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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Suffolk => Topic started by: Steph on Sunday 13 September 09 17:17 BST (UK)
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Hi
This is a bit of a long shot as this is in the realms of medieval genealogy but I have traced my Wenhams of Sussex back via the Visitation of Sussex (http://www.archive.org/stream/visitationscoun00owengoog#page/n105/mode/1up)
which has Richard Wenham at the start of the family tree. He is simply stated as being of Wenham Hall. His 2 children were Thomas Wenham of More Hall, Ninfield, described as the son and heir of Richard and the first to come into the county (Sussex). His other child is an unnamed daughter who married a Bruse 'with whom he had Wenham Hall'. Research has shown that the Brewse family held Wenham Hall in Suffolk so I am assuming Richard came from here. I have tried many of the sites which refer to the Brewse family but have found no reference.
Has anyone come across the Wenham family before?
Thanks
Steph
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Hi Steph,
I will PM you the email address of the Capel St May + Little and Great Wenham Local History Recorder*, she may be able to tell you more.
Wenham Hall was anciently the seat of the Brews/Brewse family, followed by the Thurston family. It is in Little Wenham.
In the book, 'Suffolk Houses - a study of domestic architecture' there is a section on the Hall, including an aerial view and supposition of what the hall floor plan was originally.
The book is by Eric Sandon with drawings by John Western, and I just checked a well know supplier of books on-line A***** and several are available - the book has been reprinted in recent years. You may of course be able to obtain an inter-library copy.
Pat ...
Recorders' Secretary - Suffolk Local History Council
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I have just read through the notes on Wenham Hall and found
..... this survey of the property was, according to P A Crisp, made by Robert Brewse, the grandson of th first Brewse who acquired the property by marriage in 1440 ............
The Crisp brothers bought the property in a very run down state in abut 1884.
Pat ...
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Thanks for that.
I have no specific dates for Richard but have his birth c 1440 which puts him alongside the earlier Brewses. (I've had to guess at generational gaps of twenty odd years. John Wenham was born about 1480 at More Hall/Morehayle and died 29 May 1568. His father, Thomas, the first son and heir in Sussex I've guessed at c1460 and therefore his father Richard c1440).
I am certainly interested in contacting the Local History Recorder.
Many thanks for your help
Regards
Steph
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Hi Steph
Ive only just come across the Wenham name myself and I too it appears am a descendant of Richard Wenham.
Im trying to piece together the connection between then Wenham and the Brewse families but not having much luck at the moment. If you come across any information can you either email me, or post it here.
Cheers
Nathan.
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Steph
Many thanks for reporting the link to the Sussex Visitations. I am putting together some material to check if I get to Lewes in the next couple of months and had traced a potential line back from Elizabeth Wenham born in Hooe 1750. The dates and names SEEM to fit together but the problem with internet research is inevitably proving the links..... When I got to John Wenham and his possible wife Alice Elliott from Godalming Surrey I really began to have doubts! The Visitation sugggests that it may be accurate after all. Thanks again :)
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Richard Wenham of Wenham Hall is my 16x grandfather.
i have know gathered 680 Wenham's on the tree. (some strange branches that I need to look into).
But I too am confused as to Richard Wenham of Wenham Hall how he should be so titled in that way because in the visitations on Sussex it states that " a daughter (Richards) married to ..... bruse with whom hee had Wenham Hall".
Looking at the history of Wenham Hall, no Wenham name comes up ???
Graham
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I know. This is really frustrating. I have been trying to find out more about the Bruse/Brewse family during the mid 1400s but nothing so far.
My alternative route when I look for family at this time is via land transactions. I have used the National Archives Documents Online and come up with a number of Wenhams in the area. If you do a search you will find references to Sir John De Wenham (amongst others) mid 13thc. as witness to land transactions relating to Dodnash Priory, Bradedfield (Bradfield), Bentley, Capel St. Mary - all in the Wenham Hall locality.
There are also refs to William De Wenham, Sir Ermethard De Wenham (plus Deonisia his daughter). From the regular occurence of Wenhams as witnesses to various land transactions at this period it shows that the Wenham family did exist in the area of Wenham Hall and were definitely of some standing but trying to get that final link has been tantalisingly elusive. I am wondering whether there is some link between the names Wenham and Wyndham as there are also Wyndhams in the area.
One big puzzle.
