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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: mahatmacoat on Monday 22 June 09 13:28 BST (UK)
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Hi all,
can anyone out there help me trace my relatives???
searching for any relatives (or any info) on the family of George Sinclair and
Mary Heron, emmigrated to NZ in 1857 from Fife Scotland with their children-
Alexander b 1834
mary b 1836 who i believe married John Wallace around 1861 in Dunedin.
Ages b 1838
John b 1833
all of them b Fife Scotland
parents George and mary burried in Dunedin cemetry, George died 1875 and was a Grocer, he was my GGGgrandfather.
can anyone shed any light on this so far fruitless search??????, i'm trying to
find any relatives that may still be around in Dunedin!.
many thanks to all, Robert (in England)
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Hi Robert
I'm not sure how we can help you with this ?
If George SINCLAIR is your GGGgrandfather (presume you mean 3 x g/gf ?) ... then one of his children (which you've named here), is your great-great-grandparent ... and that being the case, then you would already have some information on that "child" ???
You've given the name of Mary SINCLAIR (b. 1836) and then said ... "I believe married John WALLACE in 1861". (Is there some doubt about this ? This marriage IS recorded on the NZ Marriage index ).
Is MARY your connection ??
If so, what further information do you have (which could be helpful in tracing descendants) ??
Lu
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Hi again
The George SINCLAIR you refer to as having died in 1875, is buried at the Northern Cemetery, Dunedin, Block 41 - Plot 10 :
Buried in same plot :
Margery SINCLAIR - died 1877 aged 70
EDITED to add - NZ Death index records the age of Margery SINCLAIR as being 76 years (born circa 1801) ... is this George's wife, who you've named as "Mary" ??
John WALLACE - d. 1897 ... age at death not recorded.
Hellen WALLACE - d. 1896 aged 26 years
Emma Rosina WALLACE - d. 1892 aged 21 years.
You can view this cemetery record at >>
http://www.dunedin.govt.nz/facilities/cemeteries/cemeteries_search
Lu
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Hi Lu,
thanks so much for your reply, my 3xG/GF George sinclair married twice
in Scotland, i decend from his first marriage to mary Temple, he married her in 1826 then, after having 3 children with mary temple, he married mary Heron in
1833 in Fife Scotland.
He had the children i have already mentioned with mary Heron and in 1857 he
emmigrated with them to Dunedin.
I noticed what you said about George's wife's name, Margery???, wonder if he
had married yet again? as i know for sure that the George sinclair burried in plot 41 is definately my George.
I have been searching for about 8 years for George's death certificate in Scotland and iv'e only just discovered that he emmigrated and married again,
this has been very challenging so any help you can give me would be much appreciated.
I really appreciate you helping me with this Lu!.
kind regards Robert.
P.S I only knew about mary marrying John Wallace because of the Dunedin cemetry website, i then found an old newspaper website for Dunedin and this mentioned the marriage and that my George was indeed mary's father!.
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Hi Robert
Mmmm ... all a bit a of mystery this SINCLAIR family. :D
I know you are saying that the George who died at Dunedin in 1875, is "definately" your 3xg/f, BUT ... having read through your other threads on this subject, I still have some reservations. ??? However, we can still have a look at NZ records, and see if we can sort some of this out.
Firstly, a New Zealand death certificate of 1875, will not unfortunately give you sufficient information to prove that this is your George. [Recorded in 1875 ... Name, age, when/where died, occupation, cause of death, name/address of informant, date death registered :]
Archives New Zealand (Dunedin office), hold a probate record ... "SINCLAIR - George - Dunedin - grocer - 1875" ... but this too may not be terribly helpful ?
Margery SINCLAIR : There appears to be an error on the Dunedin cemeteries database, not in the christian name, but in the stated "age at death" ? I checked the NZ online death index, and her name is spelled as "Margery", but (death) age is given as "76 years" (rather than "70" on cem. record).
There is no record that I can see, of a George SINCLAIR having married a "Margery" in New Zealand.
continued next post >>
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--- SINCLAIR - continued ...
