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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Flintshire => Topic started by: Huwcyn on Saturday 02 January 10 18:09 GMT (UK)

Title: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: Huwcyn on Saturday 02 January 10 18:09 GMT (UK)
whilst researching my ancestrors , the things I've been using are an uncle's research, and a little notebook written by my g-grandfather around 100 years ago. The notebook was annotated by my grandfather , and i've found of late that a couple of things don't connect as thought ( generations mixed-up) . The following isn't strictly relevant to my ancestry, but I'd like to someone, if possible to help me connect the following :

1st generation (all born in Newmarket, Flintshire , children of Peter and Anne Jones)

Robert ( 1807) , William (1814) , Owen (1816 - 1855) , Jane (1809 ) , Anne (1811)
They were the siblings of my g-g-g -grandfather)

2nd generation
Son of one of the above ( probably William):  John Jones (m Catherine )

3rd generation
John Jones  (b 18 dec 1856 ) , son of John and catherine

4th generation
Stanley Jones ?

The names I have for various dwellings (i'm not sure whether they refer to houses, streets or hamlets) are ' Wrth y ffynon' Newmarket , Pen-y_ffordd (Holywell) and Tan-Y-Fynwent (?)

I'f anyone acn tell me anything at all about the above , I'd be grateful.


Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: taidgazacaz on Sunday 03 January 10 21:29 GMT (UK)
The Parish Register transcriptions (by Clwyd FHS) confirm the births and baptisms of Peter, Jane and Anne, and reveal that father Peter was a miner. (Dates if you want them)

There's also a marriage on 21st December 1803, between a Peter Jones (otp) and Ann Owen (of Holywell).

Beyond 1812 a visit to the archives would be needed to sort out the others.

Regarding the properties;
There is, or was, a house called "By the Well" in Trelawnyd, but I can't recall exactly which one it was, except that it was near to what used to be the village pump.
"Tan y Fynwent" is still there; obviously near the churchyard.
"Pen Y Ffordd, Holywell" is another village 3.6 miles to the North East of Trelawnyd, beyond Llanasa.
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: Huwcyn on Sunday 03 January 10 21:38 GMT (UK)
Thank you . Can you please tell me if all the following are different, and adjacent parishes, or are some villages within parishes  :

Holywell,/Ffynongroyw, Newmarket/Trelawnyd , Llanasa , Gwaenysgor
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: taidgazacaz on Sunday 03 January 10 22:15 GMT (UK)
Holywell is a town and a parish.
Ffynnongroyw is a village in the parish of Llanasa.
Llanasa is a village a few miles to the North East of Trelawnyd, and is also a large parish, adjacent to that of Trelawnyd.
Gwaenysgor is a village and parish, to the North West, also adjacent to Trelawnyd.

Finally Trelawnyd. This village and parish was called Newmarket form c1700 to 1954, when the name was changed to Welsh. The new name is similar to various versions that existed before 1700.
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: taidgazacaz on Friday 22 January 10 21:24 GMT (UK)
Any idea whether your 4th generation Stanley Jones was a butcher?
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: Huwcyn on Sunday 24 January 10 14:20 GMT (UK)
I'll have to check that with my mother , I'm afraid .
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: Huwcyn on Sunday 24 January 10 19:17 GMT (UK)
He was a minister,later on, born at hollywell.
My mother thinks he had brothers called Alun, Edmund ? , and a sister called Catherine.
I might well have placed him in the wrong 'branch' .
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: Huwcyn on Tuesday 26 January 10 18:35 GMT (UK)
Thank you for your help - I've found a lot of information.
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: CMooreddrall on Wednesday 06 December 17 21:37 GMT (UK)
Hi,

I found a postcard from about 1910 or so. I believe it to be from a woman named Edith Jones- The address to me looks like it says Tan y Fynwent or Tan y Tynwant (though i think its the former) in Newmarket. I think I am related to her in some fashion- but have never been able to find our why or how...Perhaps that name might ring a bell?
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: despair on Wednesday 06 December 17 23:26 GMT (UK)
There is an Edith J Jones,given born 1880,daughter of William and Ellin(possibly Ellen),at Tanyfynwent,Newmarket in the 1891 census.I think William dies in 1910,and as Edith is not at that address in the 1901 or 1911 censuses,presumably she was writing "home".
Obviously I cannot speculate on any connection without any further details.

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: CMooreddrall on Wednesday 06 December 17 23:41 GMT (UK)
There is an Edith J Jones,given born 1880,daughter of William and Ellin(possibly Ellen),at Tanyfynwent,Newmarket in the 1891 census.I think William dies in 1910,and as Edith is not at that address in the 1901 or 1911 censuses,presumably she was writing "home".
Obviously I cannot speculate on any connection without any further details.

