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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: benny9 on Wednesday 30 July 08 20:59 BST (UK)
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My ggg'dad Was a George Crowther From Leeds and in 1885 I have him in Stainburn sq working as Publican he later became a showman /traveler but I would like to know a bit about the area in Leeds. The area is St Peters sq, Lemon st, High st. This area is now mainly under Quarry hill flats but I would like to see if I can build up a picture of the area in his day. Cheers BEN
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Hi, george crowther at the old house at home in stainburn sq is my gg grandad being the father of my g grandad william. I have george on 1891 census in east st leeds as an hotel keeper with his daughter caroline.you prob know this. I would be interested in which of georges offspring you are from. regards Terry crowther
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Hi Terry Nice to hear from you! My g,grandma was Sarah Ann Crowther her father was Robert bn 1862 to George Crowther and Sarah Ann Turner. It would seem I am also related to Sarah Elizabeth Crowther, Roberts big sis, as it would appear that my g,grandma Sarah Ann and my g,granddad Herbert were cousins! I have not found George in 1891 I must have missed him. He must be 64-65 by then. I am researching my family Johnsons and Crowthers both Families traveled with the fairs at one time or another. I know George did and his son Benjamin and Sarah Elizabeth and Robert. It would be nice find out more would like to hear if you have found out any more on the Crowthers. I will wait to here from you BEN
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Hi! Ben, am listing below my crowther info as I see it. its mostly from census info and although george crowther seems to be unsure of his age sometimes the family names and ages seem to fit.
1861 10 mabgate fold leeds
george crowther 34 coal dealer ( gives birth place as halifax)
sarah ann 31
benjamin 10
hannah 6
sarah e 8
caroline 4
william 1 ( my g grandfather)
henry hodgson ( servant)
1871 6 mabgate fold leeds
george 44 ( traveller)
sarah ann 41
caroline 14
benjamin 20
hannah 16
harriet 2
robert 10
sarah 18
william 12
1881 6 stainburn st or sq? ( old house at home)
george 51 publican
sarah ann 51
william 20 ( brewer)
robert 17
carry ( caroline) 23
benjamin potts ( nephew)
1891 57 east st leeds
george 61 hotel keeper ( widower)
caroline 34
1891 bridge st kirkstall leeds
william crowther 30 general dealer ( my grt grand father)
margaret28
john 6
william 4 ( my grand father)
euphemia 4 mnths
annie gallagher 12 ( neice) ( died 1903 and buried in same grave as george and sarah ann)
george and sarah ann buried in grave no 5894 at becketts st leeds
inscription reads, in loving memory sarah ann wife of george crowther who died june 25th 1884 age 53 years also george crowther who died may 30th 1894 age 61 years.
I hope that this info is of interest to you.
ps. I see that you name sarah ann as turner, this I did not know so thank you.
regard Terry
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Cheers for the info on george and Sarahs, grave thats good to know. Is it still there or is it just a record of the grave stone? I checked today and Caroline Crowther was still running the boarding hse in 1901 she was 44 and still single. I wonder how long she ran it for and if the property went to another family member? I know Sarah Ann was turner because a relative of mine or I should say ours gave me a copy of Roberts birth cert. 1862 Mabgate fold.
I have also found George 24 and Sarah 20 and Benjamin in New church place just the next street to mabgate fold in 1851 he is listed as dyer and dyers wife there were plenty of wool and flax mills around. I have tried 1841 but if he is with his family I don't know thier names so I cannot be sure I might have to order Georges marriage cert and see if that spread any more light on it.
I thank you again for the info and I'll hear from you again or visa versa cheers BEN
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hello ben,
re inscription for george and sarah, I got it from a disk " leeds & district burials" that I have which lists various burial grounds & some inscriptions. I am assuming that the grave must still be there for them to have obtained this info.I dont know if you have ever visited becketts st but 7 yrs ago when I visited the old part was so badly overgrown that we gave up looking.
thanks for confirming sarah ann,s maiden name. I had been going off on the wrong track on this.
very interesting to see that you have located george & sarah on 1851 census, I will now add that to my tree.
I did have caroline on the 1901 census and am also interested in who got the property when she died in 1913 aged 55 yrs, although east st was a pretty poor area and has always seemed to be. I actually went to school 5 mins walk from east st and weaver sq which was just around the corner and is where my my grandad and grt grandad ( both william) were living in 1901.
I dont know if it is of interest to you but I have a copy of my grt grandads marriage cert dated 13th dec 1887 showing him residing in stainburn sq and listed as a brewer. george ( his dad) is also listed as a brewer.
hope that you do manage to get further info on george,
regards Terry
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Hi Terry, My great grandad and great grandma were married 1908 she was Sarah Ann daughter of robert and her address is given as 16 Weaver sq so none of the family moved very far. His was marsh lne. It is interesting that my relation on my gandmas side that has researched the Sykes travellers and showman has also found one of her side residing at mabgate fold. it was maybe a regular wintering spot for travellers where they could park and repaint the wagons and take up other work over winter. I am interested in Benjamin Crowther the eldest as he has my name. I have also just named my son Ben, my dad and granddad are Bens, and I think Ben Crowther is where the name came from it is a bit long to explane but in 1881 he is travelling with the fairs with a wife called zuba or Azubah after that i cannot find him and I think Zuba died but I cannot find where or when. You could'nt shed some light on this could you?
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Hi Ben,
I think you may well be correct re mabgate fold area being a possible wintering spot for the wagons and stuff, it sounds good to me.
re zuba, I came across this name when I was deeply into my research about two years ago and thought what a fantastic name to have in your tree. I could not connect her at that time.
anyway I have been looking on the free bdm website and found her. her name is shown as Azuba Crowther, died sep 1919 age 62 registered at Hunslet. I also found her entry on my burials disk as interned at harehills cemetery grave no 5454 born 1857 age 62yrs. I have found a number of deaths for benjamin crowthers ( I am sure you have to) but no way of knowing which is the one.
trusting that the azuba info proves useful. regards Terry
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Hi again, I found an marriage of Azubah Johnson and Benjamin Crowther on the same register for sept leeds 1871. They turn up in the 1881 census at linsley fold in leeds both 29 him a showman with a gg aunt of mine Mary Johnson 7. I could only find two Azubahs in linclonshire in the 1871 census. I have not been able to find azubah in the later censuses don't know what happened to Ben Crowther. I also have a Zuba Johnson Ben's niece probably named after his wife. My dad remembers her and visiting her in york. I think I'll order George and Sarah Anns Marrisge Cert and try and go back further. Speak to you soon Ben
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To find old pictures of Leeds try this site http://www.leodis.net/
You might be lucky
Sylviaann
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Hi, I lived most of my life in Leeds. My Uncle Thomas Hunter married Ellen Crowther at Leeds registry office in 1938. Ellen Crowther's brother Robert use to have a Shooting Gallery on the Fairgrounds, just wondered if he was related to you.
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Hi! I dont know of ellen or robert crowther being part of my family because my father died in 1943 and my mother remarried. my fathers name was william , and I know that he had a brother called frank but otherwise know very little of the rest of the family. my father lived at coldcotes drive in 1939( when he married my mother) which is on the gipton estate leeds.
I am sure that ben will be very very interested in the fairground connection of robert crowther.
regards TC
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Hi wood_gnome
Could well be related, my greatgreatgrandad was a Robert Crowther bn 1862 to George and Sarah Ann Crowther, mar Ann Eliza Stewart in 1885 in Leeds. This Robert is down on his daughters (another Sarah Ann my greatgran) marriage cert as showman. I don't know about his other children I have not gone that way yet. My dad who grew up on the fairs for a few years at the start of his life says that he remembers visiting a Bob Crowther but he can't remember if he was any relation. My Crowthers were all from central Leeds from Mabgate, Stainburn sq, High st, Weaver sq, East st. I have not found them anywhere else yet apart from on showgrounds but then not too far from Leeds. It would be good to hear if you have any other info on your Crowthers and see if there is a connection. Hope this info helps you cheers BEN
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My ggg'dad Was a George Crowther From Leeds and in 1885 I have him in Stainburn sq working as Publican he later became a showman /traveler but I would like to know a bit about the area in Leeds. The area is St Peters sq, Lemon st, High st. This area is now mainly under Quarry hill flats but I would like to see if I can build up a picture of the area in his day. Cheers BEN
Dear Ben,
George was born in 1827 and baptised on Feb.3rd at Birstall. His father Benjamin was born around 1790 and lived in Scholes near Cleckheaton. Ben took his family to Leeds in the 1840's. He and George were 'coal leaders', i.e. deliverers of coal.
Benjamin lib=ved at mabgate Fold, and george - when married - at New Church Place. Benjamin died in 1852, and is buried in an unmarked grave in beckett Street Cemetary. George then lived in Mabgate Fold, and became a traveller with a Fair - owning a 'swingboat'. He seems to have given this work to a son- Benjamin, who died in 1917, whilst he took over the pub called 'The Old House at Home'. He gave this up to run a lodging house, and died in 1894. (He is buried in Beckett Street as well, and has a gravestone which was still standing in 2006.)
His spinster daughter Caroline took over the lodging house until her death in 1913.
George - like all his family - was illiterate, but made a will, leaving £117 to his children. I can give you more info if you want.
Paul Crowther
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hello ben,
re inscription for george and sarah, I got it from a disk " leeds & district burials" that I have which lists various burial grounds & some inscriptions. I am assuming that the grave must still be there for them to have obtained this info.I dont know if you have ever visited becketts st but 7 yrs ago when I visited the old part was so badly overgrown that we gave up looking.
thanks for confirming sarah ann,s maiden name. I had been going off on the wrong track on this.
very interesting to see that you have located george & sarah on 1851 census, I will now add that to my tree.
I did have caroline on the 1901 census and am also interested in who got the property when she died in 1913 aged 55 yrs, although east st was a pretty poor area and has always seemed to be. I actually went to school 5 mins walk from east st and weaver sq which was just around the corner and is where my my grandad and grt grandad ( both william) were living in 1901.
I dont know if it is of interest to you but I have a copy of my grt grandads marriage cert dated 13th dec 1887 showing him residing in stainburn sq and listed as a brewer. george ( his dad) is also listed as a brewer.
hope that you do manage to get further info on george,
regards Terry
Dear Terry,
William was my great grandfather as well. He is buried in Beckett Street in George's grave. The grave was still there in 2006, though only George is marked on the headstone.William's wife Margaret Jane (nee mackenzie) is buried separately in a communal grave with her name on it amongst about 5 or 6 others. I have exact locations for all the Crowther graves in the cemetary and copies of birth, death, and marriage certificates for all those in the William line that connects to me.
