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Census Lookups General Lookups => Census and Resource Discussion => Topic started by: Guy Etchells on Tuesday 10 November 09 14:48 GMT (UK)
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I have just received the Information Commissioner's decision with regards to my request for information recorded in the 1939 Registration.
The Information Commissioner has found partially in my favour.
This means that it is illegal for the NHS Information Centre to withhold any information taken under the 1939 Registration if that information relates to deceased persons.
Cheers
Guy
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What is the 1939 Registration?
Lizzie
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The 1939 Registration was the enumeration to enable the issue of ID cards, ration books etc. in event of the outbreak of war (Second World War).
The details enumerated were
1. Names.
2. Sex.
3. Age.
4. Occupation, profession, trade or employment.
5. Residence.
6. Condition as to marriage.
7. Membership of Naval, Military or Air Force Reserves or Auxiliary Forces or of Civil Defence Services or Reserves.
Some look on it as a census but it did not fall under the 1920 Census Act.
Cheers
Guy
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How can we get access to the information?
Luzzu
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Thanks Guy. Not sure I would need to use that as I have all the info about my close relatives from that period, but it might be useful for more distant relatives.
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Vdery interesting Guy, thanks very much. Woluld the onus be on the applicant to prove the person enquired about was dead, and as Luzzu says how do we access the information?
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Guy, Thank you for this very important piece of news and for all your efforts in making the 1911 census available to us a lot sooner.
Like the others I would be interested to learn how we will be able to access/ask for information?
thanks, Pauline.
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Hi Guy:
thank you for this important news, also may I say thank you for all your hard work on getting the 1911 census released early. I would be interesting in knowing how to apply for the information and would there be a cost for this.
Cheers
Anne
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I think some may have misunderstud about the National registration,sorry if i am wrong :-\
http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/census/census_page.jsp?yr=1939&show=DB
Celia
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AS with the 1911 Census things may now change quickly.
After my success with the 1911 FoI requests were soon replaced with a search service which was quite expensive, that service was then replaced with the online database.
The 1939 National Registration may follow a similar path or it may remain open to FoI requests.
At present one writes to the NHS Information Centre, 1 Trevelyan Square, Boar Lane, Leeds, LS1 6AE requesting information under the Freedom of Information Act 2000.
There may be a charge, possibly around £10 but that too is open to change, it may not cost anything.
I would suggest requesting information for an address rather than for an individual as details of more than one person may be given in that event.
I have already been contacted by a number of probate research companies (heir hunters) so there is a possibility that the database could be scanned for online use.
As you can imagine nothing is settled at the moment and things have a tendency to change quickly once they begin to happen.
Cheers
Guy
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Thanks for that Guy. The registration was taken at a Key time in my family history, so I am very hopeful. Will wait until things are a little settled though before I proceed.
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Well done Guy (again)!
:)
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Wow! this sounds like very exciting news!
Are they going to wonder what's hit them? ;D
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Thank you for your efforts and hard work.
:)
Luzzu
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Thanks Guy, you have done it again. I will wait a while and see how things unfold. This resource could prove invaluable to family historians.
Thanks
Kathb
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I wouldn't get too excited yet, according to Guys original post it only applies to the details of a deceased person and in order to identify the person to the NHS you would virtually have to know the address plus presumably you may have to prove that they are deceased. This could also apply to each member of the household.
Andy
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The NHS should know if a person is deceased.
I claimed information for an address not for an individual person.
If some people in the household are alive and others are deceased all the information on the deceased members would still have to be provided by the NHS.
I am still weighing up whether to appeal against the decision as I am of the opinion the Information Commissioner mis-directed himself on a number of points.
If what I believe is correct (and I would again take legal opinion on the subject before appealing, but there is a precedent) it would result in the details of all persons on the registration being revealed.
Likewise the NHS could appeal the decision.
Cheers
Guy
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Guy, thanks for this clarity. I too am aware that the NHS takes information from the local registrars to determine who has died and therefore remove them from their master databases.
For this reason I will be seriously considering making an application in the not to distant future on the address/es of some of my family.
Regards
Kathb
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Whilst what Guy says is undoubtedly true, I believe that the point raised by Andycand may well be valid. How many of us know the address where our immediate ancestors lived in 1939? This may well present some problems.
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Great stuff as ever Guy!
Just to add, I have clarified with the registrar general for Scotland the implications for the Scottish registration in 1939. The GROS holds the information, but has no plans to release it, as information in a deceased person's health record is apparently exempt under Section 38(1)(d) of the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002 (his words). The ICO decision is not binding on Scotland, though lessons may be taken from it. On the NHSIC, I believe its decision on whether to appeal is imminent.
Just to add, this would be a welcome release across the UK, but it is particularly significant down south where the 1931 census has not survived (unlike Scotland), and there was of course no 1941 census due to the war.
Not sure about the point about none of us knowing where our ancestors lived at that point! By 1939, most people were well recorded in street directories, electoral rolls and many other sources, so I'd say quite a lot of people will have a rough idea where to look. It will be interesting to see the NHSIC response.
Chris
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Chris, My parents married in 1939, and at the time of the registration, they and my grandmother were living in a flat. They moved to a permanent home the following year after I was born. Had I not complete information available as to where they were at the time I would have been looking in Cambridge for them, rather than Boston Lincs where they in fact were. I feel certain that largely as a result of the war there will be very many people who were not living where they were shown on either the electoral roll, or street directories. Remember too that many people mostly under 21 would not be on either the street directory or the electoral roll, if it has survived. These under 21s are now up to 90 years old, and many have certainly died in the meantime.
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Great stuff as ever Guy!
Just to add, I have clarified with the registrar general for Scotland the implications for the Scottish registration in 1939. The GROS holds the information, but has no plans to release it, as information in a deceased person's health record is apparently exempt under Section 38(1)(d) of the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002 (his words). The ICO decision is not binding on Scotland, though lessons may be taken from it. On the NHSIC, I believe its decision on whether to appeal is imminent.
Just to add, this would be a welcome release across the UK, but it is particularly significant down south where the 1931 census has not survived (unlike Scotland), and there was of course no 1941 census due to the war.
Not sure about the point about none of us knowing where our ancestors lived at that point! By 1939, most people were well recorded in street directories, electoral rolls and many other sources, so I'd say quite a lot of people will have a rough idea where to look. It will be interesting to see the NHSIC response.
Chris
That is good news then Chris.
The admission means it would be a comparatively easy task to obtain 1939 National Registration data in Scotland.
This is because even though the 1939 Registration was used to compile the NHS records it does not and has never legally formed part of a person's NHS record.
In addition it could be argued that the 1939 National Registration was unlawfully used to compile the NHS database as such use breaches the Data Protection Act.
Data collected may only be used for the purpose it was collected for.
Cheers
Guy
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Chris, My parents married in 1939, and at the time of the registration, they and my grandmother were living in a flat. They moved to a permanent home the following year after I was born. Had I not complete information available as to where they were at the time I would have been looking in Cambridge for them, rather than Boston Lincs where they in fact were. I feel certain that largely as a result of the war there will be very many people who were not living where they were shown on either the electoral roll, or street directories. Remember too that many people mostly under 21 would not be on either the street directory or the electoral roll, if it has survived. These under 21s are now up to 90 years old, and many have certainly died in the meantime.
I may have a very simple way to discover addresses, but will keep it close to my chest until I have had an official (legal) decision. ;)
Cheers
Guy
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Hi Guy,
We have the 1940 National Registration available to us in Canada. Here is a link to a thread I started in case you find anything interesting.
Karen
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,97590.0.html
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Well done you, on behalf of us all, great news!
Copperbeech5
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Hi Guy,
We have the 1940 National Registration available to us in Canada. Here is a link to a thread I started in case you find anything interesting.
Karen
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,97590.0.html
Well done Karen, expensive, yes, but every little bit of information helps to complete the bigger picture.
Thanks for posting the link.
Cheers
Guy
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I may have a very simple way to discover addresses, but will keep it close to my chest until I have had an official (legal) decision.
I look forward to you telling us how to do it. Do you mean all addresses or just addresses from around 1939?
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This news has reached the BBC website
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8363341.stm
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Thanks for that stonechat - interesting article.
Being relatively new to this genealogy lark and new to rootschat, I had no idea of the sterling work done by Guy. What a star! I've been having a high old time raiding the 1911 census and I see its all thanks to you.
A mighty big thank you from this novice.
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I may have a very simple way to discover addresses, but will keep it close to my chest until I have had an official (legal) decision.
I look forward to you telling us how to do it.
Yes, do please share it on here when you are able to Guy!
Thanks to your efforts with the 1911, I have been able to make major headway with my family research :)
Your efforts are greatly appreciated.
Romilly.
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An interesting development
I was only reading this thread the other day
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,403497.0.html
which highlighted the problems of releasing the data on the 1939 Civil Registration early.
I shall watch this with interest, and thank you for your efforts on this Guy.
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The NHSIC will be making a statement on its position, and any possible appeal, in the first week of December.
