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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Banffshire => Topic started by: crombieburn on Tuesday 08 December 09 17:56 GMT (UK)

Title: Stuarts stonemasons Tomintoul.
Post by: crombieburn on Tuesday 08 December 09 17:56 GMT (UK)
Does anyone have any information on the three generations of Stuarts that "built Tomintoul"?

I know of William born 1858, his father was Peter Stuart and his grandfather, William.
Title: Re: Stuarts stonemasons Tomintoul.
Post by: KirstyG on Monday 14 December 09 10:16 GMT (UK)
Peter (41) and son William (3) seem to be living with the rest of their family at Drovers Lane, Tomintoul, Kirkmichael in 1861.

http://freecen.rootsweb.com


William Stuart b.25th January 1858 Kirkmichael, Banff to Peter Stuart and Janet Smith.

Peter and Janet married 1st June 1848 Kirkmichael

(from IGI) http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/


Janet's sister Helen Smith is living with them in 1861.


What information do you have on this family already?

Kirsty
Title: Re: Stuarts stonemasons Tomintoul.
Post by: crombieburn on Monday 14 December 09 17:43 GMT (UK)
Thank you, I have quite a lot of info on the Stuart family mainly from Scotlands People research. I found the baptism record of Peter ( who married Janet Smith) in1848. His father was William Stuart, a stonemason and his mother named as Anne Riach.This information is from  Peter's death certificate , Tomintoul 1904.

I think that I have William , Peter and William cross checked and correct as far as birth, marriage, census are concerned. I have the possibility of the previous generation being Thomas Stuart married to Elizabeth Geddes. Not too sure of this as I think I have been going up too many branches at the same time and get somewhat confused!

I am very interested in finding out about the buildings they worked on and wonder if anyone would know anything about that or could suggest any way of finding out.
Title: Re: Stuarts stonemasons Tomintoul.
Post by: KirstyG on Monday 14 December 09 19:03 GMT (UK)
The first ordinance Survey map in the NLS collection was surveyed in the late 1860s so there is a good chance that the Stuarts worked on at least some of the buildings on there. The map is fairly detailed int the shape of and position of the buildings so it should be possible to work out which were built prior to 1870. By the looks of things the main grid pattern laid out then is still in place today so many of the original buildings probably are too.

http://www.nls.uk/maps/os/oneinch_1st_list.html

Aberdeen City Archives might have records which could help, or the University Library.

http://www.aberdeencity.gov.uk/LocalHistory/archives/loc_FAQs.asp

The Tomintoul Kirk Session might have records of interest, especially as the Kirk was built in 1826, so the elder Peter Stuart might have been involved.

Record held by NAS Ref GB234/CH2/354  Tomintoul Kirk Session


Hope this helps

Kirsty

Title: Re: Stuarts stonemasons Tomintoul.
Post by: crombieburn on Tuesday 15 December 09 22:40 GMT (UK)
Many thanks for all your help. I had no idea that these maps were available on line. They are excellent as I had been working from an early twentieth century map of the area, which was not very good in comparison.

I also realised that I had not yet found the marriage of Peter Stuart and Janet Smith but thanks to your mention of them on Peoplesearch I have now downloaded it.  As it turned out, he was the only Stewart among my Stuarts! Combined with the fact that his eldest child was born on the Isle of Colonsay I had kept drawing a blank on their marriage.

Hope to get to grips with investigating buildings soon but thank you again for your invaluable help. :)
Title: Re: Stuarts stonemasons Tomintoul.
Post by: KirstyG on Tuesday 15 December 09 22:52 GMT (UK)
You're welcome, I hope you have some success  :)

Kirsty
Title: Re: Stuarts stonemasons Tomintoul.
Post by: JSmith on Saturday 02 January 10 00:09 GMT (UK)
Probably not really what you are after, but you can lookup Janet Smith's ancestors:

Janet Smith - b 18 July 1820 to James Smith and Grace Cameron.

