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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Berkshire => Topic started by: ribbo39 on Saturday 03 October 09 10:06 BST (UK)
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Hi all Belchers,
Help - can someone please give me assistance or advice with my Belcher ancestry.
1/. I have some concerns regarding which William Belcher to follow for marriages.
Originally I had Will Belcher marrying Mary Woodley on 10-11-1711 Hanney.
Then I found William Belcher (Wantage) marrying Mary George of EH on 20-2-1714
Hanney - which I thought was the one to follow. I now feel that perhaps the first
line was the correct one - what do others say?.
2/. Using the info taken from fiche records from the OFHS. I have in my tree;
William Belcher* (Bapt. 19-9-1686) son of Jonathon East Hanney
William Belcher (Bapt.4-1-1686/7) son of Jonathon EH
There is also a William Belcher bapt 8-7-1690 son of Jonathon EH
from the burials (* I assume this is the one) Will Belcher son of Jonathon was buried
2-11-1686 EH
Originally I followed William Belcher's line from the 1686/7 one, but now I'm not so
sure this correct. They both married either Mary Woodley or Mary George (as above)
3/. Jonathon Belcher married Ann Dew - North Hinksey 3-8-1676
Where did Jonathon come from? There is no Jonathon listed in the Hanney registers
(apart from his son in 1684) and I can't seem to find him anywhere else.
If there are other Belcher historians viewing this then I would appreciate their views
however small.
Alan
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1/. I have some concerns regarding which William Belcher to follow for marriages.
Originally I had Will Belcher marrying Mary Woodley on 10-11-1711 Hanney.
Then I found William Belcher (Wantage) marrying Mary George of EH on 20-2-1714
Hanney - which I thought was the one to follow. I now feel that perhaps the first
line was the correct one - what do others say?.
I am no Belcher historian, but I would have thought that, in order to answer your question, it would be necessary to know which child of William and Mary Belcher you are descended from.
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My mother was a Belcher and to show how it all fits together I'll list the ancestry;
Jonathon Belcher (bapt ????) - Ann Dew
↓
William Belcher (bapt 1686) - Mary either Woodley or George
↓
William Belcher (bapt 1714) - Elizabeth King
↓
James Belcher (bapt 1757) - Rachel Matthews
↓
William Belcher (bapt 1786) - Mary Ann Giles
↓
John Belcher (bapt 1829) - Jemima Elderfield
↓
Frederick Belcher (bapt 1851) - Emma Froude
↓
Charles Belcher (bapt 1889) - Sarh May Saunders
↓
my mother Norah
It is the first of the William Belchers i'm trying to unravel and I've listed it this way as there too many William Belchers and hope it can be more readily understood.
Alan
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Hello Alan
Unfortunately I can't help with the birth/baptism of Jonathan BELCHER but I think I can clarify the marriage of William BELCHER and Mary:
A William BELCHER married Mary WOODLEY at West Hanney on 10 November 1711 and they baptised the following children in the same parish (West Hanney):
19 Oct 1712 Elizabeth
26 Dec 1714 William
23 Dec 1716 Thomas
10 May 1719 Mary
19 Nov 1721 Ann
Another William BELCHER (of Wantage) married Mary GEORGE at West Hanney on 20 Feb 1714/5 and they baptised the following children at Wantage:
1 Jan 1715/6 Richard
9 Mar 1717/8 William
14 Feb 1719/20 Mary
William of Wantage might be the son of Richard BELCHER and Edith (formerly WILKINS) who was baptised at Wantage on 2 Mar 1655/6.
As you have already surmised, William of West Hanney (who married Mary WOODLEY) is probably the son of Jonathan BELCHER and Ann DEW - and I would say he is the one baptised in 1690 even though there appears to be no burial for the one baptised in 1686/7. The reason I believe he is the son of Jonathan is that in his will proved 3 May 1729 he names his two brothers, Richard BELCHER and Henry BELCHER, as trustees. These are two of the sons of Jonathan and Ann baptised in 1691 and 1699 respectively. In his will William is described as a wheelwright and leaves his property to his children - William, Thomas, Mary and Ann - after the decease of his wife Mary. The value of his property was assessed at £5.18s.2d.