Chris
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We must hope there is no appeal lodged, as this would delay any release for at least the time it took for the appeal to be heard, and I don't suppose a case like this would be prioritised.
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In case anyone wants to read the Information Commissioner’s decision it is now on the ICO website at
http://www.ico.gov.uk/tools_and_resources/decision_notices.aspx
Case Ref: FS50248664
Date: 09/11/2009
Public Authority: NHS Information Centre
A blank schedule is available at
http://tinyurl.com/yge5wbd
Other interesting pages are also available there.
Cheers
Guy
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thanks for that link Guy, very interesting stuff!
Let's hope they don't drag this out by appealing!
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Nice work, Guy..Fingers crossed ;D ;D ;D
Milly
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Excellent work Guy!! :o The Joanna Lumley of RootsChat?? ;D
Were you at Woodstock earlier this year? Your picture in the BBC article looks familiar.
Paul
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Yes well done Guy.
Having looked at the blank form I presume that when the pages do finally get online I presume the FOR OFFICIAL USE column will be blanked out like it is on the 1911 census.
Jean
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Having looked at the blank form I presume that when the pages do finally get online I presume the FOR OFFICIAL USE column will be blanked out like it is on the 1911 census
I don't think that this will be online for quite some time if ever. The ruling only allows access to information of a person who is deceased. This would mean checking every individual (although you could make an asumption for people over a particular age in 1939) to see if they were deceased and only including the record of those who are. Guys original request under FOI was for the details of residents at a specific address. If the ruling stands as is then its likely that anyone wanting information in future would have to apply under FOI for either a specific address or a spedific individual assuming that you can positively identify that individual. It will also be interesting to see what (if any) cost there will be.
Andy
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Andy, the general release if any would I expect to be on 2 Jan 2040, probably too late for most of us. If the process does happen under the FOI, then I would expect that there will be a charge, may be a nice little earner for the authorities so long as they don't pitch it too high.
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this thread is probably not the place to ask but .....
I find it strange that the USA have later census releases than the UK, is there any particular reason for that?
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Yes; British censuses are generally closed for 100 years. US for I believe 70. To alter things here would require legislation, but in my opinion Why Not? America hasn't crumbled with a 70 closure on census data.
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I see. perhaps we should start a lobby? ;)
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Or an on-line petition to Number 10, and lobby all candidates at the next election to get their views and hopefully support.
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I'm up for it but I'm no good with wording ....
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I'll have a go then , but not today as away for most of this week. Have signed several, but never originated them, First time for everything I suppose.
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good man! I'm sure we can let's of people interested. it only takes a moment to register your vote, I also have signed previous petitions.
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The NHSIC will not be appealing against the decision by the Information Commissioner re: 1939, so expect info soon on how it plans to facilitate access...
Chris
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I wonder if we'll be able to access the address, rather than just one person at an address? I said before that I knew all about my ancestors and what was happening in 1939, but I'd forgotten my aunt who was living with a married man. I'd like some more info on him if possible, although I guess the name on the 1939 register would be the same as he was known as rather than his correct name.
Guy - what info is on the register? Does it give age, place of birth etc, or just occupations?
Lizzie
ps. Although I can hardly remember what I did last week, I can remember the address my aunt and uncle lived at from about 1939 to late 1940s. ::)
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Lizzie,
Guy posted a link to a blank page of the registration document a page ago I think? here's the link
http://tinyurl.com/yge5wbd
interesting...
newbie
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I just missed out on this one (b Jan 1940), but I can remember the furore c1943 when my mother lost the ration books and her identity cards etc. in Emery Lane Boston. If anyone finds them even now please return them to me.
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It is not entirely true that if you were born after the registration that you missed out.
If I remember correctly everyone who registered was allocated a number based on the town, street and house number. Anyone born after the registration was allocated the next number for the house. These numbers were used as national health numbers for at least acouple of decades.
I am not sure what happened when people moved etc., but I do know that I (born 1940) and my brother (born 1945) had numbers sequential from my parents. There is a huge potential for finding out more information about family history from the original registration and subsequent NHS registration numbers.
If you have an old NHS card for any of your relatives hang onto it as it could be the source of a gold mine.
We will also have to determine the precise rules by which the numbers were allocated as I am recalling very distant memories.
David
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Thanks David, I do have what I believe to be my original NHS card, so watch this space!
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Do we just have to wait now to see what happens, or can we start asking for the info?
All we need is an address, yes? ???
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The NHS are working on a solution at present.
In the mean time here is an idea of what one might expect at present.
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~framland/census/1939NatReg.htm
I hope digital copies will be supplied at a later date.
Cheers
Guy
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That's fantastic Guy. Thanks for sharing :)
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Guy posted a link to a blank page of the registration document a page ago I think? here's the link
http://tinyurl.com/yge5wbd
Newbie - I can't access tinyurls from my laptop for some reason. I don't know what is blocking it. However, I looked at the link Guy posted at 19.43.08 tonight and that looks quite promising, but I had hoped it might give place of birth as well as age.
Lizzie
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Here is the full url, you may have to copy and paste each line.
Cheers
Guy
http://www.histpop.org/ohpr/servlet/PageBrowser2?ResourceType=Census&ResourceType=Legislation&ResourceType=Essays&ResourceType=Registrar%20General&ResourceType=TNA&SearchTerms=National%20registration&simple=yes&path=Results&active=yes&treestate=expandnew&titlepos=0&mno=3811&tocstate=expandnew&display=sections&display=tables&display=pagetitles&pageseq=60
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Thanks Guy. I just clicked once on the full url, and the appropriate web page opened.
I'm pleased to see that full date of birth is asked for, that will help narrow down a little my uncle's birth, hopefully the Christian name I knew him by was his correct name. (As I said earlier, he was a married man when he and my aunt set up home together, using one of her family names). When a little girl, I used to stay with my aunt and uncle and I really loved him and would like to find out more about him.
Lizzie
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Just checked my registration card, I assume the forms will have the same information. It was issued in 1943, 17 days after my birth, it records a move to relatives in September 1944 (as does my mothers), another change of address when we returned home in December 1944 and a change of address when we moved house in 1948. They may have recorded changes of address until the early 1950s
Robert
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I would guess Robbo that changes in address were recorded while rationing of food and clothing were in force.
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Robert,
Would you mind revealing the format of the number on that card. Is it:
Up to five letters
Up to four digits
A decimal point
The number that you are in the family where father was .1 mother .2 and then the children in order.
What I would really like to know is whether children born after their parents had moved retained their parents reference or became part of a seperate reference.
I know that by about 1960 new NHS reference numbers seem to be GP dependent.
David
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I've got my identity card, which I found whilst clearing my mother's things after her death, also hers and my brother's.
As we didn't move anywhere, it just shows our address at the time the cards were issued, and as I lived there until I was 12+, there were no changes on the form.
Lizzie
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Robert,
Would you mind revealing the format of the number on that card. Is it:
Up to five letters
Up to four digits
A decimal point
The number that you are in the family where father was .1 mother .2 and then the children in order.
What I would really like to know is whether children born after their parents had moved retained their parents reference or became part of a seperate reference.
David
Hi David,
I don't know that the numbers followed the supposed pattern. My parents married in 1940 and I assume retained their original issued numbers as part of their parents households, my number bears no relationship to either. Curiously all three have the same registration date in May 1943
Father: BQCL 6:5
Mother: BQCJ 60:3
Mine: BBIG 72:
The same numbers appear on clothing ration books but not as far as I can see on food ration books
Robert
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Testing my theory that would mean that you were the first child of your parents born while they were living at that address having previously been registered elswhere.
Your father was the third eldest child living with his parents in 1939 while your mother was the eldest living with hers. I am not sure how any other relatives would affect this theory. For instance elder siblings could perhaps be replaced by grandparents or aunts.
That leads to my next query. Did your mother and father live two streets away from each other in 1939? I understand if you don't want to answer but what I am trying to determine is haw much genealogical information is buried in these reference numbers.
David
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Hi,
Hope you don't mind if I join in but I have a couple of National Registration Identity Cards - a green one and a beige one - not sure why they are different colours unless they had green ones for adults and beige for children.
I believe they are for my grandmother and mother. The numbers are NJII60:2 and NJII60:4. The green one has 3 addresses and 3 date stamps 1943, 1944 and 1951 and the beige one has 2 addresses and 2 date stamps 1940 and 1951.
I also have a Declaration of Identity by an Applicant for a Green Identity Card for the purposes of the National Registration 1939.
It says that it is an application for a Green Registration Card (with Holder's Description) in substitution for the Identity Card surrendered herewith.
It is the original form and has been completed by by grandfather NJ1160:1 and has a declaration by a doctor of medicine.
What I don't understand is when you apply for something like this you have to give the form in so I don't know why I have got it.
Luzzu
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Hi Luzzu,
You have just introduced a new piece of potential genealogy. As you asked what was the difference between green and beige identity cards?
Was your mother the second child?
David
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Hi David,
Right on everything except their living two streets apart, at a rough guess until I can find a street map a couple of miles and quite a few urban streets.
Mine would seem to confirm green for adults and buff for children.
