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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Durham => Topic started by: Preshous on Thursday 08 October 09 20:43 BST (UK)
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Hi
I am looking for any information for the parents of Joseph Burnside born circa 1826 in Cockerton.
I have pretty much all the information from census records and marriages, he was married twice both certificates show no father. I know that begs the question was he illegitimate, very possible. I have trawled the IGI & the BTs to no avail. The only clue I can find is via the census which is that Joseph is living with his uncle Robert Burnside (b circa 1780 at Brafferton) in 1841,1851 & 1861. If Robert was indeed Josephs Uncle then the lack of a fathers name would suggest that Joseph was born to a sister of Roberts, and heres the bug bear, possible sisters for Robert show as being a wee bit to old to be bearing children ( youngest I can find would have been 49 when Joseph was born, not impossible, but unlikely) So hopefully a fresh pair of eyes can help me with this.
Gary
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have you looked under the name 'jos burnsides' as he is head of household aged 36 in 1861 born in cockerton, which would be your josephs age, unfortunatly where i found him (igi pilot search) there were no futher details, (to add im not the greatest at searching though)
just a thought
:)
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Hi Inicky
Thank you for your interest. As I mentioned I have pretty much everything on Joseph as regards census entries.
You are right about Jos Burnsides in the 1861 census they are one and the same. Joseph consistently gave his birth place as cockerton in census returns. I was hoping someone may have access to the parish registers for cockerton. Also while I am here I would like to thank you for the link to the non conformist (Wesleyan) baptisms for the gateshead area, very useful.
Gary
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The parish church for Cockerton is Darlington (in BT's under Parlington). You have looked there I take it? I see the records don't so that high.
Up to 1812 I see three Burnsides baptisms. I suppose you could keep a name in back of your mind:
Mary Burnside born 10 Aug 1799, baptised 23 Aug 1800 1st daughter of John Burnside, labourer, native of Brafferton in the parish of Aycliff by his wife Ann Parkin, native of Monk Heslington (sic) in this county.
I think Mary married in 1835 to a Francis Dinsdale if it is the same Mary Burnside.
Janis
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Hi Janis
Yes I did check the BTs for Parlington but they only go upto 1820 :'( my Joseph was born circa 1826.
Gary
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I am thinking the uncle might be a great uncle and Robert and John are brothers being both born Brafferton.
Looking at Aycliff in the IGI both Robert and John have a father named Joseph.
Janis
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Hi Janis
I did think (and still do) that Robert could be a great uncle. The age difference was just a wee bit beyond the norm.
I think I need to investigate a later generation of Burnside. I did notice a Benjamin Burnside which warrents further investigation. However without a birth/baptism for my Joseph it would only be speculation.
Gary
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Hi Gary,
I have done some research on the Burnside families but don't have a Joseph or Robert that would fit yours. They will probably link up somewhere and I can check for Joseph's baptism next week at the library.
Cockerton was in the parish of St Cuthbert's, Darlington, until Holy Trinity opened.
Regards,
Colin
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Hi Colin
A lookup would be most appreciated. As it seems doubtfull there would be a father named a mother would be a real bonus.
Regards Gary
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I have a Joseph Burnside on my line who was born a little earlier in Cockerton, he may be an ancestor of your Joseph, he was a farmer's hind and lived at Oak Tree House, Cockerton in Darlington in 1785 when his daughter Lavinia was born. Lavinia married George Cowley in Haughton Le Skerne, Darlington in 1818 (as Lovehannah Burnside) it's possible they are relatives of yours. However, I have not researched this line yet and the only other scrap of information I have is a grave in Billingham (where the Cowleys migrated) right next to that of George and Lovehannah's son which reads: In Loving memory of Joseph Robert Burnside, youngest son of Joseph and Elizabeth Burnside who died May 9th 1909 aged 23 years, also Elizabeth, beloved wife of Joseph Robert Burnside and mother of the above who died June 11th 1917 aged 65 years.
Although I have not researched this line properly I found the above scrap online on familysearch as a lot of Darlington's parish records are available to view online as scanned images- much more than you get for an IGN search on the same website, if you didn't know this, go to family search's homepage, highlight 'Search Records' and click on 'Record Search Pilot', then click 'Browse our record collections' a map will appear, click on the UK, click on 'English diocese of durham bishops transcripts circa 1700-1900, then click on Durham, you should get a menu which includes parish records for Darlington (which includes Cockerton), Aycliffe, Coniscliffe and Haughton Le Skerne, click on the one you want, then select the time period and click 'view images', it has saved quite a few trips to Durham Records for me and it's nice to view the original records.
Hope this helps,
Dan :)
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Hi Dan
Thanks for the info. Unfortunately the Burnsides on the gravestone are not mine (yet). My Joseph died in 1872.
As previously mentioned he married twice, first wife was Jane Wedgewood with whom he had at least 5 children. Jane died in 1861. His second wife was Elizabeth Richardson with whom had at least 4 children. Elizabeth went onto remarry in 1874. I have trawled the BTs for some time now hoping to get any info however the records I seek do not appear to be available. With any luck Colin will find something out from the parish records for cockerton.
Regards
Gary
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Hi Gary,
I thought I'd better let you know that I might not get to the library this week as I've just come down with a cold and I don't want to spread it.
If you or Dan ever decide to research the Burnside families I would suggest having a padded wall nearby. They are a nightmare because they all tended to use the same names at the same time.
As an example, Dan mentions Lavinia born 1785 at Cockerton. I have Lavinia born 1786 at Blackwell, both in the Parish of St Cuthbert's. Which one married George Cowley at Houghton le Skerne, which was also in the Parish of St Cuthbert's?
Or could it be yet another Lavinia as both would have been in their 30's by 1818? Early marriage records did not show father's name which makes for a lot of guesswork.
Colin
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Hi Colin
Thanks for letting me know. I hope your cold is not to bad. I am in no rush for info on my Joseph. I know what you mean about the names and dates. I still think the lack of a fathers name on the marriage certificates could prove to the biggest clue. Again thank you for your interest. Get well soon.
Gary
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Hi Gary,
It was a disappointing search. No Joseph Burnside baptised at St Cuthbert's from Jan 1820 to Feb 1831. I re-checked for any Joseph baptised in 1825 or 1826 but there was nothing likely. I wondered if I had the year wrong so checked the census which confirmed it. His uncle (?) Robert was born Brafferton so I wondered if Joseph might have been baptised at Aycliffe. Unfortunately the library is having a recurrent problem with a leaking roof and the microfilm storage is cordoned off so I couldn't check.
I don't like being beaten so I checked the BTs for Aycliffe and still found nothing for Joseph, but there was an interesting burial on 15 Feb 1824 for Elizabeth Burnside age 82 of Bottom House, Parish of Darlington. This is the neighbouring farm to Holly House where Joseph and Robert were from 1851.
It seems to me that Robert could be the son of Elizabeth, and as he was born Brafferton, she would have moved to Cockerton after c1778, presumably with her husband. It might be worth trawling the BTs for St Cuthbert's to build up a possible mother or father for Joseph.
If I can help further, then let me know.
Colin
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Hi Colin
Many thanks for taking the time to look for my Joseph. It looks like he will remain a brick wall for a good while longer. The Elizabeth death seems promising if she proves to be the mother of Robert then that would/should mean she was at least the grandmother of my Joseph, and possibly his great grandmother.
Once again thank you for your efforts.
Gary
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To Colin & Dan
I have spent quite a bit of time over the weekend trying to unravel this mystery & I came to the following conclusion.( I managed to build a rather large,and still growing excel document)
There is only one Robert Burnside/s born in Brafferton c 1779 with the father Joseph. I have trawled the BT's for all possible siblings and can only find the ones listed in the IGI. At some stage after the birth of Robert c1779 Joseph & his wife ( I suspect she was called Elizabeth) moved to Cockerton. I noted the birth of Lavina c 1785 with a father as Joseph ( who I believe was also the father of the aforementioned Robert). As you will probably be aware there is a distinct lack of births/marriages/deaths for a Joseph Burnside/s listed on the IGI. The NBI does throw a few clues however, in particular the death of Joseph in 1818 at Darlington St Cuthbert aged 76 &, as Colin mentioned Elizabeth who was buried in Aycliffe in 1824 aged 82, were these the parents of the Aycliffe/ Cockerton Burnside/s, it seems a very good possibility. Colin you are quite right a padded room is an absolute must when researching the Burnside/s surname. Hopefully I can exhaust my search of the BT's in a couple of weeks( my lamp oil, pitmans speak for eyesight, permitting) and then move on to original PR's. Please feel free to offer any guidance.
Gary
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Hi Gary,
When I checked the Aycliffe BTs I think there were gaps and 1779 was missing. It might be worth checking the dates. I'm a bit busy for the next few days as we have a visitor from New Zealand. The IGI has extracted records for Aycliffe but I'm not sure if they are from the BTs or the actual registers.
I recall doing a quick check for any burnside/burnsides on the census, with a key word of cockerton, and found a farmer Robert age 60+ in 1841. This could be Joseph's uncle and not the one who is in the same household as Joseph at Mainsforth in 1841. I hope you can follow this.
Colin
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Looking at my HM Woods transcript of Aycliffe parish baptisms:
24 Oct 1779 Robert son of Joseph Burnsides, Brafferton, baptised.
Janis
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Hi Colin
You are right about the gap in the BT's for Aycliffe. I think you are right about the Robert in the 1841 census in Cockerton. The index shows him as alone however the image has an Isabella West at the same address. Robert had a sister named Isabel a quick check of the IGI brought up a marriage for Isabella Burnsides & Thos West in 1795 in Gainsborough, Lincoln, is this wishful thinking on my part.
Thank you Janis for confirming the IGI entry. Every little helps.
Gary
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And there's not much I can add that you don't already know I'm afraid. I have saved this line for a rainy day as it is not one where I had any relatives to talk to about it. I can give you the following snippits whether they are any help is another matter...
If there is one line and Lavinia is in it, then I'm pretty certain that Lovehannah is her, her grandson lives with them for both the 1861 and 1851 census (I don't know who the child belongs to), he called his daughter Lavinia, the Cowleys also use a corruption of the name with daughters called Vinia/Vianer and Vina. On the 1851 census Lavinia is down as Vinah and the troubled ancestry transcriber has mis-written this as Sarah.
I was simply going to do what you have done and trawl and list any Cowley/Burnside mention in Cockerton, Brafferton and Aycliffe. I was also going to trawl Haughton Le Skerne as being Lavinia's parish of marriage. Lavinia and George Cowley are on every census in Walworth which could be a possible avenue of research also if her family followed her. The Cowleys stick around the Walworth and Piercebridge area until they migrate to Billingham, it looks like the original George Cowley and Lavinia die in Walworth though and don't make the trip but i have no death dates for them as yet or evidence of them beyond 1861. The remaining Cowleys spend time in Carlbury, Coniscliffe/Piercebridge and then move mostly on mass by Nov 1862 to Billingham and stay there, have a thousand children and are probably now related to every one there judging by the number of marriage certificates I have.
