RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Leicestershire => Topic started by: GerryS on Wednesday 28 April 10 22:30 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I wonder can anyone help me find out what happened to Cleopas Watts? He is my gggrandfather and married Hannah Cook in Quorndon on 8 Jun 1835. There are 2 children ,that I know of, Pharoah (yes really!!!! :)) born in Quorndon in 1836 and Eliza in 1837. In the 1841 census Hannah Watts is living with Cleopas's parents and the children. I can find no trace of him in any of the census's on A***, freeBMD records, IGI or L&RFHS burial records. I have tried also under Cleophas and other variations. Where could he be? Maybe he died between 1837 and 1841 but that is just a guess.
Pharoah is pretty easy to trace through the census's until his death in 1899 though his mother is also elusive after 1841.
I hope someone can help!
Thanks for looking
Gerry
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Seems likely he dies just before Civil Registation started.
You'd be best having a look through burial records for Quorndon - can you get to teh Leics Record Office?
If not, I hope someone on here has access or can get there for you.
I cant see Eliza's birth, so I guess she was born just before Civil Registraton began too.
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Hi Liz,
Thanks for the message. It seems most likely that he did die before Civil registration. And I am in Berkshire so it is not so easy to get to the Leics Records Office, perhaps some kind soul could do a look up please?
Thanks again
Gerry
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Greeting’s…& Welcome ……..Gerry……….
Interesting details held within Pharaoh’s Marriage to Ann. ?
St: Margaret’s Parish Church. Leicester.
Entry No.405, JUN 25,th 1860, after Banns
PHARAOH WATTS, 24, Widower. TAILOR, of Baker St,
Son . of JOHN WATTS,…. LOOM HAND
ANN BEASLEY, 19, Spinster. of Lee St,
Daughter. of William Beasley, coal dealer
Wits: John Gray, Miley? Bailey.
Having looked at the 1841 Census returns …
I took it that Pharaoh was the Child of John & Ann
By the way it was set out putting Pharaoh before Hannah
By the Enumerators Mark.... /
which shows a different Family group
within the household of John & Ann
so making him the Son of John & Ann.
Or was it done this way to save face of Hannah. ?
Eliza comes below Hannah Watts indicating Eliza belongs to Hannah
By 1851 John & Ann had moved to Leicester……
Pharaoh ( Apprentice Tailor) is now down as a Grandson of John & Ann.
Pharaoh’s & Ann’s burial details :~
Welford Road Cemetery.
Plot No’. U. B. 359.
B 359 F Watts Ann 1889 Nov 6 Aged.48
Victoria Street Lee Street Saint Margaret 64861
B 359 F Beasley Eliza 1894 Nov 21 76
Knighton Street Saint Mary 75655
B 359 F Watts Pharaoh 1899 Jul 4 Aged.63
The Workhouse Leicester 85640
Sorry no sign of your Cleopas Burial showing up on my Burial data...
MIKE………..
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Hi Mike
Thank you very much for all that, very interesting and helpful indeed. I believe Pharoah was the son of Cleopas and Hannah as per IGI record for Quorndon baptism 14 Feb 1836. and as you mention on the 1851 census he is clearly stated as the grandson of John.
Its sad to see Pharoah end up in the workhouse, I believe he was made bankrupt in 1891, prior to that he was a shoe manufacturer.
I wonder what could have happened to Cleopas though? I'm wondering if he also went by the name of John, or perhaps his grandfather attended at the marriage and the registrar wrote him down as the father?
Thanks again Mike
Gerry
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Greeting’s Again Gerry.
You asked :~
“or perhaps his grandfather attended at the marriage and the registrar wrote him down as the father?”
The marriage Register details are written down by either the officiating Minister or the Parish Clark before hand
as a true record……. and solemnised by their oaths and
Pharaoh & Ann’s signatures. ……
Remember that a Marriage document is a legal document……
Therefore when asked about who was your Father. ….
he had to tell the truth. ….
