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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: Grey Seagull on Friday 09 October 09 10:57 BST (UK)
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Hi,
Wondered if someone had used this publication enough to be able to tell be if the parents of the burial listed as:
29. Coll MacDonald d 12/4/1875 aged 44. Parents Archibald MacDonald died 1861 Kilmonivaig and
Ann Gillies
are the same people that appear in the burial chart as:
16/7/1864 Archibald McDonald, Crofter died aged 79 at Kilmonivaig.
Spouse: Ann Gillies;
Father: John McDonald, Farmer;
Mother: Ann McArthur;
Informant: Angus McDonald, Son.
Just wondering if there had been a copying error: handwritten 1864 might have been confused as 1861 when it was typed.
Does anyone know where the information for this document came from and if it is still accessible? Apologies if that info is given in the book: ran out of time to read the introduction.
Thanks :)
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There is certainly the death on SP of an Archibald McDonald aged 79 in 1864, showing under Lochaber parish on SP (nothing showing for 1861 anywhere in Inverness-shire).
Monica :)
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Hi Monica,
Thanks for your reply. Just found the 51 census in Boleskine and Abertaff: Archibald 61, Ann 60, Angus 28 so that fits with the burial chart, but no Coll, but of course he could have been living elsewhere.
However, I see you have Gillies & Knoydart on your interest list. After about 10 years of searching for my husband's grandfather's birth certificate, I think I have at last found his birth in Knoydart plus 4 siblings. His name was McDonell and he was born in Lochhournhead, his father coming from the Kilmonivaig area.
His mother, Ann McDonald, seems to have lived most of her short life in Knoydart, though the 71 census says she was born at Glenquoich: other info says Glenelg which is a very large area!! I have found a sister Catherine and brother Angus so far. Their mother is Mary Gillies (with a first marriage to Donald Mcdougall) and her parents are William Gillies and Cathrine McDonald. Don't know where they were from yet.
Ann Mcdonald's father was Samuel Mcdonald (c 1806 - 1878) and his parents were Archibald McDonald and Anne Gillies, hence my interest in the information in the Cille Choirill Brae Lochaber book.
But wondered if there was any connection with your Gilles interests in Knoydart?
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The Gillies are one of my big walls :'( Not helped by the fact they were Roman Catholic. My 4xgrandmother Christy Gillies was born in Glenelg c. 1813, father John and mother Sarah. I have Christy with father aged 70 in the 1841 census, mother already deceased. The family show in Inverguseron in 1841. After this Christy joined her husband Angus MacDonald (MacIsaac) and his family down in Moidart. Christy, like your entries, only ever showed either Glenelg or Knoydart on the census. That's as far as I have got going back on that line.
Monica :)
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This looks to be the family in 1841 in case you don't have it:
Arch MacDonald 50, crofter
Ann MacDonald 45
John MacDonald 20
Alexander MacDonald 15
Coll MacDonald 13
Duncan MacDonald 11
Donald MacDonald 9
Duncan Gillies 90
Address: Balpishal Commonly Called Bunoich, Boleskine and Abertarff
There is a submitted entry on IGI for son Alexander's marriage to a Janet Cameron on 23 JAN 1862 in Kilmonivaig. His is the only birth entry that shows on IGI, actual extract:
ALEXR. MAC DONELL Birth: 22 APR 1823 Kilmonivaig
Parents:ARCHD. MAC DONELL and ANN GILLIES
Monica
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:P I always fix on dates!
You say that Samuel McDonald's parents were Archibald McD and Ann Gillies. With the birth year of 1806 you have, this Archibald and certainly Ann wife were too young surely to be his parents?
Monica
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1861 census for Archibald and Ann plus sons Angus and Donald, with grand-daughter Ann (who was born 1855, Ft William) plus domestic Servant Alice McIsacc, b Moidart.
Although Samuel and Mary lived for some time on Knoydart, they both died 1878 & 1877 in North Morar. Is that where Moidart is, or is it further south. Still need to do some searches to see if I can find deaths for Archibald and Anne: may just be possible...
Yes, understand the frustrations: McDonell/McDonald; vast area covered by Glenelg; and RC pre-1855: checked a couple of births I checked on SP but nothing found. No RC marriages when I checked: hoping this is more likely to be recorded than the apparent lack of baptisms! But at least my Ann and Alexander McDonell were married in the smaller area of Abertaff, so may be able to find something.
:)
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Remember there are no RC marriages available on line before the start of official registration in 1855. SP has just released on line the long awaited RC birth/baptism registers. There are help notes on the site, including what parishes are available.
Moidart is certainly further south than Glenelg. It borders Argyll and at one time, some of the parishes were classified as within Argyll. This is an excellent family history site for that area (I lost nearly 12 months of life in this area!) www.moidart.org.uk
To help you get your bearings, this is a good parish map for Inverness-shire and Argyll:
www.scotlandsfamily.com/parish-map-inverness.htm
www.scotlandsfamily.com/parish-map-argyll.htm
Monica
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Hi,
Meant that when I did the birth/baptism searches that the marriages were unavailable as yet. Sorry for the confusion.
I don't think I will be tracing down Alice McIsacc but thought she may be of interest to you.
Many years ago as a student, I spent my summer holiday working on Knoydart so this possible family connection - although it is my husband's - is fairly wierd in a way but for once, I kind of know the geography of the area I am researching - although I never made it to Lochhournhead as the road from Inverie doesn't seem to go there but rather comes from the Kilmonivaig area. Still, it will be nice to go back for a visit!
:)
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Hi Monica,
I missed a couple of your replies when I last replied.
Regarding the info on 41 census, Archibald would have been born c1791 and Ann c1796.
The Archibald who is buried at Cille Choirill Brae Lochaber in 1864 would have been born c 1785.
As yet, I don't know if either of the Archibalds is an ancestor: was just browsing in the book and thought it a bit odd to have two couples with the same names connected to the same small burial ground in so short a space of time. But it happens. Need to go and hunt down other census and death records to try to establish if either Archibald is connected - or if there is a third couple out there!