Regards
Roger

1910 was an estimate- only because I cannot read the stamp on the postcard. The post card was to my great grandmother who was staying with friends in Cheshire. The group of postcards I have of hers are from a 1907-1912 grouping- so it was a ball park area. The card from Edith reads,  "Write soon, Home at last for a holiday and enjoying myself hoping you to be the same love from Edith". I am going to try scan to upload. I do also have a photo of Edith Jones. Of course i dont think it helps us!
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: despair on Wednesday 06 December 17 23:47 GMT (UK)
Are you willing to reveal any details of your great grandmother that might help find any connection?


Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: despair on Wednesday 06 December 17 23:57 GMT (UK)
I think I can find Edith in both the 1901 and 1911 censuses.I n 1901 she is with her married sister,Sarah Nuttall in Everton.In 1911 shee is in domestic service in Rhyl.

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: CMooreddrall on Thursday 07 December 17 00:29 GMT (UK)
Are you willing to reveal any details of your great grandmother that might help find any connection?


Regards
Roger

Of course. Her name was Margaret Dowell Jones. Her parents were John Evans Jones (b~1854 Cynwyd/Llandrillo d 11 June 1922 Bala) and Martha Williams (b. 13 Jan 1850 Cheshire - d 20 May 1916 Bala). The story is a bit strange- John and Martha along with their new baby William emigrated to America in 1882. My great grandmother Margaret was born in Venedocia Ohio 10 feb 1883. They moved to Missouri and had twin girls but one died the surviving one was Susannah Mary (Susie), then they moved to Iowa and had a boy Albert David and a girl Catherine Ann (Katie Ann). Around 1897- Martha was having asthma problems and John told her to choose- California or back to Wales...so they went back to wales. They moved to Rhyl and lived at "Cynwyd House" Brighton Rd. Martha ran it as a boarding location for summer visitors and John opened a shoe shop. Their son Albert David was a grocer. Eventually my grandmother moved back to America along with her older brother William- the rest of the family stayed. I suspect Edith may be a cousin to my great grandmother- we have little information on John Evans Jones besides him being a shoemaker and where he was born. We don't know his parents names or if he had siblings and therefore kids- we also do not know why he chose to go to Rhyl...but then again who knows.
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: despair on Thursday 07 December 17 11:40 GMT (UK)
Can't immediately see a connection.Perhaps they were just friends,Edith born 1879,Maggie 1883,who became acquainted because of proximity-Edith at Preswylfa,Russell Road,Maggie at Cynwyd,Brighton Road,only a few hundred yards apart-or maybe Edith was in service to the family at some stage.
Will carry on looking for a family relationship.

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: despair on Thursday 07 December 17 19:51 GMT (UK)
The postmark looks like it was "Rhuddlan" with a date beginning with a zero.The second number seems to have a curved bottom 3,5,6 or 8? It doesn't help the relationship or otherwise issue,but it looks like Edith remained a spinster till she died is 1943(probate granted to er brother Edward,a grocer-like Albert David?).
What a striking photograph!

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: despair on Thursday 07 December 17 22:32 GMT (UK)
This marriage snippet says the father of Martha Williams was"late of Rhyl"-perhaps this is why John Evan Jones went there.I'll see if I can find anything more about John Evan from the address given.

http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3851279/3851281/4/

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: CMooreddrall on Thursday 07 December 17 23:00 GMT (UK)
This marriage snippet says the father of Martha Williams was"late of Rhyl"-perhaps this is why John Evan Jones went there.I'll see if I can find anything more about John Evan from the address given.

http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3851279/3851281/4/

Regards
Roger

Wow! Ive tried searching the Wales newspapers and I had been having a neck of a time. Its fantastic you found this! I was able to locate them on an 1871 census in Rhyl thanks to that info. They lived at 4 Vale Road in that census- I had only known them to have lived in Chester! Now the fact they went to Rhyl seems more apparent - and I can at least estimate his death as per the announcement. We didn't really have much more information on her parents so this is exciting.
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: despair on Thursday 07 December 17 23:38 GMT (UK)
I wouldn't necessarily conclude that the phrase "late of Rhyl" implies that he died there(though it might),it may mean that he lived there until recently.

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: despair on Thursday 07 December 17 23:50 GMT (UK)
In case you haven't found the records,there is a burial record for Martha Williams,Bridge End,Cynwyd,
July 1879-the parish is given as Llangar cum Cynwyd and it appears in one well known database under Llandrillo,Merionethshire.
There is a further record there for January 1880 for William Williams aged 70,but the abode is only given as Cynwyd.

