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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: tommobecket on Sunday 13 September 09 09:34 BST (UK)

Title: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: tommobecket on Sunday 13 September 09 09:34 BST (UK)
Hello

Does anyone know where I can obtain a concise list of the members of Micheal Collins 'Squad' that operated during the War Of Independence?

I have been asked if my grandfather Denis Byrne was 'Denny Byrne', who was apparantly a squad member, but wheareas I doubt this, I wondered if any one knew of easy access to the list of members. I also know that Denis had a brother Vincent and Denis married Mary Stapleton who had a brother/father called William, and following google searches I see that Vinny Byrne and William Stapleton were members of the squad.

As there were probably dozens of William Stapletons and Denis and Vincent Byrne's in Dublin and having absolutely no evidence of any connection, I was wondering if there was any further information or profiles available on the squad members that may help clarify any associations?

Many thanks
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: scrimnet on Sunday 13 September 09 11:01 BST (UK)
Some years ago I remember seeing a poster of what I recall as one for this unit. It had pictures down both sides, and a large one of Michael Collins at the top. I seem to remember some biographical notes...It was a copy of a contemporaneous one

Whether it was a recruiting poster, or a celebratory one, I do not know. Certainly not a wanted one though...But it was in the most incongruous of places...A British Army bar!
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: shanew147 on Sunday 13 September 09 11:43 BST (UK)
there's a Wikipedia article which names alleged members of the squad - http://www.rootschat.com/links/0733/  As you have probably seen there are a Vincent Byrne & William Stapleton mentioned in the article but I dont know what the source of this detail is.. maybe one of the two books mentioned at the end of the page have a bit more detail.

From what I can see there are no definitive lists of people involved except for some detail for those that later served in the Army - their records are in Military Archives, Cathal Brugha Barracks,

there's also a few books mentioned at these links which might be worth checking into : 
  http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/20thcentury/articles/MichaelCollins.aspx
  http://multitext.ucc.ie/d/Michael_Collins


Shane
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Sunday 13 September 09 18:08 BST (UK)
William Stapleton

From  Irish National Archives  (http://www.nationalarchives.ie/topics/1916/WS822/biography.html)

"William Stapleton joined the Volunteers in 1915, at the age of 17, and was ordered to the Jacob’s garrison in the Rising. He subsequently became a member of Michael Collins’s “Squad”, and carried out many executions during the War of Independence, which are detailed later in his statement. He was also involved in the burning of the Custom House. His account is striking for its dispassionate descriptions of the most chilling activities.

He is very vocal on the “separation women”, whose husbands and sons were in the British Army, and who gathered in force outside Jacob’s to hurl insults at the occupants and anyone attempting to join them. On Tuesday of Easter week, Stapleton was involved in the bicycle patrol which was sent out to draw the fire of British troops firing on Boland’s Mills. On their return, one of the patrol was shot as they turned into York St, and subsequently died of his injuries."
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Sunday 13 September 09 18:11 BST (UK)
Vincent Byrne

From  Irish National Archives  (http://www.nationalarchives.ie/topics/1916/WS423/biography.html)

"Vinny Byrne was 15 years old at the time of the Rising. His statement, 75 pages long, begins with his experiences in Jacob’s in 1916 (the first 7 pages) and continues to outline his activities as a member of Michael Collins’s “Squad”, a group of men selected to carry out targeted assassinations, mainly of British Intelligence agents and alleged informers. He details his exploits in detail and with blithe insouciance, often writing “and that was another informer out of the way.” He was also involved in many raids for arms, including that on the Great Northern Railway yard and the B+I sheds at Sir John Rogerson’s Quay. He shot two of the British agents targeted on Bloody Sunday."
Title: Re: Michael Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Sunday 13 September 09 18:19 BST (UK)
The Squad

You can certainly get a lot of information about each of the members of The Squad. For readers of this forum that are not aware of the Squad. Here is a brief description

"Collins had also selected a group of Volunteers, known as the Squad, for the purpose of executing British agents. One of these, a young man, only 18 years of age, called Vinny Byrne, carried out many of the executions. Before killing his victims from close range Byrne would often say the words "May the Lord have mercy on your soul." Det Sergeant Patrick Smith was the first victim of the Squad. From then on the Squad carried out a series of ruthless killings which struck terror into the British establishment in Ireland."

Without becoming political about this, it is fair to say that one mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist

Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Sunday 13 September 09 18:37 BST (UK)
List of Members of the Squad

 Wikipedia Article  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Squad_%28IRA_unit%29) gives members asfollows

The founder members were, and they were employed full time and received a weekly wage.
Paddy Daly (leader),
Mick McDonnell,
Ben Barrett,
James Conroy,
Sean Doyle,
Joe Leonard,
Pat McCrae,
Jim Slattery
Bill Stapleton.


Further members seem also to have  included
Mick Love,
Gearoid O'Sullivan,
Patrick Caldwell,
Charlie Dalton,
Mick O'Reilly,
Vincent Byrne,
Sean Healy,
James Ronan,
Tom Keogh
Tom Cullen.
Seán Lemass
Stephen Behan (the father of Irish writers Brendan Behan and Dominic Behan)
Dr. Andy Cooney is also reported to have been associated with "The Squad".

The best known of the Squad's operations was the assassination of 12 British officers on 21 November 1920 (some of whom were spies, some of who were mistaken identity). The Black and Tans responded the next day by machine gunning the crowd and killing 12 (the number is coincidental) innocent civilians at Croke Park Gaelic Football Match.

In view of the whole background it is not surprising that much has remained unspoken about individual's involvements over the years. With nobody wanting to claim "responsibility" in many instances.

Your best bet is to peruse the Irish National Archives for the statements from members of the Squad that are available.

You can get a photo of Vinny Byrne by querying Google with ""Vinny Byrne" squad"  (http://images.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&um=1&sa=1&q=%22Vinny+Byrne%22+squad&btnG=Search+images&aq=f&oq=)

Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: eadaoin on Monday 14 September 09 22:49 BST (UK)
on RTE 1 at the moment

eadaoin
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: gormangenealogy on Sunday 20 September 09 18:42 BST (UK)
the squad
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: gormangenealogy on Sunday 20 September 09 20:54 BST (UK)
Plenty of photo's here

Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Sunday 20 September 09 21:07 BST (UK)
Includes the one of the "Cairo gang"

http://generalmichaelcollins.com/WEB_Photo_Folder/1.PhotoAlbum/Cairo_Gang.html

I have tried emailing them too to see if they have any ideas on it
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: Ms. Smokestoomuch on Tuesday 22 September 09 10:44 BST (UK)
My relative mentions Bloody Sunday on his pension application but I haven't got any further with finding out more.
Ardle O'Hanlon on "who do you think you are?" found his grandfather on Bloody Sunday mentioned in Ernie O'Malley's Notebooks (or diary). I can't remember which Dublin college keeps them.

On the day of Bloody Sunday the list of targets was quite long. I can't remember now if it was 25 or 35 targets. Anyhow I think what seems to be the case was that more men were needed. So it ended up that men who had no experience of this type of assassination got roped in. Some of these men were from E company. I think Todd Andrews was involved this way.
Well that's what I got outta my poking around.

I'm finding the politics of it all a huge barrier in my search. With my relative, even his children have different views on whether or not their father was involved. He had views about that level of violence but on the other hand so did Todd Andrews.

Very frustrating.







Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Tuesday 22 September 09 11:31 BST (UK)
Quote
I 'm finding the politics of it all a huge barrier in my search. 

That is a problem with much of one's research in Ireland, particularly where violence was involved. I have found even with a landlord murder in rural Tipperary in the 1820s that nobody wants to discuss it. Their descendants still live there.

You have to accept the situation, and try another way of approaching the question.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Tuesday 22 September 09 13:31 BST (UK)
 I came across this article by someone from TCD  (http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract;jsessionid=9BCD4F75EE779BD2E109166FAAA0EBCF.tomcat1?fromPage=online&aid=468758) about the effects of the shootings on the men that carried out the shootings. I was interested enough to purchase it (£11.50) and it is a very interesting read.

Abstract

21 November 1920 began with the killing of fourteen men in their flats, boarding houses, and hotel rooms in Dublin. The Irish Republican Army (IRA) alleged that they were British spies. That afternoon British forces retaliated by firing on a crowd of supporters at a Gaelic football match in Croke Park, killing twelve and injuring sixty. The day quickly became known as Bloody Sunday. Much has been made of the afternoon's events. The shootings in Croke Park have acquired legendary status. Concern with the morning's killing has been largely limited to whether or not the dead men were the spies the IRA said they were. There has been little or no consideration of the men who did the killing. This article is based on largely unused interviews and statements made by the IRA men involved in this and many of the other days that came to constitute the guerrilla war fought against the British forces in Ireland from January 1919 until July 1921. This morning's killings are a chilling example of much of what passed for combat during this struggle. Bloody Sunday morning is used here as a means to explore how generally young and untrained IRA men killed and how this type of killing affected their lives.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: Gary Deering on Monday 28 September 09 05:44 BST (UK)
Great to see my Great Uncle John Wilson listed, for years I was told he was involved with the war of independence, its not till I found this place that  I have seen proof.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: striker on Tuesday 29 September 09 22:56 BST (UK)
Hi All

I'm new to this forum, so be gentle!

Reference 'The Squad', I have a copy of my Grandfather's (Patrick Lawson) witness statement from the Bureau of Military History, Military Archives and he states that he joined the squad in March 1921. His enrolment into the squad with two others brought the unit up to 21 in strength, broken into three groups under the command of Joe Leonard, Tom Keogh and Jim Slattery. Paddy Daly was in charge of the entire squad.

He was involved with the burning of the Custom House and was captured and imprisoned until the treaty was signed in 1922.

Alas, he is vague on other members of the squad.

Striker
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: Gary Deering on Tuesday 29 September 09 23:02 BST (UK)
Hi Striker & Welcome, I am new here myself, This site is the best thing ever for helping you find out about your family,there are great bunch here very friendly.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: Alan8Hughes on Saturday 21 November 09 13:08 GMT (UK)
Hi there, whilst I know there's likely to have been many Byrne's in Dublin, my Grandfather (Edmund Leo Byrne - known principally as Ned Byrne but also it would seem referred to as Eddie Byrne (i've got a couple of letters where he's called that but it's mainly 'Ned')) was involved in IRA activity during this period (ostensibly, it would seem, as dispatch carrier for Michael Collins between Liverpool and Dublin (my grandfather was in the Merchant Navy aboard the SS Blackrock and carried dispatches, and aided in the transit of arms and wanted men between Liverpool and Bristol to Dublin - i have some testimonals dating from the 1920's from former IRA/IRB members to this effect - including Neill Kerr and, also, one or two others he aided following their escape from Usk prison in 1919).  Anyway, he had, i believe, 6 or 7 brothers who were also involved in 'the movement' including a Willy Byrne, a Vincent Byrne and a Gus Byrne (i don't know the names of the others alas) and I don't know if it's possible that he/they were your Grandfather's brother(s)?  I believe the family home during the 1916-21 period was 7 St James' Street, Dublin (don't know if all the brothers were living there at this time or whether some had moved/married/were in safe houses).  Anyway, if any of this is familiar I'll be happy to share my information with you and be very glad of anything you can help me fill-in my gaps with.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: striker on Saturday 21 November 09 19:33 GMT (UK)
Hi Alan

Reference a Edward Byrne who fought with Collins during the the period 1916-22, I'm reading a book, entitled Michael Collins's Intelligence War, written by Michael T Foy and published by Sutton Publishing. In does mention an Eddie Byrne working with a Vinnie Byrne on a job! The author also used a number of 'Witness Statements' now held in Military Archives, Cathal Brugha Bks, Dublin (Viewing is by appointment only).

My uncle does recall my grandfather, Patrick Lawson having a old IRA friend - Vinnie Byrne and they both use to go a a old IRA club in Dublin City during the 50s, 60s and early 70s.

Reference the Byrne family in James St! You should check out the 1911 census online to get the names of Eddie Byrne's parents and siblings. Like you, my great grand father was a George Byrne and I'm having difficulty in locating his Dublin address in 1911. Ironically, he joined the British Army in 1914 (I think) and the family folklore states that he fought in the Battle of the Somme in 1916.

Striker
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: Alan8Hughes on Monday 23 November 09 11:29 GMT (UK)
Hi Striker,

Thanks for the info', I'll order a copy of that book from my local library.  I don't know if you've tried this avenue but it's possible to get information Under the (Irish) Freedom of Information Act from the Military Pension 'people' (I think they're based in Sligo, i'll have a look for the address in my papers and post it here later this week - in my experience they were not 'overly' helpful but they did provide photocopies of his Military Pension Application once i'd 'jumped through the correct hoops' - i applied using my Mother's details as she was my Grandfather's next-of-kin and i think any application had to come from that person themselves or their next-of-kin so you may have to get your uncle to sign any application) - my Grandfather applied for a pension for his IRA/IRB military service during the 1916-1924 period and, in spite of a fairly comprehensive raft of evidence and testimonials indicating he was active from 1916 onwards, it was only awarded from 1919 'Service' onwards (I'm not sure what 'side' my Grandfather was on in the 1921-24 Civil War and suspect that there may have been a 'political' decision to marginalise those on the 'wrong side' and this may have 'cost him' some pension when he applied for it) which always rankled with him afterwards. 

I can appreciate the irony of your great grandfather joining the British army - my grandfather had a 1914-1919 Merchant Navy Medal from the British Government and also a 1917-1921 Service Medal from the Irish Government!

Best of luck in your searches.

Alan
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: dublinbook1916 on Wednesday 03 March 10 21:19 GMT (UK)
46 Rutland Square The Squad was ‘officially’ established on 19 September 1919 at
this address (though by that time it had been in operation for two months and had
already carried out two killings). Members were paid £4.10s per week.
The first four members were: Ben Barrett, Paddy Daly (Paddy Ó Dalaigh, sometimes
said to have succeeded Mick McDonnell as leader, but usually considered the
leader 876; he became a major general in the national army. See also Ballyseedy
Cross, Appendix I), Seán Doyle and Joe Leonard (came right behind Daly in the
chain of command). Other ‘original’ members were Mick McDonnell (described
by some as the first leader), James Conroy, Jim McGuinness, Jimmy Slattery (a
Clareman with only one hand, after being injured in the Custom House fire) and
William ‘Billy’ Stapleton (a Dubliner)877. Added to the ‘original’ nine after a few
months to form ‘The Twelve Apostles’ (a name first applied, derisively, by Austin
Stack) were Vinnie Byrne, Tom Keogh (from Wicklow, later killed in the Civil
War) and Mick O’Reilly.878
Others were added in January 1920 and thereafter, and were chosen for ‘jobs’
as needed. Not all did many ‘jobs’ for Collins, and many were members of various
Dublin units who were picked by Collins to assist the ‘regular’ Squad members;
this was particularly true on Bloody Sunday. In 1921 several more were added and
when men from the Dublin ‘Active Service Unit’ were included the unit was then
known as ‘The Guard’. Those sometimes chosen were: Frank Bolster, J. Brennan,
Ned Breslin, Ben Byrne, Charlie Byrne (a Dubliner called ‘The Count’ because of
his cheerful mien in all situations), Eddie Byrne, Seán (John Anthony) Caffrey,
Patrick (Paddy) Colgan (from Maynooth, Co. Kildare, he married Delia Larkin),
James Connolly, Herbie Conroy, Jim Conway (the ‘one-man column’), Andy
Cooney, Seán Culhane, Tom Cullen (a teetotaler), Charlie Dalton (he was the
brother of Emmet Dalton and wrote With the Dublin Brigade about his experiences
as a member), Jim Dempsey (a Dubliner and an old IRB man who fought in the
Rising), Joe Dolan (another Dubliner, always armed with a .45 and wore a British
876 Leonard, Joseph. Witness Statement 547. 877 Stapleton, William J. (Bill). ‘Michael Collins’ Squad’,
Capuchin Annual, 1969. 878 Leornard indicates the ‘original’ twelve were O’Daly, Leonard, Barrett, Doyle,
Kehoe, Slattery, O’Reilly, Eddie Byrne, Vinnie Byrne, Ben Byrne, Eddie Byrne and Frank Bolster. Leonard,
Joseph. Witness Statement 547.
46 Rutland Square 257
Army badge in his lapel), Joe Dowling, Pat Drury, Tom Duffy, John Dunne, Leo
Dunne, Tom Ennis, Mick Flanagan, Paddy Flanagan (the oldest member of The
Squad), Paddy Griffin, Jack Hanlon, Seán Kavanagh (a Dubliner and later a prison
governor), Ned Kelliher (a Dubliner), Mick Kennedy, Paddy Kennedy (from
Tipperary), Martin Lavan, Paddy Lawson, Seán Lemass (the future Taoiseach),
Billy McClean, Pat McCrae (a great driver), Pat McKeon, Peadar McMahon (later
Chief of Staff of the Free State Army), Mick O’Hanlon, Diarmuid O’Hegarty (a
Corkman and Director of Organisation of the IRA/Volunteers), Bob O’Neill (a
Clareman), Albert Rutherford, Frank Saurin (a Dubliner, known as the best-dressed
Volunteer), Frank Teeling, Liam Tobin (became assistant in the Department of
Intelligence), George White and Johnny Wilson.

This comes from my book, Dublin in Rebellion.

http://www.lilliputpress.ie/author.html?author=Connell%2C+Joseph+E.A.

If I can be of help searching, I often have notes and info from the period that can be helpful -- though I must admit this source is most complete.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: seanod on Thursday 04 March 10 18:52 GMT (UK)
Hi folks, I have just come across this thread. There are some interesting people on it, some of whom I know from the Custom House thread. Patrick Lawson is one of the names on my list.

And I think this must be the Edward Byrne:

“The death has occurred of Mr E. Byrne, 19 Grenville St, Dublin. Member of C Co, 2nd Batt. DB took part in the attack on the Custom House. During the Civil War he was interned and participated in a hunger strike.” Irish Independent, Friday, Jan 08, 1932.

Am I right?  :)
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: Collins22 on Tuesday 09 March 10 13:26 GMT (UK)
Hi Striker,
               I think I spoke with you before regarding your grandfather?
I located the grave and also have a copy of his statement from military archives
which you are most welcome to? Also I take it thats his photo?
Any chance of a copy?
Still working on my project locating the graves and photos of these men which will be hosted on the Collins22 site. They should never be forgotton and this project will make sure of that. With of course your kind permission to use your photo?

            James Langton

(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.

New members must make at least three postings before being allowed to use the PM facility.
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Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: simokav on Monday 15 March 10 22:05 GMT (UK)
Hi, my grandfathers uncle was Joe Leonard and he has quite a bit of info about him if anyone wants some of it for a project or anything?
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: Gary Deering on Tuesday 16 March 10 00:32 GMT (UK)
Hi Simokav, I know its a longshot but does the name Johnny Wilson ring a bell? I heard Joe mentioned him in a statement. Also I would like to know what did Joe do after his Squad days was he a Freestate officer ? & what did he do after the army?
Gary
 
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: simokav on Tuesday 16 March 10 15:24 GMT (UK)
I'll find out during the week from my grandfather.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: Gary Deering on Tuesday 16 March 10 17:25 GMT (UK)
Thanks, we never hear these things,its always about who they plugged during the War of Independence & thats it !
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: Derek Wilson on Wednesday 17 March 10 00:01 GMT (UK)
Hi Gary,

How are you ? It's your long lost cousin here researching our common great-uncle Johnny Wilson!

My Dad told me a couple of stories about him over the years and I've always had it at the back of mind to research him further, especially since I came across a Squad reference to him in "Who's Who in the Irish War of Independence" some years back.  I see you've really uncovered quite a bit of detail thanks to the kind people on this site.

