RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Sutherland => Topic started by: Martin Briscoe on Saturday 31 July 10 12:28 BST (UK)
-
I was photographing the last few war graves in the North of Scotland for the War Grave Photographic Project last week.
Whilst photographing an outstanding one in Torrisdale Burial Ground I happened to notice one headstone for a Peggy James age 35 who was lost at sea on SS Sagaing on 19 October 1939 along with her two children.
I looked up the ship when I got home and it was attacked by a U-Boat the previous day but is reported undamaged so wondered how three could be lost at sea.
The memorial appears to have been erected by her husband.
I just wondered if anyone with any knowledge of the area knows any more of the story?
Martin Briscoe
Fort William
-
Martin, Hi
I have more detail for the Peggy James you mention.
Her husband was a Jack James(born Abingdon, Oxs). HE is my wife's grandfather.
He married again to a Peggy Joy Belton in 1943/1944? and he died just after D-Day in Herioville near Caen France. He is buired in Ranville France. They had one daughter Angela James now Angela Tate.
I have been trying to get further info for my mother in law on the whole affair and having this extra info helps.
Where exactely was the grave? My mother in law would like to visit some time.
Have attached one pic. Would you like more pics of them and/or further info at all?
Regards
Robert Loakes
-
Go to this site and enter TORRISDALE
http://www.infromthecold.org/war_grave_cemeteries.asp?from=search
It will bring up an aerial view, if you zoom out you will be able to see where it is.
I can send the pictures that I took if you wish, send me an EMail Address by Private Message.
Have you seen Jack James' grave?
http://www.twgpp.org/information.php?id=2296711
MB
-
It looks as if the correct name of the burial ground is SKERRAY
http://her.highland.gov.uk/SingleResult.aspx?uid=MHG44759
MB
-
Martin, thanks for all that. I have sent a message to you web page contact email. Did you get that. Regards
Robert Loakes
-
Hello,
I came across this post as I have been researcing an incident that presumably occurred at the same time. My Grand parents were aboard the SS Sagaing with their children on the way back from India via Malta and following what was at the time thought to be a U boat attack on the 18th October 1939 they also lost 2 children from an innappropropriately launched life boat on the SS Sagaing.A third child was in the boat but survived and amazingly my mother suvived a fall from the lifeboat deck to the one below!
The ship was part of convoy HG3.that ws attacked on the previous day by U boat with the loss of the Yorkshire.
I have a statement made by my Grandfather about the incident he was in the RA.(Iwould attatch it if I knew how) I have been unable so far to get a copy of the ships log.
There is another thread on this site titled lost at sea by a Teddy Edards that appears to be about the same incident.I have left message but no reply.
-
Roy,I guess it is Roy?
My mother in laws father's 1st wife was lost with 2 children on the sagaing as noted in the original post by Martin about the cemetery in Skerray.
Do you still need further information?
I have via Martin also heard from someone else who lived in Canada who was on the sagaing at the time of the accident in oct 1939 and knew the people who were lost.
Would you like further info?
If you have anything that you could share, that would be good too.
Thanks Robert Loakes
-
Hi Robert,
I have a typed account of the incident written by my Grandfather if you would like a copy.
I have also been to the National archive and seen the Ships log.It was not possible to get copies and the document is not for digitisation.The log is in a file with only a couple of others.The document has been subject to the 30 year rule and is marked to be preserved and to be reviewed under supervision only and we were!!
The are some differences in the way the log has been written when compared to the others in the group.The logged account does not quite tally with that of my Grandfather.I have pictures of the logs pages on my I pad.
I thought that maybe there would have been a board of trade enquirey but I wouldn't really know how to find the relevant record although I have had a go.
I stopped reseach for a while as my Mother became quite upset and began again to have nightmares seeing the boat torpedoed on the previous day going down.
My mother remembers the lost lady and the children from the previous post.
I am not sure how to attach this stuff on this site but I can handle E mail. I notice from above that it may be possible to send a private message with an E mail address but I dont know how to do that Sorry.
Have got to go now but keep i touch
I will see if I can find some time to learn how to use this site.