Robert
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I was only guessing how the letter sequence might have been allocated and so we need a new theory (or some real knowledge) on that.
I have fear that it might be from doctor's lists rather than streets but I can't square that with this all happening before the NHS was formed.
David
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David,
Peple were still registered with doctors pre NHS & I have odd prewar medical cards of my parents issued by insurance companies or County Insurance Committees naming the doctor on whose list they were. Still need to check the street locations on a map though.
Robert
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As a result of some checking.
The four letter code seems to have been associated with an area rather than a street.
The colours of the cards were the same brown (buff) colour for all until 1943 when they changed to blue for adults. From the pictures that I have found the blue appears to be very faint.
Government officials had a green card with a photograph.
David
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The actual colours and format of the cards seem to have even more variants.
There was a blue card with a photograph which seems to have been issued to various groups of people including those working for local utilities, air training corp etc.
There also seems to have been a buff (or perhap pink) card with a photograph which was issued to the police and associated reserve occupations.
Each of these presumably had their own application form containing different details.
David
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Looking at an adult card, it still seems to be green to me, with a blue floral "security" pattern inside a black border printed on the front and blue security printing (NATIONAL REGISTRATION IDENTITY CARD in very small print repeated continually across the surface of the card) on the inside.
Is it possible that the letter codes cover streets in alphabetic order within some administrative division or that they represent an administrative division such as an electoral ward?
Robert
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Looking at an adult card, it still seems to be green to me, with a blue floral "security" pattern inside a black border printed on the front and blue security printing (NATIONAL REGISTRATION IDENTITY CARD in very small print repeated continually across the surface of the card) on the inside.
Yes that matches exactly the description of my grandmother's card. Last night I thought it looked green but in daylight you could say it is blue ::).
The buff card is plain - no floral pattern and no blue security printing inside.
Was your mother the second child?
Yes she was the second child.
I also have a Declaration of Identity by an Applicant for a Green Identity Card for the purposes of the National Registration 1939.
It says that it is an application for a Green Registration Card (with Holder's Description) in substitution for the Identity Card surrendered herewith.
It is the original form and has been completed by by grandfather NJ1160:1 and has a declaration by a doctor of medicine.
What I don't understand is when you apply for something like this you have to give the form in so I don't know why I have got it.
I have just been having another read at this application form. It requires 2 passport type photographs - full face, no hat - and on the declaration it says "that I am not registered as an Alien under the Aliens Order and that I am not in possession of a valid passport.
I am fairly certain my grandparents didn't have passports as I know they never went overseas.
I will try and scan bits of the form later to miss out my granddad's details and post it.
I don't know why he filled the form but didn't submit it.
Luzzu
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Here the the back and front of the green/blue ID card.
Does anyone know whay the octagonal stamps with the crown in are for. Both this one and the buff one seem to have been stamped several times with them.
Luzzu
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And the form for the "Green Identity Card (with Holder's description).
The details required on the 2nd half of the first page which I have covered are:-
Surname
Surname at birth (if different)
Other names
Full postal address of present residence
Place of birth (town, parish, country)
Date of birth
National registration ID number
Occupation
State where resident (full postal address) on National Registration Day,
29 September 1939
Luzzu
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I wonder if the cards were stamped when they issued Ration Books, so people couldn't get more than one at a time. My registration card has those stamps on too and M F stands for Ministry of Food.
Lizzie
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I wonder if the cards were stamped when they issued Ration Books, so people couldn't get more than one at a time. My registration card has those stamps on too and M F stands for Ministry of Food.
Didn't know MF stood for Ministry of Food but now I know it does, it makes a lot of sense that the stamps are related to the issue of ration books.
Luzzu
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I have just received an interesting email from National Health Service Information Centre (NHS IC).
I made another request for information from the NHS Central Register, http://tinyurl.com/yff6kbk not from the 1939 National Registration.
The request was for information about someone I knew had died in 1998.
In their reply to me the NHS IC gave me details of the person from the 1939 National Registration but omitted the address they were at in 1939.
I intend to email back to attempt to get the address also.
If successful it means requests for information under the 1939 may be obtained even if an address is not known.
Cheers
Guy
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More interesting than ever Guy.
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If successful it means requests for information under the 1939 may be obtained even if an address is not known.
Cheers
Guy
I know with the Canadian National Registration it says that you had to have the address however when I called the lady said, "well as long as you know the Town we can find it"
Karen
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Probably OK for a state where there were no really large megacities, but a city the size of London (say) could cause problems.
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I look forward to this being released. The 1939 registration is a sort of substitute to the 1941 census which was never taken due to the war. It is a pity the 1921 census cannot be released as it falls under the 1920 100 year closure rule.
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MAJOR news for those wanting access to the Scottish 1939 returns - see www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,428943.0.html
Chris
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I came across a letter in a family history magazine the other day where the person involved had been sorting out a problem with their pension. They were asked for their National Insurance Number but couldn't remember it. However they volunteered that they remembered their old registration number. This was sufficient to locate their details on the computer.
David
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i may have missed the answer to this somewhere & if I have I apologise.
Does anyone know exactly what DATE this was done?
I do have a good reason for asking :) - my mum was born in 1939 - so depending on exactly when it was done I may find her on it.
LOL Could be more fun to let someone else in the family try & find my pregnant granny or newborn mum tho ............ Nana was evacuated from Manchester to Blackpool to give birth in a converted hotel - mums birth cert states the name of the hotel AND the hospital on it! Dont think anyone else knows mum wasnt born in Manchester like the rest of the family, might be fun letting them work it out!
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Deleted
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i may have missed the answer to this somewhere & if I have I apologise.
Does anyone know exactly what DATE this was done?
I do have a good reason for asking :) - my mum was born in 1939 - so depending on exactly when it was done I may find her on it.
National Registration 1939 29/30th Sept
Dates of this and other census on my census webpages at
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~framland/census/censusindex.htm
Cheers
Guy
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Both I and my brother were born after 1939 and were certainly allocated numbers although whether we had actual cards I am not sure.
David
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My recollection such as it is from one born in 1940 is that everyone, including babies had Identity Cards, and Ration Books. Ours were lost at some stage during the war, I justabout remember it as I lost a toy monkey in the same incident from my pushchair, whether lost or stolen I don't know. I also remember that we needed an affidavit from a police sergeant or above to get new documents.
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From the 1911 website page on 1939 (www.1911census.org.uk/1939.htm), the following: Initially, adult identity cards were brown, the same colour as children's cards, but in 1943 a blue card was introduced for adults.
Chris
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I lost a toy monkey in the same incident from my pushchair, whether lost or stolen I don't know.
Those pesky Nazis had a lot to answer for...! lol ;D
Chris
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My 1939 Scottish national register entries have arrived! I ordered the record of my great grandmother and my great uncle. All I needed was a date of death to order them - see http://scottishancestry.blogspot.com/2010/01/1939-scottish-national-registers-my.html
Chris
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Lucky you Chris!
Is there any more news on the England release Guy?
thanks,
pauline
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Nothing I can write about on list.
I have been informed of some developments, but I am not at liberty to make them public.
Cheers
Guy
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I never saw Heinrich Himmler playing with my monkey on newsreels. Remember "Himmler had something simmler etc.etc."
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Has anyone on Roots, other than Guy, got further than the acknowledgement emails regarding a UK 1939 information request?
I made an application last week for details of residents at an address, amused me that they addressed me by my first name without my surname in their second email - friends already, LOL!
Selina
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Has anyone on Roots, other than Guy, got further than the acknowledgement emails regarding a UK 1939 information request?
Errr yes, I have - see above. Scotland is in the UK.
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Very sorry about that!! I meant England.
I actually thought about it and then put the wrong thing!
Selina
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I have not read all of this thread, so apologies if it has already been covered.
I fail to see how people can expect to receive details from all residents at an address. As to give that information for a living person would breach their rights to privacy; and you cannot very well ask a question along the lines of '...please provide details of all people at this address who are no longer living.".
Ken
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Have a read of Reply No. 9 and a look at the link on Reply No. 54.
I am hoping to receive similar information when mine is dealt with.
Selina
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I have not read all of this thread, so apologies if it has already been covered.
I fail to see how people can expect to receive details from all residents at an address. As to give that information for a living person would breach their rights to privacy; and you cannot very well ask a question along the lines of '...please provide details of all people at this address who are no longer living.".
Ken
Scottish returns are for an individual only, searchable by date of death. I believe Guy was able to get info on all at the address he requested.
Chris
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I have not read all of this thread, so apologies if it has already been covered.
I fail to see how people can expect to receive details from all residents at an address. As to give that information for a living person would breach their rights to privacy; and you cannot very well ask a question along the lines of '...please provide details of all people at this address who are no longer living.".
Ken
Far easier just to write-
I wish to request under the Freedom of Information Act details of the residents
of XX Street, X town from the 1939 National Registration.
The NHS-IC have a database that tells them whether the people are alive or dead.
If they are alive the NHS-IC will redact their information, If they are dead the NHS-IC will release the information.
Why make things difficult?