As far as Jonathan is concerned, as I have already stated, I can't really help with him. The only thing I can say is that there appears to be a gap in the West Hanney parish registers between 1653 and 1666 into which he might fit.
Orpheus
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Hello Orpheus,
I am very grateful to you for your detailed reply. You have more or
less confirmed the way I was thinking that it was William Belcher &
Mary Woodley who I should follow up. In fact it was this couple
I first recorded as my ancestors but decided to go with the other Mary George when looking for other family members.
I do have a set of fiche records for Hanney and there are many gaps
both in the baptisms and marriages also a few pages with parts missing so its quite conceivable that Jonathon Belcher's birth/baptism falls within these gaps.
You mentioned William's will - do you have a copy or how did you get the value of his property?
I appreciate your information. Thank you very much.
Alan
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Hello Alan
Yes, I do have a copy of the will and inventory of Will BELCHER, wheelwright of West Hanney. Although I can't send you a copy I can type out the will and send it to you in a PM if you wish. If you want a copy of the original you will need to apply to the Berkshire Record Office where I believe it is held. Sorry, but I don't have the reference number. I do, however, have the reference number of the will and inventory of Jonathan BELCHER of East Hanney, yeoman, proved 1730, which you might like to request at the same time. The reference is D/A1/49/134
Orpheus
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Orpheus,
I have sent you a PM
Alan
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Allen I am worried about a couple of things can you help please?
Where did William marry Elizabeth King the marriage does not show up in the extrated Family search file forWest Hanney
Why don't you think William was;
William bapt 28 Jan 1730 son of Henry Belcher ?
Some one has contacted asking about Esther FROUD (1834) do you know if she was baptised in West Hanney about 1834 as either FROUD or BELCHER and was James BELCHER her father? He and Caroline FROUD married 4 June 1835
Trees
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Hello Trees,
William Belcher married (his 2nd wife) Elizabeth King on 24-4-1753 in Hanney. I know there is a "submitted" entry on
the IGI but I have also the fiche records for this parish and the details are correct.
In tracing my tree back I got to James Belcher (b.1757) who was the son of William Belcher & Elizabeth. It turned out to
be William & Elizabeth mentioned above, all born West Hanney.
James Belcher (B.1757) married (his 2nd wife) Elizabeth Angel on 159-1792 and of their 10 children
there was another James Belcher (b.1808) who married Caroline Froud (b.1808 East Challow) in June 1835 Hanney as
you have listed.
My fiche records only go up to 1812 for baptisms, marriages and burials to 1783 so I am unable to look up anything about
Esther Froud/Belcher
I hope helps to clarify some info for you.
regards
Alan
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Thanks Allen it was the second marriage that threw me its Esther FROUD(Belcher ) who is causing the problems she had a child Walter in 1855 who was brought up by her parents she married shortly after and on the 1861 census has a Daughter older than Walter so it looks like she married a widower she really is a mystery woman
Thanks for the help
H.
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Allen do you know who the parents of Esther BELCHER born W Hanney abt 1804 were? she was the wife of George Gore and kept the Harrow Inn in Ilsley in 1861
H.
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Hi Trees,
I don't have an Esther Belcher born/bapt. in the Hanney PRs . I did just check again on the fiche from 1800-1812 but drew a blank.
On the IGI there are about three Esther's recorded from 1797 to 1804. The entry for 1798 I checked with the
PRs (ex OFHS) that I have and it clearly states;
Esther BELSHER bapt. 14-9-1798 (b.6-9) dau of Thomas & Mary whereas the IGI entry lists Martha as the mother.
Some of the IGI entries are "submitted" but I noticed there were about two that are "extracted"
Does this help?
Alan
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In 1861 she had a niece Elizabeth Belcher b 1837 W. Hanney with her. Could the niece give a lead to Esther? I wonder if Esther was a widow as she married about 35 ???
H
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Hi Trees,
I can't help any more regarding the Hanney PRs as they only go up to 1812 for both baptisms & marriages,
and only to 1783 for burials.
I understand later records up to about 1836 are held by the Wilts & Swindon Records Office, in Swindon.
Alan
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In 1861 she had a niece Elizabeth Belcher b 1837 W. Hanney with her. Could the niece give a lead to Esther?
