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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Wigtownshire => Topic started by: CobaltBlue on Monday 15 June 09 13:04 BST (UK)
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Has anyone studied the background of Lt Col Andrew McDowall, former MP for Wigtownshire, who died 1834 at Logan?
His known legitimate children with his wife Mary Russell were (I believe) James (b. 1796), Charlotte (b. 1798) and John Andrew (b. 1805)
Andrew McDowall’s will of 1838 refers to a marriage contract with his wife Mary Russell (dated 1808, after the birth of their children), and includes much legal language about ensuring his son James is recognised at his eldest legitimate son.
I would be very grateful if anyone has discovered any ‘illegitimate’ offspring of Lt Col Andrew McDowall. I have a suspicion that my ggg grandfather was one of them, but can’t yet prove it and so have hit the proverbial brick wall.
Many thanks in advance
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Is this the man to whom you are refering?
Mr Andrew McDouall
December 7, 1758 - May 3, 1834
Constituencies 1. Wigtownshire July 27, 1802 - April 15, 1805
Have you read all of the related papers in the NAS index?
This might be related to the terms in the will:
Reference GD45/17/1205
MS. and printed papers, including letters, concerning an action of declarator of marriage and legitimacy at the instance of Andrew McDouall of logan and James McDouall, his eldest son, against the Countess of Dalhousie and others
1832-1836
if so then this may be related also
GD135/1738
Copy minute for Andrew McDouall [McDowall] of Logan and James McDouall, his eldest son, in process of declarator against Christian Brown of Coalstoun [Colstoun], Countess of Dalhousie, and others, with printed record in action, 1833.
3/7/1832
From http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/organization/fencibles/c_fencibles2.html
The Breadalbane Fencibles 2nd Battalion under the command of Lieutenant Colonel Andrew McDouall of Logan existed from 1 March 1793 - 18 April 1799 and was located in Ireland.
With regard to his children the IGI has 2 entries, both with parents Andrew McDowell/Macdowall and Mary Russell/Russel.
Charlotte was christened in Cumberland, England 13th November 1798
John Andrew was christened in Cumberland, England 12th October 1805
Just so people don't spend time hunting in Scotland.
Do you believe the illegitimate offspring to have been born in Scotland or England? Do you have any further details that could be used to verify/disprove your theory?
Kirsty
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Many thanks to KirstyG for the comprehensive reply.
This is indeed the Andrew McDowall to whom I refer.
The story of my ggg grandfather William McDowall is rather long and complex. The short version is, he was probably born in Scotland around 1796, became a ‘philosophical’ (scientific) instrument maker in Edinburgh, and was active in this trade in the 1820s/1830s.
He married Clementina M Smith (daughter of the Darnley Bleachfields proprietor Robert Smith) in 1835. Whilst in Edinburgh, they had two children, Jessie Ainslie and Robert.
In 1839, the family embarked on the first official settlers ship (Bengal Merchant) from Glasgow to Wellington, New Zealand. Other children followed. William died in NZ in 1883, his age quoted variously as 81 and 87.
The suspicion that he may be one of Lt Col Andrew McDowall’s children is based on the following:
• William didn’t disclose his age to his immediate family.
• Referred to himself as “of Logan”.
• Owned a copy of the “Laws of Scotland” written by the famous Scottish lawyer Andrew McDowall (Lord Bankton) – telling Jessie and the other children that the lawyer was their uncle (more likely their gg uncle). If true, this would make it the correct McDowall line
• A surviving family letter refers to his brother James, who died in Scotland in 1872, aged 76. A search on Scotlandspeople shows this may have been Lt Col Andrew McDowall’s son and heir James.
• His daughter’s name Jessie Ainslie does not come from the Smith side, so is perhaps William’s mother’s name
Flimsy evidence I know, but as I say, it is only a suspicion
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The story of my ggg grandfather William McDowall is rather long and complex. The short version is, he was probably born in Scotland around 1796, became a ‘philosophical’ (scientific) instrument maker in Edinburgh, and was active in this trade in the 1820s/1830s.