There will be a number of people who slip through the net such as those who emigrated, very occasionally it may be necessary to supply further details (perhaps details of their death).
When dealing with civil servants never volunteer more information than necessary.
Cheers
Guy
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I've spoken to NHSIC today, which will be announcing fairly soon how it plans to provide a better facility to gain access (in a matter of weeks).
Re: Northern Ireland. The records are held at PRONI, and they have confirmed they are watching proceedings here on the mainland. Any prospective release in NI will likely be delayed due to the massive move by PRONI later this year, when the archive will be closed for nine months. But they are looking into it.
Chris
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Excellent news, thanks for keeping us informed :)
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I would advise everyone to get their requests in now while it is still free.
When there is a system in place there will be a charge.
Cheers
Guy
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can you email a request or is a letter better?
edit: thanks I have just seen Guy's earlier post with details of how to apply.
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Where would I write to or e-mail to? As I would like to get information on my family.
Cheers
Anne
P.S. I have just found my dad`s card can;t find mum`s yet
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I have had a positive reply to my email and I should be getting some info via email within 20 days. No cost unless over £450.
enquiries[at]ic.nhs.uk
Thanks Guy :)
Moderator Comment: e-mail edited, to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please replace [at] with @
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I can't see a moderator for this forum so will post my comments here.
I have had a positive reply to my email and I should be getting some info via email within 20 days. No cost unless over £450.
enquiries[at]ic.nhs.uk
Thanks Guy :)
Moderator Comment: e-mail edited, to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please replace [at] with @
Again we have a moderator interfering with a perfectly acceptable posting.
The contact address enquiries@ic.nhs.uk is already displayed on the NHS IC website. To insist on replacing the @ with [at] on Rootschat is in my opinion does nothing but bring Rootchat into disrepute.
I would also point out spammers have softawre that automatically changes at (at) "at" [at] and many other combinations into at.
Please use a little common sense when censoring posts.
Cheers
Guy
Moderator comment: them's the rules, please abide by them - abuse of this rule means that spam is produced which can be identified to the Rootschat website and we get the blame - or so I'm told. The rules are there for a reason and they cause no problems, since they are explained when the modification takes place. Thanks for your future cooperation.
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Cheers Guy - have just lodged an application for an address in St Albans - fingers crossed!
Chris
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Statement from PRONI re: Northern Ireland and 1939 - http://scottishancestry.blogspot.com/2010/01/1939-national-register-northern-ireland.html
Chris
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I have already applied for the 1939 registration of my 2xgreat grandparents William and Kate Coombs in London. I applied about 6 or 7 days ago.
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I would advise everyone to get their requests in now while it is still free.
When there is a system in place there will be a charge.
Cheers
Guy
Good shout Guy - I made an application yesterday for an address in St Albans, and got the same e-mail this morning from the NHSIC - very clear and concise!
Chris
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I want to apply for details of an aunt and uncle. I know the name of the road they lived in and the city, but not the number of the house. Will I get a response if I quote their surname and the address as I remember it, or do I need to provide more info? I do have the date of birth of my aunt, but it is my uncle I'm really interested in.
Lizzie
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Can anyone remember which side of London Road Boston was odd numbers? Was it the one with the Co-op later Borrill's bakery and Kitchen's seed merchants etc.? Need the number to make an application for my parents at the flat above the Co-op as it was in 1939. Thanks.
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Usually houses on existing roads are numbered away from the main road or the centre of town with odd numbers on the left. On new roads it will be from the end where building started which usually has the same effect.
David
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Please can someone tell me how to apply for information and can you what information they need. In a lot of cases I know the names of people and whereabouts they lived but not the exact addresses.
If I could get information on some of my relatives then it might help me a great deal.
Christine
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I've just bitten the bullet and e-mailed the Public Record Office of Northern Ireland for information concerning an address in Belfast in 1939 via the FOI Act. Will let you know how I get on...
Chris
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Behindthe frogs, That is the problem, if my memory is correct then London Road Boston is numbered wrongly, with the odd side being the RHS going out of town. Might be something to do with the fact that at its beginning it is one sided with the river Witham on the left for the first half mile. This may be the cause of the wrong side numbering if my memory is right.
Would welcome confirmation before I apply.
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Christine,
if you look back to p7 Guy made this reply to a question from Ken which explains -
I fail to see how people can expect to receive details from all residents at an address. As to give that information for a living person would breach their rights to privacy; and you cannot very well ask a question along the lines of '...please provide details of all people at this address who are no longer living.".
Ken
Far easier just to write-
I wish to request under the Freedom of Information Act details of the residents
of XX Street, X town from the 1939 National Registration.
The NHS-IC have a database that tells them whether the people are alive or dead.
If they are alive the NHS-IC will redact their information, If they are dead the NHS-IC will release the information.
Why make things difficult?
There will be a number of people who slip through the net such as those who emigrated, very occasionally it may be necessary to supply further details (perhaps details of their death).
When dealing with civil servants never volunteer more information than necessary.
Cheers
Guy
So I just applied asking for the information under the Act relating to
Name of person XXY, born xxyy died xxxyyy. giving details of GRO reference for the death.
does that help?
Pauline
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Well I sent a request but didn't get a "positive" response. I had 2 replies, one stating
Your enquiry has been logged and we will do our best to resolve this as soon as possible.
and another one sent a minute later which stated Your request is currently being considered. If The Information Centre is able to provide you with the information you have requested, then under the Freedom of Information Act you are entitled to receive it within 20 working days. We may need to contact you to clarify your request.
I wonder what the problem is with my request. Both the people who lived at the address I quoted are dead and they didn't have any offspring, so along with some cousins, I must be the next of kin (my aunt if still alive would be 112, so obviously her parents are deceased too, and the last of her siblings to die was my mum who died in 2007.
Lizzie
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Lizzie, I received two replies too.
The first is an acknowledgement of your email, the second a more detailed (but probably automated) reply. So don't worry I'm sure they have it in hand. :)
Pauline
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Well I sent a request but didn't get a "positive" response. I had 2 replies, one stating Your enquiry has been logged and we will do our best to resolve this as soon as possible.
and another one sent a minute later which stated Your request is currently being considered. If The Information Centre is able to provide you with the information you have requested, then under the Freedom of Information Act you are entitled to receive it within 20 working days. We may need to contact you to clarify your request.
I wonder what the problem is with my request. Both the people who lived at the address I quoted are dead and they didn't have any offspring, so along with some cousins, I must be the next of kin (my aunt if still alive would be 112, so obviously her parents are deceased too, and the last of her siblings to die was my mum who died in 2007.
Lizzie
They are exactly the same as the replies I got
Rosie
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Everyone seems to get the same two and they are followed by a third part of which states "it has been necessary to assign this to our second line of support for further investigation".
This apparently just means that it has been passed to an actual person to be dealt with.
Selina
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Deleted
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maybe its me but that's what I call a positive response! :)
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Yes I think it is positive and nice to be kept informed that the query has moved along another step but some people were a little concerned that it sounded as if there was a problem.
Selina
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Oh that's good then. I'll await their next e-mail with interest.
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Hi
I submitted a request on the 20th December and recieved a number of 'holding' responses (about 1 every week), and then yesterday recieved what I'd asked for.
The response was mostly as I'd expected and persons, who I knew lived at the address, but are still alive were not mentioned.
Their policy is to respond within 20 working days from the date of the orignal request, mine took 19 working days for a response, so it will take time.
They also pointed out that it took them 14 hours work to process my request.
As an NHS employee myself, and the financial pressures the NHS is currently making I wonder how long it will be before requests take even longer to process as demand increases.
Marc
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As an NHS employee myself, and the financial pressures the NHS is currently making I wonder how long it will be before requests take even longer to process as demand increases.
Clearly this is a case for outsourcing the provision of access to the records. It's not the same in Scotland - the GRO has the records here; nor in Ulster - PRONI holds them. Perhaps a case for depositing the original English and Welsh register at the National Archives?
Chris
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The problem is that the registration details form part of a persons national health records and so it is probably not just a simple matter of depositing the original registration in the archives. Even that is complicated by the ongoing registrations and changes in details in later years.
This is thus not the same as or as simple as a one off BMD registration or census entry.
David
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A problem indeed, and yet one which both Scotland and Northern Ireland seem to have a solution for, where the same situation applies. The GROS in Scotland digitised the records for the NHS, so has the records (not sure who has the original and who has the copy, but I suspect GROS has the original). PRONI has the originals, which have not been digitised.
Chris
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Hi Chris
I seem to recall reading recently that the 1939 Registration documentation is at the Smedley Hydro Southport, the same location as the GRO, so its not the location that creates a problem its the time spent linking a death with the 1939 information. Even in Scotland they would have to track through records to locate the 1939 address for a deceased person and the time it took could well depend upon whether the record is computerised or not, delving through archives for a file is quite time consuming.
England & Wales is different to Scotland in that you seem to be able to apply for a specific address which means that in Marc's case the 14 hours was for multiple people that they had to track the other way, to see if they were deceased or not.
Andy
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England & Wales is different to Scotland in that you seem to be able to apply for a specific address which means that in Marc's case the 14 hours was for multiple people that they had to track the other way, to see if they were deceased or not.