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: despair on Friday 08 December 17 01:13 GMT (UK)
A little speculation:-
It looks like John Evan and Martha name their first son William Thomas.With William being Martha's father's name,it is not unreasonable to speculate that Thomas is John Evan's father's name.
There is a Thomas and Margaret Jones (born 1823) at Cwm Uchsf,Llandrillo in the 1871 census(ref. RG11/5538/63/13).
It may be necessary to purchase the 1879 marriage certificate to find out who was the father of John Evan.

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: despair on Friday 08 December 17 02:37 GMT (UK)
Burial of Thomas Jones of Cwm Ucha Llandrillo,April 1884 aged 61.Probate granted to Robert Jones,son.

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: CMooreddrall on Friday 08 December 17 03:33 GMT (UK)
In case you haven't found the records,there is a burial record for Martha Williams,Bridge End,Cynwyd,
July 1879-the parish is given as Llangar cum Cynwyd and it appears in one well known database under Llandrillo,Merionethshire.
There is a further record there for January 1880 for William Williams aged 70,but the abode is only given as Cynwyd.

Regards
Roger

I was able to find that record for William, but so far the only record I found that might be Martha is July 1878- unfortunately its under death registration so it has little information. Where/what database can I find the burial records. Do you think the burial was registered later and its the same person? I think you are likely correct of that information as he had a fondness for Cynwyd it really wouldn't surprise me to see them move back. Also with regards to his father being Thomas- we suspected it might be- but with nothing to go on it was hard. My great grandfather- who married Margaret Dowell was born William Thomas Jones(his moms dad was William, dads dad Thomas- but ended up changing Thomas to Roberts his mothers maiden name- we just thought it funny if he hadn't changed it he would have shared the same name as his wife's brother!). My family visited the vicarage of Cynwyd in the 1970s the vicar found the name but when johns name was found- it was off by a year- apparently the child's father was a horse thief George Barrow wrote about in Wild Wild Wales- but the vicar disregarded giving them his information which My family believed to spare embarrassment...unfortunately I never found the horse thiefs name to be able to know...

I will try to get a hold of their marriage cert to see. You have been able to find more information in a day than we had in years. The mystery of this part of the family has been bugging us- from seeing photos in 1921 of a woman called auntie Catherine in Llandrillo to some mystery cousins Hattie and Susie- we figured john had to have had siblings(at least Catherine unless it was a name they used forb endearment). At least with Martha we knew.

Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: despair on Friday 08 December 17 04:08 GMT (UK)
I use FindMyPast.The date for Martha could be 1878 or 9 from memory.It's early morning here,I'll resume tomorrow.

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: CMooreddrall on Friday 08 December 17 04:32 GMT (UK)
A little speculation:-
It looks like John Evan and Martha name their first son William Thomas.With William being Martha's father's name,it is not unreasonable to speculate that Thomas is John Evan's father's name.
There is a Thomas and Margaret Jones (born 1823) at Cwm Uchsf,Llandrillo in the 1871 census(ref. RG11/5538/63/13).
It may be necessary to purchase the 1879 marriage certificate to find out who was the father of John Evan.

Regards
Roger

I found the 1881 census with that reference info but 1871 I saw the reference of RG10 5681 and a different family name at Cwm Uchaf- am I looking in the wrong place?

I saw what I suspect might be the family(with john and possibly a wing birth year) RG10 5681 26 9, for 1871 at Pentre, and another HO107 2509 226 5 in 1851at Cwm Uchaf...

I saw your post that its early morning- thank you again.
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: despair on Friday 08 December 17 13:41 GMT (UK)
You have found the same records as me:-
1851  HO107/2509/226/5    Cwm Ucha
1861 Not found.Some 1861 pieces are missing,But I didn't think this area was involved.
1871  RG10/5681/26/9         Pentre,Garthiaen  original gives correct birthplaces for Thomas/Margaret
1881  RG11/5538/63/13

While the 1871 seems anomalous,in 1881 at Pentre Bach,next to Garrthiaen is the family of Hugh and Catherine Jones.This Catherine looks like the sister of John(and Robert) with a possible marriage in 1873.The couple are still there in 1911.Presumably she is a candidate for Auntie Catherine of Landrillo,1921.

I have George Borrow's "Wild Wales",but I can't guarantee finding the name of the horse thief!

