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Independent Islands => Alderney, Guernsey, Jersey, Sark => Topic started by: MalNZ on Wednesday 24 November 10 04:55 GMT (UK)
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Henry Edward Bennett was a baker and confectioner by trade. He was reputedly to have been associated with MacIntosh Toffees company .
A family researcher in the 1960's traced his forebears and I believe mistakes were made as to the maiden name of his mother, Harriet, and a few other details which may actually pertain to his wife. Unfortunately the researcher gave no sources.
Some key dates and places need to be sourced again, independently, and these are highlighted below.
Harriet (also Hariott) apparently was born in St Peter's Port, Guernsey in 1805. HER BIRTH, CHRISTENING, MARRIAGE AND DEATH DATES ARE UNKNOWN. Harriet's husband is Edward , a tailor born about 1806 in England. He died before 1851 (?DATE).
The following are known from official records and the family records concur, except where noted.
1841 Census: 31 Sand Street, St Helier
Harriet 35 (1806) not born in census area (but in the Channel Is)
Edward 12 (1829) born in census area (St Helier)
Harriet 14 (1827) not born in census area (but in the Channel Is)
Susanna 10 (1831) born in census area (St Helier)
Thomas 7 (1834) born in census area (St Helier)
Maria 3 (1838) born in census area (St Helier)
Henry 9m born in census area (St Helier)
The date of Henry's birth (14/8/1840) fits moderately well with the census 9 months later (6/6/1841).
1851 Census, 16 Roseville Street, St Helier
Harriet 46 (1805) St Helier born Guernsey, St Peter's Port, widow
Edward 22 (1829) St Helier born St Helier, blacksmith
Thomas 15 (1836) St Helier born St Helier, errand boy (NB 2 year discrepancy)
Maria 13 (1838) St Helier born St Helier, scholar
Henry 9 (1842) St Helier born St Helier, scholar (NB 2 year discrepancy)
Francis 2 (1849) St Helier born St Helier (recorded as "grandson" but as "son" in 1861 census.- Susanna's possibly illegitimate son as father is not recorded at his baptism (St Helier's - 14/7/1859).
Henry Edward Bennett married Eliza Alice Downing reputedly on 27/1/1867 by Rev Langtry (NEEDS TO BE CHECKED and any associated details ascertained) at St Saviour's, Jersey. If correct then the known dates of his daughters' (first 2) births suggest they were born out of wedlock and be in conflict with details of her previous marriage. Family emigrated to NZ in 1875. He died in NZ on 27/9/1942 - aged 102. A g-granddaughter who remembered him during his last 15 years died also at a great age only a few months ago,170 years after his birth!
Any details or directions to acquire certificates etc would be greatly appreciated. I think I have accessed all relevant online resources. The key thing is to have independent confirmation or otherwise of these details by persons not imbued with all the myths and misconceptions of a family now so distant from the original sources.
Many thanks in anticipation
MalNZ
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Hi MalNZ
The Jersey entries are not too difficult to ascertain and I can check on these in the next few days. I'm afraid I can't do any Guernsey lookups.
I can see on-line that Francis was indeed the illegitimate son of Susanna. If you haven't already done so go to
http://jerseyheritagetrust.jeron.je/home.html
and click on Archive. Then click on Name and type in Bennett, Francis. Then click on the 3rd entry down Baptism Records. Click on More Details and then Transcription etc. The next page may take a minute or so to load as its a PDF file. Once loaded search for Bennett and you will eventually find the baptism record for Francis.
Remember Civil Registration didn't start in Jersey until 1842 so you cannot get certificates prior to this date. The Baptism records aren't available due to their condition, only transcriptions. If there is a certificate available then they cost £20 and are obtained from:
Superintendent Registrar
10 Royal Square,
St Helier,
Jersey,
JE2 4WA.
I'll get back to you.
Stewart
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Hi
These are the baptisms that I have found. They are all in St Helier Parish Church.
Edward Bennett - 10th May 1829
Susanna Vincent Bennett - 15th May 1831
Thomas John Bennett - 6th Nov 1833, died 21st Dec 1833 aged 10 weeks
Thomas John Bennett - 11th Jan 1835
Maria Mary Ann Bennett - 3rd Feb 1839.
