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Research in Other Countries => Canada => Canada Lookup Request => Topic started by: misty13 on Thursday 06 August 09 22:50 BST (UK)
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i am researching the thirza england family who lived in red deer in 1911 and 1916. children of thirza were born in australia. in particular, i am looking for any info on frank herbert england, son of thirza, who died in 1916 in WW1. frank herbert fathered a son, born 24 may, 1914, in either red deer or calgary. the son's name was alexander percival (last name unknown as we do not know the birth mother's name. alexander was adopted by the arthur cook family in red deer and show up on the 1916 census as alexander p cook. how would i go about finding the name of the birth mother? would alberta vital stats be able to find the birth based on the date? alexander passed away in 1979 in victoria and his children would love to find his biological family. any help would be greatly appreciated.
thanks in advance.
gwen
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http://www.servicealberta.gov.ab.ca/vitalstatistics.cfm
Link to Alberta Vital Statistics which explains who is entitled to records
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~abwcobit/index.htm
This links you to papers of the area. There is an entry in the Red Deer paper for the reported disappearance of Frank in 1916.
If Alexander was born out of wedlock I doubt you would find any birth announcement in newspapers. There is an online family tree for this family - have you any information/stories from the siblings of Frank about the mother of Alexander.
I looked at Arthur Allan Cook and his wife Elizabeth Pearl (nee Robbins) thinking that they might have adopted Alexander if their daughter had been the mother. This couple married at Hillier, Prince Edward County, Ontario Dec 31, 1890 and are resident in Hillier in 1891 and on the 1901 census with no children. In 1911 they are in Brandon, Manitoba with numerous lodgers and Arthur's father (Ira) living with them. It appears they had no children and on the 1916 census they are in Red Deer and it shows that Arthur is a member of the 89th Battalion.
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-119.01-e.php?id_nbr=379662
Do you have Frank's military record? I don't know if there would be any mention of his child in them - beneficiary?? Not sure what is actually in one of these records.
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/passenger/001045-100.01-e.php
If you don't have their arrival in Canada you can search here. The family, minus father Arthur Joseph, sailed from Liverpool to Quebec arriving July 20, 1906 on the Canada. They were going to husband/father in Saskatoon.
Debbie
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There is a record of Alexander P. Cook b. May 24, 1914, Calgary Alberta, normally resident at 836 Butte St. Vancouver, father Arthur A. Cook, Victoria crossing into the US at Laurier, Washington on April 14, 1943. He is accompanied by Bernice Lenman and his destination is Dodsland, Saskatchewan
Debbie
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http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-119.01-e.php?id_nbr=379662
Do you have Frank's military record? I don't know if there would be any mention of his child in them - beneficiary?? Not sure what is actually in one of these records.
These files can have a goldmine of information in them. Since Frank died in the War his Will should/would be in the file as well. In the back of the soldiers pay book, they had to write out a Last Will and Testament in the event of death.
Karen
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http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-119.01-e.php?id_nbr=113701
Arthur Cook's attestation papers
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-119.01-e.php?id_nbr=379642
Arthur England's attestation papers. According to the Red Deer paper he opened up a painting and paper hanging business with Harold Haster after he returned from WWI. Daughter born in Parkvale, Red Deer in 1921.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/06v1/
An interesting article from the Red Deer paper. Is it possible that Frank was not Alexander's father but his sister May's child?
Debbie
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http://www.rdgensoc.ab.ca/queries.htm
Perhaps the Red Deer chapter of the Alberta Genealogical Society could help.
Debbie
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thank you, debbie, for all that info. i agree with you that the daughter, may england, could possibly be the biological birth mom for alexander percival in may, 1914. that sure fits the time frame for may's "abduction" and subsequent birth. is there any further info available on this ross piper? i think we are on the right track. thanks so much for your help. hope to hear back
gwen
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http://www.rootschat.com/links/06v0/
Red Deer newspaper reference to Ross Piper or Lynn Ross Piper - it shows the start of his trial but nothing further. You would probably have to flip through the years rather than use the search feature to try and find the end to the story.
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/genealogy/index-e.html
Follow this link and type in Lynn Ross Piper to get to his Attestation papers for WWI
In 1916 the census for his family on Victoria Avenue in Red Deer showed
Lynn Ross Piper(24) 12th CMR France.
Harriet Lydia Piper(20) and Elvin(3), Verna(6 mos). All born Alberta except Lynn Ross (born Ont) and all Salvation Army religion.
Date of death for Lynn Ross Piper @ 76 Jan 21, 1968 Prince George, BC and death for a Lydia Piper @ 72 May 13, 1975 at Sechelt, BC
Online family tree shows Lynn Ross Piper marrying Harriet Lydia Hill and dying in Prince George in 1968. Children are Alvin Edward (Slim) Piper - no details and Verna Irene Piper b. Dec 12, 1915 Red Deer died Jan 21, 1998 Tacoma, Washington and married Raymond Allen Moe (1913-1978) at Lethbridge Sept 12, 1936.
Debbie
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http://www.rootschat.com/links/06v2/
Death of Lynn Ross Piper's adopted father. I have not found the final result of the Piper trial only the beginning on March 4, 1914 with his version of events.
