RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Suffolk Lookup Requests => Suffolk => England => Suffolk Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: hmserge on Friday 17 October 08 16:19 BST (UK)
-
Hi,
I now think that Angelina's mother was called Sophia. Both Angelina and Sophia were born in Bury, Suffolk? Is there anyone who could check the Bury Parish Records for a baptism for Angelina Mower? She was born around 1829. I think the father maybe called Frederick Mower, but this is what I am trying to find out.
Please help.
~~~~~~~~--------------
I have details for Angelina Mower born about 1829 Bury, Suffolk. She married an Ebenezer Serjeant and then lived in Ipswich.
I have a copy of her marriage certificate to Ebenezer and it states her father's name and occupation.
He was Frederick Mower and a carpenter and was living in Ipswich in 1846.
I cannot find any details on census or anything of a Frederick Mower. There are 2 on the familysearch site with birth's around the right time, but one is from London, the other from Devon. I cannot find a census for 1841 for him or for Angelina Mower (this is the only census I have missing for her). I've tried various spellings of Mower and Frederick.
Could anyone help me?
I would love to know details of him (census) and his wife's name.
Thank you
-
at first pass thru indeed a mystery !
He was Frederick Mower and a carpenter and was living in Ipswich in 1846.
are you basing his 1846 whereabouts on a Marriage Cert - even if it didnt say deceased, he may have been ...
strange theres no sign of them in 1841 ! and in fact the forename Ang*[elina] born +/- 5 years Bury doesnt produce hits at all for me ...
In which census does she state Bury as her PoB ?
-
I cant find Angelina on the 1841 census - before even thinking about the father she named on her marriage cert! There are several Angelina's in Suffolk, but none looking like Mower. So there is always a chance that George had died and her mum remarried and she is recorded under a different name, or some other such scenario.
Who are the witnesses on the marriage? have you got her in all the censuses after her marriage (just in case a rellie helpfully comes to stay over census night)?
hi Newf - we are working on the same lines again - tho' I got lots of Angelinas in Suffolk!!!!
-
I think Angelina is here in 1841.
HO107/685/21 = Marylebone, St. Pancras
Folio 20, Page 34.
transcribed on Ancestry as NUWER. ::)
-
Good one.
well done!
-
Hi
Thank you for all your replies and help, this is much appreciated.
I have a copy of the marriage certificate for Angelina Mower who married Ebenezer Serjeant on the 13th August 1846 in Ipswich.
Her father was Frederick Mower a carpenter. He may well have been deceased by this time.
The witnesses were Hannah Serjeant (Ebenezer's mother) and a William Read who I've no idea is.
I have copies of census from 1851 onwards, when she was married , but the 1841 missing.
I've just noticed your post on an Angelina Nuwer in Marleybone? How do I find this information and do you think it could be her?
Sorry if I'm not much help.
Thanks again
:)
-
Lordy, they took some flushing out in 1851 - hats off to you for that !
Conn Gelean Sergent 23 Married born Bury
James Sergent 2 son
was Ebenezer the 25 year old Coach Maker up in Derbyshire ?
anyways, looks like you might have a result from Sue !
-
Yes Ebenezer was the coach maker in Derbyshire (not sure why he went there though).
Do you all think that Angelina Nuwer in Marylebone is Angelina Mower from Ipswich?
Just wondering what she was doing in London? There is a Frederick Mower who was born in London somewhere.. I wonder if it is him?
Anymore help on finding Frederick Mower is much appreciated.
Thank you
-
it cant be said for certain, but all the indications are good - 'Not born in County', age etc - and the name is somewhat unique at that time.
Its not been possible (in the 1841) to tell if Fred was still around tho - and link to that family group...... have you looked for deaths ?
-
The 1841 reads
MOWER
Sophia - 30 - dressmaker - not born in county
Angelina - 13 - nbic
Susanne - 6 months - born in county
There is a possible Sophia in Ipswich in 1851, but she 10 years older, has a daughter of the right age, but different name. Sophias occupation is the same and in 1851 this Sophia is unmarried.
-
Thank you so much for your help. There are some fantastic, helpful people on here :)
Okay, how do I go about trying to trace a Frederick Mower? Or should I maybe search the Frederick Mower from London?
-
Could be Angelina was telling porkies and made up a father. There isn't any possible marriages on the Suffolk Marriage Index 1813-37 for a Frederick Mower.
:'(
-
In 1861 the same Sophia Mower puts her age at 54. ::)
Sophia burial.
