RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Derbyshire => Topic started by: dobfarm on Wednesday 22 December 10 06:13 GMT (UK)
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Hi All
http://www.britainexpress.com/attractions.htm?attraction=4262
Does any one have Radulfus (Ralph) Cutt (Cutts) son of Ricardus Cutt about B 1608 Throapham Hall, Oldcotes Rd, Laughton-en-le-Morthen in their tree married Elizabeth Amrie 7th June 1630 North Wingfield. Maybe connection with later Harthill Cutts/Cutt
Ralph Cutt -possible brother of John Cutt Christening: 30 SEP 1594 maybe sub chapel or abode Dinnington Sheffield, Yorkshire, England http://www.journeymouse.net/CMS/docs/Cutts.pdf
Source of nile:- Leaf hints anc*stry . thingy. uk
Dave
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Hi Dave,
There are various Cutts mentioned here although I haven't had time to see if Radolfus/Ralph is one of them:
http://www.rotherhamweb.co.uk/genealogy/index.htm
Hope it helps
Jill
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Thanks Jill,
I'll have a look at the web link.
Merry Xmas Dave
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I am very interested in The ancestry of Ralph Cutt. I am a direct decendant of Ralph and Elizabeth Amrie and am amazed you have found his Father. Can I ask how you actually found a connection between the Ralph in North Wingfield and the Ralph in Throapham Hall. Although over the years I have found a few Ralph possibilities I have never seen evidence of the one in Throapham.
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Hi Jim
How I found the info on Ralf on post one is it came up on anc*stry.co.uk.
If you have a free family tree with them but don't subscribe to Anc*stry you get hints of other people tree entries in basic info form of date and location, other than that nothing else and hence I posted on here hoping for more info.
Having said this? you talk of possibilities of Ralf's birth/bapt! but that far back with limited info will also be your best guess unless a Will turns up and my experience says Wills never give ages (Unless infant) only death locations.
Since I wrote this thread I have had new Info that indicated Ralf is not my line so therefore of no importance to me now.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=348222.new;topicseen
Hope you can find your Ralf's dad one day
Happy New Year
Regards Dave
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I'll leave the thread open for comments on Ralf for Jim and other researchers of Ralf of North Wingfield
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Thanks for that Dave, I will though check next week on Throapham idea, it will at least have a germ of a clue about it.
Can I be of help with your Cutts line at all? I have been collecting info for over 30 years and have an enormous amount of Cutts lines.
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Hi Jim
Thank you for your offer with my Cutts line! What is your line or are there any of mine? :)
I'm taking a new approach on my Cutts of Scarcliffe and Wales Yorkshire as there is evidence downstream to support Yorkshire link to his parents of George Cutts b 1821 Scarcliffe son of George cutts and Fanny fox. I don't go along with the Charlesworth Grand parent and North Wingfield. only link with that area to these Cutts is Elizabeth Trickett (wife of George Curtts b 1821 Scarcliffe died 1886 in Whitwell near Harthill/Wales village) was born in Wingerfield and all the rest support Rotherham/Worksop area.
As for Ralf? as I have said there is so little info on these BMD entries and any assumption make from them will be a best guess without support of other information in support any theory based on parish entries alone. Burial MI's are rare for those years but a few do exist! deeds, lease, poorlaw, land tax, Tax rolls, Gentry letters and the like may support.
As for the entry of Ralf of Throapham ?, checking the original parish register at one of Sheffield/Rotherham /Worksop libraries? archives should answer but the parish PR's seem vague by the IGI which maybe BT's
Journey mouse seems to know alot about these Cutts and is a supporter of the Charlesworth North Wingfield theory. cross refer church PR's with BT's would be a good idea.! :o
http://www.journeymouse.net/CMS/content/view/38/60/
Keep digging things do turn up.
Dave :( aways looking
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PS
Someone somewhere :-\ knows something about Richard father of Ralph
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/CUTTS/2010-12/1291760930
I found this link on Richard father of Ralph but seems Anc*stry.co.uk based sauce again.?????
Dave
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Are you aware that Georges Baptism is actually in the Bolsover Registers?
If not I can send the details.
Over the years a number of us have worked hard on the Georges so we have a lot of detail.
With regards to Journeymouse, a lot of what is posted on that site was from our Cutts one name study (freely shared), unfortunately it has been mixed with errors and then published and although I would always help people rectify mistakes, in this case Journeymouse has published my branch of the tree including my children without permission and as such I intend to leave it incorrect.