In 1841 James Smith, his two brothers John and Alexander, their wives, and about twenty children were all living close together at Ellick and Glenconlas

James Smith - b 8 June 1780 to James Smith and Helen Fraser
John Smith - b 24 November 1777 to James Smith and Helen Fraser
Alex. Smith - b 15 March 1787 to James Smith and Helen Fraser

James Smith and Helen Fraser's gravestone is in the Kirkmichael churchyard. Though worn, it suggests James was born about 1745. Changing from English Smith to Gaelic Gow, the records suggest one more generation:

James Smith - 8 August 1745 to John Gow and Christan Gould, Ruthven
Title: Re: Stuarts stonemasons Tomintoul.
Post by: crombieburn on Saturday 02 January 10 15:41 GMT (UK)
Many thanks for the very interesting Smith information. I have a copy (old parish records) of Janet Smith and Peter Stuart's marriage in 1845 and her birth in1821as well as her death certificate, Tomintoul 1888.

Also have Grace Cameron and James Smith's marriage 1817. So very pleased to travel further back on this branch. Do you by any chance know where Aultnahillick? is/was? Farm in Glenconglass? Also Grace Cameron's Kincairn?

Thank you again and a Happy New Year!
Title: Re: Stuarts stonemasons Tomintoul.
Post by: JSmith on Saturday 02 January 10 17:53 GMT (UK)
I believe Glenconglass farm is the farm at NJ174223.
It is still very much in use.

There is a stream flowing SW coming down to Glenconglass farm - visible on the modern 1:50000 map. I have a copy of an ancient OS map that calls the stream the "Allt na h-Ellick"
A few hundred yards up the stream is an old ruin - little more than a gable end. I guess this is the Aultnahillick farm mentioned in the 1841 census with John Smith and his family.

This link is (I hope) centred on the Altnhillick ruin.
http://maps.google.co.uk/?ie=UTF8&ll=57.286303,-3.36849&spn=0.002882,0.008208&t=h&z=17

There is a picture of the modern Glenconlass farm at. http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/51088. The farm house and older buildings are behind the big modern barn.

There are very brief references to these Smiths as tenants of farms in the book Lordship of Strathavon by Victor Gaffney. The Gordon estate papers and rent accounts for at least some of these farms still exist in Edinburgh.
I understand they suggest farming on the Ellick hillside was not easy. In a poor year the rent had to be held over to the following year.

Stories told to my Grandfather around 1900 claimed the family was related to John Smith, the first licensed whisky distiller. They include tales of how John escaped ambush in an inn by shooting into the fire, filling the room in soot and smoke, and escaping in the ensuing mayhem. The same story appeared more recently in Glenlivet advertisements. But we have yet to find any supporting historical record - and so far the dates don't fit very well.

I haven't looked for Grace Cameron and Kincairn.

Happy New Year!
Title: Re: Stuarts stonemasons Tomintoul.
Post by: crombieburn on Monday 04 January 10 12:02 GMT (UK)
Many thanks for solving the mystery of Altnhiillick. I would never have got there myself! The map links worked perfectly and it was particularly moving to see the ruin.
I have read about Victor Gaffney but have never seen any of his books. Have you read them? I presume that the Gordon Papers are held in the National Library, Edinburgh. Have you ever done any research in Elgin? I am keen to do that at some point.
I love the whisky story!It had occurred to me that there could be a link to THE Smith. Have you researched any other linked families in the area? As you can tell I have many questions that I would like to ask but these may be more suited to private messaging. I think that you only need to post three times to be able to do this.
Thank you again.
Title: Re: Stuarts stonemasons Tomintoul.
Post by: JSmith on Monday 04 January 10 21:44 GMT (UK)
Elgin:
Yes, I have been to Heritage Center in Elgin - indeed their collection of information on buildings may be relevant to your original mason question.
A version of the catalog is online - for example James - the father of John, James and Alexander is:
http://libindx.moray.gov.uk/subjects/subject_people_report_view.asp?REF_ID=NM188040
I came away with an lovely obituary of Margaret Robertson, (who was married to John Smith and was living in Altnahillick in 1841) which led me to look for the rest of her children. She had 10 children, 8 with John and 2 later, and the families of James and Alexander fell into place while trying to sort then out.

