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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Flintshire => Topic started by: paulawilder1 on Sunday 03 August 08 10:57 BST (UK)
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I'd like birth or baptism information for Elizabeth Higginson, born abt 1843 in Hopes Place, as well as for Ann "Higginson" b. 1777 in Eccleston, and Hannah "Higginson" (born Hopes Place 1799)
I've traced my Higginson ancestors back to Hopes Place -- my great great great great aunt (not sure how many greats) Elizabeth Higginson was born about 1843 to Mary Higginson (b. 1819 in "Boughton" -- could be Broughton? or "Great Boughton") and Richard Higginson (b. 1819) ("Railway Engine Driver") from "Cheshire". The record says their eldest daughter, Elizabeth ("dressmaker") was born in abt 1843 in Hopes Place, Flintshire, Wales, while her brother Samuel was born in 1845 in Christleton (not far away).
I found the Wales 1841 Census places a "20" year old Richard Higginson ("farm labourer") in Hopes Place, with a "60" year-old Ann Higginson ("farmer") (b. 1777), along with a 14 year old John Jones ("farm laborer" so the farm seems to belong to Ann Higginson) (but is she mother of Richard, or a grandmother? And who is John Jones?).
Ten years later -- Ann Higginson, now "74" is still in Hopes Place, listed as "visitor" and "mother-in-law" and the rest of the inhabitants are Jones's. The head of the family is listed as Samuel Jones, and his wife, Elizabeth (a different Elizabeth) is presumably Ann Higginson's daughter. John Jones (now 24) shows up at head of the farm right next door, "Copse farm" or "Cofre farm", it says he was born in Dodleston.
There is also a Hannah Higginson, married to a (different) Richard Higginson showing up on the 1871 census in Bretton Village, very close to Hopes Place, whose birth entry says she was born at Hopes Place (about 1799).
I'd love to know who Hannah Higginson's parents were as well, it might clear up the relationships up.
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Hi There......
I cannot find the baptism for RICHARD HIGGINSON born c1819, but I have found the baptism of a ELIZABETH HIGGINSON born 26th April 1820, and baptised 19th May 1820. Her parents were RICHARD and HANNAH nee MITCHELL.....
Richard is described as a farmer, from Bretton Hall. These are the only Higginsons in the Parish Registers (Baptisms) 1811-1820.
Hannah Mitchell was baptised 2nd June 1800 Father Peter and mother Hannah nee Reynolds . Peter was a farmer from Broughton
I am afraid I cannot help with later baptisms
Not sure if this helps or not !!
Regards
JeannieR
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Dear Jeannie, thank you so much for responding, that is very interesting indeed, I'm not sure quite how it fits it, but it must fit in somehow! Hahah. Thank you so much.
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Paula.....
Have you considered that Ann/ Hannah Higginson, are one in the same person ?
One of my ancestors was Hannah, but in a couple of census she was Ann.
Also, The 1841 census is notorius for getting peoples ages wrong. Adults over 15, mostly had there ages rounded up or down by five years sometimes more.
Did your Higginson family move to West Derby ? ,on the 1851 census, there is a Samuel Jones who is a 19 year old lodger living with the family.
I have also found a marriage for a Richard Higginson to a Mary Ann Duggin, which took place in Liverpool / registered Sept qtr 1841 / vol 20 page 178
Regards
Jeannie
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Hi Jeannie -- that marriage could possibly give me a clue! How were you able to get that info? Always when I look up marriages in those books it tells me that such and such name was married, but not who they got married to! The date is good, they need to be married before 1843 when their first child (Elisabeth) is born.
Yes, they did move to West Derby, that is the family. The Samuel Jones living with them on the 1851 England census is definitely some kind of clue, part of what got me going on this whole Jones theory. I think he is Ann Higginson's grandson, and could have moved with his Uncle Richard and family to Liverpool. Also there is a Betsy Higginson living next door. (but she is from Cumbeland...)
Meanwhile, I have considered that Ann and Hannah could be the same person, but they are both listed on the 1841 census -- it is even more clear in 1851 they are different - the 1851 Wales census shows Hannah Higginson age 50 living with husband Richard Higginson in Bretton Village, meanwhile Ann Higginson, 74, Widow" lives with her daughter Elisabeth, and son-in-law Samuel Jones 47 fr. Saltney, and all their children. The older Ann could be Hannah's mother in law, or... even sister in law -- Hanna's husband Richard and Ann both came from "Eccleston" -- or perhaps Higginsons married Higginson and they are all cousins... since Hannah was born at Hopes Place.
But... what is Hopes Place? I was assuming it was the name of one farm, and one family -- it is still there - on Google I can see it. Boy I sure would love to be able to fly to Wales right now and go poking my head about!
Oy, my head hurts!
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Hi Paula.....
