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Some Special Interests => Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms => Topic started by: Ian79 on Wednesday 04 March 09 08:55 GMT (UK)
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I wonder if you can help, I am trying to identify who had the right to a crest and motto in the 1850's. This is the very first time that I have ever attempted any family history research and I have a very limited knowledge of heraldry (gleaned over the past few days from the internet and local library) and don't understand a lot of the terminology so feel that I have got as far as I can without some kind soul helping me.
Although I have no idea of the correct terms the crest shows what I would describe as a griffin standing in profile looking to the left and holding a swrd, the motto is "Malo mori quam fodaria". I have managed to find from a copy of Burke's General Armory (published 1884 I think) and from that think the crest and motto are
Crest: A griffin sergeant az. holding a swrd
Motto: Malo mori quam fodaria
Although the motto appears several times there is only one crest that sounds like the one I can see. From Burke's the crest and motto appears to belong to George Ryan of Inch House, Co. Tipperary. Unfortunately the item that holds the crest and motto is dated 1850 - 1858 and this is to late for George Ryan.
Basically I have no idea who this crest and motto belonged to but would like to know if it is possible to trace the person or people who had the right to use it (or if it is generic to the Ryan name)? I appreciate that there is probably a simple answer but I don't understand about the process of granting crests or if it is possible to trace an individual from one.
The person who carried the crest in the 1850-1858 period was an officer in the East India Company's Bengal Artillery, but in that period there was more than one Ryan serving, hence my desire to know if the crest/motto can be linked to one person (Thaddeus Richard Ryan of Scarteen House, Limerick and Edward Henry Ryan, born in Bengal but possibly of Irish descent are my two contenders).
Sorry for the rambling question but I wanted to get as much information down as I have to find out if there is more available. Apologies for any cross posting as I initially posted a different question in the Military section but on reflection I think my real question is one of heraldry (I think), so I hope that I have put this in the right place (moderators please feel free to close my other post if you think it appropriate). Any help at all would be gratefully received.
Thanks for taking the time to read this and I hope that I have made some sense.
Ian
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Hi Ian
I can't help much but a ref to Malo Mori Quam Foedari - (Death before Disgrace)
See http://www.swabia-teutonic.org/index.htm
also
http://home.att.net/~numericana/arms/lister.htm
Linda
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Ian
The full Coat of Arms for Ryan of Inch House are listed in Burke's General Armory as;
"Arms: Gules three griffins’ heads erased Or.
Crest: A griffin sergeant Azure holding a sword erect proper.
Motto: Malo mori quam foedari."
A very approximate rendition can be seen here;
http://www.araltas.com/features/ryan/ryan.jpg
However, the griffin heads on the shield should be gold/yellow and the griffin on the crest should be blue.
As to who can use the Arms, that is limited to the male descendants of George Ryan. It would appear that the current armiger is now resident in New Zealand - see http://booleweb.ucc.ie/search/subject/archives/ryaninch.htm
Hope that this assists.
Regards
Stephen
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The difference between the coat of arms described in the blazon (the colour differences pointed out by Stephen) and those on the link clearly illustrate the problems of trying to establish the ownership of a particular coat of arms without having the full description.
I suspect that the arms on the link are probably derived from those of another member of the family who was aclose relative and granted his own arms including the differences noted.
While the full coat of arms pass down the heriditary line the various parts can follow various paths. The shield usually follows a male line even when there are small differences. However it is not unusual for the crest and motto to be granted to someone who is related on the female rather than the male line. Thus your crest and motto could show just a common ancestor with the Ryan line and could belong to a family with a different surname It may have been inherited from a female Ryan or the Ryans may have inherited it through a female line from another family. The latter is however much less likely in this case as the griffins on the crest also appear on the shield which indicates that they probably originate together.
David
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David and Stephen, thank you both for the help, I wasn't aware of the current holder of the arms or the information from Booleweb.
Since posting I have found that there is another branch of the Ryan family, also from Ireland but not from Inch House, who are has a different coat of arms but the same crest and motto. Ryan (William) of Ballymackeogh, Co. Tipperary, is listed in Burke's Landed Gentry of 1864 with the same motto and crest.
