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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => West Lothian (Linlithgowshire) => Topic started by: MairiD on Monday 18 May 09 16:22 BST (UK)
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For Ostler,
Margaret Dudgeon married Thomas Downie (gardener) in 1810 at Torphichen, West Lothian. Three children, the middle one Janet b. 1813, Mid-Calder, Midlothian.
MairiD.
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Hi Mairi,
Do you have parents for Margaret?
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Yes, Robert Dudgeon, (weaver), and Janet White.
Margaret died in 1863 at 6, Salisbury St., Edinburgh.
MairiD.
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I don't have them either... any more information on Robert Dudgeon?
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No I don't.
Mairi.
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For Ostler,
Margaret Dudgeon married Thomas Downie (gardener) in 1810 at Torphichen, West Lothian. Three children, the middle one Janet b. 1813, Mid-Calder, Midlothian.
MairiD.
Thomas Downie and Margaret Dudgeon actually had at least seven children: John, Janet, Robert, Charles, James Jane and Thomas. Their eldest son John was a well known horticulturist and market gardener who had a market garden close to where Edinburgh Zoo is today. I've also tracked sons Charles born 1821 Moffat who was a Teacher of English and who died in 1863 in Canongate Edinburgh and James born about 1825 place so far unknown and who died at 6 Salisbury Street Edinburgh on 19 April 1858. Neither was married.
I've not been able to track Thomas Downie back as he appears to have died before 1855 - he was certainly listed as deceased on James's death certificate in 1858.
Ian Downie (not related), Aberdeen
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Hello Ian,
Yes, I did find more children after my post but forgot to update my findings here. Thank you for correcting me. I knew about John becoming a well-known and respected nurseryman.
I found John, b. 1811, Janet, b.1813, Margaret, b. 1816, Robert, b. 1818, Charles b. 1821, Jane b.c.1826, Thomas b.c. 1828.
I obviously missed James. Will have to go and find his birth date. Presumably he did not survive long.
An obituary states 'but the fact that his (John's) mother had been left with six children in addition to himself and that stern necessity had made him the bread-winner for the family, he entered upon the new post with characteristic energy, and brought up his brothers and sisters until they were able to shift for themselves.'
Thomas died in 1832 at Canaan, between Morningside and the Grange.
John's father's employer gave him (John) the position of head gardener at South Bank (House) at Canaan.
Have you got a special interest in these Downies?
MairiD
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You obviously failed to spot in my message that James died at the same place as his mother, 6 Salisbury Place, Edinburgh. Like you, I haven't found any record of his birth but his death certificate proves that he was a son of Thomas Downie and Margaret Dudgeon:
1858 Deaths Edinburgh 685/5 no 151
James Downie .... Single
died 1858 April Nineteeth ... 6 Salisbury St Edinburgh male age 32 years
Father Thomas Downie Gardener deceased
Mother Margaret Dudgeon
cause of death Disease of Heart
buried at Grange Cemetery
informant Charles Downie brother
This is only a partial transcription from a Downie friend who has a seat in New Register House and sends me all the Downies she finds. He was probably born in Moffat in about 1825 and could have been a twin of Jane, but I haven't found him in the 1851 Census so far - I rely mostly on FreeCEN. I don't know whether my friend missed out James's occupation or whether it was not on the certificate.
I have a general interest in all Downies since that is my surname. John is a relatively famous Downie, having a street named after him (Downie Terrace, Corstorphine, where he died on 5 November 1892). I have a website at http://www.downieabz.org.uk where I have information about my own family plus a number of more famous Downies. There is room for an entry on John Downie!
There is an outside chance that this family is related to mine since my ancestors moved from the East of Fife to the Edinburgh area and then Juniper Green, and there are some gardeners among them, including my GG Grandfather David Downie, born 10 March 1821 at Penicuik. Thomas is not a name which appears in earlier generations of the family but David had a brother Thomas born 12 October 1822 at Currie and there were several Thomas Downies in later generations.
I would be very interested to know what further information you have on Thomas Downie, John's father as I would like to be able to connect him to other Downie families I have in my database. I have John's obituary from The Scotsman but it gives no details of his origins - I hope you can give me a transcript (and the source) of the obituary you have, plus the source of your information about the date and place of his death (if different).