Sorry that I haven't contacted you sooner. Housework really hampers everything
First of all, I think the marriage I gave you for Richard Higginson to Mary Ann Duggin, is incorrect . Mary Higginson never uses Ann, as part of her christian name. I found Mary Ann Duggin, on the 1841 census , living at Bolton le Moor.
There was no mention of the name, at all in Flintshire.
However, I found the marriage of Richard Higginson to MARY PRICE, which took place at the Church of Our Lady and St Nicholas and St Ann. It was Registered in the March quarter of 1842 at Liverpool in volume 20 page 212. I am sure that this is the correct marriage. If you do obtain the marriage certificate, it will give both fathers names, there occupations, and their abode. There were usually two witnesses, which may be siblings.......
The marriage of SAMUEL JONES and ELIZABETH HIGGINSON took place at Hawarden May 5th 1824 This confirms that she was Ann's daughter. However, I cannot find any baptism for her, and I have the Parish records (most) upto 1820. I do not think this lady, could be your Richard's sister. The age difference is too great..........
These are the other HIGGINSON baptism's just in case they become useful.
James BAYLEY Higginson. Base born son of Joseph Higginson of Bretton Hall, and Esther BAYLEY. born August 29th 1808, baptised September 16th 1808
John EVANS Higginson. Base born son of John Higginson of Bretton , and Susannah EVANS . born February 24th 1808, baptised February 28th 1808
William EVANS Higginson. Base born son of John Higginson of Bretton , and Susannah Evans. Born July 26th 1809, baptised August 13th 1809.
If you can bear with me about a week, I shall send for some later Parish Records, and see if I can find any thing more for you. I need then any way.
I think that if you send for Elizabeth's birth certificate, (1843) it will confirm to you her mothers maiden name, and then you can obtain her parents marriage certificate. It will be money well spent.
Kind Regards
Jeannie
PS. Try this site, if your family lived in Liverpool, you will find it very useful, and it is free. You will find Samuel's marriage to Rachel on it.
www.lancashirebmd.org.uk
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Oh Jeannie, I can't thank you enough. I'm thrilled to have this information!! Thank you!
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P.S. Thank you again for the link to the Liverpool record site. I found something so interesting and shocking on that site! I discovered that my great Grandmother Rachel Boote Cowdell (née Higginson) had actually been married before! Her 1901 marriage record to Edward Cowdell showed her as Rachel B. Croker (I'd never heard the name Croker!) -- well a bit more searching and I found a marriage record of Rachel B. Higginson to James M. Croker. (We knew she had a secret, but we never knew what it was, I think this was it!)
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Paula.....
Pleased to have been able to help.......
Don't know how long you have been researching your family tree, but I must warn you, that it is addictive !!
Thought I would let you know, that I should receive the Parish registers I have ordered, perhaps early next week. Baptisms 1821-1830, and marriages and burials 1811-1820, so there should be some signs of your Higginson's. Will let you know, as soon as I can.......
Regards
Jeannie
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Thanks, Jeannie! Thanks wonderful.
You are right! It's terribly addictive! It's like the most dangerous drug! Thanks to the site you gave me at Lancashire BMD I've been able to discover many interesting things, like my grandmother's Rachel's grandmother was not the Jane from Ireland shown as "mother" on the census -- but an unfortunate Rachael Bland (of course also a Rachel) who died at age 31 leaving five young children, the youngest not yet 1 year old! The marriage records then tell me the father was remarried to the Jane of the census records at the end of that same year! (I don't blame him with all those children, poor guy) --- it's amazing how much one can read into mere numbers. I love how little tiny clues like a grandchild's middle name matching a maiden name help fit the pieces of the puzzle together. I may need to seek help for addiction.
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Jeanie,
On the 1841 census for Hawarden, I suppose Richard b. 1801 and Hannah Higginson (age 40 on the census) could be the parents of the Richard (age 20) showing up at Hopes Place, as living with Ann Higginson (60). Ann could be the grandmother . What I'm having trouble puzzling through, is that that Hannah (née Mitchel) ought to be the daughter of the earlier owner of Hopes Place, as she is shown as originally from Hopes Place, whereas both her husband Richard (b. 1801) and Ann living there in 1841 are shown to be from "Eccleston". (Did that make any sense?)
I'm curious about the tradition of naming the first daughter Mary, and the second daughter Maria! I've seen this in other places on my tree.
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Hello Paula......
I received the Parish Registers this morning.
The only Higginson's mentioned, were in the Baptisms 1821-1830
William Higginson , born March 2nd 1823, baptised March 28th 1823.
Son of RICHARD HIGGINSON, farmer, and Hannah Mitchell.......
There were no marriages, and no burials 1811-1820.