Thanks for your help. Having the 41 census helped answer my original question.
:)
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Did you come right with your Cille Choirill queries. I have intimate knowledge of the graveyard and much of the history of the poeple buried there. I can help further if you want?
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Dear unachan
iI found your post sayting that you had good Knowledge of the incumbants of cille choirille graveyard. i'm sorry to hijack someone elses thread i will post a new one but i partically wanted to connect with you. I'm trying to track down a clementina macdonald, married to alen macdonald, she died about 1840. we believe that she was sister to farther Coll (1813 - 1889) however I'm unable to find any eveidence other than my family's word of mouth. sadly due to Uncle colls connection to mary mackillop alot of geneologies are floating around on line with father colls bothers and sisters ( donald, catherine, Flora, Mary ) but we believe another sister clementina should be on there too....
Coll , his mother and I believe sister catherine are burried at Cille choirille. Clementina had a son Angus in 1839 and his birth is registered at st margearets in Roy Bridge and their residence is noted as Bridge of Aonachan. I believe that she would have ben burried at Cille choirille. I have an article written about father coll by alex campbell in the late 1950s. he said that father coll decided to join the priesthood in 1841 after te eath of his favourite sister. we have always been told that clemetina died when angus was a baby so the stories stack up...i would just like sme eveidence...
If you could help in anyway ....
very best wishes, helen
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Hi ohelen1,
I am sitting in Mozambique right now and without my notes etc. will respond in a few weeks!!
Unachan
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Dear unachan,
Lucky you.. I love africa..but have never yet travelled to mozambique. I've just re-read my post...hope it makes sense, I was in a hurry and there's some hefty typos in there!
Look forward to hearing from you when you return..
many thanks, Helen
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Hi Helen,
not on holiday unfortunately, I work in South African and I am working here for two weeks.
But still an interesting experience. I really know the family well you are talking about, have you heard of "Pirie-Watson", also wrote notes on the family which I have at home.
Till next week.
Unachan
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Dear unanchan,
Very excited to hear that you know the family ....from the way my family spoke about father coll we knew that he was a well known figure in the area and they were very proud of being associated with him. But it seems that my branch of the family has been lost to sight.
Clementina died leaving my great great gandfather as a baby. Some-one has been doing some research because In the Register from saint margarets there is a note in pencil saying that in 1841 Allen her husband is living alone in Aonachan and that he later went on marry sarah macpherson in 1846.
Now the word of mouth story goes that she was a widow with 2 children and one day when Angus was 11 those children beat him up so badly that he went to his Uncle (father coll) in Fort wiliam and from there on in lived with him.....we were always told that Uncle Coll bought Angus up.
Angus was an only child and left scotland and settled in Newark, he had 11 children and about 30 grandchildren so by now there must be hundreds of descendants....
I haven't heard of Pirie - Watson. I live in surrey and have only visited scotland three times. However this is very important to my mother so I'm trying to research as much as possible and then visit Scotland with her in the Summer...
my husbands father was south african so we visit family there at least every two years. They have been some of our best memories..my children adore the place...I'm a bit more twitchy especially in Jo' burg.
I'll leave you in peace!
very best wishes, Helen
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Hi Helen,
intrigued as to your reference from St Margaret's, the originals were copied by Ann MacDonell Spean Bridge. She was a well known local family historian and made notes in her copies where she recognised the family. I have a copy at home of that register. I also have a copy of the Kilmonivaig parish register which sometimes adds to local families.
Ann macDonell was co-author with me on pre 1900 gravestone inscriptions in Cille Choirill.
Father Coll's father was Angus 'drochaid" of the Cranachan family, Mother Mary's maternal grandfather was Donald "drochaid" and my great great grandfather Archibald "drochaid" was another brother. You do know i am sure that Blessed Mary MacKillop is being canonised in October this year?
This is from my laptop, but I still need to see the rest of my notes.
The Pirie-Watson was father Vincent Pirie-Watson who was from a sister of father Coll, Catherine, he was a monk at fort augustus and if I remember rightly died in the early 1980's.
Unachan
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Dear unachan,
I tried to send attachment but it looked very odd as though a link was being made to my computer! If you send me a personal post with an email I could send you the documents that I have..
My mother is a practising catholic and became aware of the Blessed mary mackillop link when she visited the Clan Donald centre in her attempts to track down her gg grandmother. She told them that her gg gm was a sister to Father coll and out came the red carpet....except of course although we believe this to be a fact ... i can't prove it.
The problem is there alot of geneologies floating around the internet on the Macdonalds of Cranachan , I'm no expert, yet I spot mistakes and inconsistencies, so I shouldn't be upset if Clementina isn't listed along side Father colls brothers and sisters..... however people use them as a primary source and the mistakes are being replicated.
The clan donald gave my mother details on catherine thinking may be she was the sister we were after...but she's not. However Interesting to note is that her first born child in 1842 was called clementina...
I have promised to take my Mother to Rome for the cannonisation....but feel it would also be prudent to establish that she was father colls sister first... :) Mind you any excuse to visit Rome....
Best wishes, Helen
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Helen,
how do I send a personal post?
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Hi Unachan
Just click on the small green scroll under Helen's name on the l/h side and this will take you through to the PM service :)
Monica
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Hi,
Have just been looking at all the info again, and realised my maths let me down!
By 41 census, Archibald was born c1790, Ann c1791
By 51 census, Archibald was born c1791, Ann c1796
By burial records, Archibald was born c1796
Coll in 41 was born c1828, by death date was born c1831
If Samuel was born c1806, Ann would have been 15 if born in 1791; 10 if born in 1796.
It is therefore possible that this Archibald and Ann were his parents, but equally possible that they were not!
So, if anyone has anymore information that would clarify this issue, would be most grateful!
Thanks.