Caroline ran the Lodging House on East Street until her death. The property was demolished around that time. If you stand at the side of the Palace pub and look towards East Street, it was around there.
I also know the deep ancestry of our Crowther forefathers via analysis of my Y-chromosome (i.e. transmission on the father's line). More information is available if you want.
Best wishes,
Paul Crowther
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Hi Paul, having decided yesterday to get back to my family history after a two months break, I invested in some credits for the 1911 census. Then this morning I find your messages. This is brilliant.
I would be delighted with any info whatsoever on the crowthers and I thank you for the info on Margaret jane who I could never find her death date or burial. I have just found Caroline on the 1911 census living with Elizabeth Johnson ( also a boarding house owner) and one of Bens johnsons.
The y-chromosome sounds intriguing and I loved to find out which of g,granddad lot you are from. great to hear from you, many regards Terry Crowther
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Dear Terry,
Some births and deaths info.
Benjamin Crowther - born around 1790, Scholes/Birstall area. Died age aged 62, 8 Mabgate Fold, 27.3.1852. I know approximately where his grave in Beckett St. is.
George Crowther - born 1827, baptised feb.3rd at Birstall. married Sarah Ann Denison, Feb. 9th 1850, Leeds parish Church. He was originally a cloth dyer, but worked as a coal leader, then maybe as a dyer again, before running a 'swingboat' at travelling fairs. After he became a publican in the late 1870's, he then took over a lodging house at 7 East Street. In his will of 13.6.1892 he bequeaths his money and personal property to his children. Caroline is given special mention - 'I give and bequeath absolutely to my daughter Caroline for her own separate and sole use all Fixtures and Furnishings on or about the premises now occupied by me at Seven East Street, Leeds'...He seems to have turned the lodging house over to her, since his death certificate has his profession as a 'pattern dyer'. He died on 30.5.1894. His wife pre-deceased him on 25.6. 1884 (at 'Stainburn Street'). George had a lot of children, three of whom died in infancy.
William Crowther - George's son, born 19.10.1859 at 8 Mabgate Fold. He worked in the pub with his father, and by 1901 was a 'Carter'. He married Hannah Enoch on 12.8. 1885, but she died on 1.3.1886. He re-married to Margaret Jane Mackenzie on 13.12. 1887. Maggie was born 9.5.1862 at 17, Young Street, Aberdeen. By 1881, she was working as a 'woolen weaver' at Mirfield, living with her sister Euphemia, and younger brother John. Wiiliam died of cancer of the lower jaw on 29.5.1908. (This is not a common cancer, and may be connected to the fact that in the 1871 census he is listed as a 'matchmaker'. Matchmakers often smoothed the matches orally and many contracted this cancer - known colloquially as 'phossie jaw'.) Maggie Mackenzie died of pneumonia on 4.12.1911. She was a woman of such ample girth that, apparently, the coffin had to be lowered from the window of her dwelling. Another family tale has it that her younger brother turned up athe funeral wearing a kilt and Scottish regalia, and was punched by one of Willie's sons, on the grounds that he'd never cared about her whilst she was alive... She was buried separately from Willie, as he was interred in George's grave along with George's wife Sarah, Hannah Enoch, Annie Gallagher, and Benjamin Johnson. The grave was, therefore, officially classified as 'full'.
Willie and Maggie had at least 8 children. These included Euphemia (born in 1890) - who looked after the young ones when both parents were dead. I remember meeting her at my Grandad Crowther's funeral in 1967. I also met another of their children - yet another Benjamin. He lived in Beeston and was still alive in the 1980's, though I had no further contact with him. The youngest child, my grandad - Henry - was born on 25.10.1902, and died 12.12.1967. My cousin Gary Murphy did ALL the research which I'm quoting from, and he was unable to find birth certificates for the other children - Benjamin (ibid), John, William, and George.( The other children were Robert - born in 1897, and Mary Ann, born in 1900)
As for dwelling places. Mabgate Fold was demolished in the late nineteenth-century when the Hope Iron Foundry was extended. The extension took the form of a grand neo-classical building which is still standing. If you go into the yard there, there are cobbles probably left over from Mabgate Fold, and there is an incongruous building in the corner which may be a remnant of the Fold. The building adjoins the grim and filthy Lady Beck which is mainly covered, but you can still see it beneath Hope Street Bridge. This area was called the 'Leylands' and was infamous for its insanitary conditions. Disease was rife. Linsley Fold is gone, but part of New Church Lane is recorded on the Leodis photo website, as are images of Wool Street, and Weavers Square. Stainburn Square/Street was demolished in the early 1930's. I know of no images of it.
When I was a boy, I remember that Grandad Crowther had photographs of Willie, and of Maggie on his wall. Alas, when he died, his wife seems to have thrown them away. I can't remember them with any accuracy now.
I'll have to do another reply concerning the genetic ancestry.
Best wishes,
Paul
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Dear Terry,
As for distant genetic ancestry, there is a fascinating tale to be told. The paternal line of descent transmits genetic markers - mutations that appear at a specific time in specific individuals, but which are then transmitted to all male descendants. These markers define what are called 'haplogroups'. Through these, one can determine the distant origins of one's ancestry. Almost all people in the British Isles are members of the haplogroup Rb1, (or, a minority) are of Scandinavian groups (whose designation I don't recall). What this shows is that most Brits are descended from people who took refuge in Iberia, or in the Balkans during the ice age. They emerged from Africa and came to Iberia,or from the Balkans to Scandinavia via the middle east.
Our Crowther line, however, is completely different. Via Benjamin, George and Willie, I have inherited the haplogroup marker N1c1. Members of this group left Africa and went into Iran, then northern China, and then into Siberia - where the exact N1c1 marker arose about 10.000 years ago.(Native Siberians have it most). It then spread with Uralic speakers (i.e.languages related to Finnish) across northern Russia into Finland and the Baltic states. About 60% of Finns, and between a third and a half of Lithuanians, Latvians, and Estonians have it. It's especially common amongst the Saami people (i.e, Laplanders). What this means is that somewhere along the line our Uralic ancestors became involved with Vikings or Normans (Normans being Viking in origin) and came over with them. My guess is that we spring either from Saami connected with Norsemen, or from Courlanders (from Lithuania) who connected with Danes or Swedes.
I know of one other Crowther (an American) who also is N1c1. His ancestors came from our areas - between Halifax, Leeds, and Bradford. There is a southern English Crowther I know of. His ancestors are from the only non-northen area of England where there is some concentration of Crowthers, namely Shropshire - but he's a Rb1 member. From all this I infer that the northern Crowthers are probably mainly of Uralic origin, whilst the southern ones aren't.
Any way that's all for now - I have to feed the reindeer.
Best wishes,
Paul
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Hi Paul, thank for the family information and chromosome profile which is fascinating. Your cousin must have spent quite some time researching and has certainly done a fine job. I am assuming that your grandfather was Henry ( harry on 1911 census) the youngest of william and magarets children.
You refer to Euphemia being the oldest of william and magarets children born 1890 but according to my info, William was born in 1887 the same year as willie and magarets marriage. Also according to the 1891 and 1901 censuses there was a John born in 1885 ( could he be Hannah enochs child I wonder). Just out of interest I did find Hannah Enoch age 8 on the 1871 census living at 17 stainburn sq. My grandad William married Mary Ann Ohara in 1909 and my father , again William was born in 1912. My father died in feb 1944 and is buried in the war graves cemetery at khayat beach Israel and my mother remarried after the war. As a result I know very little about my Crowther family other than my uncle Frank who I remember and his son my cousin Frank ( who used to be a landlord in the Leeds area) and recent information from Ben re the close Crowther/Johnson connections and the fairground interest. Ben and myself went to huddersfield library last year and we thing that we have the info to go back further than Benjamin 1790, but we are still working on this. Thanks again for the chromosome profile it really is interesting and I hope that your reindeers are well fed and settled for the night. many regards Terry
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Dear Terry,
Thanks for your posting. I should point out that all the dates and documents were researched by Gary Murphy in the mid 1990's. Unfortunately, I have lost contact with him. All the family anecdotes, interpretation of data, and descriptions of locales are my work (as is the stuff about the N1c1 chromosome - which is, ocf course - a genetic marker that you and any male offspring share as well).
Gary was always puzzled about not being able to find documentation about some of Willie and Maggie's children. I think that we both thought Euphemia was the oldest, but your points do refute that. Gary couldn't find entries for Willie and Maggie in the 1891 census and imagined that they might be travelling. Hannah died within a year of her marriage from 'acute psithis' whatever that is. If they had a child it must have been fast, or out of wedlock.
I live in Slovenia, and find it hard to get access - even online - to census data, but I'd be interested to know if there are details of Willie and Maggie's household for 1891.
Henry or 'Harry' Crowther was born in 1902 and worked as a baker in his younger years and then as a labourer in a sawmill after the second world war. He lived at 9, Brander Mount on the Gipton estate in Leeds from 1937. There were 4 children - 3 girls and my dad - also a Henry/ Harry (born 1927). Henry senior joined up in 1939. After an incident where he punched an officer or NCO who'd been bullying a young friend of his, he (and the young man) were put in a penal battalion. Ironically, the company they were removed from was subsequently annihilated in a crossfire.
And it ended badly as well. On the beaches at Dunkirk, the remnants of the penal battalion were bombed or shelled and the young guy's head was blown off, next to my Grandad. Thereafter he had a great hatred of authority.
For the rest of the war he served in the Pioneer Corps at Scapa Flow in the Shetlands. On demobilization he brought a little terrier dog called Tina back with him. I have a vague memory of the dog's presence - and asking where she'd gone after she died - but can't visualize her.
My dad joined up as a professional soldier in early 1945, but the war ended before he'd completed basic training. Therefter he served in Palestine for three years. On demob, he worked in a sawmill, but eventually became a semi-skilled worker as a springsmith. he was married in 1951, and thereafter lived in south Leeds (Hunslet, Middleton) and then Burley-in-Wharfedale.
I can't recall him talking about an Uncle Frank, but the name is familiar. (He died in January 2009, so I can't ask him, now.) It's odd that our families connect indirectly through Gipton estate and Palestine!
Best wishes,
Paul
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Further info.
George Crowther's father Benjamin was christened on the 6th February 1791 at Birstall.
He married Sarah Kitson (born in 1797 at Heckmondwike) on 17th September 1818.
Their daughter Mary Ann was christened on 21st August 1825 at Birstall. She married a William Potts, and lived at Holbeck in Leeds. Her date of death may be in 1875.