I am not really sure where to go from here. You could post a enquiry, on the Cheshire board, Richard 1819, may have been baptised at Eccleston. I feel pretty certain, that Richard and Hannah are his parents, and that Ann is his grandmother.....just how to prove it !!
I will have another "dig", and see what I can come up with.
Regards
JeannieR
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Well, I guess I shouldn't be too surprised, you are right I will try Eccleston. Thank you so much for looking!
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Hi. I hope you don't mind me adding a message. But my ancestors were also from Hope's Place, Bretton. A Thomas Bostock. married a Martha Jones in 1815 at Hawarden. it has Thomas as born in Hope's Place. one census says 1793 and another says 1795. Martha born abt 1800 Saltney. I have looked at the Samuel Jones and wondered if he could be Martha's brother. I was told Hope's Place was a group of 5 small holdings. But don't know how true it is. It would be interesting to find out if there is any link with the Jones's. Regards Pam
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Yes, I saw there were some Bostocks in the mix -- I had originally thought Hopes Place was one farm because it appears as such on the 1841 census, but I guess it's more than that, isn't it. Well, I'm still trying to solve the mystery of how my ancestor (Richard Higginson) and his daughter Elizabeth, said to be born in Hope's Place fits into the picture, and who is Anne Higginson, mother or grandmother or...
I'm suspecting there was a bit of intermarriage back and forth with the Joneses, etc.
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Hi Pam and Paula.......
I am pretty certain, that Martha Bostock nee Jones, and Samuel Jones, were brother and sister.........
Martha Jones, baptised at Hawarden , January 8th 1800
Father Thomas Jones, Farmer.Mother Cath Williams. abode Aston
Samuel Jones , baptised at Hawarden , January 10th 1804
Father Thomas Jones, Farmer . Mother Cath Williams , abode Saltney
There are other children. Would you like the details ?
Going back to the Bostocks.
Thomas Bostock, baptised at Hawarden July 2nd 1796
Father William Bostock, Collier. Mother Mary Beavan , abode Pentrobin.
I know that you have the births of three of Thomas and Martha's children, but I now have later Parish Registers, so here goes..........
Samuel, son of Thomas and Martha Bostock , Carter of Hopes Place.
Born October 8th 1821, baptised November 4th
Anne , daughter of Thomas and Martha Bostock ,Small farmer of Hopes Place
Born June 13th 1823 , baptised September 5th
Thomas , son of Thomas and Martha Bostock, Farmer of Bretton
Born April 9th 1827 , baptised August 26th
Martha , daughter of Thomas and Marth Bostock, Farmer of Bretton
Born May 8th 1829 , baptised May 31st.
Their son Thomas, who was born April 1820, was buried August 29th 1820
I have a old map of the area, I will see if I can find "Hopes Place" and see how may buildings were on it.............
Will post seperately re a bit more onformation on Higginson's in the area.
Regards
JeannieR
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Hi Paula........
The only other Higginsons in the area were........
Mary , daughter of William Higginson of Hawarden.
Baptised May 14th 1741
Thomas , son of William Higginson, Glazier of Hawarden
Baptised January 13th 1742
Ann , daughter of William Higginson of Hawarden
Baptised February 3rd 1743
Mary Higginson ,of Hawarden , buried April 21st 1775 (no indication as to who she was )
I do not know if it is of any significance, but I found a marriage which took place at Oswestry, Shropshire, between ............
RICHARD HIGGINSON, and ANN OLIVER November 9th 1796........
Richard Higginson baptised June 25th 1772 at Oswestry
ANN OLIVER , baptised January 11th 1777 at Oswestry.
This date fits in with the birth of Ann Higginson , farmer with Richard Higginson age 20 on the 1841 census........Oswestry is not far away, perhaps she followed her daughter after she was widowed ?
Just a thought !!
Regards
Jeannie
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Oh this is getting rich! Thank you Jeannie. I'm looking forward to what you learn from the map. I think the pieces of the puzzle are coming together. I wonder what brought Ann Higginson to Hopes Place, and I wonder what brought Richard Higginson and Mary Price to Hopes Place to have their daughter Elizabeth in 1843. I notice on the 1841 census there are also Prices living nearbye (but its such a common name).
Is there a birth record for the Richard Higginson married to Hanna Mitchel? I wonder if Anne Oliver is his mother. Owestry... hmmm. I'll have a look on a map and see how close that is to Eccleston.
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Hi Jeannie. Thank you ever so much for the information on Martha Jones, I have Thomas Bostock and her marriage as 30/4/1815. Witnesses James Davies & Thomas Barber at Hawarden. But no info on Father's names or ages. I would be intersted in any further Jones's or Bostock's you might find. But there is no hurry, Pam
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This date fits in with the birth of Ann Higginson , farmer with Richard Higginson age 20 on the 1841 census........Oswestry is not far away, perhaps she followed her daughter after she was widowed ?
