RootsChat.Com

Research in Other Countries => Canada => Topic started by: tyrltyrl on Saturday 30 January 10 08:34 GMT (UK)

Title: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: tyrltyrl on Saturday 30 January 10 08:34 GMT (UK)
hello, does anyone know anything about the clan ian ruadh of knoydart... thankyou
macca
Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: nickgc on Saturday 30 January 10 09:20 GMT (UK)
You mean like this?  "Father John Macdonald of Alexandria, Ontario who was born in 1782 and died in 1879, compiled a genealogical tree of the Clan Ian Ruadh of Knoydart, a branch of the Macdonalds of the Loup, and he left also some genealogical details of descendants of Sliochd Ailein VcAilein, who came to Alexandria. Martin McEane VcRorie and his brother, Donald, were of the Clan Ian Ruadh, and these names appear in the list which I have given for the year 1628."

Please see http://www.moidart.org.uk/datasets/macdonaldsofkeppoch.htm

Nick
Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: tyrltyrl on Saturday 30 January 10 22:04 GMT (UK)
thanks, yes that is about as far as i have got, i believe ian ruadh was john roe macdonnell but have no proof.
macca
Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: Janice M on Tuesday 02 February 10 21:21 GMT (UK)
Glengarry County
(Book: Highland Heritage - Vol. 2)
http://www.glengarrycounty.com/TitlesLoan.html

Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: Peter MacDonald on Friday 30 September 11 02:29 BST (UK)
Hello Macca,

Just wondering if you have had any luck with your research on Clan Ian Ruadh of Knoydart?  I am attempting to verify the exact origin of my 5G Grandfather Martin MacDonald of Knoydart.  He arrived in Nova Scotia ca 1784-86 and received land on the Pictou/Antigonish County line.  Supposedly he was the person who named the area in Nova Scotia, Knoydart.  He had a brother John who came to Nova Scotia for a short time before leaving for Glengarry, Ontario.

There are a few variations from different sources as to possible lines of Martin's origin, none of which I have been able to verify to date.  Any information on Clan Ian Ruadh of Knoydart would be greatly appreciated.

Best Regards,

Peter
Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: kphammond9 on Tuesday 21 August 12 23:57 BST (UK)
Wondering if you have found any information on your Martin MacDonald. I also have a connection to him via his daughter Flora (b. abt 1785). I saw information from another forum that suggested Martin was the son of Donald, son of John, son of Angus (source: History of Antigonish, Volumes 1 and 2 - via Steve Farrell). But I think Peter was a part of that conversation to begin with. :-)
Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: TALLON on Monday 27 August 12 21:36 BST (UK)
Hello,

The Clan is John Roy MacDonald from Knoydart and he is my 3rd Great Grand Uncle.
The Father John MacDonald of Alexandria (Paster of St. Raphael's) was my 1st Cousin and the son of John Roy above.


Tal MacDonald
Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: RedMystic on Thursday 30 August 12 19:21 BST (UK)
Hi Tal,

I know that Peter MacDonald (who posted a few ahead of you in this thread) is very interested in this topic, but his occupation takes him away from situations where he can research for months at a time.

I sent him an e-mail about your post when I saw it a few days ago, so hopefully he'll check in when he can.

Cheers,
Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: Peter MacDonald on Saturday 08 September 12 05:08 BST (UK)
Wondering if you have found any information on your Martin MacDonald. I also have a connection to him via his daughter Flora (b. abt 1785). I saw information from another forum that suggested Martin was the son of Donald, son of John, son of Angus (source: History of Antigonish, Volumes 1 and 2 - via Steve Farrell). But I think Peter was a part of that conversation to begin with. :-)


Hello kphammond9,

Sorry for the late reply to your post.  I sent you my email address in a PM to your account with my email address to share my work on Martin MacDonald's Descendants.

The reference that you referred to with regard to Martin MacDonald's ancestors came from the book "Dairy of Deaths" notes of Rev John MacDonald transcribed by Father Ewen MacDonald and edited by various genealogists (namely Duncan "Darby" MacDonald and Alexander Fraser).

Father John's notes made reference to a John MacDonald who died in Cornwall, Ontario on 9 May 1858 lists John as the s/o Martin s/o Donald s/o John s/o Angus and also listed him as age 76, putting his DOB at 1782.  This DOB is the same as the date of Martin's son John's DOB as listed in Martin's 1810 Land Petition.  Although John was named in the 1810 petition, he did not receive any of the Land Grant issues in 1812.  These two events appear to indicate that Martin MacDonald had two sons named John.  One John (the eldest) who moved to Ontario prior to the 1812 Land Grant and the other who was much younger (who married Catherine Robinson).

This said I have been yet unable to find any record of Martin's brother John who moved to Glengarry, Ontario after spending a short period of time at Maryvale, Nova Scotia.

As for the Clan Ian Ruadh of Knoydart, I have corresponded with a number of individuals regarding this Sept and nobody can indicate anything pertaining to the Clan's history, traditions or geographical location.  The only thing that people point to is an unsourced genealogical line that has been created by an unknown individual(s).  The charts (in there various forms) indicate that Ian Ruadh descended from Alexander Mor, son of Donald (grandson of Somerled).

