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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: WHITMORE on Saturday 23 August 08 04:04 BST (UK)
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I am looking for information regarding James Saunders - could be Saunders-loder. Came to New Zealand about 1840-50 - don't know from where but could have been England. He was a whaler in North Otago New Zealand but appears to have most of his life at Waitaki. He married a Maori lady named Peri
Any help with be very much appreciated
Margaret Invercargill New Zealand
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Hi Whitmore
Had a look on familysearch this is what I found not sure if you had this info already but it looks as if James was born in NZ
BIRTH abt1820 of, Papakaio Otago NZ
Death 1861
Marriage Mrs Peri Saunders 1845 of, Te-Puna-Omaru Otago NZ
He died young only 41
Regards Lynne
P.S Had a quick look on 1841 english census but there were 660 James Saunders?
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Hi
Thanks for your reply - I have seen this information. I will keep looking - again many thanks.
Margaret
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Hi Margaret
James Saunders-Loder (also known as Jimmy The Needle) boatman on the Waitaki in his later years. He drowned crossing the Waitaki on or about Dec 28, 1862. He is buried at Georgetown cemertary. He married Pere Kapu, they had 2 children John & Emma. The info I have says he married again to a Peti Wixon, they had 2 children James & Henry. I'm not sure if he was born in NZ or imergrated from England but I understand he was on the whaling ships. Hope this helps.
Dean
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Hi Dean
Your information sounds very similar to mine - can I ask were you got it from
cheers Margaret
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Hi Margaret
Well I'm not 100% sure. I've got a photocopy of a newspaper article dated Jan 10, 1884 that I got of an auntie, also a letter to the editor article from the O.D.T. dated 16/3/90 that had a couple of things that was written by a Pat Palmer from CHCH. I have got some things from Ngi Tahu records since he marrird a Maori woman and things like cemertry records etc. I have seen his grave at Georgetown, and my interest being that I'm a desendent of his, he goes back about 5 generations? I would be most grateful for any information that you may have to help fill in some gaps etc.
regards Dean
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Hi Dean
My great great mother was the Maori lady, Pere Kapu, who married James Saunders. My great grand mother was James and Pere daughter - her name was Emma. Emma married Thomas Heath and my grand mother married George spriggs. Pere and James also had a son named John. I to have been to Georgetown and to the family Marae in Waihoa. Can I ask have are you related to James Saunders. My e-mail address is (*) if you would like to talk privately.
Cheers Margaret
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If you are an NZSG member there are researchers, as they have contributed death cert etc to collection.
always worth asking NZSG branch direct what info they have collected
http://www.genealogy.org.nz/Oamaru_187.aspx
Papers past has refs for "Jimmy the Needle"
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=NOT18890905.2.20&srpos=2&e=-------10--1----2%22jimmy+the+needle%22-all
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=THD18850617.2.18&srpos=4&e=-------10--1----2%22jimmy+the+needle%22-all
to do with his sons
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=NOT18850617.2.7.8&srpos=1&e=-------10--1----2%22jimmy+the+needle%22-all
Bye
Althea
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James Saunders Loder was said to have been worth 10,000 pound in gold coin at the time of his death. This money has never been found but is assumed to be buried in North Otago...should I say where?
His daughter told her daughter that and in turn I was informed. It was told to me around thirty years ago and I have no reason to disbelieve the validity of this.
He was said to have come from a 'well connected' Lancashire Cotton mill family though I question this as it has also been said that he signed his name with an X on articles of the vessel 'Mary and Elizabeth' in 1834
This I also question as he was supposed to be about 41 at time of death - that would make him 13 when he signed aboard the 'Mary and Elizabeth' and if he was sent to Botany Bay as the story goes then he must have been younger still when sentenced by the court back in England.
I have no doubt though that the money does exist.
To me the story of his past simply does not add up
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Whitmore,I've been trying to find you for some weeks now!Listen my daughter's mother is a descendant of John Saunders-Loder, Emma's brother.I found your post about your whakapapa and we NEED to dicuss the finer points about.
I await your reply.
naku noa, naa Upokoruru
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I am also open to discuss with any one regarding Jimmy the Needle's first wife, Pere Kapu, the daughter of Peneamine Te Kihi and Romia and aspects about the relevant whakapapa that goes back from Peneamine Te Kihi including the Land Court minutes of 1967 in relation to Tanihera Teko/Reko.
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I am also open to discuss with any one regarding Jimmy the Needle's first wife, Pere Kapu, the daughter of Peneamine Te Kihi and Romia and aspects about the relevant whakapapa that goes back from Peneamine Te Kihi including the Land Court minutes of 1967 in relation to Tanihera Teko/Reko.