Hi Jeannie, I don't think so, in 1841 Wales census she and Richard Higginson are on Hopes Place farm alone first, and a (John?) Jones is there (age 14) as farm help, I think. In 1851 she is there and the Jones'es are there all together.. But the Jones seem to have come from elsewhere.
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Pam........
Thomas Jones and Catherine Williams were married 10th February 1799
Thomas gave his abode as Mancot, and Cath gave hers as Aston.
Catherine Williams was baptised 17th October 1773
Apart from Martha and Samuel, Their only other child was Elizabeth.
Baptised 13th January 1802 , living at Saltney.
William Bostock married Mary Beavan 9th April 1792.
John/16th September 1792
William / 23rd February 1794
THOMAS / 2nd July 1796
Samuel / 19th August 1798 (210 years ago today )
Edward / 7th December 1800.....buried 10th December
William Bostock married Ellinor Hewitt 29th June 1767
John / 2nd October 1768 / abode Bretton
WILLIAM / 4th march 1770 / abode Ewloe
Jane / 2oth October 1771 / abode Ewloe
Ellinor Bostock was buried 25th October 1771
I am sure I can help with other info, so just contact me, when you are ready.
Kind Regards
Jeannie
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Paula.......
You are right . Ann always states born Eccleston, as does her daughter Elizabeth........
I have tried everything I know to find out about Elizabeth's birth, with no joy I am afraid........
Try this site
www.cheshire.gov.uk
They may be able to look up Elizabeths birth records, for a small charge. It may be worth it to you, to knock down your brick wall.......
I am also wondering who Joseph and John Higginson, the boys who were named as fathers to the illigitemate children were ? They certainly were not born in the area, and did not marry there either.
If I come across anything else, I will contact you
Kind regards
Jeannie
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Hi Jeannie.
Thank you ever so much on the information on Martha Bostock nee Jones. I have had a look on the 1841 census and there is a Thomas Jones born 1781 wife Catherine 1781. Children Thomas 1811. Hannah 1816. Eliza 1821. and William 1821. They are at Shepherd's house. Saltney. The dates differ on the 1851 there is no Thomas snr. and Catherine is 1770. which is closer to the baptism date of Catherine Williams. daughter Hannah is listed as 1814. and there is a Thomas Sharples b1844 Chester with them he is listed as visitor.
On the 1861 & 1871 Hannah is the wife of Abraham Sharples 1808 of Preston. Lancashire. and they have children Abraham1842. Hannah 1838. Sarah 1840. and Thomas 1844. They are at Shepherd's Tce. Saltney. Now Thomas Sharples 1844. son of Hannah Jones actually married Ellen Bostock. daughter of Thomas & Martha Bostock. i was wondering if you could possibly check the births of the children of the above Thomas & Catherine Jones. Especially Hannah 1814/16. as there could be some skeletons in the closet. I hope you don't mind me asking. Pam
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Pam.......
The reason I missed the following births, is because , mum was CATH Williams, on the baptisms of Martha , Samuel and Elizabeth......She is CATHERINE on these ::)
Mary Jones , daughter of Thomas Jones , farmer, and Catherine Williams.
Baptised September 29th 1805. Abode, Saltney.
Catherine Jones , daughter of Thomas Jones, farmer and Catherine Williams.
Baptised September 27th 1807. Abode , Saltney.
Thomas Jones , son of Thomas Jones , farmer and Catherine Williams.
Born September 7th 1809, baptised October 1st 1809. Abode Saltney
Sarah Jones , daughter of Thomas Jones , farmer and Catherine Williams
Born October 17th 1811, baptised November 20th 1811. Abode Saltney
HANNAH JONES , daughter of Thomas Jones, farmer and Catherine Williams.
Born October 21st 1813, baptised December 3rd 1813. Abode Saltney
William Jones , son of Thomas Jones , farmer and Catherine Williams.
Born March 5th 1816, baptised April 19th 1816. Abode Saltney.
I cannot find a Eliza Jones, with the same parentage. Perhaps she was a niece?..........
Re ages in 1841. For some stupid reason, ages of any one of over 15 years old was rounded up or down by +/- 5 years and I have found some times more.
People could not read and write, did not celebrate birthdays, and did not read newspapers. Apart from Christmas and Easter. every day was the same, and no way to mark the passage of time
Of course I do not mind you asking, It makes buying the Parish Registers worth while, and keeps my brain cells working......and you have found a new connection with Paula.....Super !! I am going to add to my library , this week , possibly marriages and burials 1821-1830.
In the meanwhile, hope this helps.
Regards
Jeannie
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Hi Jeannie,
There is a Richard Higginson b 1811 in Hanmer, Flintshire with parents John and Mary. Is Hanmer close by?
