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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) => Topic started by: henery on Wednesday 17 June 09 15:45 BST (UK)
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Hi everyone.
Can someone help me in finding out what happened to a Florence Cartwright, believed to have been born in Rotherham about 1895?
She had a sister called Annie Eliza Cartwright born 1893.
Florence married a Robert Dines or Dynes date unknown.
Family legend believes that Robert went to Australia and that he trained to be a pilot.He returned to England, date unknown. and is said to have been killed.
Can anyone help?
Thanks from Henery. ??? ???
Sorry its Dines or Dynes
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Hello Henery
I'm drawing a blank at the moment. I can see a Florence Cartwright b Dec qtr 1895 Rotherham, but she seems from the 1901 census likely to be a daughter of William & Louisa Cartwright in Swinton (in Rotherham RD). No Annie among her siblings.
Then I can see an Annie Eliza Cartwright b Sep qtr 1893 Rotherham, who seems from the 1901 census to be a daughter of William & Annie Cartwright in Rotherham itself. She has several siblings but no Florence among them.
I can also see no trace of a marriage for Florence to Robert Dines/Dynes or any sign of them as a couple in e.g. immigration/emigration records.
Is there anything else you know that might be a clue? Did Robert and Florence have children, to your knowledge? (NB don't post details of living people, per Rootschat policy).
Would love to help but am stuck for now!
Anna :)
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Hello
Annie Eliza Cartwright born 1893 Rotherham had a sister Florence who was born in 1884. She appears on the 1891 census with parents William and Annie at reference Rotherham RG12/3849 Folio 77 Page 31
Since there is a question mark against her age in the original post, is it possible that the Florence we are looking for could have been eleven years older than originally thought ?
posteria
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In 1901 this Annie Eliza Cartwright’s sister, Florence, is living with her Aunt, Mary Holden nee Pierpoint in Derbyshire at reference Belper RG13/3228 Folio 18 Page 28. That is why she does not appear with her parents, William and Annie nee Pierpoint in 1901.
Florence is still living with the Holden’s in Belper on the 1911 census and in 1915 she married her cousin, Wilfrid Holden.
posteria
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This might be coincidental or irrelevant but it is interesting ....
On 23/12/1920 a Robert I Dines aged 26 sailed to Sydney on board the “Medic”. He was listed as a Farmer. (He is indexed as Robert J Dines)
A Robert Imrie Dines was born in 1894 in Hampstead.
On 08/06/1929 a Mrs Florence Dines aged 40 and her 1 year old son, Robert Imrie Dines arrived in England from Australia. Their address in England is shown as Longwood, Chelford, Kent.
On the previous entry there is a Mr Henry Robert Dines aged 70 and Mrs Elizabeth Dines aged 62 with the address Longwood, Chelsford. He is a retired Bank Manager.
They all sailed back on the "Ulysses", boarding at Melbourne.
posteria
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On 23/04/1927 Henry Dines aged 68 and Elizabeth Dines aged 60, sailed from Liverpool to Montreal, Canada on board the “Andania”. He is shown to be retired and their address was shown then to be Chandlers Ford, Hants.
posteria
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Posteria - that is brilliant!
Here's an online birth announcement from Australia (apparently from the Melbourne Argus of 2 September 1927) which suggests that Robert Imrie Dines Snr (a Flt Lt, so consistent with the flying story) had died before the birth of Robert Imrie Dines Jnr:
DINES. -On the 31st August, at Ulverstone, North
road, Brighton, to the late Flight-Lieutenant
Dines & Mrs. R.I. Dines -a son (Robert Imrie).
http://ndpbeta.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/correction/3876582
English records also show the death of a Robert Imrie Dines in SW Dorset in Sep 2002 -DOB given as 31 August 1927.
Anna :)
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Hello Anna
This may also be irrelevant or it may contain a word which is very relevant ...
On 06/07/1924 a Florence Dines aged 35 arrived at Southampton on board the “Hobson’s Bay” from Brisbane.
Her address in UK is shown as Belpur, Devon which might really have been Belper, Derby and she may have been visiting relatives ?
posteria
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Hello Anna
This may also be irrelevant or it may contain a word which is very relevant ...
On 06/07/1924 a Florence Dines aged 35 arrived at Southampton on board the “Hobson’s Bay” from Brisbane.
Her address in UK is shown as Belpur, Devon which might really have been Belper, Derby and she may have been visiting relatives ?
posteria
I like it!
The 1924 Australian electoral roll for Victoria shows a Robert Imrie Dines as an orchardist, address Tresco West.
In the same year at Toorak, Fawkner, Victoria was this couple:
Florence DINES (occupation: home duties)
Robert Imrie DINES (occupation: nil)
both at 40, Hawksburn Rd, Toorak
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Hello everyone
What a mass of info you are all providing for me about Florence and Robert.A lot of it seems to match in with family hearsay.
