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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: cassofromdyers on Monday 28 September 09 07:45 BST (UK)
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Hi hoping someone can help. I have Joseph Howard arriving in Australia aboard 'Guildford' (On a birth certificate- Both parents)
Paylist- 'Men charged for first time additional pay 30/11/1813 - 24/12/1827 14 years service. (Copy from Mitchell Library Microfilm very poor)
Muster papers- Private 39th Company 5th 25th December 1824 to 24th March 1825 7 years service. He was also noted as being in Companies 10,4,9 & 8 from 25th December 1824 until discharged on 30th June 1832, 14 years service. Payment of 5 pounds on discharge to remain in Colony.
This information is conflicting. Does it sound right? Also was a wife and child allowed to accompany them.
Have not found where they came from. Joseph his wife Hannah (Dyer / Dier) and daughter Mary Ann arrived free.
Your site advised someone to see records at Kew. Don't know anyone in England. I live in Australia. Do researchers cost very much?
Wife Hannah's death certificate said married in Ireland.
Hope someone may be able to assist with this family.
Wendy
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Hi,
You will find some information on this man at http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~garter1/howardjoe.htm
Andcarred
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Well Thanks for alerting me to this information. All that information was from my earlier (8-10years ago) research. It is obviously one of the cousins. No one told me they were putting it on the internet, and had they checked with me first they would know I have found new details. e.g Hannah died in Orange in 1873 and I believe (not yet proven) that this is the wrong Joseph's death in 1874. So I have to go back to find his origins. I have drawn blanks on death in Australia.
It is correct he obtained 40 acres in Myrtle Creek after being discharged from the Army.
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Hi Wendy
There is no conflict. He served November 1813 to June 1832, unless this does not fit in with his age. The 7 years and 14 years service refer to Good Conduct Pay awarded after those periods had elapsed.
By Paylist and Muster I assume you are referring to the Muster Books and Pay Lists in Kew in series WO12. You need to go back to these as they should also tell you where he was each month. That is the best way to track his service. You can then look in the church records of the places he passed. Did you notice that the army were still using Julian quarters 70 years after we changed.
You can search for surviving papers (for men discharged before the end of 1854) on the NA Catalogue. His does not appear to have survived, so all you have left are the Muster Books and as you appear to have the information from these there is no point in taking on a researcher.
Regarding families, there does not appear to have been a lot of control then over men getting married. When they went overseas about 10-15% of wives went with them, with children and free passage. The rest were left to fend for themselves, although the men could send money back through the Pay Department. Later in the century they introduced quotas for how many men could marry. All senior NCOs (7 per battalion) had the right to marry, down to 40 out of c900 Privates. Potential wives had to provide a reference and be approved. But once accepted ‘on the strength’ all families went overseas with their husbands.
What was his age in 1813? Later musters give place of birth and age on enlistment. In these early ones you have to look to see if any of the sergeants were out recruiting and then look in those areas (if given) for his baptism. There is a lot of information in the musters that is not obvious and unless you search the whole ‘book’ you can easily miss something.
Ken
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Thank you for all that information. The details I have are meagre. I researched from our Mitchell Library in Sydney, and copied a quarterly pay-list from 25th September 1827 to 24th Decemer 1827, Ref. WO12 5262. It only had microfilm copies. Very poor condition. I found his name on page 225 under 'Number of each Class entitled to higher Pay from length of Service' 7 years Joseph Howard No. 37.
From Society of Australian Genealogists, 39th Dorset Regiment of Foot. Muster Papers Index to Personal
Sheet Number 39 - 314 & 315
HOWARD Joseph Pte
It starts with Company 5 25th Dec 1824 - 24th Mar 1825 7 years.
It continues on with each quarter but on the right hand side are 1st, 2nd 3rd Muster, Location/ ????
These are some of the details written in those sections:
Co. 5 & 10 25/3/'25 - 24/6/'25 Detachment MELLOW 13 Nov 1825
Co. 10 25/9/'25 - 24 Dec '25 DTS 'Duchess of York' 30 Sep - 12 Oct 1825
Co. 10 25/12/'25 - 24/3/'26 Sheerness
Co. 10 25/3/'26 - 24/6/'26 Under 3rd Muster 'On Duty'
Co 10 Next Quarter Then 10 & 5 Next Quarter
Co 5 & 4 25 /12/'26 - 24 /3/'27 New South Wales 07 Mar 1827
Followed by Co. 5, 4 9, & 8 until
1/4/'32 - 30/6/'32 Discharged 30th June 1832 On payment of 5.0.0
Please remember these are copies of very poor microfilm copies. Unsure I have written as it seems to me.
That is all I have.
Wendy
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Thank you for all that information. The details I have are meagre. I researched from our Mitchell Library in Sydney, and copied a quarterly pay-list from 25th September 1827 to 24th Decemer 1827, Ref. WO12 5262. It only had microfilm copies. Very poor condition. I found his name on page 225 under 'Number of each Class entitled to higher Pay from length of Service' 7 years Joseph Howard No. 37.