I think the Ann-Richard pair you found in Owestry could indeed be my Richard Higginson brn. 1819 's parents, but ... is there also a birth record for Richard Higginson b. 1819?
Well I have looked at every Higginson born in Cheshire, and find many Samuels, but not a single Richard.
The only 1819 Richard Higginson on familysearch.org is one born in Prees, Shropshire, but I fear this is someone else. :(
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Hi Jeannie.
Thanks for the last Info.You are a Gem!! It has confirmed my suspicion We now have a Cousin marrying a Cousin, I can now add the rest of the Jones's to my tree, I made some notes yesterday but didn't want to do anything until I knew they were connected. Now it will be more hunting for the Jones's. Thanks again. Pam
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My Pleasure Girls.......
Please don't hesitate to ask, if I can help further.
I have sent for some more Parish Records, which just may answer some more of your questions. They may take a week to arrive, as it is a holiday over this week-end.....
Best wishes
JeannieR
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Hi Jeannie.
I am still confused with the Thomas Bostock. On the 1841 census It has my Thomas Bostock born 1793. Flintshire only his name is reversed. wife Martha etc. Then in 1851 it has his birth as 1796. Hope's Place. Flintshire.
But there is also another Thomas Bostock which I can't find on the 1841. But in 1851 he is born 1799 Hawarden. With wife Ann born 1783. They are at Drury Lane. Pentrobin. and in 1861 he is listed as born 1798. On his own. This one is the son of William & Mary Beavan. baptised 2/7/1796.
I know its a Holiday weekend (hopefully fine). But could you have a check for any Thomas Bostock's. other than the son of William & Mary. at some stage. It's getting confusing. Regards Pam
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It could get doubly confusing in that some of the people (that I have seen marrying Higginsons) have it that they are FROM Bostock...
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Hi Paula.
Bostock the place is in Cheshire. and Hawarden where our lot are from is in Flintshire. But it not far from the Cheshire Border. I do know the area as My Grandmother's sister lived in Saltney. But when we used to visit her in the 60's. I never thought I would be doing the family history. My Dad's paternal side were from Cheshire also. Pam
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Pam......
There was only one Thomas Bostock baptised at Hawarden, and he was the son of William and Mary Beavan. 2/7/1796. I know that his age varies on the 1841 and 1851 census, but that was quite normal. I am sure he is "yours"
I cannot find Thomas and Ann, on the 1841 census. How frustrating !!
There were no Bostocks at all, at Hawarden before William Bostock married Ellinor Hewitt in 1767..........
However, I have found a marriage, which took place at Chester St Mary, on 18/7/1824 , Between a Thomas Bostock and a ANN WAINWRIGHT . I have found a baptism for a Ann Wainwright , November 24th 1784 abode PENTROBIN.........I t could be that this Thomas , may be a cousin of your Thomas ?
I will try and check out William Bostock c1746, He mayhave had a brother, and the mystery Thomas is his son .......Hope this is not too confusing ?
I have a similar problem. My William Podmore, married 1743 at Hawarden . He was not born there. (The reason I have so many Parish Registers )
However, since I bought the last couple of PR's, I may have had a break through........A Ann Podmore , marries a Jonathan Sharratt in 1810. I have no idea who she was, all the Podmores in Flintshire, are descended from my William. I have his will, and he names all his children , and there spouses. No Ann's. I have found on the 1851 census, that she came fron Acton by Nantwich, which is about 20 miles away . I think I have sorted my problem . I have found a baptism for a William Podmore in 1699, a bit earlier than I thought, but it is looking good. Ann may have been a neice who came to work for him ( he was a yeoman farmer ) and found love !!
I will see what I can do over the week end. Our village gala has been cancelled , because of the weather !!
Regards
JeannieR
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Okay - no trace of my Higginsons in the Cheshire parish records as far as I can tell, but I've discovered something interesting -- that Richard Jones, b. 1844 fr Saltney, (son of Samuel Jones and Elizabeth Higginson) living in Hopes Place on the 1851 census, married his cousin Kate (Catharine) Higginson, b. 1849 in Liverpool.
They married 1870 in Liverpool.
Catherine is the daughter of my mysterious Richard Higginson (living with Anne Higginson at Hopes Place in 1841), and while Catherine was born in Liverpool, her older sister Elizabeth was the one born in Hopes Place (who started me on this whole line of inquiry).
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Further discovery! The Samuel Jones, born 1832, shown on the 1841 census as 9 yr old son of Richard and Hannah Higginson, in Saltney, is indeed the same person found living with my Higginsons by 1851 in Toxteth Park Liverpool. These Jones and Higginsons certainly were close.