I can't PM (being a newbie) but I'd love if you'd drop me one with your contact details and we can have a chat. 
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: Gary Deering on Wednesday 17 March 10 05:06 GMT (UK)
Hi Derek, Thats Fantastic ! I will try & send you a PM here with my email. So far I have not found out that much, but there is some light at the end of the tunnel !
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: aghadowey on Wednesday 17 March 10 08:36 GMT (UK)
New members usually need to have 2/3 post before they can get and send PMs.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: ronanmcaffrey on Saturday 20 March 10 23:40 GMT (UK)
Hi Folks, My granddad was John, Sean, Jack Caffrey. If anyone is interested I have quite a bit of information on his activities in the Independence and civil wars.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: seanod on Sunday 21 March 10 12:06 GMT (UK)
Hi, my grandfathers uncle was Joe Leonard and he has quite a bit of info about him if anyone wants some of it for a project or anything?

Hi Simokav, I just came across your message about Joe Leonard. I am doing some research on the Custom House burning and I am interested in Joe Leonard and another man called Nicholas Leonard. I'm not sure where they came from or if there was any connection between them. Where was Joe Leonard born?
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: ronanmcaffrey on Monday 22 March 10 08:27 GMT (UK)
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Mayo/Ballina_Urban/Knox_Street/699868/

have  a look at this census return.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: seanod on Friday 02 April 10 14:13 BST (UK)
That's great! Thanks a lot. So there is obviously no connection with this Nicholas Leonard.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Thursday 10 June 10 21:48 BST (UK)
I was looking at Joe Leonard and his involvement in Bloody Sunday.

We seem to have lost simokav  :( who is related

Joe Leonard appears to have been on of the two main men in the group who went to and shot Capt William Frederick Newberry at 92 Lower Baggot St

Around 12 men in the group and it appears Joe Leonard and William Stapleton did the shooting. Has anyone any details of any other men in that group
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: Gary Deering on Friday 11 June 10 04:53 BST (UK)
Hi Corisande, I have an interest in Joe Leonards part on Bloody Sunday,As Joe O Connell reckons Joe Leonard may have mentioned Johnny Wilson in his statement, another link was Bill Stapleton was Johnnys Wilsons best friend all his life, both men even worked together years later.Johnny is listed as a member of the Squad so I reckon if there was only one action he took part in it would have had to have been Bloody Sunday.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Friday 11 June 10 10:06 BST (UK)
Gary

It is always difficult to draw together bits of different threads. So to get John Wilson details together can you put up here what you know about his involvement in the Squad - we know that his name was on the list of members. (If you have a lot, more than you think the Forum will take, could you PM it too me)

It is reasonable to assume that he had a role on Bloody Sunday - they needed over 200 men altogether. They raided at least 15 addresses and each of these groups (each of about 15 men) had usually 2 men from "The Squad", and there were about 24 men on the central Squad list at that time, including John Wilson. You can see that basic maths implies that he ought to have been involved as one of the pairs of Squad men allocated to each group.

The fact that his name does not come up on searches would in turn imply that he was involved in one of the groups that either made a mistake, or found nobody at home.

As you live in Dublin I am curious to know why you have not been round yourself to read Bill Stapleton's witness statement (presumably John Wilson did not make one). Yo would at least see whether Stapleton mentioned John Wilson and what role he may have had in Bloody Sunday
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: Gary Deering on Friday 11 June 10 16:12 BST (UK)
Hi Corisande,The Problem we have with John Wilson is,In 1924 he left the Army as a Captain,he got a pension (his daughter has applied for application form).He ever spoke about the IRA or later the Civil War.He did not join any organisation blueshirts old IRA groups 26 Batt nothing.All we have to go on is family stories passed on from his brother my granfather .I think he just wanted to forget the whole thing,so he left a cold trail,but we think he may have been involved from family stories in the bakery raid in Nth King St.I am going to have a look at the statements in the future but at the moment I just cant find the time as I am doing a lot of work for my Father on his Brother & Uncle`s army careers & chasing my other Granfathers records & Medal for my mother ! also restoring 2 motorcycles & working 5 nights a week!
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: Mick_Dolan86 on Friday 11 June 10 18:04 BST (UK)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ILH%2Bgr4TL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Squad-Intelligence-Operations-Michael-Collins/dp/1856354695/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276275679&sr=1-1
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: tommobecket on Monday 19 July 10 16:32 BST (UK)
After waxing lyrical about this site to a group of friends amazingly discovered that one of them also had a grandfather active in the Irish WOI although doubtful if it was with the Squad. I said I'd ask on the site if anyone might have any information regarding Gabriel Byrne who, my friend was told, also did some driving for Dev following the war?! Many thanks
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Sunday 05 September 10 11:16 BST (UK)
Hello, 1st time on site but an avid researcher, my grandfather, Commandant Michael Duffy and his brother, Commandant Thomas Duffy were both involved in the execution of British Intelligence Officers in Upper Mount Street,21st November 1920, they were not members of the Squad but were both members of E. Co. 2nd Battallion, Dublin Brigade, Thomas made a witness statement, no 1409 to the Bureau of Military History.
I am looking for information on other members of E.Co.2nd Batt and Mr Jack Scally of no 10 Commons Street and the Isle of Man Shipping Company, Jack is mentioned in my great uncles witness statement.
Good luck
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Sunday 05 September 10 11:50 BST (UK)
Hi "capel street man" and welcome to Rootschat

I have some research on Upper Mount Street operation here
http://www.cairogang.com/addresses/mount-st-upper/upper-mount-st.html

I did not realise that both Tom and Michael were on that operation, so I have added Michael to the group

Can you add anything on your grandfather's part, or correct or add to what I have there. (I have very little on the men themselves as I have not really got stuck in to researching them, and just add notes as I go along)

I have not read Tom Duffy's witness statement, do you have a copy?
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Monday 06 September 10 01:21 BST (UK)
Good evening Corisande, my grandfather was not at upper mount street dirctly but was involved in organising the new team, please change your records.W.S.1409, QUOTE
On Saturday night,20th November 1920, I was detailed by my brother, Lieutenant M.Duffy,to be at Westland Row at 8.30 a,m on the following morning,Sunday 21st November 1920.Armed with a revolver and 12 rounds of .45 ammunition, I joined a party of about eight Volunteers- members of E.Company,2nd Battalion, Dublin Brigade.We were instructed to proceed to a house at Upper Mount Street and, on arriving, Commandant T. Ennis directed us to enter. One man, Volunteer Michael Lawless, took up duty on the steps outside the front door. Three men were detaled to remain in the hall, three other men wet to the front room.
Commandant Ennis told me to follow him.We proceeded to a return room at the back of the houser, which we entered,and I was ordered to cover with my revolver a young man who was in bed. Commandant T. Ennis questioned the man and asked him who he was.He replied-I am a Brtish Officer. When asked if he was armed he said NO. Commandant Ennis then put his hand under the pillow on the bed and took out a.445 Colt Automatic fully loaded and a pouch containing about 50 rounds of ammunition.He put the pistol in his pocket and gave the pouch ot ammunition to me.Two Volunteers then brought the other British Intelligence officer to the return room and the two I.O,s were placed standing upon the bed and executed.
The Volunteer who was on duty outside the house captured a British soldier in uniform, with a motor cycle,and brought him the soldier into the house where he was questioned and locked into a room.This soldier later swore at the trial of Volunteer Moran, that Moran was the the man who made him a prisoner.Volunteer P.Moran was not in Upper Mount Street that morning.
As all our section lived on the north side of the city we made directly to the south quays and commandered a rowing boat normally used for running ropes from ships to the quay wall. The boat was equipped with oars and rowlocks.We rowed the boat across the river to the ferry steps at Commans Street, where an old friend-Mr.J Scally of no.10 Commons Street, and the Silloth and Isle of Man Shipping Company, helped us by rowing the boat back to its normal mooring at the South Quay, and we walked back home via Butt Bridge.
I was later informed that Commandant T.Ennis should not have been in Mount Street on 21st November 1920. Officially, Commandant V.Byrne was in charge of this operation, -unquote.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Monday 06 September 10 07:22 BST (UK)
Thanks for that, I have altered my text on that address to its original without your grandfather.

Interesting Tom's remarks about Tom Ennis not being meant to be there, Certainly Vinny Byrne's witness statement shows no doubts that Vinny ws in charge.

So there is still doubt about how many men were actually involved, it may be that I have the entire party named.

The new book on Moran is out in 2 weeks - he was in charge of the operation at the Gresham Hotel
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Tuesday 07 September 10 09:48 BST (UK)
Good morning Corisande, you have done some great work on your site, do you have a relative who was invovled ?
I have a copy of Michael Joseph Lawless, Witness Statement no. 727. It goes into greater detail and gives a different insight into the operation. Some of the facts have been corrected, notably by Michael Noyk, who was an official Solicitor and adviser to Michael Collins and the I.R.A. Michael Noyk also defended P. Moran.
Good luck
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Tuesday 07 September 10 11:57 BST (UK)
I am going to have to "do" the witness statements sometime.

I see they can either be viewed with appointment at Military Archives, or at National Archives. Any views on which of those is better - I would find the Nat Archives more convenient

Can one photograph/copy them (I assume that they ate not avalable on CD or book form)
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Tuesday 07 September 10 15:49 BST (UK)
The origin of the Witness Statements for those that do not know.
The Bureau of Military History was formed in 1947 to assemble and co-ordinate material to form the basis for the compilation of the history of the movement for Independence from the formation of the Irish Volunteers on the 25th November 1913 to 11th July 1921.
The Bureau gathered material from both leaders and rank and file members of the Independence movement and other witnesses, including next of kin of some of the 1916 leaders and members of the British Security Forces.
Witnesses were interviewed by specially trained people and officers of the Bureau, statements were taken, sometimes several drafts were made and finally an agreed statement was drawn up,logged in and given a registration number.
A total of 1,773 statements were taken , varying in length from 2 pages to 1,200 pages. The majority were in the region of 20-70 pages.
I would recommend the National Archives, you can get copies of the smaller W.S. on the same day, larger ones you can order for a fee and they will post to you.

You are only allowed 3 W.S. at a time, I have spent many a day looking through the statements trying to look for connections to E.C. 2nd Battalion
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Tuesday 07 September 10 16:17 BST (UK)
Thanks for that - Nat Archives it is then for me.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: Gary Deering on Wednesday 08 September 10 01:03 BST (UK)
Capel St man, I know this is a long shot but have you ever come across the name Johnny Wilson in the statments you have read? He was my great uncle & I am trying to work out the link to him & The Squad.I have heard he was mentioned in a withness statement, I have a gut feeling it was Bill Stapletons, I have had to knock 90 per cent of my research on the head due to a family illness & commitments at the moment.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Wednesday 08 September 10 10:08 BST (UK)
Good morning Gary, this may be of interest to you.W.S.no 477 Edward J.Kelliher of C.Co.3rd Batt.Dublin Brigade, subject-a) G.H.Q.Intelligence Section 1920
b) The Active Service Unit 1921
Quote pages 11 & 12 The Igoe Gang
Previous to the half- way house job we had, on numerous occasions on information supplied in conjunction with the Squad, gone to different places to get the Igoe Murder Gang.On one occasion towards evening in or about 4o,clock, returning from one of these chases, Jonnie Wilson of the Squad and myself, having dumped our guns in the Strand Street dump, were walking up along the Quays towards O,Connell Street Bridge when behind us we got an order to keep going the way we were, not to move our heads or make a move in any direction and, turning round we discovered Igoe and his bunch immediately behind us -un-quote, it goes into further detail.
I hope this is the relative you are looking for.
Good luck
Capel Street man
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: Gary Deering on Wednesday 08 September 10 15:53 BST (UK)
 Thank you thats fantastic, I will get in touch with the national archives about a copy of the statement again thank you.Gary

I just have to add this, what happend next??? its like a film only with a relation in it ! did they bluff there way out of it ? or where they taken in??
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Wednesday 08 September 10 21:53 BST (UK)
Wait until you go to the N.A. it will give you something to look forward to, its an interesting story.
If you haven't been before, you have to register and take some form of identification e.g. passport etc
The W.S. NO.477 by Edward Keliher is about 17 pages long.
I have been researching the W.S. for many years looking for information on my family and the operations they were involved in, sometimes I would find nothing but then I would come across a W.S.from somebody else who had been on the same operation or in the same battallion and it would help to give me a better understanding and picture of what went on, when you do come across something its a great feeling but you have to be patient and keep at the research.
I found my grandfathers pension application the most rewarding and informative, It took me about 2 years of constantly writing but eventually I was given 2 days at Cathal Brugha Barracks, where I was told my grandfathers records had survived and I came across a handwritten letter by my grandfather in which he listed the operations he was involved in and the references of names to confirm what he had done, it was absolutely fascinating, not even my father or uncle knew a quarter of what he and his brothers had been involved in, so happy hunting and good luck
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Wednesday 08 September 10 23:07 BST (UK)
Gary, correction to the W.Statement reference I gave you earlier, the information on your relative is in
W.S.N0 536 BY JAMES HARPUR , not in W.S.NO.477 by Edward Kelliher as PREVIOUSLY STATED,sorry for any confusion, let me know what you think when you have had a chance to read or copy it.
The 2 w.s. are together in my files, hence the mistake.
Good luck
Capel Street man
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: Gary Deering on Thursday 09 September 10 04:54 BST (UK)
Thanks Capel Street Man,I will ring the Archives later as its 5am at the moment (just finished a night shift) Can I copy the withness statement ? As I would like a copy for Johnnys daughter, she has already applied to Renmore for the pension application & Cathal Brugha for his army records.The problem I have at the moment is time as my father has been thru a bad illness for the last 7 weeks, So I will have to wait for him to return to health before I can get down for a read.If I can pay for a copy of the statement & have it posted to me that would be the best thing for the moment.
Gary
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Thursday 09 September 10 12:12 BST (UK)
Morning Gary, as I posted before, you or a relative will have to register at the N.Archives, then you will be able to order a copy, they are most helpfull.
I live in the U.K. so it would make sense and be a lot cheaper for you or someone on your behalf to register, also ,when you have the time, just think of the research you could carry out at the Archives, it really is straight forward after the first visit,you can contact them on-4072-300 and explain the situation  about your father, I am sure they will be sympathetic.
Good luck
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: Gary Deering on Thursday 09 September 10 16:35 BST (UK)
Thanks again Capel Street Man I am going to try & get down to the Archives even for an hour on Tuesday. Gary
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Friday 10 September 10 13:58 BST (UK)
Good afternoon Corisande, thought you might be interested in the following names taken from W.S.No.727 by Michael Joseph Lawless, member of E.Co.2nd Battalion, Dublin Brigade.
QUOTE-
As regards the operations of Bloody Sunday 21st.Nov.1920,I was ordered to report at the Painters Hall, Gloucester Street, ( as it was then ) on the Saturday night 20-11-20 by my Company Officer, B.Byrne. There I met a few other men and we received orders from somebody of G.H.Q( I cannot remember whom ).The orders were to be at Dunlop House, afterwards Oriel House ( corner of Westland Row and Merrion Row ) on the following Sunday morning at 9 o,clock. Myself and Johnny McDonnell ( brother of Paddy McDonnell, very well known G.A.A.footballer of the period- St.Laurence O,Toole Club ) and Willie Maher, as we lived near one another, arrived there together and met there Herbert Conroy and Sean Daly ( London Irish-Kimmage pre 16- later E.Company 2nd Battalion brother of Liam Daly of Old Dublin Brigade Association ).Tom Ennis then arrived. We were all Ecompany members.Ennis was in charge. He told us what the job was........-UN-QUOTE, it then goes into further detail and very interesting it is. My comment, Corisande you did not answer an earlier question of mine, did you have a relative involved in this particular operation or are you just interested.
As far as I am aware only 3 people who were at 38 Upper Mount Street, made W.S.-Vinny Byrne, Thomas Duffy and Michael .J.Lawless, the other information would come from the pension applications made by the Volunteers who were there and eye witness accounts
Good Luck
Capel Street man.










 
 
 
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Friday 10 September 10 14:31 BST (UK)
Quote
Corisande you did not answer an earlier question of mine, did you have a relative involved in this particular operation or are you just interested

Sorry, I was not avoiding your question. I have answered the same question many times on the forum, just missed your specific one there!

The answer is yes, but not in the way that you might think.

 J J Fitzgerald (link for my page on him)  (http://www.grantonline.com/grant-family-individuals/grant-charles-1881/1916-easter-rising/john-fitzgerald/john-fitzgerald.htm) was shot on Bloody Sunday. The squad probably killed the wrong man - very unusually nobody has ever claimed to have been on this raid, nor indeed was Fitzgerald an undercover man). So who were they after. I have no idea, but my grandfather lived in a flat two doors away. My grandfather was in Royal Dublin Fusiliers, had been involved in the Easter Rising with them, and later was a civil servant in Custom House when it was set on fire. His roles have been covered on this forum in threads covering those events.

Anyway my grandfather was sufficiently spooked to decide to leave Dublin. He moved to Belfast, which is where i was brought up. We were never taught any Irish history. I suppose akin to southern schools not teaching your civil war. So I became self taught. I started of with  my grandfather's life  (http://www.grantonline.com/grant-family-individuals/grant-charles-1881/CW-Grant.htm), then went on to research  the Royal Dublin Fusiliers  (http://www.dublin-fusiliers.com/), the Irish Brigade  (http://www.irishbrigade.eu/) and the Cairo Gang  (http://www.cairogang.com/) - I probably know more about the last two than anyone on the planet, if anyone on the planet could possibly want to know about them.

I have a personal interest, and I am wanting to write it down, I hope in a non partisan way, before it all gets lost. So there you have it!
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Friday 10 September 10 15:09 BST (UK)
Thanks for that Lawless WS, that was very useful to me with names

I believe that Frank Saurin was the Intelligence man at Upper Mount St and has a WS 715. As you know I have not read the WSs yet, but that is from the index

Frank Saurin claimed he did the talking at the front door, not Byrne, at Upper Mount St. He was a Dubliner, known as the best-dressed Volunteer

With your interest in Upper Mount St it may be worth your while looking at that WS
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Saturday 11 September 10 19:02 BST (UK)
Thank you Corisande for answering my question, the subject obviously means a lot to you and the information you have on your grandfather, (I looked at the links), are fascinating and well researched and documented.You are coming from a totally different viewpoint and it is very refreshing and as you rightly say, from an un-bias outlook.I wish you well with your book and if I can be of any help at all, please feel free to ask.
I will check out Frank Saurins W.S.
Good luck
Capel Street man
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Sunday 12 September 10 14:37 BST (UK)
Good afternoon Gary, came across the following -W.S.NO.667 Patrick Lawson,2nd Lieut.1st Batt.Dublin Brigade, 1917- Member of the Squad, Dublin,1921.
Pages 10 & 11
QUOTE-Ambush at Crossguns Bridge
A short time after my release from Arbour Hill ( he was arrested 23rd November 1920, unknown when he was released ) an ambush was arranged by the company to take place in the vicinity of Crossguns Bridge.........
About 2o minutes after taking up our allotted positions, the first Crossley-load of Black and Tans approached us from Doyles Corner. As they came abreast of Connaught St. I stepped out on the road and let fly my bomb. The bomb struck one of the Tans in the Crossley but did not explode, it fell on to the roadway.I fired a second bomb which I had in my possession and it landed in front of the radiator of the car.The 2nd bomb also failed to explode.....In accordance with my instructions I withdrew from my position.Two Volunteers,Owen Donnelly and JOHNNY WILLIAMS.picked up the unexploded grenades and dumped them in the canal- UN-QUOTE.
Good luck
Capel Street man

c
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: Gary Deering on Tuesday 14 September 10 19:03 BST (UK)
Hi Capel Street Man, I got in to the Archives today I was very tight on time, so I just Got Bill Stapletons & James Harpurs WS, I have a very quick read of Stapletons which I have to say was really good the few pages I read.I also got the Igoe Gang story & the Custom House Burning from Harpurs copied.Thank you again I will scan & email it later around the family.
Gary
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Wednesday 15 September 10 08:33 BST (UK)
Good morning Gary, delighted you managed to go to the N.Archives and get Harpers W.S. copied, it makes fascinating reading, I am new to the site but I gather from your posts you have been searching for information on your relative, Johnnie Wilson for some time, if Jonnie and James hadn't stuck to their story, who knows what could have happened to them !!
Good luck and keep up the research
Capel Street man
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Wednesday 15 September 10 09:33 BST (UK)
Gary

I am interested in Bill Stapleton's WS, he was involved in 92 Lower Baggot St on Bloody Sunday

Do you have any detail on what he says about Bloody Sunday?
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: Gary Deering on Wednesday 15 September 10 13:38 BST (UK)
Hi Corisande I am sorry I only glanced at Bill Stapletons,but its a very well read statement judging by the condition of it, someone here must have a copy.I will get back in another month or two & have a look at the bloody sunday section.Gary
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: Joy Dean on Wednesday 29 September 10 14:56 BST (UK)
If anyone can get to Clonakilty, the heritage centre there is very interesting -
http://www.michaelcollinscentre.com/
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: lanigangenealogy on Monday 11 October 10 23:06 BST (UK)
Regarding Ed Byrne or Eddie Byrne

Edward J Byrne (1st cousin of my grandmother) was born in 1900 in New York though his parents returned to Ireland very soon after his birth, he died "sudden" on 14 Jan 1922 in Boydke, County Clare. He is buried in the Republican Plot in Glasnevin Cemetery (shares burrial plot with Peadar Clancy & Richard McKee shot Bloody Sunday - 21 Nov 1920).