All of the above are to Edward and Harriet Bennett although one of them gives the fathers name as Edward Harvey Bennett.
Strangely there is a baptism for a Harriet Bennett on 23rd Sep 1827 but the father is Edward Bennet and the mother Mary!
The death of Edward Bennett is recorded in the index for St Helier, Aug 1850 to Dec 1851, volume 7, page 20.
The marriage of HEB is St Saviour Parish Marriages, Apr 1866 to Feb 1869, page 142. There is an Elizabeth Downing on the same page.
I've already mentioned about Francis and I couldn't see an entry for Henry.
Hope that helps.
Stewart
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Hi Stewart,
You have confirmed my worst suspicions that my relative got things wrong in the 1960's. You say Eliza Downing and HEB are on the same page in St Saviour's records. Are they listed separately and not noted as partners? The baby Edward John was not known to the recent generations of our family.
The marriage of HEB and ED must be correct and the first two children noted in the 1871 St Helier census, could well be adopted from Eliza's previous marriage. Is there any way of finding out? The name is possibly DAVIS or probably LARKIN. I found no possible corresponding baptisms in the St Helier's listings for these names.
HENRY 29
ELIZA (40 STRUCK THROUGH AND NOT READABLE ON MY COPY but known to be much older than her husband)
HENRIETTA 7
HENRY E 5
HARRIET M 3
HELENA 2
(and Alice born 1873)
Henrietta was at a Catholic School before coming to NZ in 1875. Her medal for "Good conduct and advancement in learning from the Catholic School Committee" has no identification on it apart from
MATER AMIRABILIS MONSTRA TE ESSE MATREM and
SOC PAUPERUM INSTITUTIONE PROMOVENDAE
which may give a clue to the school. Are there school records? She was known to be not a catholic and was married in an Anglican Church in NZ. There myths of "social disgrace" in this family!
This record is probably of Eliza Downing with her previous husband.
1861 Census Union Street St Helier
Larkin, Patrick G 36 bmkr Ireland
Elizabeth 32 boot binder England
Elizabeth (Lizzie) 16 scholar England
Many thanks for your efforts
Malnz
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Hi MalNZ
The index is just a straight list of (single) names contained in a volume which spans a period.
So I can see by checking the "B" index there is HEB in St Saviour Parish Marriages, Apr 1866 to Feb 1869, page 142. At this point there is no connection with any other name. To confirm who he married you have to look at the certificate. However, I can see by checking the "D" index that there is an ED listed on page 142. This doesn't confirm that they were the couple that married as there are probably 10 names per page. As I say you have to look at the certificate.
As regards school records those that still exists are lodged with the school and not at the Archive. I know, because my daughter went there, that there is only one girls Catholic School but that didn't start until the 1950's.
I can take a trip to the Registry Office some time next week and have a look at the certificates and report back. If ED had been married before it will hopefully say widow rather than spinster and if the Rector was good, also report who was her late husband.
I think it all rests on me seeing the certificate.
Stewart
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Hi
The death of Edward Bennett was 10th Nov 1850. EB was 47 years old and a tailleur. He died from Phthisie at Roseville Street, St Helier and the death was reported by Edward Bennett.
As regards the marriage of Howard Bennett you are indeed in luck!!
Howard Bennett was aged 26 years, a bachelor and a baker. He was living and born in St Helier. His father was Edward Bennett who was a tailor. The marriage took place on 28th Jan 1867.
Eliza Downing was the widow of Patrick Larkin. She was aged 36, a widow and living in St Helier. She was however born in Exeter, Devon, the daughter of John Downing, a farmer.
The marriage was witnessed by Daniel Scooner and Marie Bennett. The ceremony was conducted by William Corbett Le Breton - the father of Lillie Langtry.