Interesting - I have a photo of JSL's daughter on the wall behind me as I type - it was her who told my grandmother (her daughter) of the money I mentioned earlier.
I have considerable papers relating to JSL but att his point in time am too disorganised to feed the cat let alone look out or sort them out. I am a great great grandson of his.
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kia ora Lammerlaw,
I have researched a lot of S.Iland Maori history over the years,especially whakapapa.I have traced the whakapapa for Romia, Peneamine Te Kihi's wife, but not any further back for Te Kihi, except what appeared in the Maori Land Court minute book no.42, p.349, in 1967 which was given by Rose Paiki Tumaru ,daughter of Ema Saunders-Loder and Hemi Paiki.Rose gave a whakapapa that placed Peneamine Te Kihi as the son of Tanihera Teko or Reko and Mairaki Punamaru.She claimed Tanihera was her gr.gr.grandmother, although Tanihera is probably the same as 'Taniera', i.e, a S.Island transliteration for the name 'Daniel'!But why does Tanihera have both names ?Teko and Reko?The only Teko I know of was a man lived at the Punamaru nohoaka-settlement in 1848 of the Kati Kura hapu (probably from the tipuna Kuratakiao).The census places Teko's age as 48 ,whilst Peneamine Te Kihi in Waikouaiti was 46.This Teko cannot be Te Kihi's parent.Te Kihi's parents would be born.circa 1780.
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p.s: feed the moggy. ;)
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kia ora Lammerlaw,
I have researched a lot of S.Iland Maori history over the years,especially whakapapa.I have traced the whakapapa for Romia, Peneamine Te Kihi's wife, but not any further back for Te Kihi, except what appeared in the Maori Land Court minute book no.42, p.349, in 1967 which was given by Rose Paiki Tumaru ,daughter of Ema Saunders-Loder and Hemi Paiki.Rose gave a whakapapa that placed Peneamine Te Kihi as the son of Tanihera Teko or Reko and Mairaki Punamaru.She claimed Tanihera was her gr.gr.grandmother, although Tanihera is probably the same as 'Taniera', i.e, a S.Island transliteration for the name 'Daniel'!But why does Tanihera have both names ?Teko and Reko?The only Teko I know of was a man lived at the Punamaru nohoaka-settlement in 1848 of the Kati Kura hapu (probably from the tipuna Kuratakiao).The census places Teko's age as 48 ,whilst Peneamine Te Kihi in Waikouaiti was 46.This Teko cannot be Te Kihi's parent.Te Kihi's parents would be born.circa 1780.
At this point I think that the line in question comes to an end at Teko and Mairaki Punaomaru - at a cursory glance that is as far back as I have. For the other members of my Family, Hape and Ripeka Korako I can go back as far as it goes.
Your queries re ages etc and who is whos parent I cannot try to work out at the moment. I have dozens of pages of whakapapa BUT I gave up on it twenty years ago as I was tearing my hair out trying to fathom it out then decided that it could wait and it is still waiting.
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so Lammerlaw, do you come down the Paiki side from Ema?I found some whakapapa for Paiki's father and mother, Hemi Hape and Erihapeti/Elizabeth.Not sure how reliable it is.Needs to be cross checked.
I wanted to contact Whitmore, because she (?) posted a whakapapa on the internet way back in 2001 which appears to connect to Reko, son of Te Pananehu, and someone called Mairaki.Te Pananehu and Reko are my tipuna, but the lines Whitmore showed are new to me, but of great interest.
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so Lammerlaw, do you come down the Paiki side from Ema?I found some whakapapa for Paiki's father and mother, Hemi Hape and Erihapeti/Elizabeth.Not sure how reliable it is.Needs to be cross checked.
I wanted to contact Whitmore, because she (?) posted a whakapapa on the internet way back in 2001 which appears to connect to Reko, son of Te Pananehu, and someone called Mairaki.Te Pananehu and Reko are my tipuna, but the lines Whitmore showed are new to me, but of great interest.
I have many pages of the Hemi Paiki whakapapa but the only small link I have not got is the connection with Korako of Murderering beach if it exists and according to my grandmother 'that was my line' - Hemi Hape came from the same line as Tikaos and Irahapetis mother was Ripeka Korako. Yes the Paiki line is my line.
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so Lammerlaw, do you come down the Paiki side from Ema?I found some whakapapa for Paiki's father and mother, Hemi Hape and Erihapeti/Elizabeth.Not sure how reliable it is.Needs to be cross checked.