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Hello Helen and Unachan,
I am a Sister of St Joseph in Sydney Australia and we are compiling a genealogy of Mary MacKillop. Would either of you have family trees or genealogys done of your lines back to Mary. We've had hundreds of contacts claiming kinship with her and we are trying to accurately update our own records.
Thank you
Kath O'Connor rsj
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Dear Kath,
I would be delighted to send you my family tree, ironically it is because of the link with mary mackillop that I have been left to doubt our geneology as the family trees compiled do not have my relative where she should be, ie as a sister to father Coll Macdonald, so ironically I feel that I have to find some evidence.On the other hand the fact that my gt gt grandfather was a macdonald from Spean Bridge probably means that he was related in some way !
In my case I would rather wait until I have something more conclusive than word of mouth before I state my families relationship to her, althougn when my great gt grandfather was talking about his Uncle Coll ( priest and cousin to mary makillop) he would not have known that one day she would be so celebrated. Back then father Coll was the well known figure.
As you can see from Unachans posting he is descended through Archibald " Droichoid" of Cranachan macdonalds , mary mackillop was descended through his brother , Donald, and I believe I am descended through another brother Angus.
As soon as I have something a little more concrete I will get back to you,
very best wishes, Helen
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Helen, one of the Mackillop's married a shepherd from Speyside named Ross and lived in Shesgnan on the top of the Spey, just through from Glen Roy......Skoosh.
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Dear Skoosh,
Thankyou for the info, but my clementina Macdonald was (I'm hoping to prove ) a cousin to Mary Mackillops mother , Flora macdonald.
Clementina married Allen Macdonald and Flora married Alexander Mackillop.....
very best,Helen
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Hi Helen, Lovely to hear from you. Below is what I have on your Angus and his children. Who is your ancestor of the 3 girls? Can you send what genealogy you have and I will try and put it together with what i have and send it back to you. I haven't heard back from Unachan yet but look forward to hearing from him.
Warm regards Kath
(There were to brothers Angus Mor - "Inch" and "Drocoid")
14. Angus Mor Drochoid McDonald (6.Donald3, 2.Donald2, 1.Angus1) b. of, Cranachan, Inverness, Scotland, m. Mary McDonald.
Children:
i Catherine McDonald m. Alexander McDonald.
ii Donald McDonald.
iii Flora McDonald m. Donald Gillies.
iv Mary McDonald m. John McDonald.
v Coll (Rev.) McDonald b. 6 Feb 1812, d. 30 Nov 1879.
15. Angus Mor (?Inch) McDonald (6.Donald3, 2.Donald2, 1.Angus1) b. of, Cranachan, Inverness, Scotland, m. Mary Corbett.
Children:
i Donald McDonald b. 1810, m. Marcella McDonald.
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Kathoc, Insh is a farm on the left bank of the Spean, opposite Roybridge, Drochaid (bridge) could refer to Roybridge itself?....Skoosh.
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Dear Kath,
Thank you so much for coming back to me...My family always believed that Father Coll had another sister that isn't on your geneology called Clementina who married Allan macdonald of Aonachan (unachan) iin 1838 ,which I believe is the old name for Spean Bridge. So we believe that Angus Mor Drochaid had 6 children, not 5.
Clementina died in 1841 or thereabouts, she had one child called Angus who is my great great grandfather. Apart from word of mouth the only proof that I have that father Coll and Clementina were brother and sister is an article published back in the 195O's. It states that father Coll seem to decide overnight to become a priest after the death of his favourite sister.
Catherine lived for many years, her first daughter born in 1842 was called Clementina, possibly in memory of her dead sister. Flora and mary I do not know when they died. However if they died after 1843 it would substantiate what we believe further.
It is ironic that due to the information on the web that misses off Clementina I feel that I have to prove where she fits in. I'm also dubious as to the primary souce of the family trees floating around on the web as people are lifting information from family trees , not naming the source and the mistakes are being replicated over and over again. For example Father Coll was a catholic priest, to my knowledge a catholic priest is always called Father, not Reverand.
I myself made a mistake on another branch of the family. I assumed that a child was the child of the mother and the father...it was only when I obtained the birth certificate that I found out that she was illegitimate...which from a family tree perspective makes a big difference. However people had copied my information and I have noticed they haven't updated and corrected their trees.
If you would like further information on my branch of the family please contact me on the ancestry.co.uk website my user name is ohelen and then I can open up my tree for you to see. Angus ( son of clementina) had 11 children so it has become quite a big family .
May I ask where you obtained the geneology below?
If you have any information or hear anything that could help me find Clementinas place in history I would be truly grateful. My mother is so frustrated as she says why would anyone say someone was their uncle if he wasn't ? But as a researcher I do not believe word of mouth is sufficient...and without a little more proof I do not feel that I can bolt on Clementina to the family without something more tangible. I was always told that one family member had died back in 1904 of Syphillis, his name was whispered and the sense of disgrace palpable. I obtained a copy of his death certificate...he died of Pythisis, which was a Victorian medical term for tuberculosis.. Poor man ...so you can see why I don;t always trust word of mouth..yet there is an essence of truth there. Middle class families did tend to keep quiet about TB as it was percieved as a working class illness, so if they were saying Pythiis in hushed tones, I suppose you can see how assocaiation and chinese whispers turned it into Syphillis !
Unachan is desended through Angus mor Droichoid brother Archibald and mary mackillops mother was the daughter of a third brother called Donald. So this makes my clementina the cousin of mary mackillops mother, Flora. I am sure that unachan will be in touch, as you see from a previous post he is away from home working at the moment., but he does know alot about this family, and I believe that he has done alot of research.
Please do contact me on ancestry if you want to see my tree and I will keep you updated as to what I find...
very best wishes, helen
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Hi Helen
Have you seen this entry on Father Coll www.archive.org/stream/catholichighland02blunuoft/catholichighland02blunuoft_djvu.txt - sections 75 and 76 principally.