From Society of Australian Genealogists, 39th Dorset Regiment of Foot. Muster Papers Index to Personal
Sheet Number 39 - 314 & 315
HOWARD Joseph Pte
It starts with Company 5 25th Dec 1824 - 24th Mar 1825 7 years.
It continues on with each quarter but on the right hand side are 1st, 2nd 3rd Muster, Location/ ????
These are some of the details written in those sections:
Co. 5 & 10 25/3/'25 - 24/6/'25 Detachment MELLOW 13 Nov 1825
Co. 10 25/9/'25 - 24 Dec '25 DTS 'Duchess of York' 30 Sep - 12 Oct 1825
Co. 10 25/12/'25 - 24/3/'26 Sheerness
Co. 10 25/3/'26 - 24/6/'26 Under 3rd Muster 'On Duty'
Co 10 Next Quarter Then 10 & 5 Next Quarter
Co 5 & 4 25 /12/'26 - 24 /3/'27 New South Wales 07 Mar 1827
Followed by Co. 5, 4 9, & 8 until
1/4/'32 - 30/6/'32 Discharged 30th June 1832 On payment of 5.0.0
Please remember these are copies of very poor microfilm copies. Unsure I have written as it seems to me.
That is all I have.
Wendy
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Hi Wendy
There was a muster each month - hence the 1st, 2nd and 3rd musters. A blank means they were at the muster. 'On Duty' means he was on duty some place else. You also get 'sick', 'hospital', 'cells' etc. After each quarter the Muster Books were sent to London, and it is interesting to see how long they took to get there from the far-flung reaches of the Empire. Today they would be considered part of the audit trail. They ensured the regiment actually had the men it claimed to have. The first regimental numbers were introduced in the 1820s to further decrease the chances of fraud. They may have been officers and gentlemen, but the crown didn't trust them when it came to their money.
The main force was at Buttevant, Co Cork, from October 1824 to July 1825, then Cork until Sept 1825, so he must have been in a detachment at Mallow, which is also in Co Cork. They spent ten months in Chatham (with him in Sheerness for part of the time), before sailing for NSW in July 1826, with him on the 'Duchess of York'. Sometimes they just say 'At sea'. The 39th Regiment left NSW for India in July 1832, hence the reason he purchased his discharge then.
Are you able to look at earlier musters to see when he enlisted?
Ken
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Thanks Ken
I will not be going to Sydney for a while, but will check out as much as I can. When I first went did not understand system and just photocopied pages . As mentioned before very poor quality.
I had a seperate sheet, page 204 for 'Men charged for the First Time, for Additional Pay.
These were the names and dates on this sheet:
P & C Allen James 39th 17th Dec 1813 - 24th Dec 1827 14 yrs
P Clunes (unsure) Michael 39th 2nd Dec 1820 - 24th Dec 1827 7 yrs
P Cook John 39th 29th Nov 1813 - 24th Dec 1827 14 yrs
P Howard Joseph 39th 30th Nov 1813 - 24th Dec 1827 14 yrs
P James (unsure) 39th Philip 10th Dec 1813 - 24th Dec 1827 14 yrs
P Murphy Thomas 96th 13th July 1813- 16th Nov 1818, 39th 9th Feb 1819- 24th Dec 1827 14 yrs
C Oatland (unsure) Charles 39th 3rd Dec 1813 - 24th Dec 1827 14 yrs
C Petty Patrick 39th 17th Dec 1813 - 24th Dec 1827 14 yrs
P Phillips John 39th 30th Nov 1813 - 24th Dec 1827 14 yrs
P Pollard Samuel 39th 29th Nov 1809 - 24th Dec 1827 14 yrs dob 27th Nov 1795 (enlisted U/18)
P Stephens Benjamin 39th 7th Dec 1813 - 24th Dec 1824 14 yrs
P Stephens James 39th 30th Nov 1813 - 24th Dec 1827 14 yrs
P Stott (unsure) John 6th Dec 1813 - 24th Dec 1827 14 yrs
P Walker John 39th 30th Nov 1813 - 24th Dec 1827 14 yrs
P Williams George 39th (looks like) 10th Aug 18? dob 9th Aug 1818 (enlisted u/18) Completed 15 years ? 9th Aug 1827
Dated Canterbury this 21st day of Feb 1828
They all appear to have enlisted in November - December 1813. There must have been a drive for new soldiers.
I have not been able to establish his age. Children born in NSW were from 1830.
Don't know if this helps but thought maybe someone else might find a name.
Wendy
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To all those who have tried to help me with Joseph Howard, Soldier of the 39th Regiment of Foot.
I was looking over all your replies. Age was mentioned. I just thought, that on the 'men charged for the first time, for additional pay, there was only Samuel Pollard listed as being Under 18 on enlistmeny, born 27th Nov 1795, 14 years service. Samuel enlisted on 27th Nov 1809. This would mean, according to my calculations, that Joseph Howard, when he enlisted on 30th November 1813 he had to be over 18 years of age. I believe he would have been born at least before 1795.
Do you think I am on the right track or am I whistling in the wind.
I expect that if he was born before 1795, then when his children (registered in NSW) were born he would only have been between 35 and 45 years of age. This sound very plausible. (At least to me).
I am now going to check if there are any records of birth for those on the list that enlisted around 1813.
