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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Glamorganshire => Topic started by: RebeccaNZ on Sunday 05 July 09 06:39 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I am trying to find the biological parents of my great grandmother Alice Maude GREGORY born 1889/1890 somewhere in Glamorgan.
In 1891 census she is living with possibly her aunt and uncle Mary (nee Powell) and Robert Gregory.
Mary and Robert Gregory are living in Graisyn, Helfa Houses, Glystaff, Glamorgan, with their nephews Robert Henry COLLINS, Albert GREGORY and niece Alice Maude POWELL (aged 2 b. Neath).
In 1901 census the family are living in Pontypridd and Alice Maude's last name has changed to GREGORY and she is listed as their daughter. Alice's birth place is listed as Pontypridd.
Mary GREGORY (nee POWELL) had three siblings Philip POWELL, Elizabeth (married a COLLINS) and half sister Amelia (married a COUSINS).
I am trying to figure out where Alice Maude came from and who her real parents are. If any one has any information about this family or might be able to offer me some advice about what to do next I would really appreciate it.
Rebecca
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Hi
Just curious. What name does Alice give on her marriage cert for her father?
Wendy
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Hi
Have you tried to look for and obtain her birth cert that matches with known location of birth and year?
I guess you have but worth asking in case you haven't ventured in that direction.
Wendy
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Her father's name on marriage cert is Robert Gregory - adopted father.
Yes, I've looked at birth certificates for her and there are a few that are possible around.
She was either born Neath or Pontypridd it says on the 1891 and 1901 census'. She was probably born Dec. 1889 but it could be 1890.
It's hard because I don't really know what I'm looking for on the birth certificates - probably someone related to the Powell family.
Were illigetimate birth's recorded back then?
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Did Alice have children?
If so, what were their names?
Jamjar
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Here's the family on the 1881 census.
Not sure how it will help, but it gives more names to work around.
Robert Albert GREGORY 32 Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales
Mary GREGORY 28 Merthyr, Glamorgan, Wales
Edward Richard EVANS Brother-In-Law 11 Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales
Maria Jane EVANS Sister-In-Law 11 Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales
Elizabeth COLLINS Sister-In-Law Married 22 Newport, Monmouth, England
Elizabeth Ann COLLINS Niece 6 Pontypridd, Glamorgan, Wales
Robert Henry COLLINS Nephew 2 Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales
Dwelling: 47 Tramroad Side
Census Place: Llantwit Vairdre, Glamorgan, Wales
Jamjar
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It only leaves her to be the daughter of Philip Powell, does it not?
Do you know who he married?
Jamjar
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Her birth cert I think:
September 1889
Alice Maud Powell Pontypridd 11a 452
Found on FreeBMD
Jamjar
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Hi,
Philip Powell married Mary Jane Vizard ... yes could be his child but he was living in Cogan and Penarth 1881 - 1891 - so if it is his child she would have been born there.
I was wondering if she was an illegitimate child to Philip ....
Amelia, Philip and Elizabeth Powell were all married early/mid 1880's - before Alice Maud was born so I don't think that she was Amelia or Elizabeth's daughter.
She was possibly an illigetimate daughter to Maria Evan's - she would have been 17/18 around 1889/1890 so perhaps she had a child young/ out of wedlock and the child went to live with Gregory's. That still doesn't explain why her last name is Powell 1891 census.
Alice had 4 children - Ruby, Alice, Blodwen and Douglas
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Is Mary Jane with Philip on the 1891 census?
Jamjar
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Is Mary Jane with Philip on the 1891 census?
