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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (East Riding & York) => Topic started by: bendywendy on Saturday 16 August 08 23:52 BST (UK)
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Hi
Is there any documentation of Migrant Workers, in particular Ag Labs, from Norfolk to Yorkshire. ??? I have connectons with both areas, one I live E. Yorkshire, my GG Grandfather Robert Hall came to Holme on Spalding Moor sometime between 1861 and 1868 from Reepham, Aylsham, Norfolk. He married Ellen St Paul of HOSM and they lived their lives out in HOSM.
How did MW's find the money to travel if not in work or indeed very lttle money??
Did the Poor Law Unions help to relocate the jobless??
Where did they live in the new area??
Was there Organisations like the church that helped folk move to areas for work, be given accommodation and find work???
It fascinates me how folk moved around finding work.
Norfolk was a vast area of Ag Labs and when mechanisation came into being, there was revolts, folk lost their jobs due to new methods of machinery, when it was a case of living hand to mouth normally, :-[ life just got harder so folk had to move on for work.
There is documentation to say that wages in Yorkshire were far better than in Norfolk, also many Norfolk men and families travelled to Bedlington, Northumberland to work in the mines.
Can anyone help please.
Bendywendy
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Hi Bendywendy,
Know this reply is a year after you posted but have only recently started doing my family tree along with an uncle.
Have tracked my grandmothers father's family down to Norfolk and a Robert Ainger Howman (1812) came to Hull after his wife Caroline Tungate (1831) died. He had 3 children at this stage. Whilst in Hull he had two more George J. Howman (1875) and Joseph Howman(1877) - my Great Grandad. In the 1881 Census both George and Joseph have been taken back to Great Ryburgh, however, in the 1891 Census Robert is back in Hull with George, Joseph and daughter Leah (1872 - Great Ryburgh) and a Grandson George H (1890) born in Hull. I presume Leah is his mother.
I haven't as yet been able to track the mother(s) of George or Joseph. If anyone can help with this I would appreciate it.
They were living at 17 Howards Row which I believe was in the Chapman Street area of Hull. It had 20 4 room houses in it and about 300 people occupied these :o (mostly Irish). Just makes you realise how much we have all got today!!
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Hi Rheme
I will sit down later and read your post in more depth and see if I can help in any way. Can you say where you live, it would make it easier to point you in the right direction for further research. I live in E. Yorks.
It took me nearly two years just to track down my GGG Grandfathers baptism let alone his family, the problem with Norfolk is alot of smaller Parish's have not had their registers transcribed and put on the websites, which is the problem I have at present.
Bendywendy
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Hi Rheme
I am having difficulty posting personal messages to your inbox, if you have got my message regarding my email account please contact me. But I will post some info on here for the benefit of others reading this post.
1881 cen @ Great Ryburgh Nfk 1341478 RG11 1984/62 15 www.familysearch.org
Robert Howman Head 45 Ryburgh Ag Lab
Robert Howman son 14 Ryburgh Ag Lab
Leah Howman dau 9 Ryburgh Scholar
George Howman son 6 Hull Scholar
Joseph Howman son 4 ??? Scholar
On Family Search there is a few other Howman born Ryburgh on 1881 census, could be brothers to Robert 45 above.
http://www.origins.org.uk/genuki/NFK/places/r/ryburgh_great/
Click on Baptisms and you will find Howman and Ainger Baptisms listed.
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More info Rheme
www.freereg.org.uk/search
Norfolk Great Ryburgh St Andrew
Marriage Date 16 Aug 1857
Groom Forename Robert Ainger
Groom Surname HOWMAN
Groom Condition Single
Groom Occupation Labourer
Groom Abode Gt Ryburgh
Bride Forename Caroline
Bride Surname TUNGATE
Bride Condition Single
Bride Occupation Labourer
Bride Abode Gt Ryburgh
Groom Father Forename Robert
Groom Father Surname HOWMAN
Groom Father Occupation Labourer
Bride Father Forename James
Bride Father Surname TUNGATE
Bride Father Occupation Labourer
Witness One Christopher FROST
Witness Two Leah HOWMAN
Notes Groom of Full Age; Groom signed his name; Bride of Full Age; Bride signed with an X; Married by Banns
FileNumber 2454
PARENTS OF ROBERT AINGER HOWMAN
Norfolk Great Ryburgh St Andrew
Marriage Date 15 Nov 1819
Groom Forename Robert
Groom Surname HOWMAN
Groom Condition Single
Bride Forename Marianne
Bride Surname UTTEN
Bride Condition Single
Witness One Jonathan BUCK
Witness Two Jonathan PRATT
Notes Groom signed his name; Bride signed with an X; Married by Banns
FileNumber 2454
AND PARENTS OF ROBERT HOWMAN ABOVE AND G/PARENTS OF ROBERT AINGER HOWMAN
Norfolk Great Ryburgh St Andrew
Marriage Date 05 Nov 1793
Groom Forename Peter
Groom Surname HOWMAN
Groom Condition Single
Bride Forename Lydia
Bride Surname AINGER
Bride Condition Single
Witness One Mary BRAY
Witness Two Davy MITCHEL
Notes Bride signed as Liddy; Groom signed with an X; Bride signed her name; Married by Banns
FileNumber 2454
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Hi Bendywendy
Thank you so much for your e-mail I have picked it up. You have given me an extra generation and explanation of where the middle name of Ainger came from, along with the people who attended weddings and witnesses, etc. so now I am sure that the ones I have are correct.
I am currently at work so will post again tonight as have some further info re migrant workers, etc.
An answer to your question re my location - I am in the East Riding.
Funny thing is that one of my sisters moved to Dereham in Norfolk many years ago. It appears that Great Ryburgh is just a few miles from where she lives.
