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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: K Rees on Thursday 15 April 10 00:55 BST (UK)
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I am researching the Samuel Tomkins and Elizabeth Ann Petch family who married St. Saviour, Southwark. 25/2/1782. I see that one of the witnesses was John William Tomkins. Assuming that he was a brother, then he maybe a John William Tomkins who married Sarah Worsfold 21 Oct 1790 St. Mary, Newington, Southwark.
Has anyone knowledge of possible baptisms for children of John and Sarah Tomkins. It is possible that he was an accountant and the above Samuel, a banker. Elizabeth's parents were Dr. William Petch and Mary Ellis.
Keith (Aus)
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Hi
If they were a banking family then you would expect them to leave wills
Prerogative Court of Canterbury
Will of Samuel Tomkins, Banker of Lombard Street , City of London 02 February 1849 PROB 11/2088
possible wills of interest
Will of Samuel Tomkins, Gentleman of Newington Butts , Surrey 23 April 1808 PROB 11/1478
Will of John William Tomkins of Walworth , Surrey Date 13 November 1817 PROB 11/1598
It looks like John William may have been buried at Bunhill Fields non-conformist burial ground
Samuel may have been buried at Maze Pond, Southwark (Baptist)
Were the Tomkins you are interested in non-conformists?
Regards
Valda
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Thank you Valda, both for your quick response and assistance.
I did get the Will of Samuel Tomkins of Lombard Street, and I believe that his wife will be Eliza Alicia Smith. I am sure that there will be some tie in.
I will now get the Will of John William Tomkins. I see that there is a child to John and Sarah Tomkins bp 17/10/1791 Pavement Chapel, New North Road, Independent, Hoxton. This is interesting as Samuel Tomkins and Elizabeth Ann Petch also have their chn baptised in this church from 1783 to 1790, then my Martha Lee Tomkins and the next sibling Samuel Tomkins are bp AllHollows, Bread Street.
There are people on ancestry.com who have a connection with a John William Tomkins b 1796, who marries a Maria Nutting. But they may have only a guess of his birthdate. I will try and contact them.
There is a Will on the internet for Elizabeth Ann Petch's mother Mary Ellis, which supplies a little information.
Rumours, which get stretched over the years, and twofold in the Colonies when someone is trying to impress; however, Elizabeth Ann Petch is suppose to be an illegit of George 111 and raised by the court doctor and lady-in-waiting. My research shows that she is the first named child of Dr. William Petch and a lady - Mary Ellis. She married the merchant Samuel Tomkins who visited George Court. Close, but not close enough yet for me. There was a portrait of Elizabeth Petch with a hand written document with some truths that I can now verify.
Keith Aus
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Hi
Interestingly of all the male monarchs George III is the one that stands out as having a long lasting and happy marriage.
'George remarkably never took a mistress (in contrast with his grandfather and his sons), and the couple enjoyed a genuinely happy marriage'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_III_of_the_United_Kingdom
30th May 1809 St Mary Woolnoth City of London
Samuel Tomkins of this parish widower
Eliza Alicia Isabella Smith? spinster of the parish of St ?
married by licence, both signed
Witnesses Richard and Mary Ann Lea, W Willis and others I can't read
Baptisms at St Mary Lambeth
21st December 1814 born 27th November
Alicia Ame Tomkins parents Samuel Tomkins and Eliza Alicia Isabella, South Lambeth, father's occupation banker
followed by
William Groom baptised 23rd October 1816
Anne Lydia 25th November 1818
Mary Jane 25th January 1822
and John Newton baptised 24th August 1812
1841 census HO107 1083/5 folio 6
Albion Place Christchurch Southwark
Saml Tomkins 80 Banker not born Surrey
Alicia Tomkins 61 born Ireland?
John Newton Tomkins 25 Surgeon born Surrey
Wm Graham Tomkins 25 Engineer born Surrey
Ann Lydia Tomkins 20
Mary Jane Tomkins 20
adult ages on the 1841 census, those over 15, usually rounded down to the nearest 5
Gentleman's Magazine 1856
At Russell Place Fitzroy Square aged 79 Eliza Alicia Isabella widow of Samuel Tomkins esq
Monthly Magazine 1808
At St Mary Woolnoth Samuel Tomkins esq banker to Miss Alicia Smith only daughter of Admiral Smith
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda,
Thank you for both your reference re- George 111 and secondly, your recommendation to go back and research for other Wills. I purchased a few Tomkins Wills and scored a couple of winners.