Jamjar
Yep, she is. Alos they have another daughter born about 1889 too
1891
Phillip Powell abt 1856 Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales Head Cogan, Glamorgan
Mary Jane abt 1858 Penarth, Glamorgan, Wales Wife Cogan, Glamorgan
Minnie Powell abt 1879 Cogan, Glamorgan, Wales Daughter Cogan, Glamorgan
Agnes Powell abt 1881 Penarth, Glamorgan, Wales Daughter Cogan, Glamorgan
Charles Powell abt 1883 Penarth, Glamorgan, Wales Son Cogan, Glamorgan
Maria Powell abt 1889 Cogan, Glamorgan, Wales Daughter Cogan, Glamorgan
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Umm, that blows the idea that Mary Jane may have died in childbirth. :'(
Jamjar
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Umm, that blows the idea that Mary Jane may have died in childbirth. :'(
Jamjar
Yeah, I know. It's been frustrating me for ages.
As much as I would like for Philip Powell to be her father it just doesn't seem likely unless he got someone pregnant who wasn't his wife. Even if he did - he wasn't living in the same location as the suspected birth place for Alice Maud ....
I've been through all the possible candidates for parents and I really have no idea who her parents are - but I do feel that she is somehow related to the Powell family as it seems that Gregory's took in Mary's nieces and nephews.
I don't even know for certain if her "real" last name is Powell or not ....
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HI
I know Robert and Mary where together in the 1881 census but when did they marry?
Wendy
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Her birth cert I think:
September 1889
Alice Maud Powell Pontypridd 11a 452
Found on FreeBMD
Jamjar
Not sure about this one - the child who was the subject of this registration may well be the Alice M Powell b Pontypridd who in 1891 was enumerated as the 1 yr old daughter of Owen and Mary Powell in Pontypridd RD: RG12/4420/35/1.
Anna
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it looks like Robert & Mary didn't have children of their own. 1891 census, Robert H, Albert C and Alice are nephews and niece, but are sons & daughter in 1901. There's also a 10 year old Willie in 1901, but no William Gregory birth reg in Pontypridd district.
Blodwen Cousins is niece in 1901, but looks to be Gregory in 1911.
By the way, the address in 1891 is Graig yr Helfa Houses, Glyntaff
www.rootschat.com/links/06mh/
they're enumerated near the Round Houses
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HI
I know Robert and Mary where together in the 1881 census but when did they marry?
Wendy
Hi Wendy,
I never thought about that .... I just did a search for marriages for Robert Gregory between 1871 and 1881 in Glamorgan and Breconshire but got no results ... so no, after a quick search I can't find their marriage record.
I do know they weren't married 1871 -
1871: Rickard St, Glamorgan Llantwit Fardre (registration district - Pontypridd)
Edward Evans 32 Head M News? Vendor
Maria Evans 35 M House Keeper
Mary Powell 19 Dau U Merthyr, Glam
Phillip Powell 16 Son U Haulier Cardiff
Elizabeth Powell 13 Dau U Newport, Mon
Amelia Powell 10 Dau Cardiff
Edward Evans 1 Son Cardiff
Maria Evans 1 Dau Cardiff
Jane Gregory 48 Lodger Wid Glamorgan
Robert Gregory 22 Lodger U Lab Iron Works Cardiff, Glam
Henry Gregory 20 Lodger U Lab Iron Works Cardiff, Glam
Robert Bains (Burns?)30 M Pudlar Ireland
Mary Barns (Burns?) 34 M Stone, Staffordshire
Thos Davies 31 Lodger U Curaavon, Glamorgan
I assume they were married between 1871 and 1881 .....
osprey - yes, Robert and Mary could not have children .... My great-grandmother told her children that all her siblings were adopted. Blodwen Cousins is later Blodwen Gregory 1911 census ....
Thankyou for the link too .... :)
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Hi
this family certainly is a muddled one, with all the surnames inter-locking for whatever the reason.
I asked about the marriage incase Mary Rosina Gregory nee Powell herself did indeed have a child out of wedlock who then went on to have Alice out of wedlock - therefore making Alice Maude infact the grandaughter of Mary Rosina Gregory nee Powell.
Wendy
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Hi
this family certainly is a muddled one, with all the surnames inter-locking for whatever the reason.
I asked about the marriage incase Mary Rosina Gregory nee Powell herself did indeed have a child out of wedlock who then went on to have Alice out of wedlock - therefore making Alice Maude infact the grandaughter of Mary Rosina Gregory nee Powell.