Sophia MOWER
Date of burial: 18 Dec 1865
Age at death: 64
Calculated year of birth: 1801
Place of burial: Ipswich Cemetery
-
naughty Angelina if she was telling porkies lol.
erm.. I found a Frederick Mower born 1807, Christ Church, Southwark, London.. do you think this could be Angelina's father? If she wasn't lying?
maybe he married Sophia in London area?
Confused ::)
-
oh thank you.. this Sophia Mower, sounds like the right Sophia.
Ipswich Cemetery does sound like the correct place for burial in the family.
Maybe Fred died when Angelina was young, or maybe there never was a Fred, maybe it was the fred in London, or maybe they never married and he even did a runner lol.
-
Anythings possible, but trying to find the proof.
I am pretty sure the Sophia in London 1841 is the same Sophia in Ipswich in 1851. What I can't make out is why the baby Susanna changes her name to Adelaide in 1851 and beyond, unless she had two names.
Very confused.
Wonder what others thoughts are on the subject.
:'( :'(
-
I wouldnt try to go to far ahead at this stage, hmserge
If you make any assumptions tou can go carrering off spending a lot of time and money on the wrong track.
There is certainly a lot to get to the bottom of first with Angelina/Sophia and co.
I cant find a birth reg for either Susan(na) Mower (6 mths in1841) or Adelaid(e) Mower (10 in 1851) who are the girls with the possible Sophias. I know 1840/41 was early days for Civil Registration and not all managed to get round to it....
-
Its not been possible (in the 1841) to tell if Fred was still around tho - and link to that family group...... have you looked for deaths ?
-
Also as 1841 doesn't give relationships, we can't be sure that Sophia is Angelinas mother. There is a big gap between Angelina and Susanna.
-
It's getting more weirder and stranger by the minute lol.
I haven't checked for death's for a Frederick yet.
I'm just confused why Angelina, Sophia etc would be in London in 1841. Wonder who they were visiting?
-
Just looking at the 1861 - have we had it before? I think we mentioned it but not listed it out:
RG9 1166 30 8
David Beaumont 24 Carter bn Wenham
Adelaide " 20 bn Ipswich
Sophia Mower 54 widow mother-in-law bn bury St Ed
so Sophia calls herself a widow, and Adelaide is still Adelaide born in Suffolk - but like you, Sue, I would say there is a fair chance she is the same as Susan born in Middlesex....
-
For what it is worth - here is Adelaide's marriage
Ap/MAy/Jun 1860
Ipswich reg distr
ref 4a 954
Adelaide Mower
one of grooms on page David Beaumont
( I wonder who she put as father on her marriage cert?)
-
I've just looked at the 1851 for Sophia Mower.
It does look like the right person for Angelina's mother. The reason is that St Clement / St Matthew, does appear to be the areas that Angelina lived with her husband.. so maybe that was why her mother lived there too? It also says that Angelina was born in Bury, and it states the same for Sophia
-
Oh what a great thought.. the father of Adelaide? I wonder who she put?
-
What we need is someone with access to Bury St Ed parish registers for 1829 ish (I'm not sure how many parishes come under Bury, though) to see if there is any chrsitening for Angelina.
-
I've just looked at the 1851 census again... and the address is Rope Walk, on the marriage certificate for Angelina it states that she is living at Rope Walk. :o
-
What we need is someone with access to Bury St Ed parish registers for 1829 ish (I'm not sure how many parishes come under Bury, though) to see if there is any chrsitening for Angelina.
The main churches are St. James and St. Mary, but there are a few independents.
-
It would be great if we could find the christening details for angelina.
I'm not sure how you all seem to get this information so quickly, but it's great.
I wonder who would have parish record details for Bury?
thank you all again
-
I've just looked at the 1851 census again... and the address is Rope Walk, on the marriage certificate for Angelina it states that she is living at Rope Walk. :o
well done - another indication that we are on to the right track with this Sophia/Adelaide family
Addresses on certs can be so useful for confirming things like that.
-
I wonder who would have parish record details for Bury?
I guess they are at the Sufflok Record Office - I dont know it myself at all. So if you fancy a holiday in Suffolk....... ! Or a Rootschatter from that area might know if they do look ups, or may be going themselves.....
-
Do you think that the Frederick Mower on the marriage certificate is her dad, but maybe died when she was young?
Or do you think he is the Frederick Mower in Southwark, London area?
-
We just dont know what the situaiton is at present. Angelina gave Frederick Mower as the name of her dad when she married. That is all we know.
We have not found any more evidence of Frederick as Angelina's dad - like the family all together on a census or a christeneing record of Angelina naming him, or a marriage record of her parents etc. This is made more difficult by the fact that it is pre1837.