Where do you think I should start in trying to find out the original owner of my sword? I am a complete novice at researching geneology but know that the sword I now own was made for an officer serving in the Bengal Artillery and must date between 1850 (but most likely 1854) and 1858. In my novice I initially thought that it must belong to a Ryan and established through the East India Register and Army List (available on google books) that an Edward Henry and Thaddeus Richard Ryan received commissions into the Bengal Artillery in 1857 and 1856 respectively.
However I can't link either officers (TR or EH Ryan) with either estate mentioned above although this may well (and probably is) because I don't know where to look. After reading the above two posts I am not entirely sure I was heading along the right lines to begin with and would appreciate any guidance at all.
Once again thank you for your help.
Ian
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The London Gazette is a good tool to identify officers in the British and British Indian Armies. (I too appear in there ;D ). All appointments, promotions and awards are published in the Gazette - http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/search
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Hi Stephen,
Thanks for the information, the London Gazette search function is a very useful tool. I have also found out that the East India Company Register and Army List (pre the 1858 Indian Mutiny and the absorbtion of the H.E.I.C into the Crown) is available in full view online on google books (seaching 'East India Company Register and Army List', I am sorry I don't know how to post a link). The East India Company Register and Army List is the H.E.I.C equivilant of Hart's Army list and gives full details of the officers of the Company in their respective presidencies (Bengal, Madras and Bombay) by regiment.
I am really not sure how to begin linking the crest to the owner beyond the assumptions I started with. I am attempting to attach an image of the Crest and Motto for comments, is there any significance to the 'band' like device and knot surrounding the crest, or is it just a decorative way of bordering the image on the blade?
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Ian
The link to the East India Company Register and Army List of 1857 is here;
Click here. (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=JBooAAAAYAAJ&pg=PR13&dq=East+India+Company+Register+and+Army+List)
With regard to the crest on the sword, I'm afraid I cannot see anything to take us any further forward.
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Thanks for the help.
I have had a look through the papers quoted in the link that where donated by the current holder of the arms of George Ryan and can find no reference to service in the Bengal Army shortly before the Mutiny of 1857-59. Can I then assume that the crest and motto is linked to Ryan (William) of Ballymackeogh, Co. Tipperary (the other person mentioned in Burke's Landed Gentry as holding the crest and motto that I have pictured) rather than Inch House?
As I am hopelessly out of my depth with geneological research could somebody point me in the right direction for finding out if male descendants of Ryan (William) of Ballymackeogh, Co. Tipperary could have had service in the Bengal Army? For example, despite the answer being posted above I have no idea how to find out who (and where) the current holder of the arms resides.
Thanks for the help.
Kind Regard
Ian
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The crest and motto can be linked to a number of people. To link the sword to a particular person requires other evidence.
There may not be anyone who currently claims the CoA. They may have become extinct due to their being no established heir. Equally there may be someone who is entitled to them, who is unaware of their right.
Whether you are trying to build a family tree or establish the provenence of an article like a sword the basic rules are the same. Start from the present day and work backwards establishing full proof at each stage. If you dive into some point in the past then proof is very difficult if not impossible.
David
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Hi Ian,
Did you lose track of this other post?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,365249.0.html
vv.
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Two posts on this thread have used the word 'sergeant', which I believe should be 'segreant': an epithet of the griffin, in heraldry equivalent to rampant and salient. [From an elderly Chambers Dictionary.]
Here are a couple of links which might help: Families in British India:
http://www.new.fibis.org/
and the British Library:
indiafamily.bl.uk/
A
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Hi Ian
Last December, I was able to link Thaddeus Richard Ryan to the arms
of the Scarteen Ryans, which he inherited on his father's death in 1863.
See my reply #5 to your topic:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,365249.0.html
which I assume you have not seen, since it is the last post on that
topic.
vv.
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Hi there,
I have been going through my recently deceased father's stuff and have found a mounted coat of arms for the Ryan family. My arm of the family has been in the UK (some have emigrated to NZ/Oz/Canada) for about 4/5 generations (originally in Chorley, Lancashire but now we are spread far and wide!).
My great-great-great (maybe more) grandfather (Captain Edward Michael Ryan) was in the 15th19th Hussars and won a medal at the battle of Villiers en Couche in 1794 (a regimental battle honour). He was awarded the Order of Maria Theresa and a gold medal (the latter went to NZ with some of the family there), the scroll for the Order is on loan to a military museum in the UK.