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: despair on Friday 08 December 17 17:17 GMT (UK)
I assume you have the marriages of the two daughters of John Evan and Martha,Susie and Catherine(Katie)
(Hattie is not a misread of Katie elsewhere is it?)

http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3630482/3630486/41/

http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4246823/4246831/37/

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: CMooreddrall on Friday 08 December 17 20:52 GMT (UK)
I assume you have the marriages of the two daughters of John Evan and Martha,Susie and Catherine(Katie)
(Hattie is not a misread of Katie elsewhere is it?)

http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3630482/3630486/41/

http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4246823/4246831/37/

Regards
Roger

So interesting you should mention the Hattie vs Katie thing- I thought that could have been a possible issue too- but I was informed it was a separate person.

And with regards to the marriages- I in fact did know about them- but the interesting thing was I had been told that Katie married a John Thomas- not William- as per their granddaughter. I will run it by her with the link and ask what she says.

Addm: She agreed it was probably William Thomas- as he died well before she was born as did her grandmother- she did not know much about them.
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: despair on Friday 08 December 17 22:36 GMT (UK)
One thing we haven't found is any evidence that Edith was related!

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: CMooreddrall on Friday 08 December 17 22:40 GMT (UK)
You have found the same records as me:-
1851  HO107/2509/226/5    Cwm Ucha
1861 Not found.Some 1861 pieces are missing,But I didn't think this area was involved.
1871  RG10/5681/26/9         Pentre,Garthiaen  original gives correct birthplaces for Thomas/Margaret
1881  RG11/5538/63/13

While the 1871 seems anomalous,in 1881 at Pentre Bach,next to Garrthiaen is the family of Hugh and Catherine Jones.This Catherine looks like the sister of John(and Robert) with a possible marriage in 1873.The couple are still there in 1911.Presumably she is a candidate for Auntie Catherine of Landrillo,1921.

I have George Borrow's "Wild Wales",but I can't guarantee finding the name of the horse thief!

Regards
Roger

I have a feeling you are right. And based on a picture I have for a cousin Susie I suspect it is the Susannah from the earlier census based on how old they look in those photos.
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: CMooreddrall on Friday 08 December 17 22:55 GMT (UK)
One thing we haven't found is any evidence that Edith was related!

Regards
Roger

My only thought would be it was perhaps a daughter of one of Johns siblings...You may very well be right she is not related- but I had suspected she was one of johns siblings children-though neither has William or Ellin(en) as a name- sure it could be a cousin too, unfortunately following them is not so easy with their Jones name i think it might go back a bit further. So I figure you might be right regarding the relation, Its very unfortunate that is the case. But I think we can at least put a face to a name and location- despite there being no relation.
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: despair on Friday 08 December 17 23:10 GMT (UK)
On the positive side if Thomas and Margaret prove to  be the correct parents for John Evan,the 1871 census gives Margaret's father to go back another generation on that side.There is a newspaper snoppet that gives John Roberts dying aged 83 in 1878 at "Pentre (late Cwm Ucha")

http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3288878/3288881/21/

Regards
Roger

Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: despair on Friday 08 December 17 23:47 GMT (UK)
......and in 1841 the Roberts family are,indeed,at Cwm Ucha.

HO107/1428/19/5/5

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: despair on Sunday 10 December 17 10:54 GMT (UK)
In case you have not looked,Tan y Fynwent (from" o dan y mynwent" or "below the cemetery") in Newmarket(aka Trelawnyd) was probably where Llan Cottages (Bwthyn y Llan) are on this map

https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/308500/379500/12/100954

and is referred to here:-

http://www.gwaenysgorandtrelawnyd.org.uk/trelawnyd-old-trelawnyd-homes/

Bwthyn y Llan (postcode LL18 6EF) can be seen on Google Earth.

I will see if there is any remaining sign of Cynwyd House in Brighton Road.

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: despair on Sunday 10 December 17 19:12 GMT (UK)
I think I can identify Robert,who is granted probate in Thomas Jones Will,and therefore brother to John Evan.
Appropriately he appears to be Robert Evan Jones of Blaen y Cwm,Llandrillo,postcode LL21 0TE,seen in the censuses,with by 1911 a very large family(though nothing obviously connected to Edith).I think he marries a Jane Davies in 1878.

1891  RG12/4636/24/5
1901  RG13/5247/35/6

Regads
Roger

Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: CMooreddrall on Sunday 10 December 17 20:37 GMT (UK)
I think I can identify Robert,who is granted probate in Thomas Jones Will,and therefore brother to John Evan.
Appropriately he appears to be Robert Evan Jones of Blaen y Cwm,Llandrillo,postcode LL21 0TE,seen in the censuses,with by 1911 a very large family(though nothing obviously connected to Edith).I think he marries a Jane Davies in 1878.