So at the moment all we have is Angelina's word. If Angelina was illegitimate she could have made up a father's name for her marriage cert. Or if her real father remarried she could have used a step fathers name. Or ... anything....
It may be straightforward - Frederick married Sophia and they have a dtr Angelina then 10 yrs later a dtr Adelaide but he dies soon after - but we have found NO evidence to back that up yet. Or it may not be.
Only when we are sure that Frederick a) exists and b) is Angelina's father can you safely start looking to see which Frederick Mower he is. At the moment i si too risky to start pursuing a Fred. Mower born in Southwark - he could be a complete red herring.
Got to look for a chr. record for Angelina next . in my humble opinion.
-
Thanks for replying.
I managed to get in touch with someone who had copies of the parish records for 2 different churches in Bury.. she checked for me, but said she couldn't find any Angelina. :(
I'm not sure how to find which other Parishes in Bury there are or there were back then.
Maybe I should look on the lines of Sophia Mower's marriage etc? But how do I find out which Mower she married?
thanks again
-
I guess another possibility (given the age gap between Angelina and Adelaide) is that Angelina was born before Sophia's marriage to Frederick Mower, and so she would have been christened using Sophia's maiden name, or if from a previous marriage then that man's surname.
Did the person look just for Angelina Mower or are you confident they would have spotted any Angelina anythings?
(this thread is getting quite confusing as I see the title has changed and more added to the origiinal request - so the reading of it through does not quite follow!)
-
I've just messaged the lady who did the search, to see if she can search for any Angelina, hopefully if she has the time she might be able to do this. I will let you know if I hear anything.
If I were to search for Sophia's marriage to a Mower, how would I go about this?
Thanks for your help
:)
-
Don't forget that we can't be absolutely certain at this stage that Sophia was Angelinas mother.
-
The whole Angelina/Frederick saga is so confusing.
I still can't understand why Angelina would put down a Frederick Mower (carpenter) as her father on her marriage certificate. She definitely had down living at Rope Walk, which is where Sophia was living.. so it could be her mother?
Confusing lol ???
-
Don't forget that we can't be absolutely certain at this stage that Sophia was Angelinas mother.
Good point - although the address helps link Angelina to Sophia and Adelaide, we have no evidence that Sophia was Angelina's mother.
-
I've looked at the marriage certificate again... the only witnesses were a Hannah Serjeant (her mother in law) and a William Read? Wonder who the William Read was?
I still can't understand why she would name a Frederick Mower as the father, wouldn't it have been better to have left it blank? Not sure what they did in those days.
thanks for all your help again ;)
-
Illegitimacy held more of a stigma in those days. It was not uncommon for someone who was illegitimate to make up a father rather than leave that part of their marriage cert blank. It was also not uncommon for someone to give the name of the person who had been a father to them (eg a stepfather or even a grandfather).
We do not know if this is the case with Angelina - Frederick may indeed be her father. or not. We just dont have anything prooved about her parentage. We know she was living with Sophia in 1841 that is all - Sophia may be an aunt or cousin or other rellie.
I am sure you will get this sorted one day - but it may take a long time approaching it from different angles and following all sorts of leads. For example you could get Sophia's death cert - I dont imagine it will help - if she was living with Adelaide and her hubby I would imagine that one of them registered it. But you never know - if Angelina happenend to register it and is recorded as "daughter" or otherwise, that would confirm her relationship with Sophia. But that is a small chance and you may not consider it worth spending £7 on. Likewise Adelaide's marriage cert may or not help, we said it would be interesting to see who she names as her father....again it is up to you as to whether you wish to spend £7 on that lead.
-
There is an Angelina Cudby christened in November 1829 at one of the Parishes in Bury.
Her parents were recorded as a John Cudby and Mary Ann Cook.
Not sure if this is the same Angelina though.
I've paid the £7 today for a copy of the marriage certificate for Adelaide Mower, hopefully sometime mid next week I should receive a copy .. fingers crossed, and I will let you know the outcome of her father's name.
:)
-
Hi,
Just to let you know that the copy marriage certificate for Adelaide arrived today. (which was extremely quick).
The witnesses were Angelina Serjeant and Ebenezer Serjeant :o , and the father of Adelaide was a WILLIAM MOWER, labourer. Adelaide's address is Hill Street, St Helen, Ipswich.
So the father is William Mower... do you think that William is Frederick Mower?