Freemans Journal, 17 Jan 1922:-
Fought in GPO at Age of Fifteen
"Amid many manifestations of sorrow, the funeral took place yesterday to Glasnevin Cemetery of Lieut. Edward Byrne (21), of the Guards Company of the IRA, Dublin.
Deceased who was a late member of "B" Company, 2nd Battalion, Dublin Brigade, belonged to Bodyke, Co. Clare where his death took place. As a soldier he had a remarkably record for bravery and good service. At age of 15 he fought in the GPO and was one of the reargaurd leaving with The O'Rahilly when the later was killed.
During the late war he again saw service in Dublin and took part in the capture of the armoured car and the subsequent attempt to enter Mountjoy Prision.
The late Lieut. Byrne was also one of the party who carried out the firing of the Custom House, escaping from it with Sean Doyle, his wounded comrade".


It goes on to describe his removal from Clare back to his home church in Fairview with officers of the 1st Western Division, 300 members of the IRA and members of his old company The Guards. The coffin was covered with the tri-color and amongst the wreaths were wreaths from Mr. Michael Collins TD, Alderman S. McGarry TD and officers of the 1st Division

"When the grave had been closed and the last prayers recited a party of volunteers in uniform advanced and fired three volleys over the remains. The last post was sounded and the the detachment of volunteers then marched past paying the last military tribute to the deceased fellow soldier and officer.


I'd post the entire newspaper cutting but i'm new to this site and do not have privileges yet. I believe my ancestor Edward was the Ed Byrne alluded to in the references to Collins Squad and would love to hear from anyone who can share more info from documents they have seen or research they have done.

Thanks in advance
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: lanigangenealogy on Monday 11 October 10 23:33 BST (UK)
Hey I can post attachments now so here's the newspaper article in full:-

Moderator comment: image removed.  Full articles may not be re-published in this way.  Please see the here:

http://www.irishnewsarchive.com/termsofuse.php
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Tuesday 12 October 10 08:33 BST (UK)
Welcome to Rootschat and thanks for putting that up (takes some people a lifetime to master posting attachments)

Just to point this out, and it is confusing, there is both a Edward J Byrne and a Edmund Leo Byrne involved with The Squad. For Edmund Leo Byrne see an earlier post here by Alan8hughes .

I say this out of no deep knowledge of the Byrnes, but because I am (still) trying to see who was where on Bloody Sunday, 21 Nov 1920. I know of course what Vinnie Byrne was doing, but can anyone fill in if the movements of Edmund and Edward are known that day, and were they both known to have been in the Squad

Thought I had come across the name recently. See this thread about the shooting of Ryan in a Dublin pub http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,487706.15.html

 This link is to the details of the shooting  (http://www.cairogang.com/other-people/british/castle-intelligence/thomson/ryan/ryan.html) that I have and one of the men was "Eddie Byrne", but which Eddie
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Tuesday 12 October 10 11:42 BST (UK)
w.s.631 Bernard .C.Byrne, along with his two brothers, Joseph and Charley, were members of D.Company,1st.Batt. of the Dublin Brigade.Bernard and Joseph were both members of the squad.
Bernard states the following in his W.S.Ref-John Ryan, British Spy, shot 5th February,1921.
The murder of Dick McKee and Peader Clancy in Dublin Castle after the Bloody Sunday shootings had been a severe blow to the volunteers generally, but to the squad it was a more personal matter, as McKee and Clancy, together with Collins, had always been our most ardent supporters. There was much speculation and keen competition in the squad as to who would have the honour of dealing with the person alleged to have been responsible for their capture.
After a long period of delay, which caused us serious misgivings,we were finally informed by Headquarters that they had located the man responsible. His name was Ryan and their information was to the effect that he could be found around mid-day practically any day drinking in a public house in Gloucester Diamond, on the opposite corner to the small church then known as the Tin Chapel.
After some slight discussion as to ways and means it was decided that Tom Keogh and myself should have a look at the premises in Gloucester Diamond with a view to seeing the general layout. We had a good description of Ryan and without further ado, we proceeded to the Gloucester Diamond. We were accompanied by Slattery.Eddie Byrne, Vincent Byrne, Frank Bolster, Jimmy Conroy,Stapleton, Leonard, Mick Kennedy and Mick Reilly.
The procedure normally followed on occasions like this was adopted, that is to say, men were posted in various positions to act  as a covering off party and we went along to the public-house where we hoped to find Ryan. The two of us entered the public-house by a door on the right hand side, called for two drinks, and proceeded to talk in general terms about nothing in particular, while at the same time giving the customers the once over.We eliminated the different people in the shop with the exception of one man who was sitting on our immediate right deeply immersed in a study of The Early Bird, a racing paper. We were unable to see his features, but believed from his general build that he was the man in whom we were interested.Keogh nudged me to make a move, and I, taking the hint, approached the man and asked him what they were tipping for some particular race, the three o,clock or the 3.30. This brought about the desired result, because he had of necessity to lower the paper.Immediately he did so we knew our search was over.Without any discussion or delay Keogh fired on him, I doing likewise.We made no delay, nor did we make any further examination of our victim, because we were perfectly satisfied from our previous experience that Ryan would betray no more members of our organisation.  un-quote.
Good luck
Capel Street Man
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Tuesday 12 October 10 12:13 BST (UK)
Thanks very much cpm, I appreciate the "good luck".

The amazing thing I find in researching any shooting is that if it is "successful" in other words get kill the right man, then everyone wants to claim they did it. If they get the wrong man, or he escapes, then nobody mentions it in their WS.

In this case of the shooting of Ryan in Hynes pub

1. Dwyer in The Squad p210 quotes statements from Paddy Kennedy and Bill Stapleton that they and Eddie Byrne (though I don't know which Eddie) shot Ryan. And that Jim Conroy was backing them up, and the "remainder of the squad" covering their retreat

2. The WS you have given me now says that Bernard Byrne claims that he and Tom Keogh did the shooting and that  their back up was Slattery, Eddie Byrne, Vincent Byrne, Frank Bolster, Jimmy Conroy, Stapleton, Leonard, Mick Kennedy and Mick Reilly.

3. The Irish Times report says 3 men did the shooting and that Ryan's brother-in-law was also in the pub and witnessed the shooting

Somebody is mistaken. Are there any other WS statements that might throw light on what happened.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Tuesday 12 October 10 15:42 BST (UK)
Here is another one for you!
W.S. 499 Patrick Kennedy, member of D.Co.2nd Batt. Dublin Brigade.
Quote- A man named John Ryan, who was residing in the vicinity of Gloucester Street, was a military policeman in Dublin Castle and was also, I believe, at one time employed as a batman to a British Military officer in the Castle, under whom he served in the British Army in India.Information reached our Intelligence that Ryan was spying on wanted men at night time.Curfew made no difference as far as he was concerned, he could be out at any time during the night. It was established that he was the man who tracked Dick McKee to a house in Gloucester Street and that he chalked, by arrangement, the door of the house in which McKee was stopping on the night he was arrested there. The idea of the chalk mark was to guide the Auxiliaries to the house in question. A couple of months after the murder of Dick McKee, instructions were given by the Director of Intelligence that the informer, John Ryan, was to be shot. This order was duly carried out. We knew that Ryan frequented a public-house adjacent to where he resided, and on a morning in February,1921,I took two squad men there, Bill Stapleton and Jimmy Conroy.Two of us entered the house in question and shot him, the third man remained outside. un-quote
I understand your frustration with the different versions but what is not in doubt is that Ryan deserved his fate, McKee and Clancy were highly respected and thought of by the Dublin Brigade and from what I understand, no stone was left unturned in the search for the  culprit, it took them from 21-11-20 to February 1921 to track down their man I know you can say he was only doing his job and he did his job well that night, he must have known what his fate would be , perhaps as is mentioned on the other posts, he did not care .
I have just returned from a visit to the N.A. in Dublin and looked at William Stapeltons W.S. I have ordered a copy to be sent in the post to me and will forward the information you are looking for on Bloody Sunday when I receive it.
Capel Street Man
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Tuesday 12 October 10 16:09 BST (UK)
Quote
he must have known what his fate would be

That is very true, and comes out time and time again with the British agents shot by the IRA.  That to me is quite incredible that they carried on knowing that they were almost certain to die. But the IRA knew that they too would die if they were caught.

With what I am doing with my research is trying to avoid a moral judgment on whether A or B deserved to die. It happened, and I am trying to see what actually did happen. A lot (most) of these events have just been ignored by history, and indeed even by the descendants of the men who took part.

What I am trying to see with Ryan is who was employing him. He undoubtedly had fingered McKee and Clancy the previous November. I suspect that it had taken so long to catch up with him was because he was being "run" by Basil Thomson out of London to avoid Dublin Castle leaks.

Ryan must also have been involved in other information being passed back to British Intelligence. That is the sort of collateral that one will just stumble across when looking at another incident altogether.

An interesting point about Ryan is that he appears to be a Dublin man, complete with a wife, sister (albeit a Madam) and a brother-in-law. Most of the spies did not come with that sort of pedigree. They were English or Irish officers living in rooms by themselves.

Thanks very much for the Paddy Kennedy quote. I look forward to Bill Stapleton's version which I believe will back up Kennedys. At that point I think I would opt for the Kennedy/Stapleton version!
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: lanigangenealogy on Tuesday 12 October 10 20:26 BST (UK)
Hey Corisande,

Thanks for the info and links to other posts - makes very interesting reading for someone like me who is new to this whole debate - I think I'll have to stop by Easons and start reading up on some of the books covering this period.

In the fullness of research I'm including here the documentation from Glasnevin Cemetery and photo of the headstone from Glasnevin also. I shall order Edward Byrne's Death cert to determine how he died "sudden" in County Clare and maybe shed some light on what he was doing there in Jan 1922.

Moderator comment: Glasnevin Trust search results removed.  Please check the terms and conditions of their site:
http://www.glasnevintrust.ie/terms/
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: Ms. Smokestoomuch on Tuesday 12 October 10 21:17 BST (UK)
Hi
A bit outta touch but still following.
Last night RTE aired a programme called CSÍ: Murder in Little Jerusalem.
Very interesting. It seems Conroy was thought to be one of the main suspect in attacks on Jewish men in 1923.

http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1082417

Also Ryan who informed on McKee on the eve of Bloody Sunday, well I read somewhere his name was given to McKee himself as being a suspected informer. This was  in Sept. before McKee was killed. Mckee was said to have not thought there was enough evidence against Ryan and didn't sanction action against Ryan.
What luck if that is true.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Tuesday 12 October 10 21:22 BST (UK)
Quote
It seems Conroy was thought to be one of the main suspect in attacks on Jewish men in 1923. 

The cheapskates in RTE will not let me view that from Spain  >:(

Can you amplify what it says about Conroy for me
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Tuesday 12 October 10 21:31 BST (UK)
Quote
In the fullness of research I'm including here the documentation from Glasnevin Cemetery and photo of the headstone from Glasnevin also. I shall order Edward Byrne's Death cert to determine how he died "sudden" in County Clare and maybe shed some light on what he was doing there in Jan 1922.

1. You want to check the Irish papers for that date - there is nothing in London Times

2. I cannot imagine that it is an accident that he is buried with Clancy and McKee

3. I cannot imagine that he died of old age.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: lanigangenealogy on Tuesday 12 October 10 22:56 BST (UK)
Quote
1. You want to check the Irish papers for that date - there is nothing in London Times

2. I cannot imagine that it is an accident that he is buried with Clancy and McKee

3. I cannot imagine that he died of old age.


1. I also cannot find anything in the Freemans Journal or Irish Independent for county Clare that time period.

2. It is no accident as Edwards mother died just over a year previous (1 Dec 1920) and is buried in Glasnevin - he could have been buried with her.

3. Not old age as he was just 21 years old.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: Ms. Smokestoomuch on Tuesday 12 October 10 23:32 BST (UK)
Here's a few notes from the Programme on the Little Jerusalem Killings. Summarised believe it or not.

Oct 31st 1923 Bernard and brother Samuel Goldberg were attacked at 95 Stephens Green
3 men approached. Samuel was attacked but managed to run and shots were fired. His brother was killed.
The National Army was said to have been seen in the area but wearing non uniform caps.
November 14th there was an attack on Emanuel Kahan and David Miller on Stamer Street. Emanuel Kahan was killed.
Police than started to suspect Ralph Laffan and James conroy as present at one of the killings. Ralph Laffan was arrested and he claimed Conroy and Laffan's brother Fredrick were involved and that Ralph was only giving them a lift
Conroy and Fredrick Laffan manage to have time to flee to Tampico Mexico.
March 1925 due to insufficient evidence Ralph Laffan was found not guilty. He was released on bail, fled to join the others in Mexico.
David Neligan was Chief Superintendent in charge of the investigation. (Ralph Laffan had asked to make his statement to him)
He pretended to not know Conroy and Laffan well as old comrades. But It seems he was likely to have been the reason they had time to flee.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: Ms. Smokestoomuch on Tuesday 12 October 10 23:46 BST (UK)
I should clear up
Ralph Laffan was released on bail for the other killing.

Also despite David Neligan's best efforts, Conroy was refused a pension when he returned in 1932.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Wednesday 13 October 10 08:04 BST (UK)
Thanks MsS. The only other question I have is that there appear to be 2 Conroys in the Squad

James/Jimmy Conroy - Ryan shooting
Herbert/Herbie Conroy - Upper Mount St on Bloody Sunday

Were these two related ?
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Wednesday 13 October 10 08:19 BST (UK)
Quote
Not old age as he was just 21 years old. 

Back to Edward Byrne, sorry was my irony, I knew he was 21 from what you had already written. On suspects he died from what the Americans call "lead poisoning"

1. Was there any family relation between Edward and Edmund Byrne, as my earlier question - I suspect not as nobody has offered an opinion.

2. Do you know the background to Clancy and McKee. The implication is that Byrne was in some way connected to them, possibly via the Bloody Sunday events. In a way I am surprised that nobody has already researched any connection because of the grave. It would be worth your while asking in NLI or local library. There is a lot more to Byrne's death than meets the eye.
On reflection, cut out the middleman and phone the local history dept in Clare County Library, the local history sections of county libraries are (usually) very knowledgeable and helpful.

3. Re papers is there anything in Irish Times. The whole thing is very "coy" in the press. That article from the Freeman's Journal fails to mention why or how he died. In a way typical of the press coverage of similar events at that time. If a man was killed by the British there were full details given (OK I know this was 1922)

4. Have you applied for his army/pension record. Those who know more about Irish bureaucracy than I, can fill you in on what might be available.

5. You may get a bit of the answer when csm has Bill Stapleton's Witness Statement. Dwyer in The Squad over the shooting of Ryan quotes Stapleton as saying "the second man instructed to accompany me was Eddie Byrne" Now Ryan had been responsible for the British finding McKee and Clancy, and there would seem to be the clue as to why Byrne was buried with those two. You need more on the raid the British made to pick up McKeee and Clancy. Who else had gone to the place where were captured - Sean Fitzpatrick's house at 36 Gloucester Street - that night
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: Ms. Smokestoomuch on Wednesday 13 October 10 12:06 BST (UK)
Sorry I've no idea if there is a family tie between the Conroys. Just two Herberts in the country in 1911.

Quote
You need more on the raid the British made to pick up McKee and Clancy. Who else had gone to the place where were captured - Sean Fitzpatrick's house at 36 Gloucester Street - that night
Of course the propaganda with the whole story comes from all sides and makes you think twice about all sorts.
I know little but it seems the premises was McKee and Clancy's digs. Though McKee's mother's house was raided the Wednesday after and they withdrew when she told them he had been killed in Dublin Castle.
The night of their arrest Dublin Castle was said to be very crowded with others arrested. ( I wonder did it affect the next mornings activies)
Sean Fitzpatrick I don't know much about but Castle report said originally that they found a box of cartridges, two uniform of a British Colonel, an automatic bell target and a device which might be used for exploding guncotton. The papers by Nov 25 were now saying there was only one uniform and Fitzpatrick had produced a receipt for it during the raid. The box of ammo was a box of candles.
And they also start to discredit the Castle's version of events on Clune being IRA Lieut. of 1st Batt Clare.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: lanigangenealogy on Friday 15 October 10 00:24 BST (UK)
Quote
2. Do you know the background to Clancy and McKee. The implication is that Byrne was in some way connected to them, possibly via the Bloody Sunday events. In a way I am surprised that nobody has already researched any connection because of the grave. It would be worth your while asking in NLI or local library. There is a lot more to Byrne's death than meets the eye.

I came across a snippet online on google books referencing Eamonn De Valera meeting a deputation in county Clare after a rally. It was from the book "Eamon de Valera and the Banner County / Kevin J. Browne 1982". Anyway the deputation included Hugh Hehir, James Slattery and Ed Byrne of the Dublin Brigade (page 126) but I cant view the rest of the passage to get the date, location etc. I will have to get a look at the book in library somewhere. Apparently James Slattery was from Bodke, County Clare where Edward Byrne died.

Quote
4. Have you applied for his army/pension record. Those who know more about Irish bureaucracy than I, can fill you in on what might be available.

Yes, I spoke to someone in Renmore, Galway but got the usual "apply in writing and we will process it but it can take anything up to a year".
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Friday 15 October 10 18:12 BST (UK)
Ms.Smoketoomuch, I have a copy of the original raid and search report made by Capt.W.L.King on 36 Gloucester Street Lower, I sent Corisande the details.
Briefly, date of search-21-11-20  time-01.30
Name of householder in full, place of birth and occupation- J.Fitzpatrick, Dublin, Auctioneers Assistant
Names of all other persons found on premises searched, together with place of birth and permanent residence and occupations.
R.McKee - Dublin - Compositor.
B.Clancy - Dublin - Draper  ( unemployed )
J.Fitzpatrick -Dublin - Auctioneers Assistant
It goes into great detail of every item found, chillingly written across the top of the first page - First two prisoners shot in Coy.Guard Room  22-11-20 attempting to escape.
I came across  a box of documents- Raid and Search Reports, Dublin, 1920,21 quite by chance while I was carrying out research in Kew Record Office in  London
Regards csm

Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Friday 15 October 10 18:50 BST (UK)
What we know is that these three were arrested at Fitzpatrick's house at  36 Lower Gloucester St  (http://www.cairogang.com/other-people/british/castle-intelligence/incidents/clancy-mckee/clancy-mckee.html)

R.McKee - Dublin - Compositor.
B.Clancy - Dublin - Draper  ( unemployed )
J.Fitzpatrick -Dublin - Auctioneers Assistant

What we do not know (yet) is whether anyone else escaped from the house before being caught.

