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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Topic started by: Rah1980 on Sunday 22 November 09 13:30 GMT (UK)
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Hi I have relatives who lived on a farm called Coetia Mawr, and i would really like to know what it means - i am not completly detached from the language and i know the mawr will be to do with it being big (it was a 100 acre farm which i am assuming was big but not massive) funnily enough my other ancestors went on to live in a property down the road called Coetiau Mawr Bach which sounds a bit of a contridiction but anyway any ideas greatfully recieved
Sarah ;D
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The Welsh I know could be written on a postage stamp ... but having searched the dictionary, I can only suggest that maybe Coetia is a proper name ? Of a person, or a place perhaps ??
There is someone on Rootschat who can translate for you ... can't remember who though ! I'll have a think ...
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Tar, i did have a look at a dictionary my self first but they only hold 'modern' welsh, there are other properties i have seen called Coetia so can't help but think it means something
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I can only suggest that maybe Coetia is a proper name ? Of a person, or a place perhaps ??
Either that or a corruption of some sort; coed = wood - is/isaf= lower/lesser.
Just a guess though, because it's not a word that I recognise as Welsh. ???
edited 14.24 22nd Nov.
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I had a similar that about Coed, and I have seen it spelt Coetiau (but assumed the u was a mistake) although the farm in question was above the town of Holywell in Flintshire so i shouldnt imagine it was lower. Although I am welsh i only know the language as second language and even that isnt great so i dont understand mutations and things unfortunately, i dont think i will ever grasp it :'(
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From A History of Ancient Tenures of Land in North Wales and the Marches (http://www.efm.bris.ac.uk/het/palmer/AncientTenuresNorthWales.pdf) (thankyou Google Books!):
In the lordships of Hope and Mold one of the commonest generic names for fields is " coetie " or " coetia," evidently the same word that in old deeds and surveys is sometimes written " kwitie," and the name is not unknown in Bromfield. " Kwetkie " (a commoner term in Bromfield) points to " coed-gae " (wood-field), and indicates that a very large portion of the land now under the plough was once wooded. As a matter of fact, it occurs frequently in those areas known to have once contained large tracts of woodland.
The lordship of Bromfield, or Maelor Gymraeg (Welsh Maelor), in Denbighshire, is a border district of Wales, the position of which is perhaps sufficiently indicated by the statement that it contains the ancient parishes of Wrexham, Gresford, Ruabon, Marchwiel, Erbistock, the chapelry of Halt, and that portion of the parish of Bangor is y coed which lies on the left side of the Dee.
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Ahaaa! ;D
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By jove, she's got it !
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Yep that makes sense thank you very much ;D
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By jove, she's got it !
Hehe, helps living near the area in question!
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Where you from netgirl, if you don't mind me being curious :)
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Heh, now this is where it gets complicated ;-) I was born in Chester, of English parents, but lived from birth until the age of 18 in Flintshire - 0-8 in Deeside, then 8-18 on the Denbighshire/Flintshire border, and have a Welsh middle name, after one of my mother's cousins. I studied Welsh to A-level, and have one Welsh grandparent. After university (in Lancashire) I returned to my parental home, then moved to the English side of the border in 2007 (tho I always see it as living in No Man's Land - turn right at the bottom of the road "Welcome to Chester", turn left "Croeso i Gymru"! Towards the end of summer last year I returned to Wales when I moved in with my OH (and he's not Welsh, he's from Leics via Essex lol!)
The upshot of all of this is that I class myself as English, but vote for Plaid Cymru in Welsh elections, and at such a point in time as I might have children, I intend to raise them bilingually, wherever I am living at the time!
Sporting-wise... I suppose the best example I can give of this was in my time at University - watching the Six (or was it still Five back then?) Nations Rugby in the Student Union - Wales v England... all the red shirts one side of the bar, the white shirts the other side and me in the middle thinking "I couldn't give a stuff who wins, I just want a good match!"
Katie
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Lol ;D thanks for the detailed reply, if i ever get round to finding someone to have kids with i hope they will grow up with a better grasp of the language than me ::)
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A very interesting discussion about coetia. Here is a bit more information about this word which is found mostly in the old Sir y Fflint / Flintshire.
Historian Neobard Palmer's reference to coetia, from the year 1910, which netgrrl79 came across is instructive, but in fact he wasn’t quite right with his interpretation of it as ‘wood-field’.
It simply means field, and is to be found in comprehensive Welsh dictionaries (which are scarce) as coetgae. (It is included in Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru / The University of Wales Dictionary of the Welsh Language, which appeared in 61 parts beteen 1950 and 2002, and is available for a mere 350 pounds from the Gwasg Prifysgol Cymru / The University of Wales Press!)
http://www.uwp.co.uk/acatalog/1806.html
In South Wales it is pronounced coica, in the north-west as coecia, and in the north-east as coetia, coetie, cwitie, and cwetgie.
In the south coetgae is often seen in place names misspelt as Coed Cae or Coedcae.
The Welsh word for field is “cae” and originally meant “hedge, thing which encloses” (the meaning it has in the 1620 Welsh Bible). It is in fact related to the Germanic root hag- which has given English hedge, hawthorn, and (from Dutch) The Hague.