I'd be glad to exchange information with you about this family and will PM you my email address.
Ian
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Hello Ian,
Thank you for your prompt reply. At present I prefer communication directly through this site, though appreciate e-mail can be easier.
All the information you gave about 'James' is in fact that for Jane Downie. The name has been misread. It also has 'F' for female in the appropriate column. I found that DC in the summer and have just looked at it again to check my notes.
Thomas Downie died in 1832. My source was the OPRs(Deaths and Burials.) He was a gardener at Canaan, Parish of St. Cuthbert, and died of cancer, aged 48. That gives his birthdate as being around 1784.
I looked at a span of years and could only find one BC (OPRs) that was a possible match.
1784 John Downie Sailor in Leith and Margaret Jameson Sp. A S N. Thomas born 25th, bapd. 29th 1784 Witn. William Lowrie sailor in Leith, and Thomas Lowrie Gardiner (sic) there.
Did Lowrie morph to Downie I wonder. The names fit the family pattern--Thomas-John--Thomas -John, Margaret too. The possible grandfather was a gardener, though that was a common occupation. The birth date fits. South Leith was far from West Lothian but then John was a sailor.
John and Margaret Jameson married in 1781. To date I have found only Thomas, b. 1784 and Lyllias,
b. 1786. as issue.
I have seen the other 'Downie gardeners' at Juniper Green and Currie but have not found a link with John Downie, latterly of Corstorphine.
The source of my quote about him was 'The Gardeners' Chronicle, Dec. 1892. The agreement I signed when obtaining it means I cannot give you a transcript. The obituary in the Scotsman was similar however.
My brick walls concerned the later lives of James, b. 1844 and John, b. 1848, Edinburgh, the third and fourth sons of John Downie, (1811-1892) the nurseryman and his first wife, Alison Barrie. They helped their father in the early days. They may have emigrated.
Regards,
MairiD.
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Thanks for putting me right on the Jane/James confusion - my friend has deteriorating eyesight, which made her give up professional genealogy, and has obviously misread the certificate.
Unfortunately I subscribe to many different family history boards but I will make a note in my database of this correspondence instead of relying on the search facility in my email programme.
My family moved from Kilconquhar to South Leith some time between 1767 and 1770 as David Downie and Jean Boid had their fourth son in Kilconquhar in 1767 and their fifth, sixth and seventh in South Leith. I believe that David was the same David (labourer in South Leith) whose death on 11 February 1791 aged 55 and burial on 13 February is recorded in the South Leith OPR. That doesn't quite match his birth date of 9 October 1733 in Kilconquhar so there is still a doubt that this is his burial record, though the occupation is the same as shown on the birth records of the two sons whose records I could find.
I've been in to that OPR twice already, first for my Downies and then for another family in the early 19th Century whose head, Alexander, was a shipmaster - he was born in Braemar. There are lots of Downies there through the years so one day I must go through the whole thing.
I have often come across Lowries and Downies in the same OPR and I don't think there is any connection between the names. However I know that as I scroll through the films, I always stop when I see 'Lowrie' and double check.
Thanks for the information on Thomas Downie's burial record, which establishes his approximate date of birth. I have what appears to be a different record, from the Grange Cemetery records or a transcription from his gravestone, found on the Edinburgh Ancestors website (which I thought was defunct but has now been revitalised). I didn't know who it was but the details match fairly closely: Thomas Downie died 5 August 1832 aged 47. There is a picture of the gravestone there and I have sent a donation in the hope that the photograph which I will receive in return will be readable enough to make out the inscription: http://www.edinburghancestors.org.uk/dbase/site/Gravestones_Databaseview.php?ID=15883
Of course I didn't realise that this was the same Thomas but it seems quite likely. Can you give the full details from the OPR record to verify that this is the same person?
