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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => West Lothian (Linlithgowshire) => Topic started by: Rosinish on Saturday 19 June 10 17:49 BST (UK)

Title: Glen of Bo'ness, Linlithgow, West Lothian
Post by: Rosinish on Saturday 19 June 10 17:49 BST (UK)
Looking for descendants of John Glen (c1830 - 1864) & Ann Johnston. They had 1 son Archibald c1856 but were there others? I have been unable to locate a birth certificate for him nor a death certificate but have his marriage to Janet Brown 13 Feb 1880. I have no record of a marriage for his parents John & Ann although John's death cert. says married to Ann Johnston. I have no death record for her either. Is it possible that Ann may have been her middle name? Does anyone know who John's parents were as his death cert. was signed by a relative who didn't have they details.

Thanks,

Anne.
Title: Re: Glen of Bo'ness, Linlithgow, West Lothian
Post by: apanderson on Saturday 19 June 10 19:38 BST (UK)
Hi Anne, welcome to Rootshat!

I had a wee look on the 1871 Census and living at Corbiehall, Bo'ness were:

James Glen, Head, age 17, born c1854, Occupation 'Bailewy' Horse Driver (Railway?)
Helen Glen, Sister, age 15, born c1856, Occupation House Keeper
Archibald Glen, Brother, aged 13, born c1858, Occupation Waggon Greaser
All born Bo'ness

(Also a Robert Reid, Half Cousin, age 5, born c1866, Occupation Scholar, born Shotts, Lanarkshire)

I looked to see if I could find them in 1861, but that's proving to be easier said than done!

At least you now know that Archibald had at least one brother and one sister!!  ;D

Anne
Title: Re: Glen of Bo'ness, Linlithgow, West Lothian
Post by: indyblue on Sunday 02 October 11 02:39 BST (UK)
Hello There,

I have a marriage of John Menzies and Jane Beveridge on 08/10/1872 in Glasgow. John was my great grandfather. On the marriage entry John's parents were listed as John Menzies; a coal miner and deceased. John's mother was listed as Ann Menzies; previously Glen; M.S. Johnston also deceased.
Not to sure as to whether there is a connection or not, but I have been unable to find the marriage of John Menzies senior.

Kind Regards,

Steve
Title: Re: Glen of Bo'ness, Linlithgow, West Lothian
Post by: Rosinish on Sunday 02 October 11 12:20 BST (UK)
Hi Steve,
 
Great to hear from you. This is most certainly the same Ann Johnston & John is on the 1851 census on ancestry aged 1yr but the spelling is Mingus.

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=1851Scotland&indiv=try&h=2880057

There is also a William Main which may be an error & his name may well be Menzies? He is somewhat younger than Ann though. Ann was 34yrs & William 23yrs.

It would be great to compare notes so I will PM you with my email as I have the marriage cert. for Ann & John in 1862 which was after your John was born.

Ann seems to have had 6 children, 3 of which are under the name Glen - James, Helen & Archibald but I have been to every corner for their births to no avail so it's an ongoing feat. I am of the opinion that John Glen was their step-father. The other 3 kids are: Charles Grant, George Brown & your John Menzies.
I don't have any of the birth records but there was a John Reid (half cousin) on a census. I have his birth cert. as I was trying to find the connection but again to no avail. His father was Robert & his mother Marion Sutton/Hutton? - the writing is so hard to read that I can't make out his mother's maiden name yet for sure. Does the name Reid feature in your tree?

There is also a Richard Grant (cousin-in-law) who registered John Glen's death but I don't know yet where he ties in but would imagine he's related to Ann's son Charles?

Regards,

Anne.
Title: Re: Glen of Bo'ness, Linlithgow, West Lothian
Post by: MonicaL on Sunday 02 October 11 17:00 BST (UK)
Hi All

Welcome to RootsChat, Steve  :) Anne, Steve needs a couple more posts before the private message service (PMs) is activated.

From the 1851 census posted and then the 1871 entry, I think this is 1861:

John Grant 40, labourer b. Edinburgh
Ann Grant 42
Chas Grant 20
George Grant 18
John Grant 12
James Grant 10
Helen Grant 8
Archibald Grant 6
Elizabeth Grant 1

Address: 34 Corbiehall, Bo'ness

Can't say I am getting my head round all the different surnames going around as yet!

Anne, if you are having problems reading anything off the images that you are viewing on SP, you can contact them at any time and they will send you an enhanced image for the section you are having a problem with - they are very good at responding to this type of issue. www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/content/help/index.aspx?r=1210

Monica
Title: Re: Glen of Bo'ness, Linlithgow, West Lothian
Post by: Rosinish on Tuesday 04 October 11 02:27 BST (UK)
Hi Steve & Monica,

Many thanks for your replies as things are becoming a bit more obvious with the name variations which had me wondering for a while if I was on the right track?

