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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: Andcarred on Friday 15 May 09 07:17 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I am trying to find the location of a place called Jabber Track in France near Passchendaele. My great uncle Frederick Allwood was killed on 4 October 1917 and is listed on the Menin Gate along with soldiers who have no known grave. However one of Fred's war records say he was buried at Jabber Track on 10 October 1917 and give a Grave No 564 J4.B4.3 (Long time between death and burial??)
There is a Red Cross report on him where statements were taken from his mates who all say they heard he had died from his wounds but did not know where he had been buried. All official website records say he has no known grave except the one above which gives Jabber Track as his burial site. The only clues I have are statements that the 4th Btn had taken Poeleappolle near Passchendaele on 4 October and that a Pioneer Btn were in charge of burying the dead.
I have spoken to the Australian War Graves Commission in Canberra who have been unable to help. Any clues as to whereabouts of the Jabber Track?
Andcarred
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Hi: Whilst I am unable to suggest where Jabber Track is precisely, I think it might be an anglicised name for a Belgian location near to Passchendaele or Poelkapelle (unfortunately my map of Belgium is not detailed enough to cover the very small villages) or perhaps Army slang for a particular place - they named trenches etc. We were very good at changing names eg Wipers ;D However, there is a museum dedicated solely to Passchendaele, and I am sure they will be able to help you. www.passchendaele.be and their e-mail is info@pass....
FYI Passchendaele is in Belgium, not France.
Hope this helps
BumbleB
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My grandfather was with the 1st Battalion, in the same vicinity (Broodseinde), and was wounded the same day as you great uncle (4/10/1917), the first day of 3rd Battle for Ypres. Luckily(?), he was wounded in the legs by German machine gun fire, and survived the War.
From my research the Jabber Track was a series of wooden duck boards which were layed across the mud, so soldiers could walk without getting stuck in the mud - it wasn't a track as such. In my records I researched on my grandfather, I have a photo from a book captioned "Fifth Division soldiers on the Jabber Track in the Passchendaele area c.November 1917".
My research notes on my grandfather's indicate ".......... 2.30am 4 October, 1917, soldiers of the 1st Battaltion moved from their position at Westhoek by walking in a single file on duck boards along the Jabber Track, reaching their assembly point at 4am. At 5am the 1st Battalion was finally in position some 1000 yards south of the village of Broodseinde itself. The 6th Battalion was on its left and the 4th Battalion was on its right. Zero hour for the attack had been set at 6am". "
I obtained most of my research notes from the Battalion Books, which are written accounts of individual Battalion's war history. Unfortunately, not all Battalions have a book, but the 1st Battalion does. These books are available, but you have to find them.
Les
Les
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You could also try the war diaries \t the AWM
http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/war_diaries/first_world_war/class.asp?levelID=91
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Thank you "spof" for the link to the War Diaries. I've just found the information I wanted ;D ;D You are so lucky with your Australian sites, they are fantastic - wish our's were as good (and free!!!!). Les de B, thanks also for your help and input.
And Andcarred gets the information as well - what a great day.
BumbleB :)
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Theres a Photograph on that site..heres the link.
http://cas.awm.gov.au/photograph/E00985
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Woody32 - the photograph from the AWM site that you mentioned is the same one that I have in my research records. The AWM offers a more precise date than my "c.November, 1917". It evens identifies some of the soliders in it!
Spof - a great link. I was unaware that the actual War Diaries were on-line (haven't researched WW1 for a while now). The Battalion Books that were written are based on those diaries, but with much more detail with first hand accounts given. One classic example being when a larrikin Aussie Officer found a local horse, and thought he would ride it in a charge over the trenches. At the first shell fire, the horse turned and bolted back to the farm - bet that's not in the War Diaries!
Les
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Hi to Les, Spof, Woody32 and BumbleB,
Thank you all for this wonderful information, I will certainly follow up on the websites, the diaries and Battalion histories.
Andcarred
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edited :-[
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oops...
Click on the 5th division link.
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Albert Henry Fullwood Born in Birmingham England 1863.
ignore me !!! yours is Allwood :-[
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I did a Western Front Tour of France and Belguim in April. My Great Uncle was buried on the Jabber Track. It is in Zonnebeke Belguim. The tour Guide took me to the spot on the Jabber Track where he was buried, and give me maps. He said my uncle is probably now in a cemetery as an Unknown soldier.
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Hi Chris,
Thanks so much for your reply. My g uncle was also buried on the Jabba Track and I have an actual grave number but the War Mememorial in Canberra doesn't have a listing for a cemetery on the Jabba Track, in fact they had never heard of it. My g uncle has his name on the Menin Gate with other soldiers who have no known grave. The only difference in his case is that I have a grave number so I don't know who they can say there is no known grave, unless it just got lost in all the confusion.
I am thinking of travelling to France at some time. Can you tell me where you got the maps of the position of the track as this may come in handy if I do get there.