I wanted to contact Whitmore, because she (?) posted a whakapapa on the internet way back in 2001 which appears to connect to Reko, son of Te Pananehu, and someone called Mairaki.Te Pananehu and Reko are my tipuna, but the lines Whitmore showed are new to me, but of great interest.
I have many pages of the Hemi Paiki whakapapa but the only small link I have not got is the connection with Korako of Murderering beach if it exists and according to my grandmother 'that was my line' - Hemi Hape came from the same line as Tikaos and Irahapetis mother was Ripeka Korako. Yes the Paiki line is my line.
I was looking through Hemi Paiki's notebook toady at the Hocken library.It was dated 1883 and includes the years of births for the Heath children.Awhile back I also read Beattie's interviews with Rose Violet Paiki and Hana Paiki and their anecdote about Peneamine Te Kihi and his son burying 'paiwhenua' somewhere near Morven.My gr.gr.grandfather, Puao Rakiraki, told Beattie that Te Kihi was his father's cousin and that he buried some pounamu up Waimate way.Problem is there was two men called Te Kihi.one was named Horomona Te Kihi and lived on Ruapuke Island and sometimes at Port Molyneux-Kaka Point, but this Horomona Te Kihi was said to be an old man" in 1856.His wife was Te Kawewhitau, a sister of Whakahopu I think.He died about 1863 (?).Puao's father was Haimona Rakiraki/Rakitapu and he was born about 1810.His father was Reko (son of Te Pananehu).These people came from the Waitaki area.Te Kapa was Haimona's uncle and Huruhuru his cousin.
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I did not know of Hemi Paikis Diary at the Hocken Library - thats a new one to me - he is my Grandmothers father. The Heaths are not descended form him though as they are descended from Joe Heath Snr
Emma Was married three times - Joe Heath - Hemi Paiki - Thomas Turner.
Rose Paiki married Tumaru Hana Married Te Whao and Minnie married William Thomas
I pass the Hocken Library now and again so might do a bit more delving myself if I can muster the enthusiasm. I gave up being interested in Whakapapa years ago.
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I did not know of Hemi Paikis Diary at the Hocken Library - thats a new one to me - he is my Grandmothers father. The Heaths are not descended form him though as they are descended from Joe Heath Snr
Emma Was married three times - Joe Heath - Hemi Paiki - Thomas Turner.
Rose Paiki married Tumaru Hana Married Te Whao and Minnie married William Thomas
I pass the Hocken Library now and again so might do a bit more delving myself if I can muster the enthusiasm. I gave up being interested in Whakapapa years ago.
I hope you are inspired now.the reference number for Paiki's book is MS-0175.The book is mainly full of waiata.Interesting part of Hemi's book is that he wrote out a whakapapa that leads onto Whakahopu and the Haerenoa-Arnett crowd.I am sure Kawewhitau was related to these people-she is also known as Matiria Te Kihi.Not sure why Hemi would record this whakapapa in his own notebook.
In one whakpapa I have seen elsewhere ,Peneamine Te Kihi's daughter named Punamaru had issue to a Paiki.Do you think Paiki had issue to Punamaru and her niece Emma?Hemi Paiki might have had a brother named Hotene Hape.
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I think I have the answer to the Hemi Paiki question and will do a double check but not right now - this is getting too complicated but I am happy to help you out with all information I have but it might be best to contact me personally...does this site allow it?
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I think I have the answer to the Hemi Paiki question and will do a double check but not right now - this is getting too complicated but I am happy to help you out with all information I have but it might be best to contact me personally...does this site allow it?
I have sent you a message.
According to what I have found, Hemi Paiki's mother was Erihapeti/Elizabeth, the daughter of Matiu and Ripeka Mate.This will make Paiki a nephew of Hoani Matiu.Is this correct?
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I had never looked at it that way - I guess I simply never thought of that! - I had merely looked at it from the perspective that Irihapeti was sister of Hoanu Matui - yes.
Also I tend to get mxed up because Irihapetis mother has been listed as Ripeka Korako and as Ripeka Mate...I need to do a lot of checking and will ave the answers here (I think) but simply havent got the time atm
Hemi Paiki was described as having been descended form 'The Aristocratic lines of Waitaha.'
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I think the 'Korako' you are looking for was a female named Ripeka Korako,a daughter of Te Rakipataua.Te Rakipataua is a brother of Te Pananehu, whom I mentioned above, and a sister named Manawa.They are the children of Kuratakiao and Kiteraki.These people held mana-whenua over parts of the Waitaki River including Tame Parata's tipuna Te Matehaere.Te Maiharoa is a great-grandson of Te Pananehu. Manawa is the grandmother of Hoani 'Bloody Jack' Tuhawaiki.Horomona Pohio is a grandson of Te Rakipataua.