A William Crowther was married to Elizabeth Mann at Birstall on 28th May 1766, and so may have been Benjamin's grandad.
Obviously the Birstall Parish Church records must have the more exact details.
Best wishes,
Paul
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I've deleted the original entry here concerning the supposed ancestry of Benjamin Crowther, because I got it wrong. *This is the 'booboo' referred to in a later entry.
Paul
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Hi Paul,
We have seen some of the familysearch stuff and it points to Dewsbury, thats why me and Terry want to go and look at the parish records for Dewsbury. It is a bit confusing as there is another Benjamin and Sarah plus kids living in Batley at the same time as ours. It all points to our lot being from Dewsbury but as you say the LDS site is not allways accurate. It is a good starting point but it is compiled by amateurs who are researching their tree like us and fill in what ever else they find. At the end of the day this family history comes to a point were you have to travel to the place and spend hours looking at the actual records. There is quite a few graves of Crowthers in Dewsbury parish church have you tried the genuki web site? There is a good few entries for Crowthers in the trade directories of the time, all workers in the woolen industry, just about. Bye for now BEN
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Another corrected entry. I've deleted stuff about Benjamin's supposed ancestry because of points that are made clear in a subsequent posting. But one thing from my original posting remains correct. Our Benjamin Crowther (George's Dad) could indeed write - as is shown by the evidence collected by Gary Murphy which I cite in a subsequent posting.
This contains a sad story in itself. Like most people in Scholes, he seems to have worked in cloth, but the coming of industrialization impoverished him, and he had to move to Leeds for factory work. So whilst he must have been able to read and write, he was so impoverished by the coming of the machines, that he wasn't able to afford for his children to be educated. So none of his children were literate.
Paul
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Hello,
I thought I would write to see if anyone researching Crowther in Leeds area knew of my particular George Crowther
George Crowther (born Birstal) age 43 in 1861, agent for manufacturing chemist. lived in Holbeck, Leeds with wife Elizabeth and children Martha, Louisa and Mary (address looks like Mansfield House)
George Crowther age 50 ? in 1871, is a cloth fuller. He lived in Batley, Dewsbury with wife Elizabeth, daughters Mary( single), Martha (married) and Louisa (married). all the spouse and children are in the resdience
George Crowther is my 3G grandfather.
I am interested if you know of this line?
Many thanks
Jon
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my nana was Euphemia Crowther she married George Mark, nana died in 1972
what a great lady.
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Hi there teaup if I am correct your nans father was William and his father was George. I am in touch with Terry Crowther who has posted on this thread who also comes from William. That is second cousins I think!
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Hi Teacup, Euphemia was, as Benny says the sister of my grandad William. I have a copy of grandad Williams marriage cert to Mary Ann Ohara in july 1909 where Euphemia and her future husband George Mark were the witnesses. Euphemia and George married in sept 1909 which I am sure you know.
I also have got Euphemia and George on the 1911 census living on the bank at Grantham st.
Euphemia was the daughter of William Crowther 1859 and Margaret ( maggie) Jane Mackenzie and Williams father was George Crowther 1827 and sarah ann. We are hopeful of taking the tree back quite a bit further.
Nice to hear from you. Would love to hear more about Euphemia. regards Terry Crowther
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Hi
Thanks for you reply. Euphemia and george had 7 children (5 boys- 2 girlys)
George past away in 1955. Have a photo taken of them just before george
died. They had a house in the Wyebeckes in Leeds.
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Thanks Teacup for the picture of Euphemia. As we have a shortage of Crowther pictures this one is very welcome. Thanks again. Regards Terry Crowther
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Hi Ben,
Which Crowther are you related to from Leeds?
Im very interested in finding more info on your conection to Dewsbury Crowthers. are you interested in a Benjamin & Sarah crowther?
Atbash.
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Hi Paul,
Finally Found you, sorry to hear about uncle Harry.
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Hi Abash I am, as is Terry and Paul, who have posted on this thread Directly related to George Crowther. I think most of the early entries on this thread tell who he was and where he lived in Leeds. He was my GGGgrandad my GGgranperents were his son Robert and wife Ann Eliza and his daughter Sarah Elizabeth and her husband Edward Johnson. Georges' parents were Benjamin and Sarah. We do not know a lot about them realy they seem to be married in Heckmondwike in 1818 and have kids in various places around that area. Thier last child is born in Leeds 1830 they probably moved to Leeds for the work in the mills. We have only got the stuff on the LDS site and a few other family trees to go on really as to where they and their parents come from. Most things I have seen have Benjamins perents as Jonas and Mary from Dewsbury. There is a lot of Crowthers in that area. Terry and I went to the archives in Leeds to see if we could find anything in the parish records for Dewsbury but we drew a blank. This does not mean it was not there but it is annoying. It is interesting as well that if you search the 1841 census you will come up with our Ben and Sarah in Holbeck and another Ben and Sarah in Batley I think. We are awaiting a break through that will take us back further and or confirm our findings. What is your link to the family? I am on my Hols soon so I might take a while to answer. BEN
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Hi Ben, I have same connection as Paul, his Father was my mums brother.
If there are two sets of Benjamin & sarah crowthers how many marriage certificates have you found for those names, I assume there are two?
also is it that you didn't find Ben & Sarah in the Dewsbury Parish registers you searched, or is it that the baptisms for that specific time period are missing?
look forward to your reply.
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Hi, Another distant relative welcome to the swelling ranks! Terry and I found the marriage of a Ben and Sarah from 1818 in the Birstall records when we went to Huddersfield library. Our trip to Leeds was ment to find Bens birth1791 in dewsbury or birstall we looked around that date in both records but nothing. Meaning we missed the entries or they were not there to find or we are barking up the wrong tree with Dewsbury. We did find a couple of pages full of other Crowthers in that area. Terry looked for a marriage for a Jonas and a Mary but still nothing. We also looked in the Rothwell records for a Sarah Dennison, Georges mother in law but agian nothing but a confirmation that a Robert Turner and a Sarah Denison were married there we got as much from the LDS site. again we may have got something if we had widened the search but we ran out of time! I go on my hols Wed so I'll have a good think while I'm away and maybe come up with some new leads. BEN
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Gary Murphy and I have been in extensive contact about matters arising from this thread. Since he and I were last in contact he has done a lot of work relevant to Benjamin Crowther (George Crowther's Dad, Aunt Euphemia's great grandad, and my great great great Grandad).
First, I have to confess I got a few things wrong. Benjamin and Sarah and family were in Leeds by 1841 (as Ben and Terry also discovered) . I had used the 1851 census date to determine that Benjamin was born in Birstall in 1790/1. The 1841 census suggests that he was born in 1795. Gary has persuaded me that the 1795 Benjamin is, in fact ours.
The Benjamin born in that year had a father called William, and its striking that there's evidence to suggest that he had other children - with names that were all given, also, by Ben to some of his children.
The other big booboo I made was in insisting on Benjamin being married to a Sarah Kitson. Gary has discovered that in the censuses for 1841 and 1851, there is a Ben and Sarah Crowther living at Staincliffe (near Batley) with a brother-in-law - George Kitson also in residence with them. It would be truly bizarre if there were two Benjamin Crowthers married to two Sarah Kitsons in the same area.
Garry has also found that, in Leeds, Benjamin's son - also called Benjamin - died in I844. There's also a death certificate for a baby boy called James in the same year. He died eight weeks old. On this certificate, Sarah's maiden name is given - Asquith. So this means that we should look for a marriage certificate for Ben. Crowther and Sarah Asquith. Sorry to have got this wrong.
Paul
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Further matters.
Gary has found that Benjamin actually signed his son's death certificate - so he was literate.
However, a few mysteries remain. Gary is considering a theory that a marriage between a Benjamin Cawthra and a Sarah Asquith at Bradford in 1821 may be 'ours' - maybe the vicar misheard the name. However, Bradford is a distance from Birstall, and this Benjamin couldn't write and so had to sign the certificate with 'his mark'. So we agree that the marriage certificate we are looking for may still be out there - maybe at Batley or Dewsbury.
The other mystery concerns Benjamin's other children. There may have been a John Crowther born in 1823, and the 1851 census has a son called William in the household. But they are not listed with the family in the 1841 census...
Finally, if the 1795 Benjamin is indeed ours, his dad William was born at Birstall in 1762/3, and his father was a Peter, who was born in the 1720's. But as I got it wrong before don't rely on this!
That's all for now.
Paul
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New detective work from Gary Murphy.
There was, indeed, a son called John born to Benjamin Crowther and Sarah Asquith. He was baptised on August 24th 1823, and died on February 13th 1825. Gary has copies of both the baptismal and death certificates.
He's also solved the mystery of the extra son 'William'. I quote him
'Hannah Crowther married William Hodgson on Oct 13th 1850 at Leeds parish church, she states her address as Mabgate Fold and her father as Benjamin.
So in the 1851 Mabgate Fold Census “William” aged 20 born at Leeds, is not William (Crowther) but is in fact William HODGSON, Son in Law'.
I think that Gary must be absolutely right on this, as he's correlated the info with subsequent census returns for William and Hannah.
Paul
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Hi all, very interesting about the Ben and Sarah's. It was a good spot seeing the George Kitson in the census I had looked at that return before but did not see it. I can see that this is going to be complicated to work out. I have just been thinking the kids of our Ben and Sarah have the birth place down as Scholes. Am I right in saying Scholes is closer to Bradford and the wives usually had the first few kids at or near to their families. Are we looking at the right Scholes? it might not be the one near Birstall. And I think it possible that the two Ben's are related cousins maybe. I looked through a lot of records Dewsbury and Birstall and there was very few Bens. To get two in the same trade a few miles apart is a bit strange if they are not in the same family. BEN
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Just thought I would post this because it is so good! I had an idea of going to see this engine next year probably at Lincoln. It would be good if a few more Crowthers and relative came too what do people think?
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Hello to all
Just registered on here after connecting to this thread via ancestry.co.uk.
I've only just started on researching my family history and got the break I needed last night when I finally found an entry for my grandad Crowther. He was John and seems to be the son of William Crowther (1860-1908).
I didn't notice until I read an earlier post on this thread that his birth date (1885) was prior to William's marriage to Margret Mackenzie and was fascinated to read Paul's info on William's earlier marriage to Hannnah Enoch. So, I'm assuming that my grandad Crowther (John) was the son of William & Hannah.
My Dad, Ronald (John's youngest child) remembered the name Famy as one of his Dad's siblings and I'm assuming this to be a shortened version of Euphamia. Can anyone confirm this. Dad also has memories of a Harry (Paul's Dad?).