Otherwise face prosecution……
MIKE……
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Hi Again Mike,
Thanks for your clarification. If we can assume that both of Pharoah's parents (Cleopas and Hannah)died when Pharoah was very young is it possible that Pharoah's grandparents became his guardians and thus John is stated as the father (i.e. his guardian in this instance)? I cannot see any other possibility apart from their being two Pharoah Watts, but I think that is too unlikely??
And Cleopas? If he died in Quorndon I would asume he would be in the burial register. So I presume he died away from the parish or from Leicestershire?
Your thoughts would be appreciated.
Many thanks again
Gerry
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Hello Gerry
Cleopas Watts is surely an unusual name - so would this piece in the Leicester Chronicle Feb 1858 fit?
"Filial affection - Cleopas Watts appeared to a charge of assaulting his father, apparently a very old man but the magistrates recommended a settlement."
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and re 2 Pharoah Watts:
November 1889 - Deaths Ann, aged 48, wife of Mr Pharoah Watts
August 1893 - A Pharoah Watts aged 59, a tailor, charged with assaulting wife Eliza from whom he had been seperated for 2yrs 6 months.
The Pharoah Watts married to Eliza is 5 yrs older than what stated re birth?
Are there two?
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Hi Eileen,
Thanks so much for your postings and research
Certainly this is the same Pharaoh, his second wife Ann died in 1889 and he remarried Eliza in 1890. He became bankrupt in 1891 and in the 1891 census he was living in lodgings separated from Eliza. Also the article about Cleopas would fit, even though he seems to have been missing off the 1841 and 1851 census'. So it would seem Cleopas was alive in 1858! I would certainly like to have sight of these articles!
Thanks again
Gerard
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While you are chasing up that last bit I think I have found Cleopas in 1861.
Badly transcribed as:
Cleophenss Watts 40 unmarried Lace maker 15 Baker St. St Margaret, Leicester. Born Castle Donnington
Sarah Newton,18, daughter in law, born Quendon, Leics
Emma Bonnett 36, housekeeper, born Barrow
James Middleman 20. boarder.
RG9/2291/F90
but no sign thereafter
:)
PS Pharoah was at 15 Baker St address in 1851 - grandad died Cleopas came back and Pharoah moved out?
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Wow thanks EIleen, you are a star!
Yes that all fits. On A** even putting in Cleophens it could not find this entry in the 1861 census, only by putting in Emma Bonnett was I able to get it!
Certainly it is Cleopas, as his 'daughter in law' is from Quorndon, where the Watts are from. Although I'm not sure where his 'daughter-in-law' fits in yet?
Also Cleopas would have been quite a bit older than the 40 years he declared unless he married very young.
But it is interesting that Pharaoh followed in the same house! So it would seem that Pharaoh did not cut himself off from Cleopas totally.
So Cleopas was around in 1861!!!!! Using this information I will try to find him in 1841 and 1851, although I'm not sure how much luck I'll have in A**
Thanks again
Gerard
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hi, the newish Quorn village museum is online and has some genealogical info incl census. certainly you can see the 1841 arranged by surname etc - pharoah is there with family.
http://www.quornmuseum.com/index.php
Diddy
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To see if you can fit the Sarah Newton in :
1856 an Emma Watts married a Samuel Newton - Leicester.
Emma Bonnett - it's interesting that in 1851 she was (unmarried) with a John Watts widow age 40 Loom Hand worker living at 7 Wigston St St Margaret Leicester and in 1861 she was with Cleophas Watts at 15 Baker Street.
Wonder how Cleophas got his name - his parents seemed very conventional. Could Cleophas have adopted it?
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Greeting’s Folks……
Details of the 1856 Marriage Emma watts ~ Samuel Newton.:~
St: Margaret’s Parish Church. Leicester.
Entry No.130, September 22nd., 1856, after Banns
SAMUEL NEWTON, 21, Bachelor. Frame Work Knitter., of Dryden St,
Son. of SAMUEL NEWTON, Frame Work Knitter
EMMA WATTS, 20, Spinster. of Dryden St,
Daughter. of ROBERT WATTS, …… Frame Work Knitter
Wits: Joseph Corah, Ann Newton.
