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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: jnu on Friday 27 March 09 20:59 GMT (UK)

Title: Surnames / occupations
Post by: jnu on Friday 27 March 09 20:59 GMT (UK)
Hi
I have the following surnames and occupations in my family tree and i think i have gypsy ancestry.Are any of these common?

Jones,Houghton,Highcock,Lee,Gregson,Hartley,Metcalfe,Whittaker,Baker,Lowe,Walker,Stephenson
 (oxfordshire,Lancashire and Yorkshire)


Cotton weaver,Wool comber,blacksmith,out door labour,tool maker,yeast hawker,iron turner/mechanic,iron broker,marine store dealer,brass finisher,hawker.
Title: Re: Surnames / occupations
Post by: devonblue on Saturday 28 March 09 07:21 GMT (UK)
I'm not nearly so knowledgeable as many on here but I'd say that some of the surnames could be Romany/Gypsy

Lee possibly Jones.  I don't know about the others.

For the occupations, Hawkers stands out but I'm really not sure about the rest. Obviously not all hawkers were gypsies but a lot were.

Hopefully someone a bit more savvy will come on and give you more help.
Title: Re: Surnames / occupations
Post by: An65 on Saturday 28 March 09 09:11 GMT (UK)
Jones Lee Baker Walker and Stephenson are all possible from my knowledge.

out door labour, tool maker, marine store dealer, hawker
are possible occupations.

Did these people live in houses or tents/caravans? were they in winter lodgings rather than homes of their own? do they appear with extended family nearby?
Title: Re: Surnames / occupations
Post by: jnu on Saturday 28 March 09 10:51 GMT (UK)
Thanks for replies.On the Hartley side they lived at "The Springs" Bury, Lancashire, they moved between there and Bradford where most of the family seemed to be.The Hartleys,Stephensons and Gregsons came from the Bingley/Keighley/Bradford area.I have a Timothy and Bella Metcalfe who I believe are relations living in Accrington, Lancashire, on the 1881 census Timothy is a Hawker.Their occupations ranged from WoolComber to Marine Store dealer.
Title: Re: Surnames / occupations
Post by: jnu on Monday 30 March 09 23:00 BST (UK)
Quote
What Was A Journey man Brickmaker, Is That a Gypsy That Makes Bricks ?


maybe, maybe not
Title: Re: Surnames / occupations
Post by: Suffolk Mawther on Monday 30 March 09 23:24 BST (UK)
Quote
ok lol that helps but thanks, because my granny said my great great great grandfather was a gypsy, and in his census thing it says he is a journey man brick maker.. so i dont know how to make that out


A journeyman in any occupation where an apprenticeship has been served is a craftsman, who is not working on his own account, but working 'by the day' for an employer.

So a Journeyman has served his apprenticeship and is skilled.

It is thought that Journeyman comes via the French 'by the day' par le jour.

We have a skilled hand made brickyard near Sudbury in Suffolk. They still make unusual bricks for such places as palaces when repairs are needed to original Tudor brickwork.

Pat ...
Title: Re: Surnames / occupations
Post by: Suffolk Mawther on Monday 30 March 09 23:32 BST (UK)
Quote
ok thank for that but i want to know if journey man has anything to do with a gypsie?


No idea!

Most journeyman lived in the villages and worked for the local tradesman, such as the brickmaker or the blacksmith.

Davey is found all over Suffolk, it is not an uncommon name.

Why do you think yours were gypsies?

A journeyman would have to serve a long apprenticeship - not usually something undertaken by travelling people?

Pat ...
Title: Re: Surnames / occupations
Post by: jnu on Tuesday 31 March 09 13:17 BST (UK)
Quote
ok thanks, and because my granny told me that the daveys were gypsies in woolpit, and they settled their in wagons, but this was 1700s, so im trying to conferm this for my granny

A journey man was paid by the day for his work i think.People may have been listed as Journey men(on census or certificates) and not have served an apprenticeship. :)
Title: Re: Surnames / occupations
Post by: jnu on Thursday 02 April 09 15:17 BST (UK)
Quote
ok thank you :)
but how wouldi go about findin out more about the gypsies?


Im in the same boat from what i have been told my grandmother was of Romany decent and also my grandfather has gypsy ancestry.My grandad who is still alive doesnt like talking about family history and my grandmother didnt either.My gran and her sister were both very dark and there mother was too.I am still looking for clues  ???  :(
Title: Re: Surnames / occupations
Post by: jnu on Tuesday 12 May 09 12:53 BST (UK)
Quote
o right where did they come from? and were they travellers or were they gypsies?