That is a fair point, though I think my answer was more in relation to the fact that this is a drain on NHS resources. It need not be if responsibility for access on genealogical grounds was passed to an agency far better suited to dealing with it - which may well be the case, with an announcement apparently due imminently. Scotland has been able to get this up and running quickly due to the fact that two agencies have access to the information - the NHS and the GROS. It's not a burden on the NHS or the taxpayer here also, due to the £13 fee. Of course, that's only per person, and not per household - I suspect it would be more if searches were carried out by address, but the point is that the system here is not a drain on the NHS.
Chris
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Is there no way to search per address for Scotland? :(
I would be willing to pay more, it would be worth it...
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At present the policy is to apply for a person's information by date of death only. I think it is because they can check this easily with the GROS death indexes (and GROEW), indexed by name not address. That's not to say you could not try an approach asking for information specifically by address, perhaps through an FOI application to the GROS with that specifically stated. The worst they can say is no! :)
Chris
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latest email
"Further to your recent enquiry 'Request for information' received on 18/01/2010 10:05, it has been necessary to assign this to our second line of support for further investigation.
Thank you for your patience and we will endeavour to keep you informed of the status of your enquiry."
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latest email
"Further to your recent enquiry 'Request for information' received on 18/01/2010 10:05, it has been necessary to assign this to our second line of support for further investigation.
Thank you for your patience and we will endeavour to keep you informed of the status of your enquiry."
This just means that a human being is now dealing with it! :)
Chris
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Parmesan
Hopefully I'll get a similar e-mail in a couple of days. I put in my request 2 days after you did.
Lizzie
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Hurrah just received my "second line of support e-mail" ;D
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;D
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Lizzie - you prob still have at least one more to go yet before getting the information.
I just got 4th (my request was received by them 11 Jan) thanking me for patience etc and saying it has been "escalated to our specialist team".
Have to give them credit for communication.
Selina
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Thanks Selina ???
Guess it means too many Rootschatters putting in requests to them.
Lizzie
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I have had the same as Selina. I anxiously await the info from them. They really have a big bush to beat around they do.
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I'm just hoping that (a) they identify the address OK and the people living there turn out to be the right ones.
Its a correct address but a bit in the 'sticks'!
If not it will be back to trying by name and waiting again.
Selina
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I gave their names and addresses at the time in 1939. This was in London.
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I used just the address as I am not certain who in the family were living there in September 1939 so hoped that way to pick up all in residence, providing they are all deceased now of course.
Selina
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I gave just the address and let THEM tell me who was living there ;)
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I gave the address, although I wasn't sure of the number of the house, plus the names of the two occupants and the date of death of the one (my aunt) who died most recently, i.e. in the 1990s. It is her "husband" I'm most interested in. They weren't married, although they would have said they were on forms. I have very fond memories of both of them, I used to stay with them where I was treated as an only child, taken out on trips etc. whereas at home, mum had a shop and I had a younger brother, so there was less, what is today called quality time with my parents. I'd just like to find out a little of his background.
Lizzie
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I hope I dont get turned down.
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They sound like very nice people Lizzie.
If my initial request is successful I doubt I shall need to apply for any more, I can only think of one other person that I would like to know about but don't have enough information on her to make an application.
Selina
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Coombs - it sounds as though you gave them plenty of information to work with so can't see why you would not get a result.
Hopefully by next week we shall have found out one way or another!
Selina
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Thanks
I dont feel the need to apply for anymore as yet. I hope it comes online soon anyway. Even if I have to pay by then I will want to find my others. The ones in London in 1939 are my great, great grandparents who were 79 and 75 by September 1939 and they died in 1943 and 1947.
Ben
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I expect once it gets online, is publicised and the application method is more formalised they will received a huge response.
I think a lot of us were hesitant in the first place mainly by not knowing exactly how to word our requests.
Selina
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Yes I think it will receive a huge response. It may be like the 1901 census release all over again when the site crashes.
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I still don't know the address my parents were living at for certain. I know it was London Road Boston, a flat over a Co-op shop, number 50 something.
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can't you ask for a name then and just 'London Rd' - see what response you get?
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Thanks, worth a try, or possibly since I have it down to two numbers ask for both.
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Brace yourselves - the NHSIC is now charging £42 per look up. See http://scottishancestry.blogspot.com/2010/02/1939-england-and-wales-new-service-at.html
Ouch. No idea if this applies to applications already underway, but looks like the days of freebies are now over.
Chris
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I can't see them charging retrospectively, well I hope not! :o
I had another email update this morning.
edit: I don't think they could charge anyone who has had the email with this paragraph
"The Information Centre will not normally charge a fee to provide you with the information you have requested, unless the cost of dealing with your request is more than £450. If it appears likely that your request will cost more, I will write to you again asking if you are willing to pay the fees incurred, clearly setting out what those fees will be (in accordance with the Freedom of Information Act)."
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Hopefully this is only an interim service (similar to the 1911 interim service) until an online service can be put in place.
I did envisage this would happen and it was obvious the charge would be similar to that charged for the 1911 before it came online.
I would now advise all to wait (if they can) until the online database is up and running.
Cheers
Guy
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Hi Guy, I'm afraid my info on that is slightly more pessimistic. From an e-mail correspondence with the press office at NHSIC:
"As far as I am aware this is the definitive method (i.e. for access to 1939 information). I am not aware of any plans to work with a commercial partner to make the data accessible by other means."
Could be keeping their cards close to their chest though...?
Chris
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I have just received another email saying they are still dealing with my request.
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I got email No. 5 today too. We are being processed together coombs, I wonder if we shall received the information on the same day.
As there is no mention of a charge in this last communication I think that applications in the pipeline will be dealt with for free, otherwise they would have asked for the money up front as they are doing for new requests.
Selina
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Hi Selina
They really are beating around the bush with a huge stick.
Ben
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well we're supposed to get the info within 20 days ::)
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As it is 20 'working' days I should get mine on or before Monday 8th February so not too much longer!
Selina
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Hi Guy, I'm afraid my info on that is slightly more pessimistic. From an e-mail correspondence with the press office at NHSIC:
"As far as I am aware this is the definitive method (i.e. for access to 1939 information). I am not aware of any plans to work with a commercial partner to make the data accessible by other means."
Could be keeping their cards close to their chest though...?
Chris
;) Watch this space ;)
Cheers
Guy
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You haven't nicked the register have you?! ;D
Chris
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Pleased you said that Guy, I want the info, had not had chance to put request together due to a variety of reasons, but was not prepared to pay that for it, as I know the three individuals concerned it would just be details I was looking for.
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As it is 20 'working' days I should get mine on or before Monday 8th February so not too much longer!
Selina
think my first lot should be due on 15 Feb then
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think my first lot should be due on 15 Feb then
And I'm a couple of days behind but haven't worked out whether that was working days or just days. ;D
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I sent my request on 18 January - not heard a dicky bird since :(
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I sent mine on 18th and I've had 3 emails so far.
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I sent mine on 18th and I've had 3 emails so far.
Hmmmm Perhaps that's where I went wrong - I sent mine by post ::)
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aah! yes I was going to do that, then realising I'm an impatient so and so I thought I'd try email with a nothing ventured nothing gained philosophy! ;)
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I anxiously await my results for my family in London.
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My result has arrived! Or rather not - they are not able to locate the data based on the information I provided.
It was a country address but was correct and definitely correct at the time of the 1939 National Registration.
Looking on the bright side I have not paid £42 to find that out! Now hoping my friends (and other RootsChatters) have better success.
Selina
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how disappointing :(
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This does possibly raise the point that if Selina goes back to them with further information will she now be charged £42?
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It does say that if I am not satisfied I can request a review. I assume that would be a review of the accuracy of the initial search on the information I supplied. They do not mention a charge.
However if I were to submit extra information I think it would probably constitute a new search and would be subject to the fee.
Selina
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Might be worth a try as you are sure of the validity of the information you gave.
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HOORAY
National Registration No ASLH 122/2
Name Mary A C COOMBS
DOB 31/12/1864
Address 99 St Pancras Way
Marital Status Married
Occupation Unpaid Domestic Duties
Although her date of birth is a year out. She was born 31 December 1863. 31 December 1864 was her first birthday.
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lucky you, I haven't heard yet
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I think Unpaid Domestic Duties means housewife.
I would like to know if we can view the original card image when they go online?
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That would be good, so long as it doesn't cost £42
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I hope we dont have to pay £42.
Mary A C Coombs died in September 1943 just months short of her 80th birthday. Maybe as she got older she thought she was a year younger than she actually was.
Ben
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If I remember correctly there is a ratio that people of advanced years add a year on their age every five years.
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I'm hoping that as I asked about 3 addresses in my first email, its the reason its taking longer.
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Mine appeared to take a year off or she was mistaken as they still didn't do any checks I dont think.
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In the situation that Britain found itself in September 1939 I would imagine the last thing that would be done is to check information provided. A trait which seems to have been passed down to their grandchildren when it comes to checking references etc. today!!