Wendy
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Hi Wendy
Your post has woken me up to the fact I didn’t reply to your last one. I got sidetracked looking at the medal roll for the 39th Regiment. Yes you are quite right – he was over 18 when he enlisted.
The regiment was in Spain in November 1813. This shows that their Depot was in Canterbury at the time, which I didn't have, so thanks for that.
I have looked at the medal roll for the Peninsular Wars for the 39th. The medal was not authorised until 1847 and you had you be alive then, and apply, to receive one. He is not listed, so either he was dead, or he did not hear about it. There is a James Howard listed, so he might have been related.
Ken
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oh Ken, please forgive my ignorance. I do not know anything about the military or how they worked. If the Regiment was in Spain in 1813, then how was the recruitment conducted? I do know from documents here in Australia, that Joseph Howard, private, left the 39th Regiment of Foot on the 30th June 1832 after paying 5 pound for discharge to remain in the Colony. I also know (fact) that in the 1841 Census in Australia he was a Myrtle Creek. He had a wife & daughter (7-14), who arrived free, 2 males & 1 female born in the colony 7-14 yrs. The children born in NSW were from 1827 -1835.
These are the details:CENSUS: 1841 Census. HOWARD Joseph, return 47 Myrtle Creek, County Camden, District Picton. Item ID (X949) p 73, Reel 2222.
Details on return for Joseph HOWARD of Myrtle Creek. Aged 7 - 14 years 2 males 1 female, Aged 14 - 21 years l female, Aged 21 - 45 years 2 males, 2 females. Married 1 male, 1 female. Single 3 males, 3 females. Free or born in colony 2 males, 1 female. Arrived Free 1 male, 2 females. In Private Assignment 1 male, 1 female. Religion Church of England 2, Roman Catholic 6. Occupations Landed Proprietors, Merchants, Bankers & Professional Persons 1, Shephers and Other in care of sheep 1, Domestic Service 1, All other persons not included in forgoing classes 5. Males 4, Females 4, Total 8. House 1 wood, Furnished 1, Inhabited 1.
So according to the 1841 Census, Joseph arrived in Australia with a wife Hannah nee Dier/Dyer daughter of a Tailor, and a daughter born before arriving in NSW in 1827. she was aged 7 -14 years in 1841.
Wendy
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Hi Wendy
When regiments were serving abroad they would leave a Depot back in the UK for recruitment and training. When they needed men in the battalions – the 39th Foot normally only had one battalion, but up to 1815 they had two – they asked the Depot to send them reinforcements.
Actually I have found some interesting pieces of information about Joseph Howard. He joined the 2nd Battalion at Winchester on 17 October 1815. It says he enlisted on 26th September 1815 at Gloster (Gloucester). So there is a discrepancy with what you have on the 'Men charged for the First Time, for Additional Pay’ page from 1827. He received a bounty of £2 15s on enlistment.
There was also a Private Moses Howard in the same battalion who was invalided to Chatham and discharged 30 November 1815. I wonder if they were related. Moses was a ‘7 year’ man, ie served between 7 and 14 years.
If you pm me an email address I will send what I have.
btw....P = Private, C = Corporal. Sergeants did not get service/good conduct pay. It was included in the ‘per diem’ rate. Basic pay for a Private was 1s a day, with 1d extra after 7 and 14 years.
Ken
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Hi Wendy,
I've just spotted your post. I can provide you with a little information on Joseph Howard. I've only today finished transcribing a diary kept by John Forbes, the Captain of the Guards on the convict ship, Guildford, during its 1827 voyage to NSW. He had command of the elite, grenadier corps of the 39th Regiment which was being transferred to NSW and was assigned to guard the convicts on the Guildford. He lists all the soldiers under his command. Among them was Private Jos Howard who was accompanied by Mrs Howard and one child. Most of the soldier's first names were abbreviated in this way. No further details are given. They sailed from the Nore at the mouth of the Thames on March 25,1827.
The only other major reference to the Howard family is this
Tuesday 10 April: "Mrs Howard brought to bed of a son last night."
and then rather obnoxiously....
Monday April 16: "Mrs Howards child died last night & was consigned to the fishes".
I believe this sort of flippant callousness was considered "cool" within his circle but he later shows a decent, caring side when one of his men falls dangerously ill. The 200 page diary gives a fair indication of his character and I'm sure that the flippancy was a facade: he would have been genuinely upset by the death. The child who died was definitely not the one listed as accompanying them, so one child arrived safely in NSW with them.
At the end of the diary he lists all of the soldiers who were punished for sloppiness, insubordination etc. The usual punishment was to stop their grog. Most of the soldiers get a mention but not Jos Howard. Clearly his behaviour was exceptional.
There are two other direct mentions of Joseph. Of the morning parade on July 11: "Mostly very clean - Webb, Howard & Lewis particularly so - Dean & Conway dirty - they ought both be got rid of useless vagabonds."
Finally on July 23, one day's sail from Sydney: "Paraded with clean packs in hand - Howard has lost one of his." No disciplinary measure was taken against him, I assume because Forbes would give such a good soldier the benefit of the doubt. The soldier's equipment didn't just disappear. It was either stolen or sold by the soldier to one of the convicts or crew members. Forbes would have assumed the pack was
stolen.