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Hi all
I am a direct descendant of Radulfus (Ralph) CUTTS and Elizabeth AMRIE of North Wingfield marriage 1630, but have not been able to get back any further than him. Does anyone have his birth details? The anc£stry.com family trees all link him to a Ricardus Cutts, and his father being Abraham Cutts, who married Elizabeth Beaumont (according to the family trees).
I am trying to find the evidence of these fathers, but am stuck at Radulfus. Any help greatly appreciated :)
Many thanks and wishing all a very happy new year.
Hannah
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Are you aware that Georges Baptism is actually in the Bolsover Registers?
If not I can send the details.
Over the years a number of us have worked hard on the Georges so we have a lot of detail.
With regards to Journeymouse, a lot of what is posted on that site was from our Cutts one name study (freely shared), unfortunately it has been mixed with errors and then published and although I would always help people rectify mistakes, in this case Journeymouse has published my branch of the tree including my children without permission and as such I intend to leave it incorrect.
Hi Jim,
Yes I agree George Cutts was born 1821 Bolsover it was his dad George who married Frances Fox b 1791 of heath! then by 1810 was residence and married Scarcliffe 1810
The fact that my great granny Mary Cutts (Cutt) born 1846 in Sutton cum Duckmanton died Duckmanton 1902 Mary Cutts of Bolsover married Samuel Tidmarsh b 1844 Temple balsall Warwick in 1867 Wales parish of Waleswood Yorkshire siblings Herbert Tidmarsh bapt Jan 1868 Wales parish Thomas Tidmarsh bapt DEC 1868 Scarcliffe parish Samuel Tidmarsh jr bapt 1876. Sutton cum Duckmanton (on 1871c living Scarcilffe as Samuel TiTmarsh b 1844) Samuel Tidmarsh b 1844 moved to Suttlewood then Clowne 1911 after Mary died 1902. and died in Clowne 1920 at 43 West lea Clowne.
Samuel Tidmarsh b 1844 Temple Balsall Wawickshire -his sister Ann Tidmarsh b 1828 Tanworth in arden married john Davison (mis-scribed Davidson) in Warwickshire in 1848 and by 1851c Thomas Tidmarsh b 1831 Warwicksire (Samuel sr brother) was living with Ann Davison and husband John Davison as brother in law age 20 in Hillstown Bolsover
Then Samuel followed (post 1861) them to Derbyshire/Yorkshire area and married Mary Cutts in Wales village 1867
Family descendants link with Wales, Harthill and Whitwell are strong post 1920 my uncles worked at Whitwell mine most of their lives.
George Cutts b 1821 died 1886 Whitwell
Samuel was head Cattleman at manor hall farm on the Arkwright estate at Arkwright hall Scardale Sutton lane Duckmanton back road to Scarcliffe parish
Dave
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Hi all
I am a direct descendant of Radulfus (Ralph) CUTTS and Elizabeth AMRIE of North Wingfield marriage 1630, but have not been able to get back any further than him. Does anyone have his birth details? The anc£stry.com family trees all link him to a Ricardus Cutts, and his father being Abraham Cutts, who married Elizabeth Beaumont (according to the family trees).
I am trying to find the evidence of these fathers, but am stuck at Radulfus. Any help greatly appreciated :)
Many thanks and wishing all a very happy new year.
Hannah
Hi Hannah
Sorry as I'm same as you! with anc*stry stuff knowing little? about it or source as I only use ancestry library edition search which as no familly tree access but I have my free tree on anc*stry but can't see other trees as not subscribed to them but get limited hints. My research is direct from archives
Regards Dave
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Hi Jim,
Apologies for the problems with the CUTTS details on my web-page. If you would let me know where you want me to do the snip / removal of details from - i.e. how far back on the tree - I will be happy to remove the names.
I haven't looked at my CUTTS data since February so it's due a trawl through to check what new information has been found and what corrections I need to make otherwise. My last update was the addition of Ralph and Elizabeth (nee AMRIE) to the top of the tree as I had been informed that they had been connected to Robert (whom married Grace then Ann) through a son's will that named Robert as his brother. (Did that all make sense?) This is all on the page linked to by Dave / dobfarm.
If I'm honest, the only data I can be sure of is up to George and Frances (nee FOX). The census information makes the families easier to put together and the connections before that are shaky. If you've sent any corrections through specifically to me and I've ignored them, I apologise and ask that they be sent through again as I don't appear to have many communications regarding the CUTTS family.
Regards,
Jo
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Hi All
As my lot? its still toss of a coin as George Cutts parents who married Frances Fox and need more info to prove the right parents of him.