Wendy
Wow, that is a really good point ... :)
I never thought about that. It depends which one of them couldn't have children ...
Now, just to find a marriage record for Robert and Mary .... Yes, this family is soooo muddled.
Mary, Philip and Elizabeth are Maria Evan's step children ... Amelia Powell her only child to another Philip Powell. Maria must have remarried Edwards Evans sometime late 1860's.
The strangest thing is that someone else researching the same Powell family has ordered a few birth certificates for Elizabeth and Philip but none of them are the correct certificates .... We can't find any record for Philip Powell (father of Mary, Philip, Eliz and Amelia) anywhere!!
They are a really hard family to trace
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1861 Severn(?) Rd, Canton, Cardiff RG9/4038 folio 52 pg 53
Philip Powell head mar 39 excavator b. Glos, Woolaston
Maria wife 25 b. Somerset, Wilton (?)
Mary dau 9 b. Merthyr
Philip son 5 b. Cardiff
Eliza dau 3 b. Mon, Newport
Amelia dau 2 months b. Glam, Canton
possible marriage reg
Philip Powell june qtr 1861 Cardiff vol 11a pg 290 with Maria Pugsley on the same page
In 1851, there's a Maria Pugsley of the right age born Somerset whose father is a railway lab in Resolven HO107/2463 folio 308 pg
possible birth regs
Amelia Powell june qtr 1861 Cardiff vol 11a pg 247
Eliza Powell june qtr 1858 Newport M vol 11a pg 173
can't see a death reg for Philip or a remarriage for Maria
::)
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Ouch! My head is spinning with this (fascinating!) family!
Have I got this right......
Maria (poss Pugsley) marries Phillip Powell by 1861.
Phillip already has children Mary, Philip and Eliza. Philip and Maria have Amelia.
Philip dies (?) by 1871 because Maria is with Edward Evans.
Living with Maria and Edward are Maria's step children, daughter from first marriage and twins (?) from second marriage.
Also living with Maria and Edward is a set of lodgers, one of whom marries one of Maria's step children.
Robert and Mary can't have children, but adopt sundry nieces and nephews.
Wow. :D
Robert and his brother (?) were in the workhouse as children. I wonder if his experiences there prompted him to adopt children?
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Yup, that's about it!
I've found some baptisms that may confirm in part, all IGI batch 056751 St John's canton
Amelia Rosina Powell bp 7/6/1874 in Canton dau of Philip & Mary? No other Amelia Powell registered around this time
twins
Edward Richard & Maria Jane Evans bp 12/10/1869 children of Edward & Maria
so birth regs
Edward Richard Evans & Maria Jane dec qtr 1869 Cardiff vol 11a pg 222
the mother's former names on these may be interesting
In 1901 Edward is in Gelligaer RG13/5022 folio 86 pg 4 with family and a nephew Charles Powell 19 born Penarth. Son of Philip junior?
1881 the twins are with the Gregorys and there are possible death regs for Maria & Edward
Maria Evans 34 march qtr 1874 Pontypridd vol 11a pg 262
Edward Evans 34 june qtr 1872 Pontypridd vol 11a pg 193
or Edward Evans 36 dec qtr 1875 Pontypridd vol 11a pg 206
I'm fairly sure about the Maria Pugsley as her birth place looks to be Wootton Courtenay or variant in census entries and she's in Wootton Courtenay in 1841.
As Philip senior was a navvy, he may have been killed at work, but there should be a registration somewhere. There are Powells in Woolaston, Glos but can't see a baptism for Philip
http://www.forest-of-dean.net/
::)
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It would be interesting to find Philip senior on 1851, but at the moment he seems to be elusive. There is a Philip Powell on 1841 in Lydney, but nothing conclusive.