It gives you some indication on his movements through the late 1840-50s, with fascinating insights into his life. It also includes details from his obituary, 1891.
He looks to have transferred over to Fort William c. 1854 - I was just trying to check whether we could find young Angus living with him on the censuses following the family stories that he went to live with Uncle Coll in Fort William. Angus would have been c. 14-15 then? Before this date, Father Coll looks to have returned to Scotland following his ordination in Rome c. 1850 and from the link given, moved to the Isle of Canna and then Knoydart by June 1851.
I haven't been able as yet to find him on the 1851 census. Have you been able to locate young Angus in the 1851 census?
Monica
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His 1861 census entry:
Call McDonald 45, Roman Catholic Priest, b. Kilmonivaig, Invernessshire
Mary McDonald 76, mother b. Sleat, Invernessshire
Clementine McDonald 20, servant b. Abertarff, Invernessshire...is this a niece (daughter of sister Catherine)?
Dond McIntosh 24, visitor, RC priest
Mary McDonald 18, visitor b. Abertarff, Inverness
Address: Priests Square, Kilmallie
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Dear Monica,
Thank you so much for your help. I'm still drawing blanks.Ii haven't been able to find father Coll on the 1851 census.....maybe I should take a tip from the 1861 and look him up as Father Call :)
I haven't found Angus either on either the 1841 (aged 2) the 1851 (aged 12 ) or the 1861.
The clementine on the 1861 may well be the daughter of catharine . Clementina was born in 1841. According to a very kind researcher at the clan Donald centre who found the family on the 1841 census , they were living at Dundreggan in Glen Morriston. Clementina is listed as born in the parish of Glenmoriston.
However whilst Clementina is living with her parents in 1841, 1851, and 1871, she isn't witrh them on the 1861.
I don't know where Aberstaff is, her birth place on the 1861, if its around Glen Moriston this could well be her.
very best , Helen
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Hi Kath,
My relationship to Mary McKillop, Angus Mor Inch McDonald -Mar- Mary Corbett
Donald Mar Marcella, McDonald Donald is first cousin to Flora
Angus Thomas McDonald Mar Catherine Rankin
Angus Thomas Mc Donald Mar Sarah Collins
then my parents
That is 5 generations
My relationship chart tell me i am second cousin 3x removed from Mary the 17 October is our wedding anniversary Mary was an Australian so this is were we will celebrate saying that Rome will be full of Aussie
Thanks Take Care Marie
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Hi Bronylea,
Thanks for your response, it so exciting to find Mary's relatives. Would it be possible to access your family tree to add your information to our archives. Are you going to Rome for the Canonisation? Have you had any previous contact with the Srs of St Joseph in Australia or Scotland? - we have a community at Fort William, Roys Bridge.
Warm regards
Kath
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Hi Kath,
Wonderful to here from you i fell very proud and humble to be related to Mary The Mc Donald's who arrived on the British King in 1839 had a reunion in Cooma 1989 Sr Ursula was there (not sure of the spelling)we had a great time.
I am a member of the Sisters of St Joesph wont name the town i live in but our darling St Margaret is in St Vincents Hospital Sydney waiting surgery Just been told our Priest has made a special trip to see her she is loved by all plenty of paryes going her way.
No i have no contact with the sister in Scotland should think about that no not going to Rome it would be great
I would love to send you my tree just give me time to go over it again will be in touch how to send it to you
Kind regards
Bronylea
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Lovely to hear from you Bronylea. I look forward to hearing from you and will say a prayer for Sr Margaret.
Kath
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I wrote a huge reply last week to some of the issues brought up, it didn't post and i lost it, very frustrating!!!
I will try and think it out again, just back from a couple of trips and go again soon.
I am intrigued about who the Angus mor Inch is? The father of Catherine and father Coll was Angus mor drochaid and he also had a son Donald?
Can you elaborate just a bit more Bronylea as to where Angus mor Inch comes in?
I have a small book produced by The sisters in Fort William, Patricia Keane RSJ. I have the 2010 re-print, just delivered to me. It is about Blessed Mary's journey through Scotland Oct 1873-Jan 1874. Many good pictures in it of the local places she visited.
For Kathoc, the sisters are based in Fort William and Roy Bridge is a very small village about 12 miles from Fort William.
Unachan
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I am very interested in this thread as Archibald and Ann are my great great grandparents.
I am having problems sending private messages ???
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Hi Henrietta,
this topic went a bit off the original subject and was following another Cranachan family.
This Archibald was called the "lord", a nickname from the times when there were plenty of Archibald MacDonalds about at the same time. I have some information on the later generations of this family in Spean bridge. Archibald was from the Cranachans branch of the Keppoch MacDonalds.
Unachan
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Welcome to RootsChat, Henrietta :)
You need to post at least 3 messages on the main forum before you can use the Private Message service (PMs).
Hope you are well Unachan :)
Monica
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Thanks for your replies, Unachan and Monica.
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I am thanks Monica, already in contact with Henrietta. Must say didnt know the rules about the number of posts before personal messages, but of course I was never a big user. I had corresponded with henrietta's late mum many years ago.
Hope this finds you well, will drop a line soon.
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Hi My name is Hamish and I live in Sydney Australia.
I am interested in Ann Gillies.
My 2G grandmother was Mary Gillies who according to all the infromation I can use was born in Glenelg (like Ann) in 1816. I believe Mary did not marry my 2G grandfather Angus McDonald and after he passed away at an early did eventually marry a McDonald and lived in Fort William. I would be interested if someone could help me further with my McDonald/Gillies trace.
Hamish
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Hi Hamish
Welcome to RootsChat :)
Have you been able to confirm your Mary Gillies' parents' names, most likely from her death cert? Or, if she married after 1855 and the start of official registration, her marriage entry will also include her parents' names.
Monica :)
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Hi Hamish
I saw a record on Scotlands People of an Mary Gillies marrying an Archibald McDonald, a widower of Fort William.
Her parents were John and Sarah Gillies, she was a domestic servant.