As you can see there are so many different names it’s hard to tell what their proper names were? None are listed as step-son/daughter by John Grant which is the reason I discounted the 1861 census initially.

Marriage 1

Ann Johnston & Charles Grant married 03 Oct 1831

Ann Johnston b 07 Oct 1816 - Bet. 1864 - 1872 (Ann was deceased on daughter helen's marriage cert. in 1862. I can't find a death record for Ann to date.
Charles Grant b c1806 - 06 Nov 1840

(If I have the correct Charles as there’s no indication of him being Single/Widowed/Married, his wife’s name or parent’s names? – Inconclusive!

Son Charles b c1840 which ties in with all the census records listed but 9yrs from marriage date for Charles who seems to be an only son seems a bit odd.

It would tie in with the Widow Grant on 1841 census – inconclusive.

Son Charles b c1840 which ties in with all the census records listed.

Marriage 2

Ann Johnston & John Glendinning married 31 Dec 1862 (Ann was a widow & John single)

John Glendinning b c 1830 - 11 Apr 1864 (died less than 2yrs into their marriage) & his name is recorded as Glen on his death certificate.

From 1840 (death of Charles) to 1862 (marriage to John Glendinning) there are 5 children born with surnames recorded as Brown, Menzies (Mingus on census) & Glen yet later they all seem to be under the name Grant.

However, I have not been able to trace the births for any so far as my main interest was the Glen(dinning) line prior to discovering that there were no children born to Ann Johnston & John Glen named James, Helen & Archibald although Helen married by the name Glen & witnesses were Thomas Grant & John Menzies.

I’m wondering if some of these are Ann’s step/fostered/adopted children?

If anyone can shed any light on this Jigsaw/Rubik’s Cube/Spaghetti Junction, I’d love to hear from them as it’s a real enigma!

I had put this lot onto the back burner until recently as I’d spent so much money & no results.

These census records show the name variations but seem to tie in with ages/dates give or take a few yrs which was the norm then.

            1841         
                     
                  
Name   S/name      Born    Parish   Address   Age   Birth
                     
Christian   Grant      W/Loth   Bo'ness   Corb/hall   35   1806
Widow   Grant      W/Loth   Bo'ness   Corb/hall   25   1816
Charles   Grant      W/Loth   Bo'ness   Corb/hall   9 Mo   1840
Margaret   Grant      W/Loth   Bo'ness   Corb/hall   16   1825
                     
            1851         
                     
Ann   Grant   Head   Bo'ness   Bo'ness   Corb/hall   34   1817
Charles   Grant   Son   Bo'ness   Bo'ness   Corb/hall   10   1841
George   Brown   Son   Bo'ness   Bo'ness   Corb/hall   5   1846
John   Mingus   Son   Bo'ness   Bo'ness   Corb/hall   1   1850
William   Main   Lodger   Fife   Bo'ness   Corb/hall   23   1828

            



         
            1861         
                     
John   Grant   Head   Ed/burgh   Bo'ness   34 Corb/hall   40   1821
Ann   Grant   Wife   Bo'ness   Bo'ness   34 Corb/hall   42   1819
Chas   Grant   Son   Bo'ness   Bo'ness   34 Corb/hall   20   1841
George   Grant   Son   Bo'ness   Bo'ness   34 Corb/hall   18   1843
John   Grant   Son   Bo'ness   Bo'ness   34 Corb/hall   12   1849
James   Grant   Son   Bo'ness   Bo'ness   34 Corb/hall   10   1851
Helen   Grant   Dau   Bo'ness   Bo'ness   34 Corb/hall   8   1853
Archibald   Grant   Son   Bo'ness   Bo'ness   34 Corb/hall   6   1855
Elizabeth   Grant   Dau   Bo'ness   Bo'ness   34 Corb/hall   1   1860
                     
            1871         
                     
James   Glen   Head   Bo'ness   Bo'ness   Corb/hall   17   1854
Helen   Glen   Sister   Bo'ness   Bo'ness   Corb/hall   15   1856
Archibald   Glen   Brother   Bo'ness   Bo'ness   Corb/hall   13   1858
                     
Robert   Reid   ½ Cousin   Shotts   Bo'ness   Corb/hall   5   1866

Regards & looking forward to a result of some sort eventually,

Anne.
Title: Re: Glen of Bo'ness, Linlithgow, West Lothian
Post by: MonicaL on Tuesday 04 October 11 13:31 BST (UK)
Just adding some additonal info, in case you haven't come across it. From on line family tree (A/try), son George BROWN born c. 1845 showing as having married firstly a Margaret Hamilton in 1866 in Bo'ness. Father a George Brown, miner and mother Ann Johnston (who still is given as alive).