Roy
-
Roy that is great
My email address is robertloakes@yahoo.com if you want to email me.
I will get a transcript done for you too saying what I have found out.
Where did you go to see the log?
Regards
robert
-
I have had another reply on Ship Nostalgia (http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/showthread.php?t=34979)from C R Scruby who was on the SAGAING, trying to get an EMail address.
-
I can't find an Admiralty War Diary entry for the SAGAING on 19.10.39 but there is this on 18.10.39 (from FOLD3)
Ships attacked
SAGAING escaped
0653
SS SAGAING chased by s/m SSSS 46° 17'N. 13° 12' W.
0738
SS SAGAING another s/m appeared 46° 19' N. 13° 0' W.
0844
SS GARTERATTAN (1800 tons) chased by s/m SSSS 46° 30' N. 12° 46' W. Escaped. This was also attacked next day.
For both the above ships see M.012914/39 Report by Master of SS. BRITISH CAPTAIN on s/m attacks on Convoy H.G. 3.
-
I have been fascinated by the gravestone for Peggy James and her daughters for a number of years, since I first visited the cemetery. On a recent visit I decided that I really must find out more about the family and the Sagaing, for a friend who is writing a book with a chapter in it that is about the area.
I found the family on the 1939 Sagaing passenger list but also on two other passenger lists; one coming from Montreal to Liverpool (previous place of permanent residence China) in August 1936 and then the family departing Liverpool on 30 January 1937 destination Hong Kong. I am presuming it is the same family on both occasions, as the names are correct and the girls are the correct ages, but the father is a Francis P R James, Civil Servant, not Jack. Was he just known as Jack because he didn't like being called Francis?
Does anyone know why the headstone to Peggy, Patricia and Jacqueline was erected at Skerray? Did they have family connections in that area?
Any information would be much appreciated.
Gillean
-
I have been fascinated by the gravestone for Peggy James and her daughters for a number of years, since I first visited the cemetery. On a recent visit I decided that I really must find out more about the family and the Sagaing, for a friend who is writing a book with a chapter in it that is about the area.
I found the family on the 1939 Sagaing passenger list but also on two other passenger lists; one coming from Montreal to Liverpool (previous place of permanent residence China) in August 1936 and then the family departing Liverpool on 30 January 1937 destination Hong Kong. I am presuming it is the same family on both occasions, as the names are correct and the girls are the correct ages, but the father is a Francis P R James, Civil Servant, not Jack. Was he just known as Jack because he didn't like being called Francis?
Does anyone know why the headstone to Peggy, Patricia and Jacqueline was erected at Skerray? Did they have family connections in that area?
Any information would be much appreciated.
Gillean
If you read through the thread there are a couple of posts from people with knowledge of the incident.
I also posted on SHIPNOSTALGIA (http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/showthread.php?t=34979&highlight=sagaing)and had a reply from someone who was on board the vessel as a child and had played with the family. If you register for the site then you should be able to send him a message.
-
Have you thought of trying the newspaper for that area?
Northern Times (http://www.northern-times.co.uk/Home/)
This might be able to make a story out of it and it could bring up some local information?
There are quite a few very local newsletters that just circulate around a small area but you would need to ask somewhere near there if anything - the nearest library might have suggestions - Bettyhill (https://www.highlifehighland.com/libraries/bettyhill-library-and-service-point/).
It's an intriguing story, when I photographed the headstone I looked it up when I got home but never thought it would be so complicated!
-
Thanks Martin.
I will keep searching.
-
Gillean
Hi my name is Robert Loakes. You will have probably read my post on jack James and hist wife and daughters who died on the Sagaing.
Can I help in any other way?
I am confused why you think that Jack James was called Francis. What information do you have on that?
Jack James was in the Army in late 1939 in India with his wife and 2 children. At the outbreak on the war they had to return to the UK. He was on 1 boat and his wife and 2 children were on the Sagaing. They were lost overboard near Cornwall as were many others during a 'expected' submarine attack.
I don't mind giving an email address if it helps as I could give you some more information.