It would seem that they all had more than one job they were cotton weavers and hawkers ect.
Title: Re: Surnames / occupations
Post by: JaneyJ on Wednesday 13 May 09 22:48 BST (UK)
Hi Johnru,

Hartley is definitely a Gypsy/Traveller surname, I have a whole bunch of them in my tree.
They came mostly from the north of England and Scotland.

Can you give me some more details and I'll have a look to see if they match any of my lot.  :)

Janey
Title: Re: Surnames / occupations
Post by: jnu on Friday 15 May 09 11:36 BST (UK)
Hi
James Hartley babt1789 yorkshire,Joshua Hartley b1815 Bingley yorkshire,John Hartley b 1834 Bingley,they seemed to move around Bingley,Keighley,Bradford and Bury Lancashire.In the Hartley line the other surnames are Metcalfe(also used whitaker)Walker,Gregson,Stephenson and Walker.Hope this makes some sense.
                thanks John
Title: Re: Surnames / occupations
Post by: jnu on Friday 15 May 09 11:39 BST (UK)
also on the 1851 census the family are living in Bradford, lodging in there home is a Oti Smith a very gypsy name ( i cant find Oti on any other census).
Title: Re: Surnames / occupations
Post by: JaneyJ on Monday 18 May 09 21:29 BST (UK)
Hi Johnru,Sorry it's taken so long to get back to you but I was away for the weekend.
I've had a quick look at my Hartley's, I've not given you exact dates here if you need more detailed info let me know...too much info to write down with my poor hungover head..... ;D
David Hartley
b; abt 1814 Yorkshire (info 1861 census All Saints, Byker, Newcastle)
Wife: Mary Forrest b: abt 1814 Newcastle. (info as above).
They lived in a tent in Keighley in the 1841 census.
Their names are from son Matthews death cert, 03/09/1922 Edinburgh.

Their children were:Elizabeth abt:1842John abt: 1844
Matthew abt: 1845 died 03/09/1922 Edinburgh
Margory abt: 1849
Richard abt: 1835
Caroline abt: 1837.
All born in Yorkshire.
Son Matthew married Elizabeth Wilson b abt: 1846 in Jarrow. she died 10/04/1888 Elgin Scotland.
They married on the 29/01/1866 South Fields, Durham (info Son's birth cert).
Matthew was a Basket Maker/Hawker and died in Edinburgh in 1922.

Their Children were:Mary 1869  Wigtonshire, married David Hartley (cousin)
Matthew 1870 York, married Christian Forrest
David 1873 Lanark, married Annie Forrest
Robert 1874 Berwickshire, married Harriet Brown
John 1877 Stirling, married Rebecca Young (my g/aunt).
Jacob 1879 Inverness, married Rebecca Oliver
Richard 1881 Edinburgh, married Helen Sharples

Matthew (1845) was married for a second time in 1895 in Aberdeen, to Jeanie McKenzie b abt 1874 Leith Scotland.
Their children were:
Margaret Isabell b: 1897 Leith
Jeanie or Jessie b: 1896 Leith
Hannah b: 1898 Leith.

If you would like to know more about wives etc let me know, I've not given death dates as a lot of them are within the last 100yrs.

Janey
Title: Re: Surnames / occupations
Post by: jnu on Tuesday 19 May 09 11:04 BST (UK)
Hi there may be a conection  :)
James Hartley m Martha Stephenson grtx5grandparents
Joshua Hartley b abt 1815 Bingley grtgrtgrtgrtfather married Mary Gregson(b Keighley 1818) in 1834
John Hartley b 1834 Bingley? grtgrtgrtfather married Sarah Metcalfe/Whitaker 1854 Bradford.
Jessie Hartley my grtgrtgrandmother b Bury 1867.Jessies siblings were Gregson,Araminta(Arrominto?on birth certificate),Fred,Oswald,Stephen,James Henry and Mary.
John Hartley had quite a few siblings born Burley/Bingley/Keighley and Bradford, i cant find Joshua and Mary on the 1861 census.
The Hartleys were marine store dealers in Bury.I will keep searching, hope your hangover has cleared lol
Title: Re: Surnames / occupations
Post by: cwtch on Friday 01 January 10 00:19 GMT (UK)
RE: surnames Stephenson is definatly a Roma name it is on my side of the family and it can be spelt Stevenson also, other name is my familiar are:

Evon

Price

Burtons,

Hearns,

Furies

Ryles

Lees

Holland

Rafferty

Mitchell
Title: Re: Surnames / occupations
Post by: JaneyJ on Friday 01 January 10 17:00 GMT (UK)
Hi Marona,

I've heard of a cross over in names between the Young's and the Hearn's, but can't make head nor tails of it, do you have any idea what it is about??