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That is an interesting entry for Mary's parents. My Christina's parents were also John and Sarah Gillies.
This is Christina's entry in 1841, already married to my GGGgrandfather Angus MacDonald/MacIsaac. She shows at home whilst Angus is out shepherding!:
John Gilles 70, cottar
Peggy Gilles 35
Kate Gilles 30
Ewen Gilles 25
Chirsty Gilles 20
John Macdonald 2
Address: Inverguseron, Glenelg
I think John, father, has died by 1851 as I could not find any trace of him apart from the 1841 census entry. Peggy went on to marry a John MacDonald and died in Fort William in 1876. Ewen went on to marry a Catherine McIntosh and also died in Fort William in 1892.
From memory, I haven't got my documents in front of me, Sarah's maiden name also showed as Gillies on the death registrations of her children.
Monica
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Hello all,
I too am a descendant of the Cranachan McDonalds. There are some confusions though! I would like some information on Ian Gorm McDonald son of Donald McDonald b. 1740 and Mary McDonald b. abt 1745. Can anyone help me?
Cheers
Julie
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Hi Julie
Welcome to RootsChat :)
Unachan is your man for this info! However, I believe he is travelling at the moment but I am sure he will be in touch as soon as he can. I have had a computer crash on my old laptop and have lost in the process a number of notes/emails I had from Unachan which I could have sent you in the meantime :-\
Monica
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I've just had a look at the chart Unachan sent me, it looks like Ian is an uncle of Flora, mother of St Mary of the Cross.
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Thank you MonicaLesl and Henrietta7. Yes I understood him to be an Uncle of Flora McDonald. Is there some way that I could have a copy of that Chart Henrietta7? I am interested in the names of his children and grandchildren.
Cheers Julie
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Julie, if you click on the small green scroll under Henrietta's name on the l/h side, this will take you through to the Personal Message service (PMs). This is the best way to exchange personal emails here on RootsChat :)
Monica
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Thank you Monicalesl.
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Hi Julescorn, the only reference I have to Ian Gorm, brother to Donald drochaid, is on the chart of father Andrew MacDonell and it does not show any family.
There is reference to family of Ian Gorm in a family tree produced by Don Hargreaves, but I have no idea where this information came from? so thus also no idea on its authenticity!!!
Father Andrew's chart was produced about 100 years ago to correct/update the "clan Donald" volumes. Information was from local people in Lochaber and of course still did not mean a definitive record on the Cranachans.
sorry not to be able to help you further, what information do you have at present and from where?
Unachan
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Hi Unachan, I have the same information as you that is why I am trying to verify it. On you chart does it have John born 1801 son of Donald and Mary? ??? Thank you for your help. :)
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Hi All,
! have been following the thread regarding Archibald McDonald b 1785, brother of Angus Mor Drochoid McDonald. The parents being Donald McDonald and Mary. According to my family tree my ggmother was Christina Allison Cameron, and her gggfather was Archibald McDonald.
I was hoping someone ( maybe unachan?) could please help with some more details.
Many people on the tree appear in the Monaro Pioneers Project - found online in a number of places.
Kind Regards
Tony
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Hi Tony,
I feel your frustration, you need to understand that in the area called Brae Lochaber where the "drochaid" families originated, Archibald MacDonald is as common a name as you can get. As for the Don Hargreaves and Monoro information on "this" family, I have still to be convinced or at least shown the origin of this information. The mention of "Drochaid" comes from one source only, that is the old chart of Father Andrew referred to previously. The Monoro info "fits" neatly into the onfo in this chart, I feel too neatly for my liking!!! The only info on this Archibald on that chart says he had an illegitimate daughter Mary who was my gg grandmother and that is all I have. Regards - Unachan
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Thanks!
I am having similar problems with the other line - with Donald Cameron - which seems to be a similar problem.
I also recognise as we go back in time, it gets a bit more difficult to pin things down. I will keep and eye out, and thanks for the reply!
Regards
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What info do you have on your Archibald MacDonald?
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I have a number of birth and death certificates for family back to Donald Cameron Born 1 July 1829 in Banavie Killmallie, and Birth & Death for Elizabeth McDonald born 1843 in Palmerville. Elizabeth is the granddaughter of Archibald (through his son Alexander and Janet Kinlyside).
The rest going back, is as you say, from other family and links. The Camerons prior to that are from the Clan Cameron of Australia Geneology site, as well as the Monaro Pioneers Project. I have not yet tracked back via Census nor BMD in Scotland or elsewhere.
I still have a long way to go!
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Hi Unachan - I think we have the same Archibald here is his family
Children
1. Unnamed McDonald – died before sailed to Australia
2. Catherine Mcdonald b: 1818 in Loch Hourn – married Kenneth McDonald of Glengarve, Rothshire at Glenelg 1834.
3. Alexander “Sandy” MCDONALD b: 1820 in Loch Hourn
4. Donald MCDONALD b: 1821 in Loch Hourn
5. Mary MCDONALD b: 1823 in Loch Hourn
6. Margaret MCDONALD b: 1828 in Loch Hourn
Married 13 March 1878 to Charles Campbell Cameron
7. John MCDONALD b: 12 Nov 1830 in Invernesshire
8. Colin MCDONALD b: 1832 in Invernesshire
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I note that this thread started some time back with a discussion of Father Coll MacDonald of Lochaber but has since moved on apace, so in that sense the following is not entirely relevant. However, for the sake of a bit of anecdotal fun, the following extracts come from 'A Boyhood in An Gearasdan' - a speech delivered to the Gaelic Society of Inverness in 1992 by JFM MacLeod MA LLB, whose grandfather, John MacLeod grew up in Fort William during the 1860s-70s and later wrote his memories. He notes that Father Coll was a bit before his time, so these anecdotes had 'done the rounds' in the Fort:
Tales went about in regard to the prowess of the old priest Coll Macdonald as an undiscovered salmon fisherman in his early days in Brae Lochaber and his unmortified fondness for a cut of venison of his own killing when he was a priest in Fort William. He used to drive down to Ballachulish to hold a service there on Sabbath afternoon. He saw time and again a stag within easy reach of his gun not far from the gamekeeper’s place near a clump of trees. The chance was too much for him. So one day he took his gun with him and as he was driving there, sure enough, was the stag within shot. There was a risk as the gamekeeper’s house was so near. He came out of his trap, stalked and bagged his quarry. But the sound of the shot brought out the keeper at full speed. The priest had not quite got into his trap but had hid his gun and was adjusting his clothes. He pointed beyond the wood and sent the keeper off in chase of the poacher. This gave him time to get the stag into his trap and get off before the keeper appeared on the scene again.