That's all, I'm afraid. They entered Sydney Heads early on July 25 and disembarked at 2PM, marching to the barracks with drums & bugles and the full regalia, letting Sydney know that the grenadiers had arrived.
I have to make a few corrections and add some footnotes to the diary then I'll pass it on to the National Library in Canberra. They have the original manuscript and hold copyright on its contents. I was allowed to photograph it on the basis that I'd do them the transcription, and was required, as are all people who examine their rare manuscripts, to sign an agreement to honour their copyright. I hope that they will soon make the diary available for download.
Doug.
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Hi Doug
Welcome to the forum, and what an amazing first post. Finding a Captain's diary that mentions the Other Ranks by name must be very rare for the period.
It will be Grenadier Coy (ie Company) rather than corps. Each line regiment had a Grenadier company of the biggest fittest men. And I don’t believe the Captain was being either 'cool’ or callous about the death of the infant. He is just being ‘matter of fact’ in an age when 25% of infants died before reaching their first birthday.
Ken
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Doug, You found a goldmine. It must have been a pleasure to transcribe the diary. I am most greatful for that information. I know from the 1828 census that Joseph, his wife Hannah and a daughter, Mary Anne came free. This proves Mary Anne accompanied her parents aboard the Guildford. I hope this transcription will be available in the future. With the assistance of people from this site I now have more information on this elusive soldier and his family.
Again, thanks
Wendy
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I am wondering if anyone out there can help me in tracing my soldier.
Sergeant Charles James Blewett /Blewitt was in the 39th regiment of foot.He was withthe 2nd bat transferring to the 1st bat in Nov 1813 joining the service cop.in France was left in France sick march when the bat transferred to America he returned to England and the 2nd bat returned to France rejoining the 1st bat July 1815 arrived in Ireland DEC 1815 where he was promoted to Sergeant 25/4/1825 and was detached to 'Kanturk' 10/5/1825 He arrived in Hobart 29/4/1826 aboard the "Woodman" with 150 male convicts I presume his wife and at least 1 female child came with him. His wife Winifred ( O'Brien ) will says she was married in Cork which would have been in 1821 discharged at Port Macquarie NSW 8/3/1832 with a gratuity pay of 1 1/2 years pay of 5pound 3s 9p for 18years service to settel in Australia.
I would love any help or corrections especially where he was born.
Thank you Marj
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I have recently discovered my g g g g grandfather, Thomas Poole, was a Lt-Col in the 39th regiment from 1837 to 1838/9 when he died. He transferred from the 22nd Cheshires in 1828 with the rank of major.
Can anyone tell me where he might have served between then and 1839?
He died in late 1838 or 1839 in India. A codicil to his will written in 1838 virtually cuts of his second wife, Mary, describing her as a worthless wretch!
Fortunately I am descended from his first wife Sarah Spence.
I was interested to hear there are records of births, marriages and deaths abroad in Kew as so far I haven't found a death certificate.
Maureen
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Hi Maureen
The 39th Regiment were in New South Wales on prison guard duty until July 1832 when they sailed for India. In 1834 they took part in the Coorg campaign.
Ken
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Thank you Ken for such a swift reply.
Would any records show if a wife accompanied a major, firstly to New South Wales and then on to India?
Maureen
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Hi Maureen
No, army records do not include details of families until much later, and even then they are only the married roll for the rank & file. However, most officer's wives would travel with their husbands. The problem is proving it. They used RN ships so there are no passenger lists. You could check the regimental BMDs on sites such as Findmypast in case any children are listed. It should have his regiment in the index.
Ken
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Hi Maureen,
I can add a little on Major Poole's later activities. I researched the Coorg campaign earlier in the year to find out what happened to Captain Forbes of the 39th who wrote the diary of the Voyage of the Guildford, referred to in my previous post.
By the time Poole received his appointment to the 39th on Feb 21, 1828, most of the 39th's complement were already in NSW. Their headquarters had been transferred the previous year. Presumably Major Poole was a later arrival. Unless the Sydney Gazette reported his arrival, I can't add to what Ken said. Ironically, detailed records exist for convict arrivals but not for the military.
A google search will give you a fair bit of information on the 39th's activities in NSW but I haven't noticed anything on Major Poole.
On the transfer of the regiment to India: six companies of the regiment embarked at Sydney on the 21st of July 1832, in three divisions, and disembarked at Madras on the 22nd of September and the 10th and 14th of October. The remaining four companies embarked at Sydney on the 3rd of December, and arrived at Madras on the 21st of February of the following year. On arrival they marched the 13 miles from Madras to Poonamalee where they were stationed.They next marched to Bangalore in February 1833. In the following month cholera broke out amongst the troops and they suffered a heavy death toll. In the course of five weeks the regiment lost their adjutant, Captain Thomas Meyrick, four serjeants, forty-two rank and file, two women, and eleven children.