I haven't managed to find a record of the arrival of the SINCLAIR family in NZ (in 1857 or any other time). We also need to be wary of what is recorded under "years in NZ", quite often this is only a bit of guesswork by an informant to a death. Sometimes accurate, but very often not. There is the possibility too that members of the family may have travelled separately ( i.e. at different times).
To assist with the search here, do you have the following ?
* Baptism / birth records for the children of George and Mary Heron ?
* Do these four children have additional christian names ?
* The marriage record for George to Mary HERON - 1833 ?
Lu
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Hi Lu, i can't tell you how much i appreciate all of your help with this!.
To answer your questions, yes i have a record of the George and mary Heron's marriage in 1833,
it's an OPR so it holds very little info apart from George being a Grocer.
I have the record of the ship sailing from London in 1857 and arriving in NZ Dunedin with George
his wife and all the children with them, so i know for sure that George (who married mary Heron)
definately went to NZ in 1857.
I know of no Middle names for any of their children though.
I know what you mean about the name Margery though, confusing isn't it! surely he didn't marry again!!, or did he??.
I found a newspaper article in 1861 mentioning that George's daughter had married John Wallace,
this also confirmed that George was from the same place in Fife Scotland and that he was a Grocer,
so wer'e not inconsistant.
The LDS family search also has the records of George and mary's children, all b in Fife,
i have them on the 1841 and 1851 census, after this, they all dissapear.
So as you can see Lu, it all looks like were on the right path.
My E-mail is (*) if you would like any of the original documents?.
thanks again Lu for everything as i know how confusing this one is!!.
kindest regards Robert.
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
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Hi LU, i thought the record of the ship might be useful!, also the name May is used alot in Scotland for mary!
George Canning
Otago Witness – Saturday December 5, 1857 page 4
Shipping News
Arrived, November 28, George Canning, 411 tons, barque, Captain Sims, from London to Port Chalmers. Sailed on 23rd August. Made a good passage of 97 days, port to port. She was the first in a series despatched by the emigration agent, James Adam, who had been sent home from Otago. 131 Passengers:
Buskin Mary A and 2 children
Blair Robert age 46 b. Ayrshire 1810. Agnes Dick (wife), Robert, Agnes, Margaret, Janet and John (Robert farmed East Taieri Dunedin)
Borrow Mr and Mrs T and 3 children
Butlar John Geo.
Calder C
Cahill Thomas
Carless John, Patience, Patience, Emily, Hannah, William, John, and Frederick
Cassells Thomas, Janet, Margaret, Mary and Caroline
Cavanagh John and Anna
Chittock Mr Fred and Mrs
Chittock George and Emily and 4 children
Clarke Mr
Cockrill Richard
Dunkley Dennis
Fairmaid Mr
Finlay Helen, Marion, Jean, and James
Ford Mr J
Ford William
France Mr and Mrs C and 3 children
France Mr and Mrs J and child
Gough Mr and Mrs R
Hammond Charles, Sarah, Dinah, Martha, Richard Lates and Thomas Herbert Hammond
Hepburn Mr and Mrs A
Hepburn W
Jago John, Mary Ann, Maria, John, Mary Ann, Charles, Julia, Sydney and Alfred
Leckie Stewart, Agnes, Stewart, Archibald, John, Elizabeth, Agnes, Helen, and James William
Lewis Mr
McKenzie Mr
McCree J
McVey Joseph
Mathie Alexander, Priscilla, Agnes, Helen, Emy, Catherine, Alexander
Morris Aaron
Morris William, Ann, Sarah Maria, Thomas, Elizabeth, and William
Nairne Mr
Paterson D
Paterson James
Perry Edward, Elizabeth, Edward Jas., and Wm
Prime H.G.
Russell Mr
Senior J
Shand Mr and Mrs, Misses (2) and 3 children
Sinclair George, May, Alexander, May, Agnes and John
Small Mr
Smith Miss
Stewart Miss
Stone F
Tilly Chas. and Barbara
Wain John, Mary Margaret, Frederick, Margaret Elizabeth
Wain Ann Sophia, Joseph William, and Suhannah
Watson Mr
The foregoing list includes 2 tailors, 2 storekeepers, 1 servant, 9 farmers, 1 clerk, 1 butcher, 1 carpenter, 20 labourers, 1 engineer, 3 shepherds, 1 dairymaid.