The only Elizabeth BELCHER baptised at Hanney at the right time to be the above is a daughter of James BELCHER and Caroline (nee FROUDE). Elizabeth was baptised on 22 May 1836.
Orpheus
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How many Belcher families are in the area at the time? Are you sure you have checked them all?
Meg
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Hi Orpheus that is the only one I can see too, but James had neither sister nor sister in law Esther ???
However this Elizabeth had a brother Henry whose first wife was Katherine Dore daughter of George Dore and Esther Belcher so would the sister of a son in law be known as a Niece in those days?
That however still leaves me wondering who Esther's parents were or if she was widow when she married George Dore whose widow was she
My connection with this puzzle is through the FROUDs
Trees quite puzzled still
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Seems like the answer will be the marriage certificate of George DORE and Esther BELCHER Wantage Reg. Dist. 6 493 Dec Qtr 1843
Orpheus
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between us we have chased several Belcher families in the area yes it looks like buying the certificate is the only way unless I can get to to the RO soon Many thanks
Trees
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Hi
My partner is Charles Belcher.. son of Fredrick Belcher and Nephew of Thomas Belcher from Berkshire. Any relation ?? X
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Hi Tamara P,
A very warm welcome to Rootschat.
I do have many "Belcher's" in my tree as my mother was one the d/o Charles born 1889 in Hagbourne, Berks.
To enable me to look further, could you please let me have more details of Frederick, Thomas etc.
When/where born etc.
Looking forward to hearing more from you.
Alan
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Thank you 😊
Thomas Belcher.. b 1938.
Fredrick his brother I will find out tomorrow.. Charles Belcher (my chappy) is 1960..
I think they are from Wantage way..
Tam
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Hi Tam,
As some of these people are are or may still be alive, I think you will have to be careful as Rootschat has a policy of not allowing searches for living persons.
It can be done using the private messaging system but you have to have made at least 3 messages first. By replying to this posting I see you will have made 3 which allows the PM (private messaging) to work.
There are a huge lot of "Belcher's" around and as you are talking about recent times it may be neccessary to purchase birth &/or marriage certificates. Mainly because the details are not freely available on-line to view.
However, if you let me know more, I'll see what can be found.
There are many R/chatters around and i have found them to be very helpful in my searches.
Alan
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Trees,
I have just sent a PM to you.
Alan
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Hi
I can't see the PM X
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Hi Tam,
My PM has gone to another Rootschatter named "Trees"
Sorry if you thought it was going to you.
Whilst your on, you were going to let me know about Frederick. Because they may be living I can't reveal too many details. If you wish to send me a PM please do by clicking on my name "ribbo39" which should open up a window and from there you can send a PM.
Alan
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Hi good to see the old thread wake up
Now this is my present take on the situation its full of folk not waiting for the vicar's blessing :o which complicates the situation
Starting with Caroline FROUD (1809) she had Esther FROUD in 1834
Caroline then married James Belcher 4 Jun 1835
After that Esther was known as Belcher until she married John LEE in 1858 as Esther FROUD
but Esther had a son Walter in 1855 before she married
WALTER is registered as Walter FROUD no mother's surname on the GRO index
On the 1851 census he is Walter F (Froud?)Belcher living with his Grandparents as their son
1961 Walter BELCHER is with his uncle Henry Belcher (Henry was a son of James Belcher and Caroline Froud)
Walter married as BELCHER and gave his father as James Belcher not surprising as his Grandfather James had bought him up
Now as it happens there were two Walter Belchers in the area both born in 1856 one in Wantage District mother maiden name East and one in Abingdon district mother maiden name Sandbrook
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Hi again,
Glad to hear you're still on the Belcher trail.
I had deduced that Walter F Belcher may have been the illeg. son of one of James & Caroline's children but couldn't pin him down as to his mother. Do you have an exact bapt. and location for Walter F ?
I have him in the 1861 living with James & Caroline.
On the same census there is a Martha Belcher and I think she could be the d/o Elizabeth b.1836 Do you have anything firm to go on?.
Elizabeth I believe died aged 33 in 1870 W.Hanney and in 1861 she is living with Esther Dore (nee Belcher) Innkeeper the mother-in-law of Henry Belcher.