MIKE………
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Hmm so it doesn't seem as if that is the Newton connection Mike. Sarah Newton daughter in law b Quorn appears to be the daughter of Rodha Newton, born Ireland. (1851/1861 census Leicester) and Rodha has another daughter born Newcastle.
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Hi Everyone,
Thanks everyone for all your wonderful information and research. But I'm wondering if Sarah Newton is the daughter in law of Cleopas Watts how could this be? The only way I figure that someone is your daughter in law is if she married your son, so then how could her name be Sarah Newton (surely she would be Sarah Watts)?? Or is this another mystery in the world of Cleopas and Pharoah.
And Eileen (thanks again) the further information that you sent about Emma Bonnett, sounds like it could be perhaps a key as to why Cleopas can not be found in 1851 or 1841. Perhaps he did take up the name John for a while. Certainly when he married in 1835 he was Cleopas, then seems to go missing until 1858. So maybe he was using an assumed name. I will certainly be looking into that.
Cleopas is rather an interesting name! It seems it is from the New Testament, one of the disciples of Luke. So I guess it is one of those more unusual biblical names that crop up. According to WIkipedia it is recognised in the Catholic Church on the 25th November so perhaps he was born on that day (I have yet to establish his birth or his death yet!!!).
And Diddy thanks for the Quorn web site, I will be having a good browse.
And a special thanks to Mike for all his good work with Leicestershire references.
Gerard
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Hi again,
Ok I know I'm a bit slow! But I think I figured how Cleopas could have a daughter-in-law Sarah Newton in 1861!
We know Cleopas married Hannah Cook in 1835 and went on to have Pharoah and Eliza. Now Hannah seems to be missing after 1841. So lets assume that Hannah dies sometime after and Cleopas marries a widow, or in anycase a woman that has had a child and her name is Newton. Yeah I know it was probably obvious.
So there must be a marriage for Cleopas Watts to a Newton.
Ahhh but I've just had another thought! Could Cleopas have married while Hannah was still alive and thus have taken the name of John Watts? And then when his second wife died, he reverted to Cleopas??? :) Or am I jumping ahead a bit!! But it sounds a good theory to me!
So possible a marriage of Cleopas or John Watts to a Newton??
Any other more likely ideas?
Thanks
Gerards
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Well I found a Hannah Watts died Jan/Mar 1893 Leicester. But its almost midnight so ......... :)
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Yes it was almost midnight and I had bleary eyes! Sorry here is the correct date:
Hannah Watts died Jan/March 1843 Leicester 15/76
So Cleopas could have a second wife.
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Hi Eileen and RootsChatters,
Yes Hannah Watts death in 1843 would seem to be very likely particularly as there is no later reference to her and in 1861 Cleopas has Sarah Newton as a daughter in law.
Now I have managed to find additional references to Cleopas (Cleophas) making appearances before the Loughborough Petty Sessions. It seems my gggrandfather was a black sheep!!!! and he was living around Quorndon at this time. 1835 guilty of pushing down a wall, 1840 and again in 1842 guilty of trespass, Mar 1842 assault on his wife [I presume this must have been pretty serious to have to come before court; and did this cause her death 1 year later?] and 1845 assaulting PC [Parish Constable?] James Wilde at Quorn wake. A black sheep indeed, remembering he was in Court in Leicester in 1858 for assaulting his father!!!
So we have been able to trace Cleopas fairly well just missing entries for 1841 and 1851 census (I intend to trawl through all census returns in and around Quorndon). Of course I still do not have his birth, or death or burial. Is it possible for someone to do a look up for Cleopas's birth in Quorndon around 1814 - 1819?
Thanks again to everyone for reading and helping
Gerard
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gerard, i can look up quorn records in L'boro library. prob this weekend as working thur /fri now.