This said, in "A Diary of Deaths" edited by Duncan "Darby" MacDonald he detailed how Father John kept notes of individual families on small pieces of paper (occasionally showing a connection between two families).  None of these isolated pieces of paper were combined to make a chart by Father John especially not the Clan Ian Ruadh Genealogical chart.  The charts that exist appear to have been put together by matching names and making assumptions.  I would recommend to all to look at these charts with a critical eye and verify that your family connection to charts through other sources/resources.

My 5G Grandfather Martin MacDonald is on a few charts that show him as having a direct line to Somerled via Alexander Mor.  There is however no proof to verify that this line is indeed correct, therefore I am still searching all possible lines for Martin MacDonald (including Clan Ian Ruadh of Knoydart).  Unfortunately I have not been able to determine with any level of certainty (using a wide array of methods) who the ancestors (or even father) of Martin MacDonald were/was.

If anyone has any information they would like to add with regard to Clan Ian Ruadh of Knoydart please feel free to share. 

As well, if anyone as any insights, comments or opinions, please share as I'm sure myself and a number of other individuals would like to hear.


Best Regards,

Peter MacDonald
Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: TALLON on Saturday 08 September 12 22:07 BST (UK)
Peter,

Noticed your post regarding Ian Ruadh of Knoydart. In Donald Whyte's book he shows a Martin MacDonald from Knoydart INV to Halifax NS 1787 settled Knoydart, Antigonish Co children John and Martin Jr. This Martin Jr has children Hugh, Donald, Ronald, Angus, Mary, John and Flora. I assume this is your line and that you have this information. I also notice your line on charts that I have. One is from the library at Clan Donald on Skye and the other done by Fairbanks MacDonell. The latter was done on certain MacDonald's and MacDonell's that had Priests and Bishops in their lines. The line coming down from Ian Ruadh, Ruari, Dougall, Angus Buy, Ian, Donald, Martin has Archbishop Ronald, Rev Roderick, Rev Ronald and Rev Joseph. I assume also that this is your line. I connect to this line showing us as 8th cousins. Some years ago I purchased the personal fonds of Rev Ewen J MacDonald (St. Finnan's) who was a genealogist and put together many charts and from this and other sources I built my line back to Somerled. Eight years ago I did a DNA test along with the seven current MacDonald chiefs that confirmed our paper trail. Have tested or considered it?

Tal
Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: Peter MacDonald on Tuesday 25 September 12 14:22 BST (UK)
Peter,

Noticed your post regarding Ian Ruadh of Knoydart. In Donald Whyte's book he shows a Martin MacDonald from Knoydart INV to Halifax NS 1787 settled Knoydart, Antigonish Co children John and Martin Jr. This Martin Jr has children Hugh, Donald, Ronald, Angus, Mary, John and Flora. I assume this is your line and that you have this information. I also notice your line on charts that I have. One is from the library at Clan Donald on Skye and the other done by Fairbanks MacDonell. The latter was done on certain MacDonald's and MacDonell's that had Priests and Bishops in their lines. The line coming down from Ian Ruadh, Ruari, Dougall, Angus Buy, Ian, Donald, Martin has Archbishop Ronald, Rev Roderick, Rev Ronald and Rev Joseph. I assume also that this is your line. I connect to this line showing us as 8th cousins. Some years ago I purchased the personal fonds of Rev Ewen J MacDonald (St. Finnan's) who was a genealogist and put together many charts and from this and other sources I built my line back to Somerled. Eight years ago I did a DNA test along with the seven current MacDonald chiefs that confirmed our paper trail. Have tested or considered it?

Tal


Hello Tal,

Sorry for the delayed reply.  With regard to your last post, I have seen the reference in Donald Whyte's book to Martin MacDonald.  The reference source for this entry however is not a primary source but is from the History of Antigonish County of Nova Scotia written by Rev Rankin.  Another book by Leonard Smith states Martin's arrival as 1784, the source for this entry is Martin MacDonald's 1810 Land Petition.  The first line of family you have stated is indeed correct and verified, however the line connecting Archbishop to the Ian Ruadh line has not been verified as of yet.

Just wondering where you purchased and whether you still hold them Father Ewen MacDonald's Fonds?  I would be very interested in seeing the originals at some point in time if possible.


Regards,

Peter
Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: TALLON on Tuesday 25 September 12 23:41 BST (UK)
Peter,

The originals of Father's fonds are held by Ontario Archives in Toronto. They copied them for me on 8 - 35mm reels and I have a viewer/printer so I spent some time with them and then donated them to Maggie MacDonald Archivist at the Library of Clan Donald on Skye.

Tal
Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: Peter MacDonald on Tuesday 30 October 12 03:25 GMT (UK)
Hello everyone,

Anyone interested in learning about Clan Ian Ruadh of Knoydart, there isn't really much to tell.  The only references to the line are genealogical charts put together by Father Ewen MacDonald.  There is no written history of the Clan in any form aside from Father Ewen's charts.  Did it really exist?

This said I went to the Ontario Archives and spent the day there researching and gathering information for future review.  Anyone interested can get in without much issue, just register on line ahead of time and you can just pick-up your pass when you arrive.  The archive is located on the York University Campus in Toronto.  The best feature of this location is that you can save the micro film to your flash drive and take it home with you.

Father John MacDonald's Diary does have a great deal of genealogical information in it, however, there are only a few small charts that focus on one line with no lateral relations.  Some death entries (very few) do have extensive lineages named, these however are the exception.  Most entries have a couple of generations listed with no cross referencing to other families.