Per George Canning, from London: 2 cases books
1 ditto apparel
20 ditto glass
100 cases Geneva
20 bundles square iron
20 do. hoop iron
51 camp ovens
51 lids for ditto
1 coil rope
1 case seed
1 box books
2 casks whiskey
1 case clothing
42 tons coal
6 hhds. rum 83 cases soap
20 kegs arsenic
4 bars iron
4 bundles ditto
6 ploughs
2 wheels
1 axle
3 parcels
112 casks
209 cases
30 barrels
6 trunks
10 bales
30 kegs
4 boxes
Saturday 26 Dec., 1857 Otago Witness
Sailed Dec. 18, George Canning, 411 tons, Sim, for Callao, in ballast, with one passenger.
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Hello again Robert
You did really well finding that shipping record ! :)
(I'd been relying on a "surname" search to find it).
Have to repeat, ... (and I may be wrong), but I still don't think that this George in NZ, is the right one. ??
My reasons :
* I think it's rather odd, that a man would have two sons named "Alexander", especially as the Alexander of the first marriage to Mary TEMPLE, was still alive (died 1885 ) ?
* You say "your George" was from North Leith (Midlothian).
(The 1861 (NZ) marriage notice for Mary SINCLAIR to John WALLACE, states that her father was from Wemyss (Fife) ??)
* Even though the sons of the Sinclair/Temple marriage were born in Leslie (Fife), ... there are no 1841 census records for that location which can confirm the familys' presence there.
* The "George SINCLAIR" (of a roughly similar age) - 1841 at Abbotshall and 1851 at Wemyss, might perhaps give the impression that this could be "your George" and that he may have re-married. But, in the absence of death record for first wife Mary (Temple), (AND the presence of yet "another" son named Alexander), it is wise not to automatically assume this is the same "George" that you are seeking. (I note also on your Fife thread, that somebody had posted a reference to an 1857 marriage for a son of Mary (Temple), which seemed to indicate she was still alive at that date ??)
But having said all that, I'm still happy to provide you with any information I can find, for the "George SINCLAIR and family" who came to New Zealand. By doing so, it may be possible to discover "new clues" and thus solve the puzzle. :)
I'll post some further info, shortly.
Lu
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--- adding links to your Fife board, threads :
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,345803.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,345836.0.html
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Margery SINCLAIR (died 1877 - Dunedin, NZ - born circa 1801)
It does seem most likely that the "Margery SINCLAIR" buried with George SINCLAIR, is his wife - known otherwise as "May". ("May" is usually a diminutive of the names Mary or Margaret ... but possibly is also a "pet name" for Margery / Marjorie ?)
There is this (extracted) record on the IGI (the only one) ... which would seem to be a very good match for Margery (May / Mary HERON) :
Marjorie HERRON
Born : 23 December 1800 Baptised : 28 December 1800
Kinglassie, Fife
Father : John HERRON
[Kinglassie - approx. 2.2 miles from Leslie ("as the crow flies") ... and close also to Wemyss]
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... this IGI (extracted) record (as mentioned on the Fife thread) ... seems could be the George SINCLAIR - died 1875 at Dunedin, NZ, aged 75 years ?? :
George SINCLAIR
Born : 1 January 1800 - Leslie, Fife
Father: Alexander SINCLAIR
Mother: Agness (Agnes ?) DAVIDSON
And if naming patterns have been observed, then this "George", and the "Marjorie HERRON" daughter of a "John HERRON", are quite probably the parents of
Alexander / Mary / Agnes / John *
who arrived in NZ in 1857 ?