The Will of Samuel Tomkins prob 11/1610 (27 Aug 1817) of Carpenters Buildings, London Wall, proved 21 Nov 1818 is indeed my ancestor, and the Will mentions that his daughter Martha Rees was left things in trust (bp 10/12/1792 St. Mildred, Bread St). Samuel devised that he should be buried at Burnhill Fields. It is of interest that John William Tomkins (Senior) also requested that he be buried in the family ..... Burnhills Fields. This strongly suggests that the John William Tomkins who witnessed the wedding of Samuel Tomkins and Elizabeth Ann Petch, in 1782 at St. Saviour, Southwark, was indeed his brother. It also indicates that this family of Tomkins MAY HAVE originally centred around Southwark.
Martha and John Rees married in 1810, but as far as we know did not start producing offspring until 1820. It is believed that they both continued their education.
Thank you
Keith Rees
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Hi
Martha would have been 18 in 1810 and 28 in 1820. As a woman her education as such would have been sufficient at 18. With illness and death always hovering neither the rich nor the poor could afford to wait around in a marriage until the woman was 28 to begin having children.
Do you have any wills for Martha and her husband?
The memorial inscriptions at Bunhill were transcribed in 1869
http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/Corporation/LGNL_Services/Environment_and_planning/Parks_and_open_spaces/City_Gardens/bunhill.htm
Regards
Valda
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Once again Valda, your assistance and opinions are welcome and most appreciated. I had also thought that 10 years was certainly a long gap from marriage in 1810, before the first known child Mary Ann Rees b.1 Apr 1820 George Court London and bp 23 Apr 1820 St. Benet Paul's Wharf. So maybe, I should look for additional children in London. Although, the Will of her father Samuel Tomkins is difficult to read, it does say that sons John and Samuel ... retain in trust for Martha Rees .. maybe it does say her son's use ... Thus, there looks like a son and I would say born c1810 in that case, when a newspaper article announced their marriage in London 1810.
John and Martha Rees left for Pembroke in 1820, where John practiced law and they had 5 more children. John's father David Rees of Haverfordwest died in 1837 leaving many farms. Unfortunately, John died the following year followed quickly by two of his brothers Lt. Willam Lee Rees and Dr. James Lee Rees. I traced Martha to St. Augustines Bristol in 1841 with the 3 youngest chn under the name Rus, before Martha emigrated to Aus in 1844.
I now believe that Martha's Will was sent back from Aus to be proved. So, I will need to see if there is a record of that. Martha died in Richmond, Melbourne 1865.
Keith
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Hi
Have you searched the Welsh will database?
http://cat.llgc.org.uk/cgi-bin/gw/chameleon?skin=profeb&lng=en
The probate service holds all wills after 1858
http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/1176.htm
Regards
Valda
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Once again thank you Valda.
I had a quick look throughthe HMCS for Martha, but now will look through the Welsh records.
We had previously looked at James Rees Administration Bond of 1838. This document also helped me start tracing the family line of the David Rees of Westbury Hill and his wife Esther Venables, as being my John's first cousin. A number of John's chn were also born at Westbury Hill.
Back to the Will of Samuel Tomkins, no the word I thought was son is "own". Martha was left five per cent which was to be put in trust by her cousins John and Samuel Tomkins, co execs
"for her use"
Keith
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Hi
Earlier children may of course have not survived. As they married in Essex if they lived there then finding baptisms of children is less easy since the IGI has such poor coverage of the county.
The probate indexes after 1858 have been microfiched up to about 1948. I think somewhere like SAG or large libraries in Australia may hold them. They are not online.
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda
A new find - the reputation of George 111 remains in tact as you suggest .....
What about Prince Edward, Duke of Norfolk his brother!!!!!!!
St James' Chronicle or the British Evening Post
April 23 1767 Issue 959
William Petch esq. Page to his Royal Highness the Duke of York is appointed Page to His Majesty.