With so many Ryans in the world, who knows who is related where (I need to do some research) but thought this might be of interest. I will try to take and post a photo of the Coat of Arms.
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It is not a photo but I found this with a quick search on the web, some chap called Tom Ryan in Wisconsin. It is a fair representation of the coat of arms which I have:
Gules, three gryphons' heads erased argent.
A gryphon segreant gules holding in the sinister claw a dagger proper.
Malo mori quam foedari
You will note the different claw holding the dagger and silver rather than gold as well as red colouring which is different to the other links posted on here.
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The Ryan of Inch pedigree seems to have gone. The most recent "individuals" as listed by Burke's Irish Family Records (1976):
G/CAPT RICHARD CECIL FRANCIS· RYAN, of Inch, Thurles, co Tipperary, RN, commn'd 1910, served in World War I, ret as Cmdr 1929, re-empd in World War II, ret as Capt 1945, b 2 Dec 1888, educ Stonyhurst, and HMS Britannia, m 18 Aug 1910, Kathleen Constance Mary (d 18 Nov 1971), 3rd dau of Stephen Grehan, of Clonmeen, Banteer, co Cork (see that family, 1958 Edn), and d II Sept 1964, leaving issue,
1.RICHARD STEPHEN, of whom we treat.
2.ARTHUR GEORGE, of Inch, Thurles, co Tipperary, late Master Holycross Beagles, b Z3 May 1919, educ Glenstal, and Trin Coli Dublin (BA, BAI 1943), m31 Aug 1957, .Elizabeth, eldest dau of Capt Alexander Addison, MBE, of Christchurch, NZ, and has issue,
1.Adrian Arthur, b 17 Feb 1959.
2.Roland Richard, b 12 March 1961.
3.Justin Peter, b 18 March 1965.
1 .Lynette Elizabeth, b 5 Jan 1963.
2.Melanie Juliet, b 16 May 1967.
G/CAPT RICHARD STEPHEN RYAN, CBE (1953), formerly of Thomastown Park, Offaly (s his cousin Major V. J. E. Ryan 1947, but sold 1951), RAF (ret 1956), served in World War II (despatches), Cmdr Order of the Sword (Sweden) (1954) (The Old Parsonage, Moreton-in-Marsh, Glos), b 15 Jan 1912, educ The Oratory, and Trin Coli Dublin (BA), m 26 May 1937,.Mary Wilford, only dau of late Edwin Taylor, CMG, of Bognor Regis, Sussex, and has issue,
1. Rosemary, b 30 March 1939, m 21 March 1970, .Livio Testa (Via dei Chiavari 21A, Rome 00186, Italy), eldest son of Michele Alfredo Testa, of Via dei Coronari 28, Rome, Italy.
2 • Shelagh Ann, b 22 Oct 1945, m 23 July 1972, • Joseph Pierre Gazano (SLAB, Quai de Commerce, 20212 Bonifacio, Corsica), son of late Pierre Vincent Louis Gazano, of 21 Rue de I'Hotel de Ville, 20212 Bonifacio, Corsica, and has issue,
Pierre, b 9 May 1974.
3.Edwina, b 31 Oct 1950, m 9 Sept 1972, .Robert Andrew Dyson (19 Bramham Gardens, London SW5), 2nd son of Richard George Dyson, of Brickfields, Chobham, Surrey.
Arms. -Gu, three giffins' heads erased or. Crest-A griffin segreant az, holding in dexter claw a dagger. Motto-Malo mori quam foedari.
Seats. -Inch, Thurles, co Tipperary; Thomastown Park, Birr, Offaly; Castle ffogerty (or Fogarty), Thurles, co Tipperary.
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I'm researching some distant cousins in Ireland, one of whom married a William Villiers (or Villers) Ryan (1811-1865). So far my research shows that some descendants moved to New Zealand and others to Cheshire from Lancashire. I don't know where the name Villiers came from but I noticed that there was an Edward Michael Ryan who took part in a battle at Villers in the 1700s and that the eldest son down the generations was usually called Edward or Edward Michael. I'd like to compare my research with anybody who might be related to the original Edward Michael Ryan.
Adam