RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: youngjo on Wednesday 24 November 10 10:32 GMT (UK)
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Recently my father discoverd information about his family...uncles/aunts that his own fater never told him he had and we dont know why.
On the 1911 census the occupation of my Great Grandfather John YOUNG, Hexham was 'Hawker'. His wife was Rachel Miller. They had a family and that was my grandfathers mum and dad. We have found relatives but they are very quick to hide any Romany roots. We cannot understand as they are all very dark skinned even my dad and to some extent my sister and myself. How can we find out more?
Really would love to know how to find out more, as we now live in Ireland it is hard to trace the info needed. Would love some advice/help for anyone with Romany expertise and esp info on the Northumberland/Carlisle area?
J.
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hi, youngjo. i may be able to help you a little. i am a full blood romany, but now live in a house, although my sons still live the traveller life in caravans. my mother was louisa miller from carlisle.born in a gypsy wagon in annan scotland 1928. her father was william miller horse, and general dealer. 1893-1958. his father was james miller same occupation.and so on at least to 1780s. there are lots of the family living in cumbria and scotland.and they all had large familys, but they came from lancashire in the 19th century. along with my own family the mitchells who were pottery and eartheware dealer and hawkers market trading etc. one of the millers wed a woman called dewsnap. from alston northumberland area. and did live and travel that area. i would need more info to see if i know any names etc, there are lots of youngs in scotland with romany connections. also some in carlisle who were involved with travellers,and horses etc. my own maternal grandmother was a donague of irish stock. there are lots of occupations that gypsys did in the past that can give you hints. also family names and surnames of other travelling famliys that marry in. it is a very rich history, but can be confusing because of the same names that are used again and again. for ex, there areat least six billy millers in carlisle. and five robert michell all related? but anyway if i can help, give me what you can and i will try to put it together. you can find lots on the aforsaid familys in the (lanc opc)site its free. also romanygenes. but there are lots of travelling web site if you look.see what you come up with bye for now ..rob..g
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If you let us know the facts as you know them (exclude any information of living people) we can try to trace them on the census and the like.
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First thanks Toni and Rob g for your prompt replies. I have very little really but here it is
John T. Young and Rachel Miller were my ggrandparents.
William, their son was my grandfather was born in 1920 and he was second eldest so Im presuming they married in their early 20's around1913/1915 and dob approx 1890. I know its very little but im hoping to get more form my sister who lives in UK soon. They Lived in Hexham in a tenement.
Rob g - thanks for all that detal and Toni - hope this tiny piece of info helps.
Their occupation was "Hawker" and general dealer. I would so love to find out anything...
Thanks
J
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hi, j, i have not the time at present to look further, but i did find many rachel millers in cumbria, if you go to the l.d.s familysearch, and beta search sites, you will find lots of rachel millers,in this area, some of whom are related to me i did have a great and g.g.grandad james, and mary miller carlisle. and a g.g.uncle george, jacob, and matt who all travelled the north of england, and lived in carlisle and all over cumbria it sounds to me as if there is a connection. you may have tried these sites allready? if not they are free to search, and i am sure you will find something. ( cushty bock,)...good luck in romany..rob..g
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here are the details you need to get a copy of their marriage certificate from the GRO
Marriages Mar 1915
Miller Rachel (spouse) Young Hexham 10b 611
Young John T (Spouse) Miller Hexham 10b 611
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there are 12 Young mmn. Miller births in Hexham beginning in 1915 with Mary J and 1918 with Frank then followed by William , the births go right up to 1934 so they may not all belong to you especially if they travelled around alot
to progress further back we either need the marriage certificate with their ages and fathers on or their death details from the GRO index which would give an approximate age and then we could look for their births based on these details
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i see now in your first post you say that JOhn Young was a Hawker on the 1911 census and his wife was Rachel Miller do you already know Johns y.o.b & p.o.b ? was Rachel already living with him ?
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Toni - That looks like the year they married, my grandfater was william and mary and frank are also my grand uncle and aunt, they had nine children as far as i know and i dont know if they lived together before marriage John T's dob or pob unfortunately.
My sis is going to order their marr cert fro the gro tomorrow and as soon as we have this we might be in luck. Thanks so much and i will keep you posted very soon with this info when i hav it.
rob g i havent tried these searching sites and its very interesting that you have similar connections to millers especially rachel miller, i am hoping the marriage cert will give me a bit more to go on. Have very little to say they were romany people other than hawker and names, how else can you know that they were romany gypsies?
thank you for your help
joanne
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In your first post you say that William was the eldest child b. 1920 but from the GRO index I can see that both Mary & Frank are older than William.