My ancestor in question Elizabeth Ann Petch was born 1763, as the daughter of William Petch and Mary Ellis. The exaggerated Australian folkore has her as the Hon. Dorothy Petcher, raised by Dr. Petcher and his wife the lady in waiting of George 111.
What is your understanding of the term page? Could it also include that William Petch was the court physician?
Research also links Elizabeth Ann Petch as marrying Samuel Tomkins, the merchant of Bread Street, which also matches the folklore.
I am getting closer.
Regards,
Keith
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The Times, Monday, Sep 08, 1817; pg. 3
DIED - On Friday last, at his house in Walworth, Mr. John William Tomkins, of the Victualling Office, aged 62.
The Times, Wednesday, Oct 22, 1856; pg. 1
DEATH - On the 17th. inst., at Russel-place, Fitzroy-square, Eliza Alicia Isabella, widow of the late Samuel Tomkins, Esq., aged 79
Ian C
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The Morning Post and Gazetteer (London, England), Thursday, August 27, 1801
DIED - On Saturday last, at South Lambeth, Mrs Tomkins, wife of Mr Samuel Tomkins
The Morning Post (London, England), Saturday, June 02, 1832
On the 1st John Farly LEITH married Alicia Anne, eldest d/o Samuel - edited
The London Dispatch and People's Political and Social Reformer (London, England), Sunday, December 16, 1838
DIED - On the 26th ult., Mrs Mary Tomkins, of Rotherhithe, in her 87th year, relict of the late Mr. John Tomkins, of the above parish
The Standard (London, England), Saturday, January 13, 1849
DIED - On the 11th inst., at Russell-place, Fitzroy-square, Mr Samuel Tomkins, Esq., aged 87
The Morning Post (London, England), Saturday, August 08, 1857
Editted - On the 5th inst Dr Plarr, of Strasbourg to Mary Jane, youngest d/o the late S Tomkins, Russell-street, Fitzroy-square
Ian C
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Thanks Ian,
The Tomkins are a very complicated lot - mainly merchants around London Wall area; however, one branch was in the Walworth, Rotherlithe area.
To add to this, my ancestor Elizabeth Ann Petch left her London area of her parents (Holborn) to marry Samuel Tomkins 1782 at St. Saviour, Southwark, Surrey.
John William Tomkins (b.1755) is definitely his brother, as are nephews John and Samuel (as per Executors of his Will). There is an unmarried William Tomkins of New Broad Street, also a merchant (b.1743- 1827), who also left my ancestor Martha Rees, the daughter of Samuel and Elizabeth Ann Tomkins, an annuity as well as her father..
Regards,
Keith
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Hi
George III's brother the Duke of York would have been old enough to father children in 1763
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Edward,_Duke_of_York_and_Albany
A page was a royal courtier who had domestic duties
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Page_of_the_Backstairs
The usage of the title 'Honorable'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Honourable
A lady in waiting serves a Queen or princess and is nearly always a member of the nobility with a title - Lady for instance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady-in-waiting
There is no evidence from the Petch baptisms or marriage of a royal connection
2nd December 1763 All Hallows London Wall
Elizabeth Anne daughter of William and Mary Petch
WILLIAM PETCH
MARY ELLIS
Marriage: 27 JAN 1763 Saint Anne Soho, Westminster, London
MARY ELLIS PETCH
Christening: 14 APR 1766 Saint Martin In The Fields, Westminster, London
Father: WILLIAM PETCH
Mother: MARY
GEORGE ELLIS PETCH
Christening: 10 APR 1768 Saint Martin In The Fields, Westminster, London
Father: WILLIAM PETCH
Mother: MARY
Prerogative Court of Canterbury will
Will of George Ellis Petch, Doctor of Physic of Saint James Clerkenwell , Middlesex
Date 22 December 1831
Catalogue reference PROB 11/1793
It looks likely he was buried at Bunhill Fields
Letters of administration (with the will annexed) were proved on 10th April 1867 in the Principal Registry for Martha Rees who died 20th January 1865 in Australia.