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Plus as many people didn't know exactly how old they were then there will be known errors in 1939 registration card dates of birth. But it is nothing to worry about as this happened all the time.
Most of the time the month and day is right though.
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I'm hoping that as I asked about 3 addresses in my first email, its the reason its taking longer.
I had one address, two names and today I got the e-mail you had 2 days ago, so there's hope yet.
Lizzie
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I have heard of some requests getting turned down.
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Pleased to hear you got a result Coombs, hopefully Lizzie and Parmesan will soon get something too.
Have heard of one person who supplied just a name and date of birth and who has had no luck.
I am waiting to hear how my friend has got on, her results may affect my interest.
I wonder what sort of search facilitiy might be available in the future? That would assist us and save money.
Selina
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Hi
I would like to ask for more but the 20 day wait seems a bit of a drag.
Ben
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LOL Ben - 20 days I don't mind but £42 I do mind - a lot!!
Selina
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I dont want to pay £42. In that case I would rather wait 20 days.
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Ben - you and me too! Lets hope that eventually there will be some sort of search facility, a reasonable price and we can all get what we want.
In the meantime perhaps 1939 electoral rolls could provide some answers if our people were over 21.
Selina
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I did find Mary and her husband on the electoral rolls in 1939 a couple of years ago at 99 St Pancras Way, Camden. London.
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Hi
I would like to ask for more but the 20 day wait seems a bit of a drag.
Ben
that's why I plumped for asking for 3 addresses at once, followed by another email 2 days after that for another one ;D
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There seems to be no plan for digitisation even if however distantly
That would really be the ideal, however if this is the nearest we get to a Census in that time frame, they may not be in any hurry
Bob
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They do of course have the problem that many of the people who were registered are still living. Also registration continued for a number of years after 1939 to eventually merge with registration for the national health service.
This would seem to prevent a simple service where records are just available to view.
David
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So if you were registered in 1939 did you have to keep registering every year or was it just the once?
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No. However if you moved, had a child, entered the country from abroad etc a change of or a new registration was required.
david
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Thanks.
The 1939 registration is handy as it helps confirm birthdates. My Mary A C Coombs was born 31 Dec 1863 and her 1939 registration says 31 Dec 1864, a year out but I have researched thoroughly and proven she was born 31 Dec 1863 as I have her birth cert. 31 Dec 1864 was when her mum and dad bought her first birthday cake. ;D
Ben
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Big Northern Irish development.
I made a request a couple of weeks past under the FOI act for an address in Belfast in the 1939 register. I've just had the following response:
The Public Record Office of Northern Ireland will be responding to this request under the terms of the Freedom of Information Act 2000.
Due to the sensitive nature of the information contained within these records, they are closed. Although PRONI does possess the National Identity Registers for Northern Ireland, we have a duty under the FOI Act to consult with the functionally responsible authority before any information can be released.
This search may take longer than usual as the archive in question is extremely large, is completely uncatalogued and is stored in our offsite storage facility. As the hundreds of volumes do not have an index, a manual search will have to be conducted on a page by page basis for the information requested. Consequently, this request will take considerably longer to process than normal routine queries, so we ask for your patience. However, a search of the archive is due to begin and I shall be in touch with you in due course.
Chris
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a page by page search?
no index?
don't hold your breath! :o
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I think I'll stick with the idea of the glass being half full! ;D
Chris
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Have heard of one person who supplied just a name and date of birth and who has had no luck.
Selina
Sorry to be thick here - does that mean you can just give a name and date of birth and your friend just didn't have any luck, or do they need to have the address?
I have no idea of the addresses at this time, because due to the war and other things, my family were moving left, right and central, and not staying too long anywhere!
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I don't know a precise postal address, but I'm certainly not paying £42!!
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It appears that you can request information using just one of the following:
A name and date of birth or
National Registration Number (or pre 1996 NHS No.) or
Address in September 1939
However they say that success depends on the information you supply so the more you give the more likely you are to get a result, and as the fee is non-returnable it needs thinking about!
See the application form on http://www.ic.nhs.uk/webfiles/news%20and%20media/1939_Register_Application_Form_1Feb%20.pdf
Selina
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Top priority when I win the lottery; if I change my view that the bankers should clear up their own £178billion mess, and not the taxpayers!
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Although I did not get any information from my enquiry, it was a positive result a way.
Had I been making an application and paying the fee I would have supplied exactly the same details for them to search on and would have had exactly the same lack of success - so I now have the knowledge that if I am prepared to pay for other searches in the future that particular one would be a waste of time and money.
Selina
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I think the date of the registration was late September 1939. 29th or something.
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Thanks everyone for all the info & the link to the form - anyone else worried by number 2 of the terms and conditions
"Data will be provided, as recorded on the 29 September 1939, only where the individual is now recorded as deceased. Where an individual is not recorded as being deceased, the information will not be disclosed unless the applicant can produce clear evidence which establishes that a death has taken place. A death certificate may not, in itself, provide sufficient evidence."
If a death certificate is not sufficient evidence that a death has taken place what on earth is?
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Data will be provided, as recorded on the 29 September 1939, only where the individual is now recorded as deceased. Where an individual is not recorded as being deceased, the information will not be disclosed unless the applicant can produce clear evidence which establishes that a death has taken place. A death certificate may not, in itself, provide sufficient evidence."
If a death certificate is not sufficient evidence that a death has taken place what on earth is?
Posted by: coombs
This probably is more to do with overseas deaths. The death certificate may not have sufficient information for the NHS to identify the deceased and its quite possible that a number of people of the same name and approximate date of birth may well have emigrated. They may well need further information. If a death occurs in the UK then the NHS are advised and would record on their records.
Andy
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The problem quite simply is that a death certificate may not contain sufficient information to prove that it actually relates to the person for whom information is being requested.
David
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I have been following this topic with keen interest and I wonder if someone could help me.
My grandfather was in Bracebridge Heath Hospital (lunatic asylum!) Lincoln from 1933 until his death in 1945. I desperately need a date of birth for him as I can find no record of his birth, but do I apply for information giving his home address or the hospital address. Would a mental hospital be his permanent address? I was all set to apply with the hospital address as I know he was living there in 1939, but his death certificate has his home address on it as well as the fact that he died at the hospital.
I don't want to give the wrong one and waste £42!!
Jenny
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Jenny - A good place to start is to read the Terms and Conditions on this page:
http://www.ic.nhs.uk/news-and-events/news/nhs-ic-launches-the-1939-register-service
Selina
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Thanks for answering so quickly!
I really must learn to read things properly. I had read the terms and conditions, but had got confused! So, it was like a census and the information was taken where they were. In that case, I go for the hospital address which was my first instinct until I started reading the terms and conditions!!!
Thank You!!!
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Thanks for all the information Guy. I had been trying to get information out of the wartime identity system for about a year but without success. Then I saw on line a report of your more focused efforts, and then saw an undated post of yours with addresses etc. So I sent NHS-IC the following letter.
16th November 2009
Dear Sirs.
Ref: Access to the 1939 to 1945 National Identity Card Register.
I request information from the 1939 to 1945 National Identity Card Register under the Freedom of Information Act 2000.
I would like to obtain the names of the persons registered as living at:-
A HOUSE IN A TOWN NOT FAR FROM MY CHILDHOOD TOWN.
in 1939 and 1940.
I am particularly interested to see if my father XXX YYYY was living there in the second half of 1940. My father died on November the ? 1942.
The reference of his card (originally compiled for MY CHILDHOOD ADDRESS)
was ABCD 321:1. He would have notified his change of address in 1940 to the registration authorities.
I could if required supply a scan copy of his death certificate.
I understand that there could be a charge for the supply of any information.
Yours faithfully
I received an acknowledgement letter dated 23 Nov 09.
The answers came attached to an email on the 15th Dec 2009. There was no mention of any charge.
They gave me the names of the persons at the search address - except for one, because they could not confirm if that person was deceased. (Actually I had, a year before, already obtained a copy of the 1939 electoral register. Of course, they could have been children.)
My father was not listed at the search address, but had registered at my then home address on registration night 29th September 1939. They said: “We do not hold any further details to confirm if your late father subsequently moved to THE SEARCH ADDRESS.
It seemed to me that NHS-IC confined their search to registration night 29th Sept 1939.
But there must have been changes of addresses of identity cards, in their possession. The nascent National Health Service of 1948, would have had need of these.
I asked for 1940 information, perhaps it doesn’t exist now, for my father. But generally it must exist, so are they withholding information?
I would like to know that if my father was not at the search address - then where was he?
Hopefully if this stuff is digitised I or my children will be able to research this data more thoroughly.
Thanks again Guy and everybody else for their information.
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Not a direct reply, but just a point someone may be able to clarify. Was an electoral register compiled in 1939, and if so what was the applicable date please? A further comment, if a shift worker e.g. railwayman was not at home on the night of the registration, surely he should still have registered as without ration books Identity Card etc. he would have had problems to say the least.
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There was a 1939 electoral register - I have used one a lot. I would dearly like to know the date it was compiled. Somebody I am researching was single in it, but was married on the 30th of August 1939.