The Coorg campaign is well documented and I recommend these sites (if you haven't already found them)
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2217218
http://malabardays.blogspot.com/2010/03/outbreak-of-war-with-coorg-1834.html
As you'll see, Colonel Lindesay praised his infantry commander, Major Poole, very highly. (Forbes, who appears to have acted as Lindesay's personal assistant, also gets a very favourable mention). This campaign would have been quite profitable to Major Poole.
Captain Forbes became the secretary of the Coorg Prize Committee and their nominated agent. Following normal procedure, this was set up to organise the distribution of twenty-nine thousand pounds in prize money derived from the sale of plunder. Over nine thousand would go to Colonel Lindesay with the remainder distributed amongst the lesser ranks. Even the dead received their share although it might be slow in coming. The widow and son of Private Bennett of the 39th had to wait twenty years to receive his four pounds nine shillings share.
Forbes didn't live to enjoy his share either. He left a final diary, a private log kept between 10th April and 12th June, 1836, of his voyage on SS Protector en route from Madras to Gravesend. He was in command of a group of soldiers who, like himself, were being invalided back to Britain. Reportedly the diary tells us that he boarded the ship for home “more dead than alive”. On June 16 he died and was buried at sea. At the time of his death the prize money still hadn't been distributed: he bequeathed the monies he expected to receive to his relations. I hope Major Poole derived more benefit from his share.
I can't help much with the remaining years. After the Coorg victory they were highly praised. They remained camped at Mercara, the capital of the Coorg region until mid-1834 then marched back to Bangalore. In late 1838 and early 1839 they marched the 160 miles to Bellara to replace the 41st Regiment. It was there that Major Poole died. The United Services Magazine of 1839 lists his death at Bellara, Madras on April, 23, 1839. Have you found how he died?
The story behind his reference to Mary as a "worthless wretch" would be very interesting. I googled Thomas Poole out of interest and saw that Mary was the youngest child of the (then) wealthy Freeman-Deane family of Castle Cor in County Cork. After such a noble upbringing she might have let her self go a bit! It would be interesting to hear her side of the story.
Just let me know if you want further information on my sources etc. Hope this is of some use.
Cheers, Doug.
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Wow - what a lot to absorb. Thank you very much.
I have spent a lot of today looking into the Coorg campaign but had not got all the wonderful detail you have come up with.
Another descendent has also been looking at this relative and she gave me the newspaper reference today too!
She found out that his death was due to cholera - on 23 rd April and the date for sailing from Sydney to Madras on the Hercules 9th Dec 1832
where did you get the wife Mary ? Do you think she went native/had an affair or took to drink?
We have not found where Thomas was born yet.
A brother John Poole, about 10 yrs younger had a similar good career in 22nd regiment of Foot. Ending his career as Colonel.
Maureen
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Hi Maureen,
Sounds like you're having a lot of fun with it. A couple of corrections: I referred to "Major Poole" when referring to his death but by then of course he'd been promoted to Lt Col. There's bound to be some reference to the promotion to tell you when it happened. Also Mary's family was Deane-Freeman not the other way around as I had it. Google them and you'll find a history of the family. My guess on Mary's wretched worthlessness would be an affair and a return to Britain in disgrace. India was very hard on wives with heat & dust & boredom & lots of dashing young officers looking to practise their "gallantry" on them. And Mary was probably younger and the Colonel was away a lot etc etc. Of course she might have simply been an independant spirit and not content to be treated like one of the rank & file of the 39th. Her family were renouned for their kindness and generosity. It's hard to believe that they'd have produced a "worthless wretch". It would be interesting to find out what really happened.
On Thomas's birth, Ireland is a possibility, specifically County Cork. That's where Mary came from. However, I vaguely remember a reference to a Thomas Poole in the Cork Militia in the early 1800s, maybe something he joined in his early years. It was a common enough name so it's only a vague possibility. Good luck with it.
Doug
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Hi,
The London Gazette is good for military promotions so I have the dates for Thomas at each stage. His first appearance is as Ensign in 22nd (not purchased) 1805, which seemed to suggest a Cheshire birth; transfer to the 39th in 1828 at the rank of major. Then off to the penal colony in Sydney before India.
I am waiting for the archivist at Chester to look into their records for more information on his origins.
Maureen
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Hi Maureen
You cannot assume he was born in Cheshire because of the nominal name of the 22nd Foot. He could have come from anywhere. Less than 10% of rank and file enlisting in the 'Cheshires' around that time, were born in Cheshire.
As he was an officer the museum should have something. Although I doubt they will have his place of birth. As he did not purchase his commission there is a chance he had previous military experience so you should follow up Doug's Militia suggestion. He is less likely to have come from the ranks of the 22nd Foot - although it would help if you gave an indication of his age in say 1805.
A Thomas Poole enlisted in the 22nd Regiment in 1799, but he was still rank and file when he was discharged in 1820.
Ken
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Ah - Thomas Poole's age is a mystery as we have no birth, death, marriage certificates.
My best chance is the museum at the moment. But Ireland does sound a good bet. His friends in 1838 when writing his will were John O'Neill and sister Georgiana O'Neill who were given guardianship of a young daughter.
But the search is proving so interesting - I thought coming up with another g g g g grandfather who was a Hull whaling captain of 1820 was exciting enough but this is even better.