Once again many thanks for your help.
rheme
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www.freereg.org.uk MORE CAN BE FOUND HERE
Norfolk Great Ryburgh St Andrew
Date Of Birth 26 Nov 1793
Baptism Date 01 Dec 1793
Forename Robert
Father Peter HOWMAN
Mother Lydia AINGER
FileNumber 2448
Norfolk Great Ryburgh St Andrew
Baptism Date 09 Jul 1820
Forename George
FatheR Robert HOWMAN
Mother Marianne
Father Occupation Labourer
Notes BT records mothers forename as Mariana
FileNumber 2448
Norfolk Great Ryburgh St Andrew
Baptism Date 04 May 1838
Forename Joseph
Father Robert HOWMAN
Mother Mary Ann
Father Occupation Laborer
FileNumber 2448
Norfolk Great Ryburgh St Andrew
Baptism Date 03 Jan 1836
Robert Ainger (Ainger was his G/mothers maiden name)
Father Robert HOWMAN
Mother Mary Ann (the spelling will differ on documents)
Father Occupation Laborer
FileNumber 2448
Norfolk Great Ryburgh St Andrew
Baptism Date 13 Nov 1866
Robert James
Father Robert Ainger HOWMAN
Mother Caroline
Father Occupation Labourer
Notes Received 9 Mar 1870
FileNumber 2448
Norfolk Great Ryburgh St Andrew
Date Of Birth 13 May 1867
Baptism Date 09 Mar 1870
Forename Charlotte Mary Ann
Father Robert Ainger HOWMAN
Mother Caroline
Father Occupation Labourer
FileNumber 2448
Norfolk Great Ryburgh St Andrew
Baptism Date 13 Apr 1872
Forename Leah
Father Robert Ainger HOWMAN
Mother Caroline
Father Occupation Labourer
FileNumber 2448
Y
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Hi Rheme
Got your message, glad to be of help to you.
Note, check your dates and names thoroughly, with so many Robert's it can get confusing.
The freereg site has loads of your Howman and Ainger listed.
As you live in E. Yorks, depending where in Hull your ancestors were born, the records will be either in Hull Central Library/Archives or The Treasure House, Beverley. Your sister can check the Norfolk records at Norwich Records Office or pay £10 membership for access to Norfolk Family History Soc, Kirkby House, Norwich, both sited very close together.
You mention the names George and Joseph being in Hull with Robert Ainger Howman, could these have been his brothers and not his children, you will find baptisms for same names for children of Robert Ainger Howman.
Census information can be incorrect, someone wrote the details down as they heard them, so not always as it should be spelt or what was meant. Folk were illiterate and could not check the details, they also could not remember their age or where they were born/baptised ??? confusion can become more confusion. Don't take everything as it looks, check and double check.
Everyone needs a helping hand when starting with Family History so I am pleased to have been of help to you. I look forward to your next message.
Bendywendy
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1851 Census
Here is Robert Ainger Howman, note all the spellings - Anger = Ainger, Honnow = Honor, Mary Ann = Marianne, Amey = ?? Amery ??, written as it was said !! ???
Head: HOWMAN, Robert Neighbors 205091
Name Relationship Mar Age Sex Occupation Birthplace
Robert HOWMAN Head M 57 M Ag Lab Gt Ryburgh-Nfk
Mary Ann HOWMAN Wife M 53 F --- Testerton-Nfk
Caroline HOWMAN Daur U 27 F Work On Land Gt Ryburgh-Nfk
Honnow HOWMAN Daur U 23 F Work On Land Gt Ryburgh-Nfk
Robert Anger HOWMAN Son U 15 M Ag Lab Gt Ryburgh-Nfk
Joseph HOWMAN Son U 12 M Ag Lab Gt Ryburgh-Nfk
Leah HOWMAN Daur - 9 F Scholar Gt Ryburgh-Nfk
Amey James HOWMAN GDau - 7 F Scholar Gt Ryburgh-Nfk
George William HOWMAN GSon 3 M --- Thursford-Nfk
Matilda HOWMAN GDau - 1 F --- Gt Ryburgh-Nfk
Address: ---, Walsingham
Census Place: Great Ryburgh Walsingham, Norfolk
PRO Reference: HO/107/1826 Folio: 194 Page: 16 FHL Film: 0207480
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1851 Census
Looks likely this is Caroline Tungate who married Robert Ainger Howman.
Head: TUNGATE, James Neighbors 166297
Name Relationship Mar Age Sex Occupation Birthplace
James TUNGATE Head M 42 M Coal Porter Witton-Norfolk
Charlotte TUNGATE Wife M 42 F --- Strumpshaw-Norfolk
Benjamin TUNGATE Son - 14 M Scholar Bradistone-Norfolk
George TUNGATE Son - 12 M Scholar Strumpshaw-Norfolk
Caroline TUNGATE Daur - 9 F --- Strumpshaw-Norfolk
Charlotte TUNGATE Daur - 7 F --- Strumpshaw-Norfolk
James TUNGATE Son - 3 M --- East Dereham-Norfolk
Address: Rayner's Yard, Norwich
Census Place: Norwich St Julian Norwich, Norfolk
PRO Reference: HO/107/1814 Folio: 246 Page: 28 FHL Film: 0207467
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1851 Census
Looks likely this is the Widowed wife Lydia of Peter Howman (married 1793), most likely Mary (Head) is dau in law, also Widow. Both Paupers :(
Head: HOWMAN, Mary Neighbors 205106
Name Relationship Mar Age Sex Occupation Birthplace
Mary HOWMAN Head W 39 F Pauper Rudham-Nfk
Harriot HOWMAN Daur U 19 F House Servant Gt Ryburgh-Nfk
Charlotte HOWMAN Daur U 14 F House Servant Gt Ryburgh-Nfk
Elizebeth HOWMAN Daur U 12 F Scholar Thursford-Nfk
Lydia HOWMAN Daur - 10 F Scholar Gt Ryburgh-Nfk
Robert HOWMAN Son - 8 M Scholar Gt Ryburgh-Nfk
William HOWMAN Son - 4 M Scholar Gt Ryburgh-Nfk
Henry HOWMAN Son - 2 M --- Gt Ryburgh-Nfk
Lydia HOWMAN --- W 76 F Pauper Gt Ryburgh-Nfk
Address: ---, Walsingham
Census Place: Great Ryburgh Walsingham, Norfolk
PRO Reference: HO/107/1826 Folio: 196 Page: 21 FHL Film: 0207480
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Hi Bendywendy
Firstly can I say a great big thank you for all the help you have given. It is very much appreciated.