From reading over this diary and then going through Father Ewen MacDonald's Fonds it is very clear that any of the genealogical charts created by Father Ewen were not based on the work of Father John.  It appears that Father Ewen made a great number of assumptions and based relationships by mixing and matching names that matched together somewhat from Father John's Diary.  It is highly unlikely that the majority of the lines are correct (aside of course from those few individuals who had a long linage listed by Father John in his Diary).

My family is tied up into this chart most likely due to some priests and an Archbishop that descended from my 5G Grandfather Martin MacDonald.  There is a John MacDonald listed in Father John's Diary that closely matches the date of Martin's son from an 1810 Land Petition in Nova Scotia, in 1812 no John was mentioned in the actual grant indicating that he my have moved out of the area. 

John's entry in Father John's Diary mentioned that he was son of Martin, son of Donald, son of John, son of Angus.  This limited information was enough for Father Ewen MacDonald to include this line into the Clan Ian Ruadh of Knoydart Genealogy Chart.  Aside from the name Martin (although not uncommon) how many lines are there in Scottish families that are Donald son of John son of Angus???  I'm not exactly sure but I imagine a great number as there wasn't (over all) a lot of creativity when it came to picking a first name for children in that time period.

If you are a genealogist who is seeking to learn the truth of your linage and heritage, I strongly recommend that you look over what evidence was used to determine the line of your Clan Ian Ruadh genealogy.  Many genealogists based their works on that of Father Ewen's Fonds, which they claim as the work of Father John MacDonald which is an incorrect and misleading statement.  I believe the newer genealogical works based on the works of Father Ewen MacDonald (and supposedly that of Father John MacDonald) have done much to create confusion among researchers.

Unfortunately, most people who have invested any great amount of research (or very little for some) into their genealogy are very unlikely to take any sort of critical look at how they came to their conclusions.  Some might go through the "process" but rationalize as they go over their work to prevent themselves from seeing any issues or fallacies within their research.  As coming to the realization that you have been researching for the last 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years on incorrect information/assumptions is too much for many people to handle.

I hope anyone connected to the Clan Ian Ruadh Chart will take the time to critically review the evidence linking their family to the chart.  Even better go to the Ontario Archives yourself and view the Fonds in person to judge for yourself. 

"Ewan Macdonald Fonds     F 970"

If I am incorrect in anything which I have stated in this post please feel free to correct me.


Hope to hear any thoughts/comments,

Peter MacDonald
Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: TALLON on Tuesday 30 October 12 20:28 GMT (UK)
“In the ancient Celtic culture, the history and laws of the people were not written down but memorized in long lyric poems which were recited by bards, in a tradition echoed by the seanchaithe.
Seanchaithe were servants to the chiefs of the tribe and kept track of important information for their clan. They were very well respected in their clan. The seanchaithe made use of a range of storytelling conventions, styles of speech and gestures that were peculiar to the Scottish folk tradition and characterized them as practitioners of their art. Although tales from literary sources found their way into the repertoires of the seanchaithe, a traditional characteristic of their art was the way in which a large corpus of tales was passed from one practitioner to another without ever being written down.”
If the Reverend Father John MacDonald had lived a generation or two earlier in Scotland he would have been the seanchaithe of the clan. Because of the Clan system there is no other group of peoples in the world that have the mountains of great genealogical information available to them. This gathering of family histories was important to Father John as a seanchaithe but more important was because he was a priest and when he married his flock he would be sure that they were not too closely related. Father John had a third reason for making sure of his accuracy in putting his Clan Ian Ruadh together as he was a descendant of that line. This is why I have been able to fit myself into his line as we were first cousins.
Father John was a genealogist and spent 65 years compiling histories. Father Ewen J MacDonald would spend over 60 years working with Father John’s great works. The most prolific genealogists were Duncan Darby MacDonald (deceased) and Alex Fraser who put all of his together in books and in charts for us amateurs to use or not use.
The key here is that these people have opened a door for us and you can enter or not. If you do then use what you find or not but thank them for their fantastic contributions without saying that most of what they did was incorrect.
I have had Father Ewen’s personal fonds for 10 years and would say that if he had all of Father John’s works in his possession he would have used it to reproduce charts as well as create new charts of his own. Never the less this very accurate information would not have been ignored as there was no other source on the Highlanders of Glengarry County.
To say that Clan Ian Ruadh (John Roy) didn’t exist is to say there were no MacDonald’s in Knoydart. Most of the MacDonald’s of Glengarry Country came from Knoydart and descended from John Roy or Clan Ian Ruadh. My own 3rd Great Grand Father Angus Ian III MacDonald who was married to Father John’s Aunt Catherine came in 1802. He was the son of Ruari, of Angus, of Neil, of Angus, of Dougall, of Ruari and of Ian Ruadh who was my 10th Great Grand Father. The information on my line came from the works of Father John and six years ago I completed the Clan Donald DNA test to prove the line back to Somerled my 20th Great Grand Father.
Anyone thinking they may be connected to this line can prove it with a simple test.

Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: Peter MacDonald on Tuesday 30 October 12 22:23 GMT (UK)
Hello Tal,

Thank you for your reply to my last post.  Here are a couple of thoughts/comments you made on your post:

1.  I fully agree with your point that Gaelic society was an oral society that passed its laws, legends and genealogies through oral traditions.  I also agree that Father John who have had vast amounts of information if he was a few generations back.