Diddy
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That would be great Diddy, thank you very much. I hope it is not too much trouble. Gerard
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I think this is 'Cleophas' reverting back to John in 1881 Census
John Watts 62 Widower Shoe Riveter b Castle Donnington as per 1861 census)
Mary Owen 48 Boarder, Widow born London
Address The Green, Belgrave, Leicester. (north part of city)
RG11/3153
What do you think?
He certainly got around :)
Going to have a look around Middlesex now :)
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Hi Eileen,
Thanks for your suggestion
Yes its possible that it is Cleopas. John is a bit of a more common name so it may be another John Watts, I will certainly keep this one in mind though.
Gerard
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Before the clock strikes midnight again - 1881 census showing John Watts born Castle Donnington - which is what Cleopas gave as place of birth in 1861 census.
Just as Cleopas born Castle D cannot be found in 1851 or 1871 neither can a John Watts b Castle D be found in either of those years. And just like Cleopas I cannot find a birth for a John Watts b Castle D. ???
That is what makes me think they could be the same person. After reading what you found :) could he have been in jail in those years?
This Cleopas has the makings of a wonderful novel!
Enjoy the papers
Eileen
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Hi Everyone,
I had a search through all Quorndon 1841 and 1851 census's as fully indexed on http://www.quornmuseum.com/index.php (thanks Diddy) and the only Watts family listed at all is the that of Pharoah Watts and his mother and grandparents (one household). Also I trawled through all the 1841 and 1851 returns for Quorndon district on A** and the same result.
So it could be he was using another name (John) in these years, or could he be in prison (are these not covered by the same census?) or just away or avoiding the census!
On the possible use of an alternative name I am sort of hoping that his baptismal record (if found) will show John Cleopas or Cleopas John Watts :) But that's just my wishful thinking again!!!
Cleopas or Cleophas (although often mistranscribed) is such an unusual name, surely we would have found him if he was out there in 1841 or 1851?
Thanks again everyone for your interest and help
Gerard
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Hi Again everyone,
Just looking over all the postings I think it is very likely that John Watts and Cleopas Watts are different usages of name by the same person. The evidence does seem to stack up...
Pharaoh is definitely the son of Cleopas Watts yet at Pharoah's marriage in 1860 he gives his father as John Watts.
In the 1861 census Cleopas has a housekeeper Emma Bonnett. In the 1851 census Emma Bonnett is with John Watts in Leicester.
Cleopas seems is known to be living up to at least 1861 (including lots of court appearances) yet he is only found in 1861 and not in 1841 and 1851, while a John Watts is not in 1861 but found in 1851, 1871 and possibly 1881 with similar occupations and birth locations.
[By the way Diddy I gave you a wrong direction Cleopas was born in Donningto not Quorndon, so please do not look up there!]
Thanks again Rootschatters
Gerard
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as stated in a PM - i will look for John /Cleopas in the Castle Donington PRs in L'boro library.
Diddy
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Thanks very much Diddy
Gerard
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Greeting’s Folks ….
Diddy......... to cut down your leg work . .......
Try these Ones :~
St: Edwards King & Martyr parish Church
Castle Donnington.
1817.
Cleophas. Son of John & Ann Watts……Bapt……13th. August.
1819.
Frances Daughter of John & Ann Watts…..Bapt….13th. December
Buried 2nd. February 1820.
MIKE………. ;)
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Mike -are you implying my legs aren't up to the job!! :o
thanks anyway - will check those out plus look around for other family members.
Diddy ;D
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Thanks Mike and Diddy,
So Cleophas was not of full age when he got married :) in fact 2 months short of his 18th birthday, obviously a marriage carried out to save Hannah blushes as you say as she was already pregnant with Pharoah at the time, and that, as you previously said Mike, is most likely is why Pharoah is listed below his grandparents rather than below Hannah in 1841.
And looking at the 1841 census, I wonder who was Miriam Watts aged 14 in 1841? Another daughter of John and Ann?