My Dad's memories of John's family are sketchy. Dad (Ronald) was born in 1929, well after both his paternal grandparents (William & Margret - or Hannah) had died.
John was a skilled horse handler and, I'm told, went to France in WW1 with heavy horses.
My Dad also remembers his Dad talking of his family's work with travelling fairs which correlates with George Crowther's (William's father, & John's grandad) listing in the 1871 census as a "Traveller with swing boat".
Love to hear from anyone related and really interested in getting together to see that superb showman's engine next year.
Cheers all
Geoff
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Hi Geoff nice to hear from you it is my side of the Crowthers that travelled through Sarah Elizabeth ( who became Elizabeth Johnson) and Robert, Georges children. I think we have covered much of the stuff we know in this thread so if we can help just ask. Paul, Gary and Terry are all decended from William they have some more stuff on Williams children and I think there is a photo of Femy knocking around. Speak to you soon BEN
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Dear Geoff,
To confirm, 'Famy' was indeed, Euphemia Crowther. She was given the name (presumably) because of Maggie Mackenzie's mum (maiden name Euphemia Reid). The 'Harry' you refer to could have been my Dad or Grandad. Both were on the Gipton estate from 1937 onwards. (Where are your people from? Are you still in the Leeds area).
I can add interesting new info about the deep genetic ancestors. All the male line from George (and before) are members of the genetic haplogroup N1c1.
I mentioned in an earlier post that this is of Finnish origin. I can now tell everyone that there is a research project underway which has linked my genes (and therefore everyone else with a blood relation to George) to a specific historical person called Rurik. His tribe - the Varangian Rus were Swedish Vikings who created the first Russian state in the 9th century. Much of the Russian aristocracy is descended from him.
My genes suggest that Rurik and I have common ancestors - Finns who lived in the Uppland 'county' of Sweden around the Roslagen coastal area (north of Stockholm). They were gradually absorbed into Swedish society and were the Vikings who mainly went east.
However, when York was taken by the Vikings in 866, they were led by Swedish ones. There was another wave of incursions involving Swedish Vikings from around 1000 to 1050. So our ancestors were probably Rus who were involved in this (somewhere).
Do you have any old family photos?
Best wishes,
Paul
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Hi Paul,
This stuff about the Vikings is great realy good history, I love it! I will look forward to seeing the results when you have finnished (little joke there).
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Hi everyone and a very happy new year to you all
Paul, the answers to your questions are:
My Crowther ancestors are clearly the same as yours, at least from George (1827-1894) back. George is my great, great grandfather. I'm assuming from your knowledge of Euphemia and Maggie MacKenzie that your ancestor is probably Harry, William and Maggie's youngest son (born 1902). I'm guessing that's your grandfather; am I right?
So, you probably know that William and Maggie lived on Bridge Road, Headingley in 1891 when my grandad, John (born 1885, presumably to William and Hannah Enoch) was 6 years old. In 1901 they lived in Weaver's Square, East Leeds.
My Dad, Ron, John's youngest son, remembers living on Fawcett St as a child (he was born in 1929) and just yesterday as I was sharing this stuff with him, he remembered going to St.Saviours school which he reckons was just around the corner from Fawcett St.
My grandparents John and Emma (Wilcock) moved to the Wykebecks, a large council estate to the north of Leeds and lived on Wykebeck Avenue when my Dad was a boy. They still lived on Wykebeck Avenue (in a different house) when I was young and I well remember visting them there, pretty much every Sunday. I note that Euphemia (my grandad's half sister) also lived on the Wykebeck's with her hubby, George Mark. My Mum and Dad both remember Aunt Famy well as a lovely natured lady. Dad reckons she inherited Maggie's large stature. Just yesterday he told me a story told to him by his Dad that someone came to their home (William and Maggie's) looking for one of the boys and, for whatever reason, Maggie saw him off with a smart right hook!
John had a bit of a reputation for bareknuckle fighting and also spoke of looking out for his youngest brother (half-brother) Harry. From your earlier story Paul, it rather looks like he picked up some tips from John. (I reckon I've answered my earlier question Paul - this must be your grandad.)
Don't know how well you know Leeds Paul, but the Wykebeck's were quite close (within a couple of miles) to Temple Newsam house and estate. We made regular family visits up there for picnics when I was small. I should add that I'm 56, born in 1953 so my early memories are from the 50s. We didn't have a car until I was around 10 so we walked a lot or used public transport including Leeds' famous trams. I have many happy memories or riding on them and switching the hinged wooden seat backs when they changed direction at the terminus.
After I was born we lived on Spencer Place (which later in the 60s and 70s became the centre of Leeds red light district) and after that on Roxholme Avenue, just the other side of Potternewton Park. I went to Roundhay School, the grammer school on the edge of Roundhay Park. After marrying I lived in Woodlesford, SE of Leeds, then Denby Dale, nr Huddersfield and now Hayfield, Derbyshire. My Mum & Dad moved out to Wetherby.
I'm not sure of the Wykebeck estate's still there. I'm guessing not. When the weather improves (we're deep in snow at the moment, here at my home in the Peak District) I must get on my motorbike and take a trip to some of the places I remember in Leeds.
Ben, found a link re that Showman's engine. Evidently Crowther & Johnsons (of Sheffield) bought it new from Burrell's, the makers, but it was repossessed by Burrell's after 2 years cos our illustrious ancestors couldn't keep up the payments. It cost £2500 new; a lot of brass in them days eh?
I wonder if you guys, Paul and Ben, might consider letting me have your email addresses? I can't fathom out private messaging on this site.
Mine is geoff.kmrt@btinternet.com and I'd really like to be able to contact you directly since we're clearly related.
Finally, attached is a good photo of John Crowther, my grandad. I also have a couple of Euphemia, found on the internet. Let me know if you've not seen them.
I look forward to hearing from you both, (and any other relatives viewing here).
Take care and best wishes.
Geoff
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Hi Geoff, welcome to the fold. As you may have already picked this up from previous postings I will quickly run thru my connection. My grt grt grdad was george and my grt grdad was William d. 1908 and my grandad william b. 1887 to william and maggie. My dad was " wait for it" another william. He was born in 1912 and died in 1944. My mother remarried in 1946 and we seem to have lost touch with most Crowther relatives since then. I remember having a cousin and uncle both called Frank.
Just 18 months ago all I knew was that George was at the " OLD HOUSE AT HOME". since then with the imput from Ben, Paul and Gary plus others, I have found out so much interesting and colourful stuff and with the latest "viking" news from Paul it just gets better. It is good to see another photo of the family ( john) as it all helps with the bigger picture. I was born on the gipton estate in 1943
and strangely my mother ( maiden name Elizabeth Rushworth) also went to St Saviours. I knew the wykebecks well when I was a kid. We used to play at monkey bridge, do you remember it?.
I have a few certificates i.e. william and maggies marriage, George and Sarah Anns marriage and if you want copies I can email them to you. My email is (*). all the best for the new year Regards Terry Crowther
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Hi Terry
Thanks for the offer of those copies. I'll email you shortly.
Just wanted to put this note on so all could see it. I only started my research at the beginning of Dec 09 but I'm really enjoying it.
You mention Sarah, George's wife. She's referred to as both Sarah Turner and Sarah Dension, causing onfusion when reserching her history, and I saw somwhere that she married using her mother's maiden name ie Denison. I couldn't help thinking that's a really strange thing to do! However, I found a much more plausible explanation a couple of weeks back and, whilst I can't remember where I saw it (in someone else's tree on ancestry.co.uk I think) it makes sense.
Sarah's mum, Sarah Ann Davy, born 1800 in Leeds, married Matthew DENISON. Matthew died in 1838. Note that Sarah (George's wife) was born about 1929. Sarah then married James Arundel and he had kids as did the two of them together. By 1851 Sarah Ann and James had separated and Sarah Ann was living "in sin" with Robert TURNER.
In 1851 James Arundel returns as a carrier, calling himself Halden, Aldon or Holden with kids including the one he had with Sarah Ann, John.
By 1861 Sarah Ann was alone, as a pauper.
Whilst I don't have evidence for all that stuff it does fit with the Denison/Turner confusion. Sarah married George in 1850, at which time her mum was living with Robert Turner. It's reasonable to suppose that they were using the name Turner to protect Sarah Ann's reputation and lend an air of respectability to the family. But, technically, Sarah's proper maiden name was Denison, the name of her late father, Matthew. Therefore, there's actually no mystery any more; rather Sarah's name never was, legally, Turner, but, in fact, Denison.
I like the story, and the colour it adds to the story of Sarah Ann Davy.
By the way, when I get around to visiting Leeds I plan to go and have a look at Beckett St cemetary, which seems to be the final resting place of several Crowthers. Can anyone give me the location? Will my sat nav find Beckett St.?
Cheers
Geoff
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Hi Geoff, thank you for your suggestion re the mystery of Sarahs name. Its certainly quite a complex explanation and I will have to print it off and sit in a quiet corner somewhere to peruse. I cant wait for Ben to see this as we have spent a lot of time seeking the answer to this one.
re Becketts st cemetery. I have a map supplied by Paul and produced by Gary showing the grave positions in the cemetery.It is excellent and will save you a lot of time looking. I can email this to you.
The cemetery is opposite St James hosp on Becketts st. The hosps is well signed but parking could be a problem.
Looking thru some of my stuff I have found an entry on the 1871 census for Enoch. You have probably got this but just in case not I will show it below.
17 Stainburn sq.
David Enoch . 42 hawker born london shoreditch
Hannah Enoch 42 " Cumberland
David 15 mechanic london
Sarah 10 leeds
Hannah 8
Mary Ann 5
Ellen 3
regards Terry
Happy new year also to Ben , Paul, Gary and any other Crowther/ Johnsons
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Happy new year to all as well.
Tonight my son - Alexander - and I were in a restaurant in Ljubljana (Slovenia) talking about our ancestors,etc. He's the first of my line of Crowthers not to be born within a 20 mile radius of Leeds-Bradford. He was born in Ljubljana. Hopefully there will be a new line of the family who grow up in Slovenia, and imagine themselves (through creative misinterpretation) to be Leeds Vikings.
The picture of John Crowther is wonderful. I was amazingly struck by how his eyes and mouth reminded me of my Dad. My wife pointed out that his ears also looked like Dad's.
One nice little detail that Geoff's messages have explained is something I raised in a previous post. My Dad told me that at Maggie Mackenzie's funeral one of the sons punched her brother because he'd never cared about her when she was alive. I always thought this was Benjamin, but I remember my Dad correcting me on this.
