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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: Keith Sherwood on Wednesday 05 January 11 14:19 GMT (UK)
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Hi again, Everyone,
Here's an interesting group photo (that's been in the wars a bit!) that was given to me by my sister-in-law over the Christmas period. Her great-grandfather Edward GATFIELD, b.1868 stands tall, second left in the middle row, white shirt under waistcoat, proudly gazing into camera...
What she and I would like to know is where the photo might have been taken - he lived in Poplar in London - what the type construction work might have been, and when the photo could have been taken.
There are one or two clues, a sign advertising a music school, name unclear, and the scene is set at some kind of street junction, I think.
Any ideas, anyone, and if any of those clever people on here could possibly improve its appearance/defects, we'd both be most appreciative!
Very best wishes, keith
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It may have been construction or excavation for the Tube, or London Underground.
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Super photo - I like a bit of detective work! 1901 census: Edward Gatfield, bn London City was a bricklayer, living 519 Old Ford Rd, St Mary Stratford Bow plus wife and 4 chn. Not a lot of help there - he looks like a forman in the pic - so is probably quite a bit later.
Kath
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Hi Keith
First, AMAZING photo! However, my software is showing it's only 72dpi. Can you possibly rescan at 300 dpi and repost. Alternatively if you have problems resizing, pm me and I'll get you to email the unsized version and I can post it for you.
In the meantime, I've had only a quick tinker with it to enhance details so perhaps the clothing experts could give us a date. There is a chap at the back wearing a straw boater which was worn during summer and popular around the turn of the century. The music school looks like And??? School of Music, so perhaps Anderson?
Cheers
Caroline
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Kath,
Yes, that's him, and in the 1911 I was confused about his occupation on the original Census form when I misread it for a few seconds as "Nanny". It was of course meant to be Navvy...(at 15, Lamprell St. Poplar)
And if that was the case still then, perhaps the man in the bowler (?) hat distinguishes him as the foreman. Though I'm not at all sure.
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Caroline,
Posts crossed in the ether, will PM you now and send the fullsize photo to your e-mail address when I get it..
keith
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The one odd thing, to my mind, is that there are no spades or picks in evidence.
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1] Laying tramlines?
2] AndREWS School of Music?
A
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Hi All
Here's a resized version with less compression.
Caroline
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I know nothing, but I think it's a great pic.
Andrews rather than Anderson since I don't think the number of letters would fit.
What is the big turnscrew at the front? some sort of drill?
Was it common for the men to tie around their trouser legs just below the knee? to stop something running up them?
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I always thought trousers were tied below the knee to stop rats running up! So maybe it was sewer construction going on.
Great photo.
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The general style looks 1890's possibly into the early 1900's.
The hole looks too deep for tramlines so maybe sewers.
This may be the construction crew hence no spades,picks etc.
jim
Edit:just seen the post from Salvia,the ties were to keep the trouser bottoms out of the dirt & also to stop them fraying.
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There was an Adolphus Andrews, teacher of music at 2 Parkstone Road, Peckham from 1891 to at least 1908.
Caroline
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There are two bowler hats amongst the workers pictured. While it was the norm for the foreman to wear a bowler, it was not exclusive unless there are two work gangs pictured.
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Hi again, Everyone,
And thanks for the input and ideas. Had a look through my CD London Directory for1902, but could find no obvious fit for that music school, to enable the location of the picture to be pinpointed. If only there was someone who could tell how old an individual in a photo was exactly - Edward GATFIELD was born in 1868, what age does he appear to be here?
Have communicated with my sister-in-law over the weekend, and she says her grandmother, one of Edward's many daughters, lived on in the house at 15, Lamprell Street until she married. I also think she said that this particular lady lived to the ripe old age of 92...
Please keep the suggestions coming in,
Regards, keith
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Not much that's dateable in the clothing, but one of the gents in the background is wearing what looks like a straw boater...I think these came out in the late 1890s and remained popular for some time.
Not much help, I know :)
Cheers,
China
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What a great photo. Pity part of the dance studio name is missing as this could identify whereabout in London it was taken.
The two men wearing bowler hats: one could be the works manager and the other - without a coat on - being the foreman.