Gerard
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Hi RootsChatters
About Cleophas's wife Hannah Watts nee Cook, who is on the 1841 census but does not appear after, Eileen previously posted that a Hannah Watts died Leicester Jan-Mar 1843. In fact on FreeBMD there are 2 other postings for Hannah Watts' death in Leicester Jan-Mar 1847 and Oct-Dec 1847. But I think the most likely is Loughborough (this would cover Quorndon area) Jan-Mar 1844.
Thanks
Gerard
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Greeting’s Again Folks. ……
Let’s try and clarify these Deaths for a Hannah Watts. …..
1847.
All Saints Parish Church. Leicester.
Parish Burial Register No’. 1310.
Hannah Watts.
Abode at Burial……Leicester.
16th. January.
Aged…..An Infant ( usually means they did not reach their 1st Birthday.)
1847. Oct ~ Dec Qrt. Cert No’. XV 61.Leicester.
Sorry on trace found within the 13 Burial Grounds of the Borough of Leicester.
Plus no trace within the County of a Burial to match the above details.
Assume the burial was outside of Leicestershire………
1844.
Emmanuel Parish Church. Loughborough.
Parish Burial Register No’. 233.
Hannah Watts.
Abode at Burial …..Loughborough.
23rd. February.
Aged….72.
MIKE……
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Hello Mike
Do you have a record of the Hannah Watts I posted?
1843 - Leicester - Jan/Mar Entry No 15 76
Thanks
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Greeting’s …….Eileen.
Sorry No trace of this Hannah….. also. …… :'(
MIKE. …..
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Thanks again Mike and Eilleen,
So from the four possibilities, for the death of Cleophas' wife Hannah, 2 are ruled out - 16 Jan 1847 because it was an infant and 23 Feb 1844 because aged 72. So that leaves only Oct-Dec 1847 and Jan-Mar 1843 both Leicester Registry. Now the last record we have that Hannah is alive is in the Loughborough Petty Sessions of Feb 1842 where Cleophas is charged with assaulting his wife!!!
So either remaining death dates are strong possibilities. (My hunch, although I've been mostly wrong so far :) ) is that the infant that died may have been Hannah's child. She could have been very poorly at the time, so the child was called Hannah and she (Hannah, the mother) died also and was registered Oct-Dec 1847.
Is it possible to check All Saints Parish church for the Baptimal record of little Hannah (1846 - 16 Jan 1847)? That could prove or disprove me very easily :)
Thanks again
Gerard
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Hi again,
I forgot to add on my last posting that we know that Cleophas was still in Quorndon in 1845 because of another assault appearance in Sept 1845 in Loughborough Petty sessions!!!! So it could be said that if Hannah had died in 1843 she would likely be registered in Loughborough District. At some stage before 1851 the family that is left can be found in 15 Baker St in Leicester (Pharoah and his grandparents). Between 1845 and 1851 the family left Quorndon to live in Leicester, and that's also why I think Hannah's death registered in 1847 in Leicester registry is more likely.
Thanks
Gerard
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Hi Rootschatters,
I thought those of you that have been following the saga of Cleophas and his son Pharaoh may be interested to see the black sheep that Pharaoh was (followed on very well from his father).
This is extracted from the Leicester Chronicle dated May 09 1891
:)
Gerard
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Hi gerard, wish i'd read posts before going to library this morning!! however i had an early start.
can confirm baptism of Cleophas s/o/ John & Ann Watts 13/8/1817 John FWK.
also Francis 13/12/1819
could not see Miriam or any other children.
I am going to have a good read through above as i need to clarify what we know /don't know in my mind!! I can look for deaths in L'boro. etc.
If you would like to list things you are now looking for that would be good.
Diddy ;D
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Thanks very much Diddy
Hope you did end up spending too much time looking and had some time for yourself!
I will post a bit later what is outstanding, and if you have time a look up would be great.
Thanks again
Gerard
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Hello Mike
Bearing in mind Hannah Watts' circumstances, would a burial in a pauper's grave be shown? (Forgive my ignorance :))
Hello Gerry
You asked about Miriam Watts. In Dec 1846 she married William Cramp at Barrow upon Soar.