Regards
Valda
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Thank you Valda,
Yes, now I have to prove that William Petch was a doctor. As for Mary Ellis, I have a copy of her Will as well, which has been "translated" on the open Internet. It does not say that she was a "lady" and it would be hard to trace the Ellis line, as it seems to be very common. I have George Ellis Petch's Will. Very hard to read; however, that is what I am about to do, as Who do you think you are? Aust version has just finished. More importantly I have the Will of his wife Mary Petch, nee Walford of Banbury, where she leaves about 22000 pounds to relatives and charities 19/4/1831 [11/2131] ( I will check that Will out again for the exact amount. It would seem that they remained childless.
I did find the baptisms for their 3 kids; however, not the original transcripts.
Valda, I appreciate your help and willingness to search and share.
I do have a portrait of the "Hon. Dorothy Petcher" and some old folklore, which I have proved has some errors, but then also some "close" facts.
I working on the folklore to decided on facts v. exaggerated Australian folklore.
Depending on your interest, as I know that you help many people, I am prepared to share it with you, as I appreciate a critical eye.
Regards,
Keith
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Valda,
Yes, I have Marta Rees, nee Tomkins estate from HMCS even though I paid and they said that they did not have it. Then with ancestry.com new Probate, it showed up that they should have had it, so they conducted another search with success.
I also have the Wills of Samuel Tomkins (grandfather) and his bachelor brother William and both left Martha annuities.
Also her husband John Rees of Loo Choo Wales (d.1838), and his dad David Rees of Greenhill Haverfordwest (d.1837).
So just going through my info and trying to put it into some chronological sequence.
Regards,
Keith
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Hi Keith
The difficulty is equating an Elizabeth Ann Petch seeming daughter of William and Mary nee Ellis and an Honorable Dorothy Petcher - totally different name.
Have you been able to date the portrait?
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda,
One step forward, two back:
Your comment about Lady in waitings being of nobility, yes, we have found more hand written folklore:
Dr. Petcher m. Lady ..... only daughter of an Earl (Lady in waiting to the Queen).
Plenty of Earls around, may be one had a wife Lady Ellis and a daughter Mary Ellis.
Another publication "Royal Mistresses and Bastards" by Anthony J. Camp suggests that Edward Augustus, Duke of York had a mistress in the 1760's called Mrs. Saunders.
I need to find the death for William Petch, pre his wife 1821. You would have expected that he had a Will.
Regards,
Keith
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Hi
Did his wife leave a will? If she was the daughter of an Earl she would have the title Lady. If her husband died before her then he may not have left a will. Younger men are less likely to leave wills.
Previous question
Have you been able to date the portrait?
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda,
I do not have the original portrait of Dorothy Petcher / Elizabeth Ann Petch. To whom would I send a copy to have it dated?
This is the start of her Will - no mention of Lady Mary Petch.
One Exec was John James Catherwood (see below)
The other Exec was her son Dr. George Ellis Petch who died 1830.
Her servant/ companion was Sarah Bee. I would say that her dad was Dr. William Bee of Noble Street Clerkenwell (about her son's age). Noble and Fore Streets seem closeby.
Mary Petch, Shoreditch, Middx. WILL Proved 14 Jan 1823 PROB11/1665
This is the last Will and Testament of me Mary Petch of No 17 Hoxton Square in the Parish of Saint Leonard, Shoreditch, in the County of Middlesex, widow... and I nominate and appoint my son George Ellis Petch of Castle St, Falcon Square in the City of London, Doctor in Medicine and John James Catherwood of Charles Square, City Road in the County of Middlesex Esquire Executors of this my Will...
[The Executor John James Catherwood of Charles Square was born 25 May 1752 and buried in St. John, Hackney 12 Dec 1829, aged 78 years old, thus making him of similar age to Mary Petch. He was a receiver of corn returns and accountant of general excise. His father William Catherwood was a former apothecary, then land waiter from Hurst Village, Berkshire.]
Regards,
Keith
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Hi
The will gives you evidence that she married as Mary Petch, had children baptised as Petch, wrote a will as Mary Petch. There is no indication from the will that she was using the alias of Petcher at any point.
National Portrait Gallery
'The National Portrait Gallery can help with your family history research. If you want to search for a portrait of your ancestor or find out more about an existing portrait you can search our Collections online; contact our free enquiry service or visit the Heinz Archive & Library and conduct your research in person.'
http://www.npg.org.uk/research/archive/family-history.php
Regards
Valda
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To Eyesee and Valda (and other interested persons who have been assisting on this Tomkins line or reading this message line)
I have now returned to the information you have supplied on Samuel Tomkins, the Banker of Lombard Street, and addresses in Russell Street, Fitzroy Square and Lambeth, Surrey.