As the picture is at what looks like a large road junction I wonder if perhaps it's the making of a subway (for people to cross from one side to the other or maybe even toilets as there looks like metal fence railings to the right of the men.
The big bits of metal with a screw device looks like its something to hold the two pieces are a set distance apart and maybe keep them there which could suggest it would be part of an underground roof with the road being eventually laid on top of it?
Jean
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Yes Jean, My best guess is that it is construction for the London Underground. It looks like a ramp going down at an angle, and it looks like tiles or paving slabs under the feet of the construction team.
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Underground excavations were usually 'cut and cover', which was a different technique. My guess would be sewer construction, which would explain the two foremen, the the two different styles of dress. My grandfather was a master bricklayer, and I have a picture of him in similar attire (jacket, waistcoat and bowler hat), whilst his men wore jacket, waistcoat and flat cap. The men in the shirt sleeves were probably labourers who were employed to dig the holes and maintain the supports.
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I blew the picture up, and noticed the two pipes sticking up, with a 90 degree bend at the top. I'm wondering if they were laying gas pipes ?
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I do not think they are gas pipes. I think they are steel bars.
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Fascinating photograph.
Have a look here
http://www.ltmcollection.org/resources/index.html?IXglossary=Public+transport+in+Victorian+London%3A+Part+One%3A+Overground
If you scroll down this page there is picture of tramlines being laid. Looks much more as if they are working on the surface. However there are other similarities in dress etc.
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Fascinating photograph.
Have a look here
http://www.ltmcollection.org/resources/index.html?IXglossary=Public+transport+in+Victorian+London%3A+Part+One%3A+Overground
If you scroll down this page there is picture of tramlines being laid. Looks much more as if they are working on the surface. However there are other similarities in dress etc.
I don't think it is tramlines being laid as the hole is much too deep. There also appears to be bricks to the right of the workmen.
A very large number of cross-sewers were installed in London in the 1890s and early 1900s and I would guess that it is one of these that is being laid. Laying of gas pipes is also possible (I can't see any street lighting in the photo and perhaps gas pipes are being installed to provide lighting).
Nigel
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Try this one
http://www.swopnet.com/engr/londonsewers/londontext1.html - again scroll down. I'd say sewer. But where?
Kath
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Looking behind the man who is standing at the back I think I can see a bicycle wheel. My husband has just looked at it and says the group of people in the background look more Edwardian to him. He also pointed out that he couldn't see any gaslamps.
Not at all sure if any of this helps but just ideas
Jo
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He also pointed out that he couldn't see any gaslamps.
That's what the pipes were for, that they were installing ! :)
P.S. Only joking - on reflection, I think the photo is too late for gas lamps.
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The pose of the young man at the back seems consistent with sitting on a bicycle while watching tyhe proceedings; however if it is a bike then what is the linear object through the wheel at an angle of approx 50 degrees to the ground?
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Having looked at the link Kathy posted there are some pictures of construction of the underground that appear to have the large wooden block beams with some of them two together with a gap between them. Most of them are from the late 1860's but that's not to say that in the Edwardian era they weren't still using them.
The long pipes could be conduits for either gas lighting or maybe wires for electricity.
So I would think maybe it is the entrance to a tube station although there weren't any of them with any buildings like in the background of Keith's photo.
Perhaps London Transport Collection may be able to help?
Jean
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Assuming we are in London, could we be looking at the Kingsway tunnel/underpass ?
A
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Could it be Mare Street in Hackney? Carl Andre & Co had a music school there circa 1899-1915, at number 109.
Could be Andre's School of Music ?
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Gosh Shaun, it would certainly fit the sign better than the lengthier suggestions.
Looking at a Google image of Mare St, there's a railway track through the intersection with Amherst Rd. It's elevated now, but I bet it wasn't built like that originally.
Cheers,
China
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He also pointed out that he couldn't see any gaslamps.
That's what the pipes were for, that they were installing ! :)
P.S. Only joking - on reflection, I think the photo is too late for gas lamps.
By Queen Victoria's death in January 1901, electric lighting was still in its infancy. Gas lighting was common and still being installed in the cities and larger towns.
Nigel
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Back then, number 109 Mare Street was on a block between Essex Street and Westgate Street.