One extra piece of info which seems to tie in Florence
is believed to have lived in Devon maybe after death of Robert who may have died in an aircrash.
Many thanks again, I will be back this afternoon to absorb all your info.
Henery :) :) :)
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Hello
This might be yet another coincidence or irrelevance but on 6th September 1915 a Wilfred Holden from Belper was killed in action at Gallipoli.
He was a Lance Corporal in the Household Cavalry and Cavalry of the Line (including Yeomanry and Imperial Camel Corps), Derbyshire Yeomanry Battalion. His service number was 1811
The marriage of a Florence Cartwright and a Wilfred Holden, which I referred to earlier, had taken place in the first quarter of 1915 at Belper.
posteria
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From the birth registration indexes, on FreeBMD, there were only two children called Wilfred Holden born at Belper. One was born in 1883 and he lived in the same household as Florence Cartwright in 1901 and 1911. The other was called Wilfred Charles Holden who was born and died in 1896.
It now seems relevant and highly probable that the Wilfred Holden born in 1883 married Florence at the beginning of 1915 and was then killed in action later in the same year.
posteria
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The marriage between William Holden and Florence Cartwright took place on 4th January 1915 at Hazlewood.
The bride was aged 30 and the groom was 32.
The bride’s father was William Cartwright and the groom’s father was William Holden
From “England & Wales Marriages 1538-1940” database on Ancestry
posteria
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Hi everyone
First a big thank you to all for the info supplied on Florence and Robert. Definitely Dines.
posteria. Your reply no.3 confirms that Florence did exist, when I could not find her in 1901 and 1911 I was beginning to have doubts.
It seems possible that she was born1884 which confirms family accounts that she was one of 17 children!! fathered by William Cartwright who married Anne in 1882. There is a sudden gap between1st son Percy B1882 and 2nd son Ernest B1890. Belper was also a place of residence for members of the family at a later date. The possible marriage to Wilfred Holden in 1915 is the first reference the family have to a connection with Holden.
It now appears that Florence was married twice .But I cannot find references to either of them.
Reply no10 Wilfred Holden at Gallipoli is very interesting.I have tried CWGC but cannot locate him on their records.I must look somewhere else.
Reply 4 about a Robert Dines aged 26 sailing to Australia, is there no reference to Florence?
Anna reply no.6 your info from the Melbourne Argus seems to be spot on!!
No8 I wonder what an Orchardist is?
What a lot of info you have all obtained for me.
Many many thanks.
Henery :) :) :)
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The possible marriage to Wilfred Holden in 1915 is the first reference the family have to a connection with Holden.
It now appears that Florence was married twice .But I cannot find references to either of them.
The first is easy - it's on FreeBMD:
Marriage Mar qtr 1915
Cartwright Florence (to Holden)
Holden Wilfrid (to Cartwright)
Belper 7b 907
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For some reason Wilfrid/Wilfred Holden's death on CWGC seems to be recorded as J.H. Holden (the other details all match those found above by posteria):
http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=602283
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I wonder what an Orchardist is?
A person who farms/cultivates an orchard, I expect. Not a million miles from the occupation of "farmer" on Robert I. Dines' 1920 emigration record (on which, incidentally, there is no Florence Dines listed).
There's no obvious evidence to suggest that Florence and Robert married or even met in England - they might have found each other Down Under...
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Posteria
Thanks again, for some reason when looking for Wilfred Holden on Freebmd I could not find the marriage, but 'Hey Presto' looking for Florence there it was.
Henery
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when looking for Wilfred Holden on Freebmd I could not find the marriage, but 'Hey Presto' looking for Florence there it was.
Perhaps you typed in Wilfred - he's down as Wilfrid
Anna (not posteria ;))
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Thanks anna for repliy
when looking for Wilfred Holden on Freebmd I could not find the marriage, but 'Hey Presto' looking for Florence there it was.
Perhaps you typed in Wilfred - he's down as Wilfrid
Anna (not posteria ;))
no. 18
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On 31/03/1925 Florence Dines (age shown as 36) returned to Australia. She travelled on the "Hobsons Bay" from London to Melbourne. Her occupation is given as “Home Duties” and her last address in UK was “Rothsay”, Chandler’s Ford, Southampton - which seems to confirm that the lady who arrived in 1924 was the correct person.
Incidentally, Robert Imrie Dines does appear on the 1901 census with his parents and two siblings but on Ancestry (everyone will be amazed to learn) their surname has been mistranscribed. They all suffered from a case of transposed vowels. According to the census, he was born in Kilburn.
posteria
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On 8th February 1922 a Mrs Florence Holden (shown as aged 33) sailed from London to Melbourne on the “Berrima”. Her last address in UK is given as Manor Farm, Squirrels Heath, Romford.