Alan
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One of the other Walters was son of Charles and Ann. Charles b1816 East Hendred
Marriage Culham, Oxfordshire 27 Oct 1836 Charles Belcher and Ann East
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Hi,
I see Charles who married Ann East in 1836 was the son of James Belcher - which James? - presumably James Belcher & his 1st wife Rachel but I don't have any details.
The Charles you listed earlier is recorded as the s/o William & Elizabeth in E.Hendred who may be the s/o James & Rachel b1786 Hanney.
Do you have a birth/bapt for Walter s/o Charles & Ann?
Intriguing is it notr.
Alan
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Now as you say Elizabeth was niece of Esther DORE who was the widow of George DORE their daughter Katherine married Henry Belcher the Uncle Walter was with in 1871.
But Esther Dore was nee Belcher born 1804 West Hanney do you have a baptism for her?
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No I'm sorry to say. I have taken her birth year from the 1851 census in West Ilsley which indicates born 1804 in Hanney.
I have the "fiche" records for Hanney but the bapisms only go up to 1812 and having extracted all the "Belchers" nothing for Esther. So either she doesn't know her age or was born elsewhere.
Interestingly, in the 1851 she & George Dore, a farmer employing 20 labourers, had no children listed only 2 servants. So where does Catherine Dore (b.1845) d/o George & Esther come from. I can't see her birth in either East or West Ilsley's records. In both the 1851 & 61 censuses Catherine is away from home as a scholar in Gloucestershire.
I also have a feeling that George, being 8 years older than Esther, may have been married previously.
George & Esther married 1843 where??
Alan
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OK lets have another session
George Dore and Esther 's marriage we have only got from Free BMD in Wantage DIstrict
Katherine Dore's GRO entry gives her mother as maiden name BELCHER so unless we can find another
Dore/Belcher couple it points at George and Esther I'll look fir a previous marriage for George but Katherine was born well after the marriage so she must be from the George and Esther marriage...unless we do find a second Dore/Belcher couple.
The daughters of James Belcher and Caroline Froud who could be mother of Martha are; Esther, Elizabeth and Mary. Esther had already registered Walter as FROUD and if Martha was her child would most likely register her as Froud too but Martha is registered as Belcher in 1856 so I think we can discount Esther
Martha was born in 1856 when Elizabeth was 20 and Mary 17
Elizabeth as you know is working with her Aunt Esther Dore in 1861 she died in 1870
Mary married in 1867 but where was she in 1861? she could also be Martha's mum
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George Dore died later than we thought
George Dore 63 abode West Ilsley Buried 27 Jul 1860 St Andrew Boxford
I wondered why Boxford and found a marriage in Boxford for a George Dore and Mary Hughes in 1814 and a death for Mary Dore in Boxford in 1826 for a Mary dore age 36 which could well be a first marriage. I wonder if there was a marriage between Mary and Esther and when did he move to West Isley?
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Hi Trees,
Yes - Mary Dore buried 30-7-1826 (aged 36) Boxford.
I see there are one or two other "Dore's" buried Boxford which could be why he is there.
Alan
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Hi Trees,
Mary married in 1867 but where was she in 1861? she could also be Martha's mum
I feel the Mary Belcher born about 1839 W.Hanney (no firm dates) could be the one in 1851 census for Wantage as a visitor with Francis Aldridge, 69, Blacksmith, d/o Harriet, 41 (HO.107 1689)
Still can't find her in 1861
Alan
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No Mary is still with her parents in HO107/1689 fo 11 p15
Mary Daur 11 Scholar Berks West Hanney
so who was the visitor in Wantage?
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By the way
Now as it happens there were two Walter Belchers in the area both born in 1856 one in Wantage District mother maiden name East and one in Abingdon district mother maiden name Sandbrook
[/quote]
The Walter from Abingdon died BELCHER, WALTER 0 1856 D Quarter in ABINGDON
The one with parents Charles and Ann nee East is on the 1861 census with his parents and a farm servant in 1871
Charkes was born 1815/16 East Hendred he is on censuses between 1841-1881 and died in 1882
George Dore and Mary nee Hugheshad four children baptised in Boxford
William Butcher Dore 1816-1848 (he died in London)
George 1818-1827
Elizabeth 1820-1841
Sarah 1825 died age 2 days
all the baptisms have him as a yeoman now it is common for a yeoman to be or become a bailiff so no surprise there
I cant find a middle marriage for him only William Butcher and Elizabeth were alive in 1841 but I cant find either on the 1841 census.when Mary nee Hughes died three of the children were around aged 10,8,and 6. I feel George must have married again or who was looking after the children ???