Or putting it a different way - where was Edward Byrne that night
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Friday 15 October 10 20:48 BST (UK)
I have now received copies of Frank Saurin,s , William James Stapleton and Frank Thornton,s W.S.
W.Stapleton W.S. 822 Member of B.Co.2nd Batt. Dublin Brigade quote-
Bloody Sunday
On the Friday prior to Bloody Sunday my Company Captain,Tommy Kilkoyne, instructed me to report armed at Baggot St. Bridge on the following Sunday morning at, I believe, half past eight, and there I would meet Joe Leonard in charge of a party consisting of five members of my Company, including Jack Stafford, Eugo MacNeill, who was somehow attached to our Company and two or three others.I understood from Tommy Kilcoyne that on this particular Sunday a general effort was to be made in various parts of the city to liquidate members of the B. I.Service who resided in private houses and hotels throughout the city. I reported as instructed, and our party moved down to 92 Lower Baggot St., where the British agent we were interested in was residing. We knocked at the hall door, which was opened by somebody from upstairs, and entered. Our information was that this British agent occupied the ground floor flat, which consisted of the back and front parlours. We knocked at the door of the front parlour, and, receiving no reply, knocked at the back parlour door.After some hammering on the door it was opened a little.It was evident that the occupant of the room was very cautious and suspicious because he tried to close the door again, but we jammed our feet in it.We fired some shots through the door and burst our way in .The two rooms were connected by folding doors and the British agent ran into the front room and endeavoured to barricade the door, but some of our party had broken in the door of the front room and we all went into it. He was in his pyjamas, and as he was attempting to escape by the window, he was shot a number of times.One of our party on guard outside fired on him from outside. The mans wife was standing in a corner of the room and was in a terrified and hysterical condition.-un-quote
If you require any further information from the above 3 W.S. let me know
Regards
C.S.M.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Friday 15 October 10 21:57 BST (UK)
Thanks for the extra CPM

It is one big jigsaw that can only really be put together by a mix of published material like this and family information that suddenly appears out of the blue in places like this

It has amazed me in researching Casement's Irish Brigade how I have managed to unearth a number of personal memoirs which had been sitting unpublished in homes all over the place

I am sure that there are similar memoirs with Bloody Sunday that did not get to Witness Statements, but will eventually emerge

Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Saturday 16 October 10 12:07 BST (UK)
Good morning Corisande, thought you mind find this of interest regarding Mr. Hardy, it is taken from a w.s. made by Joseph Dolan- W.S. 663 member of A. Co. 1st. Batt. Dublin Brigade ,G.H.Q. Intelligence  quote-
We were looking for a B.I.Officer named Hardy for months.He had an artificial leg and was very vicious.
McNamara gave us information that Hardy was going to England on leave, but did not know whether he would have a heavy escort to Dun Laoghaire. I located Hardy on the mail boat. I was better dressed than he was and I was travelling first class. I tracked Hardy all the way to London, but when we arrived there he disappeared in a taxi.I did not know what date Hardy would be returning to Ireland, but I was to watch for him at Euston Station and wire to Vaughn's Hotel in Dublin as soon as I found out the date of his return. I was to put on the wire, ( Josephine travelling ).
Eventually when Hardy did travel I sent the wire to Vaughn's Hotel. They got the wire all right and sent out a party next morning to deal with him.Through some hitch, I think the car broke down, the party did not reach their destination and Hardy got away. He was never got. un-quote.
No matter what one might think of Hardy, he was definitely top of his game and always one step ahead of the I.R.A.. I have read his book-I Escape, he had seen it all, been through hell and high water in the 1st World War, lost a leg, been wounded, seen death and destruction on a regular basis and volunteered ,to go to Ireland. It is written that he was vicious but you have to be hard in that proffession, it is you or the  enemy and according to your site Corisande , he lived to a good age , you have to give respect to the man.
C.S.M.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Saturday 16 October 10 12:20 BST (UK)
Corisande, in reply to one of your previous queries
Jim Conroy was a member of the Squad.
Herby Conroy was a member of E.Co. 2nd Batt. Dublin Brigade
I do not know if they were related, a check of the Census should give you the answer.
C.S.M.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Saturday 16 October 10 13:16 BST (UK)
CPM

Thanks for the stuff on Hardy - I have added it to my page on Hardy (http://www.cairogang.com/escaped/hardy/hardy.html) - Hardy was a very complex man who died a natural death in 1958 as a rich man (I do not imply anything here other than he was rich).

As I said, what I am doing is adding little bits to try to get he whole. I am always grateful for any additions.  :)
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Saturday 16 October 10 13:30 BST (UK)
Information on John Ryan, taken from William James Stapeltons W.S. 822   QUOTE-
John Ryan and the murder of McKee, Clancy and Clune.
John Ryan was a British military policeman and was a brother of Mrs Becky Cooper of Corporation Street who ran a shebeen ( a place where alcoholic drink is sold illegally, my note.), which was a favourite haunt of many of the British- Tans, Auxiliaries and Army. It was known through G.H.Q.Intelligence that Ryan was responsible for the arrest and subsequent murder of Dick McKee, Peader Clancy and Clune who, by the way, were in hiding from the enemy in the vicinity of the Gloucester Diamond very near to Becky Coopers place. The squad were told off to have this man executed and as usual an Intelligence Officer was appointed to identify him. In this case it was Paddy Kennedy. Before the two men were detailed to carry out the execution, I asked to be allowed to take part in it as I felt very keenly about the murder of Dick McKee who was a great friend of mine with whom I fought in 1916 and served subsequently with him in the 2nd Battalion. My request was granted and the second man instructed to accompany me was Eddie Byrne, now deceased.About 10.30 o,clock on the morning of the 5th February, 1921, our Intelligence Officer located Ryan in Hynes public house at the corner of Old Gloucester Place and Corporation St. We entered the public house with the Intelligence Officer and I saw Ryan standing facing the counter reading a newspaper and he was identified by the I.O. Before doing the job we held him up and searched him but he had no guns or papers on him. I think we said , You are Ryan, and I think he rejoined, Yes, and what about it, or words to that effect. With that we shot him. I have an idea that the chap behind the counter was one of our I.O.,s contacts as he made himself very scarce when we entered. We left the place then and proceeded towards the Gloucester Diamond and as usual the remainder of the Squad were following up to cover our retreat. We went back to the Squad dump which was in a stable off North Great Charles St. near Mountjoy Square and that concluded the operation as far as we were concerned. UN-QUOTE.
C.S.M.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Saturday 16 October 10 13:44 BST (UK)
CPM

You are faster than I am

I will answer the Conroy question first. Certainly Michael Lawless WS refers to Herbert Conroy at 38 Upper Mount Street

My page on  38 Upper Mount Street  (http://www.cairogang.com/addresses/mount-st-upper/upper-mount-st.html) I have just reloaded the web page from my own computer (sometimes forget  :()

I will take your suggestion and try to see if the answer can be found in the census as to relationship if any between Jimmy and Herbie)

Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Saturday 16 October 10 14:03 BST (UK)
Shooting of Ryan

Thanks for that additional WS.

If you read  all I have pulled together on this shooting here  (http://www.cairogang.com/other-people/british/castle-intelligence/thomson/ryan/ryan.html) it is clear to me that Bernard Byrne's WS claiming the killing of Ryan was done by him and Tom Keogh is wrong.

The Stapleton & Kennedy WSs both agree as to what happened and mention the fact that in IRA Intelligence Officer made the identification (Kennedy). It was, as I understand it, mandatory that an IO was present and identified the target.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Sunday 17 October 10 11:33 BST (UK)
Yes, hats a good observation but what I would say is that the men were there and involved in the operation, the Squad in 1921 had increased to over 20 men and all members of the Dublin Brigade would have volunteered to have been included in the operation if that was possible to avenge the death of their highly regarded and much loved C.O. Perhaps they didn't fire the first shots, but they could have fired into the body on the way out.
You are quite right regarding the I.O. being present
C.S.M.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Sunday 17 October 10 13:40 BST (UK)
Colonel Frank Saurin W.S. 715, member of F.Co. 2ND Batt. Dublin Brigade, G.H.Q.Intelligence Section
Bloody Sunday- QUOTE
The major and most successful operation to the credit of G.H.Q. Intelligence was the execution of 16 B.I.Officers on the morning of the 21st November, 1920. We attended at the Typographical Societies Offices in Middle Gardiner St. on Saturday night, the 20th, for final briefing on the ( job ) to be carried out the following morning. I was detailed as I.O. to the Squad to execute Lieutenants Gerald Ame's and Bennett at  38 Upper Mount St. The only information I had as to their whereabouts at this address was a recently captured letter to Am es and in which Bennett was mentioned. At 10 o,clock on that night I went to Upper Mount St. to locate the house. Before leaving  I arranged with the Squad leader, Vincent Byrne, where to meet the following morning. The time arranged for the jobs throughout the city was to be 9 a.m. on the 21st. We gained access to number 38 without any difficulty. I asked a maid where was Mr. Bennett and Mr. Ame's. When she told me, we tried the door of Bennett's room which was locked.Herbert Conroy, a member of the Squad, had a sledge hammer under his coat and wanted to break in the door. I would not let him but instructed the maid to knock on the door which was opened by Bennett. We took him to a return room where Ame's was sleeping, and having asked the squad for as much time as possible, as I was interested principally in the papers these I.O. might have, they were then executed in Ame's room. In my anxiety to make a thorough search I was unaware that the squad had left and, hearing some shooting in the street, I walked to the door of Bennett's room. I heard a noise and looking down the hall I saw a British soldier outside the room where the two bodies were.I wheeled round to shoot but the soldier jumped into the room. At the same time, Tom Ennis, who was shooting across the street from the door step of 38, called on me to come on.
I went to the door to see across the road another British soldier shooting down the street at the backs of retreating Squad with what appeared to be a .22 automatic.We both fired and he jumped in through the doorway of his house. Afterwards we learned, much to our disappointment, that Major Carew, a much wanted Intelligence Officer, was living in the house opposite, and the soldier firing was obviously his bat-man.
Tom and I hurried after the squad, the line of our retreat being to Sir John Rogersons Quay and by ferry across the Liffey to the North side. I had to walk to the east side of Clontarf, armed, and with my pockets full of enemy documents. The prospects of getting there before the British were aroused and out on patrol were not very rosy. However, this was accomplished and I found I had captured some valuable documents when I sorted them out later that day at my home.
Amongst the papers I had Ame's note-book which showed that their system of Intelligence work was similar to ours insofar that they had agents or ( touts ) working on identity numbers for patrol purposes in various areas about O,Connell St, Parnell St. and Parnell Square, and other areas likely to bear fruit from the point of view of their touts spotting our people. UN-QUOTE.
See my folowing post regarding Herby Conroy and the squad.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Sunday 17 October 10 14:17 BST (UK)
Herby Conroy and the squad, if you check through the w.s. Saurin refers to all present as the squad, it is a figure of speech, some were members of the squad, the others were member of E.Co. 2nd Batt. Dublin Brigade.
That is where the query regarding Herby Conroy has come from.
One of my own relatives was at Upper Mount St. he was not a paid member of the squad, but a member of E.Co.2nd Batt. D.B., he and his brothers were involved in most of the operations and as valued members of the Dublin Brigade were called to take part and back up the squad, as were many other volunteers.
I have a w.s.no 1762 made by Colonel J.V.Joice, Chief of Investigation Staff of the Bureau of Military History
It gives you a list of members of the following-
The Squad
G.H.Q.Intelligence Staff
Active Service units, NO.1 Section, no.2 Section, no.3 and no.4 Sections.
It is not a definitive list, some Volunteers who come up regularly are not mentioned by name in any of the lists, some for personall reasons did not want their names included, others were people used and only known to Michael Collins, this site of yours Corisande, may come up with those people who deserve to have their stories told
C.S.M.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Sunday 17 October 10 15:14 BST (UK)
Thanks CPM

I have updated my page on 38 Upper Mount st

Is there anything that you feel that I should be adding, feel free to let me know. It is one of the most documented Bloody Sunday venues.

Saurin WS refers to Major Carew firing at them from the house opposite - I don't know if you have read  my bio on Carew, (http://www.cairogang.com/escaped/carew/carew.html) but a most interesting character
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Sunday 17 October 10 16:34 BST (UK)
Yes, I have read the piece on Carew, great research again Corisande.
Major Carew is another of the B.I. Officers who was ahead of the game, and one step ahead of the I.R.A.
Just imagine, he was in digs opposite 38 Upper Mount St., living with his batman under the noses of all the spies and informers, how long he was there I have no way of knowing. He must have had the perfect cover, or the landlady, maids and porters were loyal to the Crown, what one would call today -A SAFE HOUSE ! and there was wasn't many of them in Dublin at that time.
I find the whole subject fascinating, the more W,S, you read, the more information you find, either indirectly or directly, it gives you that bigger picture of what was quite a remarkable weekends events. As you know, I have a personal interest in 38 Upper Mount St.
I see on your site you have a photograph of the house, I followed the route they took and stood outside the house and tried to imagine what it must have been like, all the emotions, it  was a very uplifting experience, some of them were only in their late teens, early twenties.
I do have some further information on the operation and will post it later.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Sunday 17 October 10 16:38 BST (UK)
Quote
how long he (Carew) was there   

That is the rub, he moved there from Ames and Bennetts house, literally the day before.

I have no idea if he had a premonition, or a warning, or whether it was just a better flat over the road
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Monday 18 October 10 17:50 BST (UK)
Hadn't heard that before, has that information been confirmed ?
Colonel Charles Dalton, W.S.434, member of F.Co.2nd Batt. Dublin Brigade, Intelligence Squad- Quote-
I last met Maudie on the Saturday evening, 20th November 1920, at our rendezvous and she told me that all her  ( boarders ) were at home, with the exception of two who were changing their residence that night to Upper Mount St. I duly reported to the Brigade Headquarters and told Dick McKee of the change of address of two of them and he had already briefed all the squads for action on the following morning. However, he made a patch unit to attend to the officers in Upper Mount St. - Unquote.
This was Ame's and Bennett.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Monday 18 October 10 18:00 BST (UK)
Yes

That is correct. They did move, and there is more than one reference to it

I am a bit pushed at the moment, am away on holiday on Wed, and going spare over things like missing visas

I'll try to find the refs
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Tuesday 19 October 10 20:07 BST (UK)
Enjoy your break Corisande, get in touch when you return
C.S.M.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: rattlerbyrne on Friday 22 October 10 14:11 BST (UK)
Hi.

My Great grandfather was Denis Byrne.  I know he worked closely with Collins & was a gunman of some sort but not sure if was a member of "the squad".

We have a great picture of him at Collins' funeral, marching alongside the cart carrying the coffin - guard of honour i think they call it.  I'm going to ask my father - who would be Denis' grandson - if there's any connection to Vinny.

Cheers.

Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Friday 22 October 10 17:21 BST (UK)
Good afternoon rattlerbyrne, the following were members of the squad.
Ben Byrne, J. Byrne, Vinny Byrne and Eddie Byrne.
C,Byrne was a member of G.H.Q. Intelligence Staff.
Your relative could have been a member of the Dublin Brigade, it would have been a great honour to march alongside the coffin.
See if you can find out out which Battalion he was a member of prior to the Treaty.
He would also have been in the Free State Army, you must be very proud of the photograph.
C.S.M.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: rattlerbyrne on Friday 22 October 10 19:47 BST (UK)
error....
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Wednesday 27 October 10 19:27 BST (UK)
Good evening tommobecket, please refer to a previous post, ref Witness Statement 1762 made by J.V.Joice, Chief of Investigation Staff at the Bureau of Military History on page 7, this gives a list of names. A copy is held at the N.A. Bishop St. Dublin and at Cahal Brugha Barracks, this will help you in your research
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Wednesday 27 October 10 19:38 BST (UK)
Good evening Rattlerbyrne, just received my news letter from the Collins 22 Society, one of the guest speakers at a Collins history evening in Navan was a Dr.Elaine Byrne, quote-
Dr.Elaine Byrne who lectures on Politics in Trinity, her granduncle, Charlie ( The Count ) Byrne was part of Collins security detail during the Treaty negotiations in London and a pall bearer at his funeral, is this the same Byrne you mentioned ?
C.S.M.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: tommobecket on Saturday 30 October 10 16:05 BST (UK)
Many thanks Capel Street man, I'm hoping to get over to Dublin early next year so will make visit to NA a priority. I actually received a phone call from Cathal Brugha barracks to let me know they had no information on my grandfathers membership of the Free State army (!) and that his uniform, although not able to make a definitive confirmation, appeared to be indicative of the Irish army during the WOI, which matches with some stories about his run ins with the tans. Although frustratingly he doesn't record any of this in his pension record! I've kind of given up hope of finding anything that records his activity post 1916 and assume he just wanted, like many, to put it all behind him following the civil war, but am always hopeful so thankyou for your guidance.
Rattlerbyrne - are we related?! If so, then the photo will be first evidence of link to Collins and I'll have found a new cousin! (my) Denis's wife was Mary Byrne (Stapleton) ... and yours ... please reply quickly, I'm holding my breath ...
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: thescorpe on Tuesday 02 November 10 23:49 GMT (UK)
hi go to now ye,r talkin boards .ie .know vinny byrnes daughter lives in england.his grea nephew is on there.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: Gary Deering on Tuesday 02 November 10 23:53 GMT (UK)
Hi there The Scorpe, I was on Boards.ie & Vinnys Great Nephew is there I sent him a PM about something I needed to know & got a quick reply seems a nice lad. Gary
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: thescorpe on Wednesday 03 November 10 00:01 GMT (UK)
hope it was helpfull.
goodluck with your search.there was alot with that name try get infomation from irish embassy
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: emer on Tuesday 09 November 10 08:19 GMT (UK)
Hello, not sure if this is the right thread for me. I am looking for more information on my Great Aunt Lily Mernin ( spy for Michael Collins in the castle) and my Godfather and family Piaras Beaslai. I know he fought in the uprising and was connected with Michael Collins closely. My father John (sean) Maguire is in Piaras Beaslais collection of photos in the National Gallery as a child. His parents apparently died when he was born and he was never allowed to ask questions. He was raised in a foster family until he was 13. At this time Lily Mernin and Piaras Beaslai took him into their care. Any help would be appreciated. I am in Australia
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Tuesday 09 November 10 11:15 GMT (UK)
Hello Emer, you come from a great family, your great Aunt made a Witness Statement, no 441, a copy is in the National Archives, Bishop Street, Dublin,it is not on-line yet but you could order a copy. I have a W.S. no. 715 made by Colonel Frank Saurin, who was a member of G.H.Q. Intelligence, he mentions Lily Mermin, quote-
One of my chief agents was a Miss Lily Mermin, a cousin of Piaras Beaslai. She was a typist in Dublin Castle and did typing work for Collins at 118 Clonliffe Road, the home of Pat Moynihan. Moynihan was a postal official in the Sorting Office, Rotunda Rink, and was the agent who gave us the information which led to the various raids on enemy mails. In addition to Lily Mermin being one of our agents at Dublin Castle, she was also attached to me for visiting hotel lounges and the like for spotting and identification work of enemy personnel who used to frequent such places.She and my wife used to attend whist drives run by F. Company Auxiliaries in Dublin Castle. It was usual for one or two of the Auxiliaries to see the ladies to the tram.I followed from outside the Castle, all the time taking a mental description of the men- height, colour, features, clothes, etc. Subsequently I was given their names, rank and official position. un-quote.
She was a truly remarkable lady, I also have books written by P. Beaslai, hope you find this of interest.
C.S.M.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: emer on Wednesday 10 November 10 20:05 GMT (UK)
Hi Capel St Man. Thank you so much for this information. I know I was told that Aunt Lily used to walk down the street with her arm through the arm of one of Michael Collins men and when she saw one of the enemy from the castle she would squeeze his arm, as a signal, My father has her bravery medal still from the IRA. I would love to and intend to get Piaras Beaslai's books that he has written. Unfortunately my father had access to all this when his 'uncle' as he knew him...died, but was grieving and had no interest in his things. I do have a great photo of Aunt Lily as a young woman as well as copies of the photos of my father that Piaras Beaslai has in his collection in the Irish Gallery. Thanks again :)
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Thursday 11 November 10 11:24 GMT (UK)
Hello emer, Piaras Beaslai left all his works, letters, etc. to the National Library of Ireland, you can go on line and check the documented list, it is under The Piaras Beaslai Papers, it is a massive and very important collection.
A two volumed boxed set, recently re published by P.B. is a must read, entitled Michael Collins and the Making of a new Ireland,, published by Edward Burke 2008. It was first published in November 1926, re-printed December 1926,  I S B N 978-0-946130-43-6.
P.B. was given permission by the Collins family to write the book and it gives a great first hand account of that period of Irish history.
I use a book shop in Dublin for my research books , it is called Stokes Books, if you are interested you can email him at - stokesbooks[at]eircom.net to check cost of postage etc to Australia, you could also check out Ea sons Bookshop in Dublin.
I would be interested in seeing the photo, are you able to send it ?
Good luck
C.S.M.