With the word coed (= wood) prefixed, the result is (coed + cae) = (coetgae). This is “stakes or a hedge used to enclose an area”. Later it came to mean the area enclosed itself – the field.
In one Flintshire place name it occurs as ‘field’ when translated – Coetia Butler, or Butlersfield. In another Flintshire name it is used as a synonym of cae – Coetia Llys, which is alternatively Cae Llys (from coetgae’r llys, cae’r llys, both meaning “the field of the court”) (or “of the bilberries”, if the second word is a misspelling for llus).
More information at:
http://www.kimkat.org/amryw/1_vortaroy/geiriadur_cymraeg_saesneg_BAEDD_ci_1675e.htm
Coetia-mawr is thus "Big Field", and Coetia-mawr Bach would be "Little Coetia-mawr [farm]".
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That was very indepth thank you, I still think it a little odd that a house down the road was called Coetiau Mawr Bach, although perhaps orginally the house had something to do with farm, but I can'y find any trace of it on the census' and dating way way back the house actually used to be a pub, although what it was called the family don't know as it must have been before 1840. By the time my Taid grew up in the property in the 1920's the house had dropped it's Mawr part and it came as a complete surprise to my mum to know that it was orginally called Coetia Mawr Bach like the big farm up the road which we then discovered had been farmed between abt 1840 - 1900 by by my Taids great grandparents (which was odd because he knew of them as he knew his parents were second cousins and both his parents were grandchildren for the people who ran the farm). Incase anyone knows of the area my mum says Coetia Mawr Farm is now the pet cemetry in Brynford and Coetia Mawr Bach has it would appear taken the name of the bungalow it adjourns which my great grandfather built called Delfryn. Funninly enough I don't know what that means either! Thanks for everyones help ;D
Sarah
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Delfryn I think would be 'pretty hill'... anyone feel free to correct me ;-)
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Hello again Sarah,
Do you know where "Coetiau Mawr" is, or was? I've found it on the first issue OS map, and by comparing with Google maps, aerial view, I think I can pin it down precisely.
Haven't found the "Bach" version though!
Tecwyn :)
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I believe some part of it was where the pet cemetry is now, in Brynford, next to the golf club, before you go under the a55 and get to the village of brynford, i know it was orginally 100 acres but have no idea in which direction, is the old map you are looking at it online would love a link to it if possible. The bach version is up the road, orginally it was just a small property but it did have a small plot of land at the back, i think going back it was the first property on the way into the village after the Llyn y mewn (however you spell it) pub before they built the new bungalows. I think Coetia Bach is called by Delfryn now used to be a seperate property next door but has now been knocked into to make it bigger.
Thanks Tecwyn :)
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Hi,
You're right about the pet cemetery.
The old map I have is on disc. I'll need to print a section of it, scan that so that it's saved as a jpeg. Then I'll send it to you as a personal message. I'm on my laptop at the moment, but I'll need to get my PC up and running to do it. I'll do that tommorrow.
Tecwyn :)
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I would really appreciate that and I know my mum would be over the moon! :D
Thank you very much Tecwyn Dioloch yn fawr iawn ;)
Sarah :)
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It simply means field, and is to be found in comprehensive Welsh dictionaries (which are scarce) as coetgae. (It is included in Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru / The University of Wales Dictionary of the Welsh Language, which appeared in 61 parts beteen 1950 and 2002, and is available for a mere 350 pounds from the Gwasg Prifysgol Cymru / The University of Wales Press!)
Hobyderidando,
Are you aware of the free Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru available on line. I downloaded it about 18 mth ago. You can either search on line or download the 10 PDF files.
I googled Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru and went from there
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Funnily enough, I currently live at Coetia Mawr and have just coincidentally come across this post.
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I would say it was helpful to know this but frankly, it was just really confusing... ;D
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Is that Coetia Mawr you live in or Coetia Mawr Bach?
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Coetia Mawr, the old farm, now the Pet Cemetery
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How many acres is it now? Strangely always feels a bit like home if I pass it on the A55. Have you learnt anything about its history/previous tennants?
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It's 7 and a half acres but no, not really, all the history I know of it begins 27-ish years ago when my grandparents bought the farm and converted it into the cemetery
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Following on from my other post (if approved and attachments get through)
Here are part of the Conveyancing documents from the sale of the properties in 1978, showing Delfryn and Coetia Bach
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Continuing my posts ....
My in-laws bought Coetia Bach and Delfryn from Sarah's relatives, the Parry's in 1978
Attached are some Ordnance Survey maps from the original 1870's County Series up to the 1960's showing Coetia Mawr, the Llyn y Mawn (my family pub in the late 90's and noughties) and the location of Coetia Bach/ Delfryn.
Not much seems to have occurred in those 100 years in Brynford !
We've also got a number of interesting documents associated with this including the auction of the Holywell Estate in 1919.
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Here is an extract of the Auction Lots from the Holywell Estate, listing Coetia Mawr, and Coetia Mawr Bach :)