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I thought that perhaps [Rose] Amelia had died which is why Robert and Mary had adopted Blodwen, but in 1891:
28 Morgan St, Llanwonno
Charles E Cousins H Mar 29 Coal miner bn Llanwonno
Rose A Cousins W Mar 29 bn Cardiff
Edwin Cousins son 5 bn Llanwonno
James H Cousins son 3 bn Llanwonno
Gladys Cousins dau 7 mnths bn Llanwonno
Harriett Powell sister in law single 26 bn Cardiff
Phillip Powell nephew 2mnths bn Llanwonno
John Brigstoke boarder single 51 compositor bn Carmarthenshire
RG12; Piece: 4414; Folio 49; Page 15
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Hmmmmm, have a look at this census entry RG10; Piece: 5382; Folio: 84; Page: 12 for Harriet Powell Blunt. Seems to be with her aunt, Elizabeth Mason bn Whitton Courtney
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I think I may have found another sister!
marriage reg
Charles Edwin Cousins sept qtr 1884 Pontypridd vol 11a pg 627 with Rosanna Amelia Powell on the same page
(names other way round from baptism)
1891 28 Morgan St, Llanwonno RG12/4414 folio 49 pg 15
Charles E Cousins head mar 29 coal miner b. Llanwonno
Rose A wife 29 b. Cardiff
Edwin son 5 b. Llanwonno
James H son 3 b. Llanwonno
Gladys dau 7 months b. Llanwonno
Harriett Powell sister-in-law single 26 b. Cardiff
Philip Powell nephew son 2 months b. Llanwonno
John Brigstock boarder single 51 compositor b. Carmarthen
birth reg
Philip Powell march 1891 Pontypridd vol 11a pg 498a
So she's a candidate for mother of Alice Maude, but where was she earlier?
birth reg
Harriett Powell march qtr 1864 Cardiff vol 11a pg 248
another 2 baptisms in IGI batch C056751
Harriett bp 24/1/1864 dau of Philip & Maria
Charles Mason bp 22/4/1866 son of Philip & Maria
???
sorry posts crossed, took me ages to type while watching tennis!
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Could Harriet be missing Powell sibling? In 1891 she has a child out of wedlock. Perhaps she previously had Alice?
Edited to add: ;D Osprey ! Great minds
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Charles Mason mar Elizabeth Pugsley Jun qtr 1860 Cardiff 11a 330
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It's beginning to look that way!
can't see a birth reg for other son, but there is this death reg
Charles Mason Powell 1 sept qtr 1867 vol 11a pg 117
might be interesting to see who registered it.
extra children are cutting down the possible period for death/disappearance of Philip. As baptism has his name, does that mean that he was there??
::)
just spotted your new post, there are possible death regs for Mary & George Pugsley, parents of Maria, registered cardiff 1860 & 1862 from memory.
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Looks like Amelia has died by 1901, and Charles has remarried to May from Bath RG13; Piece: 5011; Folio: 43; Page: 32
Amelia died dec qtr 1895 Pontypridd 11a 247
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1881 Harriet Powell servant to a Davies household in Glyntaff RG11/5293 folio 91 pg 20
What about this death reg?
Philip Powell sept qtr 1865 Brecknock vol 11b pg 75
:-\
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Could be Osprey. Problem is if Philip died whilst working away - he really could be anywhere then. :-\
Why on the 1871 census would Harriet be enumerated as having the surname Blunt? And I wonder if a birth reg for Alice Maud Blunt Dec qtr 1888 Cardiff 11a 337 could be the elusive Alice?
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no idea why she's enumerated as Blunt, unless Philip wasn't her father?
there's a 2 yr old Alice M Blunt in Cardiff in 1891 with parents Israel & Ellen RG12/4395 folio 36 pg 63.
Harriet is eluding me in 1901. There are a few possible marriages and I'm stuck on the first one I tried from june qtr 1898. I matched one of the couples, Thomas Roberts & Sophia Bramble, but can't find the Thomas Rossiter/Harriet Powell pairing.