Moderator's Note : obscured business email address
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Sunday 21 November 10 10:13 GMT (UK)
capel street man

In an earlier reply you posted an extract from WS by Paddy Kennedy on the shooting of Ryan. Could you possibly look up what Kennedy has to say about the Gresham Hotel shooting on Bloody Sunday

Having read Meg Moran's book on Patrick Moran "Executed for Ireland". Moran led that group, I am trying to tie up my notes on the Gresham hotel
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Sunday 21 November 10 10:43 GMT (UK)
seanod

(who seems to have fallen by the wayside on the forum) wrote in an earlier post on this thread

I am doing some research on the Custom House burning and I am interested in Joe Leonard and another man called Nicholas Leonard. I'm not sure where they came from or if there was any connection between them. Where was Joe Leonard born?

Nicholas was in D Coy 2nd Battalion Dublin Brigade, and was at Gresham Hotel shootings
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Sunday 21 November 10 12:36 GMT (UK)
mCorisande- W.S. 499 by Patrick Kennedy D Co.2nd Batt. Dublin Brigade- QUOTE-Bloody Sunday
On the Saturday before Bloody Sunday I was instructed to report to 100 Seville Place that night where, I was told, I would receive specific instructions regarding an operation to be carried out the following morning.When I arrived at Seville Place that night, I discovered that a number of specially selected men from my Company were present and that Paddy Moran, my Company O.C.was in charge of them .
Sean Russell took charge for that night, and he gave us his instructions for the following morning.He explained that a big swoop was to be made simultaneously on all British agents residing in private houses throughout the city and that the operation was to be carried out at 9 0,clock sharp.He detailed Paddy Moran to take his party to the Gresham Hotel and eliminate three British Intelligence Officers who were stopping there.Lieutenant- Colonel Wilde and Captain McCormack were two of the British agents, I cannot remember the name of the third..
I arranged with Paddy Moran to meet him in North Earl Street.I met him as arranged and we proceeded to the Gresham Hotel.As we entered the hotel the other members of of our party, who were in the vicinity, came in after us. Our first job was to disconnect the telephone.As we knew the rooms in which the Intelligence agents were located, our party split up, as pre-arranged, and proceeded to the rooms allotted to them by Paddy Moran.There were people in the dining room and we took up position at the door and held them there.Two British agents were eliminated that morning, the third man escaped. He was a Catholic, I believe, and had gone out to early mass.The whole operation lasted less than ten minutes.-UN-QUOTE.
I have other information on Moran made by James Cahill, A.S.U. W.S.no.503
C.S.M.
Did you manage to find out the information on Major Carew that I asked you in regards to moving to Upper Mount Street?
.

Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Sunday 21 November 10 13:28 GMT (UK)
capel street man

Thank you for that quote. I would appreciate the quote my Cahill on Moran too please.

I have been over Carew information but cannot find when he moved to his Mount Street flat.

It would appear that Ames and Bennett moved to 38 Upper Mount Street the day before.

Carew's statement at Moran's trial reads

On 20th November 1920 my servant Private [Lawrence] was very late returning home. I looked out of my sitting room window which is on the top floor and looks on Upper Mount Street and saw him talking to two civilians near the front door [the Moran book confirms that Moran was in fact one of these two men]. Directly I looked out they left him and he came upstairs and made a report to me.

Next morning between 9 and 9.30 am I was in bed when my servant ran in and and told me something. As a result of which I got out of bed and took my automatic with me which I had under my pillow and went to the sitting room and opened the window

At the house opposite I saw a civilian holding up a soldier. In his hand he had a Webley pistol. I cannot swear to him positively. Shortly after the soldier and the civilian disappeared into the house. I heard several shots. 15 or 20 ran out of the house. I fired at him and he fired at my window. I think I hit two as I saw them squirm but they ran on.


A Witness Statement by one of the IRA men Michael Lawless says "I went to the door to see across the road another British soldier shooting down the street at the backs of retreating Squad with what appeared to be a .22 automatic. We both fired and he jumped in through the doorway of his house. Afterwards we learned, much to our disappointment, that Major Carew, a much wanted Intelligence Officer, was living in the house opposite, and the soldier firing was obviously his batman."

The Moran Book has got a lot in it on Moran's trial, which obviously covers Upper Mount Street events in some detail, including the statements made by
Carew  (http://www.cairogang.com/escaped/carew/carew.html)
Lawrence  (http://www.cairogang.com/other-people/british/bloody-sunday/lawrence.html)
Snelling  (http://www.cairogang.com/other-people/british/bloody-sunday/snelling.html)
 Upper Mount Street  (http://www.cairogang.com/addresses/mount-st-upper/upper-mount-st.html)
I have added their statements to the pages above

Certainly the IRA did not know that Carew was in the house opposite (otherwise he would have been on the list). In terns of seniority in British Intelligence  Carew was much more important than either Ames or Bennett
If you look at  this page on British Intelligence  (http://www.cairogang.com/other-people/british/castle-intelligence/castle-intelligance.html) you can see the relative seniority of the various people. Ames and Bennett were lower down the command structure

A Class GG agent was above a class HH, who in turn was above a class II

Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: emer on Sunday 21 November 10 20:47 GMT (UK)
I have some incredible news. After a lot of researching I found Piaras Beaslai's collection in the National Library in Ireland. After contacting the historian who worked on his collection and diaries...it was discovered he is my Grandfather and Lily Mernin my Grandmother! All a lot to take in...especially for my 88 year old father...who knew them as Aunt Lily and Uncle piaras
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Sunday 21 November 10 20:58 GMT (UK)
emer

You have lost me here. I thought that Piaras Beaslai was a cousin of Lily  Mernin.

Are you saying that they were married, or putting it differently that your father is the child of the two of them?
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: emer on Monday 22 November 10 08:09 GMT (UK)
well apparently they were distant cousins...not married...hence the secrecy I guess. They were both his parents
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Monday 22 November 10 10:19 GMT (UK)
Very interesting update Corisande, ref-Upper Mount Street. In this new book on P.Moran, are they saying that  he was definitely at Upper Mount Street on the Saturday evening and was seen by Carews batman ? and they automatically presumed he was at the U.M.Street operation on Bloody Sunday, even though all records and statements say he was involved in the operation at the Gresham Hotel and could not possibly have been at Upper Mount Street ?
Great research on the British Intelligence set up, regarding the seniority of Ame's and Bennett and them being lower down the command structure, it did not make them any less dangerous.
I will post the W.S. by James Cahill ref- Bloody Sunday.
C.S.M.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Monday 22 November 10 10:40 GMT (UK)
Quote
are they saying that  he was definitely at Upper Mount Street on the Saturday evening and was seen by Carews batman ? 

Yes, page 91

"Private Lawrence had met Paddy Moran and another identified man in Mount Street on the eve of Bloody Sunday when Paddy and his friend tried to help a lady who was in some kind of distress. Lawrence questioned the two met because it was past curfew and they should not have been out. Paddy spoke with a cockney accent and managed to convince Lawrence that they were bona fide. The fact that Lawrence had seen Paddy in Mount Street was critical in the building up of the case against Paddy"

Certainly Meg Moran is conceding that Patrick Moran was in Mount Street at just before midnight of 20 Nov. The thing about the cockney accent is new to me - in other words I have seen nothing of that in official records. It is a bit odd in as much as he had nothing to do with the Mount Street operation, it was a last minute operation, so one of the actual group allocated to Mount Street would have had to check it out and it would be them who should have been there casing the place at that time - remember this is just before midnight, and the shootings were at 9am the  next morning
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Monday 22 November 10 11:38 GMT (UK)
Corisande, James Cahill, A.S.U.-W.S.503 Ref-Bloody Sunday.
QUOTE- D.Company was given the task of dealing with three Intelligence Officers who were residing in the Gresham Hotel, O,Connell Street. Three groups, consisting of three men each, were detailed to carry out the shooting. The remainder of our party were given the tasks of controlling members of the hotel staff and residents, covering the exits and preventing communication with the outside during the operation.
Paddy McGRATH, Company O.C. and I were the last to leave the meeting place.At the door, Paddy made a last appeal to Dick McKee to permit him to go on the operation.Dick refused to give permission, as one of Paddy's sons was detailed for the Gresham, and he considered that sufficient for one family
Next morning I met the Company Commander, PADDY MORAN, opposite the Gresham Hotel.We crossed the street together and entered the hotel at exactly nine o,clock. As we passed in, a newsboy called me by my name, asking if I required a paper. A second newsboy, seeing our men converge on the hotel, called to the first, ( Theres a job on. Best clear out of this.) We let them go, as we confident that they would not give the alarm. It was unpleasant for me to realise that an outsider knew of my connection with the operation, particularly as I was residing but a short distance from the hotel.
The three groups having assembled in the vestibule, each was dispatched by the Company O.C. to its respective destination, the group of which Iwas a member , moving off first.As we not conversant with the layout of the hotel, I ordered the head porter to guide us to McCormacks room.Whilst proceeding along the corridor, I observed a man of foreign appearance come to a bedroom door. I had a hunch that he might be one of the other two Intelligence Officers and would, if we continued on our way, take alarm, barricade himself in his room, and endeavour to call for assistance.I covered him with my gun, and asked him for his name.He promptly replied, Alan Wilde, British Intelligence Officer, just back from Spain. At that moment, Mick kilkelly, whose group had been detailed to deal with Wilde, came on the scene and fired, killing him instantly. The fact that Wilde was a new arrival and probably mistook us for a British raiding party would explain his readiness to give us information regarding himself.
As I moved away, I saw through a window a lorry of British Soldiers patrolling slowly along O,Connell Street.We found McCormacks bedroom door closed but unlocked. Nick Leonard and I entered the room and moved towards McCormack, who was partially sitting up in bed. He fired, the bullet passing between Nick and myself burying itself in a door jamb. We fired almost in the same instant, killing him outright.Nick took possession of McCormacks pistol, a .38 automatic. The possession of a gun in that period and his readiness to use it, completely refutes statements which have been made from time to time that he was not a British Agent, and that our Intelligence erred in including him amongst those to be executed.
The third Intelligence Officer had not slept in the Gresham the previous night, and so escaped the purge.
As we emerged fro the hotel there was no enemy in view, and the usual Sunday morning calm prevailed in O,Connell Street.- UN-QUOTE
C.S.M.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: rathmore on Monday 22 November 10 12:08 GMT (UK)
Michael collins site: http://www2.cruzio.com/~sbarrett/mcollins.htm
http://generalmichaelcollins.com

Piara Beaslai's wrote: Michael Collins Solder and Statesman in 1937
and - Michael Collins - The making of a new ireland in 1926

Piara Beaslai's was born in Liverpool to Irish Parents (1883-1965) member of the IRB, he was a Easter Rising Survivor who turned writer.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: rathmore on Monday 22 November 10 12:09 GMT (UK)
sorry missed a (i) out of soldier
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Monday 22 November 10 12:34 GMT (UK)
Quote
He promptly replied, Alan Wilde, British Intelligence Officer, just back from Spain.

Don't you just love that part of Cahill's story.  :)

Thanks for that WS cpm

It is interesting that Foley (who was a section leader at the Gresham) and later became Capt of this IRA company on Moran's death, gave a list of 13 participants in the operation, which did not include Cahill - one of the many inconsistencies one get in Witness Statements. It is difficult to know if Cahill made the whole thing up from stories told to him by others, or whether Foley just forgot Cahill was there when he wrote his WS
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Monday 22 November 10 18:00 GMT (UK)
The origin of the W.S.
The Bureau of Military History was formed in 1947 to assemble and co-ordinate material to form the basis for the compilation of the history of the movement for Independence from the formation of the Irish Volunteers on the 25th November 1913 to 11th July 1921.
Witnesses were interviewed by specially trained people and officers of the Bureau, the information given at the time was checked and verified .
Most of the W.S. were taken late 1940,s early 50,s, some 30 years after the original events, so discrepancies and mistakes are bound to occur.
Also many Volunteers did not want their names mentioned for obvious reasons.
I have no reason to doubt Cahills W.S. regarding Bloody Sunday
In Colonel J.V.Joyce,s W.S. Chief of Investigation Staff of the Bureau, he lists Cahill as a definite member of No.2 Section of the Active Service Unit, a brave soldier and a man of honour.
Yes, I agree you should check all the facts, new information is becoming available all the time and you have to check and double check, hopefully this site will help to make that happen
C.S.M.
.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Monday 22 November 10 18:30 GMT (UK)
Quote
The third Intelligence Officer had not slept in the Gresham the previous night, and so escaped the purge. 

That is the chap I am trying to track down at the moment, as nobody either knows, or is prepared to tell, his name

My own feeling is that this chap was the one Collins had put on the original list, before it was augmented by Dublin Brigade
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: rathmore on Tuesday 23 November 10 12:01 GMT (UK)
It possible that there will not be a full list of Michael Collins squad, the IRA was a (secret squad) nobody mention  names.  And it is possible nobody is going to tell you who was in this Squad.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: rathmore on Tuesday 23 November 10 12:28 GMT (UK)
on the following site it says Dennis Byrne was a gunmen in Michael Collins Squad.

http://idea.library.drexel.edu/bitstream/1860/1209/1/2006175027/pdf

Drexel University
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: tommobecket on Tuesday 23 November 10 17:59 GMT (UK)
thankyou for this source rathmore. but I can't seem to access the site with that link, and the drexel website does not provide any link to the code. Do youhave a title or author of the source please?
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Tuesday 23 November 10 18:02 GMT (UK)
I got it by putting "Byrne " into the site search engine on the place that the broken link takes you to.

You get a list of Byrne references but it is fairly clear from the list the one you want.

Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: rathmore on Wednesday 24 November 10 14:20 GMT (UK)
That right you put Byrne in the box, then click on 9th June 2006 Bold sons of erin, by Joseph Reilly, then click on File: 2006175027.pdf
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: tommobecket on Saturday 27 November 10 10:24 GMT (UK)
Thankyou Corisande and Rathmore. I have been in correspondence with Joe Reilly and he was most helpful. The films he refers to is 'Curious journey, The Fight For Irish freedom' which I am sure you are aware of. Sadly (for me anyway) this Denny Byrne is not my grandfather as he died in 1940 and the films were made in the 1970's ... Ah well ... The films offer very moving accounts by Maire Comerford, Brighid Thornton, Sean Kavangh, Martin Walton, Joseph Sweeney, tom Barry, John O’Sullivan, David Nelligan & Sean Harling.
Joe reminded of the frequent use of alias for protection and that Collins went by the name of "John Grace" at times.
Joe forwarded the notes of his lecture at the International Psychohistorical Association Convention at New York University on June 9, 2006, “Bold Sons Of Erin: The Irish As Guerrillas and Gangsters.”
which includes an extensive bibliography and references. I could put this up if anyone was interested?
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Sunday 28 November 10 12:08 GMT (UK)
Rathmore
Colonel J.V.Joice, W.S. NO.1762 Chief of Investgation Staff of the Bureau of Military History, gives a list of names of members of the Squad, G.H.Q. Intelligence Staff and the Active Service Unit., dated 18th February, 1959
Quote- The Squad
From statements to hand, the Squad may be defined as a Special Unit formed by the Director of Intelligence, Michael Collins, for special duties decided on by him and to deal with enemy agents, spies and informers. It operated directly under his own particular direction and was solely responsible to him. Its activities were not, however, strictly limited to the liquidation of spies and informers. On occasions it took part in other military operations in conjuction with units of the Dublin Brigade such as , for example, the burning of the Custom House. Starting with a numerical strength of four, it was increased from time to time but never exceeded twenty. Some members, however, claim that it never numbered more than twelve and for this reason its personal became known as The Twelve Apostles.
THE SQUAD
1.BEN BYRNE
2.JIM CONROY
3.W.STAPLETON
4.J.SLATTERY
5.P.DALEY
6.J.LEONARD
7.M.KENNEDY
8.F.BOLSTER
9.J.DUNNE
10.J.BYRNE
11.P.LAWSON
12.I.MCKENNA
13.V.BYRNE
14.D.HANNON
15.SAM ROBINSON
16.M.MCEVOY
DECEASED
1.EDDIE BYRNE
2.TOM KEOGH
3.SEAN DOYLE
4.M. REILLY
5.L.MURRAY
6.P. GRIFFIN
7.BEN BARRETT
8.R. MURPHY UN-QUOTE
C.S.M.












.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: Gary Deering on Monday 29 November 10 04:44 GMT (UK)
Thanks for that Capel Street man, There are so many names missing from that list,then again it was made 38 years after the Squad became the Dublin Guard.John Wilson calls the Squad  the GHQ Guard !. On John`s Demobilisation Grant form,Comdt Ed Mc Evoy lists him as "a member of the big fellows Squad ".Just looking at the list John Wilson mentions he was with Tom Keogh when he was killed in Macroon Co Cork on one of the forms I have here, that his daughter got as part of his army records.

Gary
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Sunday 02 January 11 12:26 GMT (UK)
Happy new year to all, Corisande, do you have a photograph of Carew or his batman ?
C.S.M.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Sunday 02 January 11 14:41 GMT (UK)
CSM

Carew, like most of the men I research, appears quite exotic. The same appears to apply to his family.

I succeeded in tracking down a descendant of Carew in Australia, who told me her aged aunt over-wintered in Bulgaria, and she emailed said aunt for info on photos. Aged aunt does not go online too often, particularly in Bulgaria.