2.  Father John recorded his works in his diary.  This diary makes no specific mention of of Clan Ian Ruadh.  Further more it does not contain any charts of the Clan Ian Ruadh.  There are a few (very few) individuals who have their lines back to John Roy son of Neal in a narrative form.  As I stated in my last post Father John did not create any charts or wrote any sort of narrative that connected the various family lines.  And I state again that the greater majority of the entries only went a few generations back, with a few that went back farther (not sure of the  number but I will tally them up the next free night I have and pass along).

3.  As I stated Father John MacDonald diary is a great genealogical work in its original form.  Please note that there are no charts of showing extended family trees are in Father John's genealogical works.  Please also note that "I do thank" Father John for this work in the form which he intended it in his diary.

4.  Father Ewen MacDonald's genealogical works were based on those of Father John MacDonald.  Father Ewen created his charts through a lot of assumptions and best fit cases of names in order to put together the entries from Father John's diary.  In doing so I feel that he did Father John's genealogical work a great disservice.

5.  Final note on Father John and Ewen MacDonald and your statement:

" The key here is that these people have opened a door for us and you can enter or not. If you do then use what you find or not but thank them for their fantastic contributions without saying that most of what they did was incorrect."

   This statement wrongly lumps together the genealogical works of Father John MacDonald and Farther Ewen MacDonald as a collective work which is not the case.  Father John's works are in his diary, which contains information which he received about the individuals that were entered.  Father John did not attempt to create charts showing the inter-relationships of the family lines his diary contained.  There is no doubt that this source in and of itself is a pretty solid resource.

   Father Ewen on the other took Father John's original work and through name matching and best fit placements created his "OWN" charts (read not Father John's charts).  This results in my believe that the vast majority of Father Ewen's would be incorrect.  This said aside from the transcription of Father John's original diary it appears that many genealogists based their works on the the Fonds of Father Ewen MacDonald (it is actual hard to tell for sure as most persons don't cite their work).

6.  As for your statement:

   "To say that Clan Ian Ruadh (John Roy) did’t exist is to say there were no MacDonald’s in Knoydart. Most of the MacDonald’s of Glengarry Country came from Knoydart and descended from John Roy or Clan Ian Ruadh."

     There is no mention of Knoydart in Father John's diary.  Clan Ian Ruadh of Knoydart is an "add-in" from Father Ewen.  I think your statement is a bit of a stretch to say there would be NO MacDonalds in Knoydart if Clan Ian Ruadh didn't exist.  this is due to the fact that the MacDonalds of Knoydart descended from Allan 2nd of Clanranald, who gave to his second son Allan, all the lands of Knoydart.  There are no historical references of any sort that I have been able to find pertaining to Clan Ian Ruadh of Knoydart.

Thank you again for your comments Tal, I can see that we have a strong difference of opinion on the works of Father Ewen MacDonald.  I only hope that this dialogue will have people take a second look at their genealogy with a more critical eye for proof and to actually get out and look up the records and Fonds in order to judge for themselves.

If anyone has any further details, information, or comments to add to this topic please join in.



Hope to hear more on this topic from others (or from you again Tal).


Peter MacDonald

Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: Peter MacDonald on Tuesday 30 October 12 22:51 GMT (UK)
I forgot to ask whether or not anyone is aware of any other original works that reference Clan Ian Ruadh of Knoydart?

Peter MacDonald
Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: TALLON on Wednesday 31 October 12 02:16 GMT (UK)
The following are three exerps from a 5 page letter belonging to but not written by Father Ewen J MacDonald:

Sliochd Ailein Vic Ailein - MacDonald’s of Knoydart, Scotland

This was a branch of the Clanranald, and a branch that disappeared territorially in 1611, when the lands they possessed became the property of the Glengarry branch etc....

Another branch of the Clan Donald (but not the Clanranald) had some of its members in Knoydart, Scotland, known as Clan Ian Ruadh, a sept of MacDonald’s of the Loup. Descendants of this branch also came to Alexandria, Ontario in 1784, or thereafter etc............

Those who remained in Knoydart no doubt were to some extent displaced in their lands by clansmen of the Glengarry branch. Father John MacDonald of Alexandria, Ontario, who was born in 1782 and died in 1879, compiled a genealogical tree of the Clan Ian Ruadh of Knoydart, a branch of the MacDonald’s of the Loup, and he left also some genealogical details of descendants of Silochd Ailein Vic Ailein, who came to Alexandria.  Martin McEane Vc Rorie and his brother, Donald, were of the Clan Ian Ruadh, and these names appear in the list which I have given for the year 1628.

March 13, 1940                                MacIan
Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: Peter MacDonald on Wednesday 31 October 12 03:08 GMT (UK)
Hello Tal,

I am very familiar with that passage.  You actually sent me a copy of that document a few years ago.  It is not a letter but a transcription of documents from Scottish Records.  Prior to you sending me that document I had already come across it on the Moidart History group website.  Anyone interested can see the information in question on the following link:

http://www.moidart.org.uk/datasets/macdonaldsofkeppoch.htm

I was originally hopeful when reading it that I could make a connection from my 5G Grandfather Martin MacDonald (born ca 1755) to "Martin McEane Vc Rorie ", unfortunately I have been unable to do so.

The passage which you quoted in your post are the author's comments after a transcribed from "...1614 there appears on record in the Glengarry Charter Chest a wadset..."  the actual transcribed entry makes no mention of the Clan Ian Ruadh.