I also think that the grave I mentioned could well be the Burnsides further down the line, I have been through every Billingham record and there is no Burnisde presence there except for these two burials, that plus the reoccurrence of the names Joseph and Robert is suggestive of maintained family links across the distance.
The only other relatively useless thing I have is two logged possiblities for Burnsides found on the census accidently when I was looking for something else, they were: Elizabeth Burnside on the 1841 census living at Bondgate in Darlington with Ambrose aged 18 an ag lab , and Matilda aged 16 a farm girl. The other was logged as Mary Burnside aged 51 in 1851 and was the toll bar keeper ay Gainford, she has a visitor from Piercebridge stauing weith her and a grandchild from Cockerton. In 1841 she is an ag lab living with daughter Jane in Denton.
This is all I have at present I'm afraid.
Dan :)
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Hi Dan
Thanks for the input. It seems I am going to find every Burnside/s but the one I want :'(. Its just going to be a case of trying to build family units were ever possible. They certainly dont help the cause by using the same names at the same times.
Gary
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a lot of Darlington's parish records are available to view online as scanned images
Dan :)
Thanks for that, Dan, I had no idea this facility was available. I too have Burnsides from Darlington/Aycliffe in my line
Elizabeth Burnside on the 1841 census living at Bondgate in Darlington with Ambrose aged 18 an ag lab , and Matilda aged 16 a farm girl.
Dan :)
Elizabeth [Watson] was my3xgreatgrandmother. Her husband was also Ambrose Burnside, a Potter/Brazier/Traveller and they married 8/10/1803 at Auckland St Andrew. I have only been able to find baptisms of their children in St Oswalds, Durham (Shincliffe) although the earliest I can find, Elizabeth bn. 3/5/1808, is shown as their “fourth child” in the baptism register so potentially plenty of room there for a Joseph and a Robert?? Ambrose was baptised bp. 16/8/1778 at Darlington and had a sister named, Lavinia, baptised 12/11/1786 along with ten other siblings, all the children of Edward and Elizabeth [Bousfield].
Ermy
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Hi Ermy
I have found the burial records for 4 of your Burnsides children + Elizabeth. I would be happy to provide the links and image numbers should you wish to have them.
Gary
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Hi Ermy,
Here are the baptism details for their first 2 children at Auckland St Andrew.
1804, Elizabeth Burnside born Nov 20th, bapt Nov 28th, 1st daur of Ambrose Burnside, Potter, native of Blackwell, by his wife Elizabeth Watson, native of this Parish.
1806, Jane Burnside born Jan 15th, bapt Jan 18th, 2nd daur of Ambrose Burnside of Bishop Auckland, native of Blackwell near Darlington, by his wife Eliz. Watson native of Bishop Auckland.
;D ;D ;D
On the down side, I have the above Ambrose as being the son of Benjamin, baptised on 22 May 1779 at St Cuthbert's Darlington, and the one bapt in 1778 as the son of Edward, and being married to Elizabeth Hull of Staithes in Feb 1802 at St Cuthbert's.
???
Colin
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I would be happy to provide the links and image numbers should you wish to have them.
Gary
Yes please, Gary, that would be great.
On the down side, I have the above Ambrose as being the son of Benjamin, baptised on 22 May 1779 at St Cuthbert's Darlington, and the one bapt in 1778 as the son of Edward, and being married to Elizabeth Hull of Staithes in Feb 1802 at St Cuthbert's.
Colin
Thanks for the extra children, Colin. Hmmm, yes, I dithered between the two Ambroses but leant towards 'my' Ambrose as the son of Edward because of the similarity of names in both families. What led you to decide the other way round?
Ermy
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Hi Ermy
I will post the link for Edward's wife tonight and the children in the morning.
Click on this link http://www.rootschat.com/links/076m/
Just in case you don't how to proceed from here, this is a quick run down.
left click Durham on the first page, in the next list (Parish) scroll down until you find PARLINGTON, left click it, you should now have 1762-1820 Darlington,St Cuthbert, left click on that and just underneath you should see 629 images, left click and that will take you to page 1 of the transcript. In the image box ( should be number 1) clear contents and type 86 and hit enter on your keyboard and that will take you to the page you want.
Sorry for the lecture but if you have never used the BT's before it can be a bit of a minefield.
Gary
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Thanks for the extra children, Colin. Hmmm, yes, I dithered between the two Ambroses but leant towards 'my' Ambrose as the son of Edward because of the similarity of names in both families. What led you to decide the other way round?
Ermy
Hi Ermy,
I used the padded-wall method ::)
Then I applied a bit of logic 8)
Elizabeth Hull was a widow with 2 sons and could have had daughters. The first child to Ambrose was Edward, and he was said to be 3rd son. The 1779 Ambrose would have been aged 22 so would be less likely to be able to afford to take on a ready-made family.
Any thoughts on this?
Colin
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Ermy,
I forgot to ask. Were any of your Longstaffs from Blackwell?
I have a photo of my grandad and his brother with a Mr Longstaff standing between them. They were all in DLI uniforms and it must have been just after they joined up for WW1.
Colin
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Hi Colin,
Occupation is no help as both are potters or tinkers at various points, as are their fathers. There's only nine months between the baptisms of Ambrose1 bap Aug 1778 (son of Edward) and Ambrose2 bap May 1779 (son of Benjamin), though it's not clear how old either was at baptism. Did Ambrose and Eliz (Harrison) have any other children, do you know?
My descent is from Sarah, daughter of Ambrose and Eliz (Watson), who was born in Shincliffe on 6/12/1817. She married Joseph Hindle in April 1836, after the birth of their oldest son, Joseph Burnsides aka Hindle in Jan that year. Most of the names of their 12 children seem to derive from the Hindle side of the family, there is neither an Edward nor a Benjamin, but there is a Watson Hindle born 1853. I haven't followed the Burnsides down further than Sarah and some of her siblings. Their middle son, my great-grandfather, John Hindle, came south to Kent in the early 1880s. I have a photo taken of John and his wife and two small children probably as a token to leave behind as they never went back oop north.
Ermy
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Hi Ermy,
Thanks for the details of your side which shows that I've got some details wrong in mine. I had assumed that Elizabeth and family in Bondgate in the 1841 census were mine and she was Elizabeth (Harrison nee Hull), but it's now fairly clear that they are yours. The daughter Diana married James Barlow and the witnesses were Francis Dinsdale and Sarah Hindle.
As a result, I now only have the one baptism in 1803 for my Edward and it looks as though the family disappear after that.
Colin
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Hello Preshous
Do you have an Isabella Burnsides and Ambrose Burnsides possibly of Belmont New Durham in your data?
My great grandmother Mary Smith!! is a very elusive lady and seems to have some connection to the Burnside/s family the above two being witnesses at her marriage 1869
However, they seemed to move around between Guisborough and Durham, I am assuming they were either travellers or tinkers etc.
I still need to check the census returns.
Ceeoh
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Hi Ceeoh
As you might have gathered from the posts on this topic the Burnside name is proving very problematic. I believe the Ambrose & Isabella who were witness's to your great grandmother's wedding can be found in the 1871 census
Piece: 4967; Folio: 86; Page: 31. From that census this particular Ambrose gives his place of birth as Yorkshire.
The naming convention of the Burnside family would suggest that most of the Burnside family c 1750 to c 1850 in the Durham/Yorkshire area are related in some way. Making the connection is an entirely different matter. I am trying to build distinct family units via census returns and BT's, not an easy task. I don't expect to be finished anytime soon.
Gary
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Looking back at the 1861 and 1851 that particular Ambrose appears to be the son of Edward and Sarah Burnsides. Edw & Sarah (but not Ambrose) are in Guisborough in the 1851 census where Edward's place of birth is clearly given as "Yackley, Durham". http://www.archive.org/stream/glossaryofdialec00hopeuoft/glossaryofdialec00hopeuoft_djvu.txt This book of dialect pronunciations that are not said as spelt suggests that "Yackley" is actually Aycliff in Co. Durham. Interestingly, Edward and Sarah's oldest son in 1851 is called Benjamin - Colin, do you think this could be Edward son of Ambrose and Elizabeth Harrison??
Ermy
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Hello again - sorry to jump in on your topic again, but I see Ambrose in 1871 says he was born in Enterham Yorkshire (could that be Enterpen?) in 1861 he says Guisborough.
G grandma gives her place of birth as Guisborough until 1901 when it suddenly becomes Eggerven near York (no such place).
Any ideas what either of these could be the dialect pronunciation for please?
Many thanks
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Interestingly, Edward and Sarah's oldest son in 1851 is called Benjamin - Colin, do you think this could be Edward son of Ambrose and Elizabeth Harrison??
Ermy,
I am fairly sure that the Edward you refer to is not the one married to Sarah. He is my connection with the Burnside's and I wasn't sure I had the right parents for him. He married Elizabeth Swailes and I recently found that their son William married Elizabeth Swales, and in the 1851 he was living with the Swales family at Brompton on Swale but the way the they are recorded, it looks as though his wife was Mary Ann. I'm still trying to get my head round the last member of the family who was an 80 year old mother with surname Masfield, born Blackwell.
Padded-wall time :( :( :(
Colin
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Hi Colin
I have just spent the whole weekend trying to build the Burnsides into family units and it is next to impossible. No matter which way I turn they all seem to be related. I have managed to build a few distinct family units from Aycliffe, but as with anything Burnside it seems all roads lead to Rome, and Rome being the key word here. The romans built the biggest wall in Britain and the bloody Burnside family are hiding behind it. I have built a huge excel book, so big it confuse's even me. But on a more positive note I got so sick of trawling the BT's I set to transcribing them to save searching images (not kind on the eyes).
It seems my Joseph will remain a mystery :'(
Gary
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Hi ceeoh
I'am still trying to sort this Ambrose form the rest of them. It seems the Burnside clan roam freely, they should change their name to "have bags will travel".
Should I find out any more I will let you know.
Gary
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Hello Ceeoh,
Isabella and Ambrose you mention were hawkers, travelers,Isabellas maiden name was Gordon,
Regards Margaret
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Hi Gary,
The Romans also built a lot of roads and the Burnsides seemed to use them a lot ;)
Good luck with the transcribing, it's a mammoth undertaking.
If you, or anyone else, would like an outline descendant report on the way I see the families, could you PM your contact details.
Colin
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Hi Colin
Thanks for that. I will take you up on whatever research you have up to now it will save going over the same ground. I am away for a week as from tomorrow. The transcribing the BT's is not as bad as it may sound I have a voice program, In other words I speak and the computer does the rest, it is really quite fast.
I will PM you when I get home.
Gary
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Went into my local library to try the Ancestry Library Edition for the first time as I only have a basic membership and can't access the parish info etc (grrr!). A search for Ambrose Burnside(s) brought up a baptism for Elizabeth Burnside in Easingwold, Yorks on 18/7/1785. Her parents are given as Benjamin Burnside of Blackwell, potter, son of John Burnside of Auckland and Ann, daughter of Ambrose Burnside of Blackwell. Every little helps??