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I know I am joining the Higginson discussion long after everyone else has moved on.Richard Higginson ( 1798) and Hanah Higginson (1800) were the parents of Maria Higginson( 1823) married George Evans who is our relative. Her sister Rebecca (1836) married WR Doughty. Eleanor Russell
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paulawilder1 get in touch with me, i know quite a bit about Hopes Place, Bretton
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Hi Paula.....
However, I found the marriage of Richard Higginson to MARY PRICE, which took place at the Church of Our Lady and St Nicholas and St Ann. It was Registered in the March quarter of 1842 at Liverpool in volume 20 page 212. I am sure that this is the correct marriage. If you do obtain the marriage certificate, it will give both fathers names, there occupations, and their abode. There were usually two witnesses, which may be siblings.......
Dear Jeannie R - I don't know if you are still on the boards, this discussion dates back a while, however, ancestry has finally added the Liverpool marriage original dox, and I have the record for the 1842 Mary Price - Richard Higginson marriage you first found for me. Here I learn that Richard Higginson's father was Joseph Higginson, Farmer, and Mary Price was daughter of Thomas Price, labourer. However Richard Higginson's profession is given as Carter, while I would have expected the record to say 'railway engine driver" as it does on the 1851 census - it puts a doubt in my mind about this being the right Richard Higginson. I have to wonder whether the couple would really have gotten married in Liverpool in 1842, if their first child were born in Hope's Place in 1843, and their second child in Christleton in 1845. Their third (recorded) child is born 1849 in Liverpool, which suggests they are not in Liverpool until some time around 1849, and it would have made more sense for Richard and Mary to be married in the region of Bretton. But perhaps if he were a carter then later a railway engine driver, he would have been going back and forth quite a lot ? In any case, it if is indeed the correct marriage record - the Joseph Higginson is the father -- I suppose Richard could be one of these illegitimate children you refered to earlier ?
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paulawilder1 get in touch with me, i know quite a bit about Hopes Place, Bretton
Hi Ricko - are you still on the boards ?
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Hi, I have just happened upon this thread whilst looking for Hopes Farm. I am in the UK and my husband has Richard Higginson as a great great great grandfather and Samuel Jones as a great great grandfather. I have a copy of the 1851 census and your research makes things fall into place. We will have to call in and look at the farm on the way to see rellies in Denbighshire. I am very grateful to see this as I do not get much time to do family research. It is late here so I will come back and have a more detailed look at the thread. Thanks
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Dear Nozzy, I am so delighted to hear from you. I realise there are a lot of different Richard Higginsons and Samuel Jones living not far one from the other. Would you like access to my family tree on ancestry.com ? I have done years of research since I first posted this notes here, and have been assisted by genealogical historians in Chester (notably by Anna Price). Do you think your husbands Richard Higginson and Samuel Higginson fit into this scenario somehow ?
The elderly Ann Higginson one sees on the 1841 and later censii at Hopes Place, was born Ann Leyfield (1776-1861), and is the widow of Joseph Higginson (farmer from Eaton, born abt 1750). Their daughter Elizabeth Higginson, married Samuel Jones (b. 1804) and their family occupies Hopes Place, while their youngest son, Richard Higginson (railway engineer) 1818-1860 married a first cousin, Mary Price (1818-1868). (Mary is the daughter of Thomas Price and Catherine Leyfield). To make things more incestuous, after a terrible train accident caused the untimely death of engineer Richard Higginson (in 1860), leaving Mary Price widowed and caring for a large family, Mary remarried her husband's own nephew who had been living with them in Liverpool : Samuel Jones (born in Saltney, 1834), -- son of Elizabeth Higginson and Samuel Jones. At Hopes Place in 1870 and 1880, one sees the widowed Samuel Jones, has returned to the farm, and has a young son in tow - William (S?) Jones, born 1863 in Liverpool. I cannot find trace of this child, whom I assume is the son of Mary Price and Samuel Jones after the 1880 census. I think the 1890 census for that part of Wales was lost ?
The Richard Higginson (1797-1898) one sees living nearby to Hopes Place, married to Hannah Mitchell, is the youngest brother of Joseph Higginson (farmer from Eaton).
I have all sorts of documents ... as me for more if your husband is interested. Very best wishes,
Paula
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Very pleased to get your reply. I am now sure, after seeing your evidence in the thread, Samuel Jones and both Richard Higginsons are the same as in our tree. It confirmed what I'd thought. I am the researcher in the family, my husband Stephen is interested, but he is not in the best of health and is not the best researcher! So it goes through me. I like doing it, but it's the time I lack. We have latterly focussed, when we've had the time, on his surname which is from Germany and Denmark. I was looking back at the contents of the family research box files as my daughter wanted ideas of family names (she's expecting another baby), so that set me off! Hope the following ancestor 'list' helps: Samuel Jones> Richard > William Alexander>Olive (Steve's mother)>Stephen Arthur (my husband). Our Richard Jones (horsekeeper) married Kitty/Kate Higginson (father Richard Higginson). So how do you fit in and whereabouts are you - in the US I presume (we have been to the US and Canada a number of times)? Steve was born in St Asaph, Wales and brought up in Liverpool from age 3. We live in Yorkshire. Steve has cousins from his father's side around the St Asaph area, we visit them and we will now be able to go to see them via the farm, now we know for sure where the Higginson/Jones were!