Steph
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Further to my earlier reply, you may be able to make something of the following:
A digitised version of The Manors of Suffolk http://www.archive.org/stream/cu31924092579592#page/n119/mode/2up
Suffolk Feet of Fines
http://www.archive.org/stream/cu31924029784992#page/n0/mode/2up
Hope the links work.
It may even be that the name Wenham was adopted or used as an alternative to one of the other 'names' in the area, eg the Holebrok, Villibus etc
Steph
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Hi,
This may not be any help to anyone tracing the Wneham's but there was a Sir William Brewse of Stinton Hall Norfolk and Wenhall Suffolk who was born about 1450. I believe he was a descendant of the de Braose family.
Jill
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Hi
Sorry for the spelling mistakes, I am having a brain gone on it's hols day. That should have been Wenham, Suffolk.
Jill
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Hii!
I have just found out that I too am a descendant of one Richard Wenham of Little Wenham Hall, 1448.
I am not sure if there is any connection but his son is Thomas Wenham born 1465 and grandson, John Wenham, c1514 (though this would mean Thomas was 49 when he had him so it unlikely this is John's exact DOB.
I have not come across a unknown daughter yet, but anything that relates to the Brewse family would be useful since whenever I type Wenham into google it comes up with Brewse.
Any more information would be highly useful,
Cheers ;D ;D
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Hi Anna-Suzie
The de Brewse were originally the de Broase family from Briouze, Normandy. It looks like the main line died out in the 1300's with a daughter who married John Mowbray. A member of a cadet branch of the family was Sir William de Brewse of Stinton Norfolk and Wenham Parva, Suffolk whose daughter Amy married Sir Roger Townshend of Raynham, Norfolk, she died in 1551. There are numerous spellings of the de Brewse name.
The most famous or infamous of this family were William de Braose who was responsible for the Abergavenny massacre in 1175, one called Black William who was hanged by Prince Llewellyn in 1230 and another William and his mother who were imprisoned and starved to death by King John.
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Hi Steph
Can you please contact me about Wenham family and I believe you are also researching Dancer
Regards
Debbie
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Like everybody else I am stuck with Richard Wenham. There are some later Wenhams regularly recorded as 'poor' in my husband's family tree and I originally traced the connection in a book at East Sussex archives but have had no opportunity for further more localised research....
A printed version of the Visitations of Sussex is available online. One version lists the Wenham family beginning with Richard Wenham of Wenham Hall who appears to have had 2 children;
1) "Thomas Wenham sonn & heire was the first yt came into Sussex". He appears to have married "...d. of French of Strene", and to be the father of 'John Wenham of Morehayle in com. Sussex', and
2) "A daughter marid to.....Bruse wth whom hee had Wenham Hall".
Has anybody been able to see the original document and perhaps attempt to fill in the gaps? It may be a bit of family hyperbole but it does seem that the Wenhams believed that there was a connection with the Bruse family. The clue seems to be the the daughter but who was she? I have had a quick look at the Manors of Suffolk (thanks Steph!) but there do not seem to be any obvious candidates. Could it be that the Richard who came to Sussex was originally known as Richard OF Wenham.... If that was the case his family name could have been anything......! Oh! dear........
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Anyone who has attempted to follow the trail of the Wenhams as shown in the Visitations of Sussex, may be interested in the following.
John Wenham (c.1694-1768) later known as Sir John Wenham of Beckenham, Kent commissioned maps of land he owned including Hamsey in Sussex. The Wenham coat of arms, as described in the Visitations, is depicted. Source: National Archives HAMSEY SHR/2849 1752. His father was Sir Thomas Wenham; baptized in Hailsham in 1663 and died in New York in 1709.
The John Wenham said to be 6 years old in 1634 at the time of the Visitations was the Rev. John Wenham of Hailsham who married Elizabeth Wynyard. (A brother Richard Wenham is shown in both the Visitations of Sussex and London where he was said to be living in Farringdon Within and in the latter case his coat of arms has a star incorporated into the design to distinquish him from his brother, John, the male heir.)
The marriage settlement dd 1655 of John Wenham and Elizabeth Wynyard refers to John Wynyard of Westminster as being her brother. John Wynyard the grandfather, groom to the wardrobe of Elizabeth 1st and James 1st, married Susannah Stonehouse whose 2nd husband was Sir John Stafford. His parents, William Stafford and Dorothy Stafford, were distant cousins. William Stafford's 1st wife was Mary Boleyn, sister of Anne Boleyn, wife of Henry V111. (Kind of makes up for the lack of info regarding the Richard Wenham allegedly of Wenham Hall Little Wenham!)