The free use of strong drink was quite in keeping with the social ways of the country [Lochaber] and, to say the least, it was not frowned upon by such parish ministers as Dr. Macintyre, Kilmonivaig, Dr. Clark of Kilmallie or Dr. Stewart of Nether Lochaber. On one occasion the last of these was in such a pitiable plight as to call forth the compassion of Father Coll – his word were “Bha mi air mo thamailteachadh fear dhe’ aodach a bhi ann a leithid de shuideachadh” – I felt humiliated that one of his cloth should be in such a state. The critic was not himself by any means invulnerable on the same score for when he had taken freely of the wine of the country his companions used to chaff him about Purgatory. He was asked if he believed in it. He owned that he did not but he taught it all the same. When in Fort Augustus, he used to fish freely without let or hindrance. The steamboat used to take more than half an hour passing through the canal locks there and at times Mr Murdo Mackenzie when passing through had a chat with Big Coll. Teasing the priest for his devotion to the fishing rod, Mr MacKenzie, who was soon to be married, got the answer that it was better to be fishing for salmon than to be like some others fishing for women. “What is that your church teaches about Purgatory?” Coll replied “I hear, Mr MacKenzie, that you are to get married”. “Yes”, said Mr MacKenzie “that is quite so”. “Look” said Coll, “that is the beginning of Purgatory”. Before the monastery was built in Fort Augustus Coll had the lax and easy ways of the old Highlander Romanists. After it was built he had to be much more canonical and he felt this to be a bondage. The saying holds good “In vino veritas”. He would, when he had a dram or two, be very candid in criticising the new order with which he had to comply.
He goes on to say that Father Coll’s successor was Father John MacDonald, known as Poker John because he had been driven out of a Protestant house in Fort Augustus by a lady brandishing one as a weapon.
brigau
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Here is a family line that made sense to me, in brief, and includes the Drochoids and Archibald McDonald
*Donald Macdonell the 1st of Aberarder
Son - Angus Cranachan MacDonald
*Angus Cranachan MacDonald the 1st of Cranachan
Son - Donald (Cranachan) MacDonald - born 1700
*Donald Cranachan MacDonald the 2nd of Cranachan
(Son 1 Donald McDonald born 1721 died, later child named Donald)
Son - Donald MacDonald born 1740
*Donald McDonald
Born: 1740 Cranachan
Death: unknown Moidart?
Married: 1770 Mary McDonald born about 1745
Children
1. Angus Mor Drochoid Mcdonald b: 1770 father of Father Coll
2. Donald Drochoid Mcdonald b: 1773 Mary MacKillops Grandfather
3. Ian/John Gorm Mcdonald b: 1777
4. Catherine McDonald of Cranachan
5. Angus Mor Inch McDonald b: 1780
6. Archibald McDonald b: 1785 Moidart
7. Mary McDonald b: 1787 – married Mr Cameron
8. John McDonald b: about 1801 in Knoydart
There is a big age gap between the first 4 children and the last 4 children, maybe his wife had 8 children over 33 years, or he took a 2nd wife and is mother of last 4 children. The family left Roybridge area Cranachan. Inch Gorm and Moidart references could mean the family were moving around due to Clearances?
*Archibald McDonald - all family immigrated to Australia 1837 to Monaro
Born: 1785 Moidart
Death: 16 Apr 1872 in Burra near Queanbeyan
Burial: Queanbeyan Riverside Cemetery -old Catholic section
Occupation: General dealer / farmer
Married: Margaret Ross McDonald in 1813 in Isle of Skye.
Born: 1793 in Glenfinnan, Kilmallie, Fort William, Inverness, Scotland.
Died: 10 Mar 1861 in Glengaroon, NSW of Afflection of the chest
Buried: 13 Mar 1861 St. John's Church of England, Queanbeyan
Note: Maiden name registered as "McDonald".
Father: Alexander McDonald
Mother: Margaret Ross
Children
1. Unnamed McDonald – died before sailed to Australia
2. Catherine McDonald b: 1818 in Loch Hourn – married Kenneth McDonald of Glengarve, Rothshire at Glenelg 1834.
3. Alexander “Sandy” MCDONALD b: 1820 in Loch Hourn
4. Donald MCDONALD b: 1821 in Loch Hourn
5. Mary MCDONALD b: 1823 in Loch Hourn
6. Margaret MCDONALD b: 1828 in Loch Hourn
Married 13 March 1878 to Charles Campbell Cameron
7. John MCDONALD b: 12 Nov 1830 in Invernesshire
8. Colin MCDONALD b: 1832 in Invernesshire
(one of the daughters married a James Moore)
Archibald said to have bought a farm in Glenelg Loch Hourn about 1815 and sold it to pay for fares to Australia
All children seem to be born at Glenelg Loch Hourn
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Re the info from Dixi Joy and the history of the Cranachan family - You will see from my comments on pages 5 and 6 my feelings on this Archibald MacDonald and the information from the Monaro pioneers regarding connections to Cranachan. It seems to have taken information from the source used to show St Mary MacKillop's connection to Cranachan and "fill in" family that no one has been able to explain to me. So mark me down as a total sceptic on this information. Inch is a place not far from Cranachan in Brae Lochaber, Gorm is descriptive, the person possibly had blue eyes. Limited space made most people move around at that time rather than the "clearances" per se.