This might not be the correct lady but she seems to be the only possible “fit” on the passenger lists that I can see.
The Dines family were living in Romford in 1901 but they were all in Dartford, Kent in 1911.
If this is the correct lady, then we would need to find a marriage in Australia from 1922 to 1924 inclusive.
posteria
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On 9th June 1949, a Florence Dines, Widow, aged 65 sailed from London to Melbourne on the “Strathaird“. Her last address in UK is shown as Carinja, Berrynarbor (wherever that might be ?).
This could possibly be your lady and I have not found a record of her coming back, as yet.
posteria
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Posteria, Berrynabor is near Ilfracombe, Devon.
Dee
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Hello Dee
Thank you. That information seems to bear out what henery thought ...
Florence is believed to have lived in Devon maybe after death of Robert who may have died in an aircrash.
henery
Two DH9 machines crashed over Melbourne on 21/04/1927 killing four RAAF personnel, including Flight Lieutenant R I Dines. Some digitised documents relating to the crash can be found on the following site ....
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/recordsearch/index.aspx
.... by choosing "Search Now" and then entering Crash over Melbourne in the "Keywords" box and 1927 in the "Dates" box and then clicking on "Search". (There are probably several other ways to get to the documents but the method outlined does work).
posteria
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Hello posteria
You seem to have located Florence correctly. Ilfracombe North Devon is the last known family memory.
Thanks Dee for your contribution re: Berrynabor.
The Naa.au. site you gave gives details of evidence to the Enquiry commission.
Thanks for all your efforts in this involved investigation involving two continents.
Henery :) :)
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Hello Henery,
I can help you.
Florence Cartwright (of Rotherham) and Robert Imrie Dines were my grandparents. I am a daughter of their son, Robert Imrie Dines (b. 1927 in Brighton, Victoria, Australia). My grandmother, Florence Cartwright, returned to England from Australia with my father shortly after his birth. They lived in Ilfracombe and other towns listed in these posts. My father's father, also named Robert Imrie Dines, was English by birth, migrated to Australia in the 1920's and became a pilot at the rank of Flight Lieutenant in the Royal Australian Air Force. He was killed in an air show for the Duke and Duchess of York (the late Queen Mother) in April 1927, a couple of months before my father was born.
My father is the Robert Imrie Dines whose death is reported in another post above in September 2002 in Swanage, Dorset.
I can give you more info if it would be helpful, and I have some photos of my grandmother too.
Cheers, Sarah
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Hi Sarah
Thanks for providing further information on Florence Dines nee Cartwright. The info you have given ties in with research into her family history. Florence was sister to my wife's Aunt Annie Elizabeth Jenkins nee Cartwright.
When gathering details for the construction of a Family Tree I became intrigued by references to a Robert Dines who died in an aircrash. This is the crash you refer to in your message. I had originally been following a trail where Florence had married a soldier who became a casualty in WW1. This man 'Wilfrid Holden' born in Belper, Derbyshire was Florence's cousin and first husband. The details you have provided confirms Florence's second marriage which also ended in tragedy with the death of Robert Dines. I have been unable to find details of Florence's marriage to Robert so that is a blank area in my research into her life. Also date of death and where. I wonder do you have this info?
Thank you for your kind offer to provide a photo of Florence. In return, if you have an interest, I can forward a photo of Florence's sister Annie with husband John Jenkins. We are warned by the regulator to forward any personal details or email address by private message. To carry this out you have to send three separate messages, of which you have already sent one. If you acknowledge this message twice you should be in position to use the facility.
Regards
Henery
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Hi Henery,
A short reply. I believe Florence died in Swanage, Dorset some time between 1962 and 1968. I will ask my sister and let you know.
Cheers,
Sarah
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I am a teacher at Dartford Grammar School in Kent, England, and I have been researching the pupils from the school who fought during World War I.
Robert Imrie Dines was a pupil at the school, as was his brother, and so I have some information for you about them based on sources at the school such as the admissions register and the school magazine. I also have a photo of each of them.
Captain Robert Imrie Dines
R.I. Dines was born on 27/07/1894. His father was Henry R. Dines who was a bank manager in Dartford High Street. The family lived in the High Street in Dartford. He attended DGS from 1908 to 1912. He was a member of the OTC (Officers Training Corps) from its creation in 1909 until 1912 and was ranked as a Corporal. After leaving he worked as a bank clerk. He enlisted in the West Kent Yeomanry on 04/08/1914. He was gazetted as a 2nd Lieutenant in the 10th London Regiment on 14/07/1915; in this regiment he would have served alongside another Old Dartfordian named Captain Arthur Scrivener - an old school friend. He served in Suvla Bay in Gallipoli from August 1915 until the campaign was called off in late December / early January 1916. He then served in Egypt against the Senussi and then in the Sinai Peninsula. He transferred to the RAF whilst in Egypt in October 1916. He then served on the Western Front as an observer and then as a pilot from 1916 to 1918. He was wounded twice.