Oh him again ;) I should have put two and two together really shouldn't I?
Other threads involving him
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,363022.msg2392280.html#msg2392280
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,363014.msg2392239.html#msg2392239
How certain are you of the date and place of birth you gave in the other thread?
I should point out from what little I have seen on Andrew McDowall for all he represented Wigtownshire as an MP he seems to have spent very little time there. Most of his letters in the NAS seem to be in respect of his various properties or constituency business.
Is it possible that William was related to that McDowall family, but through another member? Just trying to keep an open mind.
The Countess of Dalhousie mentioned in the papers was the daughter of a McDowall, so there could be another branch of the family to explore there.
It might be worth starting with the eminent lawyer in the early 1700s and working forward to see if the family lines do meet up. Let me know if you want any help :)
You never know this line may meet up with my McDowalls somewhere...
Kirsty
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Since posting my request, I have done a Google search on ‘The Scottish Jurist’ and ‘Countess of Dalhousie’ which brought to light an 1837 legal case summary which provides considerable background on Andrew McDowall and the legitimacy of his sons with wife Mary Russell. Tantalizingly, it also mentions other (unnamed) children, born in England, seemingly prior to his liaison with Mary. As Mary was apparently 17 or 18 when she met Andrew McDowall (he was aged around 38), it seems likely (though not impossible) that the ‘other children’ were of a different mother(s).
Andrew’s father (according to Burkes Peerage and Gentry) was John McDowall (m. Helen Buchan). John had a sister Isabel and a brother Patrick (b. 10 Feb 1727 at Logan). If ‘my’ William McDowall is not the illegitimate son of Andrew, then it is possible that he is from Patrick’s line. However, I have been unable to find any information relating to this Patrick.
Going back a further generation brings me to Andrew’s grandfather John (m. Anna Johnstone), and his brothers, the lawyer Andrew McDowall (Lord Bankton), and Patrick. Despite Lord Bankton’s four or five marriages, he remained, according to the records, childless. Patrick however (spouse unknown) produced a son John (of Culgroat) and two daughters. I have been unable to find any information relating to this John of Culgroat
In summary, I seem to have the choice of
• Lt Col Andrew McDowall’s ‘illegitimate’ English offspring
• The line (if any) of Andrew’s uncle Patrick
• The line (if any) of John of Culgroat
Any of these options is still in keeping with William telling his children about the ‘Laws of Scotland’ book written by ‘your uncle McDowall’. There is also the fact to remember that William had a brother James (presumably full, not half), who died in 1872, aged 76
If anyone has the time and/or inclination to shed further light on my ‘William problem’, I would be very grateful
Many thanks
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If you search the NAS for Culgroat it gets 6 hits. A couple of these are Wills which contain names and relationships in the summaries. Should get you started.
eg GD141/350
In a Crown Signature to Andrew McDowell younger of Logan only son of John McDowell of Logan and Bankton by the deceast Mrs. Helen Buchan his spouse, the following substitutes are named.
(1) Sarah McDowell sister of the said John McDowell of Logan, niece of deceast Andrew McDowell Lord Bankton
and wife of deceast Charles Hamilton of Creichlaw.
(2) Isabel McDowell sister of said John McDowell of Logan and spouse of Mr. Andrew Adair of Ganoch minister of
Whithorn.
(3) Heirs male of deceast Patrick McDowell late of Culgroat advocate, cousin of the said Lord Bankton.
(4) Heirs male of deceast James McDowell merchant in Edinburgh, cousin of said Lord Bankton.
(5) Charles McDowell late of Creichan advocate, cousin to said Lord Bankton
Kirsty
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The Patrick McDowall you mentioned b 1727 would have been the son of John McDowall and Ann Johnston,
I did think it seemed a bit far back for them to have been brothers. He would have been the uncle of Andrew.
There is a christening in the IGI for 14th Feb 1727 with those parents. (under Patrick Mcdoual)
There was a Charles Mcdouall b 1709 to Patrick Mcdouall and Elizabeth Martin in Edinburgh, given the names it could be a relation.