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Looking at today's map, it certainly could be around Mare Street...
and it would be a convenient place to be working if you lived in Poplar
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Until 1910 the PO Directories list Andre, Carl & Co as "musical instrument makers". In 1912 they are listed as "Teachers of music and singing".
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I don't think it is of Mare Street as Mare Street is quite wide and had horse trams operating along its length from Hackney to Aldgate as early as the 1870s. I have a photo of a garden-seat horse tram in Mare Street.
Photos of Mare Street can be seen in this link:
http://www.photohistory-sussex.co.uk/SimkinMuriel.htm
Nigel
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Would someone take a look at the corner of Westgate Street/The Triangle where it meets Mare Street. I suspect the building behind the men is Westgate Street, although some of it has now been altered.
Mo
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Hope the link works. It's about here I think http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=51.538008,-0.057378&num=1&sll=51.536848,-0.058184&sspn=0.006295,0.006295&hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=51.5375,-0.056326&spn=0,0.026071&z=16&layer=c&cbll=51.537971,-0.05725&panoid=gVQGiqAhOsB_qtBjvFLVLg&cbp=12,22.93,,0,0.82
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Good link, Shaun, think Mo means if you click on the lh arrow a bit and move round to the left.
Just been looking at it myself, could be.....so difficult to say, now that the windows are altered.
This is very spooky for me, as looking on Streetmap, this is part of a regular route of mine across London
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My paternal grandfather worked as a platelayer on the railway network, he tied his trousers up to stop pickaxed stones from flying up and ripping the legs asunder...the same with a photograph I have in my collection of a quarryman from the Ipswich area..rats would have been long gone after hearing any noises from industrial/ mechanisation etc....
Just a thought though... ;)
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Backing up south down Mare Street for about 50 -100 metres, there are some 19th century buildings to the left. TAke a look at the windows and compare with those on the extreme left of Keith's photo
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=51.538008,-0.057378&num=1&sll=51.536848,-0.058184&sspn=0.006295,0.006295&hl=en&ie=UTF8&layer=c&cbll=51.536852,-0.056992&panoid=cDG-qYyrLdsB24sXM8LjlQ&cbp=12,337.93,,0,0.82&ll=51.536967,-0.05697&spn=0.008782,0.026157&z=16
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The original photo looks to me as if it's taken from The Triangle / Mare Street looking along Westgate Street. Mare Street is on the left and right of the photo.
Well spotted Mo.
Nigel
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The beams are resting on the top of the sides of the trench, therefore they are not struts to stop the trench collapsing but probably to hold something up, ie; the screw and handle contraption would give adjustment to whatever was hung from the bottom of the threaded bolt. Maybe a pipe but could be beams etc, . The following picture is of interest but maybe not what we have in the photo. ; http://www.sewerhistory.org/grfx/construct/general/images/1894_bme05.jpg
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Wow! Some very clever and thorough detective work has been going on since I last had a look at the thread. The Mare Street theory looks very plausible to me.
I wonder whether all the workmen's tools were hidden away down below, in whatever shaft had been driven into the ground, not a pick or shovel to be seen. And I've wondered why the photo looks so posed, whoever took it must have had quite a bit a trouble getting everyone above ground and steady for the camera shutter to click and freeze this moment in time for ever...
keith
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The following link on the Mare Street Conservation Area provides an interesting history of Mare Street / The Wesgate Street Triangle etc:
http://www.hackney.gov.uk/Assets/Documents/ep-mare-street-town-hall-square-appraisal-part-1.pdf
Nigel
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I'm a little late with my answer too, but just wanted to say well done, it does look like the correct building has been identified, you can even see the change in the roof.
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Here's a better view of the building in Westgate triangle on Google street view. The corner section has been rebuilt but the stretch leading to the railway bridge looks very similar. And in Keith's picture I think the railway bridge is just visible behind the tree.
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=51.538008,-0.057378&num=1&sll=51.536848,-0.058184&sspn=0.006295,0.006295&hl=en&ie=UTF8&layer=c&cbll=51.537978,-0.057071&panoid=WZVF-toEeOMwht0MkBtFow&cbp=12,270,,0,5&ll=51.537968,-0.056951&spn=0.001104,0.00327&z=19
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Can I just say what wonderful detective work! Shaun's link above clinches it. It even looks like that tree on the right on google maps link might even be the same as the one in Keith's photo. ;D
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Just to save people flicking back to the photo
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the first chap standing on a beam bottom right.there is something on the beam do's it say something gass??