I suspect Philip would be working for one of the South Wales railway companies and the lines around Brecon were being built at that time.
http://www.cpat.org.uk/projects/longer/histland/usk/mutran.htm
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Oh well, back to the drawing board! ::)
I couldn't find Harriet either, nor could I find a Philip that fitted. There is a death of Philip SIdney Powell in 1892, but I don't think this is our Philip
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oh for goodness sake!
Harriett Powell june qtr 1893 Pontypridd vol 11a pg 617 with Edward Phillips on the same page
1901 62 Ynysyngharad St, Trallwn, Pontypridd RG13/4998 folio 33 pg 16
Edward Phillips head mar 35 brake & cab driver b. Pontypridd
Harriett wife 35 b. Cardiff
Gwendoline dau 5 b. Pontypridd
other side of the road to 63 where the Gregory family are! Aaargh!
Wonder if baby Philip in 1891 has become 10 year old Willie in 1901?
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;D
I suppose Philip Phillips would have been a bit much! So change to Willie.........
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Hi thanks for all your help!
Spidermonkey - yes, Maria Pugsley married Phillip Powell in 1861. Philip had 3 children - Mary, Philip and Elizabeth who became Maria's step children. Maria and Philip had Amelia then she re-married and had twins to Edward Evans.
osprey - we can't seem to find very much on Philip Powell snr anywhere. We can't seem to locate death cert, baptism or any record of him in 1851 or 1841 census. We also don't know who his 1st wife was either.
Wow - I never knew that Philip and Maria might have had more children after 1861 - mostly because they are not living with the family 1871 census ... so I assumed Amelia was their only child together.
Well done osprey and Spidermonkey for finding that! I don't think that I would have ever found that out myself.
I believe in 1861 census Philip is working as an Excavator - so perhaps that family stayed in the same area for a few years.
If Harriet and Charles were born 1864 and 1866 then Philip must've died sometime between 1866 and 1870.
It does seem that Harriet would be the most likely candidate to be Alice Maud's mother.
I knew that Elizabeth, Amelia and Philip couldn't really be her parents because certain things didn't fit .... but I knew that she was connected to the family in someway ... so it makes alot more sense now especially if Harriet had another illigetimate child, and the location makes more sense too.
Wow, can't believe that the Harriet was living across the road from the Gregory's 1901!!
She must have given Philip to them too ... or else where did he go?
Thankyou all heaps,
Rebecca
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Do you have Philip & Amelia's marriage cert? It should give details of his father and something more to work on.
No sign of a remarriage for Maria - it may just be a change of name. ::)
By the very nature of Philip's employment, he will have moved around. The railways were growing rapidly at this time and there were plenty of lines built in South Wales, many bringing coal to the ports.
He only needed to be around for the conception of Charles Mason, so death any time after 9 months before Charles' birth. Getting the death cert for Charles would give you informant.
Possible first marriages for Philip in Abergavenny in 1850, Brecknock in 1851 and Monmouth in 1853.
It's certainly possible that some of the children weren't registered - not compulsory for parents until mid 1870s. Doesn't explain why we can't spot a registration for Alice Maud.
Time for some certs to get your research further!
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Do you have Philip & Amelia's marriage cert? It should give details of his father and something more to work on.
No sign of a remarriage for Maria - it may just be a change of name. ::)
By the very nature of Philip's employment, he will have moved around. The railways were growing rapidly at this time and there were plenty of lines built in South Wales, many bringing coal to the ports.
He only needed to be around for the conception of Charles Mason, so death any time after 9 months before Charles' birth. Getting the death cert for Charles would give you informant.
Possible first marriages for Philip in Abergavenny in 1850, Brecknock in 1851 and Monmouth in 1853.
It's certainly possible that some of the children weren't registered - not compulsory for parents until mid 1870s. Doesn't explain why we can't spot a registration for Alice Maud.
Time for some certs to get your research further!
Oh, that's interesting that birth registration wasn't compulsory until mid 1870's .... the older ones possibly weren't registered - they also aren't on IGI either.
Philip's father was another Philip Powell, but there still aren't any baptism's in Woolaston or anywhere nearby for him circa 1822.