The names within the family are being repeated within the different generations and the two sons of Robert Ainger Howman born in Hull – Joseph and George are actual sons and not his brothers. Robert A. did have a brother called Joseph (b. 1839). However, all Joseph’s (b. 1877) grandchildren are still alive - one of which is my dad and another is my uncle who is helping me with this. I am told that at one point he (Joseph) worked on Drypool Bridge and also that whilst away at war was gassed (mustard). I believe he returned from the war, however, died before his time due to the effects of this.
Thank you for your guidance re double checking information and not just accepting it at face value as I can understand how it would be so easy for me to get it wrong.
Joseph married Arabella Buttery from Rillington at St. Marks, Hull in 1905 and George married Louisa Brook at St. Stephens, Hull in 1895.
I have pulled some extracts from publications regarding the farm workers and why/how they migrated to other areas. I hope this puts some meat on the bones for you.
Extracts from Cambridgeshire History – Agriculture and the Labourer
Labourers were in a weak bargaining position due to over-population from which Norfolk was suffering. Wages were usually low and not infrequently paid in the form of goods or food, or the labourer was allowed a small plot of land to raise vegetables and perhaps keep a pig or two.
1820’s and 1830's were a time of low wages within the area because the woollen industry was in a state of rapid decline as the great textile areas of northern England flourished. With alternative employment not readily available, it led to an excess of agricultural workers.
By 1815 the end of the great wars meant many ex-soldiers were unemployed. Grain prices fell and farmers lowered wages. Speculators erected rows of poor cottages and charged exorbitant rents because of the housing shortage.
As the Industrial Revolution hit and mechanisation crept in it was necessary for these workers to seek alternative employment. Migration was at its highest from the mid to the end of the 19th Century. Land grants in America were very attractive and travel to Australia was almost ‘free’ and the wages in foreign lands were vastly improved to England.
Within England itself a further lure was to the new, industrial areas of the Midlands, North West and Yorkshire. Whole families packed up and left for a new life in these areas. There are examples of agents representing the cotton interests of the North actively negotiating with Parish officials to arrange for workers to be shipped to the mill towns which then took them off parish relief. These journeys were made possible by an improved railway network, the push of desperate conditions for the poor and the pull of regular work in the North.
Extract from: A History of Kingston Upon Hull from Bulmer’s Gazetteer (1892)
The Kingston Cotton Mill Co. Ltd., had large works in Cumberland Street. The principle building was a lofty red brick structure, 501 ft. long, 80 ft. wide and five stories high. The chimney was originally 245 high. The diameter inside its base 19ft. When these mills were in full operation, it required about 2,300 tons of raw cotton and about 7,800 tons of coal to keep them going.
This mill’s location was only a short walk from where my relatives where living (Howard’s Row off Chapman Street). It is likely, therefore, putting information from the two extracts together that the mill owners agents paid/negotiated the costs of moving them to Hull to take them off parish relief and provide them with work.
I hope this helps you understand how possibly your GG Grandfather Robert Hall moved into the area.
Once again thanks for all your help - you've been an absolute star.
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Hi Rheme
So glad to have been of help.
If you would like anymore 1851 census info for Howman etc., let me know I have a CD of Norfolk.
Thanks for the info on migrant workers, I wonder if my Robert Hall actually came to Hull first then moved on when he had some money in his pocket?? I will never know.
Did you know that a lot of barges from Hull ran down to Norfolk taking and bringing cargoes as well as human cargo.
Good luck with your journey, shout if you get stuck, if I cannot help you, others will.
Bendywendy
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Hi Rheme
Not sure of your original posting if you have a death date for Caroline Howman nee Tungate.
Have you found her anywhere on the 1871 census??
Found this Death on Freebmd
Caroline Howman aged 37 Sculcoates Dec Q 1879
If this is your Caroline Tungate who married Robert Ainger Howman than it looks likely she is the mother to George 1875 and Joseph 1877. I suggest you purchase either/all the certificates. Hopefully the Death Cert might have her husbands name on and cause of death and address. The Birth Cert hopefully will have both parents names and address.
SCULCOATES REGISTRATION DISTRICT
Registration County : Yorkshire East Riding.
Created : 1.7.1837.
Abolished : 1.4.1937 (succeeded by Hull and Holderness districts).
Sub-districts : Cottingham; Drypool; East Sculcoates; Ferriby; Hedon; Hessle; Newland; Southcoates; Sutton; West Sculcoates.
GRO volumes : XXII (1837-51); 9d (1852-1937).