Thanks Jacquie for the advice on shrinking links - they were abnormally large and I wasn't aware that anything could be done.
Debbie
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debbie ----how do i access the info in the red deer newspaper for ross piper's version of events? could not find it. thanks so much for all you are doing to help in this mystery search
gwen
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http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/w/a/l/Marilyn-Jeanne-Walton/index.html
Someone's online family tree which has a photo of Lynn Ross Piper in his WWI uniform and his wife Harriet Lydia Piper Cunningham (must be a second marriage). I didn't download the activex controller and therefore can't access the entire tree. Must be descended from Lynn Ross's daughter Verna.
To get Lynn Ross' version of events go to reply #7 and click on the first link. That takes you to a search page of 5 results. The second one from the bottom, Supreme Court Sittings for March 4, 1914 is where his version is. It is at the bottom of the first column.
Debbie
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debbie---------you are totally amazing!! thank you so much for all that info and access to the photos of lynn ross piper and wife harriet lydia. you have done so much to further this research! i appreciate everything you have looked up for me. i was able to find his birth record in falconburg (sp), ontario and find the name of his bio mom. he too was illegitimate but can further look back at her family. thanks again, debbie, and if you come across anything further, please let me know.
best regards,
gwen
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Hello, I chanced across this site and your conversation about Lynn Ross Piper who is my wife's grandfather. If you Google his name you'll notice a site with Mel Piper's name. That is one of LR's sons. From what we know, he was married 3 times, could well have fathered a child by May England, and he certainly fathered a child in England while during WWI. His last wife, Sue is still alive. We have a copy of LR's birth record. When researching him, be careful, he could be slippery about when and where he was born. The newspaper calls him an "adopted" son, but there is no record of his being formally adopted in either Ontario or Alberta. We sent off for his full WWI military record. This is how we know about the child in England. As you can see from the attached, he was born Lynn Ross Slough.
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michael g- thanks for your response. i am sending you a pm.
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Hi Misty13
I don't know if I have been in touch with you long ago on this, so excuse me if anything is a duplication. Thirza England of Red Deer (born Winterbourne Stoke, Wiltshire UK) was my great grandfather Thomas Grant's sister.
Her children included Frank Herbert England b 1895 Queensland (Canadian Infantryman) who died 9 Sept 1916 WW1 France, and Victoria May England b 1897 Queensland, both in the family you are researching. My research into Red Deer documents suggests that May's brother Frank's death in WW1 could have been an unfortunate but timely episode, which enabled Thirza to pass off her 15 year old daughter's son by Ross Piper as Frank's, and thereby remove any social stigma from May.
The early records concerning Thirza however, are often incorrectly quoted, because Thirza's mother (Ann Petty) remarried soon after her birth. So in her youth, Thirza was often recorded under her stepfather's surname of Mitchell.
I have a great deal on the Grant/Mitchell/England/Sylvester family (all names Thirza had) and can also add the names of the two/three husbands May had after she gave up her son. So if there is anything I can help you with, please let me know.
Roy G
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Hi there
I have just come across this message that I wrote many years ago.
I cant see that it prompted a response.
Did you reply via a PM Misty13, or do I know you by another name?
Yours Roy Grant
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Hello folks, (And Gwen!)
Not sure if anyone is still posting about Lynn Ross Piper and his many legitimate and not so legitimate children....
It so happens that he is my great great grandfather, by means of Mary Elizabeth England. Their son Alexander was my great grandfather. Just for reference, I am also a genetic match to another of his great grandchildren, by a different wife. So, I think that clarifies whether Alexander was really his child.
I'm very keen to learn more about Lynn Ross Piper and his other family members. I'm just getting started, and it's all kindof a jumble, so anything helps! If anyone is willing to share copies of records, etc, please send me a message.
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Hi AHay
I'm still connected. Thirza England was my great grandfather Thomas Grant's sister
Roy
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Hey Roy,
Thirza was my....lets see if i can get this right...great great great grandmother.
Do you know much about the Grant family?
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Hi AHay
I have Lots and lots on my Grant line, right back to the mid 1700s in the Wiltshire villages of Winterbourne Stoke and Chitterne which are only a few miles from Stonehenge. My Grant Tree is also on the Geni website.
In essence you have elder brother Thomas and sister Thirza (Thurza) Grant from WBS
Thomas was born 1855 before his parents' marriage (1857) so was initially on record as Thomas Grant Petty, not Thomas Grant. Thirza Grant was also conceived before their marriage.
Parents Thomas 1827 and Ann Petty 1837
Grand Parents James 1802 and Elizabeth Gilbert 1805
Great Grand Parents John Shepherd Grant 1779 and Elizabeth Wansborough 1789
G G Grand Parents George 1757 and Rachel Yeates 1759
G G G Parent almost certainly George but not 100% positive proof
If you send me a personal message with an e-mail address, I can send you a family tree including supporting text on their past and present with many illustrations and photos of descendants.
2 BTWs
[1] In your intro you wrote;
"Your great great grandfather was a child of Mary Elizabeth England."
In my book that should have been Victoria May England
[2] Where in the world are you?
Regards Roy