I couldn't recall which brother he said it was. But when I read Geoff's post, I remembered that it was 'Uncle John'. Don't know if my Dad actually met him, but he certainly knew of him !
It was great to hear of Maggie's pugilistic prowess as well. It would be wonderful if people on this thread could contribute other anecdotes - no matter how small. The Crowthers were modest working people whose stories deserve to be told and preserved...
As further details emerge about the deep ancestry stuff, I'll post it.
Best wishes,
Paul
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Hi Paul
Well, I'm pleased to have been able to jog your memory and I'm sure my Dad will be amused when I tell him it was his Dad who thumped Maggie's brother at the funeral.
As you say, it's these colourful stories of simple, hardworking folk that enrich the history of our family. I'm indebted to you for expanding my knowledge.
Best wishes to you and the Slovenian Crowthers.
Cheers
Geoff
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Happy New Year to all you Vikings! (Paul, Ben,Terry and Geoff)
I have just read Geoff's comments on Sarah Ann Turner/Dennison and her mother Sarah and hope to have some news to add to his theory soon.
Best Wishes, Gary
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Hi there,
I think this will be only relevant to Geoff because it is mainly about Hannah Enoch and her family.
At one time I had a lot of info on the Enoch family but when I found out she was not a direct relation to me I deleted a lot of it, but I will tell you what I remember.
Hannah's mother was from Whitehaven in Cumbria
Her father was described as an image maker etc, but I remember finding out that he was actually a Sculptor (no connection to taking photos) David came from Shoreditch in London born in 1829 I think.
Their children don't seem to have been very healthy because a lot of them died, a quick search of Beckett Street Cemetery records will help you there Geoff.
I suspected that Hannah may have been Jewish but I later found that she was baptised in a C of E Church (can't remember which one).
All the Enoch family are buried in Beckett Street cemetery.
Hope this helps you in some way Geoff.
Best wishes
Gary
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Hi Gary
Good to be in touch and thanks very much for this
Might explain my artistic flair!
Cheers
Geoff
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In reply to Geoff's theory on our Sarah Ann Dennison's Mother Sarah...
Geoff mentions a Sarah Davey
Sarah Davey Married Mathew Dennison 25th July 1820 at Leeds Parish Church, Matthew Dennison died in 1838.
Sarah (Davey) Denison Married James Arundel Dec 16 1839 at Leeds Parish Church
The only problem with this theory is that the father of our Sarah Ann Dennison was called ROBERT Dennison, we know this from her marriage to George Crowther.
And our Sarah Ann's mother Sarah, was already living with Robert Turner in the June 7th 1841 Census.
So the Sarah Davey Geoff mentions is not the person we are looking for!
Best wishes
Gary
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Hi to all,
Terry and I found a Sarah Denison and a Robert Turner married Rothwell I think 1835. This could be our gal. I looked in the indexes around that time for any other Denisons but no luck. I know from the census that Robert worked on the railway so they could have moved around a bit. The censuses also don't agree on the ages of Sarah and Robert. There is also a William Denison living with them and he is handicapped. Why is he on the return as Denison and Sarah Ann as Turner. Maybe Robert did not want his name to a handicapped kid. Sarah Denison might have married in another place other than Leeds first.
BEN
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Hi again,
How is this for a theory, I have just been looking on the IGI site and come across a Sarah Ann Turner father Robert and Mother Sarah. She is entered as Born 1829 christened 1835 lindley cum quarmby. Could this be our Sarah Ann born out of weddlock and then when mum and dad are married then christened? BEN
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Hello everyone.
Here's a photo of Henry (Harry) Crowther senior - my Grandad. He was the youngest of Willie and Maggie's children (1902 - 1967) and was the first of them to die. I think I recall my Dad saying that at the funeral, Uncle Ben (one of the other siblings) said that it's always the youngest who die first.
The photo is a detail of a larger group, and was provided by Gary Murphy. I imagine that it was taken around 1961.
I don't look anything like my father's family - my dubious looks are inherited mainly from the mother's side. That being said, a few years before he died, my Dad looked at me from the other side of the room, and said that for a moment he thought he'd been looking at his Dad.
There may be a specific reason for this. I have a curious unconscious mannerism - a kind of mild facial grimace that I pull in odd moments when I'm concentrating, or have just finished doing something. I suspect that Grandad Crowther did this as well - maybe it was that the grimace that caught my Dad;s attention. I wonder if anyone else has noted similar behavioural 'tics' in their family...
Best wishes,
Paul
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Actually, I just realised that the message I just posted contains a puzzle. Surely John Crowther - the elder brother of Henry - must have died first. Geoff, when did your Grandad die? In fact do you know what line of work he was in? Henry was a baker first, then worked in a sawmill for most of his life - apart from the second world war, which I detailed in an earlier post.
Paul
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Hi Paul
My Grandad John (the eldest) died in 1968. I have vague memories of his funeral; I was 15. Other than the info you've passed on about Harry, I've no idea about any of the other siblings.
John was a dustcart driver for Leeds City Council before he retired.
Don't know about any other employment (must ask my Dad) except that he went to France in WWI handling heavy horses.
Oh, and he spent some time travelling with the fairs.
Lovely photo of Harry.
Cheers
Geoff
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Hi Paul that photo is great. Has a look of my grandad although I have no pics of him I have a dvd of various weddings etc it has a few good shots of him. BEN
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Hi everyone,
Just thought i would give my thoughts on the Turner/Dennison saga,
I think that Robert Turner was Sarah Ann's stepfather but she must have been only a few years old when her mother Sarah married? Robert Turner, which would explain why she used the name Turner because it was all she ever knew, but her biological father was Robert Dennison.
William Dennison the son, must have been of an age to remember his father Robert Dennison so he was resistant to taking the name Turner.
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Hello again!
I attach a picture of my paerents wedding in 1951, at St. Mary's Church in Middleton Leeds. My sister was married in the same church, and my maternal grandparents are both buried there.
From the viewer's position, my maternal grandparents are to the left, and the Crowthers to the right. I'm posting this because of my mention of the slight 'grimace' in a previous post. Grandad Crowther is doing it a little in this shot.
Best wishes,
Paul
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PS. Apparently, at the wedding, grandad Crowther caused a little unease amongst the maternal grandparents through breaking into the following song at the wedding reception
'There's an old mill by the stream,
Nellie Dean.
Where we used to sit and dream,
Nellie Dean.' etc...
There, you can't say we don't have a bit of culture on this thread !
Paul
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Hi all, The last suggestions re turner/ dennison seem to makevery good sense in view of the lack of any other evidence. Glad to see more Crowther photos appearing.
Does the attached photo mean anything to anyone?. It was among a number of photos left by my mother which we assumed were the maternal side of the family. Nobody can identify these two blokes and a number of people have remarked that the guy standing has got a look of myself and my brother about him. Just a shot in the dark but you never know.
Thanks for looking Regards to all Terry
ps seem to be having trouble attaching photo, if it has not come thru I will try again. terry
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try again
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Hi folks its me again. Every time I try to attach a photo it tells me that there already is a file with that name. Please rename . I have renamed it three times and it still wont have it.
Anybody able to tell me what I am doing wrong? help . Terry
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Hi Terry. It did the same to me yesterday you could just send it to every body by good old e-mail! BEN
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Hi Terry
I've just posted a photo elsewhere on the site so seems to be working now. Why not try again?
Geoff
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William Denison Sarah anns' brother ran this pub.
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Hello everyone.
Seeing as we are now on the pub theme again, I attach an image of the Black Horse in Mabgate. It still stands.
This pub is directly opposite where Mabgate Fold was. Since it was there in 1868, it would have been very familiar to George Crowther and all his children - at least to look at. I daresay they might have had the odd drink in there, as well.
Best wishes,
Paul
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Hi all,
I have a small question for you all, it might sound strange but How straight is your little pinky? According to my Gran all the Johnsons especially the males had little fingers that turn inward at the last joint. My little fingers are bent inward so are my sons. I just wondered if this was a Johnson traight or a Crowther one.
told you it was strange but interesting BEN
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Dear Ben,
What an interesting question ! My little fingers are fairly straight. However - though I've never noticed it before - the middle finger on my left hand turns massively to the left from its base. When I hold the hand up, and look at it, the middle finger and the one next to the little finger appear as if they were actually joined. (They're not, of course.)
I'd be interested to hear if Terry and Geoff have a similar displacement. My configuration, however, may be due to the fact that I used to play the piano a lot when I was young, and used to do most of the work with my left hand.
Best wishes,
Paul
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Sorry, nothing especially strange about my fingers guys. I won't mention my webbed feet and small brain! Just kidding ;).
My brother and I had a day exploring Leeds looking for graves and family homes just the other day; not only for Crowthers but also Archs, the maternal side of my family. I've begun adding lots of present-day pictures of locations my ancestors lived in on my family tree on ancestry.co.uk as well as photos of ancestors where I have them. I've also added as much information as I have about ancestors; addresses, occupations plus any anecdotes. If you can access this, please have a look.
Next time I'm in Leeds I must make a point of having a drink in the Black Horse, Paul. I'm really excited at the idea of drinking in the same pub as George!
Considering that George became a publican, this is a nice link back to the start of this thread.
Cheers all,
Geoff
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Hi there all, Geoff I would like an invite to your tree please so I can see the friuts of your labour so to speak.
In the past few weeks Gary with a little help from me has futhered the Denison/ Turner mystery. Now it would appear that Sarah (Sarah Ann's mum) was married to a Jonathan Denison a Joiner. We could only find the marriage of a Jonathan Denison and a Sarah Kindrew 1813 Leeds but this could still fit. Gary found births for an Ann and a William in the Bank area of Leeds. Ann died in infancy and we assume that William is the same one as on the censuses with Sarah and Robert.
Gary then found a death record for a Jonathan Denison 1829 aged 43
Meanwhile Robert was married as far as we can see to a Hannah. There is a record of a Hannah Turner who dies 1834. CONT ON NEXT POST.
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So all the dates are right and the areas where they lived and died. So we come to the conclusion that.
If Jonathan died in 1829 and then Hannah died in 1834 and Sarah and Robert got together in 1835 and that Sarah Ann was born in 1831 that Sarah Ann's father is..............we still don't know!
It could be that she is another man's child born out of wedlock or Robert and Sarah could of had a fling before Hannah died. There would appear to not be a christening for Sarah Ann or we have not find it so maybe she was a little b$&*@&d! Sarah Ann might have been just confused when she put Denison on her marriage cert or it could have been a missunderstanding we just don't know>
I think we should all thank Gary for a stirling effort in this research.
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Hi everybody. Just to let you know that my fingers are as straight as a die.