[* John : A "John Heron SINCLAIR" death record has been found in NZ ... will add this in a following post. ]
Lu
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Burial at Northern Cemetery, Dunedin, NZ :
Block 38 Plot 2
[Note: The (online) cemetery record, gives the name as "John Haron SINCLAIR" ... however the death index has the second name spelt as "HERON" ]
John Heron SINCLAIR - died July 1897 - 51 years (bc 1846)
Have further information for John and family, to follow (but will let you "take in" all the previous info, firstly. :D
Lu
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Hi LU, GOODNESS ME YOUV'E BEEN BUSY!!, ido really appreciate it!.
Now, to put your mind at rest regarding George Sinclair, i was the same as you,
constantly wondering if i had the right George, this went on for many years because (as you have
already stated) there are no records available for Leslie or any death records for George and Mary
Temple, this fruitless search went on for years until just recently i visited Kirkcaldy Library.
My old posts which you have read say that i believed George was b North Leith as this is where
Mary Temple hailed from, i no longer believe that George was born there, heres why.
The Library held very old books an records for Leslie Fife, one old book i found was a trade index for
all the merchants in Leslie, the book was compiled by the secretary of the Fife Family History society
his name is Andrew Campbell, this is word for word what the book said----------
SINCLAIR, GEORGE; grocer, circa 1828-43; was a merchant in Leith in 1826 when, by his marriage to
his first wife, Mary Temple, daughter of George Temple ship builder Leith, he had a son, Alexander
Temple Sinclair b june 27 1826; to Leslie by 1828, a second son Charles Hope Sinclair was born
February 13 1828. On his second marriage to Mary Heron he had the following children--
1 alexander b july 16 1834, 2 Mary b feb 26 1836, 3Agnes b oct 20 1838, 4 John b oct 21 1843.
From this moment on Lu, i have no dout that i am indeed following the correct path, the librarian assured me that mr Cambell would have been very accurate in his research and is a highly respected
person.
Having found no death for George anywhere i must assume this is because he emmigrated.
let me know what you think Lu!, will add to this later.
kindest regards Robert.
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Hi Robert
Well ... Mr Campbell's notes are interesting (... although a historian "worth his salt", might have added / or searched for, the death of the first wife) ? I still stand by my earlier comments ... but of course it is unfortunate that no further clues about this George SINCLAIR can be obtained from his NZ death record.
Have you ever checked out where the name "Hope" (as in Charles Hope SINCLAIR), comes from ? Perhaps there's a clue in that name ?
Anyway, I'll add a bit more information from New Zealand records. Not sure though that this will lead to finding descendants at this end - it looks like a good number of these Sinclair and Wallace families, did not marry. I haven't managed either to find records for Alexander (2) SINCLAIR or his sister Agnes.
Lu
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Hello,
Much of this discussion back in 2009 was focused on the question of George Sinclair's marital history. I have gone through the records time and again and have been in touch with the descendants of a George Sinclair who lived in Leith at one time and married Mary Temple in Edinburgh in 1826. 15 years on I'm still not entirely convinced that George Sinclair who married May Heron (spellings vary in the records) in Leslie in 1833 was the same man. The following notes from my database may be of interest to the participants in the 2009 discussion if they are still interested:
"The marriage record for George and Margery Herron is actually an entry in the Leslie Parish Money Register which reads: "Sep 1 To Proclamation Money, George Sinclair and Mary Herron."
"There is considerable doubt as to whether or not George had a first marriage to Mary Temple. Some researchers think there were two George Sinclairs, both grocers, in Leslie at the same time. There is no certainty, as shown in various records held by the author (me), that the George Sinclair who came to NZ in 1857 was ever married to Mary Temple. Nevertheless, census records for Scotland show that Mary Temple was still alive in 1851 living with her 3 sons, but her George was not in the household. The marriage dates for Mary Temple and Margery Heron and the births of their children are entirely compatible with a possible conclusion that George and Mary may have parted before he married Margery."
Whatever the case, George and May / Margery and children were accompanied on the George Canning by his 1st cousin Andrew Hepburn & wife (ex Leslie and Wemyss), 1st cousin once removed William Hepburn (my great grandfather) who was returning to Dunedin following a visit to Scotland, probably to accompany his ageing paternal grandfather James Paterson and crippled uncle David Paterson on the long journey to join William's parents George Hepburn and Rachel Paterson (ex Kirkcaldy) in Otago.