Anlaby ERY From 1837 to 1935 after 1935 see Kingston upon Hull (in Hull district); Sculcoates; Haltemprice
Cottingham ERY From 1837 to 1894 after 1894 see Cottingham Within; Cottingham Without
Cottingham ER from 1898 to 1935 before 1898 see Cottingham Without / after 1935 see Kingston upon Hull (in Hull district); Sculcoates; Haltemprice
Cottingham Within ERY from 1894 to 1898 before 1894 see Cottingham / after 1898 see Sculcoates
Cottingham Without ERY from 1894 to 1898 before 1894 see Cottingham / after 1898 see Cottingham
Drypool ERY from 1837 to 1898 after 1898 see Sculcoates
Garrison Side ERY from 1837 to 1898 after 1898 see Sculcoates
Haltemprice ERY from 1837 to 1937
Hedon ERY from 1837 to 1937
Hessle ERY from 1837 to 1894 after 1894 see Hessle Within; Hessle Without
Hessle ERY from 1899 to 1935 before 1899 see Hessle Without / after 1935 see Haltemprice
Hessle Within ERY from 1894 to 1898 before 1894 see Hessle / after 1898 see Sculcoates
Hessle Withour ERY from 1894 to 1898 before 1894 see Hessle / after 1898 see Hessle
Kirk Ella ERY from 1837 to 1935 after 1935 see Skidby (in Beverley district), Kingston upon Hull (in Hull district); Sculcoates; Haltemprice
Marfleet ERY from 1837 to 1898 after 1898 see Sculcoates
Melton ERY from 1837to 1935 after 1935 see Welton
Newington ERY from 1877 to 1898 before 1877 see Swanland / after 1898 see Sculcoates
North Ferriby ERY from 1837 to 1937
Preston ERY from 1837 to 1937
Sculcoates ERY from 1837 to 1937
Southcoates ERY from 1837 to 1898 after 1898 see Sculcoates
Sutton & Stoneferry ERY from 1837 to 1894 after 1894 see Sutton Within; Sutton Without
Sutton on Hull ERY from 1898to 1935 before 1898 see Sutton Without / after 1935 see Kingston upon Hull (in Hull district); Sculcoates
Sutton Within ERY from 1894 to 1898 before 1894 see Sutton and Stoneferry / after 1898 see Sculcoates
Sutton Without ERY from 1894 to 1898 before 1894 see Sutton and Stoneferry / after 1898 see Sutton on Hull
Swanland ERY from 1837 to 1937
Wauldby ERY from 1837to 1935 after 1935 see Welton
Welton ERY from 1837 to 1937
West Ella ERY from 1837 to 1935 after 1935 see Haltemprice
Willerby ERY from 1837 to 1935 after 1935 see Kingston upon Hull (in Hull district); Sculcoates, Haltemprice; Skidby (in Beverley district)
Registers now divided between Hull and East Riding of Yorkshire districts.
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1861 census
http://www.1901censusonline.com/census.aspwci=results&searchtype=13&searchsubtype=1
These could be your Howman lot, moving on 10 years from 1851 census ages do match up
CAROLINE HOWMAN 20 Fakenham, Walsingham Married 1857
ROBERT HOWMAN 25 Fakenham, Walsingham
LEAH HOWMAN 18 Fakenham, Walsingham
On 1851 cen Robert Ainger Howman had a sister Caroline aged 27 so the above Caroline must be wife to Robert Ainger Howman. He also had a sister Leah aged 9 on 1851 cen.
1871 census
http://www.1901censusonline.com/census.aspwci=results&searchtype=14&searchsubtype=1
CAROLINE HOWMAN 29 Walsingham, Fakenham The only one found nationally.
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Hi Bendywendy
I can't believe what you have found. I had found a death date for Caroline and had not yet had chance to check it out - will certainly do that now. I also found (if I remember correctly) information relating to another child for Robert Howman that was not Caroline's and born in Great Ryburgh. Have to check that out also. Caroline just seemed to disappear from the Census information at all the addresses that Robert A. Howman was at from a particular date and going forward.. Might be that if he did have an affair resulting in a child she may have upped and gone.
Would be interesting if Caroline was in Hull as up to now I haven't been able to find any evidence of that.
Will certainly check up on what you have given me and come back to you.
Robert Ainger Howman had the following siblings - Caroline (b. 1824), Honour (b. 1828), Joseph (b. 1839) and Leah (b. 1842). Robert died in 1912 (Sculcoates, Hull).
I have tracked The Howmans back to Peter Howman (circa 1770) and his wife Lydia Ainger (circa 1772). Lydia's parents were Frances Ainger (1748 - 1812) and Margaret Meek (circa 1750).
I cannot check my census information or other at the moment as I was dying in all the paperwork at home so took it all to work with me this morning, put it into some sort of order and filed it (during my lunch of course) then forgot to bring it home with me.
Will have a good look at it all tomorrow.
Once again thanks for all your help.
Regards
rheme
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Hi Rheme
I did think that RA Howman possibly was lying in the wrong bed. ???
Caroline would only have left her husband if she had some regular income for herself and the children, the Parish would only have helped her if she qualified for the Parish Poor Relief and even that would not have been much, nor would it have been "long giving", her husband could have been made to provided for her and her children by the Parish Oversear's, he risked being jailed if he didn't provide, now this could be why he "upped and left" Norfolk to Hull with some of the children, would these children have been over the age 10 for working purposes?? He could have abandoned Caroline.
Ask your sisters to check the records in Norwich for the area Caroline lived in, to see if there is any Parish Records for Poor Relief being paid to her.
Divorce was expensive and the ordinary everyday folk could not afford this option, but it did not stop folk from "upping and leaving" to go elsewhere or to live with someone else.
Look for a Settlement Certificate or Removal Orders for their names in Norfolk and Hull.
I will find the Norwich Records Office website address for you, a fantastic site with a wealth of information. You might find the family listed for various reasons.
Going out for the day to Pickering to meet up with distant rellys of the Featherstone clan and to see the steam trains.
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Here is the Norwich Records Office website
http://www.archives.norfolk.gov.uk/nroindex.htm
Scroll down to Summaries of Collections (turquoise band) then click on
NROCAT - our online catalogue
takes time to get familiar with this site and how it works, but is invaluable for finding information.