Wonder whether one of the witnesses, a Helen BROWN is AKA Grant/Glen etc...

Monica
Title: Re: Glen of Bo'ness, Linlithgow, West Lothian
Post by: indyblue on Saturday 08 October 11 11:43 BST (UK)
To Anne & Monica; thank you very much for your input; it was really appreciated. Nevertheless I am still a fair bit confused; mind you that is not very hard. It seems John Menzies (my great grandfather) who married Jane Beveridge on 08/10/1872 was a witness at Helen Glen's marriage to Robert Robertson on 10/06/1872. Both John Menzies and Helen Glen had the same mother on both marriage certificates; none other than Ann Glen M.S Johnston (deceased)

It may appear that John Menzies (senior) did marry Ann Glen after John Glen died; but again I cannot for the life of me find any record of this marriage.
But what really confuses me is that John Menzies (junior) name was actually John Grant Menzies and again cannot find any record of this.

Kind Regards,

Steve
Title: Re: Glen of Bo'ness, Linlithgow, West Lothian
Post by: indyblue on Friday 04 March 16 00:17 GMT (UK)
Hello it's Steve here again after some time away.
I'm still knocking my head against a brick wall trying to find out about John Menzies and Ann Glen.
John Menzies (born C1852) birth details and John Menzies (b C1830) Birth and marriage details are proving very hard to find. As far as Ann Glen is concerned; I know her maiden name was Johnston and that she married a few times. I have however; uncovered some information about Robert Reid who was John Menzies Jr cousin. Robert's father (also called Robert) was born in America according to Ancestry. Not sure when he arrived in Scotland though. Maybe John Menzies Sr was born in America. I've heard that Callendar House in Falkirk is the place to visit to find out about births out of wedlock; I think this has to be my next option. It just so happens that I will be visiting the UK in April/May this year so I will definitely pay it a visit.
To Anne; I'm sorry but I've lost your details (computer failure) which is the reason for my lack of correspondence.

Kind Regards,

Steve
Title: Re: Glen of Bo'ness, Linlithgow, West Lothian
Post by: Rosinish on Saturday 05 March 16 12:20 GMT (UK)
Hi Steve,

Glad to hear from you.

Likewise, I am still in the same boat…no further forward.

Been looking through my info. (on another comp).

From the 1861 census there was an Elizabeth Grant (Dau) b Bo'ness aged 1 (1860)

This is 1 birth which would have had to have been recorded (statutory births) but there was no birth on SP for her with a surname even similar to Grant with yrs 1858 – 1860.

I searched with forename (only) with name beginning Eli (in case it was indexed as EliSabeth) b Bo’ness but nothing showing.

So to date we have no record of any of the baptisms/births with any of the list of surnames.

Here is 1 I have and did wonder if this was possibly Elizabeth as her age would tie in on the census.... Father John Aitken, Mother Ann Aitken m/s Johnston

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQ8F-3XG

Now very curious as the birth from SP doesn’t say she’s illegitimate nor does it give marriage details of parents or any other previous names for Ann? but she would only have been 43 yrs old so could still be the mother.

The 3 births on the page give address as High St, so not much help there & none have marriage details for parents.

Another surname for the ever growing list.

Anne
Title: Re: Glen of Bo'ness, Linlithgow, West Lothian
Post by: Rosinish on Saturday 05 March 16 16:47 GMT (UK)
Quote from: indyblue on Friday 04 March 16 00:17 GMT (UK)
I have however; uncovered some information about Robert Reid who was John Menzies Jr cousin. Robert's father (also called Robert) was born in America according to Ancestry. Not sure when he arrived in Scotland though. Maybe John Menzies Sr was born in America.

Steve,

I have "a" Robert Reid on a passenger list for S. S. Campania leaving from Liverpool, England, Apr 1906 to New York arriving 24 Apr 1906

Robert Reid, age 41 (b c1865), Male, Married, Occ. Mason, Nationality "G Britain", Race "Scotch", Last residence Glasgow, Final destination New Bern, Iowa, Where going (column out of sinc) but looks to be...Mrs Frew (Cousin), 613, Moravia, N Berne (sic), Iowa

Do you have anything on Robert Reid in Iowa after his arrival assuming this is the correct man?

Would be interesting to know who Mrs Frew was, what her maiden name was & where she was born?

Found this for an Isabel Frew b 1847, d 1935 but no telling if it's relevant....relying on her Scottish forename being of possible significance?