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Thanks brigau for the extracts on Father Coll, the Gaelic society produced some wonderful stuff!! The Father John MacDonald known as 'poker John' was visiting the house of a friend Captain Ewen Ross who was ill in bed. The disagreement was all about religion and the supposed request from the captain to become a Catholic. This had been going on for a few days and involved the local minister and other friends. It culminated in Mrs Ross chasing three people from the house with a 'poker'!! this was in 1869 and is extensively reported in a newspaper article in the "The Star (Saint Peter Port, England)" amongst others I would guess?
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Hi Unachan thanks for your message, I was not tracing anything to do with St Mary she just happened to turn up, so did Father Coll. I found a reference that Flora St Mary's mum grew up on Cranachan farm.
I traced my bloodline from before Donald "Eponymous" MacRanald the 3rd Lord of the Isles through to the Cranachans through to Archibald.
I thought the Gorm reference may have been from the Gorm's of Knapdale? but blue eyes makes more sense.
Anyway I am just trying to find out a little more about Archibald born 1785 Moidart then moved his family to Glenelg Loch Hourn. If he or the Drochoids are not related to the Cranachans then do you know where they came from?
Dixi
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Hi Dixi, I have no idea where your Archibald came from, I just cannot find any evidence to connect this Archibald to Cranachan. The only mention i can find of the Cranachan Archibald is on a tree prepared by Father Andrew MacDonell in the early 1900's to correct some of the findings in the volumes of "Clan Donald" published in 1904. Father Andrew has the family Ian gorm, Angus mor, Donald Drochaid, Angus mor Drochaid, Archibald & Mary. Archibald has an illegitimate daughter Mary who is described in another part of the tree as "Mary Drochaid". She is my g.g.grandmother. The Monaro findings came along and seemed to link right into this family and this was splashed all over the internet and was taken as gospel. now your Archibald may very well be the Cranachan Archibald, but no one can show the link or old family papers or just something that can indicate who he originated from, it all goes back to the Monaro publication!! More questions than answers!!!!!
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Hi Urachan, always more questions, I reckon I have proved it to myself by crossing info from 4 or 5 sources to be fairly sure of the the Archi Cranachan line. I can send it to you when I get it a bit more toghether. I found stuff in the Monaro stuff a bit wrong too.
Why do you think they were called Drochaid - bridge ???
My Archibald McDonald b: 1785 Moidart married Margaret Ross McDonald
is your Mary Drochaid his daughter ?
Dixi
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Hi All,
I have just found this very interesting thread, and have a little information to add.
I've been looking at the McDonell's who migrated on the Asia in 1838/39, as they lived in the Goulburn district and married into other McDonell's who are related by marriage to my McRae's (who came on the Asia as well)
The John McDonell who came on the Asia with siblings Ann & Neil, has several siblings who remained in Scotland. John was innkeeper at Kinlochuanagan before emigrating. His elder brother Alexander was innkeeper at Lochend until he died, when his wife Catherine became innkeeper. Following her death in 1862, their daughter Elizabeth (born about 1836) and her husband were the innkeepers. You are probably wondering where this is leading.
Well Elizabeth was married to Coll McDonald (the one missing in 1861 in Monica's post) his parents being Archibald McDonald and Ann Gillies (from his marriage certificate on Scot People 4 July 1860 at Lochend).
I was very interested in the mention of Father Andrew McDonell's research as I've been trying to get a copy of his McDonell ancestors as it links to my McRae's through his grandparents, Ranald McDonell and Catherine McRae. Can anyone help with that?
I only have limited knowledge about the McDonald's through Donald Drochoid McDonald and Mary McDonald as their daughter Mary married Samuel Cameron. Was this Donald the brother of Archibald, husband of Ann Gillies?
Hoping to hear from someone more knowledgeable than me about these ideas.
AMH
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Drochaid means bridge, the family presumably living at one, which?
Skoosh.
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Hi AMH
I loved the research on this old post. I am not connected by family, just found the history of it all really interesting. There are certainly people on this thread with huge knowledge on this all, the area and the individual people and history.
Unachan, hope you are well ::) Hope you are around from your travels to pick this last post up...
Monica :)
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Hi,
I must have had a brain freeze last night, as I made an error. Father Andrew McDonell's grandparents were Ranald McDonell and Margaret McRae, Catherine was her mother.
Also I see now where Archibald's parents were listed, right at the beginning
I always say if researching in Scotland, go sideways, as quite often you came back full circle, with links back to where you started. I have in this case. I started looking at Samuel Cameron's family with a daughter possibly married at Lochend, not knowing the links to the family who came on the Asia with my McRaes', and here I am back to Samuel's wifes family.
Cheers,
Ann
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Hi Monica, I am traveling again, though this time for pleasure. In France now and will be in Lochaber on 7th June. Been away since 1st May. I am very familiar with this family and also aware of the Lochend connection, though will be delighted to make contact with AMH as I was not aware of the move to Australia. Not checking regularly, but see I have a message from AHM.
Unachan
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Great to hear from you ;) Enjoy your latest travels and glad to hear it is all pleasure! Also good to hear that you can help Ann/AHM with her line.
Take care and enjoy Scotland time in June :)
Monica
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I was interested to read the post written by Unachan that a tree had been prepared by Father Andrew MacDonell. I am descended from Annie McRae who married Archibald MacDonell and their family (except for Archibald who by then had died) appeared in the 1841 Fort August census under the name 'McDonald'. The family emigrated on the ship 'Asia' to Australia and subsequently moved to the Rangitikei district of New Zealand. There is a tree in existence that we are aware of but it shows the connection with the McRaes instead of the MacDonells. Is it possible to obtain a copy of the tree that Unachan has so that we in NZ can compare the two ? Regards, Lindsay Campbell
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Dear Kath,
Thank you so much for coming back to me...My family always believed that Father Coll had another sister that isn't on your geneology called Clementina who married Allan macdonald of Aonachan (unachan) iin 1838 ,which I believe is the old name for Spean Bridge. So we believe that Angus Mor Drochaid had 6 children, not 5.