Ermy
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Well done Ermy that's a great find. It sounds as though it is one of the 'Dade' entries where baptisms had so much more detail. It's also interesting to note that Benjamin and Ann had a daughter Elizabeth baptised at St Cuthbert's Darlington on 28 May 1784. I have checked their burial records but didn't find an entry for this earlier one.
Colin
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Hi Ermy
Thanks for the info,as you say every little helps. I am still building a BURNSIDE/S/ profile.I have come across a few distinct family groups. This family seem to be so closely knit it is proving extremely difficult to sort the wheat from the chaff.
Gary
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Hi All
Came across this entry in the BT's.
Parlington, Darlington St Cuthberts 1762-1820 image 479.
Baptism of Robert Burnside on the 28th May 1815 illegitimate son of Violetta Burnsides single woman, daughter of Joseph Burnsides Bottom House, labourer. Try as I might i can not find a birth for this Violetta.
Also there is this entry for baptism for a Francis in the same BT image 478 with parents as Edward & Sarah. Edwards occupation is given as a sailor??, thats a new one on me a Burnside other than a farmer/tinker/potter?.
Francis died in 1818, source NBI, which is what led me to search for his birth.
The plot thickens.
Gary
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I don't like being beaten so I checked the BTs for Aycliffe and still found nothing for Joseph, but there was an interesting burial on 15 Feb 1824 for Elizabeth Burnside age 82 of Bottom House, Parish of Darlington. This is the neighbouring farm to Holly House where Joseph and Robert were from 1851.
Hi Gary,
Just a reminder of an earlier post. Have you checked Aycliffe for Violetta's baptism?
Colin
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Hi Colin
It was the earlier post re Bottom House that made this entry jump out at me. At least we know there was a Joseph and an Elizabeth that had lived there, wether they were husband and wife is another matter.
As you know the BT's for Aycliffe are missing a few years. I have trawled them up to 1820 no sign of a Violetta :(.
Gary
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Hi Gary,
I've also got a note of that entry for Robert's baptism in 1815 from the Darlington PRs but had read it as Joseph Burnsides being ROBERT'S father, not Violetta's?? I've also got a note from somewhere unspecified/unidentifiable of (yet another!) Ambrose Burnsides marrying a Violet Patterson at Whitley, Yorkshire in 1783 and some baptisms for the couple at Yarm - Edward 1790, Ambrose 1791 and William 1796. The Burnsides tree is a corkscrew willow, not a sturdy old oak!
Ermy
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Hi Ermy
I double checked the BT entry and it definitely has Violetta as the mother and Joseph as her father. I wonder if the BT is an error. Violet Patterson/Burnside appears to have died in 1799 in Yarm aged 36. Ambrose probably remarried. Interestingly the name Violet/Violetta only appears in the Burnside naming patterns after the marriage of Ambrose & Violet.
Gary
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Hi Ceeoh
After a bit digging around I think I found your Ambrose.
In the 1851 census Piece: 2384; Folio: 581; Page: 1.I believe he is Abraham? living with his sister Ann Gordon(nee Burnside) and her family . Interestingly Ambrose goes on to marry an Isabella Gordon, a sister to Ann's husband Alexander perhaps. Ann gives her birthplace as Sadberge. I checked the BT's for Sadberge and came across a few Burnsides and Anne is there (image 107) baptized 1822 Father Edward Mother Sarah. There is also a baptism for an Edward 1825 (image 122) to what appears to be the same parents. As yet I can not find a birth for Ambrose he does not show up in the IGI for Guisborough, perhaps he was born en-route there are a few other births for Edward & Sarah at Guisbourough. It would seem that Ambrose can be found in the 1861 census Piece: 3742; Folio: 5; Page: 4; living next door to his parents.
As foot note the other Burnside's I found in Sadberge are:
John (image 92) 1817 parents John & Jane. And Charity (image 99), Which appears to say Jane Rickaby spinster ( there is a marriage for a John Burnside to a Jane Rickaby in Hurworth on Tees 1805) A second opinion would be appreciated on this image.
Gary
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As foot note the other Burnside's I found in Sadberge are:
John (image 92) 1822 parents John & Jane. And Charity (image 99), Which appears to say Jane Rickaby spinster ( there is a marriage for a John Burnside to a Jane Rickaby in Hurworth on Tees 1805) A second opinion would be appreciated on this image.
Gary
Hi Gary,
It's a strange one :-\
Oct 13 1819, Charity daur of Jane Rickaby otherwise Burnside, Sadberge, Spinster
A note added to Jane says - The same whose son was baptised May 11th 1817
I doubt if a divorce would have taken place, and she wasn't a widow, so I can only think that they separated or the marriage was declared illegal ??? ???
Colin
EDIT - I forgot to say the earlier son was the John you mention in image 92 and it was 1817 not 1822
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Hi Colin
Thanks for the second opinion. I apologise for the wrong date, I must have BT blindness ;D.
It is a strange entry given that the earlier birth has John & Jane as parents to John.
It would seem John & Jane hitched the caravan up and headed for West Auckland, There is a death for John in 1824 aged 6 parents John & Jane, Potter. Could this be the John born 1817 in Sadberge?.
Also 2 births to what appears to be the same couple. Yet another Ambrose 1821 & Neddy in 1823.
And it looks like Jane died at West Auckland in 1824 aged 40.
Added: I forgot to include this marriage for an Edward & Sarah Waddington ( BT Staindrop 1814-1898 image 79 ) in Staindrop 1822. Any body want to claim them?
Gary
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Hi Gary,
Everything seems to fit for John & Jane being the same parents, but I've been pondering about that strange baptism entry for Charity, if they are the same family. Did they split up for a while but get back together? Was Charity fathered someone else? Then it suddenly dawned on me :o
Travellers are noted for their love and care of horses. Jane became jealous, accusing John of thinking more about his horse than her, and walked out on him. When Charity was born, she wasn't able to support them both so begged John to take her back. The couple were reunited but John never let her forget about her silly jealous nature, and the final taunt was to have his horse Neddy baptised in 1823. ::)
Simple really,
Colin
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Hi Colin
There is nothing simple about the Burnside/s clan. Any body who thinks that the Smith surname is hard to research needs to spend a week or two trying to sort the Burnside/s out. Had to laugh at Neddy bit ;D.
If anyone has any info on a Mark Burnside c 1826 I would appreciate knowing his parents.
Gary
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Do you have his marriage certificate?
Marriages Sep 1846
Burnside Mark Easingwold 24 349
Cunningham Mabel Easingwold 24 349
The couple are easy to find in the 1861 census but can't see Mark in 1851, although Mabel is with William and Elizabeth Burnsides in Kirby Moorside, Yorkshire and shown as a married niece. In 1841 Mark seems to be staying with a James and Mary Cunningham in Great Drifford, Yorks - maybe Mabel's parents/relations?? There's a Mark Burnsides, son of Edward and Elizabeth nee Bousfield baptised 1782 at St Cuthberts, Darlington - Edward is shown as potter of Blackwell at the baptism entry - so it's likely/probable Mark is a child of one of Edward's 11 children.
Ermy
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Hi Ermy
I'm not sure this Mark is related to my Joseph. I was trying to build family units and this Mark is yet another sticking point. I have a fancy he may have been in prison during the 1851 census, there are a few entries in the criminal registers. If the 1851 census is to be believed then Mark was a nephew to William b c 1801 in sunderland.
Speculation on my part but I think this William was born in 1807 in Houghton-Le-Spring (very close to sunderland)
and that his parents were John (b 1770 Auckland St Andrew) and Euphemia (Johns second wife) born c 1790 Richmond.
Gary
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hello Ermy and colin,
We have been over this ground in the past, and you both chose to ignore my case for the Ambrose cousins. Its nice to hear Colin say that he ASSUMED his theory was right about the 1841 census.Yes, it is nee Elizabeth Watson who`s three youngest girls all married in Darlington, as they had moved back from Shincliffe. One child is missing when Elizabeth 1808 (my 3xgt gran)is born in Shincliffe. Is it Edward 1803?How come there is such a huge gap in Ambroses1878 children nearly 20 years. My theory is that he went to Australia as a Redcoat.
lanelad(fred)
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Hello Fred
Welcome to Rootschat, and welcome to the padded cell that is Burnside. I as yet not found a birth for Edward c 1803.
Gary
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Hello
I'm chipping in from a different angle. Having read all this fascinating information, I feel it may well explain my problem. I have a Mary Smith b c 1831, who I feel could really be Mary Burnside dau of Edward and Sarah. She certainly has links with the Burnsides. She is untraceable before 1863 under the name Smith.
Please see
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,422660.0.html
I can see that this is going to be difficult! I'm interested in links to any other family names.
Incidentally, Fred, is that you, who i have been emailing?
Julie
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Hi Julie
Burnside & Smith sounds like a recipie for disaster ;D. Its getting late for me tonight but I will have a look at my records to see what I have. I know I have a birth for a Mary Burnside c 1831 in Guisborough.
Gary
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Hi Gary,
I must be mad as i keep getting involved with these Burnside forums etc. No. i havnt found Edward 1803, but had it from Colin ages ago.
I must read up on the old postings to get up to date.e.g. your William, yes born Newbottle, but can`t remember if he set up Pottery in Sdld. Will check.
By the way, have you got a Marrington in your Blake marriages.
Fred
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Hi Fred,
I think we must be all mad to try and unravel the Burnsides, or at least end up that way :D
I'm not sure what you mean by ignoring your advice about Ambrose cousins, I'm sorry if I've missed something.
Edward Burnsides, baptised at St Cuthbert's Darlington, born 9th Feb 1803, bapt 5th march 1803, 3rd son of Ambrose Burnsides, native of Blackwell, by his wife Elizabeth Hull native of Stays.
There are 2 possibilities for the father Ambrose, one born 1878, son of Edward and Elizabeth (Bousfield) and one born 1879, son of Benjamin and Ann (Burnside).
I am assuming this Edward is the one who moved to Aycliffe but have no great confidence as there are only 2 census details for his place of birth, one at Blackwell and the other at Bishop Auckland. I didn't find a baptism in any of the Auckland registers so it's the only possibility.
Colin
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Hi Ceeoh via Gary,
Ambrose 1829 was bap Deighton by Northallerton IGI Batch
5july. Maybe they tried to hide it, as he was scribed as Amorous!!!!
Thanks for his whereabouts 51. I have Edward son of Edward/Sarah Aycliffe
Potter7dec1824. (died infant?)
I wondered why no ann, as i have Edward 1793 as son of Benjamin and Ann.
Thanks for that
Fred
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Hi Fred
I see the Burnside/s are now spanning 3 different boards now. Typical Burnside trait, not being content to stop in one place. My Blake family c 1855 are few and far between but jut as untraceable. I have absolutely nothing on my Great Grandfather Richard Blake's linage other than he gives his birth as Scotland and on his marriage certificate he gives his father as Edward (deceased Master Mariner). Richard married Margaret Scott. No sign of a Marrington.
Gary
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These Burnsides are a fascinating bunch. I hope I am related to them!
Does anyone have any photos?
Julie
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Hi Julie
Are you sure you would like to be related to the Burnside/s clan ;D.