Dave
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PS
Someone somewhere :-\ knows something about Richard father of Ralph
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/CUTTS/2010-12/1291760930
I found this link on Richard father of Ralph but seems Anc*stry.co.uk based sauce again.?????
Dave
Oh, that link above is by me, HCutts! Still trying to verify and find Radulfus's parents. Does seem to be tenuous links on ancestry.com that are not sourced.
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PS
Someone somewhere :-\ knows something about Richard father of Ralph
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/CUTTS/2010-12/1291760930
I found this link on Richard father of Ralph but seems Anc*stry.co.uk based sauce again.?????
Dave
Oh, that link above is by me, HCutts! Still trying to verify and find Radulfus's parents. Does seem to be tenuous links on ancestry.com that are not sourced.
Hi Hannah,
I think its the dog chasing its own tail as Anc*stry.com info and Who the heck Abraham is god knows ! I would take with a sake full of salt not a pinch. Some body puts something as it gets chase around the block a few times with bits added and comes back gossip in many trees with a big carrot of so many tree to link with? so may it must be true attitude . Also it more intersting being family linked to King kong year dot than just Ralph Cutts 1630 marriage of North wingfield to talk about with a few pints at the pub. :D
Dave :)
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George Cutts and Frances Fox marriage 1810 parish register
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=503633.msg3604199
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George Cutts and Elizabeth Trickett marriage 1843 parish register
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,503640.msg3604269.html#msg3604269
Wittness signature Thomas Cutt
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=503654.msg3604381
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Dave / dobfarm,
The circumstantial evidence I used for linking George who married Frances FOX with the christening of George and Rebecca (nee CHARLESWORTH)'s son George is the christening of George and Frances' daughter, Rebecca, in 1824. It's on the CUTTS one name web-site and someone else sent me a transcriptions of the parish records (I haven't got the file to hand but will dig it out if necessary). This also matches up with a Rebecca CUTTS' wedding to a John SPRAY in 1844. Her father is given as George CUTTS and both events were in Bolsover. Have you come across these?
Like I said, circumstantial. I probably ought to invest more time and effort investigating primary sources.
Jo
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Hi Jo,
Pre 1837 BMDs is always hard to establish a datum point to work from or a particular family and lot more study is needed by all concerned. I'll do a bit of study on these Rebbeca's
That George Cutts x Fanny Mather marriage still puzzles me ?? 26 DEC 1809 North Wingfield, Derby
Happy New Year :D
Dave :)
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Hi Dave,
There are North Wingfield christenings on the IGI that may match up with the 1809 CUTT-MATHER marriage. If you go through Hugh Wallis's site (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hughwallis/) you should be able to get to them relatively easily. They are all children of "George and Fanny CUTTS" but not necessarily all the same couple:
Archer CUTTS, chr. 26 FEB 1810
Mary CUTTS, b. 21 OCT 1811, chr. 04 MAR 1816
Ann CUTSS, b. 05 SEP 1813, chr. 04 MAR 1816
Eliza CUTTS, b. 19 SEP 1815, chr. 04 MAR 1816
Sarah CUTTS, chr. 16 MAR 1817
George CUTTS, chr. 24 OCT 1819
Elizabeth CUTTS, chr. 24 JUN 1821
Aaron CUTTS, b. 23 AUG 1824, chr. 19 SEP 1824
Sophia CUTTS, b. 03 DEC 1827, chr. 17 FEB 1828
James CUTTS, chr. 04 APR 1830
Going back is more problematic :)
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Hi Jo,
Sorry! I've not answered so quickly but suffering a broken leg at the moment and have to rest it. Morel -Don't do ancestry cemetery look ups in icy weather ;D for people in Aussy! with poorly elderly mother who want to see their brother's grave stone. in Bradford.
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George Cutts b 1819 North Wingfield is the bit that's natters me and George and Fanny parents.
How/WHY?- 1851c Bolsover -Widow Fanny with her children, grandchildren and Elizabeth daughter in law.
Fanny though short for Frances Fox!! all other events BMD's/census show Fanny?
If we consided North Wingfield link with Rebbecca and George b 1784 there is a North Wingfield link to Bolsover. This Bolsover theory of Charlesworth (George Cutt 1821 parents and grandparents )and Fox is based on them not moving from Bolsover after 1810 Fox marriage. If we accept George b 1784 Why not George b 1819 from North Wingfield
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Bit of Slothing here for you and Jim & Hannah!
Mary Limb (Lamb) as witness on George and Frances Fox marriage 1810 Scarcliffe Bolsover.