Take a look at the website as a whole, fascinating.
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Hi
I just came across your message by chance and felt I had to reply, I also am a decendent of the Great Ryburgh Howmans who came to Hull - George Joseph Ainger Howman and Louisa (nee Brook) are my gt gt grandparents (i'm descended from their daughter Louisa Howman who married Roger Speakman). Also my dad's brother Charles married a Howman cousin, June (she's descended from your branch, Joseph Howman the brother of my George, so I'm guessing you'll know her?).
I've done quite a bit of research on this branch of my tree, but it's a bit unorganized and was a year or so since i've had it all out, so you've inspired me to sort it out incase you want to ask me about any of it!!
If there's anything I can help you with just ask, in case I've already got it and can save you any time. I live in Hull too so can can help re any local source information.
With best regards.
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Hi B/Wendy
As your original post! Movement and travel of Migration of people from Norfolk to East Yorkshire! Off hand I'm not sure on exact dates! but there used to be the PEE -WEE RUN coastal shipping up the east coast from London to Hull and back! as Unrine was collected in London to use in die process to hold the die. If you look at a map of the wash and North coast of Norfolk to Hull was not that far!*** by ship and so many ships by the Hundred.(Smelly travel >:()
Urine was bought!
Just food for thought!
http://www.wovepaper.co.uk/alumessay2.html
http://www.movinghere.org.uk/galleries/histories/irish/working_lives/working_lives.htm
Dobby
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Hi
Bendywendy - once again many thanks for all your help. Caroline did come to Hull and the evidence of her death you very kindly provided helped me to establish that and stopped me going down the wrong track. I'm learning. This comes back to your earlier advice of check and double check.
Reference the 'other' child of Robert Howman which I thought was born in Great Ryburgh (from memory as all my papers were at work). Well she wasn't it was Collier St., Hull. On the 1891 Census for Hull Robert and his family were living at 17 Howards Row, Hull. The entry for 18 Howards Row does not have a Head or wife but goes straight into 'daughter' following directly on from Robert's own. The name is Emily Smith and she is 18. The other person living at no. 18 is Thomas Clixby a boarder. So don't know if she is his daughter or it is an error on the census. Will probably have to track her birth certificate down.
GMJ - It is lovely to hear from you and thanks for getting in touch. My gt. grandad is Joseph Howman (George's brother).' My nan was Edith Howman who married Arthur Middleton and they had four children. Edith is one of 7 children (Doris, Robert, Leah, Mary and Nellie and the sixth of her siblings was Gertie. However, I am struggling to find anything on her. It is thought that she may have been born to Joseph's wife Arabella before they met/married. I don't know of June but shall certainly ask my dad and uncle who probably will. Good luck with sorting your tree out and I am sure you'll enjoy getting into it again and not if I get stuck (more like when) I would appreciate the help. It really is quite addictive. I also live in Hull.
Dobfarm - was round at my parents last night discussing migration from Norfolk to Hull and the possibilities of how this was achieved - dad told me about the ships coming up the east coast. Couldn't believe it when I read your post. It's great how when doing the family tree we are all willingly researching history. If only we had paid a bit more attention at school!!
Once again thankyou.
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Hi Rheme,
These ships was from that program on TV -Can't remember what it was called but a presenter used to rid a BMX bike round the country doing 18/9th century history and inventions also showing the basics from using plastic pop bottles & stuff.
I learned not much in history at school only main stuff! we all did -Sir Frances Drake - 1066 Hastings etc. Footy/cricket/tennis as todays kids was more interesting. As for Music, Algebra, and Knitting patterns. Well lets say Latin did have competition!
My Mark X
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PS
Speaking of School and todays kids eduction standards.? I went to a stationary shop last Saturday (Sounds like Stables) and to save time asked the assistant (He was talking to his mate first Quote "if you cross your sevens it makes you look more educated for job applications"- unquote ). When I got his attention! I asked "if they had a Dictionary"- After a conducted tour of the shop he said " I ask my boss?" He came back and asked-"is it to do with meanings of words" with a vacant look! -I said yes! Sorry!! we done sell them!!
Don't think he did the 'Times crossword' on his tea break
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Hi everyone
I can say we are all learning when doing Family History in more ways than one.
As for "stables" well the spell check on the comp has outdone those sales, how times change in such a short time. I will certainly make sure my little granddaughter will be brought up to use a dictionary, I have plenty of those around and in the loft!!!
I was always told at school it was "rude" to cross your sevens!!!!!
Rheme, did you look at the original copy of the census 1891 for this "child", if you haven't I suggest you do, also go back one page if the entry was at the top as others can be on previous page.
Have you tried to trace her Baptism record, will have a look later for you. She could have been born in Norfolk but Baptised in Hull. Probably not his true daughter, sometimes families took in other children for various reasons, this was not uncommon. Babies have been born to one family and registered with the names of another, possibly because they could not afford to feed another child they had to let the baby/child go. Life was very tough way back then.
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Hi Rheme
Found this birth on Freebmd, the only one for Hull.
Births Sep 1872 (>99%)
Smith Emily Hull 9d 233
Choice of marriages:- Only looked for Sculcoates or Hull, there is more marriages on Freebmd for marriages of Emily Smith.
Look for her on the 1901 census to see if she is still single, she could be, as women started being more independant and worked rather than looking for a husband.