Clementina died in 1841 or thereabouts, she had one child called Angus who is my great great grandfather. Apart from word of mouth the only proof that I have that father Coll and Clementina were brother and sister is an article published back in the 195O's. It states that father Coll seem to decide overnight to become a priest after the death of his favourite sister.
Catherine lived for many years, her first daughter born in 1842 was called Clementina, possibly in memory of her dead sister. Flora and mary I do not know when they died. However if they died after 1843 it would substantiate what we believe further.
It is ironic that due to the information on the web that misses off Clementina I feel that I have to prove where she fits in. I'm also dubious as to the primary souce of the family trees floating around on the web as people are lifting information from family trees , not naming the source and the mistakes are being replicated over and over again. For example Father Coll was a catholic priest, to my knowledge a catholic priest is always called Father, not Reverand.
I myself made a mistake on another branch of the family. I assumed that a child was the child of the mother and the father...it was only when I obtained the birth certificate that I found out that she was illegitimate...which from a family tree perspective makes a big difference. However people had copied my information and I have noticed they haven't updated and corrected their trees.
If you would like further information on my branch of the family please contact me on the ancestry.co.uk website my user name is ohelen and then I can open up my tree for you to see. Angus ( son of clementina) had 11 children so it has become quite a big family .
May I ask where you obtained the geneology below?
If you have any information or hear anything that could help me find Clementinas place in history I would be truly grateful. My mother is so frustrated as she says why would anyone say someone was their uncle if he wasn't ? But as a researcher I do not believe word of mouth is sufficient...and without a little more proof I do not feel that I can bolt on Clementina to the family without something more tangible. I was always told that one family member had died back in 1904 of Syphillis, his name was whispered and the sense of disgrace palpable. I obtained a copy of his death certificate...he died of Pythisis, which was a Victorian medical term for tuberculosis.. Poor man ...so you can see why I don;t always trust word of mouth..yet there is an essence of truth there. Middle class families did tend to keep quiet about TB as it was percieved as a working class illness, so if they were saying Pythiis in hushed tones, I suppose you can see how assocaiation and chinese whispers turned it into Syphillis !
Unachan is desended through Angus mor Droichoid brother Archibald and mary mackillops mother was the daughter of a third brother called Donald. So this makes my clementina the cousin of mary mackillops mother, Flora. I am sure that unachan will be in touch, as you see from a previous post he is away from home working at the moment., but he does know alot about this family, and I believe that he has done alot of research.
Please do contact me on ancestry if you want to see my tree and I will keep you updated as to what I find...
very best wishes, helen
Hi Helen, I too am trying to verify this Clementina Macdonald, we have the same family story. My grandmother Lilian Macdonald (Newark) was the daughter of Angus macdonald (Newark) who in turn was the son of Angus macdonald (Unachan). We have similar anecdotes of Angus' mother who died in or just after his birth, his father then resenting him and remarrying, of Angus taking a beating at the hand if his father after a fight with stepbrothers and going to live with his priest uncle. Have you had any joy in proving connections a lot of the trees floating around have lots of errors in them so I know finding definitive answers isn't going to be easy.
Any help would be really great
Thanks
Sarah :)
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I just posted this elsewhere, but it may have some implications here. "all above info could be wrong, my 3rd great grandfather is Archibald of Uriarra Canberra, but my fathers dna test suggests we are of the Clanranald line" which to my understanding is NOT the Cranachan McaDonalds. I would like to find a close relation of Mary McKillop (as she was a Cranachan) and compare dna to our line. Cheers, Angus McDonald, son of Donald Hedley, son of Alexander Hedley, son of Alexander Joseph, son of John, son of Archibald.
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The Cranachan line is part of my line via my Aunty Mary...They are related to the MacDonalds of Keppoch which includes Somerled 1113 to 1164...John of Islay Dominus Insularum 1336.....his father Aonghas òg who helped his relation Robert the Bruce consolidate his power via the family fleet at Lagavulin bay Islay....Bruce says to Aonghas before Bannockburn "is cunbhalach mo dhòchas annad" my hope is constant in thee.......My MacKinnon line is Mishnish on Mull and both lines go back to Colla Uais died 337ad high king of Ireland (Ard Rí)
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I believe the youngest daughter of Alexander MacDonnel of Keppoch, Charlotte, was married to Alexander MacDonald the prominent drover of Garva Beg, Laggan, late 18th cent'.
https://descentfromadam.wordpress.com/2013/08/20/garvabeg-keppoch-macdonald-home/
Skoosh.
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As previously stated, there is no Cranachan link for Archibald McDonald of Burra/Uriarra. My fathers big Y dna results are in and we have CLD12 positive which is the Reginald 1st Chief of Clanranald and Fiona of Lennox line. Out of his children, one had the mutation CLD50(Roderick). Archibalds line is negative to CLD50, so that rules him out. That leaves Allan (McDonells of Knoydart) or Donald (McDonalds of Glengarry) or Dougall. I’m betting Glengarry as most remained Catholic like our Archibald. More soon hopefully. But no Cranachan, no Robert the Bruce and no Mary McKillop.
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Not sure if this is thread is still being read but I’ll update anyhow. As of 2021 we have been listed under McDonalds of Knoydart by the Clan Donald USA DNA Project. Which is Clanranald. &&4QIZ5 is the Clan Donald code.
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Hi Angus, I'm also a descendent of Archibald McDonald and Margaret Ross McDonald. My 4th Great Grandparents. Thank you for sharing the info of your fathers DNA result, the confirmation of the "no link" to the Cranachan line helps.
I have just arrived home from visiting Scotland and I had a cuppa in the Glenelg Pub/Tavern.
Cheers