If all the 12 births in Hexham do belong to your John & Rachel some may have died as infants but it does also show that they didn’t move around after they married.
Do you know when John and Rachel died and where or at least an approximate?
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i see a possible death for JOhn T Young in Hexham in 1931 aged 38
Vol: 10b
P: 424
this would make him born 1893 and would make him aged circa 22 when he married Rachel if it is the same one.
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In the 1901 census there is John T Young b. 1893 Walton Le Wood Durham he is with his parents in West Auckland, his father John is a coal miner hewer
As there is no proof that this is your family as yet and there is also no proof that this family were travellers as yet I think I will leave it at that and wait for yout o post details of the marriage certificate
:)
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h,i joanne. your question on how to tell if there is a romany connection? well unless another traveller can verify it, as i did in a wilson, surname connection, with a member in scotland whose aunt was my .g.grandmother. annie wilson. nee lee. buried in carlisle.it can be hard, the only real way is to find other romany surnames.that can link you in. i will give you some of the oldest names but there are lots, and some times if a gypsy girl marrys a gorgio..non traveller..he would take her surname making it easy for him and the children to fit in. this still happens today. olso many gypsy men did all kinds of work but i will give you the most used.as to the names here are some. of the older ones i know. lee..smith..boswell..price..miller..mitchell.. wilson.. burton.. butcher..welch..dale..varey..swails..( occupations ) tinker. tinsmith. general dealer. horse dealer. iron or scrap merchent. potterry/earthenware dealers.hawker.peddler.seasonal farm worker.ie fruit pickers. basket and swill makers. and so on. there may be no romany connection in your case. just the same names and areas. but i hope you find what you are looking for ..rob..g
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I have it from the records at the JGLS that the Youngs were part of the Heron Family. A very old Roma family. They appeared to simply change name at some point for no apparent reason. I have been able to verify this as fact - via the census's so as you go further back in time, be aware that a name change to Heron/Herring/Hearn is possible.
Miller in the North is a Romany surname I have come across in my own family, so I think you can say that there is a very good chance your family were Roma. :)
Just as an example (and one that could be quite relevant if we could only get back far enough to uncover the truth!)
Here is an 1851 Census from Thorner Yorks
HO107/2352/308
Miller Young head/Widower/60 no occ listed b.Yorks
Sarah Young dtr/unmarried/32 no occ listed b.Yorks
significantly, they are with three other families, the family of:
Maria Boswell head/Widow/36 GIPSY b.Nfk
and that of
Robert Young head/Mar/27 no occ listed b.Barnsley Yorks and wife Eliza.
And also that of
William Young head/Mar/35 no occ listed b.Lancs with wife Ruth.
(there are other family members to these three on the census).
Miller Young is very evident on the Heron family Pedigree deposited with the JGLS by the Revd George Hall. Only his name was very clearly, Miller Heron.
Miller Heron was reputedly married to Winifred BOSWELL Which explains to me why Miller Young was travelling with a Maria Boswell, who would have been his relative.
The Robert Young named was actually Millers son (known as Perrun Heron on the Pedigree) who married Elizabeth Gray.
And the William Young listed was Millers son William nicknamed Taiso, who married Ruth/Rodi.
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that this is indeed Miller Heron with his family.
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My sister received my g grandfather anf g grandmothers marriage cert. The details are
Married Date 13 Feb 1915
Bothe Fathers were deceased but their names were
George Miller(Occupation not entered)
William Young (Horse Dealer)
Rachel Miller was age 22 and John Thomas Young was age 23.
Dates and place of their birth not given but the years would be 1893 and 1892 respectively.
What census info would have their birth details? Hope someone can shed some more light!!!
Joanne :)
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brilliant Joanne
the marriage certificate woule not give d.o.b or p.o.b but how old they were and where they were residing at time of marriage
this is all very important to help trace them
also it should show the witnesses - who could be relatives another clue to trave them
can you give us these details
what was JOhn Thomas occupation ?
Horse dealer is a common traveller occupation
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I forgot to add their residence
Rachel Miller - Holy Island, Hexham
John T - Skinner's Arms Cottage, Hexham.
Hope this helps.....
Joanne
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Thanks Toni,
I wrote this down last night when i was on the phone so everthing is everywhere.....
John T's (Registered in Northumberland Irish Fusilliers Northumberland at time of marriage and Hawker as well.)
The witness names were:
John Moulding and Jane Reed.