Marriages Jun 1893 (>99%
Clixby Thomas Sculcoates 9d 300
Kirk William Sculcoates 9d 300
Smith Emily Sculcoates 9d 300
Marriages Jun 1894 (>99%
Robinson George Hull 9d 344
Smith Emily Hull 9d 344
Stathers William Hull 9d 344
Marriages Sep 1895 (>99%)
SIDDLE George Taylor Sculcoates 9d 261
Smith Emily Sculcoates 9d 261
Marriages Dec 1895 (>99%)
Haseltine Thomas William Hull 9d 461
Smith Emily Hull 9d 461
Waslin Robert Hull 9d 461
Marriages Dec 1896 (>99%)
Robinson Charles William Sculcoates 9d 339
Smith Emily Sculcoates 9d 339
SPECK William Sculcoates 9d 339
Marriages Dec 1896 (>99%)
Cheesman John Henry Sculcoates 9d 260
Henry George William Sculcoates 9d 260
Smith Emily Sculcoates 9d 260
Marriages Mar 1897 (>99%)
BAINES Frederick Sculcoates 9d 187
Smith Emily Sculcoates 9d 187
Marriages Jun 1897 (>99%)
Smith Emily Sculcoates 9d 348
Stephenson Charles William Sculcoates 9d 348
Stivison John Sculcoates 9d 348
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Hi Rheme
Not found a death for Emily Smith in Hull/Sculcoates, so she either married or moved away.
The birth certificate will give more details, hopefully her fathers name.
If you come across the following references, here are the meanings.
Base Born Child = Illigitimate
Nurse Child = Adopted Child
Wet Nurse = A "Milking" Woman paid to breastfeed a child
Always check the last column on the census details this will state if a person is Blind, Invalid, Imbecile, Idiot etc.
We have a good thread going here, so keep us all posted.
Bendywendy
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Hi Rheme
1901 census, either of these two could be the Emily Smith you are looking for??
Emily Valentine Smith 30 Hull Yorks Yorkshire Holy Trinity
Emily Smith 28 Yorkshire Hull Kingston Upon Hull Holy Trinity
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Me again
1911 census for Emily Smith born Hull 1872 +/- 2 years. All these born Hull around this time.
Schedule type Last names First names Sex Birth year Age in 1911 District / other County / other Transcript Original page
HOUSEHOLD SMITH EMILY F 1871 40 Horncastle Lincolnshire
HOUSEHOLD SMITH EMILY F 1871 40 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York)
HOUSEHOLD SMITH EMILY F 1873 38 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York)
HOUSEHOLD SMITH FLORENCE EMILY F 1872 39 Hull Yorkshire East Riding (with York)
HOUSEHOLD SMITH FLORENCE EMILY F 1874 37 Darlington Durham
HOUSEHOLD SMITH GERTRUDE EMILY F 1870 41 Sculcoates Yorkshire East Riding (with York)
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Hi, Both!
Going now! but someone is going to have a lucky find** with this thread! if their family tree latches on to it!
Great research!
Good luck!
Good hunting
Dobby
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All families have there ups and downs. Robert & Caroline Howman's stay in Hull was obviously a down, for this was once a wealthy family, particularly in the Elizabethan era when John Howman possessed land spread over 10 manors in the area of Briston in Norfolk. A decline in the family's fortunes began in the 17th century when John Howman had to divide his lands between the sons of two marriages and among some of his grandchildren. Robert Ainger Howman's grandfather was Peter Howman who was born in Heydon but moved to Great Ryburgh where he married Lydia Ainger. I am a descendant of Peter's daughter Rachel.
I was aware that Robert and Caroline had two sons born in Hull, but only have the 1881 census information. Do you have the actual dates?
Ombler
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Hi Ombler
Have had to leave this thread for a bit - came back from holiday and my uncle had been to see a great aunt of mine and acquired a whole pile of old photographs, birth, marriage and death certificates as well as funeral bills, etc. all to do with another line of the family that ends up linking with the Howmans later on. Have been scanning all these in and updating the tree as my great aunt is keen to know her roots. Fortunately she also has a sister who is still alive and has even more information, however, is on holiday at the moment so when she returns my uncle will be visiting her also. ;D
The info on the two sons of Robert and Caroline is as follows:-
George Howman born 1875 in Sculcoates, Hull.
George married Louisa Brook born 1877.
Joseph Howman born 1877 in Sculcoates, Hull.
He died around 1922.
Joseph married Arabella Buttery b. 1877 from Rillington, Nr. Malton, Yorkshire.
Arabella died around 1960.
Joseph and Arabella married in 1905 (probably St. Marks Church, Hull).
Joseph and Arabella are my great grandparents.
When growing up George and Joseph lived at 17 Howards Row, Chapman Street, Hull.
If you need any more info just drop me a line and if I can help I will.
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Thanks. If you want the family any further back I have the direct line back to 1500, possibilities further back, but don't want to spoil the fun of the hunt!
Ombler
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Hi Rheme and Ombler
Well I said some time back this thread would grow and grow. So fascinating how folk moved around and all the other bits of info as well makes the folk "come alive". Keep this thread growing you two. ;D
Bendywendy
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Hi There
I am a decendant of George Ainger Howman of Hull he was my grandfather, my mother and family still live in Hull, he was born George Ainger Howman 1908 and died 1942 of what I believe my mother said was TB, he married my grandmother, Mary Ann Veronica Armstrong in October 1929 they were both married from the same address, which at the time was 42 Sherburn Street Holderness Road this would have been unusual in them days and times. Any way they had four children Barbra Terry John and Carol. My grandmother always said my Uncle John was a twin, but died when she was 2 years old, this cannot be confirmed. Will hopefully fined something on this in the near future. My Grandfather had a brother I think called John and my grandmother had two sisters Elizabeth and Francis, don;t remember Elizabeth but remembered Francis when she came to visit from Australia, she was one of those who went over in the 50's and 60's she loved it never came back. My grandparents birthdays are George Ainger Howman 1908-1942 and Mary Ann Veronica Howman 1908-1982. Hope to be in touch soon with more information, I shall be visiting my family in January so will see what I can dig up then. Regards Crete
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Hi there again forgot to mention there was another daughter her name was Honor, and if you look back through all the information so far the names do repeat over the years, I myself in my family have members called Lydia, Francis and of course Honor, one of my sisters middle name is Mary. I have a cousin who called her son Russell Ainger. Regards.