Yours Jane.
Title: Re: Surnames / occupations
Post by: Steve G on Saturday 02 January 10 03:18 GMT (UK)
Quote
I Think The daveys In My Line Must Have married Into Gypsies....

Either

Samuel Davey And Mary Baker (Mary Was Gypsy Maybe??)
Rueben Davey And Elizabeth Jarman (elizabeth was gypsy maybe??)
William R Davey And Maria Crickmore (Maria Was Gypsy maybe??)
Or Herbert James Davey And Mary Whiteman (Mary Was Gypsy maybe??)
Herbert And Mary Were My Great Great Grandparents...

Could Anyone Find iNFO Out About Mary Ann Whitemans Family Please x x :)
She Is From Hastings I Think, Not Sure Though, And She married Herbert James Davey


Davey, Baker, Jarman and Webb are all known, Gypsy names.

And, in the last post I made on this forum, I've just pointed out to someone else how people with Gypsy blood in them, regardless of their awareness of or concern for it, often display an astonishing ability to connect themselves to others of such blood ~ as in marry them.

 Could be a lot more to ye own make up than ye realise  ;)
 
Title: Re: Surnames / occupations
Post by: cwtch on Sunday 03 January 10 23:24 GMT (UK)
Sorry Janneyj I am not aware of any Youngs, it.s very frustrating trying to find info on Roma families! ;D
Title: Re: Surnames / occupations
Post by: vince smith on Monday 04 January 10 15:33 GMT (UK)
Merona, Do you think  that the  Rom(a), Stevensons are the same as the Romnichal Stevonsons and stevens'?

Same for the Mitchells.   

Although DNA testing is starting to show that all the Romani groups are related, I am led to believe by my Wife's family who are Evon's, that many of the surnames were anglicised when the Rom got to the West.

I have stevens in my line going back at least to 1780.

I see you also have Raffertys, of whom my Grandmother was one.
Title: Re: Surnames / occupations
Post by: cwtch on Tuesday 05 January 10 21:01 GMT (UK)
Hi Vince Smith, I do not know anything about the Roma dna whose is what? Interesting though. I believe all Roma people are related not tinkers or people gadje that decide they want to try that life and feel then they are Rom no a Roma person it's inside deeper even that the blood lines, it's who you are no if and or buts.....does that make sense to any one......I'm kind of going a bit around in circles trying to explain how I feel about a true Roma lol.
Any way Vince it's interesting because I also am an Evon....
Title: Re: Surnames / occupations
Post by: JaneyJ on Tuesday 05 January 10 23:46 GMT (UK)
Hi Marona,

Thankyou for the reply, ref: Hearn's/ Young's, I'll sort this out one day.... ::)

I agree with your last post, being a Rom/Roma/Gypsy is a feeling of belonging to something very special.

Though I am of mixed blood, (Grandma Jane Young married "out"), I have an enormous pride in my Gypsy/Travelling family.

The Young's were known to be "Proper Romanies" in Scotland, and held in deep respect within the Scottish Traveller communities. (Read Jess Smith, author of some wonderful books about Scottish Travellers).

So even if my blood is a little diluted, the love of freedom and family still runs through me.

Jane
Title: Re: Surnames / occupations
Post by: cwtch on Wednesday 06 January 10 05:04 GMT (UK)
Hi Jane and any one else that might be interested; at the Liverpool uni there is a large section on Roma people. You can purchase info on families last name. There is a small fee for this but well worth it.
I will post the address below and contacts name.
good luck