Needless to say I am still waiting! Major C was very cagy about getting his photo taken, as he was anxious to avoid his creditors, the Germans, the IRA and later the Palestinians (he joined Palestine Police after Ireland)
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Saturday 26 March 11 18:39 GMT (UK)
Corisande, just to let you know, Lily Mermin did make a Witness Statement No. 441, subject - Intelligence Work 1916 - 1921
CSM
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Sunday 27 March 11 11:15 BST (UK)
Hello MS Smokestoomuch
Left a post for you on the Old IRA Brigade site ref information on a Patrick Duffy in the Saint Laurence O,Toole Centenary History book by Jimmy Wrenn
You also mention that your grandfather Michael Smith, was in "E" Co. 2nd Battalion, Dublin Brigade, my grandfather, Michael Duffy and 3 of his brothers were in the same Company and would have known your grandfather, do you have any other information on "E"Co.2nd Batt. Dublin Brigade.
I would like to start a site that deals only with "E" Co. 2nd Battalion and list as many of the volunteers as possible, has this been started on any other sites?
Corisande has done a tremendous amount of work regarding this subject.
Because of the amount of operations "E" Co.2nd Battalion were involved in I think there would be a definite interest, I am recent to the site and would appreciate yours and any body else's thoughts on the subject
CSM
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Sunday 27 March 11 11:45 BST (UK)
Quote
to start a site that deals only with "E" Co. 2nd Battalion and list as many of the volunteers as possible, has this been started on any other sites?

Good idea. I don't think there is anything similar.

It is my impression that you should be able (eventually) to plumb the depths of what went on at the time.

For example, on Bloody Sunday only very little is known, and only about the comparatively few men who, as it were, pulled the triggers. There were lots of others keeping watch, first aid, car drivers and so on.

If you contained it to, as you say, one company, you might be able to tease out the details that have been hidden to date.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: rathmore on Sunday 27 March 11 11:49 BST (UK)
don't know if this is already on - in July 1919 Michael Collins asked Dick McKee a group founding members, Paddy Daly, Mick McDonnell, Ben Barrett, James Conroy, Sean Doyle, Joe Leonard, Jim Slattery, Bill Stapleton
http://www.associatedcontent.com
type in box Michael Collins Twelve Apostles
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Tuesday 29 March 11 08:30 BST (UK)
Hello Corisande, I would like to start with a list of names from the Witness Statement by Colonel J.V.Joice W.S.no.1762, I know some of those mentioned would have been members of "E" Co.2nd Battalion Dublin Brigade.
I listed the SQUAD on an earlier post.
QUOTE
The following information in regard to the SQUAD,G.H.Q. INTELLIGENCE STAFF and THE ACTIVE SERVICE UNIT was compiled by me following consultations which I had over a period of years in my capacity as Chief of the Investigation Staff of the Beareau, with officers and members of these units.
G.H.Q. INTELLIGENCE STAFF
When Michael Collins became Director of Intelligence, a G.H.Q. Intelligence Staff was formed to work under his personal direction. Intially, it consisted of a small number of men, some of whom had experience of Intelligence work with units of the Dublin Brigade, and as suitable men became available the staff increased. This involved generally the procurement of information regarding enemy activities and the tracking down of agents, spies and suspects.When dealing with such individuals, the Intelligence Staff worked in close conjuction with the Squad. When an execution of a spy or informer was ordered, a member of the Intelligence Staff invariably accompanied the members of the Squad detailed to carry out the execution, the idea being to ensure the identity of the individual concerned.

G.H.Q.INTELLIGENCE STAFF

LIAM TOBIN
FRANK THORNTON
JOE GUILFOYLE
CHAS DALTON
D.McDONNELL
NED KELLIHER
C. BYRNE
FRANK SAURIN
P. KENNEDY
SEAN TUMBLETON
JOE KAVANAGH
SWEENY NEWELL
CON O,NEILL
ALF. ONEILL
JOE SHANAHAN
PADDY CALDWELL
GEO. FITZGERALD
JIM HUGHES
MARTIN HOARE
JACK WALSHE
JERRY CONDON
JOE DOLAN

DECEASED
TOM CULLEN
P. McGEE
JIM MURRAY

A.S.U to follow
CSM
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Tuesday 29 March 11 08:59 BST (UK)
THE ACTIVE SERVICE UNIT
In December, 1920, an Active Service Unit was formed to operate under the orders of the O.C. the Dublin Brigade. Its personnal were drawn from the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th Battalions, each Battalion supplying a section of approximately twelve strong. Like the SQUAD and INTELLIGENCE STAFF, these men were emloyed full name on active service work and ,as they were taken from their normal employment, they were paid for their military services. The main purpose of this unit was to harass and ambush Crown Forces whenever the opportunity arose, and once the unit was established, street ambushes became almost continuos daily occurrences. Generally each section operated in its own Battalion area, but there were times when the unit operated as a whole, such as the burning of the Custom House
ACTIVE SERVICE UNIT
NO.1.SECTION
D. O,SULLIVAN
C. QUINN
I. FLOOD
P. O,CONNOR
J. FOY
 J. SLINEY
E. BRESLIN
S. BURKE
C. MAXWELL
P. RATCLIFFE
J. KERRIGAN

DECEASED
FRANK FLOOD
B. RYAN
P. DOYLE
M. McGEE
C. O,MALLEY
M. DUNNE

NO.2.SECTION
I. McGRATH
G. GRAY
J. HEERY
J. GILHOOLY
P. EVERS
J. CAHILL
J.MULDOONEY
C. FITZSIMONS
BOB PURCELL
JOE GILLAN
P. DRURY
J. CAFFREY
BILL GANNON

NO.3 SECTION
J. GIBBONS
G. WHITE
M. WHITE
J. BROWNE
PHIL QUINN
C. DOWNEY
F. DOWNEY
J. DOLAN
M. DOWLING
J. HANLON
P.BRUNTON
J.DOYLE
D. JERVINS
JOE CARROLL
BILL CONROY

DECEASED
BILL PHILIPS
M. STAPLETON
P. LARKIN
LEO FITZGERALD
P. MORRISSEY
K.KERRIGAN
P. FLANIGAN

NO.4 SECTION
JIM McGUINNESS
P.O,CONNOR
P. RIGNEY
J. TULLEY
I. LILLIS
P. MULLEN
G. NOLAN
P. COLLINS
J. HARPUR
W. WALSHE
I. LEIGH
M. STACK
SIMON McENERNEY

DECEASED
M. SWEENEY
GUS MURPHY
A. O,TOOLE
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Tuesday 29 March 11 09:18 BST (UK)
Some of the names may come as a surprise to some of the relatives who use this site and might not have known that they were involved in the different units, others may be dissapointed that their relatives names on not on the list, as I have said before, the ordinary Volunteer went to work and was called out as and when they were required, my own relatives are not on the list but they were involved in most of the operations carried out by " E" Co.2ND Battalion Dublin Brigade, also Michael Collins had his own people only he and a very few of his trusted colleagues knew who they were, that is why he was so successful in the INTELLIGENCE WAR.
I look forward to your comments
CSM
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Thursday 14 April 11 17:50 BST (UK)
Hello Corisande, thought you might find this of interest relating to your earlier post of how many individuals were supposed to be present at the shooting of John Ryan, it is from W.S.822 by William Stapleton.
Quote - The usual method of allocating men to carry out an execution of an enemy agent was for the leader of the Squad, Paddy Daly or Jim Slattery, to nominate two men in turn. This was adhered  to very rigidly. This did not mean that two men went forth to carry out the execution as the Squad, at full strength, was always present at every execution and it worked in this fashion. The Intelligence Officer or Officers instructed to identify and point out the individual did so in a very direct fashion, usually by actually speaking to him by a pre- arranged signal. The two members of the Squad detailed to carry out the actual shooting on receiving the signal usually waited apart from the remainder and walked towards the person and carried out the execution which, in the majority of cases, took place on main public streets. The remainder of the Squad, fully armed, were usually within fifty yards of the scene and at the time of the execution stepped on to the public streets, very often with guns drawn to protect the two men who had been engaged on the shooting. un - quote.
That would explain why so many said they were involved in the operation, even though they couldn't all have carried out the shooting.
CSM
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Thursday 14 April 11 17:57 BST (UK)
No, its two different accounts of the actual shooting

"Tom Keogh and Bernard Byrne entered the public-house by a door on the right hand side, called for two drinks, surveyed the customers. They narrowed their choice of target down to one man who was sitting on their immediate right deeply immersed in a study of The Early Bird, a racing paper. They were unable to see his features, but believed from his general build that he was the man in whom we were interested. Keogh nudged Byrne to make a move, and Byrne approached the man and asked him what they were tipping for some particular race. The man had to lower the paper. Immediately he did so they knew it was Ryan. Without any delay Keogh fired on him, with Bernard Byrne doing likewise. Ryan was dead immediately."

and

My request {Stapleton}was granted and the second man instructed to accompany me was Eddie Byrne, now deceased. About 10.30 o,clock on the morning of the 5th February, 1921, our Intelligence Officer located Ryan in Hynes public house at the corner of Old Gloucester Place and Corporation St. We entered the public house with the Intelligence Officer and I saw Ryan standing facing the counter reading a newspaper and he was identified by the I.O. Before doing the job we held him up and searched him but he had no guns or papers on him. I think we said , You are Ryan, and I think he rejoined, Yes, and what about it, or words to that effect. With that we shot him.

My view is that it was Stapleton and Eddie Byrne, not Tom Keogh and Bernard Byrne. But apart from the witness statements one cannot prove it.

 My full write up on the shooting of Ryan is on this link  (http://www.cairogang.com/other-people/british/castle-intelligence/thomson/ryan/ryan.html)
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Friday 15 April 11 10:17 BST (UK)
I see where you are coming from Corisande, I am surprised this was not picked up by the Bureau of Military History who took the original statements, as I mentioned on an earlier post, they were supposed to have been checked and verified.
The witness to W.Stapletons statement was a Commandant W.Ivory of the B.M.H. and it was made in 1953, some 30 odd years after the operation, I am sure there is a logical explanation to the discrepancies you mention. I have come across pages in some of the W.S. I have researched where a name or address has been removed after it was printed and an official letter by the B.M.H. inserted back in the W.S. They explained this was because a relative or the Government at the time deemed it to be sensitive, but you could quite easily work out the name or names removed from other W.S. dealing with the same subject, perhaps we will never know, what you have put on your link to the Ryan shooting sounds logical to me unless somebody out there can advise otherwise.
CSM
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Friday 15 April 11 10:31 BST (UK)
Having read, as you know, a great many of the WSs, my feeling is that none of them were checked, but that a man's thoughts were just recorded.

Each man who made a WS knew that it would not be made public until after his death, and by then there was probably nobody left to say otherwise.

The only "censorship" of a man's WS I have come across was on Michael Keogh's (he was senior NCO in Casements Irish Brigade) where the Director of the Bureau of Military History puts a preface to Keogh's Witness Statement which reads
" his claims to importance, which he parades on every occasion, are regarded by those who have come into official contact with him as grossly exaggerated and completely unreliable. Representing himself in the beginning to have been an NCO in the Brigade, his most recent letters to the press indicate that he now claims to have been a Captain and ADC to Roger Casement."
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: HONOUR-GUARD on Friday 15 April 11 11:50 BST (UK)
Good morning Capel street man ,
you mentioned my grandfather in one of your recent postings
I'm the only member of my family that has an interest in our past and i am constantly trying to get more info re my grandfather and the times he lived through
His name was Sean Tumbleton , if you have  any additional   info about him i would be most grateful.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Friday 15 April 11 14:13 BST (UK)
Welcome to the site Honour - Guard, you do not say how far you have looked into your grandfathers past, the best and most productive is to apply for a copy of his army file- pre-truce as he is mentioned as being a member of G.H.Q.Intelligence Staff, if he applied for a pension, this again will say when he joined and which Battalion he was a member of, this takes approx 2 years to get a reply but is well worth the wait.
I checked my list of Witness Statements but he does not appear to have made one.
What about medals or old photos, this site is most helpful and there may be other members on it who have come across the name.
Let me know how far you have got.
I can provide details and addresses for you to contact, you have started your quest, stay with it
Good luck
CSM.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: HONOUR-GUARD on Friday 15 April 11 15:26 BST (UK)
MANY THANKS  Capel Street Man for your prompt reply, I do have some information and photos , but not a huge amount around  that period, he was born 1885 and passed away in 1970. As you know he was working for Collins in GHQ in parkgate during the day and was contributing to chaos at night  along with Martin Hoare,  helping to earn Camden Street ,Thomas street and the surronding areas the name of the Dardenell's to the crown forces.He was also in the Dublin Metropolitan Police and then later as a detective in An Garda Siochana, based in Dublin  Castle. He's mentioned briefly in David Nelligans book The Spy in the Castle. But apart from a few other snipets thats all i have of that period.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Friday 15 April 11 16:15 BST (UK)
That's good information what you have there, you could start a new post to see if anyone  else can help you.
Have you read the books dealing with the period, they will give you a feel and insight. You could also check out the Witness Statements at the National Archives, Bishop Street, Dublin, look at the names I posted in G.H.Q.Intelligence , some of them made W.S. and they might have mentioned your grandfather, they will definitely give you an insight in to what they got up to.
CSM
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Sunday 17 April 11 08:19 BST (UK)
Good morning Corisande, I came across a William E. Crewe 79043 "F" Co. Auxiliary Intelligence  Officer and it says he joined the Palestine Police, 7th March, 1922, I notice from your link to the British Agents that some of these had also joined the Palestine Police ( Carew and King ? ), can you tell me any more about Crewe, I have not come across his name before, could he have been on the original list of "35" alleged British Agents ref - Bloody Sunday.
We know Carew was on the list but G.H.Q. Intelligence were not aware he was residing opposite 38 Upper Mount Street. The more I think of it the more I cannot believe how he was missed or not exposed by the landlord / landlady, or the maids/servants. I said on an earlier post that the house must have been one of the safest in Dublin but Carew was involved in the majority of raids and searches in Dublin 1920/21 and he would have been well known to the I.R.A. Intelligence. He must have been the master of disguises and his cover bomb proof and water tight, he must also have been a very clever and brave adversary, I think his part needs further investigation. Is there any way of knowing who owned the house.
CSM
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Sunday 17 April 11 08:36 BST (UK)
Good Morning from Sunny Spain  :)

You want to know about Crewe, I am sure you would be surprised if I did not have a page on him  on this link here  (http://www.cairogang.com/other-people/british/auxiliaries/crewe/crewe.html)

I would be surprised if he had been on Bloody Sunday list, as he only joined ADRIC on 1 Oct 1920.

The IRA were not aware the Carew was there as he had only moved there literally the day before Bloody Sunday. I still have not got a photo of Carew, other than a tiny shot on a F Coy group photo, which is too small to make him out properly. He was actually shot in the arm by an assassin in a Dame St Cafe,

1921 Feb 3. Severely wounded and gets gratuity of £104 for his wound from the army, plus £1500 from a Civil Court in Ireland for "malicious injury". His army wound gratuity was later increased to the maximum allowed of £250, but he did not get a wound pension. He was sitting in a tea shop in Dame Street in Dublin, when a man approached him and deliberately fired at Carew with an automatic pistol. A friend with Carew, attempted to grapple with the assailant, but the man escaped. Sturgis has the incident in his diary, saying that Carew was meant to be giving evidence at a court -martial the next day (does not say which case) and that that trial had to be postponed. In fact this was Moran's trial for the murders at 38 Upper Mount St opposite Carew's lodgings. The trial, due to start on 4th February, had to be postponed, and it started on 15th February 1921.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Sunday 17 April 11 17:44 BST (UK)
Thanks for that Corisande, I knew you would have something, much appreciated. I never knew Carew had moved the day before, I know Ames and Bennett had moved from Lower Mount Street the day before, can you confirm where the information on Carew has come from ?, I think I have asked you that question before but you were going on holiday.
I have the W.S. no.445 by Colonel James J.Slattery
Member of "F" Co. 2nd Battalion Dublin Brigade 1914-;
Member of "The Squad" 1919 - 1921.
He gives a brief report on the shooting of Ryan and would you know, a page was censored and a name removed in 2003.
He also gives a detailed account of the operation at 22 Lower Mount Street
If you want this information let me know
CSM.

Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Sunday 17 April 11 18:02 BST (UK)
 I am afraid that it comes from a WS which I cannot put my finger on. One of the participants explained in his WS that they did not know it was Carew, because he had just moved in. Had they known then .....

The Paddy Moran Book, "Executed for Ireland", is worth reading if you have not done so - for obvious reasons it concentrates on the murder that Paddy Moran did not do (Mount St) rather than the one that he did (Gresham Hotel)

I would like that stuff you refer to. Do you have my email if you need to email it?
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Sunday 17 April 11 20:39 BST (UK)
I will order that book about Moran.
W.S.445 Col. James J. Slattery, page 10 ref -  the shooting of John Ryan quote -
There is a page inserted relating to the National Archives Act 1986, Regulations,1988.
Part (v) of the form - Reasons why the part has been abstracted for retention.
(c) Would or might cause distress or danger to living persons on the ground that they contain information about individuals, or would or might be likely to lead to an action for damages for defamation.
It has been signed by a Colonel J. Maloney, department/office/court, date 7th March 2003.
A name has been removed from the following  paragraphs.
John Ryan was, in one way or another, an agent of the Dublin Castle authorities. As far as I can recollect it was he who was responsible for the arrest of McKee and Clancy. He knew them and he was supposed to have tracked them that night to the place where they slept, somewhere around Gloucester Street.
Early in February, 1921, instructions were given to have Ryan executed. Four or five of us proceeded to the Gloucester Diamond, where it was known Ryan used to frequent.------------ a member of the Intelligence Section. entered the public house there and shot Ryan. Five or six members of the Squad, including myself, acted as covering party for------------ un-quote
Off out for a few pints, will post details of Lower Mount Street tomorrow.
CSM
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Sunday 17 April 11 21:24 BST (UK)
Thanks, I have added that snippet to my page on Ryan, it does not contradict any of the others, but there again it only mentions himself!

Odd really that there are a number of other WS which have not been edited, so I wonder if he mentioned yet another man who was stated to be the assassin.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: HONOUR-GUARD on Monday 18 April 11 08:29 BST (UK)
Good morning Capel Street Man,
You mentioned contact details you have to allow me to submit a request for my grandfathers military record pre-truce , I would be most grateful for same.
Kind Regards
HG
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Monday 18 April 11 08:36 BST (UK)
W.S.445 Col. J.J.Slattery " The Squad" ref -  Bloody Sunday quote -
On the evening of 20th November, 1920, the Squad, the Active Service Unit, and a lot of other Volunteers from individual units were ordered to parade at a house in Gardiner Street, I believe. We were addressed there by Dick Mckee, who told us that an operation had been planned for the following morning, Sunday at nine a,m, to eliminate a number of British Intelligence Agents and spies who were residing in houses throughout the city. He had the names and addresses of the men who were to be executed there were members of the Intelligence Section present.
I was assigned to 22 Lower Mount Street, where 2 enemy agents were located. One was Lieutenant McMahon, but I cannot remember the other mans name.
Tom Keogh and myself from the Squad, with six others from "E" Company of the 2nd Battalion, proceeded to Lower Mount Street, at the appointed hour on the following morning,21st November. We knocked at the door and a maid admitted us. We left two men inside the door to see that nobody would enter or leave the house, and the remainder of us proceeded upstairs to two rooms, the numbers of which we had already ascertained. We had only just gone upstairs when heard shooting downstairs. The housekeeper or some other lady in the house had seen a patrol of Tans passing by outside, and had started to scream. The Tans immediately surrounded the house and tried to gain admission.One of our young men, Billy McClean, fired at them through the door and eased the situation for us for a little while, although he got wounded in the hand himself. I think the Tans fired first.
We succeeded in shooting Lieutenant McMahon, but could not gain admission into the room where the other agent was sleeping. There was a second man in McMahon's bed, but we did not shoot him as we had no instructions to do so. We discovered afterwards that he was an undesirable character as far as we were concerned, and that we should have shot him.
We went downstairs and tried to get out but found the British Forces at the front of the house. We went to the back of the house, and a member of "E" Co, Jim Dempsey, and myself got through by getting over a wall. We understood that the rest of our party were following us, but after going a little distance we found we were alone. What actually happened was that Teeling was the third man to scale the wall, and as he got up he was fired on from the house. We were all fired on, but Teeling was the only man who was hit. Teeling took cover in the garden.The other members of our party retired and got safely through the front door in the confusion. It was only hours afterwards that we discovered Teeling was wounded. Dempsey and myself went round by the South Circular Road, and got a wash - up in Goldens house, Victoria Street. We got home safely. Some time before the football match most of us met again, and it transpired that Teeling was on the missing list. un - quote.
CSM
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Monday 18 April 11 09:00 BST (UK)
Thanks CPM

That raises a point that I have never managed to solve, viz the second man in Angliss' bed

Slattery says here
There was a second man in McMahon's bed, but we did not shoot him as we had no instructions to do so. We discovered afterwards that he was an undesirable character as far as we were concerned, and that we should have shot him

My summation of inquiry was
They found the man, whose real name was Angliss, the bedroom door was unlocked and he was in bed with the man who became the inquest’s ‘Mr C’. He testified at Teeling’s court-martial that I was awakened about 9 a.m. by someone shouting ‘Hands up’ when I opened my eyes I saw five men standing at the end of my bed covering me with revolvers. One of the men who appeared to be acting as leader gave the order to keep McMahon and myself covered and he proceeded to search the room. He picked up a civilian coat belonging to McMahon and said ‘ is this your coat McMahon’, McMahon said ‘No.’ He then put his hand in the inside pocket, took out a wallet and said ‘You’re a damned liar ’ and put the wallet in his pocket. He then said ‘where are your guns Mac’. McMahon said ‘look here we are two R[oman] C[atholic]s but the guns are in that bag’. The man then walked over to the bag which was lying in a corner of the room, lifted it on to the table and burst the locks off with his hands and took out three revolvers. They were one service Colt, one Webly-Scott Automatic and one .32 automatic. He put them in his pockets. I then heard firing which seemed to come from the street and I heard a noise as if someone was trying to smash in the front door. A man’s voice on the landing then shouted ‘are you all right there boys. They’re surrounding the house.’ The five men in the room then turned as if to rush out, they went a little way down the room then halted and the man who had been doing the searching raised his revolver – pointed it at the bed and fired. I saw McMahon raise his arm to cover his face and at the same time I threw myself out of the bed on to the floor practically simultaneously I heard other shots ring out from the other men in the room and they all rushed out of the room. McMahon was shot three times in the chest and once in the buttock.