Edit - ignore me being stupid and misreading your post, sorry getting my generations mixed up already.
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From scotsfind:
http://www.scotsfind.org/databases_free/EdinburghMarriageRegister1701-1750.pdf
"M'Dowall(M'Douale/M'Dowall/M'Dowal) of Crichan, Patrick, younger; Mrs Elizabeth Martine, d. of Robert M. of Burnbrae, 2 Mar 1701, m. 20 Mar 1701"
Issue: (IGI extracted)
Robert 1704
Charles 1709
Alexander 1715
Isobell 1718
Patritia 1723
There is a will on Scotland's People for Patrick McDouall of Crichan WS from 1734, 10 pages with lots of stuff.
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Bell McDowall married Andrew Adair 14th July 1747 Kirkmaiden by Drumore, Wigtown [IGI extracted]
"Mr Andrew ADAIR Min.[ister] at Whithorn to Isabella (Bell) MCDOWALL were married 14th July 1747 "
Transcription of MI of Sarah McDowall wife of Charles Hamilton can be found here:
http://www.ayrshirepast.com/people/view/1449-william-charles-hamilton/
begins "HERE
IS INTERRED THE BODY OF SARAH McDOWALL
SPOUSE TO CHARLES HAMILTON ESQ. OF CRAICHLAW
WHO DIED 24TH OF MARCH 1760 AGED 48 YEARS"
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~leighann/1684/intro.html
Lots of McDowalls in all their wonderous spelling variances (search for "dow") including some of this family.
Some other people have evidently been researching bits of this family before
http://genforum.genealogy.com/adair/messages/5981.html
http://genforum.genealogy.com/adair/messages/5959.html
Just remember - Check your sources! This one looks to be a bit of a minefield...
Kirsty
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Andrew’s father (according to Burkes Peerage and Gentry) was John McDowall (m. Helen Buchan). John had a sister Isabel and a brother Patrick (b. 10 Feb 1727 at Logan). If ‘my’ William McDowall is not the illegitimate son of Andrew, then it is possible that he is from Patrick’s line. However, I have been unable to find any information relating to this Patrick.
Parents John McDouall and Hellen Buchan [IGI extracted]
Andrew McDouall Christened 8th December 1758 Kirkmaiden by Drummore, Wigtown
Christian McDouall christened 12th September 1760 Kirkmaiden by Drummore, Wigtown
Helen McDouall christened 19th December 1761 Kirkmaiden by Drummore, Wigtown
Scotlands people has a will for
Robert McDouall of Logan 06/06/1729
There is a submitted entry on the IGI for a birth making him brother to Patrick (and presumably John?)
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Scotlands National Archives have documents relating to an illegitimate child of Andrew McDouall. The story of this childs conception is immortalised in the songs "Young Peggy" and "Ye Banks and Braes o' Bonie Doon' by Robert Burns, who had met, and was fascinated by the young Peggy. The child, named Helen, was the daughter of Margaret Kennedy, of Daljarroch, who claimed she had secretly married Andrew McDouall, who denied the marriage and paternity. The case was taken to court, and initially won by Margaret Kennedy, however, McDouall appealled the decision, but Margaret "Peggy" Kennedy died in 1796, before the results were given. The appeal overturned the original decision regarding the marriage, but awarded the sum of three thousand pounds to Helen, the child, to be paid by Andrew McDouall, thus confirming his parentage. There are quite a few references to this relationship available on the web particularly concerning the Robert Burns connection.
Margaret Kennedy was my great great aunty, she was the daughter of Robert Kennedy of Daljarroch and Grizel Cathcart (the grandaughter of Sir John Kennedy, 2nd Baronet). I will try to find the reference at NAS and post later.
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Reference to papers referred to previously.
As I live in NZ I've never actually got around to getting copies of these documents from NAS.