Thanks,
Andcarred
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My Great Uncle was also killed on the 4th October. He is also marked as being buried J4B43. He was buried on the 6th October, and his name is on the Menin Gate. I was in Ieper Belguim for three nights and went to the Gate every night. It was an amazing experience.
The tour guide give me the maps. On the map it has Zonnebeke Courtesy of National Archives of London
www.memory-map.com
The Guide I had was excellent. He lives in France and was in the British Army. We were a group of twenty, and did a 10 day Anzac tour, but he also does small tours. Hope this is a help to you.
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Thanks for the information, I will contact the map centre.
Andcarred
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Hello,
My name is Olivia Shaxson. For my Modern History assignment i have chosen to research the life of your great Uncle Frederick Theodore Allwood. I was extremely surprised to see his name on this post when i started looking for Jabber Track.
I was wondering if you have any information regarding your Uncle's life that you may be able to pass onto me to assist in making my assignment as factual as it can be.
Thank you in advance for any information you can pass on.
Olivia Shaxson
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Rather a long track I'm afraid. The placemark on the Google Earth view is in the same place as the green flag on the trench map. It's north-east of Polygon Wood
(http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww34/IRCKevin/jabber%201_zpsndknxylg.jpg) (http://s703.photobucket.com/user/IRCKevin/media/jabber%201_zpsndknxylg.jpg.html)
(http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww34/IRCKevin/jabber2_zpss2910sje.jpg) (http://s703.photobucket.com/user/IRCKevin/media/jabber2_zpss2910sje.jpg.html)
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Apologies Andcarred. Just read your first post properly and realised that's a map reference. The map reference given for the grave is marked as a red placemark on map and Google Earth view. Actual coordinates are 50°51'45.30"N 2°59'47.40"E
(http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww34/IRCKevin/jabber4_zpsvsycytv8.jpg) (http://s703.photobucket.com/user/IRCKevin/media/jabber4_zpsvsycytv8.jpg.html)
(http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww34/IRCKevin/jabber3_zpsz2sj6tvi.jpg) (http://s703.photobucket.com/user/IRCKevin/media/jabber3_zpsz2sj6tvi.jpg.html)
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When the Grave Retrieval Units searched for bodies post-war, they were given total numbers of bodies definitely known to be buried in each quarter square (a-d). As you can see from this extract showing the relevant area, they had been notified of 100 in grid square 4b. These were just known graves, each square would also have its unknowns as well. I can't tell you how many were actually recovered from that square, or how many of those were identified, but a trawl through the CWWG records for nearby Polygon Wood Cemetery may be of help. When individuals were moved from another grave, they were given what is known as a 'concentration' document. These can be uploaded and checked, but you need to go through every casualty to find them all. (Having already gone through all 133 pages of these from that cemetery, looking for 12 men of the King's Own buried at Polygon Wood in 1915 and never recovered, it's no quick task!)
(http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww34/IRCKevin/jabber5_zpsumgupvk9.jpg) (http://s703.photobucket.com/user/IRCKevin/media/jabber5_zpsumgupvk9.jpg.html)
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Very good information "writer133". Is Broodseine close to the Jabber Track? That's where my grandfather was wounded 4/10/1917. As a child, he showed me the machine gun wound scars on his leg- he was 1st Battalion A.I.F.
Les
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Very good information "writer133". Is Broodseine close to the Jabber Track? That's where my grandfather was wounded 4/10/1917. As a child, he showed me the machine gun wound scars on his leg- he was 1st Battalion A.I.F.
Les
Broodseinde is about 1,500 yards to the north of Jabber Track.
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Thank you ;)
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Andcarred ... My name is Steven Bowman and Frederick Allwood was my Great-Great Uncle. What is your name? How did you go with this? I am also researching the grave location of Frederick. I also saw the same reference for his location:
"On 4 October 1917 Fred was wounded in action at Paschendaele and died the same day. He was buried at Jabber Track on 10 October 1917 Grave No 564 J 4.B.4.3"
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While you're waiting for contact maybe you'd like to see this:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01l8r/
You can see Jabber House & the track leading off.
The location of the graves has been located by others on here. Yellow square
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Thank you Jim1, very helpful!
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I have found some documents on my great grandfather Edward Earnest Fowle. He was an Australian soldier on the Jabber Track on 4th October 1917 when there when an incident occurred killing horses and men of an ammunition wagon and helped save a man who was trapped under the wagon. It does not tell me what Battalion he was in... how would I be able to find this information out and any other interesting facts about his service history?
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I have found some documents on my great grandfather Edward Earnest Fowle. He was an Australian soldier on the Jabber Track on 4th October 1917 when there when an incident occurred killing horses and men of an ammunition wagon and helped save a man who was trapped under the wagon. It does not tell me what Battalion he was in... how would I be able to find this information out and any other interesting facts about his service history?
