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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Ebor337 on Thursday 23 July 09 20:31 BST (UK)
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I'm having a big headache about one of my ancestors.
On his marriage certificate (it is definitely him!), in 1920, he is down as a 22 year old. However, there is no other records of an Albert Ward born in 1898 who lives in York.
HOWEVER, after some research (I have his fathers name and his brothers from the marriage cert) there is a family that follows through on the 1881 - 1911 censuses, but, Albert's DOB on them all is about 1894/95!!! If this is true, great, infact it was save me a HUGE headache, but I am just wondering why the marriage cert DOB is wrong which is giving me such a big headache - i've always taken them to be gospel.
Help!
:)
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The truth isn't always told on marriage certs - no proof of age had to be given - also sometimes records are mistranscribed
My grandparents marriage cert shows my grandfather age 30 - he was 36 and the 6 had been mistranscribed as 0 - my grandmother age was shown as 21 - but she fibbed - she was actually 17 - but "upped" her age as she was marrying a man much older than her
Sometimes if the lady was older than the gent she would knock a few years off -all kinds of reasons - and it happens quite often - more often than you would think!
Suz
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The thing I have found doing my tree, is Never take any thing for fact, research, research research, sorry but this a fact
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Thanks guys,
His wife on the cert is 21 so he maybe knocked off 4 or 5 years to make that look acceptable, although a 26 and 21 year old is hardly that bad, to my 21st century mind?! ???
It's just this is the first time I have come accross a lot hinging on a potentially wrong date like this so a bit nervous!
Thanks again. :-)
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In this case, it was more than likely a mistranscription. The numerals 5 and 8 are sometimes very difficult to distinguish from each other.
Carmela
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Personally speaking, if I was unsure I would try and track his death/burial/WW1 service (if any) to see what they say.
Casalguidi :)
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My great grandmother was born Isabell Julia Style which i think is a beautiful name but on her marriage certificate she has informed them the she is called Gertrude Isabella Bates, which was her mothers name.
They didnt have to provide any proof of who they were etc...., and they didnt celebrate birthdays like we do, they forget their age as time goes by, my great granddad used to say he had 2 birthdays a year because he couldnt remember which one was actually his if any.
Lorraine
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Hi
If you can find Albert on the 1901 census age 3 to 7 with his Mum- That will be his true age. At them ages above there is mostly likely more accuracy.
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Hi Ebor337
Yes they do lie. My GG Grandfather and GG Grandmother and Grandfather all lied about their ages when they married even if it was only a year or two difference in their real ages. ;D
Johngirl
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hope this helps
sylvia
1901 England Census
Albert Ward
Age 3
Est 1898
Father Thomas
Mother Mary
born Huddersfield, Ireland ????????????
Huddersfield
St Thomas
Yorkshire
Age
Thomas Ward 26
Mary Ward 29
Dyson Ward 3
Albert Ward 3
Thomas Ward 1 month
Joseph Lockwood 23
Jauly Lockwood 20
Grace Lockwood 18 months
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Hi Sylvia, (Silver surfer)
Bang on target as usual. Old robin hood teaching his archrary! hola opp-a
Thought so! No reason to lie at that age. Theres only one Huddersfield . England (Ireland????? Mistake)
Funny thing though I was baptised at St Thomas's in Huddersfield and My Dad.
I have two grannies who aged or gained 5/6 years at death from marriage age both with odd ball married names.
Robin hood in Auzzy now theres is a ponder! MaidMarian
Dobby
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I know this may seem daft, but have you verified the bride was actually 21?
People needed parental permission to marry under 21, the most common little "lie" was to state you were over 21 to get round that. Now if she was only 16/17/18 and he was 26 the gap is larger. Perhaps they married without the parents knowing.
Are the witnesses family members?