I have only seen one supposed photograph, and that is for Jonas b c 1825. It is attached to a tree on ancestry, so read into that what you will :-\
On the subject of Jonas the one thing I know for certain is that his parents were Edward & Sarah, but which Edward & Sarah? My little excel book shows;
Edward baptised 7th Dec 1824 Aycliffe parents Edward & Sarah. died as an infant?? I have not found this as yet.
Edward baptised 24th July 1825 Sadberge parents Edward & Sarah. I believe this is the Edward that died in 1847
Jonas baptised 10th Dec 1825 Aycliffe parents Edward & Sarah. The places of baptisms and dates of Edward & Jonas raises a few questions.
Gary
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Hi Gary
Thanks. I have had a look at the photo. He looks a smart man, but I don't recognise him!
Interestingly, he appears on various trees with differing parents and some claim death in USA.
I also looked for public member trees for Mary Burnside. There are several others, but 'mine' only features once, with no descendants and no trace after 1851. So either she died, or she used another name with no recorded marriage under Burnside. All the circumstantial evidence leads me to believe she was aka Bradley and Smith, before marrying Charles Grout, but I just can't prove it.
Thanks for the Jonas information. I need to get a pen and paper and try and get my head around who's who.
Incidentally, have you ever come across the name Wingrove or Wingrave in your searches? Mary's son, Joseph Smith gives this only on his marriage certificate as his middle name. At marriage he gave his father as Joseph Wingrove Smith. He was married in Guisborough and the witnesses were not known family members. I can't find any suitable Wingrove or Wingrove Smiths. He does not use the name in census records and I haven't found a birth registration or baptism for him, or for Joseph Bradley, b Guisborough, same age son of Mary Bradley, next door to John Burnside.
You'll be as batty as me soon!
Julie
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Hi Julie
As Batty as you?? I am on my third straight jacket ;D.
I have looked at all the trees on Ancestry and the one that seems to be closest to being right is the one with the photograph of Jonas. They at least have his father right and mother as unknown. My policy with trees on Ancestry is always to take them with a pinch of salt. You know the rules of this game, check, double check and when you think you have got it right check again and then get a second opinion ;D.
I shall continue to hunt for Burnsides and should I find any sign of your Mary under any guise I wil let you know ;D
As yet no sign of Wingrove/Wingrave but the name is etched in my mind ;D ;D ;D
Gary
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Hi All
Gary!if all those trees are wrong, then that must be because yours is right. I could sit with a Burnside or anyone else and take first hand info from them with no promise of it being correct.
Due to the new info on that tree, i have Ann1822 down toSadberge, then Edward up to Aycliffe, back down to Sadberge for another Edward, then up to Aycliffe for Jonas. Havnt you realised this was the early family planning, forerunner of the rhythm method.
So you both need pictures to go with the words( reminds me of the Beano)
if i gave you one, would you believe it was a Burnside, you would only have my word, same as i would put into a tree.
Fred
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Hi Fred
Strangely my tree is correct up to the Joseph Burnside that I started this thread with. I have been unable to find his parents. So I suppose I have done, as many before me have done and try to build family units in the hope something turns up. As yet I have only found one Jonas and his parents were Edward & Sarah and not William & Elizabeth as many of the trees I have come across have. Of course there could well be a Jonas born to William & Elizabeth but there is not a reference to the source. No source no entry into the main tree is my way of doing it.
I do have lots of little side trees that are mainly for reference.
Post modified due to incorrect info.
Gary
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Hi all
I came across this entry in the BT's for Dalton-Le-Dale (indexed as Calton-Le-Dale) for the baptism of Hannah Burnside illegitimate daughter of Vina Burnside of Alm Tree House Darlington in 1806. Just wondered if anyone had anymore on this Vina, I suspect its Lavina but which one I have nothing on Lavina as yet.
Added: Forgot to give the image number 77
Gary
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Hi Gary,
I suspect Alm Tree House will turn out to be Elmtree House which is on Honeypot Lane, and probably by coincidence is very near to the Honeypot Camp Site for travelling families. Honeypot lane, also known as the Black Path, runs across to West Auckland Road in the Faverdale area of Darlington, and near to Bottom House and Holly House.
Hope this helps,
Colin
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Hi Colin
Thanks for the info on Elmtree House it certainly helps give an idea of the area. I did notice a Burnside clan as farmers at Brankin Moor not to far from Faverdale.
Gary
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Hi Gary,
They are geographical opposites in terms of the town! Faverdale to the North West and Brankin Moor to the South.
Colin
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Hi Colin
I suppose I should have said not to far for a Burnside ;D ;D ;D.
Interestingly the Brankin Moor Burnside's seem to be related to the Brafferton branch, still working on that one.
Gary
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Another inconclusive snippet to add: The Vina from Dalton le Dale could well be my Lavina Burnside, as I stated earlier one of the Lavinias married George Cowley in Darlington (I say one of! It's certainly annoying the recurrence of names and the census is no help as the 1851 and 1861 give a difference in age of 5 years, it does always say Cockerton not Blackhall however, though whether that's any help is debatable) anyway, George Cowley was from the village of Hawthorn a stone's throw from Dalton Le Dale which may be a link here. She is also named Vina on one of the census documents and the name reoccurs down the Cowley line always as Vina/Vinah/Vinia never Lavinia.
Hey ho, Merry Christmas everyone :)
Dan
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Hi Dan
I feel I could be saying Hi Ho Merry Xmas this time next year and still not being any further in my quest.
Gary
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Hello all. I am posting here, not with solutions to any questions but to raise some more questions about my Ambrose Burnside.
In April 1798 he enlisted in the Durham militia.
In July 1799 he transferred to the 82nd, The regimental book shows him as, trade potter, County Durham, Parish “Blaknam”?, aged 17 so born around 1782.
He left England in 1809 with the 73rd, presumably with wife Sarah? and daughter Elizabeth
His Death cert in 1827 in Australia shows him as 66 and so born in 1761. I would have thought the enlistment age more reliable – but we don't know. It seems the questions about the Burnsides never end.
Some of my AB’s children certainly match the pattern of names. His children were Sarah, Ann, Benjamin, Elizabeth, John as well as Mary and Charlotte.
Any thoughts/ speculation etc would be welcome.
Janet
P.s. I have had exchanged Emails some time ago with Colin and Fred
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Hi Janet
Welcome to RootsChat. The age difference is confusing. I have an Ambrose b 1779 to Benjamin, potter of Blackwell.
I have not found an Ambrose born even close to 1761, that is not to say there isn't one.
And I have not found a marriage for an Ambrose & Sarah?. Do you have a birth for Elizabeth?
Gary
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Hi Janet,
There was an Ambrose baptised at St Cuthbert's Darlington on 27th June 1762, son of Ambrose of Blackwell, Potter.
Possible siblings - Ann 1755, Catherine1757, Elizabeth 1760, Margaret 1765, Isabella 1768 and Catharine 1770.
Unfortunately I have nothing further on any of these.
If the regimental book has his birthplace wrong it's possible that they have his age wrong, or a very unclear 37.
Hope this helps,
Colin
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Hi Colin
There is a burial via the NBI for a Ambrose in St Edmund the Bishop Sedgefield in 1843 aged 80 that would give a birth date c 1763?? Could this be the Ambrose b in Blackwell 1761.
Gary
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Hi Janet, and welcome to the Burnside tangle!
I have that Ambrose (bap 1762) and siblings down as children of Ambrose Burnsides and Isabella Portous. I THINK I am descended from that Ambrose (bap 1762) 's brother Edward but nothing is certain! Edward is a very common Burnsides name but Benjamin less so, so interesting that your Ambrose has a Benjamin amongst his children (but not an Edward) which may give a clue to his line. Ambrose is a family name that seems to be passed down by the descendants of Ambrose and Isabella Burnsides from the Darlington/Shincliffe areas as well as via descendants of Benjamin and Ann Burnsides from Auckland/roundabouts. Just to make things (even) more complicated Benjamin's wife, Ann, was also a Burnside, the sister of that Ambrose (bap 1762) !
Ermy
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There is a burial via the NBI for a Ambrose in St Edmund the Bishop Sedgefield in 1843 aged 80 that would give a birth date c 1763?? Could this be the Ambrose b in Blackwell 1761.
Eeny, meany, miney, mo...... ??? ??? ;)
It appears that this Ambrose moved from Blackwell, because of the lack of burials in Darlington, so I suppose he could be a good candidate for Sedgefield.
Regards,
Colin
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Thanks very much for the responses.
In reply to Gary's post, we don't know Elizabeth's date of birth (or death) but we know she married (very unhappily - but that's another saga) in 1821. Ambroseis described as her father at Elizabeth's husband's bigamy trial.
We presume the info for AB's DC was given by his wife Sarah. There is also a lot of inconsistent info about her age - we don't think her information can be relied on - she had a drinking problem and after AB's death, placed their daughter Ann into an orphanage. (Ann later commited highway robbery but that's another saga).
We speculated that Sarah might have been a second wife and not the mother of Elizabeth because there is probably a 8-10 year gap between children.
In reply to Colin's post, the age of 17 is quite clear on the regimental paper. Its very different to the 3's written nearby in what appears the same handwriting.
Not having seen the original of the DC, we speculated that the age might have actually been a 4 written in one stroke with on open top- not a point that could be misintrepreted as a 6 but that doesn't help because all the younger ABs appeared to be accounted for.
Janet
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Hi Janet,
That's an interesting post. It's crossed my mind quite often that some of the Burnsides might be leading double lives. How often have we seen that an Ambrose born XXXX with wife Elizabeth , and then an Ambrose born about the same time with a different wife and family.
Then it's up to us to try and piece it all together, and there's not enough of them to go round, especially when a birthplace is given and there's only one candidate .
Perhaps a different train of thought might be needed ??? ???
Colin
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Found two stray Burnside records though people might have them already,
Both in the Denton records for Gainford Darlington (in the BTs), George Cowley and Lavinia Burnside (who I mentioned in earlier posts) turn up there in Nov 1824 living in Walworth and seem to stay there, after which there were the following two baptism records:
Oct 16th 1825 Joseph illegitimate son of Hannah Burnsides of Walworth, Single Woman.
Aug 14th 1836 William son of William Burnsides and Mary Goldsborough, of Walworth, labourer.
That's all I could see in terms of records, they seem to flit in and then out again. Might help somebody, probably just add more befuddlement though,
Dan :)
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Oct 16th 1825 Joseph illegitimate son of Hannah Burnsides of Walworth, Single Woman.
Dan :)
Hi Dan
Thanks for that information. It has set the my mind racing. I wondered if this Hannah was the one that was born to Vina in Dalton le Dale in 1806. It certainly seems a possibility given that Lavina/Vina & George are close by in 1824. There is a marriage for Hannah Burnside & Michael Rowe in Gainford in 1830. I have a gut feeling that this is the Joseph I seek.
Gary
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I thought this about Hannah too but hadn't checked her age, have now and you're right this is presumably Vina/Lavinia's daughter. There was also a Mary Burnside who lived as an agricultural labourer in Denton and was the toll house keeper for Gainford, in one census she had a daughter with her called Jane and a granddaughter called Sarah Burnside, I write down once that she might be Lavinia's mother but I've not verified that yet. If you do turn out to be descended from Lavinia, Hannah etc it's worth knowing that Oak Tree Cottage the house where they lived near Walworth Gate is still there.