Now,Ripeka Korako (f) and Ratanuku had Kaikoareare alias Big fellow or Whaikai, and Ripeka Mate.However, Ripeka Korako(f) had a brother also named Korako (Korakonui), who is believed to be the very old tohuka-chief James Watkin meet in 1840 at Waikouaiti.A whakapapa, which seems reliable, states there were two Korako siblings , a wahine and a tane.
The other Korako associated with 'Murdering Beach' is believed to be the father of Matenga Taiaroa.
Hoani Matiu's faher, Matiu , had two wives;one Amelia Poutini and her sister named Mere Koiti, became the second wife.Amelia is the mother of Hoani.It pays to double check this information.
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Many thanks for that - I have copies of papers relating to JSL and so on and you are welcome to peruse them but I dont wish to write on this site as it is too time consuming for me - I am as happy as a sand boy to help you out with whatever you wish and certainly more than appreciate the information you have given me, especially the last two contributions.
I have sent you my email address and you can make contact on it if you wish to go further otherwise my sister might like to follow up by taking my place on here
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Many thanks for that - I have copies of papers relating to JSL and so on and you are welcome to peruse them but I dont wish to write on this site as it is too time consuming for me - I am as happy as a sand boy to help you out with whatever you wish and certainly more than appreciate the information you have given me, especially the last two contributions.
I have sent you my email address and you can make contact on it if you wish to go further otherwise my sister might like to follow up by taking my place on here
cheers Lammerlaw.I sent you another message here on RootsChat.com
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Matiu Kapene coupled with a woman named Mere Koeti, a sister of America/Amelia Matiu, who are the daughters of Hoani Tamahika and Puketai, and had a child named ‘Rawea Hape’, who may or may not be the same person as Irahepeti who married Hemi Hape.I suppose this needs a closer look...
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Hey do you have any idea what Kaumatua james saunder-loder was a descendant from?
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Hey do you have any idea what Kaumatua james saunder-loder was a descendant from?
no.but i understand he came from Lancashire .the fact that he has a double barreled name indicates he might have been a 'loader' and that his actual surname was jut Saunders.
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Anyone still interested in the 'origins' of Peneamine/Benjamin Te Kihi, I am still researching this matter. I have established through a certain manuscript kept in Archives New Zealand, Wellington office, that Te Kihi was given the patronym "Reko" or "Riko". His hapu/sub tribe affiliations are given as follows: Kai Tutekawa, Kai Tuna, Kai Turakautahi and Kati Huirapa. The hapu affiliations for his wife, Romia Titope, and her sister Pakinui Titope are as follows:Kati Huirapa, Kai Turakautahi, Kai Tutekawa, Kai Tuna and Kati Reitei. I have the whakapapa for all the lines relating to Romia and Pakinui where for example, Tuna is shown as the descendant of Tutekawa (Kati Mamoe/Ngati Kahungunu). Romia and Pakinui were also descendants of Te Maiwerohia, the great-grandson of Tutekawa. Further more, looking through some James Herries-Beattie notes some years back, there is a brief mention of Te Kihi as the "cousin" of Puao Jack Rakiraki's father, Haimona Rakiraki alias Rakitapu. This "Reko" should not be confused with Haimona's father of the same name. So far I am labouring under the notion the name is actually "Riko" and that it points to a relative of Haimona's called Te Urukaio alias Riko.
I am required to research this hypothesis further, but as of yet I am inclined to believe I am on the right track. Watch this space,.... ;D
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I would be very interested in any information that you have on Pakinui Titope I am a descendant of hers but have nothing about her whanau, hapu, iwi and canoe. Anything you have would be thankfully received.
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A copy of a document found in the Frank Tod papers at the Dunedin Hocken Library (MS-3290/04.) titled ’Schedule showing the names of the purchasers on Crown Lands in the District of Moeraki in the Provision recommended for the half-caste children’ shows both Mary Pakinui and her niece Pere (Pere Kapu) identified with the hapu Kati Moruka, who was the daughter of Maru. Mary Pakinui was married to William Harpur whilst Pere was not married at the time her partner is recorded as James Saunders. This document carries the date of May 1853.