Joanne x
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A few things the death I found earlier
‘JOhn T Young in Hexham in 1931 aged 38 Vol: 10b P: 424 ’
Looks fairly reasonable to be your John
can you post details here of the family in 1911 ?
This is what John belonged to, you would assume the 4th Battalion from the list below TNA (The National Archives) will most probably have records as it was a reserve force I do not know if there are records at the IWM (Imperial Warm Museum) :
In 1908 a reorganisation of reserve forces was carried out under the Territorial and Reserve Forces Act 1907. The militia were transferred to a new "Special Reserve" while the Volunteer Force was reorganised to become the Territorial Force. The "Volunteer Battalion" designation was discarded, and territorial battalions were numbered on after those of the regular army and special reserve. The new organisation was thus:[6]
• 1st Battalion
• 2nd Battalion
• 3rd Battalion (Special Reserve)
• 4th Battalion (T.F.) (HQ Hexham, from bulk of 1st V.B.)
• 5th Battalion (T.F.) (HQ Walker, redesignation of 2nd V.B.)
• 6th (City) Battalion (T.F.) (HQ Newcastle, redesignation of 3rd V.B.)
• 7th Battalion (T.F.) (HQ Alnwick, from part of 1st V.B.)
• 8th (Cyclist) Battalion (formed 1908, redesignated Northern Cyclist Battalion 1910 and transferred to Army Cyclist Corps 1915)
I have possibly found Rachel in 1901 although her age is out slightly
23 Old Broad Quarter Caldegate Carlisle Cumberland
George Miller head 44 hawker b. Carlisle
Mary J wife 39 b. Brampton
Richard 17 son hawk (this has been added to the original census page) b. Carlisle
John W 12 b. do
George H 10 b. do.
Elizabeth 7 b. do.
Rachel 6 b. do.
Isaac 2 b. do.
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Hi Toni
The death record for John does seem correct as he did die very young.
As for details of the family in 1911, I dont have any.
I have very little knowledge of the Armed Forces atc so that explanation was brilliant. It seems like he was in the battalion based in Hexham.
That does seem like Rachel, as you say the age may be a bit out! Thats great that you found that! Is there any record for John T for 1892 approx?
This is very helpful, you are a wealth of knowledge!!! Unlike myself.....
Where do i go from here?
j
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it is possible that John served in the Boer war - the regiment he was with did
i cant see a birth for rachel in HExham :-\ so the Carlisle option in 1901 looks reasonable
however
this looskto be John Thomas birth registration
you coudl order this from the GRO
this will tel you the obvious d.o.b p.o.b and parents names even his mothers maiden name
:)
Births Dec 1891
Young John Thomas Hexham 10b 332
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On second thoughts John couldn’t have served in the Boer war as he would have been only just 10 so he should appear on the 1901 census somewhere
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i've found him in 1901 woo hoo
RG13; 4824; 100; 11.
14 Eilans gate ?
William Young 37 head peddlar b. Hexham
Elizabeth Young 32 wife b. Alnwick
Frank Young 16 son masons labourer b. Hexham
Joseph Young 11 son b. do.
John Thos Young 9 son b. do.
Margt Eliz Young 7 dau b. do.
Elizabeth Young 1 dau b. do.
next door are anotherr Young family will post details in a minute
:)
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next door to JT in 1901 surely related
Frank Young head 33 Peddlar b. hexham
mary wife b. Elsdon
all children b, Hexham
Matilda 13
Mary 12
Kitty 10
William 8
Thomas 6
Margaret J 4
Frank 1 month
Added
In fact they don’t live next door theya re also at no. 14 but are in a separate household
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now we are getting somewhere :)
1891 for William & co.
Elizabeth would have been pregnant with JT at this time
William Young 28 peddlar
Elizabeth 24 wife b. Alnwick
Francis 6 son scholar
William 4 son
Joseph 4 son (he could possibly be 2 ?)
Cuthbert Steward 14 brother in law working in garden
: RG12; 4247; 64; 14
so although they were Hawkers / peddlars they didnt actually travel around like gypsies
Frank & Mary are also there
Frank 24 Peddlar
Mary wife 22
Matilda dau 4
Mary dau 2
Cathering dau 4 months
and another Young family
Foundry lane Hexham
all born Hexham unless stated otherwise
William Young head 67 peddlar
Catherine wife 52
George son 22 Hawker
Matilda dau. 17 do.
Peggy dau. 15 do.