Elizabeth Wynyard's grandson, Lt. Gen. John Wynyard made a will in 1752. In the event of his children's death, his estate was to go to his "kinsman, John Wenham". I believe this to be the Sir John Wenham of Beckenham mentioned above.
John Wenham and Elizabeth Wynyard had 3 known sons; John (c. 1657-1676), Rev. George Wenham of Rotherfield (c.1660-1736) and Sir Thomas Wenham (1663-1709). George Wenham's 1st wife was Mary Willett with whom he had a daughter, Hannah. She married the Rev. George Lewis of Rotherfield. I believe she may be the Hannah Lewis that is referred to in documentation with regard to the Wynyard family.
If anyone has details of any documentation to which the Wenham Coat of Arms was applied I would be grateful to have details.
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Anyone who has attempted to follow the trail of the Wenhams as shown in the Visitations of Sussex, may be interested in the following.
John Wenham (c.1694-1768) later known as Sir John Wenham of Beckenham, Kent commissioned maps of land he owned including Hamsey in Sussex. The Wenham coat of arms, as described in the Visitations, is depicted. Source: National Archives HAMSEY SHR/2849 1752. His father was Sir Thomas Wenham; baptized in Hailsham in 1663 and died in New York in 1709.
The John Wenham said to be 6 years old in 1634 at the time of the Visitations was the Rev. John Wenham of Hailsham who married Elizabeth Wynyard. (A brother Richard Wenham is shown in both the Visitations of Sussex and London where he was said to be living in Farringdon Within and in the latter case his coat of arms has a star incorporated into the design to distinquish him from his brother, John, the male heir.)
The marriage settlement dd 1655 of John Wenham and Elizabeth Wynyard refers to John Wynyard of Westminster as being her brother. John Wynyard the grandfather, groom to the wardrobe of Elizabeth 1st and James 1st, married Susannah Stonehouse whose 2nd husband was Sir John Stafford. His parents, William Stafford and Dorothy Stafford, were distant cousins. William Stafford's 1st wife was Mary Boleyn, sister of Anne Boleyn, wife of Henry V111. (Kind of makes up for the lack of info regarding the Richard Wenham allegedly of Wenham Hall Little Wenham!)
Elizabeth Wynyard's grandson, Lt. Gen. John Wynyard made a will in 1752. In the event of his children's death, his estate was to go to his "kinsman, John Wenham". I believe this to be the Sir John Wenham of Beckenham mentioned above.
John Wenham and Elizabeth Wynyard had 3 known sons; John (c. 1657-1676), Rev. George Wenham of Rotherfield (c.1660-1736) and Sir Thomas Wenham (1663-1709). George Wenham's 1st wife was Mary Willett with whom he had a daughter, Hannah. She married the Rev. George Lewis of Rotherfield. I believe she may be the Hannah Lewis that is referred to in documentation with regard to the Wynyard family.
If anyone has details of any documentation to which the Wenham Coat of Arms was applied I would be grateful to have details.
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hi I am on another site and looking up wenham and for some unknown reason i got myself on this site and i found you and a few others asking about Wenham of Wenham hall little Wenham.i must admit I am no clearer as to if this is an ancestor or not.My Grandmother was Edith Wenham 1883 married to john Edward Harding,my mother was Winifred Duffin (nee Harding ) I am more intrested in portraits of wenhams.
Regards Shirley
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Recently started researching our US family tree. Started by coming across a picture of Wenham Hall.
Most of the more recent Wenham's in Cleveland, Ohio are named Frederick. This traced back to a Arthur Jonathan Wenham Born in Sussex, England on September 8, 1884. This is where I have hit a roadblock. Even with the birthdate I haven't been able to trace Arthur's parents in Sussex. I have posted a Wenham tree on ancestry.com for our part of the family. I suspect we are related to many of the discussions here.