M
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More from my other online friend re Thomas Poole
Fantastic detail in the information from your correspondent! This is getting more and more interesting and each email from you stimulates me to do some more digging.
The reference to Mary Deane-Freeman says she married Major Thomas Poole of the 39th, so this must have pre-dated his promotion to Lt-Col.
ie between 14th Feb 1828 and 10 Jan 1837
Mary Poole relict of Lt-Col. Thomas Poole died in Ireland (probably Cork) 25th March 1859. So she went back home and did not remarry.
Mary was the second wife of Thomas Poole
On a link to families in India website from the second ref below, I found that Thomas left Deptford on the Sophia for NSW on 1st July 1828 with 13 men. So, as Doug says, he was following the rest of the regiment, who had already left.
I also found a Lt O’Neill and Miss O’Neill arriving in Madras from London on Seostris via Portsmouth, Madeira and The Cape. Date is 19th August 1835, but it’s not clear if this was departure or arrival. Also Georgiana O’Neill died 1910 in Bombay (possibly the right person but she would have been an elderly spinster).
The O'Neill's come into the story when they are appointed guardians of a young daughter Georgiana in 1838 after Mary Poole is described as a worthless wretch in a codicil to the will
I like the suggestion the Thomas Poole was from Ireland. Mary’s family were Anglo-Irish and there were certainly wealthy Pooles living in Cork as well. Apparently army officers from Ireland would have been wealthy protestant landowners. If this is correct then it looks possible that he met and married Sarah Spence when he was posted to Hull and you need to look for their marriage there.
Sarah Spence is the first wife and my direct ancestor. We can only place her in Mauritius 1816b /17 while the 22nd Foot were there as 2 daughters were born there and in Hull in 1822 for the birth of the third daughter. No birth, death or marriage record has been uncovered yet - perhaps we ar elookin gin the wrong places.
The trouble with Irish ancestry is that it’s difficult to research.
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Hi
I hope someone can help me with the later postings of the Regiment. My 3x Great Grandfather was Cpl Samuel Toy. He married Anne Beswick on 7 July 1841 in Kamptee, Madras. They had a daughter Esther, born 1844 in Dinnapore. She then married a John Hill, also believed to be a soldier but I don't know which Regiment and they had a son, also John born in India somewhere and then went on to have more children in Chatham, Aldershot and Dublin. I assume that this is where he was posted.
Any help on the 39th; Samuel Toy, any background on him before India and John Hill, especially info on what possible regiment he may have been with would be gratefully received. I have drawn a blank on usual sources.
Cheers
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Fellow Listers
It looks as if there haven't been any posts to this thread for a while, but just in case anyone is still watching it, I would value any information about Lt Charles COX, who was detached from the 39th during its time in Sydney to serve on Norfolk Island. It looks as if he was Court Martialled in 1827 for apparent insubordination and ungentlemanly conduct by Captain Thomas E Wright, although this doesn't seem to have resulted in any disciplinary action.
He sailed with the Regiment to Madras in July 1832, but died shortly afterwards of cholera.
If anyone can help me to reconstruct his career - the whole of it in the 39th - I would really appreciate the help.
Kind regards
Philip Candy
Toowoomba, Queensland
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I have just come across this thread which seems to have some knowledgeable researchers so I'm hoping someone can help me. I am looking for career, or any, information for John Cox of the 39th Regiment of Foot.
He arrived in Australia in 1827 on board the Champion. The only information that I have is that he belonged to the 39th Regiment of Foot. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Tamworth
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Private George McGrath (service period ca. 1809-1832)
Hi everyone
I am hoping someone might have come across Private George McGrath's name in a muster book/pay list for the 39th Regiment from approximately May 1809 to 30 June 1832 when he was discharged after 22 years and 11 months service in the Colony of NSW.
I am hoping to find a service number for him so I can see if a researcher can research through the muster books/pay lists at Kew to try and track his earlier enlistment history until he went to the Colony of NSW via Tasmania.
George was born about 1790 or 1794, place unknown. He came Australia as a convict guard being part of a detachment of the 39th Regiment of Foot that sailed on the ship "William Miles" that arrived in Hobart, Tasmania from Downs, England in July 1828. The detachment sailed from Hobart to Sydney, N.S.W. aboard the ship "Mermaid" in August 1828. With George was his wife, Rose DILLY (?), and daughters including Elizabeth (born in Ireland ca. 1818-1820) and Mary.
I am particularly interested in finding his location from 27 Dec 1815 to 30 Oct 1818 when the 39th Regiment of the Foot was part of the British Army of Occupation of France at Pas-de-Calais between towns of ARRAS (1000 men) and ST POL (1500 men) moving annually to camps of ST OMER and VALENGENNES. It appears likely that George met his future French wife Mary Rose Dilly in this area in France at the time.
I am also interested in finding out his whereabouts when the 1st battalion of the 39th was ordered to North America following hostilities between Great Britain and the United States 1812-1814, embarking for Canada on 8th June 1814, and arrived in Quebec on 5th August 1814, and marched from there to Chambly. After being ordered to participate in an attack upon the state of New York, and 2 officers and 60 men of the 39th detached on board British ships on Lake Champlain on 11 September, the troops retired to lower Canada, embarking at Quebec on 27 May 1815, to return to Europe where Napoleon Bonaparte had returned.