I have never managed to find out who the other man was. Odd really that neither side have mentioned him by name. Any ideas or leads on "Mr C" ?
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Monday 18 April 11 09:21 BST (UK)
Good morning H.G. you will need to write to -
Department of Defence, Pensions Section/Department, Renmore, Galway.
You will need to include his D.O.B. and the addresses he lived at from the time of the War of Independence up to when he applied for a pension, normally in the 1920,s 30,s.
The person I dealt with was a Marie Treacy, Pensions Administration Section
Email *
This was in 2008, so I am not sure if it has changed due to the cut backs.
As I mentioned it took about 2 years to receive the information but it was well worth the wait, once you get your grandfathers  S.P. no, it may be worth checking with the Military Archives at Cahill Brugha Barracks, Rathmines ,Dublin to see if they have any information on your grandfather, I was fortunate that a file on my grandfather had survived and in it was a handwritten letter by him stating what he had been involved in, it was fascinating, I wish you well in your research, keep me informed.
CSM

Moderator Note : Email address removed - can you exchange any email details by PM please
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Monday 18 April 11 09:51 BST (UK)
I came across this Corisande, Captain Fitzgerald, alias "Fitzpatrick", was shot dead at 28 Earlsfort Terrace. He was the son of a Tipperary man and had survived a previous execution attempt when the bullet only grazed his head. This time he was shot twice in the head. At this address the documention found detailed the movements of senior I.R.A. members, proving that the British Secret Service was planning an operation similar to the I.R.A,s of that morning.
CSM
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Monday 18 April 11 09:58 BST (UK)
I have come across that before, but am inclined not to believe it unless I can substantiate it. Nobody had claimed to have taken part in that raid, which is really odd. My feeling is that they got the wrong man and nobody wanted to have admitted that they took part.

http://www.cairogang.com/addresses/earlsfort-ter/earlsfort-terrace.html

As you know, for most of the Bloody Sunday raids there are a lot of WS as to what took place (through the eyes of the man making the statement anyway)
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Monday 18 April 11 13:57 BST (UK)
Came across this H.G, I thought the name struck a cord but I could not quite place it, I have been going through my notes and research files and came across the following Witness Statement, I only copied pages 10 & 11 of a W.S. no.1210 by M.Carroll, ref - it mentioned an Irish spy they were after, by the name of O,Neill who was a former member of the Battalion and a very dangerous man to the I.R.A. in Dublin and a great asset to the British Intelligence, to which department he had been attached.
Quote - Sean Tumbleton and J.Breslan were beaten up and  kicked all over the place. Guns were found on Cluskey and Breslan. Hoare and Tumbleton were released on the following day as they proved to be civil servants and, therefore, thought to be law - abiding citizens.
He is mentioned in the next paragraph, quote -
About the end of June, 1921, a Company Council was held in the Phoenix Park...... Larry Ledwidge, Battalion I.O, Jos.O,Connor, Comdt, Sean Guilfoyle, Vice Comdt,F.O,Grady, O/C "A" Company, James Keogh, Lt., Section leaders T.Jones, M.Carroll, S. Keys, M.Hoare, S.TUMBLETON, Adjt., C.Murray, J.Harcout and P. Bolger were present....... un - quote.
That should wet your appetite
CSM
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: HONOUR-GUARD on Monday 18 April 11 14:45 BST (UK)
Thank you  CSM , thats the very type of little nugget that makes one strive to know more.
Regards
HG
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Thursday 21 April 11 09:03 BST (UK)
Good morning Corisande, reference to your recent post about assassination attempt on Carew, a W.S. no 707 by Michael Noyk, Solicitor and legal adviser to M.Collins and A.Griffith, he also defended Moran,states the folowing-
Quote - Before closing my narrative in this case, I may mention that on the second morning of the trial ( Moran) there was excitement caused by the fact that Major Carew, whom I have already mentioned, was not available. He turned up later with his arm in a sling and it was ascertained that he had been shot at while having tea in the basement portion of the then D.B.C. Tea Rooms in Dame Street while on his way to the Castle. From enquiries made by me, it was apparent that the shooting was not done by the I.R.A, but was obviously done by the British Forces. un - quote. What do make of that ?
He also mentions an encounter with Captain King and Captain Hardy, let me know if you want it.
C.S.M.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Thursday 21 April 11 09:43 BST (UK)
Quote
From enquiries made by me, it was apparent that the shooting was not done by the I.R.A, but was obviously done by the British Forces What do make of that? 

I certainly do not believe that. Neither do I believe that the IRA shot the Lord Mayor of Cork  :) At least everyone agrees that Carew was in DBC Tea Rooms in Dame St when he was shot

Quote
He also mentions an encounter with Captain King and Captain Hardy,
Yes please can I have that, I have a lot on those two and it all helps
http://www.cairogang.com/escaped/hardy/hardy.html
http://www.cairogang.com/escaped/king/king.html

Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Thursday 21 April 11 11:12 BST (UK)
With Shane's help I have located the DBC Tearooms. They were owned by the Dublin Bread Company  at 33 Dame Street in Dublin

It was quite a well known place in its time, it even features in one of James Joyces works. This is only 100 metres from the gates of Dublin Castle, between the Castle and College Green.

Are there any other WS where anyone claims to have taken a pot shot at Carew on this date. By guess is that there will not be, as unsuccessful shootings tend not to be recorded.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Thursday 21 April 11 13:50 BST (UK)
Michael Noyk, W.S.no.707, pages 31,32 ref King and Hardy Quote -
Shortly before Christmas of 1920, I was invited out to a birthday party of one of the children of Mr.William Sinclair whom I have mentioned in connection with the Cavan election.He lived in a house overlooking the Bailey Lighthouse in Howth. In the party was a Mrs. Salkeld, mother of Cecil Salkeld, the artist; the late Padraig O Conaire, the well known Irish writer, and Paul Farrell, the then actor and now a medical doctor. After we had had our meal we sat round the fire and somewhere about 9 o,clock there was a loud knock at the door, which was an unusual thing in that locality. Mr. Sinclair went out to answer the door and seemed to be a long time away. Suddenly a number of Auxiliaries came into the drawing - room where we were seated, headed by the notorious Captain King. He went over and opened a violin case, but he did not say anything which to me seemed very strange. However, I soon learned the reason. After about ten minutes, the door opened suddenly and in rushed a British Officer wearing a " British warmer". He did not walk across the room, but rushed in, the reason for which I guessed later. Without any ado, he pounced on Padraig O Conaire and seized him by the coat, asking him what his occupation was. Padraig said he was a writer and he then proceeded to search him and took out a small notebook which Padraig had, and, on the first page was written the name " Michael Collins". "Ow ", said this gentleman, who so far, had not disclosed his identity, " you know Michael Collins " ? " Oh no ", said Padraig, " that is the name of a dog". He then turned to Farrell and he asked him what he did. Farrell said, I am an actor, "Ow", continued the officer, can you recite Kevin Barry? You know, he added, " I am Captain Hardy". None of the others were aware of this "gentlemans " identity, but I happened to know that he was the head of the " Murder Gang", which did not make me feel too comfortable. He then turned to me and said, " what do you do ? "I summoned all the coolness I could command, knowing the reputation of this gentleman, replying, I am a solicitor. Again he said " Ow". Do you know Duggan, the solicitor. He has accused me of torturing Kevin Barry. " Oh, yes ", said I,"I know Duggan professionally, just as I know Sir Henry Wynne", who was the Chief Crown Solicitor. With that, Captain King turned round and said "I have arrested him twice already". "No", I said, " you have not arrested me twice - you are wrong". That evidently knocked him out. Hardy then turned round and pointing to O Conaire, said, "Come along with us".He took O Conaire out and a dead silence ensued in the room. One lady who was in the party began screaming, " they,ll murder Padraig " but I said keep quiet, I am certain they have not gone away yet. I was correct. They came back with Padraig after about twenty minutes, so we were all delighted to see him again. As Sinclair was preparing to pour out a glass of whiskey, in they came again, and again asked Padraig to come out. This time we were certain that " he was for it". However, after what appeared to be an interminable delay, Padraig came back. We all spent an uneasy night, especially myself, as I knew the identity of Hardy and could not communicate it to the others. I may mention that Hardy had a limp and, in order to disguise it, walked very quickly so that it might not be noticed. It would, of course, lead to his identification and, needless to say, he was very much sought after by Michael Collins, not exactly for "social reasons" un- quote.
Interesting, as it shows that those in the know feared these officers as they were experts in their own right, they were top of the list to be taken out but were always one step ahead of their counter parts, they must have had that sixth sense, that special quality that makes certain men stand out and survive in what was a very dirty war for both sides. I wonder what or whom they were after, its a long way out from Dublin Castle.
C.S.M
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Thursday 21 April 11 16:00 BST (UK)
Thanks CPM, I have added that stuff to King and Hardy

King and Hardy were on raids most days, or indeed two or three. I don't think one can necessarily read too much into one raid, but they certainly were the main interrogators in Dublin Castle
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: gkenny on Friday 20 May 11 14:35 BST (UK)
This might be of interest to some here. I have put online a small collection of documents, letters, photographs and postcards as well as a substantial scrapbook mostly put together during independence era Ireland.

It belonged to Vincent (Vinny) Byrne of the Irish Volunteers and Michael Collins' Squad :

http://www.militaria-archive.com/independence/vinny-byrne.html

Included in the documents are the following, which I believe may relate to Major Charles Milne Cholmeley Dowling shot by Michael Collins Squad at 28 Pembroke Street on Bloody Sunday, 21 November 1920. This is a guess based purely on the name and the fact it originates from Tom Keogh.

(http://www.militaria-archive.com/independence/vb-docu/content/bing/images/large/Vincent_Byrne_Scrapbook_212.jpg)

(http://www.militaria-archive.com/independence/vb-docu/content/bing/images/large/Vincent_Byrne_Scrapbook_213.jpg)

If anyone can clarify the backgroung to that document or add any information to any of the other items there please get in touch either by pm or via the email address link on the site.

*Please note the moderators do not need to remove the pictures for copyright reasons (as happened previously) as I own the site and materials and am posting here for educational /research reasons.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Sunday 22 May 11 11:59 BST (UK)
Many thanks gKenny for posting that information and your website on Vinnie Byrne, its gives a great insight of the man and I look forward to looking through all the pictures and stories you have accumulated, my own grandfather and some of his brothers were members of "E" Co.2nd Battalion and would have known Vinny personally, in fact Vinny and members of the Old Dublin Brigade draped the flag and were guard of honour at my grandfathers funeral.
Are you related to Vinny ?
CSM
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: gkenny on Sunday 22 May 11 13:26 BST (UK)
Hello CSM man, no I am not related to Vinny Byrne at all.

If you can add any names to the people in the photographs or clarify any information in the  documents or scrapbok please let me know. I hope you find it as interesting as I have.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Sunday 12 June 11 08:29 BST (UK)
Good morning Corisande, came across this report in the Birmingham Post ref - Bloody Sunday quote -

"At 38, Upper Mount Street, the assailants were a party of about twenty armed men, who entered when the door was opened by a servant, who was asked if Mr. Aime's was in. She replied " Yes" The raiders then visited the front room on the first floor, where Lieutenant Bennett was.They took himinto a back room, where Mr.Aime's slept. The servant heard shots, and after a little while, the men left. The servant then rushed downstairs, and saw the two men lying dead. She raised an alarm, and a military officer, who had been sleeping in the house, came downstairs." un-quote

I have never come across another officer staying in the house before, and if he was a Secret Service man, we will probably never find out who he was.

The I.R.A. didn't know he was there, likewise with Carew and his batman living directly opposite until they opened fire on the team making their escape.

I agree with what you say on your P.R.B. site, that these men didn't get into the news because they were good at their jobs and all credit is due to them on their cover, disguise and how they conducted themselves and not  become exposed to the enemy.it what was a "dirty war" for both sides.

From your own posts corisande, there seems to be a number of these Secret Service men that went undetected and slipped under the radar, and because they were Secret Service men, nobody knows the full story.

CSM
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Sunday 12 June 11 08:37 BST (UK)
The problem I have is that Dublin at that time was full of British Officers and ex-British officers, most given no name for obvious reasons.. Viz Mrs W's book, it was difficult for them to get lodgings, so they did tend to congregate in houses that would accept them. It is virtually impossible to find out anything without a number of clues. Trouble is that even the "secret" Military Inquests have the names of the witnesses etched out, so that instead of a name it is just "Witness 1"

If you look at Bowen's press cuttings, Bowen shared his lodgings with another ex-RAF officer, but I have been unable to find out who it was, even though there is a lot more to go on there, given Bowen's immediate past service in Lithuania and Russia

What I am doing is just adding small clues as I get them and hope that one dau a fuller picture will emerge.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Wednesday 06 July 11 14:52 BST (UK)
Hello corisande, can you tell me anything about Count Sevigne, David Neligan mentions him in his book "The Spy in the Castle" and states that in 1921 he was head of the British Secret Service.

I always thought Ormonde de L,Epee Winter, code name " O " was head, or are they one and the same person ? or was one head of the Secret Service and the other head of British Intelligence.

CSM
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Wednesday 06 July 11 15:19 BST (UK)
British Intelligence was set up in a completely brainless way that encouraged turf wars and led to a diminution in their effectiveness

 My take on Winter on this link  (http://www.cairogang.com/other-people/british/castle-intelligence/castle-intelligance.html)

In addition to that  Basil Thompson (link)  (http://www.cairogang.com/other-people/british/castle-intelligence/thomson/thomson.html) ran a deep operation out of London (Bowen was one) with said to be 100 agents in Ireland

I have seen that reference to Sevigne and it may or may not be true. The senior men were good at keeping themselves out of the news
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Wednesday 06 July 11 17:41 BST (UK)
Very interesting corisande, you have put in some stirling research on the Secret Service and Intelligence departments.

David Neligan mentions Count Sevigne again - quote -

When in London in 1921 I visited the Captain at his flat. Count Sevigne shot himself in a London hotel. Suicide is a Secret - Service mans occupational disease. After he,d left here he worked for the Northern Ireland Government for a while.  un - quote.

What makes you think he was Count ADR. Salis ?

Do you think skulduggery is afoot here, surely there would be a report in The Times  or a foot print of him somewhere, if as you say, he really was who he said he was.

CSM
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: corisande on Wednesday 06 July 11 17:59 BST (UK)
Usually Intelligence pull most info. It tends to be a tell tale if there is say no MIC nor anything on London Gazette nor in Nat Archives

Thompson was good at making men disappear. I don't claim to be right about any of this, I just log the info away and occasionally a snippet comes up that is enough to open the case up on that chap  :)

No Sevigne on UK deaths for example. You could trawl the Times for gun deaths, in hotels at that time. They tended to avoid the word "suicide" which adds to the difficulty
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: GoldenGirl61 on Monday 19 September 11 02:57 BST (UK)
My Grandfather David Golden and My Great Uncle  Joe Leonard (Lily Leonard , Joes sister married my Grandfather)  were part of the uprising and worked with Michael Collins. Just wanting to know more about Joe Leonard. I know he was one of the 12 Apostles. Someone named simokav posted on this site and said he was related to Joe. If anyone has info let me know.
Thanks
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: Gary Deering on Monday 19 September 11 05:32 BST (UK)
Hi Golden Girl, Get yourself a copy of "In the legion of the vanguard" by John A Pinkman it mentions Joe Leonard in it a few times ( he comes across as a good officer), Also there is a facebook group The Burning of the Custom House,theres a few pictures there of Joe,Joe also made a withness statement so that will tell you lots in his own words.Gary
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: gkenny on Monday 19 September 11 11:39 BST (UK)
I believe your grandfather David Golden was a friend of Vinny Byrne (member of Michael Collins Squad).   You might be interested to see a christmas card from him to Vinny in 1918 :

http://www.militaria-archive.com/independence/vinny-byrne.html

http://www.militaria-archive.com/independence/vb-scrapb1/content/Vincent_Byrne_Scrapbook_053_large.html

(http://www.militaria-archive.com/independence/vb-scrapb1/content/bing/images/large/Vincent_Byrne_Scrapbook_053.jpg)

Also a picture of David Thomas Golden, junior of Chicago, whose father was a leading member of the battalion and is now residing in Chicago.

(http://www.militaria-archive.com/independence/vb-scrapb2/content/bing/images/large/Vincent_Byrne_Scrapbook_268.jpg)

(Moderators please do not remove pictures as I run that website).
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: GoldenGirl61 on Monday 19 September 11 18:53 BST (UK)
O my goodness! Yes that is my grandfather! In the lower picture ,the man on the right is my father, also David Thomas Golden! Any more info you have on my Granddad or Joe Leonard my great uncle I would so appreciate!!I would love to hear of the friendships my granddad had and who Vinny Byrne was.
I have a picture of my Grandad in uniform with two other men I will scan and post asap. One of them might be Vinny. I will ask my Dad.
Thanks a million!
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: gkenny on Monday 19 September 11 20:58 BST (UK)
Glad that is useful, your Grandfather is also mentioned on P111 of 'The Squad: and the Intelligence Operations of Michael Collins' by T.Ryle Dwyer:

http://www.amazon.com/Squad-Intelligence-Operations-Michael-Collins/dp/1856354695

It's a brief mention of him being the driver on an operation to raid soldiers and sentries at the Kings Inns in Dublin (for weapons) on 1st June 1920, it was an operation involving Collins' Squad and Dublin IRA.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: GoldenGirl61 on Tuesday 20 September 11 14:01 BST (UK)
Thanks so much gkenny!
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: GoldenGirl61 on Tuesday 20 September 11 14:09 BST (UK)
Thanks for the info Gary Deering. I have seen pictures of Joe Leonard. My cousin is the spitting image of him, very tall and slender. I will check out the facebook page you mentioned.Thanks again!
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: Gary Deering on Tuesday 20 September 11 23:22 BST (UK)
Hi Golden girl, No problem with the advice join the group on Facebook,Its open to anyone with any interest in the Battle of the Custom house (as they called it at the time) I am sure I have few pictures of Joe in various books I am sure most are online anyway. One question I would like to know is where did Joe leonard work in his later years ? was he another Irish sweepstakes man as a few of the Squad seemed to end up there.Gary
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: Tonhil on Thursday 13 October 11 18:18 BST (UK)
Hi Corisande, do you ever hold 'lectures' on 'Collins', 'The Squad', '1916' etc.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Thursday 13 October 11 23:59 BST (UK)
Hello corisande, been reading the book you recommended, Executed for Ireland by May Moran.
I would be interested in your thoughts on Patrick Moran being in Upper Mount Street with an unidentified person on the Saturday evening before Bloody Sunday.