Lieutenant Henry George Dines
Known as “George.” H. George Dines was born on 20/10/1891. He attended DGS from 1908 to 1911. He was a member of the OTC from 1909 to 1911, ranked Colour Sergeant. He was a school prefect from 1909. After leaving he worked at an engineering works. He studied at the University of London. He enlisted in the Royal Navy Divisional Engineers on 18/09/1914. He served at Cape Helles, Gallipoli, in 1915 and wrote a letter to the school describing his experience; this was printed in the school magazine (transcript below). He was wounded twice, including May 1915. He was gazetted 2nd Lieutenant in the Royal Engineers (Tunnelling) on 15/04/1916. He married Edith Dorothy Connell on 27/12/1916 in Guildford, Surrey. He served on the Western Front from 1916 to 1918. Served at the Hohenzollern Redoubt near Loos. Wounded in 1918. Demobilised in 1919. After the war he went back to the Royal School of Mines. He died in Surrey in 1964.
The boys' father, Henry R. Dines, was also a school governor. During the war he became a member of the local committee that decided who in Dartford would be conscripted for military service and who would not. Since many teachers at the school were sent off to fight by the committee this obviously meant there was a difficult relationship between the head and his governors, such as Dines.
Dave Barrett
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Henry George Dines's letter from Gallipoli:
H. George Dines, Royal Naval Division Divisional Engineers, “A Baptism of Fire.”
Number Two Company were cheering us off. When we got about a hundred yards from the land, we heard spent bullets whizzing all about us, and dropping in the sea. However, we landed safely, and marched along the beach, passing water waggons, guns, stores, mules and men at various kinds of work. Red Cross men were bringing in the wounded, and at one place a row of graves with wooden crosses, made of packing-case wood, was seen. The steep hills were covered with scrub, between which were numerous holes in which were men’s kits, and men sitting smoking. We came to a place where holes had evidently been evacuated, although they contained numerous articles of clothing, toilet things, letters, photographs of girls, families, and friends, lying about anywhere.
Here we halted, and waited, a few seconds; then there was a shriek, and a very loud bang, as the shrapnel burst just over, coming preciously near some of us. We were told to take cover in these empty holes, and in less time than you can think we were in them, but not before at least two more shells had burst over us. About six or eight shells in all burst overhead doing no damage, as the slopes of the hill were too steep for the enemy to get his shells to burst exactly on the hillside. Then we all got picks, and dug ourselves in deeper, and sat there listening to the shells bursting overhead, and dropping in the sea beyond. We then had tea in our holes, and afterwards got ready to turn in.
Two battalions of infantry passed going up to the trenches in the evening. They were not so cheerful as the men we had passed on our way up, who had given us a welcome, and cheered us with witty remarks about how things were going. Number Two Company came on shore near us about ten o’clock. That night the battleships bombarded a fort. The flash seemed to light up everything, and the shells bursting sent up showers of red sparks, as good as any fireworks.
At last we turned into our holes, and went to sleep, listening to the whizzing and whining of stray bullets passing over us. I was awakened by a terrific shriek, and a terrific bang. I sat up, and another shell went over, and burst just beyond our holes. Then there was a terrific bombardment with shrieking and banging until about thirty shells had burst over us, with the result that one man had his rifle butt broken. I went to sleep again after that (at which I was rather surprised), and in place of reveille we were awakened by a terrific cannonading by HMS… (censored) which was near.
In the morning, our section built a small stone jetty… (censored), and were very near some shrapnel fire, while the remainder of our Company, with Number Two Company, started on a road up the steep hills. Both Companies worked on the road in the afternoon, and intended to get in to tea. An officer of another corps said, “It can’t be done by to-night in time.” Our Colonel said, “Leave it to my men.” At five, a message was sent to our holes to keep tea until seven. At seven, a party went down to fetch tea up the hill, and the road was quite done by half-past eight. Forty of our men went down, and fetched an eighteen-pounder field gun, and lugged it up. The artillery men saw their gun going, and came and helped, so the gun came up at the double, and at ten o’clock it was firing away. Before eleven, three guns were up. We were congratulated all round.
I hope that you find this interesting!
Thanks for the extra information you have managed to gather about Robert - such a shame he died so young without getting to know his son.
Dave Barrett