Jenny
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Hi Ebor,
Try finding one of the siblings Births, as addresses were on the Birtn cert by the 1920 ( I think) You Live I note in York! so access the Electoral registers in Libraries/Archive offices. Try and work back using them. If the Marriage was by licence Marriage by Allegation. There will be records on this at the Borthwick centre at York Uni. Also try finding Alberts death year. (Wills) (Parish burial records)There are 3 or 4 Albert's in the Birth Gro BMDs born 1893/1895 in York. So one has to find the families of the other 2/3 to eliminate by location in York on the Electoral Registers. The fathers occupation is a good yard stick! archive offices will have school records, Employment records them years. Trade Directories Ie Barber -Blacksmith and so on.
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Hi all, thanks for your effort and wonderful information! I really appreciate! You're all brill.
Anyway, there are a few problems, and I'm pretty sure he's not the Huddersfield one.....
I know that Albert's father is called Charles. On his marriage certificate it says 'Charles Ward (deceased)' under the father. Also, on the same marriage certificate the witness is 'H. Ward' and when I have had a quick look at the electoral rolls, Albert is living with one other person - Harry Ward.
As stated earlier, there is a family in York that correspond to those names - in 1901 they can be seen at RG13/4436/88/28. And a quick take off is here:
Charles Ward 52
Elizabeth Ward 52
Mary Ward 24
George Ward 21
Rebecca Ward 18
Edward Ward 17
Benjamin Ward 12
Harry Ward 9
Albert Ward 7
Arthur Ward 8 months
This family can be followed through, with dates and ages matching through the decades, so this would be quite a strong case if it wasn't for the marriage certificate!!
None of my living relatives know anything about the people listed above, they don't know where they were born, or where they died, but I am assuming this is York, for at least Albert, as his son (my grandad) was born in York.
If I could just get one more piece of evidence to show that the 1898 Albert is infact the 1895 one then I can move forward!!!
Thanks though so far everyone!!
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Hi Ebor,
Try finding one of the siblings Births, as addresses were on the Birtn cert by the 1920 ( I think) You Live I note in York! so access the Electoral registers in Libraries/Archive offices. Try and work back using them. If the Marriage was by licence Marriage by Allegation. There will be records on this at the Borthwick centre at York Uni. Also try finding Alberts death year. (Wills) (Parish burial records)There are 3 or 4 Albert's in the Birth Gro BMDs born 1893/1895 in York. So one has to find the families of the other 2/3 to eliminate by location in York on the Electoral Registers. The fathers occupation is a good yard stick! archive offices will have school records, Employment records them years. Trade Directories Ie Barber -Blacksmith and so on.
Good Morning dobfarm,
Yes I do indeed live in York, and go to the archives/local studies libraries quite a lot. I'm just a bit unsure as to my next steps though! But all the above is great info which I will try to digest!
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What do you guys think of this???? ......
I have just done an EXACT search on the 1901 census.
For an Albert Ward born 1895 +/-2 years with Charles as a Father and Harry as a sibling and ..... there is one return. The family I have found in York! I'm thinking more and more that this is the family I have been longing to find and it's strengthened even further imho as Harry (albert's witness) ages are so close together, where in the other potentials, there can be 15 or so years between them ......
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This is an interesting question and I've often wondered myself -
My gg grandparents were married in Ireland in 1868 just before moving to England. He is stated as 'full' age and she was a 'minor'. Would 'full age' have been over 21? He definitely was not, in fact they were around the same age - about 17/18. Could it be then that he did not have his parents' permission, but she did? The witnesses are nobody I recognize, certainly not the parents.
This may be the only place she didn't lie about her age.... when the British census man came calling she managed to lose a few years every time until by 1901 she was nearly a decade younger that she really was. Her husband was not so obliging so by 1911 she gained all the years back :D
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Hi Ebor,
I would by pass Albert and work on Charles Ward! Birth Marriage and Death (Grave Mi's Dedecations WILLS etc) the come back to Albert. Those Electoral reg's will take you to present Day. Newspapers ect. Take a camping bed to Archive offie/Library.Candle and Flask.