I have had many a pint in the black horse where I used to meet up with a pal of mine two or three times a year. Internally it had lots of glazed tiling probably from the Burmantofts Pottery which was very close by. I can imagine the clan walking down from mabgate fold for a few glasses of sherry on an evening.
I agree with comments re Garys research, excellent job. Regards to all Terry
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Just me with the fingers then! Seems it could have been from Edward Johnson then or just a freak of nature hmm! We'll never know. BEN
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Hi you Crowthers
What a fantastic story which has taken me nearly an hour to read. Its lovely that you mananged to pick up more relatives along the way and all add your bits of info.
Coming from Armley Leeds 12 myself but still aware of the comaradary that existed in the 'olden' days it was great watching the story unfold through the generations.
My Midgleys used to live down in Sheepscar which isnt far from your Mabgate Fold you mention so probably passed each other on the streets.
One thing about the showman part of the family. In those days there used to be scores of fairs or feasts as they were called in Leeds and I remember as a child travelling to lots of them all over Leeds. There used to be one up York Road which is not far from Mabgate. So it wouldnt have been hard for your family to settle down nearby.
You mention Scholes which is or was a small village. There are 3 around Leeds and just wondered which one you think it is your family come from?
One is on the way to Barwick in Elmet, one near Kirklees and the other Holme Valley.
I am also interested in the Viking genes as well, but being a female am waiting for my sons to have the test as I am sure most people from the Leeds area originate from the Vikings. If your family is like mine, there is always a blonde daughter even though both the parents have darker hair. Just wondered if you have the same gene that we have in our family as I always blame that on the Vikings.
Loved reading it all and hope you managed to meet up eventually
regards Sandymc,
Yorkshire Lass
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Hi there Sandy, I am glad you like the story. It is my side of the family that travelled and they did till the early fifties. My grandad was born in a showmans van on York st fairground. We have not all met up yet we are planning to. Terry and I have met a few times and gone researching in Huddersfield and Leeds. It was he and I who first contacted each other on here. At the moment we are in contact with 10 relatives through this site and ancestry's family trees. I think it has been one of the best parts of doing the family tree finding relatives I did not know about. It has been good bouncing ideas off each other but the crowning glory for me and my dad was the discovery of the steam engine. Hopefully it will be soon that we can meet up and have good old chin wag about the family and I am sure there will be many more posts on here. As we speak we are trying to find an Azubah Crowther but not having much luck! Thanks for reading our post so far and I hope you find what you are looking for. BEN
PS. it is the the Scholes nearest to Birstall as far as we can see.
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I am interested in herbert crowther who is a cinematograph traveller in 1911. wondered if anyone has links to him or has come across him.
I think he is one who may link to my family.
We do have stories od travellers in the fmaily and he is my first confirmed one although his parents samuel & sarah has a number of children on the move.
linda in aus.
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Hi Linda, I have not heard of a Herbert Crowther in relation to our family that does not mean he is not one of us. My Greatgrandad was Herbert Johnson. Maybe one of the other Crowthers on this string has heard of him. What part of England was he from! Our lot did not venture much from Yorkshire or around Leeds.
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Terry has just made me aware of this Corgi Model of the Crowther engine, Cool or what! Nice price though but it might be worth it!
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Nice to see the Corgi model !
Just a minor update on the deep genetic ancestry front. I received a message from a Lithuanian gentleman who is a member of a project. Here are parts of his message.
'I am contacting you because your Y-DNA (in ysearch.org database) is sharing unusual allele dys392=15 and your markers are similar to Lithuanian Grand Dukes Gediminds...
The main aims of the project are:
To understand if early rulers of the Lithuanian medieval state were originating from early Baltic specific population or from the newcomers from sailed to Lithuania some time around 10th century A.D. as second and third editions of the Lithuanian chronicles suggest.'
It may be, in other words, that some of the Finnic people who migrated to Sweden and became Viking Rus, also migrated to Lithuania, and formed a separate genetic line; or it may be that Rus went from Sweden and set up in Lithuania, at around the same time that some of them came to England, and others went into Russia. (The name 'Russia' of course, is thought to derive from 'Rus'.)
Whichever is the case, it means that as well as sharing a common ancestor with Rurik (and the Russian aristocracy who provided the Czars down to and including Ivan the Terrible), we also share an ancestor with the old Lithuanian aristocracy as well. The ancestor in question probably lived in Finland between 1500 and 2000 years ago.
Anyway that's all for now - have to get the servants to feed the reindeer.
Best wishes,
Paul
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This sounds great Paul, are we going to find out that the Crowthers once owned the whole of eastern Europe!
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fff
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At present Benjamin Crowther is the furthest back we've got in tracing our ancestors in definite terms.
There was a Benjamin christened at Birstall in 1794 to Hannah Crowther, and one christened in the same place in 1795 to William Crowther. Given that our family seems to transmit Christian names from one generation to another, I found it odd that Benjamin's family contained no William.
However, it turns out that a William Crowther aged 2 - son of Benjamin - was buried at Cleckheaton on October 31st 1824. This would suggest that our next ancestor along is, indeed, William. The problem then, is that there are two William Crowthers christened at Birstall in the 1760's. However, one of them has a Dad called Peter - which name never occurs amongst our nineteenth-century ancestors, whilst the one born in 1767 has a Dad called John - which is very much one of our names.
Another intriguing discovery. There is a pub in Cleckheaton - near Scholes - called The Old House at Home. The building can be seen online. It doesn't look pre-twentieth-century, but it may have been re-faced, or built on the site of an earlier pub. Whatever the case, it's surely too much of a coincidence that our George Crowther had a pub of the same name. Maybe he gave it that name as a reminder of where he lived as a child.
It would be interesting to know whether the Cleckheaton pub was, indeed, there in the 1830's, and whether George's pub was given its name when he took it over.
Paul
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Oops. I just made a mistake. The William who was christened in 1767 had a Dad called William as well. It was his Grandad who was called John.
Paul
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That is good detective work Paul. When Terry and I visited Leeds records we had a look at the Birstall records I think at that time we were trying to confirm or disprove the Jonas and Mary as parents. We did disprove this but by time we had we did not have any time left. I did notice that there were a lot of the same names in the area.
This is a good lead to look in to.
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Just had a look at the trade directories on genuki there is no mention of the Old House at home in Clekheaton 1822-37. It does not look like the name came from an existing pub.
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Benny's absolutely right - there's no reference to a pub called The Old House at Home in the Cleckheaton area in the 1820's or 30's.
But how weird a coincidence can you get !? That name is so rare...
Paul
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I just noticed that the William Crowther (whose dad was called William) who I mentioned in a previous post, is listed as being christened on April 7th 1767 at Cleckheaton - and not just Birstall. This is another point in favour of him being ours.
Paul
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THE OLD HOUSE AT HOME This name originates from a once-popular ballad, often recounted by soldiers longing to return home from the battlefield.
This is what i can get find about the name of the pub. It would seem that there are two in the Leeds area now the one in Cleckheaton and one in Shipley.
So the name has precedence in the area but the original pub could of been a persons front room that sold beer, it maybe of only stayed open a while. The ones in the directories may have been the bigger purpose built or more established pubs in town centres.
It is a very good chance that the one George had in Leeds was his front room with a brew house out back.
So I say that Pauls theory could still be valid and probably worth looking in to.
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A small point. There's often interesting info buried between the line in facts one already has.
I notice that in the baptismal entry for Benjamin Crowther at Birstall Parish Church in 1795 (which Gary again provided)his dad William is listed as of 'Birstall' whereas as other entries on the same page involve fathers living at other places in the area. This makes it solid that our forebears were from the intersection of Birstall, Scholes, Cleckheaton, and Drub. I wonder if they supplemented their clothwork with a bit of small-scale farming - in which case they might be on a land registry somewhere.
I notice also that one of Benjamin's children - Hannah - was able to write her name on her marriage certificate (again provided to me by Gary, ages ago). The fact that she could write means of course that she was taught by someone. It's not really feasible that anyone outside the family would have done this. So it must have been Benjamin who taught her.
This tells us that Benjamin valued literacy. Maybe he tried to teach the others, but was only successful with her.
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Hi everybody, please ignore me if this has been covered already. I was able to search using the "address" feature and typing in " the old house at home" in the 1891 census gave me the following.
James Mann - brewer - The old house at home - stainburn st - leeds.
also , in the 1881 census there was another Old house at home at theaker lane- Armley Leeds run by a Mr Sowden who described himself as an Innkeeper/Butcher.
Regards to all Terry
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Hi there
I remember when I was younger in the 1950's going down Theaker Lane and drinking Ginger Beer which was brewed in someones house. The alcoholic kind wasnt allowed by that time.
The people who brewed it were I think the Bennets. Saying that a girl I went to school with who lived quite close to Theaker Lane, Armley was called Christine Snowden (Surname).... This lady is still alive as far as I know so although she is married now I dont want to give her identity from the 1950's even though she was married and will have another surname now. I often wondered why her middle name was Snowden but thought it was the Mountain in Wales. Now I know about this brewery in Theaker Lane and a Mr Snowden I realise that is maybe why my school friend had a middle name of Snowden. At least I now know and remember well the taste of that Ginger beer as even now after 55years I can still remember the taste lol
regards Sandymc
born in Armley Leeds and proud of it!!
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Hi guys,
I think there may be another link into the early Crowthers, unfortunately I have no access to any resources so hope one of you may take up challenge!
Paul mentioned the village of DRUB, this is where Harriet Crowther was born and I remember looking at this a long time ago and found that there was also a Crowther family living in the same village. I think I looked at only the 1851 Census though.
Can anyone check this out and see if we can connect that family to her Father Benjamin or his father William? it may help us go further back!!!
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Cancel the above message, I have found the details I was looking for! :)
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This just a belated thanks to Ben for organizing the get together in July in Mabgate. It was great to see so many people.
The only new developments have been some amazing work by Gary on the Mackenzie side of the family. If he doesn't mind, I can post the most interesting facts about it, soon. These will be relevant to Terry and Joe Crowther, as well as myself and Gary.
Regards to all,
Paul
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Thanks Paul, it was a good day really nice putting faces to names. Maybe we could meet up again in the future I know Terry was a bit gutted at missing out on meeting you all. We might choose a more salubrious surroundings for next time. I know my dad enjoyed reminiscing about Leeds and the show ground life.
BEN
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Hi all, as Ben has said I was most unchuffed on missing the "gathering of the clans" in leeds due to holiday commitments.It would have been good to meet everyone and have a chat about the family and fairground stuff. and put faces to names. I am looking forward Paul, with interest to anything you are able to post of Garys research on the Mackenzies.