Reference Title Date
CC8 Edinburgh Commissary Court 1514-1859
Country code GB
Repository code 234
Repository National Archives of Scotland
Reference CC8/6/1120
Title Kennedy v McDowall
Dates 1801
Access status Open
Description Margaret Kennedy, eldest lawful daughter of the deceased Robert Kennedy of Daljarroch Esq, and Helen McDowall, her daughter, against Lieutenant Colonel Andrew McDowall, younger, of Logan Esq
Level File
Creator name Commissary Court of Edinburgh
Previous numbers CC8/6/70; 49/2
Related material CC8/5/25/473
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There's a good tree here showing some of these relationships.
If you take it out to 4 generations of descendants there are some Martins at the bottom of the page (married to Agnes Vaus)
http://genealogy.jvans.co.uk/descend.php?personID=I330&tree=1
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I have visited this thread from time to time, and now wish to chime in.
According to oral family stories, I descend from the Logan line, but I very much doubt that I'll ever be able to establish that as fact.
I have 2 other McDOUALLs who I have been trying to link where there may be a better chance.
One is a John McDOUALL or McDOWALL who was a Merchant and Magistrate in Stranraer. He married Jean KERR 1765 and they had 11 children recorded there. Son Robert had a distinguished military carreer and Alexander a Merchant, Magistrate, and Provost of Stranraer. John McDOUALL's first son was named Patrick, so maybe that was his father's name.
The other is one of Col Andrew McDOUALL's illegitimate children, which I haven't yet seen mentioned on this thread. From the Kirkmaiden parish Baptism Register:
"1784, Kirkmaiden : Mary, illegit daur of Andrew McDowall, Esqr & Jean McWilliam born 10th Augt
bapt 6th Septr. [end]"
There has been a claim made that she was the Mary D McDOWALL who married Charles PAUL and emigrated to New Jersey. That may be true, but she seems to fit nicely with the Mary McDOUALL who married Captain William STUART in 1804 and had 9 children, one of whom was John McDouall STUART, a notable explorer in Australia.
There have been reports on this thread of wills etc in NRS. Before I consider downloading some of these via Scotlandpeople, I wonder if any of you have already done so, or otherwise can comment on the cases I have raised?
Bruce
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Hi Bruce
I have not downloaded any of the papers mentioned in this thread. I have not done further research since my last post but would be interested to know if any of the lines could be confirmed.
Kirsty
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Just stumbled across this thread when searching for one of my ancesters.
I am a decendent of Mary McDouall (1779 - 1826), Mary was an illegitimate child of Andrew McDouall of Logan. He was reported to be a ladies man as there were other known illegitimate children such as Helen McDouall, born to Peggy Kennedy. She actually took Andrew to court over this and his promise of marriage and she was awarded 3000 pounds.
Some of the McDouall family history including the above is featured in the book 'John McDouall Stuart' by Mona Stuart Webster which was published in 1958. Mary McDouall married William Charles Stuart and they had many children including John McDouall Stuart, one of Australia's most notable explorers. There may be other historical sources relating to John McDoaull Stuart that discuss the McDouall lineage but the one mentioned above seems to be the best I've come across thus far.
Goodluck.
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Hello, I am searching for my ancestors in Logan.
Can you tell me the name of your Mary's mother please?
Was she also an illegitimate daughter of Lt Col Andrew McDouall?
I am assuming that your Mary and the Mary illegitimate daughter with the mother Jean McWiiliam are not the same?
Thank you Pauline McDouall
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Hi poppymac,
Early last year (2019) The Scottish Genealogist published a paper about William McDowell, the scientific instrument maker who emigrated to NZ in 1839, and his extended family including the link to Lord Bankton.
How far back have you been able to get with your McDouall line?
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Evening
Thanks for your reply.
My ancestry is London based up to GGG grandfather Edward born 1794.
We think his father Edward was born in Galloway c 1765, although this has been told to me by the person who has researched the McDoualls for very many years, and he and his wife lived in London when their children were born . His wife Elizabeth Long.