Yes, now I have a better idea of who Alice's mother is it will be easier to separate her from the other Alice Maud Powell's and it seems Pontypridd probably is most likely as place of birth after all :)
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I also found a birth cert. for an Alice Maud Collinns born March 1889, Neath.
Maybe she is Elizabeth's daughter .... and on the census her last name is Powell?
Neath - fits with her place of birth in 1891 census.
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I'm not having any luck finding a Philip Powell in Woolaston on the 1841 census, but there is a burial for a Philip aged 52 in 1843 on the Forest of Dean site.
http://www.forest-of-dean.net/
It might be worth a query on their board. It could be that his family were non-conformist, so he would not have been baptised in the parish church. There was a Bible Christian Chapel, but I don't know the dates. And plenty of other chapels around, and not all non-conformists practice infant baptism.
Up to about 1874 (from memory), the onus of registering a birth was on the registrar, not the parents. Having said that, have you tried this reg
Rosina Powell march qtr 1851 Merthyr Tydfil vol 26 pg 505
given Mary's middle name and Amelia swapped her names around?
Really wouldn't like to comment on the registration for Alice Maud - there's loads of them. Must have been the 'in' name round them. And with this family, anything seems possible.
:D
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Hi
What a journey this search is taking us on. I found this person a Phillip Heops bn circa 1824 Wotton Under Edge Glouc ' living in Lower Merthyr Glaorgan
this is the Ref - HO107; Piece: 2458; Folio: 490; Page: 30
Can someone else take a look as I keep coming back to this one thinking (hoping) that it might be our Philip having been mistrancribed due to the loopy writing.
Only thing is I cant find the above same person earlier or later.
Wendy
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Hi
What a journey this search is taking us on. I found this person a Phillip Heops bn circa 1824 Wotton Under Edge Glouc ' living in Lower Merthyr Glaorgan
this is the Ref - HO107; Piece: 2458; Folio: 490; Page: 30
Can someone else take a look as I keep coming back to this one thinking (hoping) that it might be our Philip having been mistrancribed due to the loopy writing.
Only thing is I cant find the above same person earlier or later.
Wendy
I found Philip Heops on 1851 census ... as a lodger. I can't read what his occupation is though - it looks like Pedlar or Pudlar??
I had a look on the Forest of Dean website and there doesn't seem to be any baptism entry for Philip Heops beween 1820 - 1830 and like you said he doesn't seem to be in any other census'.
It could be him because I have searched and searched for Philip Powell b. 1822, Wotton Under Edge on the census' and he is just not there...
Rebecca :)
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Wootton under Edge isn't in the Forest of Dean, so baptism not likely to be on the site.
Occupation is pudler - part of the iron making process, so probably worked in one of the many iron works in Merthyr
http://www.sirhowy.com/puddler.html
Sorry, wrong job and not near Woolaston, compare the maps
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/GLS/WottonunderEdge/index.html
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/GLS/Woolaston/index.html
:-\
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Wootton under Edge isn't in the Forest of Dean, so baptism not likely to be on the site.
Occupation is pudler - part of the iron making process, so probably worked in one of the many iron works in Merthyr
http://www.sirhowy.com/puddler.html
Sorry, wrong job and not near Woolaston, compare the maps
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/GLS/WottonunderEdge/index.html
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/GLS/Woolaston/index.html
:-\
So, I guess it's not him then.
Sorry, got WUE and Woolaston mixed up in my mind - they sound kind of the same ....
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Hi Rebecca,
I've just read apost about your family on the Forest of Dean site. Did you post it or was it another researcher? Good to see you've had a breakthrough!
Possible explanation for the late registration of Amelia Powell, probably not registered until after her parents married so they fibbed slightly about her date of birth to make her seem legitimate?
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Hi Osprey,
No that wasn't my post on the Forest of Dean website - it was the other person researching Philip Powell.
We think that Philip Powell was actually Philip Blunt born 1822, Hewelsfield (which is not far from Woolaston) to unamarried mother Ann Blunt. Philip's brother Christopher Blunt spent about 20 years living in Woolaston too.