I firstly need to read all the threads properly and collate our evidence and attach copies to you (if helpful), however my grandson is staying so no time really and should really be doing my tax return this week :( I will also be busy tomorrow, so don't hold your breath! I would love access to your tree, that would be great, but at the moment I don't have the paid membership, I stopped when I wasn't getting time to use it. So I may pay a couple months if I need to?
Thanks and TTFN
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Oh that is so cool ! Your Kate Higginson who married Richard Jones, horsekeeper, is the older sister of Samuel Higginson who married Rachel Boote. They had Rachel Boote-Higginson who married Edward Cowdell and left for British Columbia in 1911 from Liverpool. Their daughter, my maternal grandmother, Lillian Cowdell was born in Toxteth Park in 1901, spent some of her childhood in Vancouver, attended the University of British Columbia, then moved east to do a graduate degree at Harvard Radcliff, she married my grandfather at Harvard (Paul W Gates) they lived out their long lives in Ithaca, NY. I was born and raised mostly in California, but am now living in central western France (have lived in France for seven years). Your husband and I would be something like 3rd cousins once removed. How fun ! Have you seen the inscriptions for the Jones family in the Toxteth Park Cemetery ?
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Hi Paula. I received your message last night regarding the Headstones at Broughton Churchyard. Gee!!! It must be ages ago since I sent that to you. I hadn't been on here for a long time until the recent messages have come up, You asked if I still have the same e mail address. Yes. I do. Going back to the beginning of the post.s I did find my Thomas Bostock wasn't Baptised in Hawarden at all. He was Baptised at Doddleston. Regards Pam
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Paula, you know so much more than me! S has a lot of rellies that were born and/or lived in Toxteth Park. I have not had time to collate anything regarding what I know yet. So where are you in France (and why?)? We've been to France a lot over the years. We have only seen S's immediate family's headstone (I have a photo) we shall have to get over to Liverpool! I must tell him I've found a cousin (he's just gone to bed - he'll be reading). How fascinating to know how we all connect. Lillian sounds quite something! We have a photo of Kitty/Kate Higginson - there's also some other photos, which I could find. I just thought, we have cousins in Vancouver, descended from Richard Jones. He had a daughter called Louisa who emigrated to Canada in the 30s, she married a Thomas Bamber from Lancashire, they had Irene and she had Neil who's now 60 something and a retired vet in BC. Must go to bed!
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I knew about Louisa Bamber ! I traced her to Vancouver through documents. There are also descendants of Rachel-Boote Higginson still living in Vancouver - I had asked them if they had been aware of Louisa and her family - and did not get a straight answer. I would love to see a picture of Kate if you have it. I have no pictures of Samuel Higginson. I have found newspaper articles described the horrible death of Richard Higginson - November 1860.
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PS I am living in France because I married a Frenchman ! Seven years of wedded bliss :)
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Amazing you know about Lou Bamber, she seems to have been a character, a strong woman. S thinks he met her when he was a child. We also have a photo of her. S is amazed about the connection! I am going to endeavour to do some collating this weekend. We realised what we had always called 'the cemetery in Smithdown Road' is called Toxteth Park Cemetery.Have you actually been there? Have you been to Liverpool, Cheshire and/or N Wales? I would be interested in anything you have including the newspaper articles described the horrible death of Richard Higginson in 1860.
Congratulations on the wedded bliss!
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Hi Nozzy, I have not been to ANY of these places. I have spent years looking at documents concerning Liverpool on line, and have pictures of my grandmother in Liverpool, but I have never been there. On the other hand I did live in London for one year when I was eleven years old, because my father took a sabatical year, and I went to a stage school in Wimbledon (Associated Arts School) run by Letty Littlewood. I have a great desire to see Liverpool, and all those places. I would also love to see Chester, and Bretton, and Hope's Place, etc !
P.S. I sent you a personal message.
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P.S. My grandmother's youngest brother (Norman Cowdell) remained in Vancouver, and his daughter tells me that she remembers her father talking about “Aunt Lou”, she has a childhood memory of meeting her, and vaguely remembers some mention of Irene. She also thinks her Dad kept in touch with Aunt Lou until she died.