George Sinclair and family initially stayed with their Hepburn relations at Halfway Bush, Dunedin and then went to the Hepburn property "Brooklands" in North Otago which was run by James Paterson Hepburn, son of George and Rachel and brother of William.
In 1861 George's daughter Mary Sinclair (b.1836 in Leslie) married John Wallace. They had 6 children between 1867 and 1880. I have some BDM details of these people.
In 1864 George's daughter Agnes Sinclair (b.1838 in Leslie, bapt in Kirkcaldy) married Henry Green whose family had emigrated to Otago from Hayes, Middlesex in 1856. They had 2 children George and Henry Corbett Green. I have BDM data for this family and descendants.
In the course of all my extensive research, the NZ descendants and relations of George Sinclair and May Heron have provided no evidence that he was ever married earlier to a Mary Temple. However, this is not to say that he wasn't. He may have separated from Mary and married May. Mary was clearly still alive when he married May in 1833. Mary was apparently a solo mother with sons Alexander Temple, Charles Hope and Moncrieff in 1841 (Census). One could conjecture that George and May never mentioned his possible earlier marriage with Mary to their children.
E&OE
Don Hutton
Christchurch, New Zealand
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Hello Robert,
I hope you are still on Rootschat!
I have proved fairly conclusively that there were two George Sinclairs:
1. George Sinclair (1800 - 1875) who married Margery Heron and emigrated to NZ with their children in 1857. His parents were Alexander Sinclair* and Agnes Davidson. There are numerous descendants of their daughters Mary (m. John Wallace) and Agnes (m. Henry Green) in NZ. I'm working on the sons and other probable relations who came here at other times. This George was 1st cousin to my great great grandfather George Hepburn of Wakari, Dunedin.
2. George Sinclair (b.1805) who married Mary Temple. Their children were Alexander Temple, Charles Hope and Moncreiff Sinclair. His parents were George Sinclair* and Christian Tod. I think Mary was widowed early as she was on her own with the 3 boys in 1841 and working as a teacher. She died in Dysart in 1847.
* brothers - sons of George St. Clair (Sinclair) and Katherine (Catherine) Suttie (my 3x great grandparents).
I'll be happy to chat on if you wish.
Don Hutton
Family Historian
Christchurch, NZ.
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I wonder if this thread is still going. I was interested in the fact that Andrew Hepburn came to NZ with George Sinclair. Andrew Hepburn is a witness at the marriage of John Wallace and Mary Murray Sinclair in 1861. They named one of their children James Spencer Hepburn Wallace.
Dianne
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Hello Dianne,
The ship which brought my ggg uncle Andrew Hepburn (1801 - 1873) and 1st cousin 4 times removed George Sinclair (1800 - 1875) to Otago in 1857 was the "George Canning." Several other members of the related Hepburn and Sinclair families and spouses were also on this ship including my great grandfather William Hepburn (1834 - 1887) and my 3x great grandfather James Paterson (c1776 - 1861).
It was George's daughter Mary (1836 - 1936) who married John Wallace in Dunedin in 1861, not Mary Murray Sinclair (c.1873 - 1913) who was a single woman. James Spencer Hepburn Wallace (1877 - 1916) was the 7th of 9 children of Mary & John.
I have more information about the Sinclairs and Hepburns researched in the years since I last contributed to Rootschat. It would be easier by normal email if you're interested in more details.
Don Hutton
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Thanks for replying Don. I would be interested in your citations for this info as my father alway said his great grandmother was Mary Murray Sinclair. I’ve got her living from1839-1936.It would be good to continue by email. I’ve only just joined Rootschat so am not sure how we communicate by email as we don’t reveal that do we?
Dianne
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Hi Dreeves welcome to RootsChat.
You can contact Don by replying to the thread just as you have done so there is no need to give away email addresses. If the information concerns living folk then you can send don a PM.
Regards
Sarah