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Well I have found the "Dore" bapts. you mentioned including the burials for all except Wm. Butcher Dore.
I think Elizabeth Dore was buried 12-11-1841 aged 19. So of their 4 children only one seems to survived and that is Wm.Butcher Dore. All these in Boxford St.Andrew.
I must admit there seems a big gap from when Mary dies in 1826 to when George remarries in 1843 Wantage Dist?? Like you I can't see another marriage for him unless his parents or other family members looked after the children.
Alan
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William Butcher 's burial is on An...ry its 23 Jul 1848 Saint Marylebone, Westminster, his age given as 34 address Great Barlow St
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Hi trees,
Many thanks for that - how many William Butcher Dore's can there be? I saw many entries there for various years.
Also have sent a PM to you.
Alan
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at least two ;D
William Butcher Dore bapt. Boxford 14 Oct 1818 son of George and Mary
23 Jul 1848 Saint Marylebone, Westminster, his age given as 34 address Great Barlow St
William Butcher Dore married Jane Salt Q4 1838 Bloomsbury
William Butcher Dore bap 2 Dec 1840 Bloomsbury St George, Camden, Son of William Butcher and Jane Dore Bloomsbury
death DORE, WILLIAM BUTCHER 1 1842 Q2 ST GILES IN THE FIELDS & ST GEORGE
WBD and Jane also had an Elizabeth born 1 Feb 1846 bap on her third birthday daur of William Butcher and Jane DORE 24 Great Barlow St father servant deceased
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The marriage was in St Giles in the Field WBD was a footman son of George DORE farmer she was Daur of Richard SALT a gardener both of Bedford Square I wonder if he was footman of the house where Richard Salt was gardener
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oops a son George born 7 nov 1838 baptised in Bloomsbury 16 Dec to William Butcher and Jane dore of Duke St Servant
another daughter Mary Ann born in 1843
Jane is on the 1851 census with George,Mary Ann and Elizabeth
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Hi Trees,
Have sent you a PM earlier today.
Alan
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My mother was a Belcher and to show how it all fits together I'll list the ancestry;
Jonathon Belcher (bapt ????) - Ann Dew
↓
William Belcher (bapt 1686) - Mary either Woodley or George
↓
William Belcher (bapt 1714) - Elizabeth King
↓
James Belcher (bapt 1757) - Rachel Matthews
↓
William Belcher (bapt 1786) - Mary Ann Giles
↓
John Belcher (bapt 1829) - Jemima Elderfield
↓
Frederick Belcher (bapt 1851) - Emma Froude
↓
Charles Belcher (bapt 1889) - Sarh May Saunders
↓
my mother Norah
It is the first of the William Belchers i'm trying to unravel and I've listed it this way as there too many William Belchers and hope it can be more readily understood.
Alan
Would you happen to know if there are two Ann Dews who married a Belcher around the same time, one marrying William Belcher and the other Jonathan Belcher?
Thankyou
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Hi Kirst,
Jonathon Belcher - m - Ann Dew 3-8-1676 in North Hinksey, Berks - Jonathon was from West Hanney & Ann was from East Hanney. (taken from the CD of marriages from the Oxon FHS)
This is the only marriage I have found - there may be others.
I don't know about other Ann "Dews" but have noticed different spellings; (Doo, Doe) in the past.
If you should find other "Belcher" marriages to a Dew, please let me knmow.
Alan
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Thank you Alan,
I have been searching more and I think the Ann/e who William married may have been Anne Rice, married in London in 1682. Parents of Benjamin Belcher baptism 7 Jul 1698 Wantage, Berkshire, England. Most of the trees that I've come across on Ancsty have Benjamin's parents as William Belcher and Ann Dew having married in either 1678 North Hinksey or 1683 East Hanney but I don't seem to be able to find anything to confirm this hence my earlier query.