Good hunting
As Huddersfield MaidMarian OOps working on the age 22 birth year 1898........... but good try. Sylvia
Dobby
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Hi Ebor,
I would by pass Albert and work on Charles Ward! Birth Marriage and Death (Grave Mi's Dedecations WILLS etc) the come back to Albert. Those Electoral reg's will take yo
Haha, ;D, yes dobby I have already joked with the archive people that I am going to bring a sleeping bag!!!
My only problem with Charles is that I have no details of him whatsoever, only on Albert marriage certificate (and he's dead!).
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Hi again.
Charles was alive 1901 and maybe on the 1911c. He could be in the Untranscribed Deaths Accessed by looking at the original Death gro View in Free BMDs or Anc*t*y .Co. *k Subcribed or the free library Edition looking through quarter by Quarter - Year by year. The obit's in York newspaper 1901 to 1920. York cems Records and Parish burials. Local grave yard memoriel Inscription in the Libaries or family history societies. (Still use free as guest). There will be Records of him those years. Even WW 1 records (War Death in France maybe hence no York record a Most likley)
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Thanks so much dobby, I will try to digest everything you've said later. OUt for the day now but can;t wait to get back to this.
:)
Thanks again.
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LOL I have a marriage cert in front of me for my gt-grandparents.
Date - ok thats correct..........
Grooms name ............ correct but missing his all important middle name.
Grooms age....... 37 - nope he was actually 46
Condition: Widower ......... maybe, but so far I havent found his 1st marriage anywhere !
Rank, ok correct.
Address - lol he was living with bride but a different address on cert (He was a boarder at her home)
Fathers name: ............ well there IS an name there, but its not his fathers name, he was illigitimate but I know his fathers name from his middle name & this isnt it! The name there is his grandfathers.
Fathers occupation: ............. Blacksmith - yeah his REAL father was a blacksmith.
Brides name .................. nope, she gave a nickname not her own name cos apparently she didnt like it!
Brides age .................... 2 years out, older than she actually was.
Condition...........correct
Address ...............correct
fathers name.............. well kind of correct, he was called James Henry, but she names him as Henry, but he may have been known as this.
Would someone Lie on a Marriage cert .............. definatly yes!
Gaille
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Hi Ebor
Deaths Jun 1920
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WARD Charles M Malton 9d 427
Depending on the month of the marriage if after June 1920 and some villages being on the York boundry overlap.
Just Possible on the 1901 census for Charles aged 52 or 71 by 1920
Based on No other Charles with age and City/Town and its closeness to York!
As topic "Did they Lie?
This charles was 68. as you have found already 5 years is nothing as age difference on these old doc's
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Hi Dobby and others,
Thanks agin for your help.
I'll have a think about how to get to Charles, only knowing his name and his death was pre 1920! Fun fun fun! :-[
Gaille, that MC crazy - i would be pulling my hair out if I had to work from that!
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Hi Ebor
When your sticking the hair back! ::) :'(
The Man!
quote:
How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?
Unquote:
Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
;D
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have had a quick look at the electoral rolls, Albert is living with one other person - Harry Ward.
This may be an obvious question but have you checked the 1911 census for this address?
Casalguidi :)
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I
have had a quick look at the electoral rolls, Albert is living with one other person - Harry Ward.
This may be an obvious question but have you checked the 1911 census for this address?
Casalguidi :)
Sure have Casa, its another family. :(
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Do you have a service number for anybody listed at the address in 1918/1919 electoral registers?
Casalguidi :)
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Do you have a service number for anybody listed at the address in 1918/1919 electoral registers?
Casalguidi :)
Hi again! :)
Yes, from the absent voters list I have Albert Ward "26451, Pte, A. Co, 6bn, M.G.C"
Which i'm guessing means he was a private in the machine gun corp in A company, 6th battalion and his service number was 26451. His medal card is on ancestry but not sure what else .....
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Hi Ebor,
Alberts army records should confirm is birth year - your original object
below
Maybe?
maybe not!