The following is a line from the Kai Tahu tipuna Kuri. Note Moruka is the great-great-granddaughter of Kuri:
Kuri
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Rakaitekura
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Puraho = Hinepaka
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Maru = Te Waipuha (no Ngati Whata)
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Moruka =*Tahuna (a Tuwhakapau)
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Hineata = Tuata
_______________|_______________
| |
Kaiata = Hinekaimoe Hinepuariari
________|_______________
| |
Moko Taawha
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Pukukea
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Mahaki
____|_______________
| |
Romia Pakinui
|
Pere Kapu
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Hi Loveden,
I have just started my journey to find my whakapapa and would appreciate any info you have on James Saunders Loder. We are descendants of his first son John to Pere Kapu. Thanks :)
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;D Thank you very much for that information, really appreciated. It will be very useful.
Regards Allan.
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(Kati Mamoe) Hinetauhara = Maika (Kati Mamoe and Ngati Kahungunu)
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(Kati Mamoe) Rakanuku = Tutekawa
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Te Atawhiua = Tupuku
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Koa = Kiritekateka (her tribe/iwi was Waitaha)
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Te Maiwerohia =Tamakitahaka Te Korerehu = Te Rakiamoa
|___ _____________________|
| | |
Kiraho = Hokotuna Tanemahuta = Moko
| ______________________|
| |
Pukukea = Tawhirimatea
____________________|___________________________
| | |
Mahaki =Titope Tahapa= Poihaka Poutoa = Titope
___________|____________ | |
| | Rauahiahi = Kawa Pakote
# Romia Harper 2nd = Pakinui = 1st Marten
________|______________
| |
Tame Teo =Peti Wixon
This appears to show Titope coupled with both Mahaki and Poutoa. Another version places Pukukea as the offspring of Moko, instead of Tawhirimatea being the offspring of Moko.Tutekawa was the son of Hinetauhara and Maika. Poutea is the offspring of Pukuhea and Tawhirimatea. Te Rakiamoa is the son of Turkautahi and Te Aowharepapa. Write this down carefully.
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Thanks again Loveden. It is getting trickier isn't it.
Regards Allan.
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Waitaha: whakapapa mo Kiritekateka;
Rakaihautu
Te Rakihouia
We-a-Raki
Te Awe-awe
Te Whatu
Te Whatu-hunahuna
Te Whatu-karokaro
Te Whatu-ariki
Te Whatu-karokota
Waitaha
Taaneauroa
Na Taaneauroa
Tititea
Turu
Ari
Takaha
Koroike
Tepapapuni
Taataawhee
Tahauri
Rokowhata
Kawarau
Parapara
Waimeha
Tekaaretu
Tamaipa
Waiwhero
Kahuwera
Taraia
Te Kuramoeanu = Uruwera
1. Ko Kiritekateka
2. Ko Whakahiarau
Na Kiritekateka = Koaa
1. Ko Temaiwerohia
2. Ko Korapa
Na Te Maiwerohia = Tamakitahaka
1. Ko Maru
2. Ko Tewharekeake
3. Ko Kiiraho
4. Ko Monene
5. Ko Teratahi
6. Tehuruhuru
7. Ko Moetu
me waiho ikonei i.
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Hi Loveden,
I have just started my journey to find my whakapapa and would appreciate any info you have on James Saunders Loder. We are descendants of his first son John to Pere Kapu. Thanks :)
[/q‘
JIMMY THE NEEDLE’(Dunedin Midweek, Wed., September 1, 1982.)
“An extract from the book “Protector of the Aborigines” By Edward Shortland. Contributed by Mary Parata, who is a descendant of Jimmy The Needle.
When crossing the river from the southern bank of the Waitaki, the Maoris usually launched their canoes from Te Huruhuru’s village Puna-o-Maru, near where the Awamoka Creek flows into the Waitaki.
Here lived James Saunders, known as Jimmy the Needle, because he was so tall and thin. Jimmy, who had been a whaler, was married to a Maori woman and was the first white man to live in the district. He saw the need for a ferry across the Waitaki, and having been a sailor, knew how to handle a boat. Jimmy turned his knowledge into profitable use by rowing travelers across the river in a canoe, towing the horses behind. Travellers from the north lit signal fires when they wanted Jimmy to ferry them across. There was no set fare and the ferryman charged what he thought fit-judging shrewdly what he fought his passengers could pay.
One account says: ‘One day Bishop Harper of Christchurch, gave the signal and Jimmy went for and crossed him and his valet safely. The charge, however, rather surprise the Bishop, so he asked Jimmy if he knew who he had ferried over. Jimmy replied he did not. He was then informed and Jimmy’s reply was “Then I must charge you more. It is not every day I have the chance of ferrying a bishop.” But Jimmy did not have it all his own way for in 1860 a Government ferry was started on the site of the ferry reserve, five miles up the river from the present traffic bridge. This service took away the ferrying business from Jimmy, although he continued to cross the river occasionally. Because he knew every current and eddy of the river, he could ignore the saying “if you cross the Waitaki often enough it will get you in the end.”