I have had my hands on a copy of "The Lordship of Strathavon". Interesting, heavy going, with the emphasis on the history before 1750., but not a light read.
Title: Re: Stuarts stonemasons Tomintoul.
Post by: Spartan67 on Monday 05 February 18 10:48 GMT (UK)
I realise that this thread is focused on the Stuarts and I don’t wish to distract from that focus but I’m also interested in another family of stonemasons of that time. My research is about Robert McDonald b.1839 who was also a Mason (his father Robert b.1804 was also a Mason).  In particular I’m trying to find the whereabouts of “Millburn aka Mill Burn” in the Abernethy & Kincardine area which was the family home of Robert McDonald b. 1839?  It is shown on the 1891 census records next to “Glenlochy” not far from Tomintoul which I have found on maps of that time across the River Avon from the Kirkmichael church.  I believe Millburn was a farmstead or croft in the Bridge of Brown/Tomintoul area.

Obviously to be a stonemason at thT time was a trade in demand. If it helps I can repost on a new board.
 
Cheers
Title: Re: Stuarts stonemasons Tomintoul.
Post by: Spartan67 on Monday 05 February 18 12:23 GMT (UK)
Sorry I didn’t mention that the reason I am interested in the Mcdonald stonemasons is that John McDonald b.1867 was the father of George McDonald (illeg. aka Rose/Ross) b.1890 the husband of Barbara Grace Grant Stuart b.1892 daughter of William Stuart b.1858. 

One gap I have re the Stuart’s is the surname of William's wife Isabella. It is illegible on the marriage record of Barbara & George although I can make out that it began with “Mc”.  Barbara & George had 13 children in Tomintoul (living at the house Strombos) and Barbara died in Sheffield in 1975.   Hope that paints the picture & would welcome info on “Isabella)

Cheers
Title: Re: Stuarts stonemasons Tomintoul.
Post by: Millmoor on Monday 05 February 18 13:32 GMT (UK)
I wondered about Isabella's surname being McIntosh when I first looked at the image and then with a free search on SP found the only marriage in Banffshire between a William Stuart and an Isabella between 1875 and 1895 was this one.

William Stuart and Isabella McIntosh 1885 Tomintoul.

William
Title: Re: Stuarts stonemasons Tomintoul.
Post by: Spartan67 on Monday 05 February 18 13:46 GMT (UK)
Thanks William - much appreciated. I can now have a go at following another branch of the family.  Still no idea on where Mill Burn (Millburn) may be though. Thanks again.
Title: Re: Stuarts stonemasons Tomintoul.
Post by: Millmoor on Monday 05 February 18 14:03 GMT (UK)
Isabella seems to have died 1895 and William remarried by 1901 to either Eliza Jane Stuart or Elizabeth Jane Wade (new wife showing as Lizzie in 1901 age 24 b Glasgow).

Census shows Isabella as born Keith - suspect parents Charles and Ann. He was a gamekeeper and living Tomintoul 1891.

William
Title: Re: Stuarts stonemasons Tomintoul.
Post by: crombieburn on Monday 05 February 18 15:03 GMT (UK)
Hello distant cousin! Isabella’s name was indeed McIntosh. I have some information on her, if you are interested I will dig it out.
Title: Re: Stuarts stonemasons Tomintoul.
Post by: Spartan67 on Monday 05 February 18 15:14 GMT (UK)
Thanks William.  I’d got that Isabella had died & William had remarried. I’d not got to Isabella’s parents though.   Cheers
Title: Re: Stuarts stonemasons Tomintoul.
Post by: Spartan67 on Monday 05 February 18 15:19 GMT (UK)
Distant cousin 😁  Given the levels of illegitimacy in the area I’d bet there’s a fair few “cousins” around.    All information is really welcome.  By the way I’m researching my wife’s family tree so Isabella will be my wife’s Great Grandma and your distant cousin.  Cheers
Title: Re: Stuarts stonemasons Tomintoul.
Post by: Forfarian on Monday 05 February 18 18:27 GMT (UK)
I realise that this thread is focused on the Stuarts and I don’t wish to distract from that focus but I’m also interested in another family of stonemasons of that time. My research is about Robert McDonald b.1839 who was also a Mason (his father Robert b.1804 was also a Mason).  In particular I’m trying to find the whereabouts of “Millburn aka Mill Burn” in the Abernethy & Kincardine area which was the family home of Robert McDonald b. 1839?  It is shown on the 1891 census records next to “Glenlochy” not far from Tomintoul which I have found on maps of that time across the River Avon from the Kirkmichael church.  I believe Millburn was a farmstead or croft in the Bridge of Brown/Tomintoul area.