Births Mar 1849 BROWNRIGG Elizabeth Tadcaster 23 657
Ulleskelf,
Marriages Dec 1869 BROWNRIDGE Elizabeth York 9d 75
X
WARD Charles York
Births Dec 1847 WARD Charles York 23 609
Daddy___ Marriages Dec 1846 Ward Charles York 23 765
X
Mummy Wilson Mary
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I have a similar problem. Grandfather according to baptism records and following census's was born 1875. Marriage cert in 1906 gives age of 26, so birth c1880. 1911 census and war service records also point to 1879/80. I'm trying to sort out correct death without resorting to buy multiple certs. I've found 4 possibles allowing for different ages. Depends what age was given when registering death.
JUst hope that somehow can find correct one - £7.00 I don't mind, but multiples - no-way!
Su
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Hi
The only way without buying multi Certs is to check all alternatives first and eliminate. As on this thread and search similar posts also Rootchart library & resouces first.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers/CountryEngland.htm#PageTitle
http://www.bmdregisters.co.uk/
If you can get to a Library of the said place ( location in censuses) Pick out the candidates first ie gro plus/ minus 5 years of birth year your think on locations near your parish. Then check IGI Family search & Hugh Wallis! then find the parish of the Census or the marriage and enter your ancestors full name but also in Hugh Wallis enter the surname only aswwell! from this note the batch number. What your looking for is a family of siblings from the same Dad & mum of the said marriage. A descending years of siblings that will compare with the kids in the census. If there are two births the same year? look for other pointers as Nonconfomist and Anglican Bapts that may seperate them. Then the fathers occupation in certs -parish- census and also Mothers occupation in the census from Marriage gro certs/parish registers. (parish Marriages and Births are near the same as the Gov GRO and early ones where copies of the parish. Thus as these copies cost nothing to look!* at or Pennies 50p to buy a copy of or a couple pound to send for (Tops) some libraries send the copies free if only a couple wanted.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,376065.0.html
Post and ask before buying! as theres alway someone who will help or know also advise.
Dobby
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It was quite common to misquote ages on marriage. My grandparents married in 1894, his age on the certificate 55, hers 36, a gap of 19 years. However, research has shown that he was born in 1828, she in 1859 making their real ages 66 and 35, a gap of 31 years! It is also not uncommon for age gaps to be progresively bridged over 2 or even 3 censuses, by aging the older partner 5 years and the younger partner 10 years or more, a gap even the size of my grandparents' could be largely bridged in 20 years.
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We've probably all got weird and wonderful marriage certificates, including me:
10 April 1861 - St Peter Leeds - Charles Archbell, 23, Carter, living at Georges Street, Leeds, father George Archbell, Baker. And Ann Powell, 21, of Vicar Lane, Leeds, father Charles Powell, Farmer. Both signed the register. WRONG
1861 Census, taken just 3 days earlier:
Charles Archbell, 27, Ag Lab, living at Hillside, Tadcaster with parents, father George Archbell, Carter.
Ann Powell, 26, living with father and siblings at Wighill Lane, Tadcaster, father Thomas Powell, Ag Lab.
And to crown it all, Ann produced a child on 10 April 1861 in Tadcaster, and was unable to sign her name when registering the birth. ;D
BumbleB
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An interesting point has been raised about WW1 deaths in France. Where were they registered, and does the record still exist bearing in mind what happened to the WW1 service histories in the blitz?
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Could it be then that he did not have his parents' permission, but she did?
Over 40 years ago I lied on my marriage certificate. I couldn't find my father for his consent, and I was under 21 (so need parental permission to marry) so I said he was dead - no doubt to the confusion of future genealogists! So you can't take even relatively modern BMD certificates as being gospel truth!
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Suggest, if you haven't already done so you make a statement to that effect and post it with your will to ease the confusion.
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An interesting point has been raised about WW1 deaths in France. Where were they registered, and does the record still exist bearing in mind what happened to the WW1 service histories in the blitz?
A lot of WW1 records were lost in the WW2 blitz on London is true.