As such it is my belief that the transcriber of the original documents and author of the comments after the transcription was in correspondence with Father Ewen MacDonald.  Father Ewen MacDonald in 1944 had sent a chart and an accompanying letter to my 2nd cousin 2R Hugh Martin MacDonald (born 1899).  Father Ewen stated in the letter which was written on Department of Defence Letterhead that the was put together "using various sources".

This letter strengthens the case that Father Ewen "put things together" in the genealogy chart sent to my cousin and also that MacIan's March 13, 1940 comments about the Clan Ian Ruadh were most likely formed and shaped by information passed along from Father Ewen.

Anyone have on further information pertaining to Clan Ian Ruadh?  Or care to comment on the sources of information pertaining to Clan Ian Ruadh that have already been mentioned?  If so please post.

I am hoping to find truth what ever it may be.  If this leads me to a brick wall that will never be passed so be it.  I would rather stay stuck at my 5G Grandfather than make unsupported claims that bring me back further and confuse other researchers in the process. 


Peter
Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: docmac1958 on Friday 10 January 14 21:29 GMT (UK)
I have a family tree of Clan Donald that is hand written and appears to be quite old. I received it from my father who received it from my great uncle, Monsignor Ranald MacDonald. I originally thought he had written it, but it was stored in a tube that had a mailing address TO Msgr Ranald MacDonald. There is no authors name on the document (24" X 35"). There are a few dates with the names and an occasional comment or title. There are only a few females listed. It actually has the line extending back MANY generations prior to Somerled and even has the line extending back to Conn, Ard Righ. It does name Ian Ruadh and under the name (Clan Ian Ruadh of Knoydart). The line from Somerled to Martin is as listed: Somerled,Reginald, Donald, Alastair Mor, Hector Ard, Hector Og, Charles, Ewen, Angus Buidhe, Niel, Ian Ruadh, Roderick, Dugall, John, Angus, Ian (John), Donald, Martin, Ewen, Ronald (Archbishop of Pictou). I believe there are some errors in the line and there certainly many siblings omitted.
I have just made some photographic archival pictures of this document. The original is getting framed and returned to my mother. I will write again to discuss my own personal line in Clan Donald.
Hope this will add to the discussion.
Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: ronzinck on Sunday 19 January 14 01:27 GMT (UK)
Hello:

Peter MacDonald passed this link on to me today. I am working on a family that I believe came to Glengarry Co., possibly on the 'MacDonald' from Knoydart. I do not know if the McLellan family was in the same group but my notes from Duncan 'Darby' MacDonald indicates that they were from Knoydaart. I attached a chart for your reference. I would interested in your opinion.

  I  noted the mention of Fr. Ewen MacDonald's work; I have been copying/scanning  portions of them at the Archives of Ontario.  I was not aware that one could purchase them? 

I am always willing to share what I have with other researchers.

Regards,

Ron Zinck


Peter,

Noticed your post regarding Ian Ruadh of Knoydart. In Donald Whyte's book he shows a Martin MacDonald from Knoydart INV to Halifax NS 1787 settled Knoydart, Antigonish Co children John and Martin Jr. This Martin Jr has children Hugh, Donald, Ronald, Angus, Mary, John and Flora. I assume this is your line and that you have this information. I also notice your line on charts that I have. One is from the library at Clan Donald on Skye and the other done by Fairbanks MacDonell. The latter was done on certain MacDonald's and MacDonell's that had Priests and Bishops in their lines. The line coming down from Ian Ruadh, Ruari, Dougall, Angus Buy, Ian, Donald, Martin has Archbishop Ronald, Rev Roderick, Rev Ronald and Rev Joseph. I assume also that this is your line. I connect to this line showing us as 8th cousins. Some years ago I purchased the personal fonds of Rev Ewen J MacDonald (St. Finnan's) who was a genealogist and put together many charts and from this and other sources I built my line back to Somerled. Eight years ago I did a DNA test along with the seven current MacDonald chiefs that confirmed our paper trail. Have tested or considered it?

Tal
Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: amh155 on Sunday 28 September 14 04:35 BST (UK)
Hello,
I read with interest about the families of Ian Ruadh, and have a query about more recent descendants.
I am searching the ancestors of Father (Roderick) Andrew McDonell (1870-1960). His mother was Margaret McDonald from Knoydart , born about 1838. On her marriage to Duncan McDonell from Glengarry her parents are listed as Roderick (ie Ruari Ruadh, son of Angus, son of Ruari, son of Neil etc) and Henrietta both McDonald.
On searching the census I have found Roderick and Penelope McDonald at Knoydart in 1841  with Margaret age 3 and Angus 6mths. Could Penelope be a mistranscription for Henrietta, saying Henny could be mistaken for Penny?
Does anyone have knowledge of these people?
Regards,
AMH
Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: matkinson on Wednesday 08 June 16 03:46 BST (UK)
Hi,  My name is Marion (nee McDonell) and I am related to the clan in New Zealand and also in other parts of Australia.  My grandfather, Duncan and wife Mary (Duncan, son of Donald and grandson of Duncan and great grandson of Donald) came to Australia and settled in Queensland.  We are definitely of the same clan and I would love to be in contact with you.

(*)

(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.

