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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Durham => Topic started by: Elz on Sunday 15 February 09 11:54 GMT (UK)
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My Grandad Robert Johnston married my Grandma Eleanor Sheehan in Whitehaven, Cumberland. Eleanor Sheehan was born (spelling?) c.1903, Seaham? died 2/3/62 in Whitehaven,Cumberland. She moved to and lived in Egremont, Cumberland because I worked there once and Grandad said he used to walk there and back to see her! He thought her family were from the North East and I have reason to believe it may have been Seaham? I know absolutely nothing of this side. I know she was a Catholic and I am guessing its an Irish surname? They had two children together (John and Joan). One of the strangest things...I moved to the north east and we frequently go to Seaham for the coast!
George Johnston b. c.1869 9 Little Scotland.
Annie Murray wife b. c.1871 m. c.1890?
Robert Johnston b.14/9/08 d. 31/1/93
ELEANOR SHEEHAN c.1903 m.Robert in? d.2/3/62
I would like to find any trace of the Sheehan family and find out what date she moved to Egremont.
Any help appreciated! Eleanor Johnston King, Durham UK
Cheers Elz x :-*
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Hi Elz
Welcome to RootsChat.
Do you know where Robert & Eleanor were married and what date?
Gary
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Sadly no. She was Catholic but I think this was kept quiet! So this may indicate a C of E church perhaps. I remember a church on the far side of Whitehaven town (as if you walk from town to Ginns) old and derelict and later demolished, United Reformed?, which I may have been christened in. May have been the family church? I think she was older than him and they married late in life in her early 40's perhaps?
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Elz
There are Sheehans in Sunderland & Hartlepool either side of Seaham. I can only find 2 Sheehan births with forename beginning E
Emily Sheehan 1907 Hartlepool
Ellen Sheehan 1910 Hartlepool
I think you need to track down her marriage certificate and get her fathers name.
Gary
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Hello Eliz
The marriage was in 1933, June Quarter Whitehaven 10b 1447
Eleanor Sheehan to Robert Johnston
Kind regards
Barbara
:)
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The death registration gives her age as 59, but that's the date given by the informant and could be incorrect. As Gary says, the marriage cert is the obvious next step
Barbara
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Elz,
Looking at the info you have, it seems as if most of it is based on family "oral history" ?
I can see the death registration of Eleanor, in March qtr, 1962. aged 59.
But as yet I cannot see other records that should show up to match your other info !
Although Seaham had many Irish ( including workers from County Sligo encouraged to work in Lord Londonderry's coal mines) Whitehaven had a larger Irish element. Like a smaller version of Liverpool, many Irish entered England in 1800s etc, via Whitehaven.
Is it possible that Eleanor was born in Ireland, not England ?
The name "Eleanor" is a variation of the name "Helen", but many Irish preferred the "Ellen" variation ?
You quote " George Johnston c. 1969 " Is that his death year ?
Michael Dixon
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There is this birth registration:
Mar 1903 Tynemouth 10b 203
Sheehan Ellen
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The marriage was in 1933, June Quarter Whitehaven 10b 1447
Eleanor Sheehan to Robert Johnston
Thanks Barbara, that confirms her name spelling! How did you find this? Ta Elz x
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From the full GRO index :)
The reason I mentioned that birth registration in Tynemouth, is that there's a family from Cumberland living there in 1901 - and maybe she came from Seaton not Seaham??
1901 RG13/4795 Folio 171 Page 26
30 Davis Street, Wallsend
SHEEHAN
John 28 Hewer
Elizabeth 28
John 4
Daniel 2
all born Cleator Moor Cumberland
Do either of the children's names ring a bell?
Best to get the marriage cert really, for father's name and occupation
Barbara :)
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Looking at the info you have, it seems as if most of it is based on family "oral history" ?
I can see the death registration of Eleanor, in March qtr, 1962. aged 59.
But as yet I cannot see other records that should show up to match your other info !
Although Seaham had many Irish ( including workers from County Sligo encouraged to work in Lord Londonderry's coal mines) Whitehaven had a larger Irish element. Like a smaller version of Liverpool, many Irish entered England in 1800s etc, via Whitehaven.
Is it possible that Eleanor was born in Ireland, not England ?