Is this the family of Robert McDonald and Jane/Jean Grant, all of whom were baptised in the parish of Kirkmichael?

In 1841 they were at Strongavy; in 1851 and 1861 at Lower Tombreck, both in the parish of Kirkmichael.

Tombreck/Tombreac is in Glen Brown, upstream from Bridge of Brown. See http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=57.2553&lon=-3.4501&layers=5&b=1 - if you move the map around you can see other places listed in the same enumeration district (Fodderletter, Burnside, Lyngary).

Mains of Glenlochy is on the left bank of the river, in the next parish (Abernethy and Kincardine) and county (either Moray or Inverness-shire - the Statistical Account says, "It is a little remarkable, that at the south east point of this parish, between Glenlochy and Glenbrown, the shires of Inverness, Murray and Banff meet; so that when standing on the Bridge of Brown, one may throw a stone in to any of the three counties").

Sròn a' Chathaidh is south-east of Tombreck; in the second edition of the six-inch map it is anglicised as Stronachavie.

However I can't see anywhere that looks like Millburn (or Allt a' Mhuilinn, which would be the Gaelic version of Millburn). There are a Midtown and a Milltown.
Title: Re: Stuarts stonemasons Tomintoul.
Post by: Spartan67 on Monday 05 February 18 23:04 GMT (UK)
Hi Forfarian.  Yes that is the family & all the info you’ve posted does hold good.  Thanks

Millburn is a mystery - it first appears by that name in the 1891 censuses when Robert Mcdonald b. 1837 was the head of household.  It’s transcribed in 1901 as “Mill Burn”.  It does look, however, it was known as Mill Croft as in the 1881 census when Robert McDonald b.1837 (head of household) is described as “Mason & Crofter Of 5 Ac. Arable”.  At that time old Robert Mcdonald b.1804 aged 77 was also living there too (occ. Annuitant).

On both the 1881 & 1891 censuses it is completed as the record next to Glenlochy.

I can’t spot it either.
Title: Re: Stuarts stonemasons Tomintoul.
Post by: Forfarian on Monday 05 February 18 23:25 GMT (UK)
Definitely a mystery - all the other places on the page are easily identified on the second edition of the OS map.

Unless it's the unnamed group of buildings on the opposite side of the burn from Dailabhrogat/Dalavrogat? There's a weir shown just upstream of them, which would fit with a mill there. See http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=57.2824&lon=-3.4550&layers=6&b=1

Dailabhrogat/Dalavrogat is of course in the neighbouring parish or Kirkmichael.
Title: Re: Stuarts stonemasons Tomintoul.
Post by: Spartan67 on Tuesday 06 February 18 11:41 GMT (UK)
Definitely strange given the name existed for at least 30+ years.  My wife’s Grandad George Ross was a postman  in Tomintoul during the war & he routinely mentioned that he delivered there to his immediate family. Of course Millburn would also be part of his family as John Mcdonald was his out of wedlock father. 

I’ve downloaded the 1911 census and it’s still there.  It’s listed on the census record in the order of address; Boninch, Lyntelloch, Tomlay, Millburn & Mains of
Glenlochy.  You may well be right about the buildings near to Dailabhrogat as they appear to be the only ones in the area not named.

It may turn up somewhere in the future - thanks for your help.