::)
-
The first thing about this cert is good news - it finally confirms for sure that we are on to the right family with the Sophia/Angelina/Adelaide lot - as it links your Angelina (who you know married Ebenezer Seargent, that was your starting point) with the Adelaide who appears as a daughter to the Sophia. If I remember rightly we have never seen Angelina described as Sophia's daughter (will have to read back through thread to be 100%sure).
So - Adelaide says HER father was a William Mower! Is this a porkypie to cover illegitimacy - but she chose a different name to Angelina? Or was her father actually a William Mower who for some reason (dead or otherwise) was not with the family in 1841. Angelina could be a niece, her dad Frederick being William's brother or something like that and everyone was indeed telling the truth. Still sooooo many possibiliites. onwards and Upwards though, we will get there!!!
-
I think Angelina was on a census (probably 1841) with Sophia and Adelaide, but they were in London somewhere, but definitely the same family. (not sure why they would be in London though, that's another puzzle).
I'm wondering if there is anyway of trying to trace a William Mower (probably from Ipswich and probs born around 1800 ish?). Maybe he was called William Frederick Mower, but used Frederick in the early days, but then again, maybe they were both made up names.
If they were made up names, why would she make the names up.. using her surname? especially with witnesses being family.
I really don't know, and am so confused with the Angelina Saga lol. ???
Should I try to find a William Mower?
-
I think Angelina was on a census (probably 1841) with Sophia and Adelaide, but they were in London somewhere, but definitely the same family. (not sure why they would be in London though, that's another puzzle).
yes- but 1841 does not have relationships, so we still do not know if Angelina is a daughter of Sophia or not.
I have had a quick look on freeBMD at marriages, and on the IGI, but cant see any William Mower marrying a Sophia in Suffolk.
Still a mystery.
-
Sue mentioned that maybe Sophia had something to hide.. big time! seen as though she was recorded living in London in 1841 with Angelina and a very young baby. Also the baby was then Susannah and later she appears as Adelaide.
Very mysterious and confusing.
Not sure what line to take now.
Thanks for looking :)
-
There aren't any William Mowers married to a Sophia pre 1837 in Suffolk either.
I think the next move (and sorry Heidi for getting you to spend your money) would be to get Sophias death cert to see if she was widowed or unmarried, but then again lies may have been told.
:'( :'(
-
Agreed
At present that is the only other available source that we have for anyone in this family!
-
Hi Sue,
If you think that a death certificate for Sophia is the next correct move, then I will have to think about doing that.
How do I find the details of her death, like the numbers that were needed for the marriage certificate?
:)
-
Oct/Nov/Dec 1865
ipswich reg district
ref 4a 377
Sophia Mower
(we had her burial on page 1 of this thread, I have just got the death index details from freeBMD)
-
Thank you for that Liz :)
I will have to think about getting a copy asap.
Would be great to hopefully solve the mystery of the Mowers someday soon
-
someday - maybe
soon - dont hold your breath!
I have had family history mysteries that remain unsolved for many years. Sometimes some little snippet of info suddenly comes up - a mention in someones will, a finding on a census or parish register or other document, an inscription on a headstone - quite out of the blue and it suddenly starts gradually piecing together. Sometimes they are still unsolved after many a year.
It is a case of following up any lead, however small.
And as we have said, I think Sophia's death cert is the only lead at present!
-
I'll let you know if I send off for a copy certificate and when it arrives :)
-
More fuel for the fire?
George Everard Mower born March 15 Christened March 22 1825
St Mary in Bury Saint Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Only a mother listed as Sophia Mower
http://search.labs.familysearch.org
-
Hi J.J.
I've just noticed your reply and wanted to say thank you. Sorry I haven't replied sooner.
Sophia Mower seems to have been a mysterious woman :o It looks like George Everard Mower could well be a son of Sophia.
Thanks for finding this information for me, much appreciated.
I never found a husband for Sophia, and have a feeling that she made up the names Frederick and William Mower as the 'father' of her two daughters, and with George Everard having no father's name too............. ::) I also never figured out why she was in London in 1845 with her 2 daughters. Very strange
Just found a Frederick Moore born 1810 Suffolk and in 1861 he is on a sea Vessel in Essex and is listed as married ::) could be the Frederick Mower but then again maybe not
Thanks again for your time and I will look into George Everard Mower.
Best wishes
Heidi :)
-
Heidi, did you ever get Sophias death cert as this would probably tell you whether she was wife/widow of whoever or whether she really was unmarried.