1851 Census shows them at Stoop Lane Quorndon
William Cramp b Burton on Wolds, Leics, Ag Lab
Miriam Cramp, 24, b Castle Donnington
Charles Cramp, 3, b Quorndon
No birth found on Anc** for Miriam. There were two William Cramps in the area at the time, one a parish constable and one a rogue :)
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Hi Eileen,
Thanks very much for that, so it seems that Miriam was born in Castle Donnington.
My understanding of parish constables are that they were made up from people who has some standing in the community i.e. tradesman or farm owners, although from my reading of them some were illiterate. An agricultural labourer would not hold this position normally. So I'm thinking looking at our knowledge and standing of the Watts so far, is that Miriam's William Cramp would be more likely the rogue..... May I ask how why you think there are 2 different William Cramps in this area at that time?
Gerard
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Looking through what we already have (lots - thanks everybody, especially Mike, Diddy and Eileen, more than I ever expected), the following is unknown from the Loughborough area i.e. Quorndon or Castle Donnington...
Eliza Watts baptism in Donnington abt 1837 [she is my gg grandmother, Cleophas is my ggg grandfather]; parents Cleophas and Hannah
Hannah Cook bapt possibly in Quorndon abt 1821
Miriam Watts bapt in Donnington abt 1827
and wow that would seem all that I can see unknown at the moment in Loughborough :)
Thanks
Gerard
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My favourite hobby Gerry - I looked in the Leicester newspapers and there was a William Cramp, a parish constable and serving on juries and then there was a William Cramp constantly before the jury :) All during the relevant timescale.
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Hi again Eileen,
I had just had a quick look through and the rogue/ convict William Cramp cannot be the same one married to Miriam. in 1849 there is an article in the Leicester Chronicle......'Wm Cramp was charged by Sarah Cramp his wife with assaulting her in Gravel street at his mother's house'.
William Cramp and Miriam Watts were married in 1846 and living (as you found) in Quorndon in 1851.
A cousin perhaps? Obviously very distant cos the Watts were such law abiding people ;D
Gerard
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There were 3 other William Cramps Gerry but I can account for other William Cramps in 1861 and 1871 but cannot find William and Miriam in 1861/1871. Seen a possible death mid 1860's for William but nothing for Miriam. Interestingly court appearances seemed to stop too.
You might want to pull your hair out with this one:
Found a marriage for a John Newton Cramp marrie 1865 Leicester (any connection to Sarah Newton daughter in law of Cleopas ?? :)
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ok thanks gerald - it helps to clarify where we are going next. can look for those this week some time.
Diddy
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Hello again
Is it possible to get more details of Pharoah's first marriage 1856 Jul/Sept?
He married possibly Rebecca Cox or Sarah Dadwell in Leicester. It would be interesting to see who was given in that marriage as his father.
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And if possible :) for Pharoah's third marriage to Eliza in July 1890 (Elizabeth Ann Harley or Eliza Higgingbottom) registered in Leicester Jul -Sep 1890, but I know from newspaper articles about his bankruptcy he was married in July. This might show if his father Cleophas was also mentioned.
Thanks
Gerard
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Greeting’s Again…Folks.
Re:~ Pharaoh’s 1st Wife’s Name Rebecca or Sarah.
Going on the following burial I would say......... Rebecca.
Welford Road Cemetery
Plot No’. C. G. 331.
G 331 C WATTS REBECCA 1859 NOV 17 Aged.29
BURGESS STREET ALL SAINTS 5567
G 331 C Perkins Mary Ann 1886 Mar 20 72 Palmerston Street Saint Margaret 27200
G 331 C Oldham Annie 1893 Nov 18 44 Leicester Union House Saint Mary 35814
G 331 C Webster Jasper 1898 Sep 9 39 Albion Street Leicester 41755
G 331 F Waite Edward 1915 Jan 28 63 Sutton Coldfield Leicester 55097
Abv’s :~
C. next to surname indicates. ……. Common plot ( Usually a Single interment )
I can confirm Pharaoh did not marry at St: Margaret’s Church for either 1st or 3rd.