Would love to hear from you and exchange information.  Duncan was the brother of Alexander and Catherine and father of my grandfather, Michael McDonell.  Duncan and his wife Mary - who came to Australia are both buried in Rockhampton, Queensland.
Please contact me as I would love to hear from you.
Regards
Marion
Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: gazzamacca on Tuesday 07 February 17 12:06 GMT (UK)
Hello Macca,

Just wondering if you have had any luck with your research on Clan Ian Ruadh of Knoydart?  I am attempting to verify the exact origin of my 5G Grandfather Martin MacDonald of Knoydart.  He arrived in Nova Scotia ca 1784-86 and received land on the Pictou/Antigonish County line.  Supposedly he was the person who named the area in Nova Scotia, Knoydart.  He had a brother John who came to Nova Scotia for a short time before leaving for Glengarry, Ontario.

There are a few variations from different sources as to possible lines of Martin's origin, none of which I have been able to verify to date.  Any information on Clan Ian Ruadh of Knoydart would be greatly appreciated.

Best Regards,

Peter


Hello Peter, this a photo of John McDonell's head stone at Auchterawe cemetry, near Fort Augustus.
This is as far back as i can go ...so far.
macca
Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: Rosinish on Tuesday 07 February 17 13:43 GMT (UK)
Hi Folks,

I have just had a quick run through this old thread (not related)!

No-one has mentioned that "Ian Ruadh" simply means Red haired John which would probably be used to differentiate him from another John.

There was also a mention of "Angus Buidhe" (Buidhe being yellow).

I'm unsure if the 'Buidhe' reference has anything to do with a connection with the 'Bata Buidhe' (Yellow stick)?

A site worth a look at which is very informative:

https://westernisles.wordpress.com/2009/01/04/welcome/


Annie



Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: Peter MacDonald on Sunday 03 December 17 19:52 GMT (UK)
I have a family tree of Clan Donald that is hand written and appears to be quite old. I received it from my father who received it from my great uncle, Monsignor Ranald MacDonald. I originally thought he had written it, but it was stored in a tube that had a mailing address TO Msgr Ranald MacDonald. There is no authors name on the document (24" X 35"). There are a few dates with the names and an occasional comment or title. There are only a few females listed. It actually has the line extending back MANY generations prior to Somerled and even has the line extending back to Conn, Ard Righ. It does name Ian Ruadh and under the name (Clan Ian Ruadh of Knoydart). The line from Somerled to Martin is as listed: Somerled,Reginald, Donald, Alastair Mor, Hector Ard, Hector Og, Charles, Ewen, Angus Buidhe, Niel, Ian Ruadh, Roderick, Dugall, John, Angus, Ian (John), Donald, Martin, Ewen, Ronald (Archbishop of Pictou). I believe there are some errors in the line and there certainly many siblings omitted.
I have just made some photographic archival pictures of this document. The original is getting framed and returned to my mother. I will write again to discuss my own personal line in Clan Donald.
Hope this will add to the discussion.

docmac1958,

We are cousins please PM me.


Peter MacDonald
Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: sarah on Sunday 03 December 17 20:38 GMT (UK)
Hi Peter,

You could pm docmac, as he is a new user he is unable to fully access the pm's until he has made another post on the forum.

Regards

Sarah
Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: Peter MacDonald on Sunday 03 December 17 21:16 GMT (UK)
Hi Peter,

You could pm docmac, as he is a new user he is unable to fully access the pm's until he has made another post on the forum.

Regards

Sarah

Thank you Sarah.
Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: Peter MacDonald on Sunday 03 December 17 21:21 GMT (UK)
docmac1958,

Your PM Box is Full.


Peter MacDonald
Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: sarah on Sunday 03 December 17 21:27 GMT (UK)
Hi Peter,

He will be unable to access the PM's until he has made another post  ;)

Regards

Sarah
Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: Peter MacDonald on Sunday 03 December 17 21:32 GMT (UK)
Hi Peter,

He will be unable to access the PM's until he has made another post  ;)

Regards

Sarah


Thank you again Sarah  :)

Peter
Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: Peter MacDonald on Wednesday 19 September 18 01:44 BST (UK)
I have a family tree of Clan Donald that is hand written and appears to be quite old. I received it from my father who received it from my great uncle, Monsignor Ranald MacDonald. I originally thought he had written it, but it was stored in a tube that had a mailing address TO Msgr Ranald MacDonald. There is no authors name on the document (24" X 35"). There are a few dates with the names and an occasional comment or title. There are only a few females listed. It actually has the line extending back MANY generations prior to Somerled and even has the line extending back to Conn, Ard Righ. It does name Ian Ruadh and under the name (Clan Ian Ruadh of Knoydart). The line from Somerled to Martin is as listed: Somerled,Reginald, Donald, Alastair Mor, Hector Ard, Hector Og, Charles, Ewen, Angus Buidhe, Niel, Ian Ruadh, Roderick, Dugall, John, Angus, Ian (John), Donald, Martin, Ewen, Ronald (Archbishop of Pictou). I believe there are some errors in the line and there certainly many siblings omitted.
I have just made some photographic archival pictures of this document. The original is getting framed and returned to my mother. I will write again to discuss my own personal line in Clan Donald.
Hope this will add to the discussion.

Hello docmac1958,

Would like to get in touch with you as we are cousins.  I have a fair bit of research completed that I would like to share with you.