Jane 9 dau. Scholar
John grandson 3
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1881 for William snr. who now appears to be Williams father so your line goes William your grandfather, John Thomas his father William his father and William his father :)
William 48 hawker
Catherine 40 wife
William 18 son
Thos. 16 son
Francis 14 son
George 11 son
Matilda 7 dau
Margt. 4 dau
RG11; 5104; 13; 17
Foundry Lane Hexham
the 1881 census is free to view and from there you can see there are other Young familes on the same page who i would assume are related to yours :)
(i know you shouldnt assume anything but i feel pretty certain they are)
Thomas Young head mar. 33 hawker b. Hexham
margaret 30 b. Hallington Coquet
Isabelle 14 neice b. Stanley Durham
George son 5 b. Hexham
Thomas son 4 b. do.
next household
Francis head mar 26 Hawker b. new york Durham
annie wife b. Scotland
Elizabeth dau scholar b. Hill Top Durham
Francis son b. Durnell Durham
followed by your Williams household :)
here is William (JT father) marriage to Elizabeth Stewart
Marriages Sep 1884 Hexham 10b 373
Coates William
Moorhead Margaret
Stewart Elizabeth
Young William
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in 1871 we have William & Catherine again
this time in the yards at Glovers Place Hexham
William head mar 36 Hawker b. Heddon
Catherine wife 28 b. Slatey
William son 7 b. Blanchford
Thomas son 5 b. Hexham
Francis son 3 b. do
George son 1 b. do
Mary Bennett 15 domestic servant b. Beddington
RG10; 5145; 93; 13
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Them being in houses during the census doesnt mean they never travelled during the summer months to hawk their wares. Indeed, the census was deliberately taken in the early part of the year before travellers went back on the roads. Many many travellers lived in houses during the winter, or stayed in lodgings. Just as a help :)
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that hadn't occurred to me An65 :)
although after William it seems they were in Hexham when the children were born
i looked for a marriage for William & Catherine and also for William on the 1861 census but i can't see anything positive
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but i have found William snr in 1901
:)
William Young 66 head mar. cartman b. heddon on wall
Catherine Young 60 wife hawker b millsheilds
Jane Young 19 dau. b. Hexham
M L Jackson 18 boarder laundry maid b. Stepney London
Jack Young 13 grandson b. winlaton durham
William Young 10 grandson b. Hexham
: RG13; 4824; 85; 11.
look at the Address Skinners arms Gilesgate and I think that Giles Gate must be the address from before too!
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Wow there is so much here....it all sounds like the right folk......i had been searching the Miller side as I couldnt find anything on the census for the Young side.....Toni you have done great work.....
That Rachel Miller record looks right and George her father was a hawker and i found his household in 1861 census
His father
Miller Jacob Age 30 b Cumberland - Penrith Occupation (General Dealer)
Miller Mary Ann Wife 26 B Lancashire
Miller Ann dau 8 b Cumberland - Cockermouth
Miller George (my gg grandfather) 4 born Cumberland - Carlisle
Miller William 2 born cumberland - carlisle
Miller Jacob 5 months old born in Scotland.
There are so many names now im getting confused and im sure you guys are as well....anyone any more knowledge on the miller side?
Even though i have found out more than i ever though i would.....
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I have an entire travelling family called Elliott baptised at Willoughby On The Wolds in Notts in the late 18th early 19th century. I swear they did these things just to catch us out and make sure we were paying attention!
Some of the Millers married into the Cunninghams and Swales families that frequented Kirkby Moorside in Yorkshire, and they likewise persist in having their kids baptised in what seemed to them to be "friendly" parishes. If they knew they would get a good reception from the locals, who can blame them really?
Some Travellers rented homes for an entire year even though they were only going to "Winter" there. It was the price they paid for a stable base to go to when the cold set in. Its all stuff worth bearing in mind on the road to your own folkies.
By the way I have personally found, that you will quite likely find a baptism somewhere of the person you are looking for. Half that for the number of times you will find a marriage. Half that again for the number of times youll find a burial.
This probably sounds strange, but the Roma were very likely to baptise their children. Not so keen on church marriages, (and some were long after their children were born), but preferred their own customs, and hardly anyone seems to have been officially buried!