This is where it becomes difficult. It seems Alexander McDouall father to Edward 1765 was born in London. We now need to find his marriage to Elisabeth MC William and his mother and father, who the researcher thinks is Col Andrew McDouall.
I am due to visit Galloway to continue the search for the link.
One thing is, we pronounce the name to rhyme with fool and not owl, which is a distinction that is important.😊
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To avoid duplicating here's a previous thread about your family
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=405376.9
May I ask what makes you think Edward Snr was from Scotland?
The reason I ask is that it was a short trip by sea from Galloway to Ireland and a lot of McDowalls (yes - I know the way it is said is different, but even by 1800 the spelling wasn't always consistent and some records would assume there was a g missing and add it) settled in Ireland over the centuries.
Another thing to consider is that the forename Uchred/Uthred wasn't uncommon in Galloway - I think it's a variant of Edward.
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Yes thanks for that. I had seen this thread and I do know the people. One is a cousin and in fact what happened to his father has recently been resolved.
I don't know if Edward Senior was from Galloway. That was told to me by the person who has been researching the family, what proof there is, she has, I am just offering to do the research in Galloway.
In fact, another member of my family says she has researched back to the Freugh line. So you see, until either researcher gives me proof, all I can do is take their guidance as they have done their research.
I have been asked to look for certain people. I am asking questions, as it is pretty complicated.
That thread shows Edward, 1794 had parents Edward and Elizabeth. It gets pretty difficult when everyone has the same name 😊 But it does concur with the research, however it doesn't say that he was born in Galloway 🤭
I didn't know that Uchred was maybe a varient of Edward, anglicised I assume.
Before I go across to Galloway I am waiting for confirmation of a few things. As I am being asked ref a Col Andrews McD, I thought I would ask questions about the Lt Col and his children to see if the time line is correct for any if my line being illegitimate. But looking, perhaps not. I have seen Col Andrew McDouall was father of an illegitimate child with Jean McWilliam, baptised Kirkmaiden 10August 1784. The McWiilliam name is one I've been asked to find with Col Andrew McD but not Jean
Thanks for your interest and comments, much appreciated
Oh yes, the pronunciation. I was speaking to a Mr Mc Colm in Drummore in 1999 when I was first looking for my family's clan. He was emphatic that our pronunciation was correct and not to be swayed otherwise 😅. And yes, over the years people have misspelled, mispronounced my name on so many occasions ha ha.
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The Logan lines and Freugh lines are separate lineages that don't connect patrilinearly within the past 500 years.
If you have a male relative descended down his patrilineal line from Edward McDouall you could ask them whether they'd do a Y-DNA test. There were McDoualls and McDowalls all over Galloway so I think it will be difficult to make a link from someone born in London in the 1790s back to a specific family in Scotland.
The Logan line is:
Robert McDouall of Logan and Sarah Shaw (n 1678) had three sons, John, Andrew and Patrick.
The eldest son John McDouall of Logan m Ann Johnstone about 1710. Their son John McDouall of Logan married Helen Buchan, who were the parents of Lt Col Andrew McDouall who died in 1834. The article in The Scottish Genealogist early last year is about two of his natural born daughters Helen (born 1794, daughter of Peggy Kennedy) and particularly Mary (born 1784, daughter of Jean McWilliam) and her descendants, including John McDouall Stuart the Australian explorer. Andrew also had several children with Mary Russell (his future wife) including James McDouall of Logan who was born in 1796 (before the marriage of his parents in 1825). He was later legitimised by his parents' marriage and his father made it clear that James was his heir, not the younger children.
The second son of Robt McDouall and Sarah Shaw was Andrew McDouall (Lord Bankton) who died in Edinburgh and his tomb is at Greyfriars.
The third son of Robt McDouall and Sarah Shaw was Patrick McDouall of Culgroat. He had a son John but the male line died out and Culgroat passed to the family of his eldest brother John.