The search continues. Many thanks for your message.
Kind regards, Kirst
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Hi again Alan,
Have you been able to determine who the parents of Jonathon Belcher (who married Ann Dew 3-8-1676) are? In my tree there are hints showing to the names as Francis Belcher & Ann Stampe but I have found the hints to be more of a possibility.
Thank you, Kirst
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Hi Kirst,
I think Jonathon Belcher (recorded as Beltcher) was bapt. 24-5-1644 Wantage (s/o William & Jane Endall).
Looking thru the records for Wantage Sts.Peter & Paul, I found 7 other baptisms from 1635/6 to 1652
and a marriage for William & Jane 12-4-1635 Wantage.
No other baptism for William was found but Jane appears as bapt... 1-4-1613 (d/o John & Elizabeth)
Hope these details help.
PS. I have seen the Francis Belcher - Ann Stampe records and Francis is the d/o William (Philiipa Brooke) there may be a connection further back but I haven't progressed this line.
Alan
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Hi Alan,
Thank you very much, appreciate the names of Jonahton's parents.
Regards your "PS. I have seen the Francis Belcher - Ann Stampe records and Francis is the d/o William (Philiipa Brooke) there may be a connection further back but I haven't progressed this line." - sorry, I'm a little confused where you mention 'Francis is the d/o', I am unsure who the female Francis is?
Also do you have Tame in your tree? I do and thought maybe I'd seen some previous posts relating to the Tames.
Kind regards, Kirst
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William and Elizabeth King
Why don't you think William was;
William bapt 28 Jan 1730 son of Henry Belcher ?
Its been ages since I looked at the Belcher tree and many personal events have hindered my thought processes along the way!
But I am still not convinced that Elizabeth King's William was not the son of Henry.
I had a burial for what I thought was this William
William BELCHER 6 Jan 1813 St James West Hanney 83 Lyford
this giving a birth in 1730 which matches Henry's son do you have another burial which is conclusively Elizabeth King's husband showing his age?
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Hi Kirst,
My apologies - I confused myself, that's trying to write a message early in the morning - still asleep.
Francis is the s/o Richard Belcher & Elisabeth Butler who married 15-1-1613 in Childrey, Berks. They had 2 children in Childrey before moving back to Denchworth where Francis was bapt. in 1627.
I meant to convey that Francis (above) married Ann Stamp in Wantage 1652.
The Richard Belcher above is the s/o William & Philipp[sic] weho married in Denchworth 1584.
Yes I have many "Tame"s recorded
Alan
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Hello Trees,
Long time no speak - it's also been ages since I last looked at the Belcher ancestry;
Using the latest CD release from the Oxon FHS (OXF-WAN01 - 4th edition) there are these baptisms in Hanney;
28-1-1729 William Belcher s/o Henry
8-12-1734 " " " Richard
5-3-1737 " " " William
Burials;
6-1-1813 William Belcher, of Lyford (aged 83) "an Alms-man"
This entry obviously ties in with the entry as the s/o Henry. The other "William Belcher" burials were much later in 1865,1867 & 1868.
I can't give any earlier burials as the "Burial Register 1783 to 1812 has been lost"
Does these help?
Alan
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Hi Kirst,
My apologies - I confused myself, that's trying to write a message early in the morning - still asleep.
Francis is the s/o Richard Belcher & Elisabeth Butler who married 15-1-1613 in Childrey, Berks. They had 2 children in Childrey before moving back to Denchworth where Francis was bapt. in 1627.
I meant to convey that Francis (above) married Ann Stamp in Wantage 1652.
The Richard Belcher above is the s/o William & Philipp[sic] weho married in Denchworth 1584.
Yes I have many "Tame"s recorded
Alan
Thank you Alan! This all makes sense now. I had been trying to find if the Jonathon Belcher line was connected to the Richard Belcher & Elizabeth Butler line but I've not as yet been able to find this.
Are by chance any of your Tames related to the Hunsdons of Sparsholt?
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Hi Kirst,
Are by chance any of your Tames related to the Hunsdons of Sparsholt?
None that I can see.
Alan