Good luck or as we would say, Kushti Bok :)
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Joanne i will try to make some sense of it for you although i can only give you the bare bones you will need to add the 'meat'
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Jane Reed witness to John Thomas marriage was Jane Young who was born 1882 the daughter of William & Catherine
she married William reed in 1902 Hexham
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William Young b. circa 1834 Heddon on the Wall Northumberland (Cannot find bp. or 1841-1861 census)
By 1864 he was married to Catherine unknown she was born circa 1840 Slaley
Children of William & Catherine:
William 1864
Thomas 1866
Francis (aka Frank) 1868
George 1870
Matilda 1874
Margaret (aka Peggy) 1877
Jane 1882
I cant see Williams bp. in Heddon on IGI
Catherine was born Slaley which is a part of Hexham but as I don’t know her maiden name I cant find her bp.
I did look for a marriage but there are several options however she is not Catherine Burdas (b. 1840ish Slaley) as she married George Bell.
William & Catherine also have 2 grandchildren with them on various census as yet I have not worked out who they belong to.
Jack Young b. 1888 & William Young b. 1891
William b. 1864 m. Elizabeth Steward / Stewart b. Alnwick in 1884 they had children as follows:
Frank Young 1885
William 1887
Joseph Young 1889/90
John Thos Young 1891. (married Rachel Miller) (JTY died Hexham 1931 aged 38)
Margt Eliz Young 1894.
Elizabeth Young 1900
n.b. Elizabeth had a brother Cuthbert
Francis / Frank b. 1868 m. Mary unknown (b. circa 1870 Elsdon)
Children:
Matilda 1888
Mary 1889
Catherine aka Kitty 1891
William 1893
Thomas 1895
Margaret J 1897
Frank 1901
Jane b. 1882 m. William Reed 1902 Hexham
I lose track of Matilda b. 1874 after 1891 the Matilda Allen on the 1901 census b. 1874 is Matilda Forest / Forester
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i am not too certain about this bit
in 1881 we have at Foundry Lane Hexham
Thomas b. 1853 & his family
Francis b. 1848 & his family
and then your William b. 1833& Catherine and their children
now i have found Thomas & Francis in 1871 they are brothers.
Giles Gate
George Young (he has been crossed out)
Thomas 22
Francis 18
Peter 16
: RG10; 5146; 12; 17;
i was hoping in 1861 they had a brother William and yes they do but i don't know if it is 'your' William his age is out somewhat and his occupation doesnt match :-\
Mickley Durham
George Young 48 head widower hawker b. gateshead
William 20 coal miner b. Hexham
George 18 do.
Ann 16
Thomas 12 scholar
Mary Jane 10 do.
Frances 8 do.
Peter 6
: RG9; 3857; 102; 8;
and in 1851
George Young 40 head mar broomaker b. gateshead
Jane Young 37 wife b. )do.
Isabella Obyusley 17 dau. married b. hexham
Margaret Young 15 b. New York ??? North. (short for Northumberland
John Young 12 tanner b. Durham Blue Quarries
all other children b, Hexham
William Young 10
George Young 8
Ann Young 5
Thomas Young 2
May J Young 4 months daughter
Mary J Amsley under 1 MOnth granddaughter
HO107; 2414;: 531;: 27
you really need to view the image it has something written on the address section i cant make it out
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1891 for Rachels parents
16 Jane Street Caldegate
George Miller 28 general hawker
Mary J 26
Richard 8 scholar
John W 2
George H one month
all born Carlisle except Mary Jane b. Brampton
: RG12; 4290; 33; 12;
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there is a George Miller brother in law age 28 b. Carlisle in 1881 to James Duffy
now a Sarah Miller married James Duffy in Newcastle Q2 1881 so hopefully i am on the right track here
George is a cartman
James was born Ireland
Sarah is 10 years older than George
RG11; 5061; 51; : 28
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Does anyone have a marriage license for Frampton Young . He is son of Elijah heron young and Sarah Boss. Thank you
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Frampton Young b. 1821 England m. Louisa Smith he is son of Elijah and Sarah young
Frampton is father of Joseph Young who married Delilah Boss in Michigan USA 1877
If anyone can tell me something about this Frampton and Louisa. Are they English Romany or Irish. Is this the same Frampton who married Separai. Could Louisa be a second wife.
Thank you for any help to this troubled mind of mine
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Hello (youngjo) William Miller (Billy) horse dealer is my great granfather he had a big family with his wife Anne my grandfather was one of his sons they are burries in Carlisle cemetery Google Carlisle cemetery I think you can retrieve archives of buried my full bread & generation of millers is buried in that cemetery the Miller family is so big that there is so many Matthews,Williams, & so on we give each other nick names lol like curly mat tall Willam etc Billy Miller is burried next my grandfather & all his deceased family surrounding him if you can't find your family routes there then there must be something rong with the internet lol good luck