-
Unfortunately the death cert information is given by the children or others if they aren't around, so that info may not be valid either. If all they ever heard their mother say is that she was a widow, then that's what they'll put down, true or not... If you can afford it, though, it's still is good to have it... Never know if some other info might pan out. The ladies also may indeed have had 2 different fathers, one, Frederick something, the other William something ( if they both belong to Sophia)...so far there don't seem to be any births for either of them? tough going as there are so many areas to consider looking which may never pan out! Did you look for a will?
If Sophia was born a Mower, there is a Sophia born 1785 Cockfield,Sfk...but there are also few births for St. Edmunds Bury under Mower around the turn of the century... I see there are parents John & Susan (Thaine) Mower. There is no Sophia born to them, but she may have been and used a middle name...but how to look back then if no census marriage or death available to follow them through?...
St. James/St. Edmunds was a Catholic church, I think? One had to be baptized named after a Catholic saint. So the name Susan may have only been given at birth or Christening...The name Mary is used for a lot of births/Christenings for obvious reasons, then middle names may have been used later in life. We have the same problem looking for all the Mary born in Quebec, Canada. Makes it hard to follow if the middle name isn't used.
Wish you luck with this project...Sophia's a slippery one J.J.
Mind you it just occurred to me that even now some Catholic priests refuse to baptize babies born out of wedlock, so it was probably harder back then...
George Everard Mower...wonder what happened to him? Was Sophia old enough to have him? depends on the death or the census being true age... It also brings to mind that Angelina herself was old enough to bear children, so another consideration for the stew pot. heehee, no help at all am I?
-
Hi,
Sorry but I didn't round to getting Sophia's death certificate, but now that I'm back on the case of Sophia, I think I will ;)
Thanks for all your comments and research on Sophia. As far as I can remember on Angelina's birth certificate her father was Frederick Mower and on Adelaide's birth cert. it was George Mower. I think she always listed Bury St Edmunds as her birth place and around 1801 for her birth year. It makes you wonder about John and Susan Mower as parents as Adelaide was once called Susannah on the census in 1841. I wonder why her name was changed (if it was) to Adelaide? Not sure what happened to George Everard but I can't find anything for him apart from the birth.
Sophia's story sure is a mysterious and puzzling one :-\
But thank you both for your help and advice
Heidi
-
Hi All,
I have received the copy of Sophia's death certificate today and thought I would let you know what it says.
This still gives no details of whether she was widow etc, all it says is:
Died on 14th December 1865 at Wolsey Court, Ipswich, Sophia Mower female age 64 years. Occupation looks like Needle woman :-\ Cause of death Ch. bronchitis 14 years certified. Signature of informant was the mark of Rachel Wardley in attendance of Long Lane, Ipswich. Registered on 18th December 1865.
It is a shame that it doesn't give any further information on Sophia, but then again it's a nice document to keep ;)
Heidi
-
The following quote mentions a 'William Read'. Please have a look at www.lostbrig.net and use 'search'. William Read was a well know Ipswich shipowner and shipbuilder who was the last owner of the brig Elizabeth Jane registered at Ipswich from 1830 until 1854 when she was lost off Robin Hood's Bay. Read might have employed a carpenter and might have 'stood-in' for the father; perhaps because he was at sea, or had died?
I'd be grateful learn more about this man and his life.
Best wishes SG.
I've looked at the marriage certificate again... the only witnesses were a Hannah Serjeant (her mother in law) and a William Read? Wonder who the William Read was?
I still can't understand why she would name a Frederick Mower as the father, wouldn't it have been better to have left it blank? Not sure what they did in those days.
thanks for all your help again ;)
-
Hello SG,
Thank you for your reply and for the information about William Read. This could well be the same William Read in Ipswich. I know some of the family were based or worked around Orwell but not sure what they did.
I have had a quick look at the website and it looks very interesting so I will have a more detailed read later.
It would be great if I could find out more about him :)
Many thanks once again.
Best wishes
Heidi
-
Thank you Heidi,
If you do find that he's 'my' William Read, please tell me the story of those you mention so I can write something for my 'lostbrig.net' site. William Read was an 'interesting' character, more than once in trouble; including being accused of deliberately sinking one of his vessels - but he was also a pioneering builder of steam vessels.
From his will I worked out a family tree. Perhaps there might be a name you recognise?
http://www.lostbrig.net/read_and_page/william_read_family_tree.pdf
Best wishes,
Steve.
-
Hello Steve,
Thanks for your reply.
I haven't managed to check the tree yet or to find anything more for William Read, but if I get chance at the weekend I will take a look and get back to you.
It would be great if I could find a connection, I did wonder who the 'William Read' could be.
Best wishes
Heidi :)