1891  RG12/4636/24/5
1901  RG13/5247/35/6

Regads
Roger

Its really hard to say- so that census in 1871 showed John Evan to have been born in 1858 while robert said 1855. Obviously the rest of the census' show john as born 1855 which made me suspect their ages were switched- I did find another Robert Jones who married an Ann Davies 1901  RG13/5247/27/7 at Ty nant and he was born about 1858. Yours makes more sense though- I'm wondering if they estimated Johns birth year wrong and he just looked younger! It would seem an awful big coincidence that they both shared a middle name with those general birth dates. That makes me think you are right...
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: CMooreddrall on Sunday 10 December 17 20:41 GMT (UK)
In case you have not looked,Tan y Fynwent (from" o dan y mynwent" or "below the cemetery") in Newmarket(aka Trelawnyd) was probably where Llan Cottages (Bwthyn y Llan) are on this map

https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/308500/379500/12/100954

and is referred to here:-

http://www.gwaenysgorandtrelawnyd.org.uk/trelawnyd-old-trelawnyd-homes/

Bwthyn y Llan (postcode LL18 6EF) can be seen on Google Earth.

I will see if there is any remaining sign of Cynwyd House in Brighton Road.

Regards
Roger

I had contacted the Rhyl historical society about Cynwyd house but they didn't seem to know it- however its certainly possible its either gone or they just dont know.

With regards to the map- I had not seen it- but I think that's because I was looking for it when it was called Newmarket! I'm checking it out right now.

Chris
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: despair on Sunday 10 December 17 22:13 GMT (UK)
It's proving extremely frustrating trying to identify Cynwyd House positively.In censuses it is listed next to either Bodawel (?) or Beaconsfield House,Cobden Terrace and 1 Thorpe Street.In lists of visitors in The Rhyl Journal of the period it is listed next to Beaconsfield House,which is given as 8 Cobden Terrace.If you look at the attached mao,there are only 8 properties in Cobden Terrace(which is in Brighton Road),with No.8 being on the corner of Bath Street.I'll carry on trying to identify it.

https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/301500/381500/13/101329

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: CMooreddrall on Sunday 10 December 17 22:35 GMT (UK)
It's proving extremely frustrating trying to identify Cynwyd House positively.In censuses it is listed next to either Bodawel (?) or Beaconsfield House,Cobden Terrace and 1 Thorpe Street.In lists of visitors in The Rhyl Journal of the period it is listed next to Beaconsfield House,which is given as 8 Cobden Terrace.If you look at the attached mao,there are only 8 properties in Cobden Terrace(which is in Brighton Road),with No.8 being on the corner of Bath Street.I'll carry on trying to identify it.

https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/301500/381500/13/101329

Regards
Roger

Ive been having the same trouble with it. I have a feeling that its name was changed to Cynwyd only when they were there as that's the place john was born...
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: despair on Sunday 10 December 17 22:49 GMT (UK)
No doubt it was renamed when the family took up residence.I'll see if I can find it and/or neighbouring properties in the 1939 register.

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: despair on Tuesday 12 December 17 19:01 GMT (UK)
Couldn't find anything in the 1939 register.Still frustrated trying to find positive location for Cynwyd House.I have found references to two old planning applications for Beaconsfield House,which is consistently listed next to Cynwyd House.Interestingly,one has the address as Brighton Road and the other "extension of yard and back wall" is listed as Bath Street.This is possibly consistent with Besaconsfield House being synonymous with 8 Cobden Terrace on the corner of Brighton Road and Bath Street.I wonder if the building was jointly occupied at some stage? .The yellow brick building currently on that corner looks as if it is the original.
If you look at the previous map I referenced you can see Preswylfa,where Edith was in service,just above the other end of Bath Street.

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: CMooreddrall on Tuesday 12 December 17 21:40 GMT (UK)
Couldn't find anything in the 1939 register.Still frustrated trying to find positive location for Cynwyd House.I have found references to two old planning applications for Beaconsfield House,which is consistently listed next to Cynwyd House.Interestingly,one has the address as Brighton Road and the other "extension of yard and back wall" is listed as Bath Street.This is possibly consistent with Besaconsfield House being synonymous with 8 Cobden Terrace on the corner of Brighton Road and Bath Street.I wonder if the building was jointly occupied at some stage? .The yellow brick building currently on that corner looks as if it is the original.
If you look at the previous map I referenced you can see Preswylfa,where Edith was in service,just above the other end of Bath Street.

