RootsChat.Com
Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Denbighshire => Topic started by: purplekat on Tuesday 27 January 09 14:05 GMT (UK)
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Hi folks
My ggg grandfather, William Vaughan was a head farmer of 40 acres at Cil Bach, Llangedwyn/Llangedwin , I have census returns showing that he, (and after his death, his family), lived here from 1841 until 1901, (by 1901 they were the Jones family).
Can anyone tell me if Cil Bach was a farmhouse and if so does it still exist?
Thank you
Jean :)
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Hi there,
I may be able to help you when I return to work as I am able to do some searching on a couple of databases. Unfortunately, for you anyway, I'm off work until something like the 8th Feb.
However, have you had a look at maps on line?. If you go to www.old-maps.co.uk (http://www.old-maps.co.uk) and search on Cil Bach, it brings up one property which is near Meifod, Powys. This is not too far from Llangedwyn and if you look at map number six, which is dated 1953, then Cil Bach is shown.
I see no reson for it not to exist now and I guess it was a farm. The name means small corner/retreat.
Good luck with your research.
:)
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Hi Llywd
Thanks for the info I'll check out the old maps site. I love the translation of the name, it sounds like a lovely place but I bet it was hard work!
My gg grandmother didn't stay there she moved to Birkenhead but I know from census returns and marriage certificates that she kept in touch with her family in Wales.
Thanks again
Regards Jean :)
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Hi there again,
As promised and remembered, I have checked the database and it appears Cil Bach is still in existence and is being lived in.
:)
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Thanks Llwyd :)
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Hi folks
This thread caught my eye as some of my family were born in Llangedwyn/Llangedwin, one (still trying to verify the connection!) at Cil Bach in 1821 - Thomas Davies. By 1823 the family had moved to Tynyrhos, further down the road.
Following on from Llwyd's suggestion, there is another possibility for the location of Cil Bach. If you try the old maps website again and search on 'Cil Mawr', it finds one in Llangedwyn and right next to it is Cil Bach......
By the way, I have a direct ancestor in my tree: Mary Vaughan bap 25th Dec 1790, Llangedwin, parents Edward and Margaret (nee Jones) - any connection?
Best wishes
Jane
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Hi Jane
Thanks for your help on the location of Cil Bach, I'll have another look at the old maps site with your advice in mind.
I have a direct ancestor called Mary Vaughan but from census returns I have her birth as approx 1806, as yet I do not know who her parents were.
She was married to William Vaughan and their daughter Margaret was my gg grandmother who married David Davies, a mason from Pembrokeshire in Birkenhead in 1859 and my g grandfather, William Thomas Davies was born in 1863.
William and Mary Vaughan had about 10 children, one of their sons was called Edward. The 1881 census shows that Mary was a widower and that one of her daughters, Hannah and her husband Thomas Jones were living at Cil Bach with her and four of her grandchildren.
(I notice from the 1871 and 1881 cenus that Jane and John Davies live at Tynyrhos).
I'm afraid I'll have to ask you the question you asked me about Mary Vaughan, do you think there is any connection?
Jean :)
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Hi Jean
Will have to check out the Vaughan connection later. There are so many in the area it's difficult to untangle them all and it's a part of the family I've not done much work on.
I thought I'd just make a quick check on photos I took last year when attending a family wedding in Llangedwin. I live quite a long way from there and, of course, couldn't miss the opportunity to take photos of any graves I thought I might have a connection with to work on later. (Everyone else was taking photos of the bride, groom and guests whilst I was hopping about the graveyard in all my wedding gear frantically photoing graves!! :)) Anyway, I have a photo of the grave of a William Vaughan of Cil Bach if you're interested. The year of death is a bit difficult to make out but it looks like 1861 aged 66yrs. Let me know if you want this.......
Best wishes
Jane
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Hi Jane
(Everyone else was taking photos of the bride, groom and guests whilst I was hopping about the graveyard in all my wedding gear frantically photoing graves!! )
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I like your style - I can just picture it, I bet most rootschatters can empathise :D
I would love a copy of William Vaughan's grave photo, I can pm you with my email address unless you would rather post it on rootschat
Thank you
Jean :)
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Hi Jean
I haven't uploaded a photo before but here goes....... I've had to resize it so it might be better if you sent me your email address so I can send a larger version direct. I've found one or two other Vaughan graves also, so I'll send you the lot.
Jane
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Hi Jane
Thanks for posting the photo, I've also pm'd you with my email address.
The graveyard looks lovely and peaceful and well kept, is the church it's in called St Cedwyn? I've got a picture of St Cedwyn from the genuki website.
Thanks again
Jean :)
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Hi Jane,
I wonder if you took a photo of my Aunt and Uncle's headstone when you were busy after the wedding. She was Flora MacDonald (1897 - 1975) and he was the Rev. Thomas Cowan Davies (died 30th Mar. 1948). If so, I'd love a copy. I used to have one until last year when I lost it in a computer crash, so if you can send me one I'd be very grateful. If you can I'll PM you my address.
Regards, Alastairgm
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Hi Alastair
I haven't got a picture of this grave, but I intend to go back to the area some time this year and will gladly take one for you. Have you any idea whereabouts in the graveyard the headstone is?
Best wishes
Jane
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Hello, I was just browsing the net and came across your Chat.
I was brought up on the farm that now encompasses Cil Bach - which is the neighbouring farm (literally across the road) Cil Mawr ( Mawr means big)
My brother still lives on and farms the land.
Unfortunately the house has been knocked down many years ago and is now replaced by a modern steel framed cow & sheep shed. The one part that remains is the original back ( North) wall and from memory the bread oven that would have been on the NW corner of the old house.
If you would like a piece of the original house let me know and I will get a piece next time I visit my brother ( probably over New Year).