These Websites will help people
http://www.militaryindexes.com/worldwarone/
http://www.cwgc.org/debt_of_honour.asp?menuid=14
http://stockindexonline.com/index.php?q=keyword_search&edtKeyword=graves%20of%20ww1%20soldiers&rdbKeyword=1§ion=keywordsearch
http://www.greatwar.co.uk/organizations/commonwealth-war-graves-commission.htm
http://www.genealogylinks.net/uk/england/all-england/military-ww1.htm
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp. Enter the name also Enter “WO” (for War Office) in department 3rd box down
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Thanks for your help Dobfarm.
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Hi Red
As this page has a high readage reponce it may help others aswell!
Many of your requests & answers on the all boards on roots and some real sound good advice given by you aswell .
Dobby
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[quote
Hi again! :)
Yes, from the absent voters list I have Albert Ward "26451, Pte, A. Co, 6bn, M.G.C"
Which i'm guessing means he was a private in the machine gun corp in A company, 6th battalion and his service number was 26451. His medal card is on ancestry but not sure what else .....
Hi there,
Can you tell me where I can find the absent voters list please? I have at least two of my gt. uncles listed as absent voters, but didn't know there was a list for them :-[
Thanks :)
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Hi Mum 25
This link will explain more about AVL
http://www.pals.org.uk/avl/
Dobby
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Thank you Dobby :)
I don't know if that list just has Accrington people on it, in which case it won't have my relatives, but I'll save the site and have a good look tomorrow when I'm less tired :)
Off to my bed now, before I fall asleep on the keyboard ;D
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Hi there,
Can you tell me where I can find the absent voters list please? I have at least two of my gt. uncles listed as absent voters, but didn't know there was a list for them :-[
Thanks :)
Hi mother25,
The AVL was lodged with the appropriate Electoral Register in my local archives - I assume this is the case for most local authorities.
Sweet dreams!
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Sadly, in my experience only a small minority of the AVLs survive. Very much a case of pot luck.An AVL is compiled by the Returning Officer for the Local Authority, usually today the director of Legal Services, and lasts for the currency of the register. In my experience it is not normally published, though the end of wartime situation may have been different.
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Mother25: As I'd used the AVL for Leeds in the past, the google search was still valid - and Accrington does appear to have an AVL on-line. Good luck!
Ebor337: I just googled "Absent voters list" and a number of towns/cities appeared on the list. Good luckto you, too. :)
BumbleB
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Hi there,
Can you tell me where I can find the absent voters list please? I have at least two of my gt. uncles listed as absent voters, but didn't know there was a list for them :-[
Thanks :)
Hi mother25,
The AVL was lodged with the appropriate Electoral Register in my local archives - I assume this is the case for most local authorities.
Sweet dreams!
Thank you, Ebor :)
I had a good night's sleep thanks, first time in ages I've managed more than 4 hours in a row ;)
Now I am planning my next visit to Liverpool Record office to see if they've got a list there ;D
Won't be for a few weeks though, as I've just had a weekend there, but no time to visit record office, sadly :(
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Hi -Mum 25
The Accrington AVL was a typical one to show you about them! it was pure chance it was Lancashire. Nothing to do with Liverpool but if it does then again random chance luck!
Dobby
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Have been looking for the Boston, Lincs AVL for 1918. Plenty of references to it on Google, but I can't view anything definite, not even a location for it. Is it the site, or is it me?
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Hi This website Seems to have Liverpool on it. Then sends you to Liverpool records office link search for AVLs 1918
http://www.1914-1918.net/grandad/avl.htm
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The AVLs for Boston don't seem to exist, pity. However the site looks as though it will be very useful in the longer term.Thanks for link
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Hi Red
I'm forgeting who wants what or who's who on this post.
My Great granddad Samuel Tidmarsh Married Mary Cutts from Bolsover1867 in Wales Village Yorkshire. Near Derbyshire Border Clowne -Duckmanton and Bolsover. He'd come to Work in the Mines from Balsall Warwickshire.