Regards
Roger

Trying to figure this bit out has been frustrating me as well- even if it changed names finding a house next to an area we have information for is strange. It is labeled as a separate dwelling on the census. Have you had any luck with finding Bodawen? Its labeled on the 1901 Census- and seems to go 7 Cobden Terrace-> Bodawen->Cynwyd->8 Cobden Terrace...
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: CMooreddrall on Tuesday 12 December 17 21:55 GMT (UK)
On the positive side if Thomas and Margaret prove to  be the correct parents for John Evan,the 1871 census gives Margaret's father to go back another generation on that side.There is a newspaper snoppet that gives John Roberts dying aged 83 in 1878 at "Pentre (late Cwm Ucha")

http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3288878/3288881/21/

Regards
Roger

So I think you might be onto something with Thomas and Margaret. I found this Postcard for Xmas in 1910 to my Great grandmother from her grandmother- Nain T Jones.

Of course the address is from Rhyl too which frustrated me because I thought i had found her death in 1888 in Corwen. Different years and location for when i thought she died. But as grandmother names are limited- It can only be this one...

Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: despair on Tuesday 12 December 17 22:38 GMT (UK)
I'm not sure whether the date is 1910 or 1916,but no matter.I'm not sure what it means yet,but the address of Elwy Villa is occupied in 1901 by Edward and Charlotte Roberts and family.The address for this family in 1911 is the same as that where Edith's brother Edward was a boarder in 1901.Perhaps some family connection may yet emerge!

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: CMooreddrall on Tuesday 12 December 17 23:55 GMT (UK)
I'm not sure whether the date is 1910 or 1916,but no matter.I'm not sure what it means yet,but the address of Elwy Villa is occupied in 1901 by Edward and Charlotte Roberts and family.The address for this family in 1911 is the same as that where Edith's brother Edward was a boarder in 1901.Perhaps some family connection may yet emerge!

Regards
Roger

Its definitely 1910 as she was living in another state in 1916 and this was where she had been living. I wonder if Margaret Roberts had another sibling besides catherine...who knows- maybe its coincidence Ediths brother stayed there.. .but does raise questions
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: despair on Wednesday 13 December 17 17:05 GMT (UK)
Hmmm.....
Clearly need to trace Jane Jones,resident 1901(and subsequent) at Elwy Villa with Conway family,in previous censuses.Given born Llangerniew(Llangernyw) I think.

1901   RG13/5236/55/26

I think this is her in 1881

RG11/5536/44/12

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: despair on Thursday 14 December 17 16:10 GMT (UK)
I'm not sure about relationships of interest yet,but here is some data relating to the Jane Jones seen at Elwy Villa in the last two censuses where  she is given as born 1822,Llangerniew,Denbighshire,and assumed author of the postcard.Her daughter Margaret given born 1844,Bagillt,Flintshire.

In 1901 she is effectively given as mother of Margaret Conway,therefore nee Jones.

Marriage of John Conway to Margaret Jones at Prescot,Lancashire in 1876.Both fathers given as Robert.

1851 census HO107/2500/588/17-Robert and Jane Jones(!822,Llangerniew) with David as in last censuses and Margaret,1844.

Robert Conway(1820,Llanasa) married Anne Jones(1824,probably Eglwysbach,Denbigghshire) at Llanasa in 1844

1851 census  HO107/2500/52/15
1861 census  RG09/4266/60/30

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: CMooreddrall on Friday 15 December 17 09:17 GMT (UK)
I'm not sure about relationships of interest yet,but here is some data relating to the Jane Jones seen at Elwy Villa in the last two censuses where  she is given as born 1822,Llangerniew,Denbighshire,and assumed author of the postcard.Her daughter Margaret given born 1844,Bagillt,Flintshire.

In 1901 she is effectively given as mother of Margaret Conway,therefore nee Jones.

Marriage of John Conway to Nargaret Jones at Prescot,Lancashire in 1876.Both fathers given as Robert.

1851 census HO107/2500/588/17-Robert and Jane Jones(!822,Llangerniew) with David as in last censuses and Margaret,1844.

Robert Conway(1820,Llanasa) married Anne Jones(1824,probably Eglwysbach,Denbigghshire) at Llanasa in 1844

1851 census  HO107/2500/52/15
1861 census  RG09/4266/60/30

Regards
Roger

I dont think Jane was the author of the postcard- as she identified herself as nain T Jones- which it doesn't look like she married a Thomas but our original thought did. I do think that the date of death originally found by the Margaret (roberts) Jones was the wrong one perhaps and occurred after 1910. I think it might have just been a case of boarding there or with family/friends. Hard to say with everyone having the same last names. I haven't had much luck looking for further records so far though.

