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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Carmarthenshire Lookup Requests => Carmarthenshire => Wales => Carmarthenshire Completed Requests => Topic started by: lizzieliza on Saturday 10 October 09 15:53 BST (UK)

Title: COMPLETED Claud Butler of Fulham - with Carmarthenshire COMPLETED
Post by: lizzieliza on Saturday 10 October 09 15:53 BST (UK)
Hi there.
Could some please look up the Butler family for me please?
Claud was born in Fulham in July 1903. I have no idea as to names of siblings or parents. Would appreciate any help you can give.
Many thanks.
Liz
Title: Re: Claud Butler of Fulham
Post by: Tati on Saturday 10 October 09 16:00 BST (UK)
Hi Liz,

A Claud Butler born 14th July 1903 was christened 23 October 1904 at Immanuel Streatham, parents John Morgan Butler (Draper) and Mary Ethel, of 6 Waldemar Avenue Fulham Road. A brother Geoffrey Howard George Butler born 7th Mar 1902 was christened the same day.

If you search for Claud on the 1911 census index, I have a feeling you might find him as 'Clara' in Kingston district, Surrey.

 :)
Title: Re: Claud Butler of Fulham
Post by: Tati on Saturday 10 October 09 16:08 BST (UK)
A John Morgan Butler marries a Mary Ethel Wotton in March quarter 1901, West Ashford district 2a 1060.

I see a birth registration for a Mary Ethel Wotton in West Ashford in 1873. Let's see if we can find them together in 1901 ...

in the meantime, this looks like a good match for her in 1881:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0798/
RG11/946 76 1

(added: not sure where she's hiding in 1891 - the rest of the family is at RG12/699 78 1)
Title: Re: Claud Butler of Fulham
Post by: lizzieliza on Saturday 10 October 09 16:13 BST (UK)
Wow, Tati, what a quick response! I'm amazed  :)
Yes, you have the right Claud (famous cycle maker), I know he also had a sister, have no knowledge of her name though, only that she married a Fred Pratt.
I really appreciate the help you are giving me. Many many thanks.
Liz
Title: Re: Claud Butler of Fulham
Post by: Tati on Saturday 10 October 09 16:34 BST (UK)
Birth registration
Joan M Butler mother's maiden name Wotton
Dec 1911 Kingston 2a 742

(There's a marriage in 1932 to Frederick H Pratt, again in Kingston district)

This is a bit odd, mind, because the 1911 census already seems to show a sister Joan age 5 months.

Another possible sister:
Margaret C P Butler mother's maiden name Wotton
Dec 1912 Kingston 2a 758 


I'm not having any luck finding John and Mary in 1901 so far
Title: Re: Claud Butler of Fulham
Post by: lizzieliza on Saturday 10 October 09 16:45 BST (UK)
Hi Tati.
I have been trying to find Claud on the 1911 census, typing in the name Clara, as suggested, but with no luck! I have also tried putting in his fathers details which you kindly supplied, but still nothing. I tried to use the 1911 site when it first started, to find another relative, but again failed to turn up anything, and yet a cousin put in the exact same info and found the details she was looking for. really doesn't make sense to me?
Thank you for finding Joan.
Liz
Title: Re: Claud Butler of Fulham
Post by: Tati on Saturday 10 October 09 16:51 BST (UK)
When I do a search on John Morgan Butler, I get one and only one hit. Sorry, don't know why it doesn't work for you  :(   
Title: Re: Claud Butler of Fulham
Post by: lizzieliza on Saturday 10 October 09 18:14 BST (UK)
Have managed to get into the census at last!
Liz
Title: Re: Claud Butler of Fulham
Post by: Tati on Saturday 10 October 09 18:39 BST (UK)
Ah, good! In case you have an opportunity to view the actual details, let me know where it says John was born  :)
Title: Re: Claud Butler of Fulham
Post by: lizzieliza on Saturday 10 October 09 19:32 BST (UK)
Will do  :)
Title: Re: Claud Butler of Fulham
Post by: lizzieliza on Saturday 10 October 09 20:02 BST (UK)
Well, Tati, this is quite confusing! We have been looking at the original census for a while now. On the initial printout it states that John Morgan was born in Harwood S Wales. We have been searching google map etc, and there is no such place there. The only Harwood we can find is in New South Wales??
It's quite difficult to read the place name on original, definately S Wales though.
Also, on Original census, it clearly has Claud and not Clara as on the first print off.
Hope this makes sense?
Liz
Title: Re: Claud Butler of Fulham
Post by: Tati on Saturday 10 October 09 20:17 BST (UK)
Also, on Original census, it clearly has Claud and not Clara as on the first print off.
I'm not at all surprised!  :P