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVMF-BM8B

Annie
Title: Re: Glen of Bo'ness, Linlithgow, West Lothian
Post by: Rosinish on Saturday 05 March 16 18:13 GMT (UK)
Quote from: Rosinish on Saturday 19 June 10 17:49 BST (UK)
I have no record of a marriage for his parents John & Ann although John's death cert. says married to Ann Johnston. I have no death record for her either. Is it possible that

I forgot to mention that I did later find the marriage for John (Glen)dinning (Single) & Anne (Johnston)e (Widow) 31 Dec 1862 Corbiehall Bridge, Bo'ness, Linlithgow

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XY75-LZQ

Her parents John Johnstone & Helen Thomson (both deceased)

Witnesses John McNaylor? (hard to read) & Richard Grant........he pops up a lot & may be the brother of her 1st hubby Charles Grant as he had many siblings including a Richard......

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01h6y/

I doubt this brick wall will ever be knocked down to be honest with so much lack of info.

I also believe Monica could be right regarding Helen.....

Quote from: MonicaL on Tuesday 04 October 11 13:31 BST (UK)
From on line family tree (A/try), son George BROWN born c. 1845 showing as having married firstly a Margaret Hamilton in 1866 in Bo'ness. Father a George Brown, miner and mother Ann Johnston (who still is given as alive).

Wonder whether one of the witnesses, a Helen BROWN is AKA Grant/Glen etc...

Annie
Title: Re: Glen of Bo'ness, Linlithgow, West Lothian
Post by: indyblue on Monday 07 March 16 00:16 GMT (UK)
Hi Anne;
I have actually found Ann Johnston's birth and death details. She was born Ann Burns Johnston on 07.10.1816  to parents John Johnston and Helen Thomson in Bo'ness. She was baptized on 13.10.1816. She died as Ann Glendinning on 11.02.1871 being a widow of John Glendinning. The informant on the death certificate was Charles Grant (son). This hasn't made the slightest bit of difference though; as I still can't find a marriage between John Menzies and Ann Glendinning.
As far as Robert Reid was concerned; both were blastfurnacemen.
I have found your email Anne and have sent you a message.
Kind Regards,
Steve
Title: Re: Glen of Bo'ness, Linlithgow, West Lothian
Post by: Rosinish on Monday 07 March 16 14:30 GMT (UK)
Hi Steve,

I have just been through my history on SP as I couldn't find that death anywhere.

Is this the one......

1   1871   GLENDINNING   ANN           F   4   BO'NESS   /WEST LOTHIAN   663/00 0011

If so, you can get in touch with SP & let them know the age is wrong & they will reinstate your credits, hence the reason I didn't download it or that would have been solved years ago  ::)

Charles was her 1st son, the only child to her 1st marriage who should have known all her details. I don't understand why she hasn't come up on the index by her maiden name though? The cert. should have stated at least her maiden name you would have thought?

It would be interesting to see the cert. I will email you with everything when I get a chance as I haven't received yours & all my info. is on a different comp.

I posted on another thread a few years back but I haven't pursued it as the tangle was more important being as I was following the line of Archibald Glen/Grant & trying to establish his father with as you know, no joy.

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=394478.msg4963205#msg4963205

I have been through familysearch with only maiden name as Johnston thinking the children may have been one of Ann's 3 sister's who may have died but again the names of James, Helen Archibald & Elizabeth don't surface. I tried with only father's surname Grant & nothing........it's a mystery who these children belong to but obviously not christened, well I don't think so at this moment?

Anne
Title: Re: Glen of Bo'ness, Linlithgow, West Lothian
Post by: indyblue on Tuesday 08 March 16 02:19 GMT (UK)
Hi Anne;

Well I'm even more confused now. It is the death certificate that you mentioned; however it states Ann's age at 54. Since she was born in 1816; I would've thought that was correct. It also mentions that she was the widow of John Glendinning and that her parents were John Johnston and Helen Johnston (M.S. Thomson) both deceased. Unless I'm missing something; this ties in as Ann Johnston married John Glendinning on 31.12.1862. She was a widow and 46 at the time. Again her parents were listed as John and Helen; both deceased. I think John Glendinning died only after a couple of years into the marriage. I suppose the confusing thing about this is the fact that she used her maiden name for the marriage and NOT the name of Grant.
I will send you everything that I have also once your correct email is confirmed.

Kind Regards,

Steve
Title: Re: Glen of Bo'ness, Linlithgow, West Lothian
Post by: Rosinish on Tuesday 08 March 16 05:17 GMT (UK)
Hi Steve,

I have John's DC which I will send.

That was how I discovered he was unlikely to be the father of Archibald & siblings Glen/Grant.

It is strange however, that the others have surnames Menzies & Brown but neither baptisms can be found.

I wonder if Richard Grant, brother of 1st hubby Charles was the father but there is also a John Grant as hubby on 1861 census.

I also looke for children with father John Grant with mother's name blank & again zilch.

I hav tried every possible scenario & cannot find anything. Of course, any illegitimate children would be named Grant whether christened or not as that was legally her surname by then although widowed.

I don't have a marriage for brother James yet (haven't looked) as I'd spent so much by then with no results.

Annie