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hi I have no Arthur jonathan wenham in my tree born on this date.are you sure you have right name or right date as I have often gone wrong and had to retrace my steps.I only have George Ernest Wenham Born April 1884 in Etchingham Sussex. Also my ancestor was born in Wenham hall so If you could tell me the name you are under in ancestry i will look at yours.Or better still send me a message on there
regards shirley
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Here is the information from a census that I used and elsewhere on Ancestry I got the actual birthdate:Name: A. J. Wenham
Age: 55
Birth Year: abt 1825
Birthplace: England
Home in 1880: Cleveland, Cuyahoga, Ohio
Race: White
Gender: Male
Relation to Head of House: Self (Head)
Marital Status: Married
Spouse's Name: Melvina Wenham
Father's Birthplace: England
Mother's Birthplace: England
Neighbors: View others on page
Occupation: Wholesale Grocer
Cannot read/write:
Blind:
Deaf and Dumb:
Otherwise disabled:
Idiotic or insane:
.
Household Members:
Name Age
A. J. Wenham 55
Melvina Wenham 41
George Wenham 17
Grace Wenham 8
John Wenham 4
Emma Wenham 38
Here are some other ancestry records:
Name: Arthur Wenham
Birth: abt 1825 - England
Residence: 1870 - Cleveland Ward 10, Cuyahoga, Ohio, United States
Residence: Cleveland, Cuyahoga, Ohio
U.S., Find A Grave Index, 1600s-Current Birth, Marriage & Death
Name: A J Wenham
Death: 28 Sep 1885
England, Select Births and Christenings, 1538-1975 Birth, Marriage & Death
Name: Arthur Jonathan Wenham
Baptism: 8 Aug 1824 - Broadwater, Sussex, England
England & Wales Christening Records, 1530-1906 Birth, Marriage & Death
Name: Arthur Jonathan Wenham
Father: James Wenham
Baptism: 8 Aug 1824 - Broadwater by Worthing, Sussex, England
Other: 1824
Not knowing England very well The problem probably lies with me.
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Welcome wenhamt, the census details and information that you have is from the county of Sussex which is on the south coast of England, Little and Great Wenham are in the county of Suffolk which is in East Anglia an area of southish-east England.
You may find more help with your quest on the Sussex pages of this website.
By the way, for our counties think your states, then our counties are divided by parishes. ;)
However, knowing Rootschatters you may well have some help here too.
SM
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Thanks for the information. That does help me understand the two locations better. I knew they were separate but suspect the Wenhams from both areas are related.
Thanks, again. Tim
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it's 5 years since I first looked at this and I am not sure of anyone is still interested but what if......
The 1612 Visitation of Suffolk records that ‘Sir Thomas Brewse m Elizabeth da... of Debnam’. I was originally irritated at the omission of her father's name but googling 'Debnam' produced an interesting possibility/explanation. There were something like 5 Gilbert Debenhams who owned Wenham Hall before the arrival of the Brewse family. Elizabeth's father & brother were both MPs but were also known for their lawless behaviour (Have a look at www.historyof parliementonline for their biographies). Her brother Gilbert was eventually convicted of treason after the uprising associated with Perkin Warbeck 1491-1495. I've seen a suggestion that she eventually paid to reclaim some of the family land.... So.... Was the Thomas who first came into Sussex in fact a DEBENHAM, but quite happy to be known as Thomas from Wenham until that name eventually was accepted as his family name? I've always been surprised that his female descendants married into families with parliamentary & even Court connections, but the men were less prominent. Were they keeping a low profile?
I'd love to know what others think!
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According to Ancestry, Richard Wenham was my 16th great-grandfather, so I'm following all this with much interest. However, my first attempt at building the Ancestry tree resulted in William the Conqueror as my 45th ggf, which seems highly unlikely. I've also ended up related to Aethelwulf, King Alfred and assorted other persons of note, all highly dubious. I'm awaiting my DNA results but, bearing in mind some of the comments I've seen on this site, am now expecting something along the lines of those allergy tests that tell you little of worth. Hoping this isn't the case.
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Greetings Ditchling23 - I know what you mean! That is one reason that I have tried very hard to identify documents to support any potential links. Doing the research in the archives is difficult enough. Trying to do it online is even worse - one reason I put my speculation online, in the hope that somebody might have stumbled across some hard facts......!
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To: Spain
That's an interesting concept and quite possible all things considered. I have been researching the Wenhams for some time now and have never been able to throw any light on which Wenham allegedly married a Brewse and lived in Wenham Hall. Back to the drawing board! If I find anything that might support your suggestion, I'll get back to you.