As an aside (maybe?), I have a William Downie born about 1796 in Crathie and Braemar who became head gardener at Traquair House. He was almost certainly a Catholic (he had a son who was a priest) and his birth is not recorded in the Braemar or Crathie OPRs. There are lots of loose ends in Braemar as there was a large Catholic population and the Catholic registers don't start till 1820. Some people had one or more of their children registered in the Church of Scotland OPR. He married Ann Frazer in November 1820 in South Leith and his son James Duncan Downie was a Gardener living at 43 Home Street, St Cuthberts in 1841. Unfortunately, William's death certificate, on which his son Robert William Wallace Downie of New Abbey Dumfries was the informant, does not give his mother's name, only the father William Downie Farmer (deceased). Most of the other children emigrated to Queensland and I have been in touch with their descendants.
I can't help at all with the children of John Downie and Alison Barrie as all I have is their dates of birth from IGI. I'm waiting for FreeCEN to find them in the 1851-71 Censuses!
All the best
Ian
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This is all I can add to what I have already given re. Thomas Downie.
OPR (Deaths) 685/02 0129 St. Cuthbert's
(died) August 5th 1832. The age on the DC is 48 not 47 but that is a minor detail.
The gravestone you found is definitely his. Son John is also buried in the Grange cemetery which is close to where they both worked.
MairiD
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Just curios I have mary bartholomew married to Thomas Dudgeon marr 21 jan 1851 St Cuthberts Parish is there any connections
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Not that I know of at present.
Thomas Dudgeon, b. c. 1829, the youngest son of Thomas the gardener, became a minisiter of the UP Church. He married a Martha. He died in Morningside in 1908.
Does the MC state your Thomas' occupation?
MairiD
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Hi,
I happen to come across your post about the Downie family. My great-great grandfather William Hunter's wife was a Jane Downie. I don't know much about her, except that they were married in Scotland, moved to Ireland (he was a blacksmith), and then went to Ontario, Canada. I don't have a birthdate for her from my records. I know that she wandered off while visiting her daughter in 1883 and was never found. My great-grandfather William B Hunter was born in 1846, in Ireland.
Do you know if she was married to a Hunter?
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I know this is probably useless information but, I own a book that belonged to Rev.d William Wallace Downie who was a priest at Saint Mary's Cathedral at New Abby off Broughton Street. The book is dated MDCCCL(1850) called "Passaglia Commentari. I bought it at an estate sale. I wanted to know who he was because there's a sticker note inside with his name & the church he was a Rev at. So, I just thought I would share. Because I think it's neat I own something that belonged to a member of your family lineage.
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I have seen the other 'Downie gardeners' at Juniper Green and Currie but have not found a link with John Downie, latterly of Corstorphine.
As far as I know, there is no link - those are my Downies. James Downie was born on 25 October 1806 in Currie, son of David Downie and Mary Kerr, and died on 28 August 1875 in South Leith. David Downie, his nephew and my great great grandfather, was born on 10 March 1821 in Penicuik, son of George Downie, slater and innkeeper in Juniper Green and his wife Ann Robertson, and died on 21 October 1875 in Juniper Green.
My brick walls concerned the later lives of James, b. 1844 and John, b. 1848, Edinburgh, the third and fourth sons of John Downie, (1811-1892) the nurseryman and his first wife, Alison Barrie. They helped their father in the early days. They may have emigrated.
James B[arrie] Downie died on 19 February 1868 in Edinburgh, as reported in the Dundee Courier and Argus of Friday 21 February 1868 page 4. John Bell Downie did indeed emigrate - he died on 27 March 1871 at Hampden Manse, Jamaica, at the residence of his uncle, the Rev. Thomas Downie - source Banffshire Journal and General Advertiser Tuesday 2 May 1871.
Thomas Downie went first to Nova Scotia as the first minister of the new Presbyterian Church in the Province in 1861 (Dundee Courier Wednesday 24 December 1862 page 4).
That should help with your brick wall.
Ian
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I know this is probably useless information but, I own a book that belonged to Rev.d William Wallace Downie who was a priest at Saint Mary's Cathedral at New Abby off Broughton Street. The book is dated MDCCCL(1850) called "Passaglia Commentari. I bought it at an estate sale. I wanted to know who he was because there's a sticker note inside with his name & the church he was a Rev at. So, I just thought I would share. Because I think it's neat I own something that belonged to a member of your family lineage.