Stewart
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Hi Stewart,
Many thanks again. It is nice to have those details which often lead to filling a small gap or add twigs to the branches. Especially important was Daniel Scooner/Scoons/Scombes who kept cropping up as godfather to some of his wife's siblings' children. I wasn't quite certain that he and Marie in those records were Henry's sister and brother-in-law, but now the whole picture of the family in St Helier is emerging. Only Henry emigrated, though I suspect another went to England - hardly emigration. With him it is now hopefully complete to 1890. The confirmation of names and dates, with references is a real boon, turning myth in reality.
Is it possible to have any details for Patrick G Larkin (probably a bootmaker and possibly ex army) and their daughter Elizabeth (adopted ex Davis)? What a story that one is too. My dear gggrandmother eloped with Davis at 16 and possibly went to France to be married. Elizabeth was born and the family paid to have the marriage annulled. She was sent to Jersey as the black sheep of the family. Davis was never heard of again. She married Larkin (?date) and he adopted Elizabeth. Some children were born (?3) but Elizabeth and these were NEVER mentioned in the "polite" circles of the family in NZ. Indeed I heard about them only a few years (?8) ago from a gggranddaughter who died in her late 80's about 3 years ago (She lived for several years in the old family home with Henry Edward). I have no idea what happened to Elizabeth (Lizzie) or the other children (?2 m, 1 f) as they did not come out to NZ with HEB and Eliza. She must have left them behind at young ages (at most 14) and I can only surmise that Elizabeth perhaps married and raised them as her own.
With best wishes
MalNZ
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Just to let you know I haven't forgotten you. The Archive is closed at the moment for stock taking!
Stewart
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Hi
Could you just confirm what I'm looking for as I'm a little confused:
Any Larkin children between 1861 ( the census with no children apart from Elizabeth Jnr) and 1867, Elizabeth Snr's marriage to Howard Bennett.
The death of Philip Larkin beyween 1861 and 1867.
A possible marriage of Philip Larkin to Elizabeth before 1861.
Thanks.
Stewart
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Hi Stewart,
The only real data are in the 1861 census and the marriage date of Elizabeth Larkin to Edward (not Howard) Bennett in 1867.
1861
Patrick G Larkin 36 bootmaker b. Ireland
Elizabeth 32 boot binder b. England (known as Eliza)
Elizabeth 16 scholar b. ditto
Elizabeth is Larkin's adopted daughter by Elizabeth's (Eliza) previous elopement and marriage (to Davis which was annulled by family (present family recollection)). Larkin died sometime between 1861 and 1867. Elizabeth snr had 2 daughters and a son (so the family data records) but the two elder Bennett children were born BEFORE the marriage to Edward Bennett (Eliza then a widow) in 1867. It is not known who fathered them as the family records them only as Bennett and there is no family 'rumour' that they were adopted by Edward.
So two key questions
when and where did Patrick (not Philip) Larkin marry Eliza Downing/Davis?
when and where did Patrick Larkin die after 1861 and before 1867?
See my previous post re the two children, Henrietta (7) and Henry E. (5), recorded in the 1871 census whose ages denote births before 1867
Hope this clarifies a very messy situation.
Cheers
MalNZ
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I think I've got it!!
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Hi MalNZ
First the good news. I can see a death in St Helier for a Patrick Larkins (note the "s"), Dec 1861 to May 1863, volume 15, page 27. I can look at the certificate tomorrow and check that it's the right person.
I cannot see a marriage for a Patrick Larkin between 1851 and 1861.
As for children, bearing in mind that Patrick died no later than 1863 and the first child was born 1864, and the fact that I can't find any Larkin births between 1861 and 1867 and I said that Eliza married in 1867...........
I need to go back and check the marriage for Eliza Downing. I can see that I have type Howard Bennett instead of Henry Bennett :-\ Also I could have a look for Bennett children between 1863 and 1871.
I'm sorry if I'm confusing both you and me. When I research a number of requests all at the same time you tend to loose the thread.
Stewart
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Hi
Right - progress at last!
First of all I have checked the marriage of Eliza Downing. Where I have written Howard would you please change this to Henry. I have also checked the date and this is correct. Also, John Downing's occupation could be also interpreted as "tanner" rather than "farmer".