Following on from Harriett having the additional surname Blunt in one census we tried looking for a Philip Blunt and found one which has alot of similarities to Philip Powell. It would explain why we can't find a baptism record and why there is no trace of the same Philip Powell in 1851 or 41 census.
In 1851 he is a railway labourer and married to a Mary Ann Blunt - but I can't find a marriage reg for that marriage. There is a Mary and Philip Blunt to match the dates and places that Mary and Philip Powell would have been born but not an Elizabeth so we think that Philip might have changed his name sometime in the late 1850's.
We ordered Charles Mason Powell's death certificate and Philip Powell had died before Charles in 1867 so that narrows the date of his death down.
At the moment we are trying to find a reason for Philip to have changed his name. It was obviously a well kept secret though because if it wasn't for Harriett Powell having Blunt added onto her name in one census then I don't think that we would have ever made the connection!
Thanks to everyone for helping to find Harriett Powell because if we didn't find her in 1871 census then we wouldn't have found a connection between Philip Powell and Philip Blunt.
Rebecca :)
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I just thought that I would add -
This afternoon I searched the last name Blunt on the Gloucester Genealogical Archives Database ( http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/genealogy/Search.aspx ) and found ......
Philip Blunt from Hewelsfield in Gaol in 1842!!!
Perhaps that's the reason he changed his name. I'm not sure what for or for how long he was in there .... but it answers some questions.
It looks his brother Christopher was a non-conformist too.
It's very interesting ....
Rebecca
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It certainly looks to be coming together. And helps explain the addition of Blunt to Harriett's name as that didn't seem to make much sense.
It may be worth asking on the Gloucestershire board about Philip's time in gaol. There's at least one person who goes to the archives regularly so may be able to look up for you.
:D
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well, I've just found a reference to the case in 1842 and Phillip Blunt was sentenced to 7 years transportation for stealing bread & wheat in Hewelsfield. So is it the same man? Unfortunately, there's no age given for him as there is for some of the other people convicted. There's an Alexander Blunt named in the list of people acquitted at the end of the report, but no way of knowing if it's for the same offence.
:-\
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well, I've just found a reference to the case in 1842 and Phillip Blunt was sentenced to 7 years transportation for stealing bread & wheat in Hewelsfield. So is it the same man? Unfortunately, there's no age given for him as there is for some of the other people convicted. There's an Alexander Blunt named in the list of people acquitted at the end of the report, but no way of knowing if it's for the same offence.
:-\
Thanks heaps for that Osprey.
That's a bit sad 7 years for stealing bread and wheat ... :( Do you know what Transportation was though? Does it mean he had to go and work in another country like Australia .... ???
I think that it must have been the same Philip Blunt - it would explain why he didn't marry until about 1850 when he was 29. I have only found one Philip Blunt born in Hewelsfield so far ...
I did notice that there are a few other Blunt's connected with the Gaol in Hewelsfield in 1842.
Can I ask where you found that reference?
Rebecca :)
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It was on the Gale database of newspapers - think the actual paper was the Bristol Mercury. Transportation would have meant Australia at that time, and although some people did return, I don't think it was very common. Perhaps the sentence was reduced. A look-up at the record office might settle it.
I had a look at the baptisms on the Forest of Dean site again, and I think Alexander is a cousin, the son of Ann's brother Edward.
:-\
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HI
Fascinating! Not sure if this is the same family of Blunt but on Ancestry's latest database I found that on trial date of 1st March 1842 in Glouc'
Edward Blunt age 51 having being tried for larceny Alexander Blunt age 31 "" ""
both were found not guilty
And then to match for what you have for Philip Blunt same date and also for larceny but he was as you also found was found guilty and was noted for transportation 7 years.
Wendy
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It was on the Gale database of newspapers - think the actual paper was the Bristol Mercury. Transportation would have meant Australia at that time, and although some people did return, I don't think it was very common. Perhaps the sentence was reduced. A look-up at the record office might settle it.