The name "Eleanor" is a variation of the name "Helen", but many Irish preferred the "Ellen" variation ?
You quote " George Johnston c. 1969 " Is that his death year ?
Yes its all word of mouth history. George was born around 1869, sorry my mistake. I think Eleanor was known as Eleanor, very loosly maybe Ellen but not Helen. She may well have been born in Ireland but Grandad was quite sure she was from a family once in Seaham area.
Thanks Michael, how did you find this out? Ta Elz x
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From the full GRO index :)
The reason I mentioned that birth registration in Tynemouth, is that there's a family from Cumberland living there in 1901 - and maybe she came from Seaton not Seaham??
Thanks Barbara, yes it is possible Seaton rather than Seaham which is something I had not considered because that is the town always mentioned, but may have been misheard. Cleator Moor is not far at all from Whitehaven or Egremont so that is a possibility too. I am going to get the marriage certificate then for fathers details. Cheers! Elz x
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No point guessing any more until you get the cert, please do come back and post the details on here then we'll see if we can help you further
Barbara :)
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And brush up on geogha... there is several communities in Northumberland and Durham called Seaton... if fact Seaton is a neighbour of Seaham.. you might even take the ocassional refresher in the Seaton Lane Inn.
Also there was/is a community called Seaton about 10 miles north of Whitehaven.
But as Barbara suggests, all will we hope be revealed when you get the marriage cert !
Michael Dixon
PS Are you asking where folk get their info to reply to message board queries ?
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And brush up on geogha...
Also there was/is a community called Seaton about 10 miles north of Whitehaven.
Quite right Michael, an interesting thought, must away and brush up my geog too!
(although Elz did say her grandad used to walk to & fro between Cumberland and the North East ....) :-\
Barbara :)
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I've ordered the marriage certificate! ;)
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Very good, please let us know the details when it arrives :)
Barbara
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While I am waiting for the marriage certificate to arrive... ive had a look at local sites and found the www.Durhamrecordsonline.com (http://www.Durhamrecordsonline.com)
and read a bit about Seaham. Seems the area is listed as Easington District and I thought it would have been Sunderland? Interesting anyway. Quite a few Sheehans, most born in Ireland.
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Hi Elz
As I mentioned before Sheehans either side of Seaham. Please do let us know what you glean from the certificate.
Gary
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Thanks Gary. Incidently I see you have Murrays in Cumberland. Ive just got to a Thomas Murray in 1853 in Whitehaven. Seems to be the step father of my great grandma. The GRO sent me back the money for her marriage certificate because I had put Murray as her surname. I did not know she was under her mothers maiden name. But I did put the correct record number down which they quoted back as correct. Charged me £3 for this!
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Hi Elz,
The GRO charge £3 for reference checking if you're not sure of some information, and that's included in the cert fee of £7 if the entry is correct. You must give one piece of information that you are sure will appear on the certificate and a certificate will only be issued if the entry they check matches the checking point you give them.
As you gave them the wrong surname for her, they charged you for looking ::)
It happened to me once when I mistyped the page number, even though I'd given both surnames, date, district and volume no. correctly - they sent £4 back and I had to re-order. Definitely need to be careful with details when you place an order and probably worth asking them to do a check.
I prefer to order from a local register office, who most likely would phone to see if they have the right cert before they send, if there's that kind of problem.
Barbara :)
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Excellent advice there, I will order from them in future. I guess I am learning with this search ::) I will be more prepared next time! Cant wait to get Eleanor's cert now, at least I got that right ;D
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Elz,
The boundary dividing the Sunderland and Easington Registration Districts was just south of Ryhope.
There are clues today to suggest whether Seaham was covered by Sunderland or Easington.
Seaham today lies in County Durham. Easington District lies in County Durham.
Sunderland does not. ( I won't stir folk up by saying that Sunderland like Newcastle , Gateshead , etc does not lie in any "county" ! )
And today Seaham lies within the jurisdiction of Easington District local authority ! To which you probably pay your Council Tax ?
But a clue that points the other way - but a false one, is that Seaham post codes prefix is SR, abbreviated from "Sunderland"
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Another factor to support Barbara's preference for using local ROs rather than GRO is that you have a chance of receiving a photocopy of the original registration, including your folk's actual writing, whereas GRO provide a copy of a copy . Sunderland provides photocopies of original. Don't know about Easington - six years since I obtained a cert from Easington
Michael
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Thanks Michael that is great information which will help me. It would be excellent for a chance to see the ancestors writing, so will remember not to go with GRO next time.