I’ll have to do some more searching about for these ..
But seeing the Ref No’s suspect both were Register Office Marriages
MIKE……..
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Hi Mike and everyone,
Thanks for the probable burial of Pharoah's first wife. This would seem to be the most likely, as searching FreeBMD for both Rebecca and Sarah Watts death (in the years before his remarriage in 1860), only Rebecca Watts comes with Leicester Oct - Dec 1859. This ties in with the burial.
It is interesting that following the deaths of both his first and second wives he remarried within the year. I suppose it was a case of necessity in those days, particularly when there was children.
Diddy, regarding the Loughborough lookups, would it be too much to look up a baptism of John Watts in Castle Donnington around about 1819. If there was no entry then (I'm hoping!!!) it would make it more likely that Cleophas was using the pseudonym of John.
Thanks again
Gerard
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Gerard, i did look through The CD baptisms for 1813 - 1827ish and noted all Watts. the only 2 there that I haven't told you about are 2 from 'single women':
Louisa d/o Eliza Watts, single woman 26/10/1826
Israel s/o Sarah Watts single woman 14/5/1818
I made a note of these as the names Eliza, sarah and Israel (another Biblical connection!) caught my eye.
Diddy
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Hi Diddy,
Thanks very much for that look up. So no John Watts baptism which i suppose is good from my point of view. But no Miriam baptism either.
It is certainly useful to have Louisa and Israel, so as to rule them out if found in any later census's etc.
Thanks again
Gerard
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gerard, checked for:
Eliza bc1837 CD checked 1834 -1838 no record
Hannah Cook bc 1821 Quorn no record around that date
Miriam Watts bc 1827 CD checked 1824 - 1830 no record
Diddy :-\
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Thanks very much Diddy, your help is very much appreciated.
I will have a rethink about where to go from here.
Gerard
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Hello Gerard and Mike,
I'm new to this, so please bear with me until I get the hang of things.
While searching shipping records about my great-great-grandparents, I came across a William Cramp and Miriam Watts from Leicestershire who sailed from Liverpool on 25th June 1852 on the ship 'Medina' and arrived at Port Adelaide, South Australia on 9th October, 1852.
Shipping records show that William was born abt 1827 (occupation - Agricultural Laborer) and Miriam was born abt 1826.
They had 2 sons with them
Charles Cramp b.c1847/8 and Frederick Cramp b.1851.
They settled in North Adelaide, South Australia and had another son
Edward Cramp b. 16.01.1854 at Upper Sturt, South Australia (Dist Ade, Bk 4, Pg 249).
If this sounds like your William Cramp and Miriam Watts, please let me know as I have some more information.
Trevor
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Wow Trevor,
That is definitely 'my' William and Miriam Cramp. Everything certainly fits :) and explains why nothing could be found for them in census after 1851. I would certainly like to hear more and will PM you shortly.
Thanks
Gerard
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Hi everyone,
I will shortly be adding a new posting called "Miriam Watts from Castle Donnington""Miriam & Eliza Watts Castle Donnington and Quorndon" to prevent confusion on this posting.
Thanks
Gerard
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hello Gerry
It is 8 years since your last post.
Are you still researching the Watts
Miriam Watts was my GGGrandmother
regards Max Swan
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Hello Max,
Gerry has been notified of your reply and was online just a few weeks ago. Hopefully he will soon to your message.
Regards
Sarah :)
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Thank you for informing me
Cheers Max Swan
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Hello Gerard
I have been away for a month and have a new computer. So can't seem to find you other than here I sent a message to you about if you can help with info on my GGG Grandmother Miriam Watts? who Married William Cramp and came to South Australia I have done a DNA with Ancestry Have you done a DNA? I have a private tree with Ancestry but not a paid member at the moment. My tree is Short/Breeze/Byrne/Martin family tree and a public one Daniel Martin's family tree and My Ancestors Kind regards Maxine Swan