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Hi
Your George A. Howman (1908) is a descendant of George J. Howman (1875) born in Hull and who married Louisa Brook (1877).
I have George A. Howman (your grandad) as having three sisters Louisa, Charlotte and Leah.
George J. Howman (1875) - your great grandad - was brother to Joseph Howman (1877) (my great grandad). Both were born in Hull, however, their brother Robert James Howman (1866), sisters Charlotte Mary Ann Howman (1870) and Leah Howman (1872) along with their parents Robert Ainger Howman (1836) and Caroline Tungate (1841) are all from the Great Ryburgh area of Norfolk along with all their ancestors.
Regards
Rheme
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Hi everyone,
Wow I cannot believe that this thread is still finding folk...but then I said it would, hope someone is collating all this info and then lodge the Tree with the Archives department in Hull, this is what history is all about, finding, helping and sharing.
Keep it growing you lot
Bendywendy
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Hi All
Thanks for all information this is really good, also I if you are looking on the Hall side of your family I had a Great Aunt Elizabeth Howman, she married a Harold Hall they emigrated to Australia with her brother Alfred Ernest Howman and his wife Violet around 1948-1950.
Regards
Crete
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Hi Crete
Harold Hall - where did he "come from" so to speak??
Thanks
Bendywendy
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Hi There
Have'nt got all details yet, next time I speak to mam will see what else she can tell me.
Regards
Crete
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thankyou, will await to hear with ernest.......us FH researchers are not very patient are we???
Bendywendy
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Hi Bendywendy
Like the name by the way, spoke to mam today, she says the Harold Hall my Great Aunt Beth married was from Hornsea and he had three sisters who were all spinsters. Are you from the Howman side or the Hall side of the family.
Regards
Crete
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Hi Crete
My dau's choose the name !!!!!! along with my personal email address !!!!
I am from the Hall side, the Howman's just come to be on this board because of their migration from Norfolk and I must say is proving to be extremely interesting.
My Hall clan came from Norfolk mid 1860's and settled in Holme upon Spalding Moor, but they did move out of HOSM and into other areas.
Do you know the name of Harold Hall's father and where he came from??
Await your reply.
Bendywendy
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Hi There
Will try to find out more when next speak to mam, I am from the Howman side but as you see my e-mail user name is also my home.
Regards
Crete
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I just chanced upon this thread and stayed to read the absorbing facts. Coincidentally I was born and bred in Hull and my grandfather's ag. lab. family were originally from Norfolk but some (like yours) had to migrate in the middle of the 19th century. There's a website (below) which outlines the cause of the migration (war, bad harvest and overpopulation in Norfolk) and describes the feeing fairs which were held around Britain on Michaelmas Day. The same fairs were held across mainland Europe too. I can't find it now but there's a jpeg online of an annual labour fair/market held in Glasgow.
http://www.cambridgeshirehistory.com/People/agriculturallabourers.html
It was the normal custom for hiring to be done once a year, at Michaelmas (29 September), the place of hiring almost always being a country fair, or, less often, a market. The fairs were frequently called 'hiring fairs' (although other business and sales would also be transacted), and they were common throughout the county (eg. 25 were held in 1762). The labourers would stand on a platform, or in an enclosure, to be 'looked over by the prospective employers for features such as strength, general appearance and character (and, in the case of girls, probably their attractiveness as well!). They would then be questioned about their skills and abilities, their previous employment and their liabilities (which might well include wives and children
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Hi There
Thanks for the web site. My ancesters are from the Norfolk area so will be interesting to see what brought them to Hull.
Regards
Crete
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Hi BendyWendy
Just to let you know the Harold Hall my great aunt married,his original name was Horace and from Hull they married in 1937 and emigrated to Australia in 1948-50 with my great uncle and wife. Was telling my brother about doing this family tree and he said it was really good because every year he and his wife
goto the Norfolk broads (i think that's how you spell it).
Regards
Crete
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Hi Crete
Thanks for the info, will try and see if this Horace/Harold has anything to do with my lot.
Will let everyone know on here if I find a connection or anything about him.
Bendywendy
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Hi
Is this the correct marriage for Horace/Harold Hall ???
Marriages Dec 1937
ARMSTRONG Elizabeth Hull 9d 669
Hall Horace E
Was Elizabeth also known as Armstrong??
Cannot find a marriage for a Hall and Howman
Also cannot find any births of children for Hall and Howman or Hall and Armstrong???
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Also only found these for Births of Horace Hall, do you know if he was born Hull area??
Births Sep 1901
HALL Horace Albert Hull 9d 295
Births Sep 1902
Hall Horace Edward Sculcoates 9d 169
Births Mar 1908
Hall Horace Edwin Sculcoates 9d 279
Regards
Bendywendy
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Hi There
Yes this is the right one my mistake forgot to tell you Elizabeth was an Armstong before she married, as far as I knowthey had children but if there children had children it was in Australia after they emigrated I am hopefull some one will get in touch from the Aussie notice boards, who knows.
Regards
Crete 8)
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Hi Crete
So was Elizabeth a Howman by birth and had she been married before she married Harold/Horace Hall?
At moment cannot fit him in with my Hall lot, but maybe someone else will drop lucky, just to make sure we have all the correct info so folk don't go up wrong pathway.
Regards
Wendy
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Hi Bendywendy
My mistake Elizabeth was a Armstrong by birth, she married a Hall and then went to Australia, with her brother and sister in law, the children they had were born in Australia so are not registered here. I am doing the Howman side and the Armstrong side of the family which is only my mother's side I hav'nt started on my father's yet, this should be interesting as they called my grandfather on my Father's side George as well. So will put more info on the Aussie board who know's.