I had a look at the baptisms on the Forest of Dean site again, and I think Alexander is a cousin, the son of Ann's brother Edward.
:-\
It is fascinating ... and frustrating at the same time.
If Philip Blunt is not Philip Powell then I have no idea who Philip Powell really is :o
I don't think that it is very likely for Philip Blunt to have returned to the UK after being sent to Australia.
Do any of you know of where I find transportation records - of people leaving to go to Australia and the people who returned?
If Philip Blunt was transported and did not return then that will rule him out as being Philip Powell and then I will be back to square one .... :'(
Rebecca :)
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HI
Fascinating! Not sure if this is the same family of Blunt but on Ancestry's latest database I found that on trial date of 1st March 1842 in Glouc'
Edward Blunt age 51 having being tried for larceny Alexander Blunt age 31 "" ""
both were found not guilty
And then to match for what you have for Philip Blunt same date and also for larceny but he was as you also found was found guilty and was noted for transportation 7 years.
Wendy
Thanks Wendy,
Yes, you did find the right record and family, thanks :)
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Australian board might be able to help with the transportation bit. It would explain why he can't be found later. Still might be worth asking for a look-up at the archives to check the sentence was carried out.
:-\
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Thanks, I will do that :)
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Just an update:
Philip Powell really is Philip Blunt afterall :D
We found this out after ordering the birth certificates for Mary Blunt and Eliza Powell.
And even more shocking - there was no first wife. Maria Puglsey was the mother of all the children although she was alot younger than Philip ::) and would have been a teenager when the oldest were born not to mention they did not marry till 1861 :-[
Philip and Mary Powell's birth were registered as Blunt and then Eliza was registered as a Powell ??? We are still trying to find out the cause of the name change at about 1858 ...
Anyway - it doesn't look like Philip was transported after all because he is not (so far) on any of the convict ships lists but I am still trying to find out what happened to him between 1842 - 1851.
I was wondering if anyone on this forum might be able to offer some advice about finding a death ceritificate for Philip Powell/Blunt though.
We have searched and searched to no avail. The Philip Powell death cert from Brecknock is an 18 month old baby ...
He definately died around 1867 because he is stated as deceased on his son's death certificate from the same year.
Wasn't it illegal to no register a death?
It's so mysterious that there is no death certificate ... :'(
Rebecca :)
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Glad to know you're making progress. Now, why didn't that occur to us when we couldn't find an earlier marriage? ::)
As for the lack of death reg, not so much illegal, as, in theory, the burial couldn't take place without a death certificate. If he was working away from home, he may have been registered as 'unknown'. If you search on FreeBmd with unknown as the surname, you'll see just how many there are.
I've got 2 instances of the same sort of thing in my tree where I cannot find a death registration. One of them could have been anywhere in the UK or even beyond, so short of ordering every cert for that particular name as it's before ages appear in the index, I'm stuck. His widow never remarried. The other one I have on the 1881 census and his widow remarries 10 months later, but no sign of the registration. I hope it's one that didn't make it from the local office to the GRO.
::)
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Hi osprey,
you might be right, he could have been registered as unknown that might explain why we can't find a death registration ...
Thanks,
Rebecca :)
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Another update -
I asked GRO to check the birth certificates for the Alice Powells born in Pontypridd 1889 - 1890 and Harriett Powell did not turn out to be the mother of either.
So, I think that rules out Harriett as Alice Maud's mother. I might just order both those certificates anyway just to see if there is any connection.
I am considering that Maria Evans is her mother now - because I noticed that there are a few Alice Maud and Alice Evans born in Pontypridd and Glamorgan.
I made another post about finding Maria on 1891 census just to check where she was living because I have not been able to find her so far.
So back to square one ... :-[
Rebecca :)
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thought we'd found a possible death reg for Maria, back in reply 21
Maria Evans 34 march qtr 1874 Pontypridd vol 11a pg 262
:-\
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Sorry, just read your other post and I've mixed up the Marias.
::)