think the specificity of the 1629 date is of itself a problem. Where parish registers from that era exist, the dates and information are specific. That the date is subsequently ascribed to several different places is possibly cause for concern, but I have seen that happen often, even when the original primary source is known and properly recorded. The real cause for concern is that in this case no-one seems be able to locate the primary source.   

Until that is found, or its false origin established, the best that can be done is to record what is known and not known - and I admire the way this thread has presented that.

Title: Re: ELSWORTH families in America
Post by: tickle on Sunday 07 August 16 11:48 BST (UK)
Hi all

I just read all this again with interest. It seems that no progress has been forthcoming since our initial debate. However, the Cambridgeshire Family History Society has a 'Supersearch' facility on its website, so I entered Josiah Elsworth/Ellsworth with and without dates and came up with: The Search has found no records which match your search criteria. Surprise, surprise!

Best wishes

Tickle
Title: Re: ELSWORTH families in America
Post by: tickle on Monday 27 November 17 09:04 GMT (UK)
Hi again all

Tom McCarthy has put a lot of the detail of German Ellsworth's research on http://www.aylesworth.net/Confidence_family_DWT_CSS/ellsworth_family_notes.htm

It is easy from that to completely disconnect the NY family from the discussion. Tom quotes German thus:

"At this time, 1664, one of three brothers fled to Holland. He adopted the Dutch pronunciation ELSWORT. After a few years living there, he with his family emigrated to America, and settled in the city of New York where many of the descendants still remain. His name is believed to be Theophilus. 

"He and his descendants professed their attachment to the Dutch Reformed Church. They spell their name ELSWORTH. "

We have primary source material which gives Theophilus's birth as Bristol 1625, and his emigration from Holland to New Amsterdam in 1652, so for my money that's case closed. He can not possibly be a brother to any of the other folk unless his mother was child bearing for 20+ years and was a very old lady!

Best wishes

Tickle