What a shame about the unclear birth place. I can't see a birth registration for John Morgan Butler at all, and no candidate on any census with a birth place similar to Harwood.

You could crop the part of the 1911 census image showing John's birth place and post a deciphering request on this board http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,425.0.html
Someone might just be able to recognise it!
Title: Re: Claud Butler of Fulham
Post by: Tati on Sunday 11 October 09 10:40 BST (UK)
OK, found them in 1901, in a boarding house  :D

1901
RG13/127 21 33
Hampstead, London
187 Sumatra Rd

John M Butler, boarder, mar, 30, Draper, b. Carmarthen Llanneda (I think)
Ethel M Butler, boarder, mar, 28, Draper, b. Kent Charing

Title: Re: Claud Butler of Fulham
Post by: Valda on Sunday 11 October 09 10:48 BST (UK)
Hi

1901 census RG13 127 folio 21
187 Samatra Road Hampstead
John M Butler 30 Boarder Married Draper Lla ? da Carmarthen
Ethel M Butler 28 Boarder Married Charing Kent

My census provider has indexed it as 'Slauneda' but I personally think it starts with a double Ll. The nearest I could get to it would be LLanedi?


I think you need some Welsh specialists to look at both images of his birthplace. I'd put them on the Carmarthenshire board. If you are not able to do that I can move this post to the Carmarthenshire board (or you could post the details on the Carmarthenshire board) and hopefully at least the 1901 census can be looked at for you by anyone that has access to it.

It might be on earlier censuses you are looking for a John Morgan?
Having the details from the marriage certificate would also be a help.


Regards

Valda
Title: Re: Claud Butler of Fulham
Post by: lizzieliza on Sunday 11 October 09 14:46 BST (UK)
Hi there.
I have tried to cut and paste a snippet from the 1911 census to post on the deciphering board, but having so many problems trying to bring this about. Last attempt prompted a message which read ' this message has already been posted'? I have searched but cannot find it!
Thank you Tati, for finding them in the boarding house.
Many thanks for all the help given.
Liz
Title: Re: Claud Butler of Fulham
Post by: Valda on Sunday 11 October 09 15:10 BST (UK)
Hi

Many Rootschatters have access to the 1901 census so I would suggest completing this post and starting a new post on the Carmarthenshire board giving all the details and see what is suggested there.


Regards

Valda
Title: Re: Claud Butler of Fulham
Post by: lizzieliza on Sunday 11 October 09 16:45 BST (UK)
Hi Valda.
Could you please move this posting to the Carmarthen site as offered in your previous reply, as if left to me it will probably end up in Scotland! :)
Thanks.
Liz
Title: Re: Claud Butler of Fulham
Post by: Tati on Monday 12 October 09 07:54 BST (UK)
Here's the 1901 image

Title: Re: Claud Butler of Fulham
Post by: osprey on Sunday 18 October 09 18:42 BST (UK)
the place name looks like it could be Llanwrda which was in Llandovery registration district at that time. But, very few Butler bmds in the district. There is a birth reg for Edith Constance D Butler in june qtr 1875, but also a death reg for her in march qtr 1881 in Cardiff registration district, so she doesn't appear on a census.