I found this link
Mary Cutts b 1793 to Limb Family
http://stevensontribe.com/phpGedView/individual.php?pid=I5155&ged=stevensonfamily.ged
Link below George Cutts /Fox marriage 1810 Scarcliffe
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=503633.msg3604199
Dave
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Bastardy Paper
B27 Fanny CUTTS, male 19 May. George PEARSON Bolsover 1831
3rd location Down B27 Scarcliffe
http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~spire/Yesterday/BastardyS.htm
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Hi Dave,
Based on what information I have (which included the the mention of the records on Yesterday's Journey you've found), I would say there are definitely two distinct families. As you say, there's a George and Fanny who marry in North Wingfield and have children there and then there's George and Fanny who marry in Scarcliffe and have children in Bolsover. The difficulty is pushing back the Georges.
For what it's worth, the 1841 census with Fanny-in-Bolsover don't match up against the North Wingfield family but against the Bolsover family. William is the son born to Goerge PEARSON, 4 years after George CUTTS dies. I assumed no swap around on the marriages because Fanny CUTTS went back to Scarcliffe to have her child, or at least his place of birth / christening indicates that she did.
Coincidentally, there's a Robert CUTTS on the 1841 census with her who doesn't seem to fit in at all with the known christening records - at least as her own child. There is one who would be about the right age and location who would be George-who-married-Rebecca's great nephew but ... ?
Jo
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Hi Jo,
A hard nut to crack! I'll do some more checking at Matlock/ Rotherham /Sheffield archives this spring/summer, looking at poorlaw records. They were too poor for gravestones? but one never knows and may find just that scrap of info that proves something.
For now 'keep well'
regards Dave
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Hi Jo,
I have had a long re-look of my records, also the known info George Cutts / Rebbecca Charlesworth son George Cutts born Bolsover 1785 who others say married Rachel Ball Ault Hucknall 1804 Which Fits William Limb Tree and LDS submissions
With George Cutts of Harthill b1783 and no marriage or death as an infant for him also George Cutts jr born 1821 Husband of Elizabeth Tricket married 1843 was the Bolsover murder case George the poacher and other poaching offences all round Whitwell, Harthill, Clowne, being let off his 2 year sentence for the Bolsover murder too work down a coal mine for the magistrate of the case and his death certificates Whitwell 1886 says occupation was a miner. Then His Daughter Mary Cutts born 1846 Duckmanton Bolsover and married in Wales Yorkshire near Harthill 1867 to Samuel Tidmarsh who moved to Scarcliffe the year after their marriage 1868.
I am now convinced George Cutts who married France Fox 1810 Scarcliffe was George Cutts of Harthill 1783 father George which has circumstantial evidence to support
The Pearson info is post 1828 Fanny Fox Husband George Cutts
All I can find for support of George Cutts b 1785 Son of George and Rebecca being 1810 Scracliffe George Cutts husband of Fanny Fox b 1791 Heath is BMDs as them living Bolsover/Scarcliffe.
Samuel Tidmarsh Worked at Sutton Lane Scardales Arkwright hall farm as Head cattleman near Heath, Scarcliffe and Duckmanton. My mother was born 1908 at Carvale Duckmanton Schooled at Shuttwood, Lived in Clowne died in Huddersfield and buried in Clowne 1995 Her Auty's and Uncle's lived around Wales, Scarcliffe, Bolsover, Harthill Whitwell, Duckmanton and Huddersfield Yorkshire (Holmfirth)
Dave
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Hello All
I have been doing a little delving and it would seems that YA Society Leeds has the Tax/Cover deeds Rolls and Wills for Yorkshire/Derbyshire/Notts that seem to hold a lot of the source info of pre 1600 info. These old Scrolls are Black with original dust over the centuries and are only brought out on one off look ups. There is some info in book form also books on legal matters - Old Doc's that go back pre 1066 also Queen Liz the first original stuff. This must be the source of the anc*stry website info I would think. Most written in old English or Latin. Then York Archives has a load.
Hope it helps
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resurrecting this one from the dead , I've recently got back to the Cutts after banging my head on other parts of my tree and started a new Bolsover Cutt tree to try and untangle everyone starting with the 1911 census and working back . George and Fanny are exercising my brain a bit because from what you're saying Bolsover Fanny isn't Frances Fox, but I'm having trouble with her being Fanny Mather as well (which is what people on the site that shall not be named seem to think) I've disentangled the 1841 census where George Junior is in the nick for the poaching incident and Mary's children George and Emma are listed as belonging to Fanny (can't be hers, she would have been 52 when the elder was born) but not knowing for sure which Fanny/Frances married George (D.1841) is messing stuff up somewhat. has anything come up since the last post that can shed a light on these annoying relatives of mine?