One morning Jimmy was feeling pleased at the birth of a son and Dr. T J T Williams called at the Saunders home. The doctor then said that he would like to see a patient at the northern side of the river, so Jimmy went with him to light a tussock fire to summon the Government ferryman, James Earl, from the north bank. The boat came, took them to the north and some hours later, brought them back. He watched the doctor mount his horse and Jimmy climbed up behind him as they had to climb shallow streams with occasional deep pools in them. The horse stumbled into one of these pools and Jimmy fell off. Not knowing this the doctor on to the bank. Jimmy was a good swimmer but this time he was hampered with heavy coat and cape. The boatman, who had suspected something was wrong, came back, but by this time the body of James Saunders had been taken out of the water. His body was put on a door and taken home.
In the Georgetown cemetery there is a stone cairn on which is inscribed “ James Saunders Loder, Jimmy The Needle, drowned, 1862.”
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Thank-you Loveden.
I have a copy of the coroners inquest dated 5th January 1863 for Jimmy the Needle's death...happy to share this info but finding it extremely hard to decipher the hand writing!
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The story of James Saunders and his son's Henry & James inheritance is completed in the Lyttleton Times on 27 August 1885 and 27 November 1885
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/LT18850827.2.4?query=james%20saunders
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/LT18851127.2.19?query=James%20Saunders
It seems they finally got some recompense
Signal
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Kia ora Loveden,
I am curious abouth the kati huirapa connection with both romia titope and peneamine te kihi, do you have any further information around this.
Can you also indicate which runanga you understand these do affiliate with, as the whakapapa unit within ngai tahu believe that they affiliate with waihao, tuahuriri and possibly moeraki. Mainly wondering if they connect into puketeraki particularly, but also arowhenua and otakou?
- I also descend from jimmy the needles son john saunders-loder the first and his son the second of that name.
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Kia ora Loveden,
I am curious abouth the kati huirapa connection with both romia titope and peneamine te kihi, do you have any further information around this.
Can you also indicate which runanga you understand these do affiliate with, as the whakapapa unit within ngai tahu believe that they affiliate with waihao, tuahuriri and possibly moeraki. Mainly wondering if they connect into puketeraki particularly, but also arowhenua and otakou?
- I also descend from jimmy the needles son john saunders-loder the first and his son the second of that name.
Kia ora Miharet. I have yet to find the Kati Huirapa affiliation of Pakinui and Romia although that is one of their hapu affiliations given in the 1879 census. I have seen the same Kati Huirapa affiliation, not found, given for Reko-a-Tatara at Tuturau although he comes down similar lines as Pakinui and Romia. It appears their is a forgotten Huirapa ancestor further back perhaps through Ruawhakarau? As for Te Kihi; I believe he descends from Te Pananehu, the local Kati Huirapa rangatira associated with the The Waitaki River mouth and other settlements in the area. Te Pananehu is my tipuna. Te Kapa is one of his sons, through his wife Hinewera, and Tamati Huruhuru is his grandson, through his daughter Kaeo, and I suspect Te Kihi was related to them. Huruhuru is the one who moved to Waimate (~Te Waimatemate.). The runaka will be Waihao and Karitane/Waikouaiti.
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Kia ora .. just wanting to know how Pohio was a grandson of Te Rakipataua when his parents were Tutu and Tohu ? Nga mihi
Ps was old Korako (nui) known by another name and was he baptised by WATKIN ?
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Kia ora .. just wanting to know how Pohio was a grandson of Te Rakipataua when his parents were Tutu and Tohu ? Nga mihi
Ps was old Korako (nui) known by another name and was he baptised by WATKIN ?
Rakipataua a Te Kurutakiao raua ko Kiteraki, married Pukukaikai and had Korako (alias Korako-tane or Korakonui) and Hikaka. Hikaka coupled with Kahupatiti, not to be confused with Benjamin Kahupatiti a latter figure. They had Tutu who married Tohu and had Te Ururaki, said to be the oldest, and Horomona Pohio. Kahupatiti was a son of Kou and Whatarau. The latter is a son of Tokorau (a Kati Huirapa) and Te Aotu (a Taoka raua ko Hinekawai a Kati Huirapa). There were other child of Hikaka and Kahupatiti. There were other child from Tutu and Tohu as well. Korako had an half sister called Korako-wahine and I recall that a branch of the Kahu whanau at Arowhenua come down from her. Yes I am sure Korakonui was baptised by Watkin at Waikouaiti.