This is an earlier thread about Edward McDouall, at which stage it appears that links to McDouall of Logan or McDouall of Freugh were speculative not proven. Perhaps there have been subsequent developments.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=451312.msg3411702#msg3411702
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That is so interesting, thank you so much. I knew some of what you have written, but you have made it very clear, thank you. I am a female direct line descendant of Edward, through the male line. We have a few of the family, direct line descendants of Edward who have had a DNA test done. As I do not know anything about how the test works, could you enlighten me. It has to be specific Y tested, or do you get both results? Thanks again, and yes, it could be very difficult to prove any relationship, but good fun trying
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Hi Poppymack,
Regarding DNA testing I think the most useful test at this stage would be a Y-DNA of someone who is a patrilineal descendant of your Edward McDouall - i.e. Edward's son's son's son etc. Do you have a male 'McDouall' relative who could test?
FamilyTreeDNA currently has a sale on these tests until 21st June.
https://www.familytreedna.com/products/y-dna#/compare
I manage one Y-DNA and sponsored another (two different branches of my family).
The first kit I was involved with is one I helped pay for in 2018. He took the Y37 test and has six matches at that level, and there's been no new matches since. None of them have a similar surname to him - the earliest known patrilineal ancestor of the best match is from a similar part of the British Isles to my relative. We've not found the link yet.
For next relative we began with Y67 (no longer available). There were just three matches at that level and surprisingly they're quite close matches and they all had pretty much the same surname as the tester. We've not found the connection yet as they're in North America and aren't certain of their link to the British Isles. Since then two other matches at Y67 have appeared. They're more distant and have different surnames, but that's a 50% increase on matches since 2018. Since then the kit has been upgraded to Y700.
You may not get a useful match straight away, but then again you just might. Since the mystery is the origins of your patrilineal relative I think it's worth doing.
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Thank you so much for all that information.
My father's cousin, down the male line has just taken a DNA test to see if anything is revealed.
Thanks once again. If anything comes of it, I will let you know
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How exciting!
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Has there been any news on the DNA test?
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Just stumbled across this thread when searching for one of my ancesters.
I am a decendent of Mary McDouall (1779 - 1826), Mary was an illegitimate child of Andrew McDouall of Logan. He was reported to be a ladies man as there were other known illegitimate children such as Helen McDouall, born to Peggy Kennedy. She actually took Andrew to court over this and his promise of marriage and she was awarded 3000 pounds.
Some of the McDouall family history including the above is featured in the book 'John McDouall Stuart' by Mona Stuart Webster which was published in 1958. Mary McDouall married William Charles Stuart and they had many children including John McDouall Stuart, one of Australia's most notable explorers. There may be other historical sources relating to John McDoaull Stuart that discuss the McDouall lineage but the one mentioned above seems to be the best I've come across thus far.
Goodluck.
I too have just come across this thread.
I am researching soldiers of the Napoleonic era, around 1807.
I have a Captain Samuel McDouall / McDowall, who married a Miss Elizabeth Ann Tregent/
She was baptised at Easton, Hampshire 4 Jan 1788.
The family were residing at Weeley in Essex in 1807.
The brides father was Abraham James Tregent, and at the time of daughters marriage was a Deputy Barrack Master, it is assumed this was at Weeley Barracks, Essex. He had been a former Royal Marine.
Samuel and Elizabeth had at least one known child, a son Andrew James McDouall, baptised 14 March 1808, All Saints Church, Dovercourt, Harwich, Essex.
Samuel's military history states that he retired 8th June 1809.
He died 1819 in the West Indies.
I know it is a very long shot, but does this Samuel McDouall fit in with anybody's Family Tree, as I would like to know how and why Samuel ended up in the West Indies.
Regards
Richard
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Hi just to let you know I did a quick search on Ancestry. There is a public tree available to view. They have Samuel McDonall Captain 79th regiment. This spelling is a common mistake I've noticed in transcripts. The rest with regards to wife and in laws is the same as noted in your question above. One thing it shows a daughter Fanny Ann, but no mention of Samuel's parentage.
You could try searching for Elizabeth Ann and contact the tree holder direct. They may know something.
We have a Samuel in our tree but not this one.
Good luck