The Marriage certificate said Father Charles Cutts Wittness George Cutts. Birth of Mary Cutts Bolsover 1946 Showed father George Cutts- Census history showed George Cutts.
Now George was on a Murder Charge but was reduced to Manslaughter and got Two years in prison 1848 while poaching.
Qu- Did the Clerk make the mistake over George and Charles names or THE BIG LIE>was it the family skeleton of George's past..
Dobby
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Hi Dobby
Apologies for butting in here, but I wonder if a Mary Cutts, widow of Joseph Cutts, collier, who died in Selston(??) in 1839 could be part of your farmily? If so, I have the death cert, bought in error while researching my own family. You're welcome to it - pm me.
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Hi Lesley
Thanks for your offer! but this was later and Mary Cutt age 20 in 1867 born dec 1846 died 1902 in Duckmanton Chesterfield as Mrs Mary Tidmarsh as I said She Married Saumuel Tidmarsh 1867.
See was born Mary Cutts.
I was just pointing out the Lies told on Marriage certificates as topic.
But was a kind offer from you all the same.
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Thought it could be part of the wider family (because of the mining connection) - always glad to find a home for reject BMDs!
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Hi Lesley,
Maybe connected as not done much research back from George B 1826 Bolsover Chesterfield. There are a few trees on George Cutts. on Yahoo search engine but ?
His wife was Fanny Fox from Heath and done nothing on her yet! ........................... One day.
There's a Forum board for unwanted BMD certs on this website. You never know- out there in some lonely country farmhouse an old lady knitting just wanting that bit of info or a young High school student................ starting his family history
Regards Dobby
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Could it be then that he did not have his parents' permission, but she did?
Over 40 years ago I lied on my marriage certificate. I couldn't find my father for his consent, and I was under 21 (so need parental permission to marry) so I said he was dead - no doubt to the confusion of future genealogists! So you can't take even relatively modern BMD certificates as being gospel truth!
Hi
If anyone else is reading the above.
Don't do this!
Where permission of a living parent is required, it seems that permission is required for the Marriage to be Lawfully valid (UK).
There must be a Legal mechanism in place, when the location of one or even both parents is unknown.
I'm wondering if it could lead to problems regarding inheritance etc., from that date and into the future.
Not to mention dishonesty claiming someone is dead, when they are alive to gain something or gain an advantage might be considered as Fraud.
Mark
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Could it be then that he did not have his parents' permission, but she did?
Over 40 years ago I lied on my marriage certificate. I couldn't find my father for his consent, and I was under 21 (so need parental permission to marry) so I said he was dead - no doubt to the confusion of future genealogists! So you can't take even relatively modern BMD certificates as being gospel truth!
Hi
If anyone else is reading the above.
Don't do this!
Where permission of a living parent is required, it seems that permission is required for the Marriage to be Lawfully valid (UK).
There must be a Legal mechanism in place, when the location of one or even both parents is unknown.
I'm wondering if it could lead to problems regarding inheritance etc., from that date and into the future.
Not to mention dishonesty claiming someone is dead, when they are alive to gain something or gain an advantage might be considered as Fraud.
Mark
The law has changed over time, but today, a person lying on a marriage notice, banns or marriage register may commit an offence of perjury (S3.1 Perjury Act 1911), but that does not automatically invalidate the marriage (unless the lie was to hide that the person was already married, the person was actually under 16, or too closely related to their spouse).
In cases of parental consent, it would also depend on whether such consent had been actively refused or just never asked for ......but someone would have to actively seek to have the marriage declared invalid/void.
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The law has changed over time, but today, a person lying on a marriage notice, banns or marriage register may commit an offence of perjury (S3.1 Perjury Act 1911), but that does not automatically invalidate the marriage (unless the lie was to hide that the person was already married, the person was actually under 16, or too closely related to their spouse).
In cases of parental consent, it would also depend on whether such consent had been actively refused or just never asked for ......but someone would have to actively seek to have the marriage declared invalid/void.