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Hi Elz
My GGG grandfather was John Murray c 1815 in Carlisle. I have not been able to take his line any further back :(
As you will know cumberland is a Murray hotspot.
Gary
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Robert and Eleanor's marriage certificate has just arrived! I feel really excited to be holding this new information!!! Marriage date 17/4/1933 Holy Trinity church Whitehaven. Eleanor Sheehan (sadly no DOB) Spinster, 39 Park View, Castle Croft, Egremont. Father John Sheehan Iron ore. I have been wondering what his name was! Also present Roberts sister Lily and Edward Sheehan who may be Eleanors brother or uncle? Its another name! I am really delighted and happy to have this information and wanted to share it with you. Elz x
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Hi Elz
Great news. At least now you have her fathers name & occupation that should help you narrow the field down a bit ;D
Gary
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Hi Elz,
Thanks for coming back with the marriage details. Wonder if the family I found in 1901 is the right one? That father John was a Hewer, which is usually coal mining, could he have been an iron ore worker later in Cumberland? Maybe they moved to Cumberland after the 1901 census?
There is a birth reg for an Edward Carver Sheehan Jun 1908 Whitehaven 10b 792
It may be worth asking Tynemouth register office to ask about the birth for the Ellen Sheehan 1903 I gave earlier, to see if her father was John.
Barbara
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Found this marriage: Mar 1896 Whitehaven 10b 863
Carver Eliza Ann Sheehan John
another birth reg, Edward's brother at a guess, maybe also Eleanor's?
Jun 1916 Whitehaven 10b 1335 Vincent SHEEHAN mother's maiden name CARVER
Have tried to find John and Eliza Ann in Whitehaven in 1901 without success. Did they go to Northumberland and then return later to Whitehaven?
It's tempting to think they married there 1896, had sons John 1897 and Daniel 1898 at Cleator Moor, then moved to Wallsend, had Eleanor (or Ellen) 1903 and then maybe moved back to have Edward then Vincent in Whitehaven area (Egremont and Cleator Moor both come under Whitehaven reg district)
Without birth certs this is conjecture of course, and the 1911 census will be a great help once it comes out for Northumberland and Cumberland
What do you think, Gary, or Michael?
Barbara :)
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Hi Barbara
I read your post with interest. It is very plausible. I only wish we had 1911 census for Durham/Northumberland then we could narrow it down. I have a gut feeling that the Edward as a witness was her brother, but again how can we prove it. I think if we find all the family in the 1911 census then we will get our answers. The mystery goes on. On a more positive note at least Elz has found another part of the jigsaw.
Gary
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Many thanks everyone for your detective work! My Grandmother Eleanor Sheehan had two children, John and Joan Elizabeth. After John and Eliza? Me and my brother HAD to be named after our grandparents. Do you think I should send off for John and Elizabeths marriage certificate? I was surprised the cert I got today didnt have their dates of births on!
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It may be worth asking Tynemouth register office to ask about the birth for the Ellen Sheehan 1903 I gave earlier, to see if her father was John.
I'd go for the above first, then wait a couple of months for the 1911 census
Barbara :)
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Elz
I would echo Barbara's post. I know curiosty will eat away at you but family history took 100s of years to establish so a few months is well worth the wait.
Gary
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Thanks I will wait for the cencus to come out, but I am so excited! :o I will try the Tynemouth connection first.
Is the Family Search site reliable or not? I have found an Elizabeth Ann Carver born about 1859 whitehaven, married to a John Carver. Its possible he died and she married John Sheehan in 1896 aged 37 ???
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Elz
The IGI or Familysearch is an excellent tool but like anything else, never believe it until you have seen it, and by seen it I mean the original document. I have come across some real howlers in the IGI.
Gary
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I have found an Elizabeth Ann Carver born about 1859 whitehaven, married to a John Carver. Its possible he died and she married John Sheehan in 1896 aged 37 ???