From the W.S. mentioned we know that P.Moran was present at 100 Seville Place on the Saturday evening and was given his instructions for the following morning by Sean Russell. We also know that details came in late that two of the S.S.Officers on the list had moved from 22 Lower Mount Street to 38 Upper Mount Street, Ame's and Bennett.

Could it be that P.Moran was asked or volunteered to go to 38 Upper Mount Street to check out the location or confirm details of this and was seen by Private Lawrence, Major Carew,s batman but managed to convince Lawrence of his story about the "distressed lady " who could have been the maid.

I cannot think of any other reason why P.Moran would be on the streets after curfew, especially in Upper Mount Street, when he was in charge of the operation at the Gresham Hotel the following morning, it does not make sense.

P.Moran and the other person did not report the incident or get a message to the volunteers who were to be involved in the Upper Mount Street operation to warn them of Lawrence, so it was not deemed important, perhaps they did not see where he had come from, I cannot quite get my head round this one. Let me know what you make of it.

CSM
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Sunday 30 October 11 12:16 GMT (UK)
Hello corisande, message is on this site, last page, let me know if you get it.

CSM
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: GoldenGirl61 on Monday 31 October 11 00:21 GMT (UK)
Hi Gary
Sorry this took so long.
My father said that Joe was an electrician and he passed away around 1940.
I will post some documents and medals my father just gave me that were my grandfathers from the uprising. Just have to upload them.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: tumbles on Monday 19 March 12 11:52 GMT (UK)
Just doing some family research and looking for a photo of sean tumbleton, if anyone had one or had information were i might find one it would be greatly appreciated, thanks
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: Baily122 on Thursday 19 April 12 22:14 BST (UK)
Hi, regarding Edward Byrne of Melrose avenue, Fairview, I am his niece living in Dublin. My father was his youngest brother Robert Byrne. This is the Edward Byrne who died 'sudden' in co, Clare and who is buried in the Republican plot in Glasnevin cemetery.  As far as I am aware he drowned in co. Clare.  I went to visit his grave today and that of my grandparents in glasnevin.  I.am most interested to hear from anybody who thinks they may be related to me. 
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: David Corri on Wednesday 06 June 12 18:57 BST (UK)
GoldenGirl61

I may have been named after your Grandad David Golden. If its the same person your grandad allowed my dad Haydn Corri to take on the permanent alias as David Golden in Ballykinlar Interment Camp. This saved my Dad's life as he was on a Capital charge for his part in the "Bloody Sunday" operation and was "on the run" within in the camp. It brought the identification system into disrepute. It also put David Golden into constant danger of discovery.

Could it be possible that your grandad was the same David Golden. The alias was so convincing that some of my Dad's friends referred to him as David decades after the war was over and I was named in honour of David Golden as late as the 50's.

David Corri
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: Gary Deering on Wednesday 06 June 12 22:54 BST (UK)
Hi David are you any relation of Billy Corri ? of the ASU later Commandant of Kilmanham Gaol  during the Civil War ? the reason I ask was he was at my great Uncles funeral who was a Squad member.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: David Corri on Thursday 07 June 12 07:46 BST (UK)
Gary Deering

Thanks for the Question Gary. Bill Corri was my uncle and being the older of the, was my dad's role model. An interesting turn of events was that my dad Haydn was an inmate of Kilmainham while Bill was the Governor.

Dad told me the story that a warder told him that his brother wished to see him in the cell. Dad replied "I'll see my brother but I won't see the Governor".

I have attached a photo of Bill at Kilmainham.

Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: Gary Deering on Thursday 07 June 12 16:35 BST (UK)
Hi David, Thanks for the reply, I met an old man a few months ago who knew Billy well ( from the old Dublin Brigade Club ), he told me that Billy was ASU which turned out to be correct & he also told me that Billy told him when the Treaty was signed the ASU where in the Dublin Mountains training !.

My own Grand Father was in Kilmainham as a warder late 23 / early 24 ! when he served with the 16 Batt. Gary

PS great pic I had seen it before,but not the full version including the Lewis gun ! I dropped a copy of that down to the man who knew Billy a couple of months ago.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: gkavanagh on Thursday 07 June 12 16:56 BST (UK)
It may have been mentioned already, but I have a clear recollection of Vinny Byrne being interviewed for some R.T.E. programme about his time in the Squad and in paticular about Bloody Sunday. If you contact the R.T.E. archive, I'm sure they will locate it. Also, the Grangemockler G.A.A. club, of which Hogan was a member, published a booklet to commemorate the 75th anniversary and it's well worth reading for the many firsthand accounts recounted.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: David Corri on Saturday 09 June 12 23:48 BST (UK)

The following are quotes from Haydn Corri in regard to the his involvement in Bloody Sunday.

Is it possible to identify the the target or house from this.

Is there anything you have come accross to corroborate this.

He was in B Company 3rd Battallion & 5th Battallion. Engineers Dublin Brigade.


"My assignment brought me into the very centre of activities and when our work was finished we had a short unexpected delay which almost proved fatal.   Troops from Portobello Bks. were closing in on us from Lesson Street end while Tans and Auxiliaries were massing at the Mount Street end.   I had been given the use of 2 cars, one stationed at Baggot St. Bridge and the other stationed at Mount Street Bridge. I was given strict orders that those cars were only to be used for taking away wounded and if my party reached those points without casualties I was to dismiss them.   After dismissing the Baggott St. Bridge car we proceeded along the canal towards Mount St. Bridge, this was after the shooting in Mount St. and after Frank Teeling had been wounded and captured. The Tans were crowding into Northumberland Road getting out of their cars but making no attempt to cross the Bridge, just firing into the air and behaving like wild Indians.   The position from our point of view looked hopeless.   We had a short consultation and agreed that it no longer served any purpose to conceal our arms and that we could cross he road with guns at the ready.   We also decided that it was not to be everyman for himself and that if one fell we would all stand by and fight; this would have been a very short fight as at this time we had reloaded our guns and none of us had more than 3 or 4 spare rounds of ammunition.   However we reached the far side safely and here with all the milling, killing and shooting sat the driver of our second car calmly waiting for orders; this man deserves great praise as owing to our delay he could have reasonably concluded that we had all become casualties further up or had been forced to take another direction.   Just as I dismissed this car the Tans realized that something was happening.   They crowded over the parapet of the Bridge and fired volley upon volley after us.   We had no alternative but to return the fire and by the time we had emptied our guns we had reached the corner of Grand Canal St., from here it was obvious that the entire area was being quickly surrounded and as our guns were useless now owing to lack of ammunition I relieved my party of their arms and dismissed them and proceeded alone to find a safe temporary dump for them..   My own Coy. Capt. afterwards accused me of having deliberately delayed my retreat so that I could engage the enemy and if I had not been arrested so soon after I am sure I would have had to face a charge of exposing my party to unnecessary danger. "

"On our retreat we overtook a policeman who was making straight for Lad Lane Police Stations whether he was merely reporting for duty or was rushing to tell of something he had seen made little difference to us.   We just had to delay long enough to remove his bootlaces and tie him by the arms to a railing on Fitzwilliam Square. This policeman later failed or refused to recognise me in Kilmainham Prison.  The reason that they did not cross the bridge was that when the shootings started in Mount Street two Auxiliary Cadets were sent back on foot to Beggers Bush Barracks for reinforcements.   These two men were captured on Northumberland Road and taken into a garden and shot.   When reinforcements eventually left Beggers Bush this was the first incident that they met and thinking that it was the only scene of action they did not proceed further for some time, this certainly saved myself and party from destruction as otherwise we would have walked straight into the main body of reinforcements."

"I was arrested on Tuesday night and placed in a lorry with or 14 other prisoners, 3 of which were destined to give their lives for Ireland in a few short months time.  They were Tom Whelan who was executed, David Kelly brother of Tom Kelly, Lord Mayor of Dublin and Bernard Hanlon of my own Coy.  David Kelly was released owing to ill health and Bernard Hanlon was released owing to his extreme youth."
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: Gary Deering on Sunday 10 June 12 17:22 BST (UK)
Hi David, have you any idea when that picture of Kilmainham was taken ? My Grand father was a warden there during the Civil war he was around 23 at the time, Third in from the left standing looks like him. I am just wondering  if dates match from when the picture was taken to when my Grand Father was stationed there.I have a copy of this picture but the detail is nowhere as good as your scan.  Gary 
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: David Corri on Wednesday 13 June 12 07:11 BST (UK)
Gary
 
Sorry for delay. I am trying to track down the date of the photograph through another relative.

David
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: chinapaddy on Tuesday 27 November 12 12:29 GMT (UK)
In the above photo.. which one is Commandant William Corri?      Here is a later photo with Eamon DeValera, inside the cell where Dev was held in Kilmainham.

http://digital.ucd.ie/view/ivrla:19879
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: Happy Chappy :-) on Thursday 29 November 12 11:47 GMT (UK)
Hi All

RTE1 Prog  "My Civil War" -  Dec 3rd  9:30pm ; will feature one of
Michael Collins  "Squad" :-)

Cheers
HC
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: Gary Deering on Tuesday 22 January 13 01:17 GMT (UK)
In the above photo.. which one is Commandant William Corri?      Here is a later photo with Eamon DeValera, inside the cell where Dev was held in Kilmainham.

http://digital.ucd.ie/view/ivrla:19879

He is sitting down second from the right, 3 stripes on his cuff.

Gary
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: Pangur on Thursday 20 March 14 15:29 GMT (UK)
Emer, are you still checking this site? I have more information that will be important to you about Piaras Beaslai and Lily Mernin. Please respond so that I can add to this.
                                   
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: bry4n0 on Friday 29 August 14 21:46 BST (UK)
Hi there,

That very picture hangs in my mother's hallway in Glasgow, sunny Scotland, as Captain William Corri was her grandfather. I believe that would mean that David Corri would be a not so distant relative to myself. We keep in regular contact with family in Ireland, one being a David Corri, Grandson to Captain William Corri also.

I believe my mother has been given more information about 'the squad' through certain books that have been written recently.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: Gary Deering on Friday 29 August 14 23:06 BST (UK)
Was Billy Corri not ASU man & later a member of the Guard (Squad & ASU joined after the Custom House)? I have never seen him listed as Squad member. I spoke to an old man who knew him a while back, he told me that Billy Corri told him when the treaty was signed the ASU where sent up the mountains to "train".The impression I got was, they where sent up the mountains in case they disagreed with the treaty & broke the truce.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: bry4n0 on Friday 29 August 14 23:19 BST (UK)
Honestly, I dont know. I am referring to 'squad' as in the picture. Its something ive always meant to look into but never got round to. I do remember being told a story of DeValera being served meals in Kilmainham with silverware etc and my great-grandfather raging at this and ordering he be treated as any other prisoner. I would need to ask about any other info. I also believe that he and his brother ended up on different sides if that makes sense.

I stumbled upon this site by accident after typing his name into Google out of interest so dont know too much. :)
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: bry4n0 on Friday 29 August 14 23:23 BST (UK)
Was Billy Corri not ASU man & later a member of the Guard (Squad & ASU joined after the Custom House)? I have never seen him listed as Squad member.

What did this mean Gary? That he essentially changed his political stance?
 
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: Gary Deering on Saturday 30 August 14 05:37 BST (UK)
Sorry if there is any confussion, Ok during the War of Independence Billy Corri was a member of the Dublin ASU. That means he was paid 4 pounds 10 shillings a week & his job was to take part in as many ambushes as they could against the British forces. The Squad (this is what I thought you meant) where a seperate grouping again paid 4 pounds 10 shillings a week, there job was more political assination also special jobs Micheal Collins wanted done, both did do jobs together but where separate units with different officers & bases. Billy went Freestate in other words pro treaty during the Civil War, he was as in the picture in charge of Kilmainham Gaol during the Civil War & your correct to say his brother Hayden served there as a prisoner after being captured fighting for the Anti treaty side in the Civil War. I hope this clears it up ! BTW Billy Corri was at my Great Uncles funeral also ASU & later squad, thats why I have an interest in Billy as they must have been friends.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: GCoghlan on Monday 22 June 15 17:11 BST (UK)
Hi Gary,

I just happened to find this forum post by accident and noticed you mentioning a man who knew Bill Corri through the Old Dublin Brigade Club and wonder if it might be the same group ( Association of the Old Dublin Brigade - AODB) started by my grandfather, FX Coghlan, after the large scale demobilisation in 1924/25. Due to family circumstances he stepped down as president in 1927/8 and Piaras Béaslaí took over.

He had been Captain of the Rathfarnham company (E, 4th) through the War of independence and was then made Commandant of the Battalion at the split and organised it for the Free State army. He was active in trying to organise the men after the Civil War was over, to provide opportunities to network and share information on the pension procedures.

He would have been at many of the funerals and commemorations around Dublin up to his own death in 1970. So curious to know if the gentleman you had met might have known him.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: David Corri on Thursday 02 July 15 21:19 BST (UK)


Hi bry4n0

It's David Corri nephew of Captain William Corri,  and son of Haydn Corri, B Coy 3rd Batt & 3 Coy 5th Battallion (Engineers). My nephew, Eamon's son and Bill's grandnephew, is also David Corri but I did'nt realize that there was another David here.
 
It's interesting to think that Bill has a granddaughter in Scotland, as the first Irish Corri, also Haydn, was born in Edinburgh and was brother to Sophia Corri, the Scottish classical composer. Both were children of Domenico Corri a publisher of music in Edinburgh and London.

Hi there,

That very picture hangs in my mother's hallway in Glasgow, sunny Scotland, as Captain William Corri was her grandfather. I believe that would mean that David Corri would be a not so distant relative to myself. We keep in regular contact with family in Ireland, one being a David Corri, Grandson to Captain William Corri also.

I believe my mother has been given more information about 'the squad' through certain books that have been written recently.
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: xkm on Sunday 21 February 16 20:29 GMT (UK)
My great is discussed in the booklet about Irish Military History.  It is signed by Patrick Colgan, Major.  It is dated 1953.  It is reported that my great uncle Owen Slowey assumed  the identity of a Mr. Corri, who was wanted by the authorities, probably to be executed. Have you seen the book? I have a copy.  The name is spelled "Aiden" but I think it may be a typo and it should be Haydn?  I would like to connect with any person related to that Mr. Corri. Xavier K. McDonnell, San Diego, CA 
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: xkm on Thursday 10 March 16 06:34 GMT (UK)
Hi David

My great Uncle Owen Slowey from Drogheda was at Ballykinlar with Haydn Corri.   I think he is referred to as "Aiden Corri" in the military history written and signed by Patrick Colgan  in 1953 and in the book "Prisoners of War-Ballykinlar Interment Camp 1920-1921"  written by Liam O Duibhir.  According to that book and the Military History booklet I found online, after Patrick Colgan handed over Mr. Whelan and he was hung in Feb 1921, when the authorities came for your relative, Aiden Corri he was ready with an imposter who would assume Aiden's identity.  The person who agreed to assume the name Aiden Corri was my great Uncle Owen Slowey. My great uncle was sent to Mountjoy, where he was "half-hung", beaten and suffered from some form of water torture.  After that, a RIC recognized him as Owen Slowey from Drogheda, and they sent him back to Ballykinlar.  A year later, after he was released, his 22 year old sister Alice Slowey  was shot and killed in Drogheda.  The officers shot through the door of her fiancé's family wire factory as she was coming to open the door and she was killed.  Their pub was right across the street and she was waked there.   Their oldest sister was my grandmother, Rose Slowey, who married Ned McDonnell from Slane and they moved to the Bronx in 1928.  Owen Slowey from the camp came to NY in 1929 and had a hard time with the depression.  He lost contact with my grandmother, the last we heard he was working for the railroad in New Haven in 1940.  Well, we just found out he died of TB in 1952 in Rochester.  WE never knew all this until the last few months.  I saw that your relative Haydn also assumed the identity of Owen Slowey.  So interesting.  My father, Rose's son (86) in Cape Cod Mass and his brother Owen (76) in Ct, would love to learn more about Hayden Corri and communicate with you, if possible.   Would love to hear from you! Xavier McDonnell, San Diego CA   
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: will1890 on Tuesday 19 April 16 11:54 BST (UK)
Welcome to Rootschat and thanks for putting that up (takes some people a lifetime to master posting attachments)

Just to point this out, and it is confusing, there is both a Edward J Byrne and a Edmund Leo Byrne involved with The Squad. For Edmund Leo Byrne see an earlier post here by Alan8hughes .

I say this out of no deep knowledge of the Byrnes, but because I am (still) trying to see who was where on Bloody Sunday, 21 Nov 1920. I know of course what Vinnie Byrne was doing, but can anyone fill in if the movements of Edmund and Edward are known that day, and were they both known to have been in the Squad

Thought I had come across the name recently. See this thread about the shooting of Ryan in a Dublin pub http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,487706.15.html

 This link is to the details of the shooting  (http://www.cairogang.com/other-people/british/castle-intelligence/thomson/ryan/ryan.html) that I have and one of the men was "Eddie Byrne", but which Eddie
did thomas and michael duffy have a brother called william
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: chinapaddy on Friday 08 December 17 21:45 GMT (UK)
It may have been mentioned already, but I have a clear recollection of Vinny Byrne being interviewed for some R.T.E. programme about his time in the Squad and in paticular about Bloody Sunday.

You are correct. A copy of the short interview is on youtube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUQHfqL5aqg
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: chinapaddy on Sunday 24 June 18 17:36 BST (UK)
Hi David, have you any idea when that picture of Kilmainham was taken ? My Grand father was a warden there during the Civil war he was around 23 at the time, Third in from the left standing looks like him. I am just wondering  if dates match from when the picture was taken to when my Grand Father was stationed there.I have a copy of this picture but the detail is nowhere as good as your scan.  Gary 
William Corri was Governor of Kilmainham Gaol from May 1923 to November 1923 . so the photo must be 1923
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: chinapaddy on Wednesday 31 October 18 11:40 GMT (UK)
Obituary from "An tÓGlách" Army Journal Autumn issue 1966

As  we  go  to  press  we  deeply  regret  to  announce  the
death  of  Comdt.  Bill  Corri,  who  died  27  September  1966,
while  visiting  his  daughter  in  Manchester.  Bill  was,  of
course,  a  member  of  the  Active  Service  Unit,  and  Captain
of  ‘E’  Coy.,  1st  Bait.,  Old  Dublin  Brigade.  He  was  a  Vice-
President  of the  A.O.D.B.  He  was  interred  in  Manchester.
May  he  rest  in  peace !


What does A.O.D.B. stand for?
Title: Re: Micheal Collins and 'The Squad'.
Post by: capel street man on Wednesday 31 October 18 14:32 GMT (UK)

Hello chinapaddy

I know sometimes the A.O. stood for Ancient Order but the D.B. has me beat, it could be a religious order

I am sure someone on the forum will know

Good luck

CSM