I will try to see if I have further documents that might add more info.
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: despair on Friday 15 December 17 18:19 GMT (UK)
I'd come to the conclusion that Jane is only related to the Conways.So,the letter is a T not a J and "Nain T Jones" is Margaret,wife of Thomas.I'm still confident that Thomas died in 1884,but don't have a confident date for Margaret.She is in Rhyl in 1910,but I can't find her in 1911,but nor can I find a death record.or completeness,after Thomas dies,I think she is here:-

1891 RG12/4636/13/3
1901 RG13/5247/109/10

The Conways seem to have had a presence in Llanasa-I wonder if Jane i related to Edith somehow?

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: CMooreddrall on Saturday 16 December 17 07:59 GMT (UK)
I'd come to the conclusion that Jane is only related to the Conways.So,the letter is a T not a J and "Nain T Jones" is Margaret,wife of Thomas.I'm still confident that Thomas died in 1884,but don't have a confident date for Margaret.She is in Rhyl in 1910,but I can't find her in 1911,but nor can I find a death record.or completeness,after Thomas dies,I think she is here:-

1891 RG12/4636/13/3
1901 RG13/5247/109/10

The Conways seem to have had a presence in Llanasa-I wonder if Jane i related to Edith somehow?

Regards
Roger

I think those are her as well- the Maggie in 1901 is likely the Margaret daughter of Catherine.

As for Jane and Edith being related- I still cant find anything substantial to connect them...but certainly still in the running
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: CMooreddrall on Saturday 16 December 17 08:07 GMT (UK)
I'd come to the conclusion that Jane is only related to the Conways.So,the letter is a T not a J and "Nain T Jones" is Margaret,wife of Thomas.I'm still confident that Thomas died in 1884,but don't have a confident date for Margaret.She is in Rhyl in 1910,but I can't find her in 1911,but nor can I find a death record.or completeness,after Thomas dies,I think she is here:-

1891 RG12/4636/13/3
1901 RG13/5247/109/10

The Conways seem to have had a presence in Llanasa-I wonder if Jane i related to Edith somehow?

Regards
Roger

I found a Margaret Jones who died Oct-Nov-Dec 1916 and it was registered in Festiniog- but I cannot locate any other records to cross check any thing...
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: despair on Saturday 16 December 17 11:35 GMT (UK)
It may require some further re-thinking,but I am convinced that Margaret,wife of Thomas died in Llandrillo in 1888.The burial record gives her as 65 years old with abode as Pentrebach.When John Roberts (her father) died in 1878,the grant of probate record gives "...John Roberts of Pentrebach....probate granted to Margaret Jones(wife of Thomas Jones) of Pentrebach,daughter and next of kin."

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: CMooreddrall on Saturday 16 December 17 18:07 GMT (UK)
It may require some further re-thinking,but I am convinced that Margaret,wife of Thomas died in Llandrillo in 1888.The burial record gives her as 65 years old with abode as Pentrebach.When John Roberts (her father) died in 1878,the grant of probate record gives "...John Roberts of Pentrebach....probate granted to Margaret Jones(wife of Thomas Jones) of Pentrebach,daughter and next of kin."

Regards
Roger

Roger,

So I have an update on information- literally just received an email from a cousin (who i had only just come in contact with- here is some information for us!) About 1824 John Roberts owned Cwm Ucha Cynwyd Merioneth. He had a daughter Margaret who went on to marry Twm ap Twm (I think where the vicar of cynwyd thought about the horse thief!) and changed his name to Thomas Jones as he was being teased. He was a cousin to Ap Bychan whose father was his mothers brother. They had 4 children John Jones(who we know about), Robert (went to live at Leger, Denbigh), Catherine (Pentre Bach Llandrillo), and Susan (went to Liverpool and died there). Thomas Jones' mother (no name given) was born in 1799 and died at Pentre bach about 1886 she was called Nain Parlour. Thomas was born at Ceunant Cwm-Glanllafar near bala.

Unfortunately I cannot find anything related to Susan. This postcard still leaves a lot of questions though...like who Nain T Jones is, if in fact her grandmother did die in 1888. I do have a suggestion though- do you think it possible the person recorded for death had the name margaret but they recorded the wrong one? The possible date of death for Thomas' mother seems a bit too close to that 1888 date...I mean if we were able to find the likely person in 2 further census' it does raise questions.
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: despair on Saturday 16 December 17 18:24 GMT (UK)
It will take me a while to work through your latest information.It seems to me that the name on the postcard is Nain J Jones.If you compare the letter J in Jones with the forename initial it is remarkably simllar,with one stroke possibly missing.Given that Jane Jones is resident in 1901 and 1911,it would seem sensible for it to be her.Perhaps "Nain" has another meaning than the strict normal "Grandmother",perhaps an honorary title for a sister of Grandmother or Grandfather.Admittedly I can't yet make any family connection other than with the Cponways,but I'll carry on trying.