Now Elz! Don't get carried away with my earlier musings. :D
Elizabeth Ann born 1859 Whitehaven was married to John Carver
marriage reg Jun 1875 Whitehaven 10b 942
CARVER John PEMBERTON Elizabeth Ann
In the 1891 census John Carver is a farmer, wife Elizabeth and 7 children and sisterinlaw Mary E Pemberton were living in St.Bees Hensingham, Cumberland
They are still there in 1901
Definitely not the Elizabeth who married John Sheehan!!
They may have been the parents of the Eliza Ann who married a John Sheehan in 1896, but I can't see a daughter of that name with them in any census from 1881 onwards.
But none of them can be proved to be connected to your Eleanor without her birth certificate - first priority
Barbara
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Census 1881 (5191-19-31)
Ireland-born couple John/Sarah Sheehan, in Cleator, with five Cleator-born children including 7 yr old John.
Census 1891 ( 4319-51-41)
Same family, now in Egremont with 18 yr old John an IRON MINER
A John Sheehan death Sept/1895 Whitehaven, aged 56 ( he was 52 on C1891)
A Sarah Sheehan death Mar/1896 Whitehaven, aged 50 (she was 48 on C1891)
Then next the info from Barbara..
Census 1901 (4795-171-26) Wallsend ( within Tynemouth Reg District)
Married 28 yr old John Sheehan. born Cleator Moor, a coal hewer.
More corroboration required ! I would expect this John , if he is the "right" John, to name a daughter Sarah.. already named a son John !
Michael Dixon
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It's looking good, Michael, all we need now is Eleanor's birth cert to find the missing link :)
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And carrying on along Barbara's scenario... the marriage of a Daniel Sheehan , to an Elizabeth A Hall, was reg. in Whitehaven reg dist in Mar/1934.
So maybe the family did not stay long in Northumberland.
( I never liked the walking exploits of Elz's grandfather walking from Whitehaven to Seaham ( maybe once for a new love- but the hike there and back would have been an incentive to get a local girl ! )
Never mind the advent of 1911 census... I am desparate for the 1921 Blimey.
Michael Dixon
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Never mind the advent of 1911 census... I am desparate for the 1921 Blimey.
Some folk are never satisfied :D :D
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LOL thanks folks, I do tend to get carried away. Have orderd Eleanor's birth certificate and start the hunt from there. Not only did Grandad walk from Whitehaven to Egremont everyday, but he used to row Eleanor to the Isle of man for day trips! He was still riding his bike around Whitehaven aged 80 :o
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I hope you'll check first for her father's name and occupation - anyway please do come back and post the details, it would be great if all this speculation ties in, but if it doesn't, we can start again!
Barbara :)
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Oh do you need fathers occupation to apply for the actual certificate? I wasnt asked. Or do you mean that will be revealed when I get it?
(((Barbara, I was on Roseberry Topping recently, very windy, my dog slipped his lead and ran wild around the very top. Couldn't hear me shouting. Nightmare! Took a man with a mars bar to get him under control...I was beside myself. The same day, a man was blown off and killed.)))
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It may be worth asking Tynemouth register office to ask about the birth for the Ellen Sheehan 1903 I gave earlier, to see if her father was John.
Oh do you need fathers occupation to apply for the actual certificate? I wasnt asked. Or do you mean that will be revealed when I get it?
You don't need it, but I just suggested that you can check with them first for his name and occupation before buying the certificate to make sure it's the right one
(That pic was taken by my brother and made into a jigsaw for me - wish my missing family pieces fell into place as quickly!)
Barbara :)
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Just got Ellen Sheehan's birth certificate!!! Not sure if this is my one as a few things out of sync.
Her birth date is 22/11/1902 30 Davis Street Wallsend.
Father John Sheehan, Coal Miner.
Mother Eliza Sheehan formerly Carvel.
Registration district Tynemouth.
I am puzzled because this date would make her 31 on her marriage cert in April 1933 which states 30.
Also, I cannot find any trace of 'Eleanor' Sheehan as marriage cert. and this is the only Ellen in the area.
I can't find any trace of Eliza Carvel... spelling mistake for Carver perhaps?
Any thoughts please. I have joined Ancestry.co.uk but am stuck on this one.
Thanks Elz x
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Elz,
1901 Census ( 4795-171-26)
30 Davis St, Wallsend
Head John Sheehan, 28 hewer
Wife Elizabeth Sheehan 28
Son John Sheehan, 4.