Regards
Crete ???
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Hi Bendywendy
Just let you know got a couple of things wrong yesterday, must have been too soon after my greek class, anyway,Elizabeth and Harold had three children, ................... though one died young. They were all born in Hull and first lived down Westbourne Avenue before moving to Lambeth Street. So maybe this might be of help. Also had contact with person from Victoria Melbourne were they all went over too so might be something there will let you know out come.
Regards
Crete
Moderator Comment: Please do not post details of people who may still be living.
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Hi
For those who are wanting more info on Farm Servants this might be useful info.
http://www.bahs.org.uk/50n1a2.pdf
There is mention of Yorkshire in this.
Bendywendy
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Found a link on Facebook - Howman's of the world - there is a family tree in the photo section that takes the Norfolk Howman's back to William Howman born c. 1240.
It is difficult to read as the print is too small, but if you right click on it then copy and paste it onto a word document - landscape, then use the zoom it is possible to read it. Might be worth printing it out and blowing up on a photocopier.
Hope this helps someone. :)
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Came across your topic by chance and only last night watched a TV programme I'd recorded some time ago - it was the BBC's Who Do You Think You Are episode concerning Jeremy Paxman. It was a pretty old programme as I recorded it off some repeat channel.
His relatives were on Poor Relief in Suffolk until some time in the 1830s when this was replaced by the workhouses. To avoid going into the workhouse they joined a scheme which moved them from Suffolk to Lancashire (and eventually to Yorkshire) to work in the woollen mills. Apparently they were transported first to London then, by canal, to Lancashire and provided with jobs. Only children over 12 got jobs so this family left three younger children in Suffolk until they were able to be reunited some years later.
The scheme was run by Migration Agents and was paid for by the Poor Relief people. I'm sorry I don't know the actual name of the scheme.
My own relatives (being the contrary bunch we were) moved from Yorkshire to Norfolk so were opposite to the general flow.
Hope this might help solve your mystery.
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Hi Rensor
Thanks for the info, will try and find something about the Migration Agents/Scheme.
Bendywendy
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Hi Wendy,
I just picked up your link, and it seems your family is also mine. Linked via Charlotte Howman(my great great grandmother), sister of Lydia Howman, who upped and left Norfolk with Robert and went to Hull. I may have the answer to the confusion of the two sons' parentage. According to my information, they are listed in a census as being Robert's children, and Lydia is listed as the mother, at the same time as being listed as Robert's daughter. This is either a mistake on the part of the census taker, or there appears to have been some incest. That's the only two conclusions i can draw from the info. If you want to know more, please let me know. I've traced the Howman's back to Norfolk as far back as around 1270, and I think the name was originally Humanz, the furthest back i can go is a Johann Diederich Humanz, and it seems the name was adapted to Howman later. So it's a fair guess he was from Eastern Europe or possibly Scandanavia. There's has always been a bit of a myth in my family about a German Jewish link somewhere but I have no proof if this is just myth so far. Charlotte Howman married a Norton, from Lincoln and they moved to Sheffield, which is where my family has been since. Quite how or why she came to leave her family in Norfolk and move to Lincoln is not clear, they were married in Lincoln but moved shortly after to Sheffield. It was around the time Lydia moved to Hull with Robert. I have a photograph of Charlotte and my great, great Grandfather if you are interested. I also have a burial certificate/receipt for an infant of the family who died aged 9months in 1903, their child, who's name is 'Howman' Norton. he was buried in a reopened grave so I assume there are several more int he same plot but haven't been able to locate the exact spot in the cemetary so far, but it's still there, opposite Don Valley Stadium in Sheffield. It seems to have been the next generation My great Grandfather who dropped the Howman name. Charlotte had around 14 children, many of them died in infancy but around 8 survived to adulthood. Not sure if the Howman's of Norfolk were particularly 'short' but my great grandfather was only 5 foot 2, and his brother around the same. i hope at least some of this info is useful and would be interested in any information you have to compare and confirm that mine is correct.
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Hi GMJ,
I presume your parents are D and AM and you married MCJ?
I have been in touch previously with Charles' son Sean re the Howman families.
Regards
Ray
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Hi boudeccia,
I would like to know more about the family of William Hill Norton and Charlotte Mary Ann / Miriam Howman.
I have the names of eight children, including Wilfred Howman Norton who died in 1905, and I think William died in 1948 and Charlotte in 1951, but have nothing on their descendants.
Regards
Ray
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Great Stuff!
I have been toying with the idea of researching the Howman family history for ages.
I am a grandson of Joseph and Arabella.
My mum (Nellie) used to say he worked as a builders labourer and fitted the round concrete balls to the gateposts of the almshouses at East Park, Hull.
I think he died in 1924 of the effects of mustard gas. (a year after my mum was born)He failed to get a ticket saying he had been gassed, so he and his widow could get no War Pension.
Gert was married to Arthur Cullum and lived in Rosmead St., Hull. They had a son Brian.
As far as I can remember Leah used to visit Howman relatives in East Derham. They were butchers and farmers.
I would love to have further info if anyone has some.
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Hi
I am tying in a similar thread that may be of benefit:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=650066.new#new
bendywendy
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Hi boudeccia,
I would like to know more about the family of William Hill Norton and Charlotte Mary Ann / Miriam Howman.
I have the names of eight children, including Wilfred Howman Norton who died in 1905, and I think William died in 1948 and Charlotte in 1951, but have nothing on their descendants.
Regards
Ray
Hi ray, you can reach me on chrisgrn2@aol.com , I can't reply to the message you sent. Fred was my great grandfather, he married Myra Kelsall and Edna Norton, his daughter, was my grandmother who died on 27th august 2012 aged 90. Email me and I'll send you everything I have including photos.