Hello
Thank you.
I made a comment not to criticise anyone. Information given on a signed Marriage Certificate and Declaration should be correct.
Your reply still suggests the seriousness of the matter.
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A more detailed examination of the Marriage Acts is required regarding validity.
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https://www.parliament.uk/about/living-heritage/transformingsociety/private-lives/relationships/overview/lawofmarriage-/
Parental consent
No marriage of a person under the age of 21 was valid without the consent of parents or guardians. Clergymen who disobeyed the law were liable for 14 years transportation.
Although Jews and Quakers were exempted from the 1753 Act, it required religious non-conformists and Catholics to be married in Anglican churches.
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It appears the question of validity was originally a historic one, but would require an examination of the various UK Marriage Acts (if Marrying in the UK) to confirm if that part of the Act applied/still applies?
Mark
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My Sister married about 1980 and she required my Father's Consent because she was still 17.
I seem to recall the age then was 18 and if she waited a year, she would no longer require my Dad's Consent to Marry.
Mark
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There must be a Legal mechanism in place, when the location of one or even both parents is unknown.
There is ... the Registrar General can decide to dispense with the requirement altogether, or a court can give the consent.
My Sister married about 1980 and she required my Father's Consent because she was still 17.
Still applies today - consent is required under 18.
But if she had lied and claimed to be 19, that wouldn't automatically make the marriage invalid.
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There must be a Legal mechanism in place, when the location of one or even both parents is unknown.
My Sister married about 1980 and she required my Father's Consent because she was still 17.
Still applies today - consent is required under 18.
But if she had lied and claimed to be 19, that wouldn't automatically make the marriage invalid.
For an answer regarding the question, you would have to refer to the various UK Marriage Acts.
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For us as Family Historians the information given on a Marriage Certificate ought to be correct, especially on the Certificate/s where the Marriage Parties are actually signing.
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Hi,
I had this with my Gran, she was 10 years older than my Grandad, but on her marriage certificate she had reduced that difference to 4 years. Probably she didn't want people to know how much older than him she was.
Another problem I had from an actual marriage certificate, was the wrong name given for my great grandfather's father, so spent years looking for the wrong person, and so was unable to find my great grandfather's birth.
It wasn't until the 1891 census came out that gave his correct place of birth that I was able to trace his father with a completely different name. Even the census returns had the wrong place of birth up until then......
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My grandparents marriage certificate was interesting. He was b 1828, she 1859. On the certificate in 1894 he was 55 she was 40. My Aunt was b 5 months later!!
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My grandparents' marriage certificate is also interesting. He was born in 1902 but by 1924 he was 27 years old. She was born in 1892 but was only 30 in 1924.
I suspect they were attempting to “smooth out” the age difference ;).
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I'm having a big headache about one of my ancestors.
On his marriage certificate (it is definitely him!), in 1920, he is down as a 22 year old. However, there is no other records of an Albert Ward born in 1898 who lives in York.
HOWEVER, after some research (I have his fathers name and his brothers from the marriage cert) there is a family that follows through on the 1881 - 1911 censuses, but, Albert's DOB on them all is about 1894/95!!! If this is true, great, infact it was save me a HUGE headache, but I am just wondering why the marriage cert DOB is wrong which is giving me such a big headache - i've always taken them to be gospel.
Help!
:)
I was born 1942. When I married (I was a teenager) you had to have your parents' consent to marry under 21. I didn't know where my father was (many men disappeared during WW2, so it was easier to say he was dead !
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My grandparents' marriage certificate is also interesting. He was born in 1902 but by 1924 he was 27 years old. She was born in 1892 but was only 30 in 1924.
I suspect they were attempting to “smooth out” the age difference ;).
similar to mine above
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Many people assume that the reason for a disparity of ages on census and marriage etc. is due to the person lying, but in most cases it is probably because they were simply unsure about when they were born.
Unlike today until the early 20th century there were very few occasions when a person needed to know their age so people did not think about their age.