Dan :)
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Hi Dan
Thanks for the info on Oak Tree. The Mary you mention is proving problematic, unusual for a Burnside to be problematic ;D. I have found her as a widow on one census and as unmarried on another?? In an earlier post you mention Joseph of Oak Tree house as Lavina's father do you know if that is in the BT's?
Gary
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Yes, I found Joseph in the BTs for Saint Cuthbert's Church Darlington- 14th Aug 1785- might have been in Cockerton if the option is available, on census she is always described as from Cockerton rather than the alternative Blackwell Lavinia. The father is a 'Joseph' described as a farmer's hind and residence of Oak Tree House which I don't think is quite near enough to be the same farm near Walworth Gate where Lavinia ends up. I found this just on a whim though not in any carefully organised way so I can't say I've found any other records relating to Joseph yet, it's always on my next thing to do list- I'm normally very thorough but have only really tackled the Burnsides here and there more out of curiousity. Hope this helps,
Dan :)
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P.S. If possible, could you let me know if you ever find Hannah Burnside/Michael Rowe/Joseph Burnside on any census as I seem to have failed miserably there...
Cheers,
Dan :)
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Hi Dan
To answer your PS first, no I can not find Hannah or Michael Rowe in any English census, not tried the Scotland census yet. I have checked both Gainford BTs (up to 1841) for a birth or death of any one with the surname Rowe and found nothing. I also checked for a death for Joseph and got the same result. The 1841 census has 2 Joseph's one b c 1826 Durham and the other b c 1828 Yorkshire.
The 1851 census is the first census that I know for sure my Joseph appears. He is living with his first wife & child in his uncle (great uncle) Roberts home. Robert was born c 1779 in Brafferton to Joseph, this Joseph I believe is the father of Lavina b 1785 in Darlington. If I am right with that assumption then Hannah would be Roberts niece and her Joseph would be his great nephew. I know it is dangerous to assume anything in this game but this as close as I have come to finding my Josephs linage. Incedently the 1828 Yorkshire Joseph is also a great nephew to Robert. Any thoughts welcome
Gary
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I also ploughed through the Gainford BTs with no joy. Your reasoning seems sound as a working theory, be nice to have a common parent for Joseph and Robert though, or do you have that? Annoying that they are just 10 years shy of certification, a handy certificate might clear a lot up or muddy the waters some more.
I have a Joseph Burnside on an 1841 census of the right age working at a farm in Mainsforth north of Brafferton, also working at the farm is a Robert Burnside aged 60 but based on the 1841 rounding up this could be a bit different, is this your Joseph and great uncle Robert?
Dan
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Hi Dan
The Joseph on the 1841 census at Mainsforth is I believe my Joseph, However the Robert on the same census is not his uncle, I am not sure who this Robert is. Josephs uncle can also be found on the 1841 census however he is at cockerton with his sister Isabella West. She does not show in the index on a Ancestry search but the actual image confirms this. Isabella married Thomas West in 1795 in Gainsborough, Lincolnshire. I know Roberts father was Joseph but I have been able to find a mother for him or any of the other siblings, I suspect she will be Elizabeth but as yet I have not found a marriage for them. For the moment I am happy to run with Hannah as being my Josephs mother. Interestingly I have only found one birth of a Hannah Burnside anywhere close enough to be Josephs mother and that is the one born to Lavina in Dalton.
Gary
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As to Hannah, I had a thought and it's not a Rowe she marries but Howe!
Hannah and Michael are on the census together for 1841, 1851, 1861 also and it nicely ties a few things together by giving her place of birth as Dalton le Dale 1806 which I think confirms she belongs to the Lavinia/Lovehannah/Vina etc from there who is surely the one who marries George Cowley. Hannah goes off to West Auckland which is where Michael is from. I can't find them in 1871.
Dan :)
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Howe could well be right there are a few of them in the Gainford BTs, it is strange that the BT entry is ever so clearly Rowe? Obviously even the Bishops copying servant was capable of mistakes, or did the curate of the wedding ceremony write it down incorrectly. I suppose we will never know.
Gary
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Dan
Looking at the 41/51 & 61 census I would say that this is Hannah & Michael no sign of a Joseph mind you. Looks like he was pawned off with relatives in order to make for a happy marriage. Perhaps Michael did not know about Joseph?.
Gary
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Yes it does say Rowe on the BT, I only thought because a Cowley later marries a Howe and I noticed the prevalence of them in Gainford and Denton. I've had problems with mistranscribed BTs before and on other occasions they've missed out a year, a lovely resource, but annoying at times. Trust it to be this line with all it's inherent problems, the Cowleys were easy to track except for the original George and Lovehannah who were a right pain until I found them in Denton. I still can't find the deaths of either to this day.
As to Joseph, he would be old enough to have moved on for work by 1841, he may have always lived with his Burnside relations though, perhaps sent to work for them? I find it odd that neither he nor his mum took on the name Cowley for appearances, nor did he take Howe. There's another odd child related thing with George and Lavinia Cowley in that their son George's first son John always lives with them on census, not his own parents and never migrates over to Billingham like the rest of his siblings. He eventually has a daughter called Lavinia the only time the original name is used for a child rather than Vina,Vinah, Vienna, Vianer etc. Very odd and not something I've seen before. George incidentally would be the same age roughly as Joseph despite perhaps being his half uncle. I'm sure there must be other children for George and Lavinia but I haven't found them yet. I can't read the Denton BT baptism for George but it is saying something about a certificate and Croxdale, perhaps they moved to Walworth from there.
Dan
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As you say the BTs can prove frustrating however I am still happy to run with the Joseph you found in Denton. It never ceases to amaze me of the amount of skeletons that fall from the family cupboard. I don't think appearance's mattered a great deal to the Burnside clan I think they had a like it or lump it attitude. I suppose now I would need to look for Lavina's mother, there are only two marriages for a Joseph Burnside on the IGI and one I know is for Roberts brothers second marriage, to Ann Gurdinson in 1828 in Stanwick, The other is actually transcribed as Joseph Barnside to Sarah Milles, at Wath Juxta Ripon, I think this the son of the first Joseph, but I have not been able to prove it. Still I shall continue to fight the good fight ;D.
Gary
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Denton BTs:
William son of Michael Howe and Hannah Greenside of Bolam, father's occupation- labourer Dec 9th 1832 P.167 Denton BTs
Greenside, now there's a new one... That's the only one I found when I checked back through but I was a little the worse for wear.
Dan
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You have to wonder if that is the bishops transcriber's best shot at the original Parish record? or had Hannah been married before. I suppose the only way to know for sure would be to see the parish records. I must take the time to check some of these.
Image is on page 157 ;D
Gary
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Hi Dan and Gary,
I was at teh library and managed to check the actual Parish Register films. I'm sure the Burnside clan go out of their way to be different.
Denton Baptisms.
p27 entry 211, Nov 29th 1824, George son of George Cowley & Dinah Burnside, Walworth Gate, Labourer, As per certificate from the Revd. John Harriman Curate of Croxdale
p30 entry 233, Oct 16th 1825, Joseph son of Hannah Burnsides, Walworth, single woman, J Birkbeck Assist Curate
p51 entry407, Dec 9th 1832, William son of Michael Howe & Hannah Grenside, Bolam, Labourer, Thos. Peacock Curate
p61 entry 486, Aug 14th 1836, William son of Robert Burnsides & Mary Goldsbrough, Walworth, Labourer, Thos. Peacock Acting for the Curate
Gainford
Banns - p73 entry 145, Michael Howe of this Parish & Hannah Burnside of the Parish of Darlington, April 18th, 25th, May 2nd
Marriage - P85 entry 255, Michael Howe of this Parish & Hannah Burnside of the Parish of Darlington were married.... by Banns, this fifteenth day of May 1830, by me John Birkbeck Sub Curate of Denton
signed. Michael Howe X his mark, Hannah Burnside X her mark
Witnessed, Jane Thornton, Henry Lamb (both signed)
Colin
[Edit] Banns for St Cuthbert's are missing for 1820 - 1847
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Hi Colin
Thanks for the trip to the library. Its nice to be able to cross reference parish records with the BTs.
I am still happy to run with the 1825 Gainford Joseph via Hannah. Maybe its wishful thinking on my part but Gainford is close enough to Cockerton as to confuse any Burnside, given that young Joseph would have only 6 years old when his mother married Michael Howe. It looks like Joseph was farmed out to Great uncle Robert in order to make for a happy marriage. :o
Gary
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Hi,
Yes thank you very much for the actual records, I often worry about the BTs, is this Darlington library? I had no idea I could see the actual records there. I found it difficult to read the George Cowley reference, what is this Croxdale certificate business? I've never seen that before, does it mean he was baptised at Croxdale and if so why is it entered in the Denton register at all? Has anyone seen this before?
I also think the Gainford Joseph is right and the Houghton le Spring Hannah.
On a different note, by chance I found myself driving through Gainford last week, what a lovely little time capsule it is. On an annoying note I was wrong about Oak Tree Cottage in Walworth Gate, everything is there except the house itself which looking at it has to be a much more modern building. George Cowley's min 19th century home -Cabin House near Piercebridge was thankfully intact at least. It was nice to drive through these places after following this thread.
Regards,
Dan
P.S. sorry for getting the BT number wrong, Maths is not my strong point.
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Hi Dan
Re a baptism being in 2 places. I have come across it before and with a Burnside. Benjamin Burnside b1810 in Seamer Yorkshire (form IGI) and from the BTs for Hurworth on Tees (image 49) the same Benjamin Burnside baptised Feb 1811. Born to John & Jane Burnside (nee Rickaby).
Gary
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Dan Darlington Local Studies Library hold various filmed parish registers (mainly Darlington area), census, maps, newspaper, etc.
Here's a link to their site
http://www.darlington.gov.uk/Education/Library/Centre+for+Local+Studies/localstudies.htm
Cheers
Jay
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Gary, sorry to contradict but Joseph was not of Gainford, nor was Hannah. When Joseph was baptised they were at Walworth and when Hannah was married she was Parish of Darlington, so probably no further than 3 miles from the Cockerton (Faverdale) farm. It's a fair bet to assume he is your Joseph as it all fits together very nicely.
Joseph could have been born and baptised at Croxdale, and the baptism noted at Denton which was Hannah's normal Parish of residence. Possibly a consequence of the Poor Laws should she be in need of Parish relief, but that's just conjecture on my part.
If these Burnsides are true travellers, I would be very wary of assuming that Benjamin was baptised twice, it could be a similar situation to Joseph. They might not be too bothered about bending civil laws, but when it comes to religion then that is a completely different scenario as most families are highly religious.
Dan, if you ever get the chance to call in at Darlington, you'll be surprised at what is available there. Jay's link gives a good idea (thanks Jay) but there is so much more that isn't listed. For instance there is a published alphabetical index of Gainford Registers which I was going to check on, but I ran out of time.