Regards to All Terry
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Hi Guys,
I thought it may be of interest for you to see the Gravestones of Maggie Mckenzie's parents, however I forgot about 500kb limit so if you would like to have better copies I could email them.
They are both in Beckett Street cemetery, both have variant spellings of the surname, you choose which one you prefer! :)
Regards to all.
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Sorry, the image I wanted to post exceeds the limit. So I;m afraid it's all down to your imaginations...
Best wishes,
Paul
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Can I wish all the Crowthers and Johnsons I have met over the past few months and years a very merry Xmas and a Prosperous new year!
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Dear All,
Sorry for the cryptic message above. I didn't realize that not only the image I was wanting to post but the message itself hadn't been posted.
Anyway, here's a bit of the Pettingell and Brownlow Thompson aerial map of Leeds from 1886. I assumed that they imagined it from lots of sketches etc. There are many inaccuracies in it (some quite spectacular). However, I've put a yellow blob to the right of the gasometer - which is where the Square ought to be. I've put another small blob a bit higher up - to the right of which is the approximate site of Mabgate Fold
I'm also posting a photo from the Leodis website that Gary has just sent me. Stainburn Square is definitely in this. It's the reverse L shaped building (with another building enclosed within the L) to the immediate right of the gasometer that is pointed out by the grey arrow.
Next time, I'll post some of the fascinating details that Gary has uncovered about the Mackenzies, and, for light relief, an indication of where our ancestors were 1990 years ago.
Best wishes for the new year to everyone !!!
Paul
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Hi everyone. I am not sure if I have posted my reply correctly so I am trying again.
Best Wishes for the new year to all
Special thanks to Atbash and Paul for the Mckenzies grave pictures and the pictures showing the locations of Stainburn Sq and Mabgate Fold. Very useful.
Taken from a Leeds newspaper July 1873 , a sad story which must have caused George a few sleepless nights.
During the week Mr Emsley, The Leeds Coroner, has held inquests in the following instances:on the body of John Wm Dunning, seven years of age, who died at the dispensary on Saturday night from injuries recieved the same afternoon by falling out of a swing-boat in the Leeds Fair. The evidence was to the effect that the deceased had overbalanced himselfwhile endevouring to reach the cap of a boy named Scholes, and fell to the ground, a distance of between eight and ten feet.His skull was terribly crushed, and several of his ribs were broken. He was insensible from the first, and died shortly after admission.He was riding for the second time, and had been placed in the middle of the boat by two different men , but had persisted in going forward to the end seat. The jury returned a verdict of " accidental death" , coupled with a recommendation that children of such tender age should not be allowed to enter fly-boats without having some protection-
The Coroner: I suppose either the protection of a man in charge or their parents?
- The Foreman: yes - The Coroner called George Crowther the owner of the boat,and asked him if he was prepared to carry out the recommendation. Crowther replied that he was, on which the coroner remarked that if a similar accident occured the result might be serious.
Regards Terry
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Hi Telnorm,
Thanks for the new info, I have also found out that the accident happened on Saturday July 12th 1873 at the Fair at Smithfield Market, Leeds.
There is another twist to the story, the Housekeeper to the family of the child who died, killed herself with rat poison a few days later, her mind been affected by the death of the child.
(Jul 16th 1873 Leeds Mercury, page 3)
With all this in mind,Was this the reason for George selling the Swingboat and buying the Pub ?
Happy New year to all.
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Hi atbash.
thanks for the additional tragic story re the housekeepers death.
Ben also thinks that George may have sold the swingboat and moved on to the pub as a result of the accident and the Coroners comments. I am sure that you have seen the reports of the many, many accidents involving swingboats in the old newspapers. It appears that they where the most dangerous fairground rides of the period.
Thanks again Terry
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Hi Terry,
Good work on finding the article about the accident, I'm not sure if everyone knows the location of the old Smithfield Market but on a modern map it is the park within the area of North Street junction with Grafton Street in Leeds.
I have an image of it from Bing Maps but I can't upload it because of the stupid 500kb limit :(
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Did the accident mentioned above, cause George Crowther to change his occupation?
If it did it took him another 5 years to achieve it, because the old house at home was not his pub by 1878 as this little Newspaper clip shows.
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Hi Guys,
I have just had another look at the 1911 Census and it states that during the marriage of Margaret and William Crowther they had 9 children, this would mean that John the eldest child was to Margaret and not to Hannah Enoch, as we were wondering when we met last summer.
William had one child with Hannah Enoch (George William)
and 9 with Margaret...
John, William, Euphemia, George, Ben, Robert, Hannah, Mary Ann, and Harry .
I hope that this is enough proof as to the true mother of John Crowther.
Best regards
Gary
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Hi Gary, thanks for the info regarding George not being in the pub till after 1878 and also the stuff regarding the smithfield market. I now realise that the park refered to was what we knew as Jews Park and was directly opposite Thomas Greens works.The park stretched from north st. upwards to what was camp rd.
Regarding John. I am still not entirely convinced that Maggie was his mother mainly because of his given ages on the censuses. I know sometimes these are unreliable but his seem consistent. The 1911, 1901 and 1891 give his ages as 26, 16 and 6. which would suggest a birth year of 1885/6. Hannah died in Mar 1886 and William married Maggie in Dec 1887. All a bit tight!. You obviously have some info on George William who I do not know anything about. Could you possibly post some info on him?. thanks again Regards Terry
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Hi Terry,
George William Enoch was born Dec 23rd 1884 at 10 Stainburn Square and died Dec 4th 1885 at 17 Stainburn Square, there are two entries in the death registers One for a George William Enoch and one for a George William Crowther, so William must have said he was the father, thats why the entry was later changed from Enoch to Crowther.
As for John there is a 15 month gap where he could have been born if he was Hannah Enoch's son, it is strange that it looks like the birth was not registered given that after 1875 there were prosecutions for non registration of a Birth.
Best regards
Gary
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Hello !
I am new to this forum. I am the son of Paul Crowther, Alex who you may met last year at the gathering.
There is an interesting factor about Crowthers in leeds.
It is funy but true. There were 3 Crowthers who lived in Leeds in 1888 that were born in Russia. They were probably of jewish descent. But, i checked on wikipedia that some russian jews have the haplogroup N, like we do, so it is a coincidence.
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Hi Alex,
An interesting item for your first post!
I have two questions, what birth year did the Russian born Crowthers have ?
Also what mtDNA Haplogroup do the Crowthers belong to, is it N1a or N1b.
Best regards
Gary
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The Crowthers were born in Russia in 1888 (maybe Ukraine, were most jews came from). Probably if the russian Crowthers came from northern russia(the pomor jews) they probably have haplogrop n1c1 or n2. But, if they came from the Ukraine they would probably have the r1b haplogrop that evolved from the N haplogroup. + i did a mtDNA test(maternal DNA) but from my mothers side(haplogroup U2, that is quite comon in Russia and in all of europe). I do not now what the mtDNA mark is for the Crowthers, as it is the maternal line.
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Benjamin Crowther(b.1795) in Gomersall, Birstall is one of the biggest mysteries. Where did he get married? If he wasnt maried his children would be iligitimate and would have the B marker on their baptism record.
1. We checked all electronic databases and several other e-records, where there is no record of a marriage in this name and surname.
2. We checked the Gretna Green records, and found no other records for this marriage.
3. Me and dad are going to visit the UK in June, this year. We will go to see the Wakefield archive(the oficial-geniuine recs) to see if they didnt transcribe it.
4. If anyone has any other thoughts, please reply to me.
Best Wishes
Alex Crowther
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Hi Alex,
I have had the time to look at the 1891 Census entry for the Russian Crowthers, and all is not as it appears!
The entry is for No 25 Mason Street, Leedsthe Census Enumerator seems to have got himself in a bit of a muddle, the correct details are...
Harris Berman Head
Rosy Berman Wife
Barnet Berman Son
Rachel Berman Dau
Louis Crowther Lodger
Malkie Frost Lodger
The enumerator has crossed over the dito's and continued with the same error for place of Birth, thus making it look like Louis Crowther was from Russia.
The Transcription error is easy to see if you get the chance to see a copy the actual entry.
So it does not look like any Crowthers were Born in Russia and There isn't any Jewish connection.
Hope the above is of help.
Best regards
Gary.
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Barnet Berman(later Crowther) was born in Russia !(i will put the link bellow).
Here is the link,
http://www.british-jewry.org.uk/leedsjewry/search.php?mylastname=CROWTHER&lnqualify=equals&mybool=AND
Best regards to all,
Alex
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Hi again,
Having done ancestry in and around Leeds for many years now I would
comment on the name Crowther.
It was a surname of many people and families in the area of Leeds where
the Bermans lived. They had a lodger called Crowther so adopted his name.
It was not unusual for Jewish families to adopt a local popular name where
they lived. This enabled the family to live in that area without the stigma
of being called names or at least giving their children a start in a very
close knit community as they had in the 1880's in Leeds. It was a way of
blending in with the locals without causing any trouble. With a strong accent
the name Berman could have sounded very different to uneducated people.
regards Sandymc
p.s. Cant believe this post is still ongoing, laugh, its been on for ages. Well done.
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Hi Alex,
I had already seen the link that you have included, all that site does is repeat the transcription as it is, it does not try to make sense of it! The Census does make mistakes, and I can see how there can be more than one way to interpret this entry (given the lack of other proofs), but I think we should avoid making rash assumptions with regards to the Berman family adopting the name Crowther, I can see no evidence for this, if they did why do we not see some evidence in the 1901 and 1911 Census.
Best regards
Gary
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Dear All,
Small genetic updates. It seems that about 2000 years ago our ancestors were in the Karelia area - split between Finland and Russia. I hope for more info on this.
I have 3% Neanderthal, and 2.3% Denisovan genetic material - which means that all the Crowther males on this thread do too ! The 3% Neanderthal is frequent in Europeans. The Denisovans - in case you didn't khow - are another branch of the hominid family whose existence was discovered in 2010. They lived in east Asia (some New Guineans and Melanesians have up to 6% Denisovan in them). Our ancestor(s) interbred with them as they moved through China and Mongolia into Siberia. (The Denisovan bone fragment from which their dna was recognized, was found in the Denisova cave in Siberia.)
I hope to be able to do something about restoring the collapsed Crowther gravestone in Beckett Street cemetery, soon. Will keep you all informed.
Best wishes,
Paul
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It's good to here from you Paul and very interesting stuff. Hope the new year find you and all the rest of the Crowther clan in good health.
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The Mackenzie story.