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I have seen 2 versions of the Visitations of Sussex. Until recently I had referred to the one that indicated that John Wenham of Ninfield married Ann Needham who was the daughter of Sir Francis Needham of Sussex. I am now aware of the version that refers to Sir Francis Needham from Derby and this has led me to some interesting information. Sir Francis was known to be both of Melbourne House in Derby , Derbyshire and of Barking Hall “Barnham” and Darmsden in Suffolk as well as other districts. Melbourne House has been the home of two prime ministers and is open to the public; Barking Hall and Darmsden are situated only 12/17 miles from Little Wenham in Suffolk.
Sir Francis Needham died in 1638. There is a record dated 1639 held in the Ipswich, Suffolk, archives (ref: HA1/B/A/3/11) relating to a John Wenham of More Hall, Sussex, who sought to execute a judgement against Sir Francis Needham with regard to Barking and Darmsden. As to why I am not yet certain but possibly due to the terms of some bequeath to his wife, nee Ann Needham, not being honoured on a timely basis.
Sir Francis Needham also had another daughter (Christian name?) who was married to Phillip Tilney of Barking Hall in Suffolk. He was the son of Phillip Tilney of Shelley House, Shelley, Suffolk and his first wife Margaret Brewse who, in turn, was the daughter of Thomas Brewse (d. 1482) and Elizabeth Debenham of Wenham Hall, Little Wenham. This Elizabeth Debenham was the daughter of Gilbert Debenham and sister and heir to her brother Gilbert Debenham of Little Wenham. Wenham Hall was sacked in 1470 and lost to the Debenhams in 1487 but returned to their possession in I think 1502 to the then nearest relative Robert Brewse and remained in the Brewse family for the next 200 years.
The Tilneys can I believe be traced back to Little Wenham. Charles Tilney (1561-1586) of Barking Hall Suffolk was the son I believe of Phillip Tilney and his wife who was the daughter of Sir Francis Needham as mentioned above. Charles Tilney was executed for plotting against Queen Elizabeth 1.
The above does not of course explain the recording back in 1530 of the reference to a daughter of Richard Wenham marrying a Brewse with whom she shared Wenham Hall in approx. 1470. There are many speculative theories not least the one mentioned in a previous blog in which it was stated that perhaps we who think we descended from Wenhams may in fact have descended from Debenhams. Who knows?
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Greetings from Spain & apologies for not responding more quickly to your interesting information...
Morehayle was the home of the Wenhams in Sussex from the earliest reference in the Visitations & your information about the litigation with the Needhams provides a one possible positive link between Sussex Wenhams & the owners of Wenham Hall - links which might well have been magnified/exaggerated if the Sussex family had a sense of grievance.....
I wish that I could visit the local Suffolk archives but it all makes the potential family history very interesting. I got into this when I visited East Sussex archives to look for a Wenham pauper. I didn't know where the poor law records were kept & was initially somewhat surprised when an archivist smiled & suggested looking at the Visitations.... So far I have not only identified a possible link with someone attainted for treason, but there is also the Wenham hung at Execution Dock Wapping for piracy....... Modern relatives are far more ordinary!
Thank you again
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Not sure if anyone is still looking for info but I happened to find this...
https://books.google.com/books?id=zkBPAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA90&lpg=PA90&dq=Sir+John+Brewse+of+Wenham,+england&source=bl&ots=1RtGyU1lTa&sig=MkVjXxlZcopngr8-9_k6ElBFBEc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjMtcXtpvjZAhWIilQKHQ4cBHsQ6AEIRTAF#v=onepage&q=Sir%20John%20Brewse%20of%20Wenham%2C%20england&f=false
it's got Brewse, Debenham and Wenham all rolled into one
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Just saying Hi and to ensure this appears in my 'post' list so I can find it later
I have Joan Wenham married to John Hepden, Joan dying in 1591, has will, just looking to find her parents. It's late so will return to this tomorrow
Dee
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My grandmother was Edith Wenham from her I have got to Richard Wenham c1410 Richard was married to Joan Calthorpe, with whom he had children, then it seems she married William de browse/ Broase, and had a child, Wenham hall I believe belonged to the Wenham's at this time , but then William de Brewse married the widow Joan then Wenham hall became he's, as that is what happened in those days ,all properties of the woman went to her husband .I cant go back any further for the Wenham's, so like someone else on here i wonder if there was a name change, a Gilbert Debenham, was born and lived Wenham hall, he was a terrible villian and put in prison , it was he's sister Elizabeth that paid to get a release. Richard Wenham and Joan Calthorpe had a daughter Elizabeth who could have taken the Brewse name I am only guessing of course