Son Daniel bSheehan 2
(All born Cleator Moor)
So birth of Ellen Sheehan on 22 Nov 1902, ties nicely into the above household !
You a worrier, will still be troubled with the fact that your "target" was recorded as "Eleanor" on the marriage cert, not as "Ellen" on the birth cert and was was one year younger.
Note that the mother on the birth cert is Eliza... the wife on the 1901 census is Elizabeth.
In a couple of weeks you will be able to the family on 1911 census, and hopefully see Eleanor/Ellen within the household of John/Eliza(beth).
These little differences come along frequently when researching our families.
And us modern lot, conditioned with having to know our data, e.g.dob, postcode, NI Number, PINs etc assume our ancestors did the same. Remember folk generally only needed to know their age once every 10 years and maybe once for marriage.
Michael
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Thanks Michael, I understand your experienced viewpoint and I really am learning alot from this message board that I have not learned a quarter as much from mags and books.
Actually I really do want her to be the right one because I love Newcastle, I even lived there 2 years and know Wallsend. Its funny how this all works out!
Do you think the Carvel is right or do you think the line of Carver's that I have found are right.
I think I found some others from their time in Wallsend.
James Stanley Sheehan 1901 and Winifred Sheehan both 10b 213... does that mean twins?
Then 1908 Joseph Jeremiah Sheehan Newcastle 10b 209. I have learned that from 1908 the Wallsend births moved to Newcastle from Tynemouth so could be same family!
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Newsflash!!!
Just Googled Eliza Carvel and up it came with the correct person from Ancestry in the 1881 census (even tho I spent all evening on that site with not a trace of her...)
I feel this is the right spelling and the right person because they are based around the Cleator Moor area. The Carvers I had thought seemed to be publicans around Whitehaven.
Daniel Carvel b1836 Ireland Labouror
Ellen 1846 Ireland
Edward 1863 Egremont
Daniel 1868 Cleator Moor
Eliza Ann 1872 Cleator Moor
Alice 1879 Workington
I feel I have made a huge breakthrough with this find! And there is the link with Ellen again.
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Elz,
BMDs in Wallsend were registered with Tynemouth Registration District ( but there was a sub-district "office" in Wallsend, to save shoe leather)
Tynemouth Reg District covered from territory from south of the River Blyth, Cramlington, Whitley Bay, Longbenton , Wallsend, North Shields, Tynemouth.
"Tynemouth Reg District " was renamed South Northumberland in 1936. Then in 1974 Wallsend BMDs were transfered to Newcastle.
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Parents were allowed 42 days grace to register their child.... then The District Office would then send copies quarterly to HQ London.
Any births within e.g. the Sept qtr 1901 of Tynemouth, were registered within the period 1st July 1901 to 30 Sept 1901. But could have been 42 days prior to registration, i.e as early as end of May.
So John Stanley and Winifred could have been twins or children of two separate Sheehan families... born anywhere within the areaq covered by Tynemouth RD.
( Sadly the deaths of both John Stanley and Winifred were also registered in the same Sep Qtr with Tynemouth RD.
Note the registration of birth of Edward CARVER Sheehan in June Qtr 1908 with Whitehaven Reg District. And then Vincent Carver Sheehan in June qtr 1916.
If these births are to John and Eliz. Sheehan, then it suggests they moved back to Cumberland circa 1908.
A Daniel Sheeham marries an Elizabeth Hall in Whitehaven 1934... John?elizabeth had a Daniel on the 1901 Census.
Many pieces seem to fit, but of course it all needs coroboration.
Michael Dixon
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Thanks, interesting about the poor babies...
I think the Carvers were a different family because i looked into it and found the parents didnt match up.
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Elz, OK so are you saying your line is Sheehan/Carvel, not Sheehan/Carver ?
Michael
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Sheehan/Carvel because its Eliza Carvel on Ellen's birth certificate. I have a Daniel Carvel b. 1836 and Ellen Boyles b.1846 both Ireland. They had daughter Eliza Carvel in 1872 Cleater Moor.
She married John Sheehan and had Ellen. I am sure this all fits together exactly. As you said when the 1911 census comes out this will be confirmed.
I think two Sheehan/Carver and Sheehan/Carvel families are around same place same time but Carver's not quite right.