Katy Hooper

Hooper, Katy <K.Hooper@liverpool.ac.uk>

Special Collections & Archives
Title: Re: Surnames / occupations
Post by: rootbeer on Wednesday 06 January 10 11:27 GMT (UK)
Hi Janey-J. The Heron/Youngs are/were different Young's from the Scottish Traveller Young's. the Heron Young's mostly married Heron's Lee's Boswell's or there own Young's. they were Herons who took the name Young i think the name change started with Miller Heron i will check my info. my gt gt grandmother was Leondra Young she married a Boswell i have done a lot of research on the heron/Youngs and would like to hear from anyone ells who might have connections.  my aunt is a Scottish Young and my brother in-law a Hartley im related to the Cuninghams and my uncles mam was a Stevenson all are very well known Gypsy familys. just to add that the Heron/Youngs used the names Brown Linner Gray Boswell and others on some Census i have the full Heron tree but its not %100 but would be happy to help anyone who might be interested
Title: Re: Surnames / occupations
Post by: JaneyJ on Wednesday 06 January 10 22:09 GMT (UK)
Hi rootbeer,
Thankyou so much for the info, it has cleared my head of a lot of useless junk....quite a big job that one  ;D.

I to am related to the Cunninghams and Hartley's, My G/Grandmother was Margaret Cunningham c: 1865 Sheffield, who married John Young b: 1861 Aberdeen.
Their daughter (my Great Aunt) Rebecca b: 1886 Stirling, married John Hartley b: 1877 Stirling, they settled in Edinburgh.

I've not come across the name Leondra Young in my family, sounds a lovely name, the Scots tended to use quite conventional names,  I do have Boswells, though not a direct link.

Who is your Scottish Aunt Young?.

Jane
Title: Re: Surnames / occupations
Post by: JaneyJ on Wednesday 06 January 10 22:38 GMT (UK)
Hi Marona,
 
Thankyou for the info on Liverpool Uni, I've just had a quick look on their web site and it's given me itchy feet to go and have a look, though by the comments Katy Hooper made on the Gypsy Lore web site I might want a few days to have a good look....another holiday coming on I think... ;).

Jane
Title: Re: Surnames / occupations
Post by: daisydew7 on Saturday 25 February 17 21:46 GMT (UK)
Does anyone know anything about Frampton Youn S/o Elijah heron young and Sarah Boss Born 1821 In England

Thank you
Title: Re: Surnames / occupations
Post by: StuartjLee on Tuesday 02 May 17 10:04 BST (UK)
Lee is a very common gypsy surname.
I have links to Metcalfe on my family tree via my maternal Aunts. (Yorksire/Northumberland)
Hi
I have the following surnames and occupations in my family tree and i think i have gypsy ancestry.Are any of these common?

Jones,Houghton,Highcock,Lee,Gregson,Hartley,Metcalfe,Whittaker,Baker,Lowe,Walker,Stephenson
 (oxfordshire,Lancashire and Yorkshire)


Cotton weaver,Wool comber,blacksmith,out door labour,tool maker,yeast hawker,iron turner/mechanic,iron broker,marine store dealer,brass finisher,hawker.
Title: Re: Surnames / occupations
Post by: daisydew7 on Wednesday 03 May 17 01:29 BST (UK)
I recognize the names Lee and Hartley as gypsy names but, at this time I don't know anything specific
Title: Re: Surnames / occupations
Post by: Steve G on Wednesday 03 May 17 18:24 BST (UK)
Looks like Johnru was talking quite a while ago now? Before I really realised he may well be long gone, I'd just automatically reached for The Book of Bob and ran those names through it. Not a result entirely lacking in interest  ;)

If Johnru should ever resurface, with an interest, I'll bang up what the book has  :)
Title: Re: Surnames / occupations
Post by: jnu on Friday 05 May 17 17:05 BST (UK)
Hi yes its been a while since I posted this :). I've seen some of the names in Bobs book which is interesting. Hartley, Metcalfe,Whittaker and Gregson are my ancestors I presume that are Romany, their occupations were Hawkers,Woolcombers, metal brokers and marine store dealers also some of them travelled with a shooting gallery.
Title: Re: Surnames / occupations
Post by: Steve G on Friday 05 May 17 18:33 BST (UK)
There ye are, John!  ;D Excellent. And ye have / had access to the BOB? Even better. Saves me time  ;)

I'm thinking; Where are Rob G and Romany Knaves, on this? Couple of people there capable of thinking outside the box. That's what, I suspect, we could do with here  8)
Title: Re: Surnames / occupations
Post by: youngtug on Friday 05 May 17 21:15 BST (UK)
Woolcombing was an apprenticed trade,  toolmaker that was mentioned earlier is also. Therefore neither trade is likely to be taken up by a traveller.
Title: Re: Surnames / occupations
Post by: sallyyorks on Saturday 06 May 17 05:27 BST (UK)
Woolcombing was an apprenticed trade,  toolmaker that was mentioned earlier is also. Therefore neither trade is likely to be taken up by a traveller.