If you have any more questions ( including regarding relatives ) let me know as if your family are still in the farming community then my brother will probably know them as it is very close nit in that part of Wales especially in the Welsh speaking community - we are 1st language Welsh ( Cymraeg)
I hope this helps
Nadolig llawen a Blwyddyn Newydd Dda as we say yn Gymraeg. ( Merry Xmas and Happy New Year).
Geraint Williams
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Hello Geraint
Jean here, I started this thread with the question about Cil Bach, it's great to hear from you. Thank you for answering my original question about the farm. Maybe your brother will know if anyone living nearby is descended from the Vaughan family or the Jones family who farmed there in later years and were descended from the Vaughan family. My gg grandmother had moved to Birkenhead by 1859 so non of my direct family still live there but I would be happy to hear if i have any second or third cousins etc in the area.
I would love a piece of the original house if possible, thank you so much for the offer, and thanks for the Christmas and New Year wishes in Welsh, I know from the census that my ancestors spoke Welsh as their 1st language.
I will have to go now as visitors have arrived, have a Happy Christmas and New Year
Jean :)
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Hello Jean et al,
I have just read your chat re ancestors in Llangedwyn.
My ggg/grandfather Lewis Thomas was married to Maria on 11/10/1813 at Llanrhaedr-ym-Mochnant and shows his occupation and address as 'Farmer Cil Fach, Llangedwin'. They subsequently had a child James in 1814, baptised at Llanrhaedr and still living in Llangedwyn. Lewis and family moved to Liverpool sometime between 1814 and 1825, but I cannot trace any further info for them during this time.
My question - could Cil FACH be the same as Cil Bach as I can't trace any mention of Cil Fach on old maps? The time scale would fit with the info re Thomas Davies living there since 1821.
Any help or suggestions re further research would be very much appreciated!
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Hi Christine65
I think that Cil Fach and Cil Bach probably are the same place but hopefully Jane, (descendant of Thomas Davies), will see this post as she will probably be able to confirm it and give you further info.
Jean :)
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There are Vaughans living in the Llanrhaeadr area, two brothers acted in a film with Hugh Grant (A man who went up a hill but came down a mountain).
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Thanks Janey, that's interesting, I wonder if they're related to 'my' Vaughans. Next time the film is on TV I will watch it with renewed interest :)
Jean
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Hello, everyone,
I too am Looking at possible links with Cil Bach.
I am looking for my great great great Grandfather William Vaughan. who I had believed was living in Wrexham Wales.
His Son Samuel (my great great GF) left the family under a cloud of shame I believe, with an unmarried pregnancy and moved to London.
I can see from the William Vaughan that lived in Cilbach that 2 of his sons, were Print compositors which was the same vocation as Samuel when he came to london. So I am wondering if I have found my great great Grandfather, does anyone have any light they could shed on this.
p.s I learnt from another source that there was a William Vaughan Born 15th May 1793 to father Richard Vaughan a Farmer in Acton not far way with a wife Elizabeth. This William was baptised 17th June in Wrexham Parish church. William went on to marry a Mary JONES in 1816 on February 17th in the Parish of Llanrhydd near Ruthin which is about 16 miles from Wrexham (but I can't find any records YET!) I have found a Samuel who was born in 1824 in Little Acton, Wrexham which is next door to Acton.
On the 1851 census William and Mary are still together with many children but not Samuel. He was living in St.Mary Newington,Lambeth,London at 23,St.Davids Street to be exact and he is married to Maria who was born in Bermondsey and their two children William and Edward F. aged 2 an 5 months born in Horsley Down,Surrey and St.Mary Newington respectively.
I would love any pictures of the graves that would be amazing and if I can help anyone by return please ask.
Best wishes Samantha
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Hi Samantha
Welcome to rootschat, I will have a look through my notes when I have a chance to see if I can find a connection with your info - I'm just about to start some painting in my living room, but I will get back to you.
Jean :)
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Thats very kind of you, I have hit a brick wall with this one Hope the painting goes well
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Hi Samantha
I'm taking a break from painting so I had a look through my records to see if I could find any connections but I couldn't find one. My ggg grandfather William Vaughan was born in 1800 in Llangedwyn. He was a farmer and Cil Bach was the name of the farm. He had two sons Robert and Edward who I think worked on the farm. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find any connection with the names Richard or Samuel or with print compositors. Sorry about that. The find my past website has Welsh parish records that might be useful to you.
Jean
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Samantha
Just in case you have not seen it.this is perhaps the 1812 will of your Richard Vaughan of Acton:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0shm/
Regards
Roger
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Hi Samantha
Welcome to rootschat, I will have a look through my notes when I have a chance to see if I can find a connection with your info - I'm just about to start some painting in my living room, but I will get back to you.
Jean :)
Hi Jean
I am related to the Jones family who lived in Cilbach in the later part of the 19th century.
My relative was Thomas Jones who married Hannah Vaughan one of the daughters of William Vaughan.
The family moved to Wrexham in 1890 and although both died in 1922 they are both buried in Llangedwyn.
I have more info on the Vaughan family.
Regards
Derek
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Hi Derek
Welcome to rootschat. My great great grandmother was Hannah's sister Margaret Vaughan, she moved to Birkenhead and married David Davies.
It would be good if we could swap Vaughan info.
Thank you
Jean :)
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Hello Alastair,
I spent a lot of time during WWII staying with your aunt Dr Flora Macdonald and uncle Rev. Thomas Cowan Davies in Llangedwyn. Was your father Flora's brother? Do you have any other information about either of them? I'd also like to know what happened to their house - Llas Ucha(??)
Roxane
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Welcome to Rootschat
I think it is likely that the property you are interested in is Plas Uchaf.If I am right,it is currently a guest house.
Regards
Roger