Peter MacDonald (s/o Ronald, s/o Peter, s/o Mark, s/o Angus, s/o Hugh, s/o Hugh, s/o Martin Jr, s/o Martin Sr, s/o Donald, s/o John, s/o Angus)
Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: kfrye173 on Thursday 16 January 20 03:47 GMT (UK)
Hello,

I descend from Archibald Roy MacDonell 1751-1843 Char 9C4N married Ann MacDonell 1768 -1855 father of "the Banker" line in Charlottenburgh. He came on the Ship McDonald in 1786-7.

I connected with the St Raph's cemetery groundskeeper and discovered he had polished the family headstone indicating we share descent from Archibald (ic Findley ic Archibald ic Donald) and very clearly on the headstone it indicated he was "from Knoydart" just to remove any confusion, I guess.

What has me curious as to this Ian Roy string, is that Arch's brother is john roy and his son is john roy and a number of his descendants keep the roy, as well, for middle names for a few generations

Of course this doesn't mean Clan Ian Roy, but certainly starts to look like it might.  If this lineage looks familiar to any documented lineages mentioned here or other, I'd love to hear about it. 

Great work by all involved in this string, really enjoyed the passionate debate and loved the scottish headstone with "Clan Ian Ruadh" chiseled in it... a real debate jaw-dropper, rarely get that kind of validation from this time period.

Thanks for all your efforts!
Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: Peter MacDonald on Sunday 07 June 20 17:19 BST (UK)
Just an update on my/our research into clan Ian Ruadh of Knoydart as paper trails and Y DNA seems to support each other. 

I started using genetics in 2010 to assist with my MacDonald paternal ancestry. Up until this point I had my line traced back to my 5x Great Grandfather Martin MacDonald who was born in 1755 and passed away in 1836 in Knoydart, Nova Scotia (the area he settled in 1785, which he is attributed to naming after where he emigrated from in Scotland). The results of my first Y DNA test indicated that my paternal line was not of the Clan Donald Chiefly lines and I would have to search elsewhere for the origins of direct paternal line. Overlapping with the timeframe which I received my results I became aware of Martin MacDonald (1755-1836) being included in genealogical charts from the Glengarry, Ontario area of Canada. Further to the knowledge of these charts it was also discovered that Martin’s son John MacDonald died in the Glengarry, Ontario area in 1858 where his death was recorded by the St Columbian Roman Catholic Church and also by a priest (Father John MacDonald) who kept genealogical records of Scottish emigrants. In Father John’s diary, the death of John MacDonald records him as coming from Nova Scotia and being the son of Martin, son of Donald, son of John, son of Angus.  Heading back to the genealogical charts …. Although the charts listed the names of ancestors, genealogists (both professional and amateur) where unable to answer basic questions pertaining to Clan Iain Ruadh, such as an overall history of the Clan, timeline or geographic origins. One major issue with the charts showed the Clan Chiefs to be of the Haplogroup R1A, where I was R1B. After playing around with this idea of descending from Clan Iain Ruadh, I eventually wrote off my Family’s inclusion onto these charts. I believed at the time Martin MacDonald’s mentioned as a
mistake and/or possibly fabricated and continued my searching for my paternal ancestry elsewhere, even though I did have paternal Y DNA matches from the Glengarry area of Canada (with genealogies not showing a linkage to my paternal line).

My belief of not belonging to Clan Iain Ruadh was put to rest in February 2017 when I received an email from Garry MacDonell Garry had a Y DNA match with me and upon further testing we were able to determine we were both positive for the SNP BY154, which indicated a fairly recent (in genealogical terms) common paternal ancestor. Garry and I had not shared any type of research, however both of our Families had traditions of descending from Clan Iain Ruadh. Any remote disbelieve of descending from Clan Iain Ruadh melted away upon receiving a gravestone picture from Garry of the Auchterawe Roman Catholic burial ground in Inverness, Scotland. The gravestone belongs to Garry’s 3x Great Grandfather John MacDonell, on the gravestone (which was erected by John MacDonell’s son Captain Ewen Macdonell) “..John MacDonell of Clan Iain Ruadh..”. This connection was the motivation I needed to keep my research going.

My research had another two breaks with two testers from the Glengarry, Ontario area who had family traditions and paper trails of paternal descent from Clan Ian Ruadh. Both testers have matched closely to myself and other persons who are BY154+ and have genealogies that actually appear to fit into the older genealogical charts from the Glengayy, Ontario area I previously mentioned. One of these tester's ancestors (a father and son) where Loyalists who petitioned for Land in the Glengarry area. In their petitions, the son Duncan McDonell states that he was “from Glen Morrison, Late of Tryon County, N.Y. Province…came to Canada in 1780”.  The father, John McDonell states at the time of the petition he was from “…Lot 17, Cornwall Township, N. Johnson, Late of
Tryon County, N. York Province…”

This is an area for further research, perhaps the family when in Scotland relocated from Knoydart to Glenmoriston, however it is most likely that the was originally from Glenmoriston. Important to note that there is a Clan Iain Ruadh MacDonald Sept that originated in Glenmoriston.

While I have had the opportunity to connect with my MacDonald kin and have been forming a picture of to whom and how we are related to one another through a combination of traditional paper trails and advanced Y DNA testing, there is still much more research to be done.

Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: kfrye173 on Sunday 07 June 20 18:31 BST (UK)
That's Great news Peter, Congrat's, We will have some additional DNA results in the next couple months as my 3rd cousin Steve MacDonell, who also descends from the Knoydart MacDonell lineage from my prior post, has sent in his DNA to FTDNA for a 111 marker Y test.  It will be included in several of the FTDNA Surname projects.  McD, Scotland McD and Scottish Y DNA Surname projects.  Please do join the MCD surname project on FTDNA if you haven't already, it's one of the largest projects and very robust. 
Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: Peter MacDonald on Sunday 07 June 20 21:39 BST (UK)
Is your cousin Steve MacDonell a direct paternal descendant from Archibald Roy MacDonell 1751-1843 Char 9C4N (married Ann MacDonell 1768 -1855)?  Alex W Fraser's notes show Archibald Roy MacDonell (1751-1843) as the son of Finlay MacDonell, however doesn't show any further ancestry on Finlay.  I will have a look on other charts, as I recall reading the "banker" in relation to genealogies from the Glengarry, Ontario area.
Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: kfrye173 on Sunday 07 June 20 22:09 BST (UK)
Yes, from said arch roy to john roy to ranald rory... the latter two were from Ken C3 N13 and Steve's father grew up there. 

Arch's lineage going back is arch ic findley ic arch ic donald.  Of the lineages that seem to exist from knoydart, I haven't found a known good match for it, thus the Y DNA. 

The Bankers come from a different s/o Arch's  - alexander arch roy, his son alex "sandy" roy was the banker.
Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: Peter MacDonald on Thursday 30 September 21 13:27 BST (UK)
Wondering whether anyone reading this thread has a paper tail or a Family Tradition  of being a direct paternal descendant (or has a Father, brother, or male 1st cousin who is) of Clan iain Ruadh?  If so, very interested to hear from you.  Please post a reply.
Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: brentmacd on Monday 28 February 22 17:56 GMT (UK)
Wondering whether anyone reading this thread has a paper tail or a Family Tradition  of being a direct paternal descendant (or has a Father, brother, or male 1st cousin who is) of Clan iain Ruadh?  If so, very interested to hear from you.  Please post a reply.

I don't have hard evidence, or surviving oral tradition, but my own paper trail stops with Duncan McDonald and Jonat Stotard, who flourished in 1663. I've run across quite a few ancestry trees who place Duncan as either son or grandson of Ruari Mac Ian Ruadh. I've not found any way to verify this connection on paper, but I am waiting on results from a why DNA test through the Clan Donald DNA Project.
Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: Peter MacDonald on Sunday 10 April 22 21:12 BST (UK)
Wondering whether anyone reading this thread has a paper tail or a Family Tradition  of being a direct paternal descendant (or has a Father, brother, or male 1st cousin who is) of Clan iain Ruadh?  If so, very interested to hear from you.  Please post a reply.

I don't have hard evidence, or surviving oral tradition, but my own paper trail stops with Duncan McDonald and Jonat Stotard, who flourished in 1663. I've run across quite a few ancestry trees who place Duncan as either son or grandson of Ruari Mac Ian Ruadh. I've not found any way to verify this connection on paper, but I am waiting on results from a why DNA test through the Clan Donald DNA Project.

Good day Brent, interested to hear whether have you received any your Y DNA results as of yet?  Which test did you take (if you don’t mind me asking)?
Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: Gus58 on Sunday 23 April 23 15:44 BST (UK)
Does anyone here have a Gedmatch id? My fathers is SG7561391 We are McDonald of Knoydart according to Clan Donald DNA.
Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: Peter MacDonald on Sunday 23 April 23 17:17 BST (UK)
GUS58,

What is your Father's clan Donald Code number?  Do you know what group he was placed within?  Did he take a Y DNA test?
Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: Gus58 on Monday 24 April 23 08:35 BST (UK)
Clan Donald id is &4QIZ5, 2nd one listed under Clanranald in the bigY results.
Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: Peter MacDonald on Monday 24 April 23 11:29 BST (UK)
If you are on Facebook, I would recommend joining the group "MacDonnell /MacDonell Glengarry Genealogy”.
Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: Gus58 on Monday 24 April 23 11:38 BST (UK)
Any reason why? We are neither McDonnell or Glengarry…
Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: Peter MacDonald on Monday 24 April 23 11:57 BST (UK)
Knoydart MacDonalds as you likely already know were a cadet line of Clanranald.  The family formal lost their lands in 1611 when they fell to the possession of Glengarry.  The FB group is largerly made up of persons who’s ancestor emigrated to the Glengarry area of Eastern Ontario.  There has been a significant amount of genealogy work by the descendants of the emmigrants.

Knoydart as been cleared at least twice which makes research of the lines that lived there a bit more complex.

There is a short write up on the Knoydart MacDonald who were a cadet of ClanRanald by Norman H MacDonald in his book The Clan Ranald of Garmoran: A History of the MacDonalds of ClanRanald.
Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: Gus58 on Monday 24 April 23 12:15 BST (UK)
The lands were taken by parliament for excessive raiding of Glengarry lands. Kevin Eugene of the Canadian Glengarry Sandfields was our nearest dna relative till very recently when another Australian line was tested. Kevin Eugene and our line had a MRCA in about 1610, around the time of the last of the Knoydart McDonalds. Our lot came from Loch Hourne, I suspect Arnisdale. Other uncles ended up at Sourlies Knoydart, Canada and New Zealand. My ggg grandfather sold a farm at Glenelg to emigrate out here to Australia.
Title: Re: clan ian ruadh of knoydart
Post by: Rosinish on Monday 01 May 23 03:41 BST (UK)
This thread may be of interest/help too...

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=626038.9

Annie