Title: Re: Stuarts stonemasons Tomintoul.
Post by: rowanali on Thursday 07 March 19 19:26 GMT (UK)
Just throwing this into the mix.  Maybe relevant, or not...

I have a James Kelman and his wife Jane Gordon (Jean) and a few kids living at Glenlochy (Abernethy) and James was definitely a Miller by trade.  So there must have been a mill there, so possibly a residence of some sort near the burn where the Mill was?  This was in 1841 (although they are listed as Helman, rather than Kelman which made them very tricky to find!).

Title: Re: Stuarts stonemasons Tomintoul.
Post by: rowanali on Saturday 09 March 19 15:50 GMT (UK)
Actually James Kelman seems to be described as meal Miller of Ruthven Mill or as living at Glenlivet - used interchangeably.  I thought it was a Ruthven further away but looks like it was Ruthven, Kirkmichael. 
Title: Re: Stuarts stonemasons Tomintoul.
Post by: Indiana.59 on Tuesday 12 March 19 23:50 GMT (UK)
Thank you, I have quite a lot of info on the Stuart family mainly from Scotlands People research. I found the baptism record of Peter ( who married Janet Smith) in1848. His father was William Stuart, a stonemason and his mother named as Anne Riach.This information is from  Peter's death certificate , Tomintoul 1904.

I think that I have William , Peter and William cross checked and correct as far as birth, marriage, census are concerned. I have the possibility of the previous generation being Thomas Stuart married to Elizabeth Geddes. Not too sure of this as I think I have been going up too many branches at the same time and get somewhat confused!

I am very interested in finding out about the buildings they worked on and wonder if anyone would know anything about that or could suggest any way of finding out.

I noticed the names you are researching and wonder if you had come across this site in regard of the Grants - http://magoo.com/hugh/grant33.html . . .

And could we be researching the same families as a whole here . . .
Title: Re: Stuarts stonemasons Tomintoul.
Post by: Skoosh on Wednesday 13 March 19 07:35 GMT (UK)
Passed through Glen Brown 20 years ago, these abandoned houses still had the box-beds in them which is quite remarkable, hopefully they're still intact. Nice to see the names of the folk who lived in them!  ;D

Skoosh.
Title: Re: Stuarts stonemasons Tomintoul.
Post by: crombieburn on Wednesday 13 March 19 18:40 GMT (UK)
Thank you for passing on the link to a very interesting site. I did have a look at it some time ago. As far as I have got in research I have not found any Shaws in my tree but do have Grants and McGregors.
I love the Tomintoul area and spent a lot of time there as child.
Title: Re: Stuarts stonemasons Tomintoul.
Post by: Periwinkled on Thursday 21 March 19 13:12 GMT (UK)
Millburn is on current OS Map https://osmaps.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/57.28151,-3.45238,17 and I'm pretty sure that the remains of the wheel were still there when I visited Glenlochy a couple of decades ago.
Title: Re: Stuarts stonemasons Tomintoul.
Post by: Lonscot on Tuesday 17 September 19 21:24 BST (UK)
I'm another going slightly off beat on this one as I'm looking into the McDonald family who stayed in Millburn near Tomintoul. I can trace their history back to John McDonald who was born in Kirkmichael (around 1767 - date not exact) and died somewhere between 1851-1854. He was married to an Isobel Grant in 1803 and had a son Robert McDonald born 28 February 1804 in Kirkmichael.
There was a Mary Ann McDonald who died in Inverness in 1982, Daughter of John McDonald and Margaret Jane Grant. Mary Ann married a Cruickshank in December 1940. I'm trying to find out if any of Mary Ann's line in the McDonalds is still around as she and George didn't appear to have children and her son John died in 1994. As far as I can tell she had 3 brothers, William died 1905, Alexander died 1997 and there was also a Robert, born in 1905, but I can't find a date of death unless he's still with us at the age of 93/94.  Great age if he is!  There were also two sisters, Jane who died in the year she was born -1906, and a Liza who died in 1988.  Any leads or help would be much appreciated.