After a wretchedly long deferral, I shall now add some material researched by Gary concerning the origins of our Great Grandma (or whatever) Margaret Jane Mackenzie. It will come in two parts. First....
Margaret's Grandad was Hector Mackenzie who was born in 1772 in the Scottish highlands. The next entry will give his story in detail. Suffice it say now he was a professional soldier who fought in the Napoleonic wars.He was discharged from the army in 1816, and became a labourer, and then a porter.
On the 4th February 1830 in Aberdeen - at the age of 58! - he married Helen Monro, who was born in Tarbet, Rosshire. They had their first child John on 8th July 1833. Hector eventually received an army pension, and died in Aberdeen, being buried on July 5th 1847.
John Mackenzie became a bootmaker. He married Euphemia Reid - daughter of James Reid (a miner) at Dalkeith in Midlothian on 22nd October 1853. In the 1861 census, John, Euphemia, and their children Helen(6), Grace (4), Jemima (1), and Grandma Helen were living at 9 Charles Court in Aberdeen. Grandma Helen died on May 21st in the same year at the age of 58.
During the late 1860's the family moved to the Biker area of Newcastle where a son called John was born. In the 1871 census Euphemia and the children (minus Grace, who must have died) were living at 62 Smithies Street in Leeds. Obviously there were family 'issues' insofar as the father John was not living with them. It gets worse !(What follows next may have been posted before, but I'll repeat it now).
In the 1881 census, Euphemia (aka 'Jane Reed') was in Wakefield prison. She was convicted of stealing a pair of boots, and sentenced to 3 months 'hard labour' on March 31st at Dewsbury, and was released on June 22nd. This seems not to have been her first conviction. Her prison record describes her as 5'1", with brown hair, with a scar on her forehead and right arm, and able to read. During this time, Margaret was living at Stocksbank, Mirfield, caring for her siblings Euphemia and John. There was also a girl lodging with them.
Euphemia died on August 6th 1885 after falling out of a bedroom window at 10 Stainburn Square 'whilst in a state of intoxication' (according to the death certificate).Clearly The Old House at Home may have much to answer for...
John Mackenzie senior died on 23rd May 1899, at 31 East Street. Interestingly, the death was registered by Margaret, who was with him at the time of death.
So what do we make of this? At the time of his death John had another family, but Margaret still cared enough to be there. Did he leave because of Euphemia's obviously 'wayward' nature or what? But whatever the case, he stayed in the same area as his estranged family. A mystery....
Gary's researching of all this has been truly amazing ! We owe him a big vote of thanks. As I said earlier, in the next post I'll enter the story of Hector Mackenzie. Watch this space !
But I'll end with a strange little note. In previous posts I've mentioned our Finnish/Siberian ancestry - which extends further into Mongolia and China. As a child I was always obsessed by northern Russia and Mongolia - I even had areas where I played in Belle Isle which I designated by names like Noyava Zemlya (which is an island in arctic Russia) and inner and outer Mongolia. This is a curious kind of genetic echo. But equally odd is that I have been interviewed (unsuccessfully) twice for jobs in Aberdeen, and once for a job in Dalkeith - places where the Mackenzies and Reids did live and marry. Weird I calls it !
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What a brilliant story Gary has unearthed. Sounds like Stainburn sq. was a bit of a rum place to say the least, illeagal drinking, death what next.
Some of my great grandparents on my mums side came from Aberdeenshire. They came to Leeds to run or manage a paper mill.
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Hi Paul, nice to hear from you once again, I think over the last few years we have all contributed to the unfolding of the Crowther story, its good to get other peoples different takes on our own thoughts as to how we piece together the info that we have uncovered to give us a clearer picture of events.
I was of the opinion that John was missing from the 1871 Census because he was also in Prison! however I have no proof that that was the case, but given the fact that he is also absent from the 1881 and 1891 Census perhaps he had become separated from his wife.
I was unable to find John in the 1881 & 1891 Census years, has anyone actually found his entry for those years ?
John MacKenzie died at the home of Hannah Godfrey, she was the Daughter of George Crowther (see the Will) This is the Hannah Gallagher (First marriage) and Godfrey (second Marriage).
She was still living at 31 East Street in the 1901 Census.
When you refer to Johns other family, have you found some new info ?
Regards and happy new Year to everyone, Gary.
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I forgot where I found the John info. It may be wrong.
Anyway, Hector Mackenzie. Hector is a common Mackenzie clan name. His discharge paper says he was born at Lochbroom in Rosshire. Lochbroom is a former Parish on the seawater Loch Broom - on the opposite side from Ullapool. However, his paper also mentions the town of Tain - which is nowhere near Loch Broom. However, it is near Urray - a settlement near the Black Isle - a peninsula in the Moray Firth which is the ancestral home of the Mackenzie clan. A hector was born to Donald and Margaret mackenzie on 4th April 1772 - and he is the only one who fits our Hector. Two Donald Mackenzies were born in the same parish in 1739 - so one of them was probably Hector's dad.
In December 1794, Hector joined the 133rd Foot - a recruiting regiment. He was then assigned to the 42nd Highland Regiment - the famous 'Black Watch'. This is odd, as there was already a mackenzie regiment in the army - the Seaforth Highlanders, who actually wore the mackenzie tartan. The discharge paper shows he served 283 days in the West Indies, which means he saw action against the french at St' Lucia and St. Vincent.
I'm now just repeating the stuff Gary's amazing research has turned up... Suffice it to say, hector was invalided out of the army in 1816, after receiving a would in the side - probably at the Battle of Toulouse in 1814. His papers describe him as 5'7", with fair hair and fair complexion, and blue eyes.
After leaving the army, he ended up working as a porter in Aberdeen, where he married Helen Monro in 1833, at the age of 58. She was the daughter of James Monro - 'coffee merchant's labourer'. he eventually drew his army pension, and died of 'infirmity' at Aberdeen in 1847. I will try to attach the copy of his discharge paper, and the regimental record for the Black Watch during Hector's time in it. It's likely that Hector was at all the places listed. Congratualtions to Gary for uncovering this stuff. One aside - from me - is that in the 1745 Jacobite rebellion, the Mackenzie clan had divided loyalty. The rebel faction actually laid waste to Monro clan territories, and burned Foulis castle
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I couldn't upload the stuff, so I'll have to enter the regimental record by hand, next time.
Paul
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Oops. Sorry, Hector married Helen in 1830 (as I said in a previous post) not 1833.
I think that James Reid - Euphemia's dad was married to someone called Beveridge. Maybe Gary can confirm that.
I'll do the regimental thing next time.
Paul.
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Hi Paul,
I think on one of the Certificates it does state that James Reid was married to a Beveridge, this may be the same Beveridge that was born at Dysart, but I didn't go too much into that Family.
Hector was not injured at Toulouse, he seems to have got the injury while his unit was stationed at Kilkenny in Ireland, so I have only three options 1) injured in some brawl with another soldier, 2) injured in a training accident, or 3) injured in some encounter with hostile locals ? this injury prevented him from deploying with his unit to the Battle of Waterloo : (
Hope this helps,
Regards Gary.
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I have just noticed that in the book "To Prove I'm Not Forgot" by Sylvia Barnard ( a book about Beckett street Cemetery) there is a reference on page 94 to the incident with George Crowthers Swing Boat, the child who died is mentioned and a brief description of the events, however George is not mentioned by name. Strange I have read this book many times and have just noticed that a part of our family history is contained within its covers!
Regards to all, Gary.
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Fantastic postings, who needs to read a book- its taken me a while to read all of them.
I dont have any connection mores the pity. Well Done ;D
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Hi all
I am helping a friend with his Crowther tree and have a poser that I wondered whether anyone would have any suggestions about. His family have several family photo's which have been handed down of fairgrounds and one has Crowthers written above a large fairground attraction. Amongst other things on the stand it has a large wooden elephant with a sign below saying 'Basham and Kelly'. I can find no connection in my friends tree so far though
When I googled 'Crowthers and fairgrounds' and saw this thread I got quite excited until I discovered the Crowther fairground references all seemed to be people from Leeds. We are awaiting certs at the moment but I'm pretty sure that this family originated in Barnsley and Huddersfield and I can't find any connection to the Leeds ones. Also, the closest I have got to a fairground connection so far is mechanics and a traction engine driver. Without reading the whole thread, non of the names and dates of people mentioned on here seem to tie up either. So is it a coincidence and there were actually two Yorkshire Crowther families who were fairground people!!
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Hi all,
I am the new owner of Wait and See, the Showmans road locomotive. I have been trying to find out any history regarding the original owners Crowther and Johnson.
Hope someone can help with my enquiries my contact number is 07597037209.
Many thanks
Jack
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Benny9
I saw at the bottom of your reply about the Crowther shooting gallery "Johnson, Crowther, Sykes showman and travellers 1800's onward of Leeds and surrounding area. Also Bunting, Bosomworth and Palliser".
Can I ask what you mean by that? My ancestor, William Palliser, was apparently working a shooting gallery at a fairground in Leeds in 1871 and I'm wondering now if he was working with the Crowthers....
Thank you for any help you can give
S
Hi wood_gnome
Could well be related, my greatgreatgrandad was a Robert Crowther bn 1862 to George and Sarah Ann Crowther, mar Ann Eliza Stewart in 1885 in Leeds. This Robert is down on his daughters (another Sarah Ann my greatgran) marriage cert as showman. I don't know about his other children I have not gone that way yet. My dad who grew up on the fairs for a few years at the start of his life says that he remembers visiting a Bob Crowther but he can't remember if he was any relation. My Crowthers were all from central Leeds from Mabgate, Stainburn sq, High st, Weaver sq, East st. I have not found them anywhere else yet apart from on showgrounds but then not too far from Leeds. It would be good to hear if you have any other info on your Crowthers and see if there is a connection. Hope this info helps you cheers BEN
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Hi,
I am the new owner of "Wait and See", Crowther and Johnson Burrell Showmans Engine, I was wondering if anyone had any information on the engine, or the history.
Kind Regards
Jack
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Well it has been a couple of years and i hope my Crowther relative are ok. I have had a look recently on ancestry to see if any further info has appeared on our family. I found very little new unfortunately maybe we were so thorough first time. I did find a bit on Azubah Johnson who married Ben Crowther. I think her family is from Lincolnshire as there are alot of that name in east Lincolnshire. The name means desolation or wasting. It comes from the Jewish community that was chased put of Lincoln in the 12-13c. Some of her siblings are born out that way .
And Wait and See the traction engine once owned buy Herbert Johnson and Joe Crowther is being refurbished maybe for next year.
Cheers.