Alan
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On the electoral registers that I have looked at the qualifying date for residents at addresses was stated on one of the first pages.
The last two I viewed were the 1952 register when the qualifying date was 20 November 1951 and 1953 register when the qualifying date was 20 November 1952.
Selina
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I think it is possible that for the 1939 register the qualifying date was 1 June with the register being issued on 15 October of the same year.
That would explain someone being single in June and marrying in August etc.
Not certain of the above but someone maybe able to confirm or otherwise.
Selina
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This is complicated by the fact that after 1947 the qualifying date was changed to November and later October from I believe April or May. This is very relevant to me as my parents married 6th April 1939, and moved into the address where the 1939 registration took place sometime between then and May 1939. My father was registered already in Boston, while my grandmother and mother would have been registered in Cambridge at the time of the wedding. Thanks Selina, if you are right then they all should be registered in Boston. The main thing though is that a register was compiled in 1939.
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Not sure if this makes sense!
Now that there is a charge for information from the 1939 Register is it possible to ask for any other information from NHS IC under the Freedom of Information Act which would still be free?
Selina
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I think the issue here is that they are charging the cost of retrieving the infomation which they are allowed to do. They may have learnt their lesson for other requests.
David
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Now that there is a charge for information from the 1939 Register
Is there a charge? I thought that the info was being given freely, at least for people who have already applied.
Lizzie
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Its OK Lizzie - still free if you applied prior to the starting of the charge which was around 1st Feb.
Selina
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Got my answer today but not impressed.
I asked for info on 3 addresses - I got one person at one address and its the wrong family. (I know the address is right from my father in laws Army book)
I got this for the other two addresses
"A search has been undertaken, but unfortunately we are unable to locate the requested data based upon the information provided."
so that's that then :(
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Parmesan
That means I should get a response within a couple of days, if they keep to the timescale. I hope I get more info than you. I know that my aunt and uncle were at the address and I know all about my aunt (one of my mother's sisters), what I really want is info about her "husband".
Lizzie
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I didn't include any names as I thought giving the address was enough and they would just give me ALL the people who were living there that are now deceased.
I don't understand 'we are unable to locate the requested data based upon the information provided' surely they search for the address and the folk should be listed there???
Anyway I'm not hopeful but I've sent another email outlining my grievance!
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I don't understand 'we are unable to locate the requested data based upon the information provided' surely they search for the address and the folk should be listed there???
That is exactly the reply I got Parmesan, strange that they could not help with two of yours and the third was unhelpful!
Selina
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Oh no, I get the feeling they will tell me my aunt lived at the address and not find any info on her "husband".
Lizzie
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On the other hand Lizzie you may get good stuff and make us envious!
Hope you do anyway.
Selina
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Happy bunny - my request for a list of those at an address in St Albans has just arrived, with six people listed, two of whom I haven't come across before, but who I suspect were boarders. Big thanks to Guy for the timely tip!
A Scottish request now resolved, an English request now resolved - just my Northern Irish request still to be sorted! :)
Chris
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Well that's a bit of better news.
Yes what a good turn Guy did us just a pity they managed to get organised and start charging quite so quickly!
Selina
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Hi
Given that the registration took place a few weeks after the war started its likely that reservists would have been called up and therefore would not have been registered at their home address, also evacuations of children had commenced so where would they have been registered? No doubt many adults also 'evacuated' either to a safer place or because others had left the family home.
Andy
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Well I got my reply today and good news, despite me giving the wrong address - I said Dulverton Avenue, Coventry and it turns out my aunt and uncle lived at Birchfield Road, Coventry - I now have the National Registration Number (don't know if that is any use to me) and the date of birth of my uncle which is what I wanted. The info also included their occupations, interestingly my aunt's is shown as "Unpaid Domestic Duties".
Now all I have to do is find someone with the same Christian name as my uncle and the same date of birth ??? I know that the surname they used was not his, but was one of my aunt's given names and was the maiden name of her mother.
Lizzie
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great Lizzie, glad you got a positive result.
I'm still one address outstanding that I sent for in a separate email - I won't hold my breath!
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Well done Lizzie, I think today they would describe your Aunt as a housewife.
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Well done Lizzie, I think today they would describe your Aunt as a housewife.
I think that is a bit dated, although it is what I would say. Today's PC term is "Homemaker"
David
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I have received all of mine, last 6 came today.
Disappointing on a couple, they couldn't find them? I didn't give address' (for nearly all) just name, birth and death details.
Wonderful news.
Many thanks to Guy.
Pauline
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Yes my great, great grandmother was listed as being of Unpaid Domestic Duties on the 1939 registration but as said that means housewife.
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I wonder if it depends on who is doing the searching. The only info I gave was address (wrong!) and the full name of my aunt and her date of death. For her husband I just used the title Mr. and said I thought he'd died 1940s/50s. With that little info, they found the right couple at a different address to the one I'd given them.
Lizzie
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Pleased to hear that you got a good result Lizzie! Yes I wonder if some spend a little more time and effort than others hunting for the people!
Also Pauline - not bad then if just a couple did produce anything.
Thanks to Guy we have all gained something if only what not to ask for another time.
Selina
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Forgive me for sounding thick (I'm getting good at it though ;D), but has anyone had any success from just a name and DOB?
I'm tempted to try and locate my gt gt grandfather - I've seen the 1937 electoral role resuls in my area, and he appears to have left his wife by that point, but I'm unsure whether he was still alive in 1939 or not. Family legend has it that he died in London - we're all from South Wales.
I'd love to locate him, mainly becuase I know some distant relatives were living in St Pancras in 1901, so there is a possibility he may have spent the remainder of his life with them and I may finally find his death
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Halfasheep - Have you tried to find his death recently? The Anc* death indexes are now very good its much easier I have found lots of my missing ones recently! Its easier to pin down the right one.
I gave (for the 1939) name, dob, and death index ref for most of mine.
for some I gave the address.
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William John Hughes, no idea when or where he died (possibly London). Likely died prior to the DOB's appearing on the death certificate.
Have to say that he's not been my first choice at attempting to locate using the BMD records ;D
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what about posting a request for help? and give us the dob? ;D
just in case...
pauline
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May well do that - just got into work, so will have to pull my records out when I get home and take full advantage of the wonderful offers on this site ;)
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I'll keep an eye out ;)
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David, Perhaps the term housewife is a bit dated, but then, so am I!! :)
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Me too, but I don't see anything wrong with it either.
PC I'm not!
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Neither am I, believe the world has gone mad. Bring back the 1960s!
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I would rather be a 'housewife' than a 'home maker' how twee! However I never say 'just a housewife' that puts us down.
From Low Maintenance, Multi Functional, Bio-degradable Selina
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Yes, I am most of those things Selina, but would not describe myself as low maintenance, more expensive to run!
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What were retired men listed as in the cards? Anyone applied for the card of a retired male?
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What were retired men listed as in the cards? Anyone applied for the card of a retired male?
My grandfather was described as Corporation Labourer, Retired
Rosie
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My ones would probably be listed similar.
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Just found this link on another message board about 1939 Registration release which is dated 15th Feb 2010.
http://blog.eogn.com/eastmans_online_genealogy/2010/02/major-release-of-personal-data-from-uk-war-time-national-register.html
I hope I get the ones I applied for a while ago without having to pay. I have had emails back that they recieved my request then that it was being put to second line, then escalated to specialist team.
Just got the first 2 back and with the information I gave them they could not give me the information. I had just put in Street names but hopefully I will get the others as I put the numbers of the houses I was enquiring about.
Christine
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Got mine today :)
They couldn't find the individual I asked for, which is odd, as the name is unique. They will look again if I can provide more information, at a cost of £42. I'm not going to risk it.
The other request was for the occupants of a particular address. It's much as I expected, but with one extra person I didn't expect, so now I have another mystery!
Thanks to Guy for posting the details of the 1939 Registration & how to apply.
Betty
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Similar thing, can't trace address but if supply more and pay will look again.
In 1939 some village addresses were not a number and street! Strange that they cannot be traced!
Selina
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dare I say sounds like folk are being fobbed off now so they can charge ::)
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Makes you wonder!!
Selina
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dare I say sounds like folk are being fobbed off now so they can charge
I don't understand what is happening. They found my aunt and uncle for me, even though I gave the wrong address. ::) Maybe they moved to the address I gave soon after registration, so that address was on the records. Even so I didn't give the number of the house, although I gave the correct City. I knew my aunt's full name and date of death, but that was all the info I gave. I didn't even give my uncle's name as I wasn't sure what name he had registered, I just gave his name as Mr Hobson and said he'd died in the 1940s/50s.
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maybe that was my mistake - I gave no names, or death dates, just the address and left it to them and they didn't do a good job!
one of the addresses was for my grandmother who I know lived there in '39 and my uncle still lives there today!
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I don't understand what is happening. They found my aunt and uncle for me, even though I gave the wrong address. Maybe they moved to the address I gave soon after registration, so that address was on the records. Even so I didn't give the number of the house, although I gave the correct City. I knew my aunt's full name and date of death, but that was all the info I gave. I didn't even give my uncle's name as I wasn't sure what name he had registered, I just gave his name as Mr Hobson and said he'd died in the 1940s/50s.