Ally here is a link to your great grandfather's Service History. Once on the site, click onto "View Digial Copy" near the right corner of the page, dthat will give you 69 pages of his history, which can also be downloaded for free as well. Sometimes these records can be a little hard to follow, but with patience, you will soon be able to work it;
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/DetailsReports/ItemDetail.aspx?Barcode=4023694&isAv=N
Les
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thank you so much for the link Les. I have managed to have a look and my great grandfather seemed to get up to a bit of mischief while serving..
what an interesting read I will have over the weekend.
Ally
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My Dad was the youngest of all of his brothers so was only 11 years old when WW1 began. Two of his brothers were killed, Arthur in 1916 on the Somme and William on 22nd August, 1917, though his body was never found and identified. William had lied about his age when he enlisted in the West Yorks and when they found out that he was still under 18 the Army sent him back from the Front in France to Northern Ireland. Once he turned 18 he was transferred to they Royal Scots and straight back to the front.
I searched for a long time before I found a reference to where the Royal Scots were on the 22nd August and as I look again at the map he wasn't all that far from the village of Broodeseinde. Anyway it gives a good idea of the slow advance made just two months after his death.
Memoirs & Diaries - The Diaries of Robert Lindsay Mackay - Ypres 1917
(Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders)
"This continued for half an hour, when the light was just making itself apparent. Then we noticed a few ROYAL SCOTTS fall back, and then, nearer us, one or two Argylls. More and more came, so J.F.C.Cameron got his Lewis gun ready and looked after the left half of our front. I took the right half, intending to stop the men, and get them to reform, or if necessary, to dig in where they were.
Failure. "We Gained Some Ground In Front Of Ypres" - Press Bureau
At this time I noticed large numbers of Boche, and a counter-attack was developing on us, and across our front from the direction of Zevencote. The Boche were really getting busy, and their snipers made it difficult to move. I had to go at the double all the time - that, however, did not mean much as the bits of wire, and the mud and other obstructions made me relatively slow.
Got all our fellows who remained, (the others I could not but presume to be either dead or wounded or prisoners), together and spread them out with guns along about 500 yards parallel to the Frezenberg-Beck House Road. Our attack on Beck House and Borry Farm was a failure. These places could not be touched by our artillery. A big shell of ours could bounce off them! Their garrison probably exceeded that of our battalion. J.F.C.Cameron, in his escapade of the previous day when he got within 30 yards of Beck House found it garrisoned, and saw about another 50 men enter it.
After what seemed a long journey I got in touch on the right with the H.Q. of the Royal Scots. Their H.Q. was as bad as our own. I had to enter all doubled up, but the poor fellow who followed, a Scot, almost at my heels, was shot by a sniper, through the head. The sniper was some 50 yards off. Gradually we got a grip of things and organised a decent but terribly weak line. Boche gave us a thin time of it with his sniping and shelling.
Once I could not help feeling amused. Boche started shelling with light stuff, and I had to get down behind a wall, or rather a bit of a wall. Then our fellows started shelling with heavy stuff which fell short, and I had to crawl round to the other side of the wall, i.e. the Boche side. J.F.C. on the left flank did glorious work. His sang froid was extraordinary. He had rather a bad bit of line with a nasty big curve in it. He and his sergeant, a tough named Flynn, well deserved the honours they got for the show. Not an officer of ours came back, except McClure, Chesney and Muirhead, and they were all badly wounded. "
This will give some idea of what they had all suffered in the weeks leading up to the Jabber Track.
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ALLY 11 - hope you enjoy your ancestor's Military Service history. Incidently, in your original post post you mention the Jabber Track and the date 4th October, 1917. My grandfather was shot by a German machine gun that very day at Broodseinde which was in the vicinity of Jabber Track. Luckily, my grandfather survived, recovered, saw out the war (though wounded a second time), and returned home to Australia.
MALCOLM 33 - thanks for your interesting reply - it was certainly a tough time for our ancestors back then.
Les
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May I add a direct link to his Military records ... http://soda.naa.gov.au/record/4023694/1
and to the WWI nominal roll that shows he was Australian Army Provost Corps.
https://www.awm.gov.au/advanced-search/people?roll=First%20World%20War%20Nominal%20Roll
The Australian War Memorial's website includes Unit Diaries and also the Official History ...
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/official-histories-rolls-unit-diaries
My grandfather served in AIF, and after a serious gunshot wound, Bullecourt, May 1917 was sent to England for significant Plastic Surgery (a 'new' medical advance developed by a NZ doctor as a direct consequence of WWI experiences) and then sought to continue to serve, but with the AAMC (Medical Corp), He was often sent to London and then across the channel to escort those with serious wounds back to the permanent hospitals, and was often 'seconded' to Provost Corps work, for ten to twenty days at a time while on those medical duties. He was on one of the first of the walking wounded troop ships returning to New South Wales after the Armistice was signed.
The Official History is digitised. 4 October 1917, has quite a number of pages of text and maps, together with Beans usual footnotes in the fine print. I have not checked it closer.
JM