I now have a highly possible link in that 1841 Census supplied by Valda shows Samuel Tomkins 80, banker living at Albion Place, Christchurch, Surrey. If this is a similar location to that of James William Tomkins (d. 1817) Insured premises 2 Albion Place, Walworth - 1793, then the possibilities increase. I just have to now prove the link.
He is not my ancestor Samuel Tomkins, the merchant of Bread Street (d. 1818); however, I am sure that he will a cousin of some kind.
Transcriptions of Wills for three brothers John William Tomkins (d. 1817), his bachelor brother William (d. 1827) and my ancestor Samuel Tomkins (d. 1818) - all buried Bunhill Fields, will show that they are the sons of Nicholas Tomkins (b. 1707)
The first is RG6/498 births registered at Devonshire House in Middlesex. It reads:
Nicholas Tomkins son of Nicholas Tomkins Joyner and Rachel his wife, was born on the 29th. day of the fourth month called June, 1707, Moorfields, in the Parish of St. Stephen Coleman Street ------- Present: Frances Darans
Mary Rich Midwife ---------
Sarah Tomkins Elinor Tomkins
Sarah James Eve Tomkins
(This Eve Tomkins will be the grandmother and wife of Edward Tomkins)
Yes, there is a strong non-conformist link for many of the records that I have found with this Tomkins' line.
Once again, thank you to all helpers, no matter how long ago.
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Hi
Always interesting to read follow information
Thank you
Regards
Valda
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Hi Keith and others,
Nice to see you are making progress on the Tomkins line
Christine
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Just for interest - Eliza Alicia Isabella Smith who married Samuel Tomkins in 1808 at St Mary Woolnoth, was the daughter of Admiral Edward Tyrell Smith and his first wife Maria Nevin. Samuel and Eliza had seven children altogether. Their second child Maria died in the same year she was born.
I was also hoping to glean more information regarding the witnesses from the entry in the marriage register but I, too, found it difficult to decipher.
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Thank Lin007 for your response on the Smith / Tomkins marriage. I do have the Will of Samuel Tomkins, Banker of Lombard Street, and I am sure that he also fits into this particular Tomkins' family who we are researching; however, I am yet to prove his father.
He may be a nephew of our lot who were brokers/ merchants close by.
Does the information which you have gives me any indication?
Are you able to send me a personal message with a scan of the information?
Keith
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My interest is primarily in the Smith family so the Tomkins info I have is rather meagre. In fact, I have picked up several pointers from this forum which I shall follow up and for which I am grateful.
I downloaded Samuel Tomkins & Eliza Alicia Isabella Smith's marriage from the London Metropolitan Archives on Ancestry. Most frustrated to find that others on the page were fairly easily readable but the one I want not good. Guess that we should all be thankful that the registers have survived at all. Samuel is described as a Widower and the various censuses have his occupation as a Banker.
Samuel Tomkins and his son appeared as witnesses at the Old Bailey Ref t18290110-16 10 january 1828.
They were Partners in the Banking House of Willis & Co of Lombard Street which was founded in 1700.
I also have a note of a miniature portrait by William Booth of Alicia Ame, Anne Lydia and Mary Jane daughters of Samuel Tomkins, Banker. I think you might find it if you search the National Portrait Gallery site.
Sorry I can't be of more help
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Hi Keith,
I am researching my family tree and am descended from the WIlliam Catherwood you mention in your email of 7th Dec 2010.
I am very interested in your comment that he came from Hurst Village, Bucks. Can I ask where you found this information?
I know William Catherwood & his wife Elizabeth were living in Rugby in the early 1740's before coming to London (their daughter Elizabeth was born & died in Rugby 1741). Elizabeth's family were the Pollards of Rugby (glovers by trade), but I havent been able to find out where he came from.
By the by, John James Catherwood was the father of the famous explorer Frederick Catherwood (1799-1854).
best regards
Fiona :)
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Hi Fiona
Thank you for the hint that I need to file my rough notes better!