By giving them your aunt's full name and date of death they would have been able to identify her NHS record and working back through that record would have found her 1939 address. They would have then found the form for that address with the other occupants and then worked forward through the NHS records to ascertain whether the people were deceased or not.
Andy
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Thanks for that, but that seems to be more work than some other staff have been putting in, judging by comments on here. Perhaps I just got lucky.
Lizzie
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Thanks for that, but that seems to be more work than some other staff have been putting in, judging by comments on here. Perhaps I just got lucky.
I'm not sure that I would totally agree with that, because requests are made under FOI there is always the potential of an appeal so I believe the NHS would have to document their actions.
The biggest problem with just supplying an address I suspect would be the state of the archiving of the forms. Essentially you are trying to find one form amongst several million that exactly matches the address requested which particularly in rural or semi-rural areas can be a problem. Apart from forms that have been mis-sorted you also have to remember that the war had started, reservists would no doubt have been called up and evacuations had started so initial registrations may not be where you expect them.
Andy
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dare I say sounds like folk are being fobbed off now so they can charge ::)
They're lucky. I've never had so much as an acknowledgement ???
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Had my response to my second request for one property in Durham.
Unfortunately they cannot locate the address. Funny that, my dad was living there in 1939 with his parents and as my dad is still alive and in full possession of his faculties I wonder what the problem is.
Of course they are willing to do a further search under the new guidelines.
I got a further email in reply to my query about them giving me the wrong family on a previous request - the case is closed, end of, bugg*r off!!! >:(
Cynical? moi?
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I still say I got lucky with whoever was handling my request.
Lizzie
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Received an email today with this link relating to "New Fee Paying Access to 1939 Registration announced".
http://www.bbcwhodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com/news/new-fee-paying-access-1939-national-register-announced?utm_source=WDYTYANL170210&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=MainStoryClick
Apologies if this has already been covered but it is such a long and involved thread now.
Luzzu
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The fee must be to cover the cost of all the e-mails that are sent saying, looking into it, passed it to someone else, oh passed it to someone else now etc. ;D I shouldn't complain, I got the info I wanted and before they introduced the charge.
Lizzie
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There is this link too:-
http://www.ic.nhs.uk/news-and-events/news/nhs-ic-launches-the-1939-register-service
Luzzu
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Update for Northern Ireland 1939:
I'm just off the phone from someone at PRONI who called me for more info regarding my request for an address in Belfast, which is apparently the first they have received, though they have confirmed that they have received several more since - so many that I was told "we are going to have to do something about this".
They have found the info for the address I am interested in. There are 794 registers, two to a box, all completely unindexed and stored in an out storage facility. By a sheer fluke, my address was in the first box they looked at. The person I spoke to was very friendly, but did not know too much about what has happened in mainland Britain regarding the equivalent registers here, so I've e-mailed a summary of all the developments that have happened so far, starting with Guy's FOI act, the Scottish release, then the new NHSIC system etc.
Because the GRONI has to be consulted regarding permission to release the material it was suggested that if I could send information on proof of death, it would help with their discussions. I have therfore scanned a death cert for my grandfather and e-mailed it over, along with copies of English and Scottish 1939 releases I have already obtained, and I have explained how both the systems work over here.
In summary - I think this is a big deal for PRONI, but I also think they are extremely sincere about dealing with it. I've been asked to leave it with them for a short while, as various negotiations apparently now have to take place. But it is looking promising.
Chris
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£42 is very expensive, another reason why the information should be realised to FindMyPast or anc*stry
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£42 is such an odd amount.
I wonder how they arrived at that figure.
Betty
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£42 is an odd amount. At least they should round it down to 40 like they rounded down ages on the 1841 census. ;D
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just as well I know my immediate family well enough to know where they were!! :o
my parents are still alive and my husbands mother is still alive to tell me for free ;D ;D ;D
I know where my FIL was too! I have photos of him and his brother in the garden.
what a rip off!
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£42 is such an odd amount.
I wonder how they arrived at that figure.
Betty
The Government has a policy on Fees and Charges that lays down that they should recover the full cost of providing that service (unless there is an agreement to the contrary). This is a long standing policy of 30+ years standing. Charges that fall under this policy are reported annually to the Public Accounts Committee to show they are making a fall cost recovery and not a loss or a profit. From this I would suspect that some careful thought has gone into the £42 figure.
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just as well I know my immediate family well enough to know where they were!!
I knew where all my living family was in 1939 too, but what I wanted (and got) was a date of birth for my aunt's partner. I was hoping too, that he might have registered with a middle name that was his correct surname, but no such luck, both he and my aunt both registered with the surname they had adopted, so I'm no further forward in my search for his real identity. But never mind, to me he will always be my Uncle Tom who I adored. He and my aunt had no children and wanted to adopt me, but my mum wouldn't let them ??? however, I stayed with them frequently when small and was really spoilt by them.
I doubt I would have paid £42 for the information I received.
Lizzie
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Lizzie - I think you did have a bit of luck with your search and I am pleased you did, its good to hear of a success as there seems to have been quite a lot of disappointments. However at least they were free!
Parmesan - I have written this morning querying an address they supplied. Rather than a parish or village it is a district and I find it difficult to believe that it would have been that vague on such an important register. I have received a quick 'holding' reply, at least not an immediate dismissal or asking for fee.
Will see what happens!
Selina
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Lizzie again re your 'Uncle'. Couple of things that you may have already tried.
Electoral registers - wonder if he gave his correct name on those?
Death, expect that would have been registered under his real name, do you have date of death and could check with local registrar as you know his given name and address?
Selina
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Selina,
I responded to my first 'result' saying that I knew the addresses were correct etc. I got a holding email. Then about a week or so later one telling me my enquiry was closed but I could pay for another search ::)
well if they couldn't find it in the first place and the success rate seems patchy I'm hardly going to risk £42.
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Hi again Parmesan,
Oh well seems I need not get my hopes up then.
Thanks,
Selina
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I smell a rat!
I made 5 enquiries in January.
Today I got the replies and they said they can't find 4 and gave me what may be the wrong information for the 5th.
With service like that why would anyone pay £42?
Needless to say I shall be replying to them ....
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It does seem an easy way to waste money.
Another 'failure' was having given full birth date and full name, full marriage name in 1939 and full date of death an full name (second marriage).
No point in reapplying as no more to add to all that, if address was known then the enquiry would not have been made.
Selina
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I smell a rat!
<sniff> <sniff>
hmmm yes and its getting stronger!
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Strangely the one I didn't get back was for my grandparents, I didn't give a name just an address but I was told it couldn't be found. The building is still standing and if I google it I get this address
NHS Litigation Authority
Napier House
24 High Holborn
so they obviously know where it is now ;D
Rosie
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it would be interesting to collate all the negative responses to see just how many there are and the reasons why.
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Would you like some positive responses also? The results I received in my English and Welsh return from the NHSIC concerning an address St Albans contained six out of seven individuals, including one who turned out to be a Kinder Transport refugee, which I was able to confirm from the sole survivor from the household, an archdeacon living in Sheffield (the only member of my family to be 'Venerable'!).
For my two Scottish requests I was able to confirm from the GROS that my great grandmother was in fact in Glasgow at the start of the war, and not Inverness as believed, and was able to find a date of birth for my great uncle, who was born in Belgium. I also now know that my great aunt was living with her from a check in the electoral register for the relevant address that my great granny was found at, and so have now sent off a third request which will again conform date of birth in Belgium and hopefully an occupation.
With regard to Northern Ireland, my FOI request is still current, but I have been contacted by staff there who have been more than forthcoming about the various problems they have. I now know that they have found the info I am looking for concerning my grandparents, and am waiting for their internal discussions to be completed before they release it to me.
Hope this helps.
Chris
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As said I recieved the results for my great, great grandmother in London in 1939. I supplied the right info and they managed to find her OK.
I did hear that at present there are no plans to release the original images.
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I must confess that I was very pleased with my positive responses and without Guy Etchells I wouldn't have dreamed of even looking for them at this time.... so thank you Guy for the information enabling me and all the others to get this data prior to having to pay for it, and of course for fighting to get it for us in the first place.
Rosie
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I might enquire about my great grandfather George Musgrave born 1891 and my grandfather but he may have been in the RAF by September 1939. He was born in 1920.
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Yes, I too am very grateful to Guy as I expect everyone is whether their results were good or bad.
Whatever the outcome we got it saved a enormous amount of money and we also have a better idea of what to request in the future should we decided to pay.
Selina
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Oh yes, a very definite thank you to Guy and with luck this service will become more manageable in time and hopefully there will be a reduction in fees. £42 is extortionate!
I'm just unlucky I guess :-[ ;D
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This thread has hit the dreaded 20 pages, so I will lock it now.
Feel free to start another if there's enough discussion to justify it, and if someone lets me know I will add the URL here
New topic here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,438985.0/topicseen.html