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Tena koe ano.. Thank you that is very clear.
If you will continue to indulge me please as this is very important to me. Who was Kōrakonui married to ? and are you aware of the Tupuna Te Ihu-puku .. do you know the uri of Korakonui as the land court minutes etc. give a number of Kōrako including the one apparently shot and killed at Otakou by pakeha .. Te Rakipataua is annotated in our family whakapapa as being an uncle to Karetai and Taiaroa and if this is correct then he is my tipuna too just under a different name. Which as a tohuka wouldnt surprise me. If not then I’m back to square one. Panenehu and Te Rakipataua keep coming up in our Whanau Korero so I’m obviously missing something ?
Nga mihi whanauka, thanks again for your knowledge
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Tena koe ano.. Thank you that is very clear.
If you will continue to indulge me please as this is very important to me. Who was Kōrakonui married to ? and are you aware of the Tupuna Te Ihu-puku .. do you know the uri of Korakonui as the land court minutes etc. give a number of Kōrako including the one apparently shot and killed at Otakou by pakeha .. Te Rakipataua is annotated in our family whakapapa as being an uncle to Karetai and Taiaroa and if this is correct then he is my tipuna too just under a different name. Which as a tohuka wouldnt surprise me. If not then I’m back to square one. Panenehu and Te Rakipataua keep coming up in our Whanau Korero so I’m obviously missing something ?
Nga mihi whanauka, thanks again for your knowledge
Okay, Korako was also known as Wakena/Watakini. His two grandchildren, or the ones I know of, are Mata Pii and Hana Kairama. This is the tipuna who signed the 1844 Otago Deed. He had two known wives; Rahonui and Mata Wakena Te Kupukupu. Mata is related to the Te Maire side as she was an older relative of Rawiri Te Maire's wife, Heikura, who are mainly Kati Mamoe.Yes I know of Te Ihupuku who married Kiwi. I can't see how Te Rakipataua would be an "uncle' to Karetai. However, Te Matenga Taiaroa was a grandson of Kohana, the daughter of Hineuru and Tutemakohu ( a Korekore. Not the famous one). This Kohana and Te Rakipataua were first cousins since both stem from Takaoteraki, the grandfather. That maybe the connection, but not with Karetai senior. Te Pananehu is my tipuna. He was the local rangatira at the Waitaki River mouth. His brother is Te Rakipataua. These Kati Huirapa ancestors stem from a whanau that were the chiefs of South Canterbury. Their first cousin Te Matehaere was said by Tame Parata to be the chief of North Otago up to the south side of the Waitaki River. It is also said Te Matehaere fought his way from the Haast Pass all the way up the West Coast. He married two Kati Mamoe/Patea sisters about this time who were relations to Te Kupukupu mentioned earlier. I also believe he married two younger women based at Waikouaiti.His father Tamahika campaigned at Kaka Point in South Otago and Lake Wakatipu. Tamahika's nephew Tuawhe campaigned also at Wakatipu and Te Anau where he drowned, as told, at the outlet of that lake. These are my Kati Huirapa ancestors.
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thats great because the whakapapa i have shows
Te Korako ia moe Te Rahonui
ka puta ko
1. Kurukuru ia Te Wera
2. Takihaka ia Kaahu
secondly i dont have a whakapapa for Te Ihupuku, do you know of one ?. The one i'm looking for is male. Interesting tho how the Korako name is prevalent in this line. The parents of Kiwi, Tunapuhia ia Korako and a Korako each in both of Kiwi's 'marriages'
thanks again
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Hi, I am researching my children's family tree. They are descendants of James Loder Saunders & Pere Kapu (through Emma Saunders & Thomas Heath; Thomas & Janet (Heath) Stokes; John & Janet (Stokes) Young; Rewa John & Mere Kihimete (Woon) Young). I would love to fill in the gaps for them and would really like to see any photographs or documents that might be available. Pere & James are their great, great, great, great, great Grandparents. In particular would love more information on Pere Kapu as I haven't been able to find a lot of information until I stumbled upon this link, which is amazing. Thank you :)
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Hi. Just wondering if you have any further info on James Saunders or Pere Kapu. Cheers
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There's a mention here of "Jimmy the Needle" as a passenger from Tasmania
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ESD19190502.2.89
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:) Thanks for that
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Kia ora Loveden
I have a query about the tipuna Motoitoi, daughter of Mahora
I have 3 Motoitoi
1 married to Driver at Purakanui, previously Omaui (where she lived with her brother Hape Tiere)
1 named Irihapeti Motoitoi who I have as an uri of Hoani Kahu; not the same one above as is claimed online ? and Motoitoi Dallas, who is different again.