Probably not someone travelling no, but these trades might have been taken up by Romany who settled during industrialisation. Especially in the north of England
I know a Romany family who were originally scrap metal brokers in the Leeds area but some of them were also coal miners and mill workers.
Title: Re: Surnames / occupations
Post by: youngtug on Saturday 06 May 17 08:43 BST (UK)
The original post and subsequent ones questioned the jobs listed [ Cotton weaver,Wool comber,blacksmith,out door labour,tool maker,yeast hawker,iron turner/mechanic,iron broker,marine store dealer,brass finisher,hawker.] and whether they would be likely to be undertaken by travellers. I would think that any trades entailing a 7 year apprenticeship, almost certainly in one place would not be.
Of the list wool comber, blacksmith, toolmaker and iron turner/mechanic would be the ones needing an apprenticeship, and to mind not fitting a travelling life style.
Cotton weaver, depending upon when and where, could be an apprenticed trade.
Of course, anyone can stay in one place and take jobs that do not involve travelling, sometimes for a short period of their lives, other times for life.
Title: Re: Surnames / occupations
Post by: sallyyorks on Saturday 06 May 17 13:54 BST (UK)
The original post and subsequent ones questioned the jobs listed [ Cotton weaver,Wool comber,blacksmith,out door labour,tool maker,yeast hawker,iron turner/mechanic,iron broker,marine store dealer,brass finisher,hawker.] and whether they would be likely to be undertaken by travellers. I would think that any trades entailing a 7 year apprenticeship, almost certainly in one place would not be.
Of the list wool comber, blacksmith, toolmaker and iron turner/mechanic would be the ones needing an apprenticeship, and to mind not fitting a travelling life style.
Cotton weaver, depending upon when and where, could be an apprenticed trade.
Of course, anyone can stay in one place and take jobs that do not involve travelling, sometimes for a short period of their lives, other times for life.

I wouldn't call ANY mill work in the late industrial period particularly 'skilled' and certainly not the kind of jobs that would need a '7 Year apprenticeship'. I learned to operate an industrial loom in a matter of weeks !
'Wool combing' might have been a skill before it was industrialised, but that was before mechanisation.
Metal working was actually a job Romany were known for at one time. There are still many Gypsy Blacksmiths in eastern/Balkan European countries. Copper working too and metal reclaiming (scrap).
Names and occupations can help determine if someone was from a Romany family but I think you also need to keep an open mind, especially in areas where people had to adapt from being rural to being urban/industrial. If pegs, pots and pans,umbrellas or chairs were being mass produced, then the work for a tinker, knife grinder, umbrella mender or chair mender would dry up.
Everyone had to adapt to mass production and industrialisation, and that would have included many of the rural Romany too
Title: Re: Surnames / occupations
Post by: Hart45 on Saturday 13 April 19 16:40 BST (UK)
Hi there,  found this thread online. I'm decended from Yorkshire and Lancashire romanys and a few worked in the occupations that are mentioned especially in the cotton Mills none served apprenticeships.
From what I have read "mechanic" was just a general term used for an unskilled worker usually in metal or craft work.
Hartley and Metcalfe are both Romany names from the North.
Title: Re: Surnames / occupations
Post by: GingerVicky on Monday 22 April 19 22:10 BST (UK)
I have been researching my friends gypsy family. Most of the occupations I've found so far are Hawker or flower Hawker, collector of ferns, agricultural Labourer, general Labourer, market gardener.
In this family they had grand Biblical names such a Solomon, Abraham, Matthew and other names like Adelaide and Keziah.
In the 1901 census, three of the families were living next to each other.
Their addresses were things like "Birch cottages"
In the 1939 register, it said "Birch cottages" (a caravan)
Don't know if this helps at all but thought I'd share what I found out.
Title: Blacksmith Re: Surnames / occupations
Post by: kr236rk on Monday 03 February 20 22:14 GMT (UK)
...blacksmith, toolmaker and iron turner/mechanic would be the ones needing an apprenticeship, and to mind not fitting a travelling life style.

Not so - know of a Romany white smith who turned blacksmith & was a travelling blacksmith to boot, Richard Brazier of Coventry who appears - with his spouse - on the 1871 census at Hartlepool as blacksmith.