Colin
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I agree Colin there's so much more there then the website lists tell you. I've been working most weekends lately so not been thru for a quite, but was getting there most Saturdays & think I must of looked in most years of The Echo now checking obits!
Is there any references to any Burnside's in the card indexes, i've managed to pick up a few bits & pieces on some of my rellies via those that I wouldn't of normally.
Incidentally i've got a Burnside in my tree, tho he married one of mine so haven't done any research (Thomas Henry Burnside born June 1892 Auckland).
Jay
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Hi Colin,
I am not often 100% convinced with the IGI & the BTs but in the case of Benjamin they would appear to confirm a christening in both Seamer, 16th September 1810 to John & Jane, then the BT entry for Hurworth (indexed as Harworth) image 49, for Benjamin born in Seamer september 4th 1810 baptised at Harworth Feb? 1811 to John Burndside, Brazier, native of Darlington by his wife Jane Rickaby native of Hurworth. A second opinion is always welcome.
Edit: I should have mentioned the Seamer IGI entry is extracted. It would be nice to see if the original offered any more information.
Gary
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Hi All,
Firstly, i was impressed by all concerned in the search for info on Joseph etc. but now you have touched on double recordings. on Baps.
This has bothered me since i found on IGI one of my Merringtons MARRIED in Billingham and Durham Cathedral, same date. I later thought that maybe there were similar recs for baps, but in this case where the date is different is it caused by private baps, followed by a public one. I have just had a quick look on Google typing in "Private baptisms"and finished up on a British Genealogy thread "what is a Private Baptism" and its very interesting.
Fred
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Yes I've had a few private baptisms on various lines- usually when the child was sick/disabled and so they were baptised at home, often the baptisms are marked in the original register as 'P' or * or 'Private' to indicate this, I've not had any twice but can see why they might be. Thanks also for the logical answer to my certificate question. Regarding IGI, I once spoke to a Latter Day Saints researcher and she said a surprisingly large percentage of IGI records are guesses rather than actual records- if they have a batch number at the bottom they are accurate, if they don't they could well be a guess- this was to explain a marriage I had for which the IGI had three different records for the same people with different years given and different places married at, turned out two were guesses based on later baptism records, only one had a proper batch number at the bottom.
Thanks for the info on Darlington resources, I have a very busy job and a very young family so travelling to Durham Archives is difficult for me especially with it being closed Friday, Saturday and Sunday, but I live in Stockton and Darlington should be easier, it sounds very useful.
Dan
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Hi All
I was going to mark this thread as complete. However given the amount of interest in the Burnside/s it seems to have generated I feel I must leave it open. I would like to thank everyone who has posted ;D.
I have found a marriage for a Joseph Burnsides to Elizabeth Close at Aycliffe, on 19th February 1765, this comes from the George Bell collection. I have searched the BTs for this marriage but I cannot find it as yet. I have long been convinced that an Elizabeth was wife to Joseph, and mother to the Brafferton branch of the Burnside/s clan.
The parish records for this marriage may well yield information, so if some kind person has access to these records then any info that is available from them will be gratefully received.
Gary
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Gary, Aycliffe records are held by Darlington library and I'll check the marriage next week unless Dan beats me to it ;) Seamer records are not at Darlington (wrong County) but I think they are at Middlesbrough Archives and at Northallerton CRO.
Fred, nice to hear from you again. I was having a re-think about the double baptism and also thought a private baptism was more likely, but the second entry would usually be their acceptance into the Church, rather than another baptism. Perhaps Hannah was visiting when she unexpectedly gave birth to Joseph and the local vicar of Croxdale was called to perform a private baptism as soon as he was born and gave them a Baptism Certificate. For your double marriage, I wouldn't mind betting that they were married by Licence. I've come across a few like this, where they were married outside of their normal Parish(es) but the marriage was also entered in the Parish Registers. I have a theory that the marriage was anounced in the local Church to let Parisioners know, because of the absence of Banns publications, and the details then entered in the Register. This is supported by one of the entries having the words 'were married in this Church' crossed through.
Colin
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Thanks Colin any help in the Joseph & Elizabeth marriage will be most welcome. The Seamer baptism is not a top priority for me, it just happend to make it into my ever burgeonding excel document.
Gary
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Hi All,
Sorry Colin but i have got in first! but it was your info in the first place!!!The marriage anyway.Joseph Burnside= Elizabeth Close, at Aycliffe 19feb1765.
Joseph bp. St Andrews B/A 10apr1745. I have him born Aycliffe.
Elizabeth b. Aycliffe bp Aycliffe 18sep1742.
Fred
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Hi Fred,
Thanks for the marriage. My not so little excel book only has the one entry, and unfortunately its an extracted from the IGI, for Joseph baptised 10th April 1745 at Auckland, St Andrew to John Burnside.
Gary
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Hi Gary
Yes please leave it open. I am lurking on the fringes of Burnsides, having a very strong suspicion that my Mary/ Mary Ann Smith / Bradley?/Grout was Mary Burnside b 1831-4 Guisborough, but being unable to prove it. This post has enabled me to build up a picture of how this family operate and the difficulties encountered with establishing facts, names etc. I may never prove my point, but what I have read strengthens my conviction
Thanks to everyone.
Julie
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Hi All,
Had to go, B- - - Phone again ! Colin, you were likely right about Hannah (what has she to do with Houghton le spring) i am just trawling it for
John Burnsides b.1770 B/A descendants, including the inventor and the Pottery owner.
Yes you win ! the Merrington marriage was by license. Good theory too!!.
We had a difference of opinion on the dreaded subject of the two Ambroses1778 and1779 as far as the 1841 census was concerned. Lately you inferred that i was right. Well thats gone, and its all good for the sake of helping to get things right.
What i want to do now is for us to try and sort these two out. I have racked my brain to find a solution, as the problem stands
Ambrose b Blackwell 1778 plus Ambrose b Blackwell 1779 Plus Ambrose b Blackwell joined the Durham Militia b circa 1780
HEY THATS THREE !!
Is there anyone else game, or do you want the rest of the details first.
Fred
P.S you as well Julia
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Hi Julie,
I am pleased you have kept tabs on this thread, who knows what can, or will be, discovered about the Burnside/s clan. I for one will keep on searching, and building the Burnside/s family.
PS if anyone would like a copy of the excel document I have, which has IGI batch nos and BTs details wherever I have found them, then PM me I will gladly let you have a copy. I must warn you this is not for a single family but for every Burnside/s I have found information for in the north east c 1663 to c 1886, and is by no means complete.
Gary
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Hi Fred
Yes please. Can you recap the Ambrose details?
Thanks
Julie
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Hi Julie, if you are looking in the Guisbrough area for Mary's baptism, you could try Kirby Moorside. A lot of Burnsides seem to come and go from there.
Fred, why should we have had a difference when they all fit together like a jig-saw ;)
Whichever Ambrose it was that married the widow, seems to drop from sight after the baptism of their son in 1803 so your reference to the Durham Militia might be relevant here.
Colin
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Hi Colin
Thanks for the tip. Hovingham (or Ovingham) features several times among Mary's contacts. I have checked it's parish registers with no joy, but Kirbymoorside will be worth trying.
Julie
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Actually, Just remembered. There is baptism for Mary Burnside at Guisborough 12th Oct 1831
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Hi Julie, I vaguely remember your problem with Mary. Do you happen to have her in the 1841 census?
The reason I ask is that there is a 10 year old Mary Smith in Aycliffe, shown as separate from the rest of the household. Just a few doors away is a Burnside household, who had a couple of Swales as neighbours (Potters!!). I think the Swales also have a link to Kirbymoorside.
Colin
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Mary Burnside bp12oct1831 guisbro
Fred
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Hi Stroudie
Just a thought - all roads seem to lead to "our" Mary having been a Burnside - however - she was obviously still in contact with the Burnsides at the time she married - witnesses at her marriage to Charles - so why on earth would she give her father's name as John Smith, ag lab, (it doesn't say deceased).
She gives her name as Mary Smith, single, father John Smith, Ag Lab.
Joseph Smith (son) c1856/7 we don't know, illegitimate or not?
Charles Grout must have thought she was single with an illegitimate son.
Charles Groat (1st son to Charles Grout) is baptised to Mary Smith a single woman.
The next two (John and George Henry) are baptised to Charles and Mary Grout (although they were actually illegitimate, born prior to Charles and Mary's marriage in 1869)
Can anyone come up with a "explanation" why she would have portrayed herself as a single woman with an illegitimate son if she had a family (the Burnsides)?
Ceeoh
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Ceeoh - Yes, it defies all logic, but then it seems the way the Burnsides conduct their affairs often does! Mary Smith is not traceable with the details given, Mary Burnside disappears without any evident marriage or death, Mary Bradley with son Joseph makes a brief appearance with no collaborative marriage or registration/ baptism for Joseph. I know it's all circumstantial. Mary Smith/ Grout has some link with the Burnsides as she goes briefly to New Durham and they witness her marriage and she returns to Guisborough. There are more questions than answers! Why did she have 3 children with Charles Grout before marrying him? Why marry him anyway by that point?
Colin - Yes I did note the Mary Smith in Aycliffe in 1841. This is interesting as Mary Burnside and family are not found in 1841. This Mary would be the right age, but there is nothing to suggest her parentage. In 1851 Mary Burnside is in Guisborough with her parents Edward b Yackley (I believe this is Aycliffe) c 1801 and Sarah b Bradford c 1804 and siblings. Edward is a licensed hawker
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I second Colin as the Ambrose married to Elizabeth Watson is mine. I've leant towards 'my' Ambrose being the son of Edward Burnside and Elizabeth Bousfield due to the similarity of names in both families but any proof either way would be very welcome.
Ermy
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Ermitrude46
I can only assume you are referring to my letter25feb. Strangely, it was with Colin. that i decided on the other Ambrose b.1779, but at the time i said to you that it was very marginal and that it didnt mean that yours was wrong.
I have come to the conclusion that there was never another Ambrose married and living in Darlington area, and that Edwards son Ambrose was the one who married Elizabeth Harrison( who may have died with son in childbirth Edward feb1803) Argument then who was Edward d.1879Aycliffe!!!
Ambrose then went on to marry Elizabeth Watson,and had among others, Eliz1804,Jane1806 then Eliz2 in1808(who was noted as the 4th child)!((Edward1803?))
At this point i would like to clarify to anyone not invoved directly in this debate that the original problem was that we had two Ambroses, so
Ambrose b1778 Blackwell- Potter- son of Edward
Ambrose b1779 Blackwell -Potter- son of Benjamin
one marries Elizabeth Harrison 1802 Darlington
one marries Elizabeth Watson 1803 Auckland(dosent it just get easier)!!!!
Then i became in contact with Janet, who must have thought we needed
more of a challenge and gave me this:-
It seems that an Ambrose joined the Durham Militia in April1798 (information Janet-Australia) In July1799 he`s transferred to 82nd Foot. Regiment book shows Trade Potter-from co.Durham- parish Blacknam?(unclear)Blackwell???
age17[1782]
I doubt if this is a third Ambrose, so then he would have to be one of the other two, and i have picked Ambrose1779.