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Hello Jamila169 :)
Welcome to Rootchat website,
Its many years back this thread was posted , I had/have mind sett formulations of my own at the time (some have changed over the years), so not to contaminate your thinking, I've asked another member Claire to look at this thread with a fresh start, with fresh eyes, with you. (Claire is very good at ancestry with many years in research behind her along with other members)
Please help the new member,
Dobby
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Hi Jamila (and dobfarm)
Welcome to RootsChat :)
Will look into this for yourself and dobfarm. Not sure I can help but will try.
Have to work will be back later.
Claire
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Thanks so much Claire, these people have been the bane of my life for years now, my Grandma told me everyone she knew about which went back to her great grandparents, but the pre 1840s Georges are a pain
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Hi
This is who I think Frances/Fanny Cutts from the 1851 census is:
When George Cutts married Fanny Mather 26 Dec 1809, she was from the parish of SHIRLAND where there is this baptism
Fanny Mather bapt. 9 April 1787 SHIRLAND, DERBY: Parents: George Mather & Ann
A transcript of the wedding can be found here on this link, the baptism is on FS and F M P.
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5817ca68e93790eb7f94c322?search_id=598cd779791e3b10009345a6&ucf=false
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In the 1851 census we have Fanny Cutts born c1791/2 HEATH, Derbyshire.
At Heath, All Saints 1791 there is this baptism
FANNY FOX bapt. 19 May 1791 dau of Matthew & Elizabeth
There are no Mather baptisms 5 years either side of 1791 in the Heath PR's, so I would say that the lady in the 1851 census is Fanny/Frances Cutts nee FOX and married George Cutts in Scarcliffe 1810.
claire
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1841 census in North Wingfield
George CUTTS 60 farmer
FANNEY " 54
George 20
Bessey 15
Sophire 13
James 11
Fanney 11
Sarah 2 All born in County
BURIAL IN NORTH WINGFIELD
Fanny Cutts age 63 ( birthyear 1786) 22 Sep 1849
Think possibly this is the George Cutts/Fanny Mather family.
POSSIBLE BURIAL
George Cutts 22 Aug 1849 age 72 (birthyear c1777)
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Can see two possible baptisms for George Cutts in North Wingfield if the burial above is the correct man
George CUT bapt. 5 Jan 1777 son of Aaron & Mary Cut.
George CUTT bapt. 11 Dec 1778 son of George & Mary
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That's what was nagging me about Mather, it wasn't solid enough because of the other possible one, I'll try chasing up the Fox connection and see if she's the one. I've found no connection yet with the N Wingfield ones , but it's not beyond the realms of possibility that they're branches of the same family
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I think there were some shenanigans with my lot, Fanny and George's daughter Mary has a baptism date of 1815, but her given age on all of the censuses she appears on makes her younger than that, I need to look at the actual register to see if theres a mistranscription. I've got someone I think is her in the examinations record pregnant at age 16 in 1833 being examined to return to Bolsover from Blidworth (Parents settled in Scarcliffe) . She was removed to Scarcliffe in the same year pregnant. The Fanny Cutts that Dobby mentioned earlier in the thread as being in the bastardy records in 1831 is also in Scarcliffe. But I've not seen any mention of Fanny settling in either Bolsover or Scarcliffe, but then again if she worked and stayed with family she might not appear in the records
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=776813.msg6305444#msg6305444
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update
George Cutts X Rebecca Charlesworth ~~~thought by IGI Rebecca Charlesworth daughter of Thomas and Alice Charlesworth bapt 11th of August 1755 Bolsover to be Rebecca Charlesworth who married George Cutts 1774 Bolsover BT's (Church registers Bolsover lost in a fire 1960)
Thanks to member BumbleB the Will/ probate of Thomas Charlesworth of Bolsover left heirs wife Alice and daughter Rebecca Flint nee Charlesworth who married William Flint of Staveley by licence 1777 in Bolsover
Thus Rebecca Charlesworth daughter of Thomas and Alice Charlesworth bapt 11th of August 1755 Bolsover was not the Rebecca Charlesworth who married George Cutts 1774 Bolsover
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Hi, this is my very first post, so please be gentle with me ! I have only been researching my tree for a few weeks.
I have Radulfus Cutt in my tree and is married to Elizabeth Amrie. He is son of Ricardus Cutt (b.1590) and Esabella Kaye, (b.1590) and Ricardus is the son of Abraham Cutts (b. 1568).