Any replies would be most gratefully received.
Helen
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Hi Helen
I have a muster for the 2nd Battalion for 1814-15. He is not listed so he must be with the 1st Bn. The two battalions merged to form a single regiment in 1815.
Downs is the area of sea off Deal, Kent. It was protected from the north and west by the coast and from the east by the Goodwin Sands. There are records suggesting up to 800 ships could lay at anchor there.
Regimental numbers were only issued in the late 1820s. Knowing his number may however be useful, as they were issued in order of longest serving. So may help to find his enlistment.
Ken
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Hi Ken
Thanks very much for you prompt response, and information about him not being listed for the 2nd battalion for 1814-15, and also about regimental numbers not being issued until the late 1820s.
Kind regards
Helen
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Hello,
This is all very intriguing, I have a brickwall in my research concerning the father of Kate Dutton who was born in 1857 in Geelong, Australia her father was listed as Thomas Dutton Soldier 39th Regn. Infn (or at least that is what I think it reads) he was "about 35 years" and came from London. Would 39th Regiment of Foot be the same as 39th Regn. Infn?
He seems to have disappeared straight after/or jsut before Kates birth as I haven't been able to track him down or find out what happened to him.
How would I go about finding out in he was in this regiment?
Thanks
Sandra
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Would 39th Regiment of Foot be the same as 39th Regn. Infn?
Hi Sandra
I think you are correct in this. However the 39th Regiment left NSW for India in 1832. The 39th had no man of that name in 1861. Could he have been discharged and made his own way to NSW?
Unfortunately the 39th were in Ireland at the time of the 1851 census. You could research the muster books but even if you find that a Thomas Dutton had served in the 39th you then have to tie him in to the man in Australia in 1857.
Posting the image that led you to the 39th may help.
Ken
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Hi Ken,
I am not sure what the rules are for posting a certificate so I have posted an excerpt - the informant on the birth certificate was a friend so I'm not sure how reliable the information is, his daughter Kate Dutton was born on the 21 December 1857 in Geelong, her mother was Mary Dillon who was 28 who had been born in London, the couple had married in London in 1856. this is the only reference I have been able to find to the father. so he may have been retired from the 39th Regiment, I simply don't know.
I'd be interested in your thoughts.
Sandra
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Hi Sandra
The 39th is correct. The regiment was in the Crimea a few years before, but he is not on the medal roll. And I cannot see the marriage on FreeBMD.
Hard to say what the next step should be.
Ken
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I am returning to this thread with further news of the Poole family and their military history.
My ancestor Thomas Poole was my first entry point who became a Lt Col in 39th after moving from the 22nd.
His brother John Henry lived longer and also rose to the rank of Lt Col. remaining in 22 nd Cheshires all his career. retiring on full pay and attending Wellington's funeral.
The records seem to show that these 2 brothers had a third brother, George, also a soldier who died before 1851 leaving 2 children which John Henry remembered in his will.
From John Henry's wedding certificate (in 1845) I found that their father, John Poole, was quartermaster for the 22 nd . I understand that this was usually commissioned from the ranks. Would that be enough to explain the entry of both John Henry and Thomas as ensigns without their seeming to purchase the rank? Thomas joined up in 1805, John Henry in 1814. George I cannot trace.
I would be grateful for some guidance as to where I can research John Poole, quartermaster, further. I don't think the 22nd was at Waterloo but they must have been somewhere interesting!
Maureen
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Hi Maureen
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/13972/pages/49
Lots of commissions and promotions were made 'without purchase' during the wars with France. They would have been by recommendation, so having a father serving as an officer would have helped.
The 22nd Regiment were in India and Mauritius during the Napoleonic Wars. They briefly had a 2nd Battalion raised in early 1814, and disbanded later in the year, after Napoleon was sent to Elba.
Ken
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Dear Ken,
Thank you for your help and quick response.
I suspect a promotion to Quartermaster from Quartermaster Serjeant was a big thing and it was probably better to move regiment ie away from the rankers who knew you too well.
The way this family rose through the ranks must indicate some character - and the luck of wartime service. My husband is reading through Sharpe at present ( a post- op joy) and was disappointed to find him "almost" landing on Mauritius at the time the 22nd were there!
So I must go on to investigate the 67th foot & find out how these transfers happened - job application or head hunting?
Thomas applied for a transfer to 39 th to get to India. Perhaps the John Senior was in India, told great stories / made a small fortune himself, and Thomas wanted some of the same
Maureen
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Hi Helen,
I am a descendent of Mary Rose Dilly and I am eager to receive any scrap of information about her and George McGrath. Your post, and a Mary's death notice in the Bathurst Free Press in 1850, threw some light on some nebulous family folklore about a female French descendent who refused to emigrate to the United States because of fear of `Red Indians' and instead coming to New South Wales.
Thanks
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Hello Helen and Terry
George R and Marie Rose McGRATH are my 5x great-grandparents - I was wondering if you had any further information on where in France Marie Rose was from, where she and George met, and where in Ireland George was born?