as always any help gratefully received
Nga mihi
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(Kati Mamoe) Hinetauhara = Maika (Kati Mamoe and Ngati Kahungunu)
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(Kati Mamoe) Rakanuku = Tutekawa
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Te Atawhiua = Tupuku
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Koa = Kiritekateka (her tribe/iwi was Waitaha)
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Te Maiwerohia =Tamakitahaka Te Korerehu = Te Rakiamoa
|___ _____________________|
| | |
Kiraho = Hokotuna Tanemahuta = Moko
| ______________________|
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Pukukea = Tawhirimatea
____________________|___________________________
| | |
Mahaki =Titope Tahapa= Poihaka Poutoa = Titope
___________|____________ | |
| | Rauahiahi = Kawa Pakote
# Romia Harper 2nd = Pakinui = 1st Marten
________|______________
| |
Tame Teo =Peti Wixon
Tēnā koe Lovden!
Your whakapapa knowledge is incredible. Thankyou for what you have shared here. I would like to ask for your help. I have just started on my whakapapa journey and to start I am looking for information on Willam Harpur and Mere Titope Pakinui who I see you know about well. Specifically their daughter Jane Harpur (b:1862) and her 1st husband Arthur Gibbs (b. 1851, Derbyshire, England). They were married c. 1877. and together they had a son Named Arthur Albert Gibbs (b. 1878). They had four more boys before each remarrying - Jane to Alexander McIntosh c. 1866 and Arthur to Elizabeth Pascoe c. 1898.
My question is do you have any specific information regarding This branch?
William = Pakinui
|_______|
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Jane Harpur = Albert Gibbs
|___________|
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Arthur Albert Gibbs
Unfortunately I am unable to ask my whanau about this whakapapa as they are no longer with us.
I really appreciate your time and any information is accepted and treasured with aroha.
Nga mihi
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Kia ora. I am looking for information on Kiwi Korako, who married James Rickus at Otago Heads in 1846. Their son, Tiemi Rickus was born 1846 and later moved o Arowhenua. Is Korako-nui's sister "Korako-wahine" the same person as Kiwi Korako? Did this Kiwi later marry Te Ihupuku? Thank you.
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Aroha mai. Looking at my notes again, it seems I got my timelines blurred.
I am interested to learn if Korako Kiwi is the granddaughter/daughter of Korakonui - or how/if she is related.
Korako Kiwi's parents are identified as Kiwi and Wakawa. This Kiwi may be the one who married Te Ihupuku - the son of Korakonui? And Korako Kiwi may be the daughter of this Kiwi via his second or third marriage to Makawa (not Te Ihupuku)?
Korako kiwi married James Rickus and had 4 children, including daughters Maata & Merehana, who may be the Mata & Hana you identify as mokopuna for Korakonui? (Korako Kiwi's son Tiemi Taare Rickus was born in Dunedin but returned to Arowhenua later in life.)
Would be grateful for any light you can shed on this.
Nga mihi.
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Korako Kiwi's mother was Makawa (or Makawara) not Wakara. (Fat finger, sorry.)
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Tena koe
I have found a reference to Te Rakipataua passing away in Otakou is that correct ?? If so why was Koroko-nui living there ? Wasn’t he from
Arowhenua ?
Kia ora
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Tena koe
I am looking for a genealogy/whakapapa for Kurahaukapua who was married to Tutemakohu I
ka mihi
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Kia ora Waitahaariki.
Koroko-nui was living in Waikouaiti, I believe. I'm not sure why Te Rakipataua was in Otakou but he died there, reportedly. Koroko-nui paid a koha for Te Rakipataua's burial and this putea, according to Tare Wetere te Kahu, was why Taiaroa and Karetai invited him (Koroko-nui) to be present at the sale of the Otago Block.
There's some really interesting info on this in Commissioner McKay's Report on the Middle Island Native Claims: https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/imageserver/parliamentary/P29pZD1BSkhSMTg5MS1JSS4yLjIuNS4xMiZnZXRwZGY9dHJ1ZQ==
Have a look at p. 39. Super interesting.
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Kia ora
I see you have mentioned Hapu of Pakinui as Moruka and possibly Huirapa. Were there others listed? And where can I find information on the 1879 census you mentioned? I understood Pakinui was a refugee from Kaiapoi after Te Rauparaha came. Where did her parents Makahi and Titope come from? What were their Hapu? I would dearly appreciate any help or advice you can offer.
Thanks!