Regards
Robert
-
Hello Robert,
I should appreciate an email address and then we can look at the info I have found and compare notes before I post anything else on the subject.
This is a fascinating story, and a bit of a mystery as there seems to be two families with the same names!
Best regards,
Gillean
-
Hello Robert,
I should appreciate an email address and then we can look at the info I have found and compare notes before I post anything else on the subject.
This is a fascinating story, and a bit of a mystery as there seems to be two families with the same names!
Best regards,
Gillean
Could be worse, I came across two brothers with the same name who were Killed in Action in the same battle in WWI. Didn't half confuse the Army Records Office!
-
Gillean
my email address is * See next reply.
Regards
robert
-
Hi RoyW or RobertLoakes,
regarding Convoy HG-3, I have an Elderly friend (98) who was on the ship "Regestan" sailing back to UK from Gibraltar. On the 17 Oct 1939 she had just went on deck, she was looking straight across at the ship "Yorkshire" which was the ship next to hers in the convoy, next thing a massive orange flame went up from the "Yorkshire" she had been hit by a U-Boat. On the right side of the Regestan was the ship "City Of Mandalay", within a few minutes of the "Yorkshire" being hit, the "City Of Mandalay" was also hit, both ships sank in about 14 minutes.
My friend Phyllis, often talks about that day, and I said I would try and find out about it and if any one had any more information or story's of that time. I have a lot of German U-boat reports, and some even say the "Sagaing" was sank, so a lot of conflicting reports. She didn't see anyone get out of the Yorkshire or the "City Of Mandalay", but they said 300 were rescued.
My E-mail is (*)
Nick Dooley
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
See Help-Page: http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
-
This is the Admiralty War Diary entry (from FOLD3)
-
Just looking at those entried for Francis P James, very odd with the children's names being the same and ages about right. But he is older than Jack James
DUCHESS OF YORK arriving Liverpool 7 Aug 1936 from Montreal.
Also a Mrs Rita James age 29.
There is also the SS PETER arriving New York from the Canal Zone 16 July 1936.
Francis now shown as Govt Official and Irish but born India.
Rita shown this time in the line below Francis and both shown married.
The two children are shown born China which would explain why not on British BMD.
If it is the two children then something very complicated going on but perhaps just coincidence!
-
Sorry I haven't studied all facts so far but....
Just a thought...
Is it possible that Francis P & Mrs Rita were 'in-laws' although both described as married may not necessarily mean to each other ???
Has anyone checked the 1939 registers for both names?
Annie
-
We can rule out France James as just coincidence.
Francis P. James Age 51 arrived New York on QUEEN ELIZABETH 19 April 1947 with Patricia K. James age 16 and Jacqueline C. R. James Age 13. Mrs Margarita James Age 40 though with line through her.
Places of birth and nationality as previous.
-
Making sense at last!
I found another tree on Ancestry which gives the name of Peggy as Williamina M (Peggy) MacKay.
It has the birth place as Abingdon but MacKay is a common name in Sutherland so I checked ScotlandsPeople and found this in the index for 1904
MACKAY
WILLIAMINA MARG
F
1904
056/ 13
Tongue
The marriage was Q4 1928 in Abingdon.
Explains why the memorial was erected at Skerray.
MB
-
I have some credits with ScotlandsPeople so looked at the full birth record.
Williamina Margaret MacKay
2nd April 1904
9 a.m.
Lambhill, Skerray, Tongue
Father - Peter MacKay, Postman
Mother - Caroline MacKay, maiden name MacKay. Married 25th November 1898, Skerray, Tongue
Father present
Registered in Tongue 10th May 1904
To explain my comment about MacKay being a common name in Sutherland. There are three births recorded on that page. All are Mackay!
-
I collected together the messages posted in this thread and made up a PDF file to show friends the story.
I have thought about passing on a copy to the archive to put in a place of public record - does anyone have any objection?
Also I feel the story should be wider known. How about a local newspaper or even the BBC News Highlands & Islands section?
-
The U-Boat log has been posted in another thread and also on SHIPSNOSTALGIA
-
The grave is starting to suffer from the weather.