I finally did find my references to the Catherwood family and will look into the matter further, but in the meantime my reference to Hurst may have come from the Hurst Village Parish Registers history.woodedhill.org/HURST/PRD-c.htm
In the meantime, I will look at my notes to see what else I can come up with.
I find Rootschat a great forum where many people help me, so I will see what I can do for you.
Keith
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Fiona
In the meantime, this is where John James Catherwood is named as an exe of my gggggrand mother's (whatever) Will, indicating a close friendship. As both sons were doctors living nearby, I went looking for some possible connection.
Mary Petch, Shoreditch, Middx. WILL Proved 14 Jan 1823 PROB11/1665
This is the last Will and Testament of me Mary Petch of No 17 Hoxton Square in the Parish of Saint Leonard, Shoreditch, in the County of Middlesex, widow... and I nominate and appoint my son George Ellis Petch of Castle St, Falcon Square in the City of London, Doctor in Medicine and John James Catherwood of Charles Square, City Road in the County of Middlesex Esquire Executors of this my Will.
Keith
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Hi Valda,
Persistent may eventually win out....
We have located two pieces of information of William Petch being first in the court of the Duke of York, then appointed to George 111 as a page; even though the Australian folklore said a Dr.
April 23 1767
William Petch esq Page to His Royal Highness the Duke of York is appointed Page to His Majesty
Then 31 Mar 1770
Petch, W recorded in the reference: The bedchamber:Pages of the Backstairs 1760 -1837.
Now,
I have "found" a gracious person in England who has inherited many Tomkins papers and portraits/ photographs etc. This lady has never heard of a royal connection in her ancestry.
She decided to go through a box of memorabilia and found a portrait with an inscription on the back. It read
A Dr Petch
I think connected with my uncle Samuel's wife's family
E.T.
These details are promising; however, the portrait could be William Petch's son Dr. George Ellis Petch, thus still leaving William Petch, still a Page in the Court of George 111.
No, I can not find a death for William Petch nor a Will.
His death has to be post 1770 and pre 1800. There are no burials in Bunhill Fields to match.
Keith
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Hi
On William Petch and Mary Ellis' marriage allegation 7th January 1763 William is described as a gentleman of the parish of St Ann Westminster.
1st May 1782 George Ellis Petch the son of William Petch late of the parish of St James Westminster gentleman was apprenticed to Benjamin Bray merchant Taylor for 7 years.
Consistently in Westminster. Findmypast is the website indexing and putting online the parish registers held at Westminster Archives.
You could also ask for further information from the Royal Archives
http://www.royal.gov.uk/the%20royal%20collection%20and%20other%20collections/theroyalarchives/theroyalarchives.aspx
Regards
Valda
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Hi
I am back on the William Petch research again, looking for "who was the Hon Lady Dorothy Petcher?"
I now can rule out George 111's Page of the Backstairs William Petch's wife Mary Ellis. I have located her father as being Richard Ellis, who died Carpenter's Hall, London Wall 1772. His Will records his daughter inheriting as being Mrs. Mary Petch. Carpenter's Hall is significant as it was also the home/work place of their daughter Elizabeth Ann Petch's husband Samuel Tomkins and the connected Luck families.
When William Petch married Mary Ellis in 1763, address given as St. Ann Soho, Westminster. No evidence of Wm Petch paying tax there, other than the King and Queen owned apartments, one valued at 16 pounds.
New find:
Names and descriptions of the Proprietiers of Unclaimed Dividends South Sea Company as per 31 Dec 1790 listed:
William Petch, Pall Mall, deceased Date when dividends became payable July 1766, no of dividends 1.
Pall Mall may match his apartment now at St. James Palace, and Wm died in 1771. His wife and family swapped apartments with the Queen's hairdresser Frederick Albert.
From the diary of Charlotte Albert, (Mrs. Papendik)...
The Queen, upon the advancement of my father, deducted her allowance for the house in town. He was anxious about Petch's widow and children, and in addition to the King's pension, offered them the use of our residences as we vacated them.
I need to find out more of William Petch's parents. Was his mother Hon Dorothy Petch ( I see on a London tax entry for a 1719 that a William Petche had a stroke following the e on his name, which could easily be mis-read as Petcher.