Agree with Valda -  the marriage cert with details of John's father should help your search.
Title: Re: Claud Butler of Fulham
Post by: lizzieliza on Monday 19 October 09 09:47 BST (UK)
Hi there.
Many thanks to you all for your help, very much appreciated.
Liz
Title: Re: Claud Butler of Fulham
Post by: lizzieliza on Saturday 07 November 09 12:48 GMT (UK)
Hi everyone.
I have finally got the marriage cert for Claud's father. details as follows :-

John Morgan Butler b. 1871 married Mary Wotton on 12.3.1901 in Ashford Kent.

It gives John's father as Martin Butler Profession=Gentleman

Now we know that John was born in Carmathen. I believe our link to Claud has to come from one of John's siblings.

Claud is on the 1901 census as living in London.

What I am desparate to find out is, who John's siblings/Parents were and whether they moved to London as a family?


Could someone please check census' for me to try and find john and his family in Carmarten? I really would appreciate your help.
Many thanks.
Liz
Title: Re: Claud Butler of Fulham
Post by: Tati on Saturday 07 November 09 17:45 GMT (UK)
Tricky one  :P

There's only one Martin Butler on the 1881 census for Wales, and he doesn't have a son John:
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1881wales&indiv=try&h=5407108

Still no John Morgan Butler born Carmarthenshire that I can see at all.

Who were the marriage witnesses - anyone called Morgan or Butler?
Title: Re: Claud Butler of Fulham
Post by: lizzieliza on Saturday 07 November 09 19:06 GMT (UK)
Hi Tati.

The witnesses were both from Mary Wottons family. No Morgans or Butlers.

This search is becoming a real headache! I have delved into every site I can think of, and there are so few Martin's, and none appear to be mine  ::) I did look at the BMD and found a Martin married in 1873 in Swansea, figuring he might have moved about a bit, I had someone offer to check it out. They said this Martin married either Hannah or Claudia Davies. So, I checked through census' thinking if I come across a son John I may be in with a chance. Can't find them at all!

He's surely got to be out there somewhere?

The other strange thing is, Claud Butler, who somehow links to our family, and the whole reason for this search, doesn't appear to be on anyones tree, and yet being the famous person he was, I felt sure someone would have claimed him as their ancestor?

I really appreciate you trying to help me out.
Many thanks.
Liz

Title: Re: Claud Butler of Fulham
Post by: Valda on Sunday 08 November 09 11:28 GMT (UK)
Hi

Once it gets this difficult you have to bring in the possibility of illegitimacy. Illegitimate people if they married where they were not known do not usually admit they are illegitimate on their marriage certificates. Their fathers are given the same surnames as themselves which might be the same anyway if they decided to use their father's surname when they became an adult or it might be different. If illegitimate it calls into question any details that are given about the father.
You have two surnames in the frame Butler and Morgan.

What age did John Morgan Butler give on his marriage. Was it consistent with the censuses?


Regards

Valda
Title: Re: Claud Butler of Fulham
Post by: lizzieliza on Sunday 08 November 09 11:57 GMT (UK)
Hi Valda.
Thank you for taking time to advise on this.
Yes, ages etc are consistant. John Morgan Butler was 30 yrs when married in 1901, the same age as on 1901 census. On 1911 census he is 39. a Draper. On his marriage cert his father is listed as Gentleman. Now, they were clearly a family of means, because Claud was very young when he started his cycle business etc.
Morgan is quite unusual for a middle name isn't it? Can't say I've come across it before.
I spent last night going through all the possible births covering a 7 years period, not one John Morgan!

I think I am now losing the plot ??? because the possibility that Martin, who married in Swansea in 1873 (again, who I can't find on census) could be the father of John Morgan Butler. Swansea comes under Glamorganshire, could this have something to do with the name??
Title: Re: Claud Butler of Fulham
Post by: osprey on Sunday 08 November 09 12:54 GMT (UK)
I've just searched on FreeBmd for all regsitrations with John Morgan as first names - there are 2493 of them - so not uncommon. It could be that Morgan was his birth surname and he added Butler later which could explain why he can't be found before the 1901 census.  Couple of possible John Morgan births registered Llandovery in the right period.

 :-\
Title: Re: Claud Butler of Fulham
Post by: Valda on Sunday 08 November 09 13:02 GMT (UK)
Hi

An illegitimate start in life does not preclude John from working hard and establishing himself as a draper if he had the business acumen. In consequence he would put his own son's life and prospects on a firm footing. Or Claud himself was the entrepreneur in the family.