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: CMooreddrall on Saturday 16 December 17 19:27 GMT (UK)
It will take me a while to work through your latest information.It seems to me that the name on the postcard is Nain J Jones.If you compare the letter J in Jones with the forename initial it is remarkably simllar,with one stroke possibly missing.Given that Jane Jones is resident in 1901 and 1911,it would seem sensible for it to be her.Perhaps "Nain" has another meaning than the strict normal "Grandmother",perhaps an honorary title for a sister of Grandmother or Grandfather.Admittedly I can't yet make any family connection other than with the Cponways,but I'll carry on trying.

Regards
Roger

I know- it is an awful lot of information to take in- it took me a bit to get through it myself. I did have a thought though- if in fact it is a Nain J Jones (Though to me it just looks like a T still! But you are probably right- plus we have no capital T's to compare), I had a thought occur to me that if it is a Nain out of endearment- and there seems to be some sort of connection with Edith- that perhaps they are the grandparents of Edith- as you said her brother appeared to have stayed there... As in they spent much time with Nain? Either that or maybe just friendly? I do know my great grandmother was in a temperance group in Rhyl...Good Templers Lodge- in a photo i have they all seem to be mostly older to middle aged people. Hard to say really...I guess it is a keep digging scenario!
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: despair on Saturday 16 December 17 20:57 GMT (UK)
To tidy up one loose end for you,I'm fairly confident this is what happens to Susannah after you have identified her in Liverpool in 1871

1881 RG11/3626/61/20
Marriage to John Williams,St. Davids Liverpool,1884
1891 RG12/2974/86/54   Bootle
1901 RG13/3462/150/2   Bootle
Death 1902

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: despair on Sunday 17 December 17 17:31 GMT (UK)
I still haven't found a family relationship other than that expressed in the census between Jane Jones and the Conways.She is of course genuinely Nain J Jones in the family context at Elwy Villa in the 1911 census-so perhaps she was referred to as such in the "wider community".
Elwy Villa is listed next to the Mill Bank Inn in censuses,and,as such,is only a couple of hundred yards away from Cynwyd House and a little further from Preswylfa.

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: Wuffaluff on Wednesday 31 January 18 12:23 GMT (UK)
It may require some further re-thinking,but I am convinced that Margaret,wife of Thomas died in Llandrillo in 1888.The burial record gives her as 65 years old with abode as Pentrebach.When John Roberts (her father) died in 1878,the grant of probate record gives "...John Roberts of Pentrebach....probate granted to Margaret Jones(wife of Thomas Jones) of Pentrebach,daughter and next of kin."

Regards
Roger


My name is David Jones and am a descendant of the Thomas Jones family. I have some information that might help you. I have attempted to attach a family tree but am informed the file is too big!
Regards
Dave
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: Wuffaluff on Wednesday 31 January 18 12:59 GMT (UK)
My name is David Jones and am a descendant Thomas Jones, Cwm Ucha. I have attempted to upload my family tree but failed as the file was too big.
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: CMooreddrall on Wednesday 31 January 18 16:15 GMT (UK)
David, How wonderful- I sent you a message. Hopefully you can help fill me in on a bunch of blanks while I do the same for you. Assuming all our information is correct!

Roger thanks for the info- hopefully something will add up for us!


Chris

Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: Julie Dadswell on Monday 05 March 18 14:44 GMT (UK)
Does any



one know anything about John Ivor Jones who lived in Pentre Bach , Newmarket in 1972. He had a brother called Goronwy who was killed in the second world war.
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: CMooreddrall on Monday 05 March 18 19:25 GMT (UK)
Julie,

While I dont have that information- I had a john ivor jones in my family as well- though I know its not the same one. I read it and threw me off as I saw pentre Bach in the name which was a place another branch of my family lived- but at a different one in llandrillo.

I wish you luck. Just had to say something as it just seemed very weird to me to see those names together!

Chris


 
Does any



one know anything about John Ivor Jones who lived in Pentre Bach , Newmarket in 1972. He had a brother called Goronwy who was killed in the great war ?
Title: Re: Jones's of Newmarket + descendants
Post by: Julie Dadswell on Tuesday 06 March 18 08:44 GMT (UK)
 Thank you Chris.  It's odd , isn't it , that we could have the same antecedents and are not related.
I'm following my great aunt Dorothy and I didn't know she had this child. I shall continue with my search.... somehow .  Julie