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That's amazing! I could tell the cousin in Vancouver i.e. Lou's grandson, but he doesn't seem interested after saying he was previously?! Have sent him family history stuff years ago, but never got any kind of response, so didn't bother again. He is a Mormon and I thought they were interested in that sort of thing and it also seems a shame when he is a horse vet :(
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Hello Paula
In the quest for Higginsons your correspondents have already provided a lot of answers but I wondered if you might like to take a look at the Higginsons on my website? I've filled in a lot of entries from the transcribed parish registers for Hawarden and nearby areas, presently avoiding the Wrexham area registers. I noted there was some confusion between Higgins and Higginson in Trelawnyd - my ref. 273.
If you think there might be something useful Wrexham way I could fill in more.
Best wishes
Jill Rose
www.clwydsurnames.org.uk
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You may already have this one but just in case you haven't:
Holt
20 Jul 1817 mar by Banns of
Richard HIGGINSON (farmer) & Hannah MITCHEL (sig. MITCHELL) sp
Wits: Owen DOD, Wm JONES
Jill
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Hello Jill, I would love to take a look at your website. Thank you for that. Yes I do have the Higginson-Mitchell marriage. I figure that the Richard Higginson - farmer -who married Hannah Mitchell is an uncle to Richard Higginson- Engine Driver who married Mary Price. I believe R.H farmer is a younger brother of the Joseph Higginson, farmer of Eaton who married Ann Leyfield of Eccleston in Eccleston in 1806 and lived and died at Hopes Place.
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Hi Paula
Just to let you know that 123-reg appear to have resolved their 'outage' and I have now been able to upload the rest of the content for the surname Higginson on my website.
Jill
www.clwydsurnames.org.uk
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Wow, Jill that is a stupendous site ! what a lot of painstaking work went into that ! What a treasure mine. Thank you for sharing this amazing resource. Now I am combing it trying to find a burial and death date for Elizabeth (Higginson) Jones, wife of Samuel Jones (of Hopes Place). She and her husband are still living in the 1881 census (still and Hope's Place) - after that I lose them.
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Paula
Thank you for your kind comments about my website. None of it possible without the hard work of the Clwyd FHS volunteers. I work from their transcribed parish registers. You would need their published Hawarden Volume 26 (Burials 1875-1910) which I haven't got around to yet. However, thought I'd take a quick look for Elizabeth using FindmyPast and found the following:
St. Mary's, Hawarden 9th Dec 1884 bur/o Elizabeth Jones, aged 78, of Hopes Place.
Is the age right for your Elizabeth?
Jill
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and Samuel:
St. Mary's Church, Hawarden
Samuel Jones, aged 88, of Hope's Place, buried 10 September 1892
Jill
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Oh YAY !!! Jill, you found them ! Yes the ages match, and of course "Hope's Place" - I am so delighted to discover that they lived out their lives at Hope's Place. Thank you ever so much !
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Hello paulawilder1,
I thought that I would post on this thread as I lived in Broughton, by Bretton, for many years. I know Bretton well and recall that Hope's Place was a farm there. Even today, Bretton is a tiny hamlet but has been badly altered by commercial building in later years.
I found these references to Hope's Place online:
https://bretton-flintshire.cylex-uk.co.uk/company/d-s-maddock-12967611.html
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-45338149.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bretton,_Flintshire
The Wikipaedia entry gives specific information on Hope's Place Farm, a former Grosvenor Estate Farm.
Jo.
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Thank you Jo. You know, I have seen those pages via google search before, including the picture of the Hope's Place bus stop ! and I am reminded that the gentleman who compiled the wikipedia page for Bretton had been in touch with us here, I think on this very thread. I am sad to learn that commercial development has spoiled the look of the town. That is also destroying the aspect of the tiny town I am living in in France.
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JillRose your site is amazing, what a job you've done, thank you!
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Hello paulawilder1,
I thought that I would post on this thread as I lived in Broughton, by Bretton, for many years. I know Bretton well and recall that Hope's Place was a farm there. Even today, Bretton is a tiny hamlet but has been badly altered by commercial building in later years.
I found these references to Hope's Place online:
Thank you for this Jo, I will have a look. Samuel Jones is my OH gggrandfather
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oops - I make no sense - delete
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I apologise if I posted the information yesterday, not having read the entire thread of this post beforehand. It did strike me that there might be a connection to the Grosvenor family, or estate here. I saw the Richard Higginson was born in Eaton/Eccleston and I think I read that his brother was a farmer in Eaton. That is the seat of The Duke of Westminster and his estate covers much of the lands around there (plus most of Chester amongst other huge holdings of land). Hope's Place Farm was said to be a Grosvenor Estate farm originally, so was this acquired by Richard Higginson due to family connections with the Grosvenor family?
There is an archive for the Grosvenor family which is private and held on the Eaton estate. I don't know whether they will provide information to the people who enquire.
https://www.eatonestate.co.uk/
Jo.