There are 12 John Morgan birth registrations in Carmarthenshire between 1870 and 1871.

The Martin Butler marrying in the Swansea area in 1873 may very well have been Irish in origin and may not have remained in Wales.


Regards

Valda
Title: Re: Claud Butler of Fulham
Post by: lizzieliza on Sunday 08 November 09 13:02 GMT (UK)
Hi.
The couple of births you have found in LLandovery, does this district come under Carmarthenshire by any chance? and if so, could you post details please?
Thanks
Title: Re: Claud Butler of Fulham
Post by: Valda on Sunday 08 November 09 13:11 GMT (UK)
Hi

From FreeBMD

http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl

Births Mar 1869 MORGAN  John    Llandovery  11a 701   
Births Sep 1870  Morgan  John     Llandovery  11a 658

I wouldn't rule out adjacent registration districts

http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/cmn.htm

John Morgan is a common name so you can find on the censuses quite a few.


Regards

Valda


Title: Re: Claud Butler of Fulham
Post by: osprey on Sunday 08 November 09 13:36 GMT (UK)
I mentioned the ones in Llandovery as that registration district covered Llanwrda at the time, but there are plenty more John Morgan(s) in Carmarthenshire...
Title: Re: Claud Butler of Fulham
Post by: lizzieliza on Sunday 08 November 09 19:46 GMT (UK)
Thank you very much for taking the time to help me.

Sounds like I have a long haul in front of me  :-\

Liz

Title: Re: Claud Butler of Fulham
Post by: John Butler on Sunday 01 March 15 21:42 GMT (UK)
Hi there.
Many thanks to you all for your help, very much appreciated.
Liz

I am Claud Butler's son. John Morgan Butler was my grandfather therefore and I researched this information independently some years ago. My father's family was very poor. He built up his business from nothing. Claud's grandmother was Rachel Morgan of Llanwrda, she was illegitimate as she signed John Morgan's birth certificate with a cross. The father's name does not appear. I therefore believe it possible my grandfather, when he married, made up the name Martin Butler, a gentleman, or else he had been told this to cover up his illegitimacy. Rachel is unlikely to have brought him up and it is likely he had relatives across the valley who did this. He then moved to London as a draper,  like so many from west Wales at the time. I have a photo of him in London in the 1920s and plenty of family stories about him! My father never spoke of him, my mother though had some things to say about him. My sister, 10 years older than me, lives in the States and knew him as a child but knew nothing about his welsh origins. I wish I knew more about him. But I don't know who you are - do get in touch if you wish. I would love to hear from you.
Title: Re: COMPLETED Claud Butler of Fulham - with Carmarthenshire COMPLETED
Post by: John Butler on Monday 02 March 15 18:36 GMT (UK)
I could give you further details if you're still interested, as I am Claud's son. Best wishes, John Butler
Title: Re: Claud Butler of Fulham
Post by: John Butler on Saturday 14 March 15 22:06 GMT (UK)
Hi there.
Many thanks to you all for your help, very much appreciated.
Liz

I am Claud Butler's son. John Morgan Butler was my grandfather therefore and I researched this information independently some years ago. My father's family was very poor. He built up his business from nothing. Claud's grandmother was Rachel Morgan of Llanwrda, she was illiterate as she signed John Morgan's birth certificate with a cross. The father's name does not appear. I therefore believe it possible my grandfather, when he married, made up the name Martin Butler, a gentleman, or else he had been told this to cover up his illegitimacy. Rachel is unlikely to have brought him up and it is likely he had relatives across the valley who did this. He then moved to London as a draper,  like so many from west Wales at the time. I have a photo of him in London in the 1920s and plenty of family stories about him. My father never spoke of him, my mother though had some things to say about him. My sister, 10 years older than me, lives in the States and knew him as a child but knew nothing about his welsh origins. I wish I knew more about him. But I don't know who you are - do get in touch if you wish. I would love to hear from you.