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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: baltibluebird on Wednesday 05 May 10 11:34 BST (UK)
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Hi
Can someone please clarify something for me?
When a woman married in Scotland, did she always retain her m.s. name? By the way, what does the m.s. mean please?
The reason I ask is that on numerous censuses I have found wives recorded with either their married name or m.s. name which confuses me somewhat; eg 1841 might be married surname yet 1851 might be m.s. name.
Hope I have got across what I am trying to say!
Thanks in anticipation ...
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MS stands for Maiden Surname.
;D
Carol
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Hi
In Scotland to the present day women are enitiled to retain their maiden surname
when they marry. In earlier times you sometimes find their death certificates in their
maiden names and saying that they were married to whomever. I have some like that.
Hope this helps
Joy :)
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Hello,
Yes, this can be a little confusing but also helpful when you understand what’s going on.
In Scotland a married woman can legally be known by both her maiden name and her husband’s name. In fact on gravestones it is usually a woman’s maiden name that will appear and it will say something like “wife of John Smith”. This still happens to this day.
In the census it is a little more haphazard, usually she will be listed with her married name but it is not unusual to see a maiden name. The 1841 census can therefore be confusing as there are no relationships listed but then again in most families it is quite obvious.
In our own census indexing project [http://www.maxwellancestry.com/census/default.htm] we have indexed these women under both married and maiden name (when it is obvious) to save confusion. We have added an alternative surname column too.
So if you do come across the maiden name in the census it will make it much easier to find a marriage.
Another thing to remember is that if the woman is a widow the chances of her being listed under her maiden name increases dramatically and if you don’t know what to look for these widows can be hard to find. I usually look for her children in the hope she is living with one of them.
Emma
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Women in Scotland kept their own names on marriage, changing became fashionable, like the "not guilty verdict", post the Union, to be upsides with the English....Skoosh.
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I'm known by both maiden and married name, depending on who I'm dealing with, including my bank using both! Women in Scotland tended to be known by their maiden names as people in their own right. I'm not sure how much this had to do with their legal standing under Scottish Law as women have been able to inherit property and land for centuries. Perhaps this was to help distinguish that where a woman was married the property was hers?
Anyhoo, it's a very useful thing when you're looking back!
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Archivos, a buddy of mine married a girl from a Lanarkshire town and moved out there from Glasgow, twentyfive years on he's still known as Jeannie Broon's man!(name changed to protect the innocent)
Skoosh.
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Many thanks to you all for your most helpful replies.
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This post has helped me also...thank you. :)
I have just found 3 generations living together in Cadder...the 3xgt grandmother confused me as she is listed under her maiden name, she was a widow.
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Glad it has proved useful to you too!
This thought had be puzzling me for some time, so Im glad to have some answers!
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Archivos, a buddy of mine married a girl from a Lanarkshire town and moved out there from Glasgow, twentyfive years on he's still known as Jeannie Broon's man!(name changed to protect the innocent)
Skoosh.
Ha, she must have been quite a weel kent face!
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A Weel Kent Something!........Skoosh.
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Could somebody please translate "weel kent" for me.
Cheers.
Grandma
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Hi, it means well known!
Regards,
flst
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Hi flst.
Thanks for your reply.. thought it was something along that line. Here in Norway we would say , vel kjent, almost the same.
Mary
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Archivos, a buddy of mine married a girl from a Lanarkshire town and moved out there from Glasgow, twentyfive years on he's still known as Jeannie Broon's man!(name changed to protect the innocent)
Skoosh.
That still happens in my family. My Grandad was 1 of 7 brothers and his sister and my Nana will talk about Peggy Smith or Mary Jones when talking about the wives or other relatives.
Partly I think because all the women seem to be Margaret, Mary, Elizabeth, Agnes or Helen's (or various diminutives of) so it's distinguishes them from each other.
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Under Scots Law a woman retains her birth name throughout her life and any other names including any adopted by marriage are tagged on as an "or"
e.g. Fred Bloggs marries Joan Smith who legally thereafter is known as Joan Smith or Bloggs.
This is still the situation and on any legal documents you should see the womans maiden surname given priority - although as mentioned there appears to be a period when English customs appeared to prevail (possibly during the same period when Scotland disappeared to become North Britain)
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Hi Falkryn
Many thanks for the information. I am really glad that I raised this point as it seems to have generated a fair bit of interest for others.
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Resurrecting this old thread to add another question. When a widow remarried pre civil registration was there any convention with the surname used in the marriage register? Would she usually remarry with her maiden surname or would she be recorded with both surnames, or was it just random?
Debra :)
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Any I have found have been recorded in the pre-1855 parish registers by their maiden surname.
In passing, this thread reminds me of a practice that I find very unhelpful.
Suppose Jeanie Brown marries John Smith.
'Jeanie Brown or Smith' as used in Scotland is clear and unambiguous. It tells you instantly that this is a woman whose maiden surname is Brown and whose husband's surname is Smith.
However sometimes I come across 'Jeanie Brown Smith'. This is ambiguous because without further research I cannot tell whether this is Jeanie Brown, married to Mr Smith, or Jeanie, middle name Brown, surname Smith; and I cannot tell whether Smith is her own maiden surname or her husband's surname, and if it is, what her maiden surname is.
I know that in some places it is customary for this Jeanie Brown to be generally known as Jeanie Brown Smith, but in the context of genealogy it is ambiguous and potentially confusing.
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Any I have found have been recorded in the pre-1855 parish registers by their maiden surname.
Same here - I think because the tradition in Scotland is (still) for married women not to 'give up' their maiden names, most widows I've come across in my family revert to their maiden names when their husbands die, and are consequently married again as such.
Ruth
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Hi, I am a widow and have now included by deed poll my maiden name to my full name. I just wondered if anyone knew whether it is ok to have my forenames and maiden name on my memorial headstone, and not my surname by marriage, Any help most appreicated, Sheila
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Hi, I am a widow and have now included by deed poll my maiden name to my full name. I just wondered if anyone knew whether it is ok to have my forenames and maiden name on my memorial headstone, and not my surname by marriage, Any help most appreicated, Sheila
You can instruct your executor to put whatever name you like on your headstone. You can even do so formally by putting a clause in your will. I think you might have a problem if you wanted to put on your stone something that might be seen by some people as potentially offensive, but other than that you can put what you like on it.
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"Memorials and inscriptions will only be permitted after the submission of a written statement and drawing of the proposed memorial or inscription to the Authorised Officer."
The same term seems to be used throughout Scottish authorities.
Regards
Malky
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Hi all,
What I am seeking clarification of is Scottish women reverting to using their maiden names specifically when they became widows.
I have a Widow Munro who appears twice receiving poor relief in parish kirk session records in 1783 and again in 1784, although in one of these three records she appears as Christian Munro.
Basically, how likely is it that Munro was her maiden name ? I mean I am aware of Scottish women retaining their maiden name but the fact that it's written as "Widow Munro" suggests that she was the widow of a man surnamed Munro.
Thanks.
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Basically, how likely is it that Munro was her maiden name ?
I would say more likely than not.
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Basically, how likely is it that Munro was her maiden name ?
I would say more likely than not.
Thanks for the reply, but just to be clear what I am getting at is, is it likely that you could get a woman recorded by her maiden and with the widow prefix as the first name ?
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It is possible, though I cannot think of an actual example to prove it.
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I am a widow and have now included by deed poll my maiden name to my full name.
You would not have needed to change your name by Deed Poll to add your m/s as you do not lose your m/s on marriage.
You would just start using your name to be known as Sheila + M/S + Surname.
Legal documents will have you as Sheila M/S or Surname anyway.
Annie