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Elz,
When you write " .... but Carver's not quite right " , do you mean that they are just not your line ?.
Michael
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Id been looking at Carvers 28 Lowther St Whitehaven in 1981 census. wife Elizabeth Ann Carver born 1859, daughter Emily Eliza born 1878 but whole family stayed around Whitehaven town.
This is the same family with Pemberton's as middle names (someone found on this list)
They ran various pubs. John Carver, Head, came from Isle of Man. Lived in Lowther st which was quite grand compared to where I expect my family to live!
Also the Edward Carver Sheehan born 1908 whitehaven clashes with the Joseph Jeremiah Sheehan born 1908 newcastle, where we know the Sheehans had Ellen in 1902 (John and Daniel having been born in Cleater Moor)
Just my thoughts but I am often wrong! The Carvers seem to be Whitehaven based and the Carvels Cleator Moor and Egremont.
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Had some fantastic news! I have found someone with half the same tree!!! Its the right Sheehan/Carvels back to John and sarah Sheehan in 1843.
The John Sheehan that went to Wallsend had these children:
John
Daniel
Eleanor
Mary(Gladys)
Edward
Vincent.
Two were twins, but as I found twins which confirmed had died at Wallsend tis could be what the family meant.
I am overjoyed to have found living relatives!!! Who knew my Grandad.
So Edward and Vincent may be the ones with Carver as middle names. Its confusing about the spellings.
So now the search from 1843 backwards!
Many thanks for all your help!
Elz x
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Is it likely that people coming to West Cumberland came to Whitehaven and is there a certain ship that was used ?
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1911 CENSUS
Egremont
All SHEEHAM*
Eliza 38
John 14
DANIEL** 12
Ellen 8
Mary Gladys 5
Edward Carver 2
Last two born in Egremont, Ellen born in Wallsend.
* ** Elz I hope you don't have a fit when you see the " variations" I know how fragile you are. LOL The SheehaM might be error of 1911 or by modern-day transcriber- but you can see the actual sheet that head of house ( Eliza ??)
completed. ?? David or Daniel ??.
You will have to have a "proper" look at the 1911 census as op[posed to my cheap "glance", to gert the full details.
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So with Ellen/Eleanor born in Wallsend, then living in Egremont area by about
1906 ( Egremont birth of Mary Gladys), did she later go eastwards to Seaham to allow future husband Robert to make long walks to see her ?
Michael Dixon
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Yes, the very last thing I was expecting was another surname change :o I am wondering if this Seaham thing is a red herring now I see Sheeham...maybe thats their surname on the 1921 census ::)
Ha ha, oh well, at least the family tree is expanding and the puzzle continues... I wonder where John has gone... dead or back to work somewhere else.
Has the 1911 census just come out this week? Thanks for the look up!
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Elz,
This is not a "surname change". This is a typical but minor error by folk, or officials of the day or modern transcribers.
If you pay the 1911 census fee, you will be able to see the census form that someone in the household filled in for the census enumerator. In all previous censuses we were unable to access the sheet filled in by our ancestors.
Also the sheet will reveal Eliza's marital status. I could easily have missed him, when I was using the "free" facilty in the 1911 web site!
On the 1881 census there was over 30 different spellings of my mother's Gallagher family.. My mother from the time I was a child used to say "we are " ..gh.." , not to be confused with that "..cher.." lot.
So I spent many months researching GALLAGHER, ignoring, rejecting info on other versions. Can you imagine how foolish I felt when I discovered that her folk were Galliker, Gallagar, Gallaghar etc, before they eventually settled on the GALLAGHER version.
Michael Dixon
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hi
my name is anthony pearson one of my family members married a rachael /rachel johnston/johnson
from whitehaven we do not know who here mother or father are
she married in 1865 to a william pearson from oldham lanchsire
they moved to northeast of uk
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Hi Anthony,
It might be worth starting a new post about Rachel so as not to get it confused with this one. Do you have her marriage certificate to William Pearson, that should tell you her father's name and occupation, which should help find her family in the census. If you start a new post giving all the details you already have and what you would like to know, someone may be able to help
Kind regards
Barbara
added:
I see you have already been given some ideas about Rachel's parents from GeoffE on this thread http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,246748.msg2459695.html#msg2459695
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