Next the death of Patrick Larkin(s). This happened at 3:30pm on 14th May 1862 at Hue Street, St Helier. Patrick was 39 years old and was a Marchand de Muebles (furniture salesman). He died from "inflamination de pouerous" and the death was reported by Bridget Larkin of 5, Gas Lane, St Helier. She couldn't write her name and signed with an "X". Question - is this the right Patrick?
I have found all of the children mentioned in the 1871 census (plus Alice) and they are all under the surname of Bennett and born in St Helier.
Henrietta - 9th Dec 1863 to 6th Jan 1865, volume 20, page 8
Henry Edward - 7th Jan 1865 to 2nd Feb 1866, volume 21, page 93
Harriet Mary - 9th Mar 1867 to 8th May 1868, volume 23, page 30
Helena Miriam Victoria - 9th May 1868 to 22nd Jul 1869, volume 24, page 59
Alice Maud - 26th Nov 1871 to 112th Mar 1873, volume 27, page 68
I didn't have time to look at all of the certificates but I did look at Henrietta's. She was born at 2:30am, 25th Dec 1863 at 14, Garden Lane, St Helier. Her father was Henry Bennett a boulanger and her mother was Eliza Larkin. The birth was reported by Susanna Stye.
So the reason why the 3 children weren't mentioned is probably because they were born out of wedlock.
Hope that helps.
Stewart
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Hi Stewart,
Hope you are having a good Christmas and New Year, and the weather is behaving better there than in UK.
Our festivities caught up with me and long letters from a cousin re his incorrect details re this family had to be sorted out and changed. Interestingly he raised a point about the forenames. The last three daughters have always had three here in NZ but your notes and the census records only show one or two. If you able check on these he and I would be most relieved.
Harriet Mary Theresa
Alice Maud Mary
Our Patrick Larkin is probably not the one you have noted in your message. His age and occupation do not fit. Although the age is close, 37 for Patrick G. in 1862, the occupation has changed from boot-maker in the 1861 census to furniture dealer at death 11 months later. Bridget, the informant is unknown to our family. I seem to have misplaced my copy of the 1861 census page so I cannot check the address for Patrick G.
Also interesting is the lack of a record for Henry in the 1861 census when the remnant of the family was at 15 Oxford Road. But this actually poses another problem. Recorded in 1861 is Clement Bennett, a baker, the same age as Henry. This is the only time that name appears and it may well be a mis-transcription in the records.
Presumably Henry was living with Eliza from about Mar 1863 at 14 Garden Lane and shifted to 7 Poonah Lane by the 1871 census.
Interesting to see that the birth of Henrietta is reported by Susanna Stye (Styles), Henry's sister, now married to John Edward Styles. She had an illegitimate son in 1849.
Another family dinner today. Shall see what my brother thinks about all this. Your work is much appreciated by us all and is a good topic for comparison between family views of Victorian times with those, supposedly much freer. views of today.
Best wishes
MalNZ
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Hi Mal
Have been to look at the certificates and I'm afraid there's a sting in the tail!! I'll list what I found as I've looked at the remaining 4 children.
Henry Edward was born 9:45am 14th Dec 1865 at 24 Aquila Road. Father was Henry, a patissier and mother was Eliza Downing.
Helena Miriam Victoria was born 11am 4th Jan 1869 at Aquila Road. Father was Henry, a boulanger and mother Eliza Downing.
Harriet Mary was born 9am, 10th Jul 1867 at Poonah Road. Father was Henry a boulanger and mother Eliza Downing.
Now.... Alice Maud was born 14th Oct 1872 at 4 Waterloo Street, Father was Thomas John Bennett, a hotellier and mother Ellen Welch.
I'll let you think about that.
All first names are as per the census.
Poonah Road, Aquila Road and Garden Lane are all near each other. It doesn't follow that they were necessarily living there - it was where the child was born. Waterloo Street is much further away.
Stewart
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Hi Stewart,
Many thanks for those details.
You have found Alice Maud, born 1872, Henry's niece.
Henry's daughter is Alice Mary Maud, born November 1871 (unconfirmed).
Re Patrick G. Larkin. Have found my copy of the census page (St Helier 4397/62/p29). He, Eliza and Elizabeth were at 30 Union Street St Helier.
Cheers
MalNZ