That is not to say some people did not lie but simply it was not as common as many think.
Cheers
Guy
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In 1898 my Gt aunt stated she was 21, she wasn't even 15, why she lied?, well I really don't know except I believe her mother, who was on her 3rd partner had just got married again and I suppose this poor girl fell in love and decided to lie to get away, I don't know how she got away with it as in looks there must be a big difference between an almost 15 year old and a 21 year old, But, they stayed together for years happily according to members of the family, there was no need for her to hurry to get married
Lies have always suited the person at the time of lying
Louisa Maud
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My grandparents marriage certificate was interesting. He was b 1828, she 1859. On the certificate in 1894 he was 55 she was 40. My Aunt was b 5 months later!!
Would be interesting to follow that one through - 1894 - 55 makes him born 1839 ?
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In 1898 my Gt aunt stated she was 21, she wasn't even 15, why she lied?, well I really don't know except I believe her mother, who was on her 3rd partner had just got married again and I suppose this poor girl fell in love and decided to lie to get away, I don't know how she got away with it as in looks there must be a big difference between an almost 15 year old and a 21 year old, But, they stayed together for years happily according to members of the family, there was no need for her to hurry to get married
Lies have always suited the person at the time of lying
Louisa Maud
Not quite on the same theme - but I ordered my own birth certificate in 1974 - and it arrived saying issued in 1984 and it was printed - still have it though it makes no difference now - clerical errors hold many reasons as to why sometimes we get impossible dates on certificates or parish records - census and such like - after a few years on doing research myself especially in the good old paper days as to just how many clerical errors I make myself when faced with reels of information - not all is all down to what may appear to be a lie - unless a true lie is continued to be followed through into all accounts in regard of that person - 15 and 21 - well just ask a bar attendant who is still asking for your ID when you are 28 years old - something that is asked many a time even today - back in the day of 1898 where lasses could appear to be much older this would have been quite easy and if she felt mature enough to be married then why not - first impressions count here too and the person before he/she has even asked your age they are summarising what they believe to be your age from sight end up bypasing your reply of actual age and have writtern down the age that was most forefront in the clecric mind - for many - time had no concept as you were as old as you look or feel - for some birthdays were just not celebrated - hense why we have so many variations on peoples ages - your Grt Aunt proberly just felt mature enough to get married and looked matured enough for no one to consider to question her for proof - you never mentioned the man's age here and could that also be a reflection on why she may have lied - I don't think any major fraud was meant to be committed here - just a wish to be married - hope it all went well for them . . .
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Many people assume that the reason for a disparity of ages on census and marriage etc. is due to the person lying, but in most cases it is probably because they were simply unsure about when they were born. Unlike today until the early 20th century there were very few occasions when a person needed to know their age so people did not think about their age.
I'm sure you are right, Guy, at least some of the time. Following an individual's entries through a series of censuses, sometimes one finds the age tailing off slowly, as if they had just lost count. But the details were quite likely supplied by another family member who may also have forgotten.
Another example I have is the Irish death cert for my gt-grandmother, who I suspect was living on her own. The death was registered by a non-relative, maybe a neighbour, who just guessed an age, several years out, as it happens.
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Many people assume that the reason for a disparity of ages on census and marriage etc. is due to the person lying, but in most cases it is probably because they were simply unsure about when they were born. Unlike today until the early 20th century there were very few occasions when a person needed to know their age so people did not think about their age.
I'm sure you are right, Guy, at least some of the time. Following an individual's entries through a series of censuses, sometimes one finds the age tailing off slowly, as if they had just lost count. But the details were quite likely supplied by another family member who may also have forgotten.
Another example I have is the Irish death cert for my gt-grandmother, who I suspect was living on her own. The death was registered by a non-relative, maybe a neighbour, who just guessed an age, several years out, as it happens.
I wish someone could lie about my age and I could be 21 again . . . ;D
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It does seem confidential though that big age differences are often apparently manipulated