Sorry! The writing pad keeps disappearing after every letter is typed. I shall return
Fred
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Hi
Part2. The reason is for the same logic as Ermies "similar family names".
Carrying on, a Death cert in 1827 shows Ambrose in Oz age 66y born [1761] As Janet says "the enlistment age would have been more realible than this, as why would a 36y claim to be 17, or get away with it. His wife Sarah was supposed to be 42y in 1828
Ambrose in Oz had ch.Sarah,Ann,Benjamin,Elizabeth, John. as well as Mary and Caroline.
Note:- Janet would like to find the marriage of Ambrose to Sarah c1799-1806
any ideas? There are a lot more details, but too many to list in one go(or2 as it turned out.
Fred
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Hi Fred,
Thanks for that, must admit it had not occurred to me that both Ambrose marriages were for one Ambrose, I'd just assumed that each AB had married once but your alternative does sound plausible! Could the Edward that died in 1879 be the son of Ambrose and Elizabeth (Watson) born in 1813 (which would presumably mean that Colin was descended from this Edward, rather than Edward born 1803??) So the AB that joined the militia ended up in Australia? Do you know when that was and whether all the relevant records at Kew have been seen? I've already got a little list of people I need to follow up at Kew that I could easily add AB to. Of course, there WAS another Ambrose, baptised 1762 at Darlington and the brother of Edward (my AB's father, these two seem to have been the only males, tho' there were six sisters too), do you know what happened to him??
Ermy
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Hi All
I just wondered if anyone had ruled out the Ambrose who would have been a widower in 1799 from being one of the Ambrose marriages? There was an Ambrose who was married to Violet Patterson in Whitby 1783. She appears to have died in 1799 in Yarm. Interestingly there is a birth for a Violet Burnside 1806 in Yarm to Ambrose & Elizabeth? Violet and its variations seem to have made into the Burnside naming patterns after the death Violet Burnside (nee Patterson).
Gary
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Hi All.
Before i could answer you Ermy, Gary has come in with the same comment on the 1783 Ambrose. Yes to you both, 1783 would have fitted in with the Oz DC.
I invited Janet to come on the thread, in her reply she says she is having trouble with the Oz Burnsides (surprise)
A quick summary of Ambrose Oz. Arrived in NSW 1810 on the "Ann" with a small detachment of the 73rd regiment guarding convicts.Died Cambelltown 1827
Note The 82nd regiment book WO225/489 f018:
I found 82nd Foot (Prince of Wales Vounteers)created 1793. Regiment sent with their C/O lieutenant colonel Lachlan Macquarie on ships Hindustan and Dromedary.
Embarked 8may 1809 arr. Port Jackson 28dec 1809 held up with bad weather, then moved on Sydney Cove 1stjan 1810.
Daughter Sarah`s obit and DC say she was b.England -travelled to NSW same ship as Macquarie.However 1828 says she is Oz born.
The" Ann" must have been one of the detachments sent out in the next two months Newcastle,Parramatta,Dewent(Hobartown),Norfolk Island and Port Daryample. I will dig out more info . Typing pads gone wrong again
Fred
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Wow, thing's are gathering pace aren't they.
Fred, it might help things if I give what I have on Edward who married widow Elizabeth Harrison (nee Hull). I have no information about her dying in 1803 though, so I'll try and confirm that.
His baptism on 5th March 1803, states born 9th Feb, 3rd son of Ambrose Burnside and Elizabeth Hull.
Census details, all at Aycliffe,
1841 age 35-39 born in County
1851 age 47 no birthplace entered
1861 age 60 born Bp Auckland
1871 age 69 born Darlington
Died Q3 1879 age 76 (no burial details yet)
Apart from 1861, which might be the best guess of whoever completed their schedule, all are reasonable for the 1803 birth.
Hope it helps,
Colin
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Hi Colin, it certainly does look like your Edward is consistent in giving a birthdate of 1803 or thereabouts which would tend to rule out the "one Ambrose/two marriages to an Elizabeth" theory given that Ambrose and Elizabeth Watson also had a son called Edward, born 1813. However, if one of the younger Ambrose's is off with the militia, perhaps your Edward could be the son of Ambrose bn. 1762 and the widowed Elizabeth Harrison?? The only slight problem with this is that I think their marriage entry at St Cuthbert's gives Elizabeth as a widow but doesn't say Ambrose was also widowed?
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However, if one of the younger Ambrose's is off with the militia, perhaps your Edward could be the son of Ambrose bn. 1762 and the widowed Elizabeth Harrison?? The only slight problem with this is that I think their marriage entry at St Cuthbert's gives Elizabeth as a widow but doesn't say Ambrose was also widowed?
I like that line of thought, Ermy :)
The marriage entry does not give any marital status for Ambrose, and I thought age 23/24 would be a strange age to take on a widow with a family, but if it was an older, widower Ambrose, and he had children from a previous marriage, it would make more sense of Edward being his 3rd son. I will have to check him out, unless anyone else has already done that.
Colin
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Hello everyone
Thanks for the updates. We thought we had difficulties with the Australian Burnsides - uncertain dates of birth/ identities etc but it seems that problem is not confined to the Australian Burnsides.
We know private AB arrived in Oz in 1810. we know he died in 1827 here but DC shows age 66.
We know from AB's letter to Govt requesting land that he arrived with 73rd (and had been in 4th Royal Vet Battalion earlier). Most of regiment arrived earlier in 1810 but AB and some others followed as guards on convict ships.
I hired a researcher to search Kew records who found the link for AB from 73rd back to 4th RVB back to 82nd reg back to Durham militia - potter and age 17 in 1799. - which doesn't agree with DC.
We know he had a wife Sarah but don't know details of marriage or maiden name.
We know his daughter Elizabeth married in 1821 but don't know her age precisely.
We know his daughter Sarah (my GGG grandmother) claimed to be born in England but 1828 muster lists her born here.
Son Benjamin seems to disappear (along with the surname Burnside) although several of AB's daughters - incl Ann keep the name Ambrose for their children etc.
We suspected that wife Sarah may have been a second wife (and not the mother of Elizabeth because there is a large gap between daughter Eliz and other children.
Janet
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A birth in 1762 would be just about right for a first marriage in Whitby to Violet Patterson in 1783 - has anyone got access to the actual PR/BT to see whether any other info is given re parish/occupation/parentage for Ambrose? I would lean towards my Ambrose who married Elizabeth Watson being one of the younger chaps given that they are still having children up to 1825.
Hi Janet, posts crossed in the ether. Nice to see Burnsides keeping up the old family traditions across the water! Did your AB get an army pension, he's not in the National Archives on line catalogue which has indexed WO 97 for much the late 1700s/early 1800s? Was the researcher able to ascertain when/why he left the military?
Ermy
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Hi, and welcome Janet,
We are getting some good stuff coming in from all parts, and its looking at the moment in favour of 1762 being the father of Edward 1803.
I didnt have the death of Violet in 1799, or the birth of other Violet 1806, thanks for that.
I have Iabella 1786 Stockton; Edward 1790 Yarm;Ambrose1791 yarm;
William 1796 Yarm. ch of Ambrose and Violet IGI batch no`s
Theres also a Richard b. 08dec1795 to Edward and Elizabeth.
Now we are also upto date with Janet, we can push on
Fred
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Hello Janet and all,
How would you feel about your AB in Oz, being the same as father of Edward born 1803?
I've been thinking of the Whitby Ambrose, and the birthplace of Edward's mother, Elizabeth Hull which was written as Stays, which I can only presume is Staithes, a very close neighbour of Whitby.
Could AB have joined the Navy, married a widow after leaving, and she had Edward while visiting AB's relatives in Darlington before they left for a new life in Oz. Baby Edward would not be able to withstand the voyage so they left him at home, to send for him later but that never happened.
Just a thought,
Colin
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Hello again everyone.
In reply to Ermy, private AB was invalided from the 73rd in 1814 and then joined another veteran corps here - the Royal Vet Corps. When they were disbanded in 1824, he chose to stay here and for a short period in 1825 he served as a constable.
Hi Colin,
I don't really have any evidence either way to comment on my AB being father to Edward, although there are plenty of other cases where young children accompany their parents - convict and free - on the journey.
We think daughter Elizabeth did, but can't find any record of her being born. She married here in 1821 and Ambrose is described as her father at the bigamy trail of Elizabeth's husband.
Janet
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Hi,
I had thought of your info wayback on Eliz.Hull and agree with your thoughts on her. Could Elizabeth Hull bp 09feb1766 Whitby be her f. Thomas.
B/T`s for Sedgefield are off the air at the moment, but i have a burial
Mary dau. of Ambrose and Violet Burnsides (strangers) 4th Apr1794. I suppose "strangers meant Hawkers or var. travellers.
Dug this up *2nd almost wiped outin Windies-rebuilt1798 from other regiments-went to Quiberon Bay france-july 1800 Minorca ubtil1802-returned to England-Ireland(cannot find notes on this but i believe Cork and Dublin were mentioned.) have had a little try at finding a marriage. A second battalion was formed in 1804 in Horsham Sussex.- 1807 to Copenhagen, and returned to Deal in Kentsame year then to Portugal 1808
I cant find anything for later Fred
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Hi
The death of an Ambrose Burnside in Sedgefield in 1843 aged 80 had me thinking hard. If the age at death is right then a birth of 1763 would be interesting. Is this the Ambrose from Blackwell 1762?. I only have the one Ambrose c 1762 in my list, my thought on this is that if this is the Ambrose from Blackwell then who is the AB in OZ who's DC information suggests a birth c 1763.
Gary
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I would think that one year difference in the birth year would be very good. I am used to 5-10 year errors. i am satisfied that AB in Sedgefield is the same as born 1862. The DC in Oz was collated by wife Sarah, and according to Janet was a heavy drinker. (i dont know how she knows that). What is more
worrying is the difference of a man joining up gives his true age as 17y, then if he tells his wife his true age, how would she be about 15 years out on his DC. Sarah according to her DC was only 39 when he died. (27years difference.) Although i have a Alice that married a John Brass 28 years difference (funny, she went to Oz)
Fred
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Well the OZ AB certainly seems to be odd even for a Burnside.
My theory is that the OZ AB was the son of Benjamin baptised in 1779, this is mainly based on naming patterns as the OZ AB has a son named Benjamin. I have trawlled the George Bell collection for a marriage to a Sarah nothing even close, nor is there anything likely in the IGI. I wondered if this marriage took place abroad?? or did they ever marry??.
The AB that married Elizabeth Hull is, I believe the widower of Violet Patterson. I think the PRs for the birth of Violet in Yarm 1806 may shed some light on that relationship.
And finally the AB that married Elizabeth Watson was the son of Edward baptised 1778, again based on naming patterns.
This is just a theory.
Gary
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Hi All
I have put a look up request on the North Riding board for the baptism of Violet. Hopefully someone may have some info.
Gary
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Hello again,
The family names of the 1779 AB seem to fit the Oz AB. The main stumbling block is the age on the DC.
However, we have a newspaper report from 1830 of the Coroner examining the body of Sarah Burnside and finding the cause of death as "habitual intemperance".