Not at all useless. If you look back, you will see my earlier post includes this:
As an aside (maybe?), I have a William Downie born about 1796 in Crathie and Braemar who became head gardener at Traquair House. He was almost certainly a Catholic (he had a son who was a priest) and his birth is not recorded in the Braemar or Crathie OPRs. There are lots of loose ends in Braemar as there was a large Catholic population and the Catholic registers don't start till 1820. Some people had one or more of their children registered in the Church of Scotland OPR. He married Ann Frazer in November 1820 in South Leith and his son James Duncan Downie was a Gardener living at 43 Home Street, St Cuthberts in 1841. Unfortunately, William's death certificate, on which his son Robert William Wallace Downie of New Abbey Dumfries was the informant, does not give his mother's name, only the father William Downie Farmer (deceased). Most of the other children emigrated to Queensland and I have been in touch with their descendants.
Your book belonged to Robert William Wallace Downie, son of William Downie, gardener at Traquair House, and Ann Frazer. Can you post an exact transcription of the sticker? He was indeed a priest at St Mary's, Broughton Street, and is listed there in the 1856-7 Edinburgh and Leith Post Office Directory. He later (before the 1881 Census) moved to New Abbey in Dumfriesshire and he was still there in 1886 when he was the informant on his father's death certificate. I don't think anyone who has contributed to this topic is related (I doubt if I am) but I am in touch with descendants of his father who moved to Queensland. Obviously the priest doesn't have any descendants!
Ian
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Hi Ian, I wanted to make contact with you and assure you that William Wallace Downie does have descendants.
I am an Australian descendant of William Downie b.1797 Scotland d.29/06/1886 Traquair, and Ann Fraser/Frazer b.1797 Kirkmichael d.09/05/1885 Traquair- they were my 3rd Great Grandparents. William was Master Gardener & Factor at Traquair House, Traquair. They were married in November 1820 at South Leith and had 3 children. I have a copy Williams' Will & Probate information. Do you know that William also owned quite a bit of property in Innerleithen?
(1) James Duncan Downie b.11/01/1822 Edinburgh d.28/07/1883 Brisbane, Australia married Catherine Park 11/01/1841 at Traquair. Catherine b.09/12/1819 Peebles d.27/09/1874 Brisbane, Queensland, Australia, they were my 2nd Great Grandparents, they had 4 sons & 4 daughters and all immigrated to Australia. In Australia James D Downie's Employment was originally as a Prison Officer then Customs Officer.
(2) William Wallace Downie b.05/06/1825 Traquair d.20/02/1906 at New Abbey, Dumfries - he was my 3rd Great Uncle, who became a priest in the Church of Scotland, he studied for the priesthood at Blairs College, Aberdeenshire then Scots College, Rome, ordained in Rome in 1851 aged 26 years and not long after returned to Scotland to continue his ministry. I have his Obituary which was kindly forwarded to me by the Archivist of Scotland Scottish Catholic Archives.
(3) Margaret Downie b.1828 Traquair d.13/05/1883 Traquair. Margaret lived with her parents all her life, she never married, she was my 3rd Great Aunt.
Thankfully James & Catherine bred well so that line of the family has extended greatly over the years.
I know that Williams' father was also named William Downie, information from William and Ann's Scotland Marriage records but no mention of his mothers' name, can you please tell me if you have any information about William Downie Snr?
I also wanted to ask you if you could please give me contact details of the lady who sent you a message about a book which had belonged to William Wallace Downie as I would love to ask if she could either send me photographs of it or if perhaps I could purchase it from her, it would be wonderful to be able to pass it down through the family.
Michelle Pearce nee Downie
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Hello C Henderson,
I recently saw the message that you posted way back in January 2016 so joined RootsChat so that I could contact you about a book that you own which had originally belonged to a Catholic Priest named William Wallace Downie, I have to tell you that I was incredibly excited to read your message as William W Downie was my 3rd Great Uncle. I have been doing family research since 2011 and regarding William I have researched his life from when he was born in Traquair, Peeblesshire 05/06/1825 until he died 20/02/1906 at New Abbey, Dumfries.
I was wondering if you would be kind enough to either send me photographs of Williams' book or if you would permit me to buy it from you as I would love to be able to hand it down through the family with all of his other information.
By the way I live in Australia.
Regards, Michelle Pearce nee Downie :)