Thank you,
Zep
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Hello Ken
Hope you can nelp;
My GGgrandfather DANIEL MARTIN joined the 39th foot in Tralee on 2nd June 1827 served in N.S.W 4yrs. I think as soon as he joined up. Then went to India for 16 yrs he joined the 80 th 1 st Mar. 1846. Would like to know what ship he came to Australia and what ship he went to India.
Am going to India in Dec. Is there a Museum where they have some info. on campaign against the Rajah of Coorg 1834 and campaign against Gawlior present in the action of Maharajpore 29th Dec.1843. He served in India for 16 yrs.
Kind regards Max
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Hi Max
The musters and paylists will be the most important source as soldiers pay was reduced while they were at sea, as food was provided. Whereas when at home their pay included an amount for buying their own food. It will also include the date he landed. If his record says he served in NSW/Australia for 4 years this includes time at sea. So he is likely to have sailed from Home in 1828. Unfortunately the musters are not on line so you will need a researcher, if the time of your post indicates a location problem.
Most small parties of reinforcements – the main body of the 39th left England in 1825 – would have acted as guards on convict ships. But musters often give the name of the ship for each individual soldier. Failing that their museum may have a copy of their historical records. This should tell you the names of the ships sailing on a particular date. Or you could try online newspaper archives. You need to repeat the process for 1832 when they sailed for India.
I would not recommend visiting Coorg and Gwalior unescorted, due to the risks of crime and dangerous snakes wherever there is long grass. Plus I doubt that the sites will be even signposted. If you google battlefield tours for both Coorg and Gawlior you should get details of local experts. And you should also consider joining fibis.org. They have a forum for asking questions. You should find members who have visited these places.
The 39th Foot became part of the Dorsets, and their museum may have information about guided tours. They probably will not match your timescales, but they may have local contacts in India you can use - http://www.keepmilitarymuseum.org/
For general background you should go on the London Gazette archive and search for the despatches that the General in command would have sent home. These will tell you routes used in the campaigns, plus the names of other regiments brigaded with the 39th Regiment, and are alternative sources. They often give local landmarks, as most campaigns were often a series of skirmishes over many days, rather than a set piece battle on a single day.
Ken
Added... the Sophia convict ship left Dublin on 7 June 1828 with guards from the 39th Regiment on board. It arrived in NSW on 25 January 1829. There may have been others.
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Hi Ken,
Would really appreciate your help with tracing my ancestors movements prior to 1825.
According to his attestation, Thomas Smith was born in 1793 in the city of Worcester and was working as a Taylor when he was recruited to the 39th Dorcetshire Regiment in 1807.
He was likely recruited to the second battalion, as i understand the first battalion was in Malta around this time..
I have a record of his promotion to Corporal on the 25th Aug 1814 and on the 25 July 1815 promotion to sergeant. I am able to trace his time in Ireland from 1825 until his departure from Australia in 1832, through the limited pay muster records we have in the National Library of Australia. He seems to have had an interesting life, travelling the world and eventually reuniting with his children who stayed in Sydney while he was serving in India as Hospital sergeant. He left India in Nov 1834 and sent to England where he was discharged in July 1835.
His two eldest daughters Emma and Elizabeth were born to his wife Ann around 1824 and 1825 while he was stationed somewhere in Ireland. I would love to find a record of Ann and his children and of their passage to Australia. He came aboard the "Mariner" on convict guard duties on the 23rd May 1827 and i presume his family was aboard as well.
I will have to make the trip to Kew one day, but in the meantime i hope you can offer some insight.
Kind Regards,
Nick
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Hi Nick
The 39th Regiment had a second battalion from 1803 to 1815. It served in England, Ireland and the Channel Islands, before going to Portugal in 1809. The 1st Bn served in Malta and Sicily before going to Portugal.
His record includes the information that he was at the first siege of Badajoz. So he must have been in the 2nd Bn then, as the 1st Bn did not arrive in Portugal until later in the year. I happen to have a muster for the 2nd Bn for 1812-1813, but unfortunately a page containing details of 66 men, including all the Ss, is missing. This must have happened when it was bound about 150 years ago.
As he enlisted before 1818 he received ‘half period’ a 50% bonus for serving in the East (or West Indies).
The surgeons log for his trip to NSW is online. It contains this: Folios 27-28: Sergeant Smith, aged 38, soldier, 39th Regiment; disease or hurt, acute rheumatism. Put on sick list, 27 February 1827 at sea. Discharged 29 February 1827 well.
The age is a bit out, but you can look at the muster to see if there was another Sergeant Smith at this time. The 39th Foot moved from Limerick to Buttevant to Cork in 1824-25. But these places are where the CO was. Regiments were usually spread over a wide area in company strength detachments. Again the musters will tell you where he was.
Ken
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Hi
I am interested in a muster list for 1819- 1835 of the 39 th regiment especially as it might be Ireland
Where can I get a copy please
Best wishes Phil
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Hi Phil,
If it is Thomas Whittingham, there is a service record on Fold3 (pay site) and Find my Past.
Heywood
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Hi thanks for your reply
On find my past
Do you have to subscribe to get that record ???
Best wishes Phil
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Yes.