We're 99% sure this is AB's widow - its definitely not their daughter, so this may help to explain the apparent inaccuracy in AB's DC.
Janet
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Gary
I had already given up "my" AB1779 to being the one who went to Oz, for the same reasons that you have given.Ermy seems happy with1778, son of Edward, which leaves 1762 as being Oz, and we have done quite well in a couple of days. If we can sort him out then Janet will be happy as well.
Fred
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private AB was invalided from the 73rd in 1814
Does his discharge certificate give an age for this point??
Ermy
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Hi All
Just a bit of info on the Violet 1806. It would seem she married William Farnaby in 1831 at Hutton Rudby. I found her with her family, and an Ambrose aged 80, who is noted as not born in county, in the 1841 census, HO107; Piece 1258; Book: 9; Civil Parish: Hutton; County: Yorkshire; Enumeration District: 2; Folio: 17; Page: 26. Her age is noted as 35 so an 1806 birth. If the Ambrose is her father then he would have abt 45 when she was born.
Gary
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Nice find, Gary. I think this adds weight to the 1762 AB being the chap that married Elizabeth Harrison which could/would/should mean that the Oz AB is Benjamin's son in spite of the age at death being out??
Ermy
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Hi Ermy
It definitely points to at least one AB b 1762 being alive in the UK after the death of the AB in OZ.
Just to add it looks like Violet died in 1849.
Gary
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Hi everyone.
I have been researching the Burnsides with a friend from UK. He just notified me of this thread about the various Ambrose Burnsides. They can be very confusing to sort out.
I think the problem with finding out which Ambrose ended up in oz is because his age at death is incorrect, possibly mistranscribed somewhere along the line. I have the following in my Tree:
Ambrose Burnsides born 1762 Darlington s/o Ambrose and Isabell Porteaus. He married firstly Violet Patterson who I think was born 1764 Auckland St. Andrew. They had children Edward 1790, Ambrose 1791 and William 1796 all Yarm. Then Violet must have died because Ambrose then has children Edward 1803 Darlington (LDS pilot project) and Violet 1806 Yarm, with Elizabeth Hull.
In 1841 Ambrose is living Hutton Rudby next door to his daughter Violet Farnaby and her family. Ambrose died in 1843 and Violet died in 1849 Stokesley.
Edward born in 1803 married Elizabeth Swales d/o Frances Swales and Christiana Stephenson.
Ambrose Burnside born 1778 Darlington s/o Edward Burnside and Elizabeth Bousfield married Elizabeth Watson.
Ambrose Burnside born 1779 Darlington died 1827 Campbelltown NSW Australia. He was the son of Benjamin Burnsides 1749 Auckland St. Andrew and Ann Burnside 1755 Darlington. Ann was the sister of Ambrose 1762 and my great x 5 grandmother Elizabeth Burnsides who married Alexander Stephenson.
Hope this is helpfull.
Val
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Hi Val,
Strange! I have just been watching Jason Donavon on "Who do you think you are" and Liut. Colonel Lachlan Macquarie is mentioned ( Ambroses Commanding officer). then i came on the comp. and found your posting.
I have just changed my Ambroses around recently and now they read the same as yours. After going over your post i am confident that all your details tie up with mine, so after about 8 yrs I will lay it to rest, (but would love to know where Am married Sarah)
Good luck and thanks Fred
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Hello Val,
I've been watching these threads with great interest for some time without ever commenting although one of our Burnsides' sister has on our behalf. Her name is Janet and she has just alerted me to this recent addition. Val I noticed you are from Australia. I'm organising a get-together for a few Oz descendants and was wondering if you are interested in coming along.
Susan
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Hi Fred,
Nice to meet again. What a good feeling to sort something out and be confident you have it right. But seems there is always something else to search for. Do love the hunt though. Wonder what they would thinkof us ;D ;D
Regards Val
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Thanks Susan, will contact you.
Val
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Anybody up for the next generation of Burnsides? ;D Trawling through the PR on Ancestry, found a burial for Ambrose Burnside aged 60 of Darlington on 29/6/1782 at St Peter’s, Leeds. Cause of death given as "killed by a stab with a knife"!! Could this be Ambrose, the husband of Isabella Porteous (first child of the couple, so far identified, was Ambrose bp. 24/9/1752 at St Cuthberts, Darlington).
Ermy
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Ouch sounds like fun but worth a "Stab" still would be nice to sort out if said Ambrose was from Darlington.
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Hi,
If Ambrose buried at Leeds in 1782 was aged 60 and from Darlington, then it may be Ambrose baptised 1726 Auckland St. Andrew, who married Isabell Porteous. How interesting though.
Val
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Hi All,
Nice to see you are all still at it. I have 7 children of Ambroses from Ann 1755 to Catherine 1770, but no Ambrose 1752 (who must have died, as theres Ambrose again in1762.)
It`s an interesting find Ermy, and may lead to some thing else. I have a paper story of Ambrose b.1822 who was found in the morning drowned in the beck at Staindrop,(should have taken his water with the whiskey before leaving the pub).!!
Fred
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Doh, forgot Edward my 4xggrandfather bp. 20/6/1750, son of Ambrose & Isabella! I also have Ambrose bp. 24/9/1752, Ann bp. 22/2/1755, Catherine bp. 25/5/1757, Elizabeth bp. 25/3/1760, Ambrose bp. 27/6/1762, Margaret bp. 25/9/1765, Isabella bp. 18/5/1768 and Catherine bp. 6/6/1770, all at St Cuthbert's, Darlington. Thanks for that Val, not sure I had a note of that baptism at St Andrew's Auckland, really must sort my paperwork out! If this burial was Isabella's hubby, wonder if she ever knew what had happened to him on his travels..... :-\
Ermy
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Did anyone look further into Ambrose's death?
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I have started looking at my mothers Family tree, her Maiden name was Lily Burnside, her Father was Thomas, on the 1861 census it shows 2 Burnside families living next door to each other, Ambrose & his family at 26 Sunderland Rd, Edward and his family at No.27, both Licenced Hawkers, if our families are connected any information would be appreciated.
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hi Bugman,
Glad to hear from you. give me a bit more of where you fit in to the family.
I have Thomas b1918 55 New Elvet rd Durham C. His father Edward who was son of Joseph, son of Edward you have in 1861 census. My Benjamin was also son of this Edward.
All for now Fred.
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Hi Fred,
My grandfather Thomas was born 1890 at new Durham, His Father was Joseph was from Guisbrough, Yorks. Hannah his wife from Cockfield, the rest of the family on the 1891 census are - Sarah H (18)
Mary (15), Edward (11), Richard (11), Ellen A (8), Joseph (6),
John.
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Hi John,
All i have for this period is Edward c1878 married a Isabella Stockdale. One census had a Ashworth c1880, was that actually Richard. My memory (75 years old) tell me there was a Lily at Hetton le hole. I`m Luton, previously Easington Lane. I have other p/work somewhere, what sort of things do you need.
Fred
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basically any information on the Burnsides, it does not really matter if they are not a direct link, I might be able to show there is a link between them later.
I am not just after a family tree, I would like to get to know how these people lived, and what happened to them.
if you send me your email address I will send you what information I have, based on censuses,
with the exception of info off family search. my email address is (*)
I will send it tommorow.
John.
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy, to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
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If Ambrose buried at Leeds in 1782 was aged 60 and from Darlington, then it may be Ambrose baptised 1726 Auckland St. Andrew, who married Isabell Porteous. How interesting though.
You probably already know the answer (since it's more than 4 years elapsed since the original discussion) but the Ambrose that died in Leeds was from Darlington. The Bishop's Transcript doesn't mention an age, but it must be a good chance that it is Ambrose (bap. 1726).
Nick
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Hi, i'm new to this site so please forgive me if I appear to be a bit of a novice. I'm researching my god mother, Mary Donovan's tree. Her mother was Louisa Stephenson bn 1925 Middlesbrough and her father was Richard bn 1899 Middlesbrough.
Richard's parents were William bn Guisborough c1873 (brick wall) and Mary Ann Paterson bn Spennymoor c1875 daughter of William bn c1831 ? Banwell, Northumberland.
William married Lavinia Swales bn 1837, Yarm. The connection with Lavinia leads me indirectly to Ambrose Burnside and Alexander Stephenson.
It has come to light that there is a lot of inter-marriage between the travelling community and lines get blurred, especially with christian names. I would really appreciate some help with who William Stephenson's parents were and William Pattison's just to see how they fit in to the puzzle.
Thanks,
Kim
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Some final notes from me on the Joseph Burnside who prompted this post…. Firstly the 1841 Mainsforth Census is correct for him, it seems Uncle Robert Burnside is on the census twice which I have seen elsewhere, Joseph is working for John Hall whose mother was Mary Burnside the sister of Uncle Robert, Mary had married another John Hall. Mary Burnside’s son John Hall did very well, he was the servant of Robert Surtees the historian from Mainsforth Hall and rose to the rank of butler, Surtees loved him and mentions him in his will and gave him a farm to run when he left service, John married the Surtees’ housemaid and a poem exists that Surtees wrote to them on their wedding day. John didn’t like the farm he was given- East Chilton Farm in Kirk Merrington parish- it was right next to a railway track and still is- and so he came to farm lands in Mainsforth for Robert Surtees’ widow. I have a tithe map for Mainsforth and John Hall is listed as farming most of it, no wonder he called in the Burnside clan. Joseph Burnside is on the 1841 census with John Hall, Joseph’s mother’s cousin.
Coming back to Joseph Burnside, I found a newspaper article from 1851 for a Hannah Rigg being born, the daughter of Hannah Rigg of Staindrop, single woman fathered by “Joseph Burnside of Cockerton”. Hannah is the same age as the Joseph of this post who married a different lady this same year. The baptism for little Hannah is in the Cockfield records. It would seem Joseph had a child before his marriage. Hannah Rigg the elder married Jonathan Taylor a few years later. Staindrop is just slightly north of Alwent toll bar on Staindrop Road which that same year was ran by Mary Burnside, this Mary’s father was Joseph Burnside the brother of Lavinia, Robert, Mary et al. The Alwent toll cottage where Mary lived is still on the road. It may explain why Joseph was in the area, this Mary Burnside was Joseph’s mother’s cousin.
We established Joseph was the son of Hannah Burnside the daughter of Lavinia Burnside before Lavinia married George Cowley. Lavinia also had another llegitimate child, a son called Robert- she is the Violetta that stumped us way back on this thread, whether she went by this name as well or if it is a misreading of Vianer which she also went by is unknown, her death cert however gives her name as ‘Violet Cowley’ which might show she used them both just to be fickle. I have located Lavinia and George’s house in Walworth Gate from tithe maps, it is still there. Anyway, this Robert Burnside married Mary Goldsborough, Robert was a coal miner but died young, they had a son born in Walworth where Lavinia was living called William. This William Burnside was later arrested for housebreaking and attempting to shoot a police officer, he was transported to Australia. I found two photos of him in Australian convict records. This William Burnside is Joseph’s cousin and not his mother’s cousin for once! Hope this helps someone.