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the first chap standing on a beam bottom right.there is something on the beam do's it say something gass??
Funny you should say that. I saw something there too, but I also saw some radiating lines on the print just above the letters, and I thought it could have come from another photo stacked on top.
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A great picture of the same spot in April 1971
http://www.flickr.com/photos/50780708@N02/5153903694/
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Just noticed something else - above the hoarding for the music company, there is another hoarding above and slightly to the right. This has the word SIMONS diagonally across it :)
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This has the word SIMONS diagonally across it
Solomon Simons was a cabinet maker at 113 Mare Street in the 1912-15 PO Directories
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It appears that Solomon Simons moved his business to 113 Mare Street sometime between 1905 and 1910.
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That seems to clinch the location - Mare St sometime between 1905-1915. Well done all the sleuths.
Of course that still leaves the question of what was the hole for?
Jean
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Mare Street would fit nicely on the street plaque on the wall immediately to the RHS of the foreman.
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Mare Street would fit nicely on the street plaque on the wall immediately to the RHS of the foreman
Yes the street nameplate is in more or the less the same place in the 1971 photo too, and in Google Streetview
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Definitely, a pity the original small street name plaque had not survived, looking around quite a few seem to have done I have noticed when in London, specially in the Clerkenwell area.
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anything similar in this picture. c.1900 workman culverting hackney brook under Mare Street??
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My guess is that this new photo was taken further down the road, on what seems to be the straight part at the rear of the gangs photographed.
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The one odd thing, to my mind, is that there are no spades or picks in evidence.
I think the same whenever I pass roadworks - maybe somethings don't change :) :)
Wonderful photo and great work to identify the location
Pat
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Simply incredible...
Well done everyone who's helped on this thread! Perhaps someone will come up next with a definitive answer to the question: "Why The Hole?"
keith
p.s. "Isn't there a song from the Sixties or so about digging a hole...?
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Perhaps it is part of the works undertaken between 1899 - 1906 referrred to in paragraph 3.2.20 of the attachment to my reply #44 (Nikw's reply #59 also relates).
Nigel
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[quote "Isn't there a song from the Sixties or so about digging a hole...?
I think it was Bernard Cribbens who sang Hole in the Ground :-\
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Or Lee Dorsey, Working in a Coal Mine :)
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I think it was Bernard Cribbens who sang Hole in the Ground :-\
Yes. ::)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGk4AKOwJbc
Nigel
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anything similar in this picture. c.1900 workman culverting hackney brook under Mare Street??
According to Wikipedia, the culverting of Hackney Brook took place in the 1860's ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hackney_Central
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Not sure if it's already been picked up on - don't think so though...there's a young lady in the crowd at the back, wearing a nice broad-brimmed hat. I'd put the hat as post-1911, and probably pre-WW1. What does China think? :D
Cheers
Prue
(Sorry for the filename, it should have been "hat" at the end but my fingers got away from me!)
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Well spotted Prue. There's also a girl further to the right. Her clothes appear to be of a similar era.
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anything similar in this picture. c.1900 workman culverting hackney brook under Mare Street??
According to Wikipedia, the culverting of Hackney Brook took place in the 1860's ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hackney_Central
Yes, but it needed to be updated as a result of the widening of Mare Street (see history of Mare Street attached to reply #44 and reply #59).
Nigel
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Hi Prue, I'd seen it but there's not enough to go on. Your guess is as good as any...hat width went out until about 1910 and then started back in again.
Cheers,
China
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Thanks very much, Nigelp for digging that one up (post 66) - the Bernard Cribbens tune, I mean. Made me smile to listen to that again after all those years.
And apologies, everyone, for lowering the tone somewhat with my little sidetrack, from what has been an outstanding piece of Rootschat detective work. There's more little details being uncovered all the time too: thanks very much for the fashion-driven carbon dating as well! Wonderful...
keith
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Hi Prue, I'd seen it but there's not enough to go on. Your guess is as good as any...hat width went out until about 1910 and then started back in again.
Cheers,
China
True, very little to go on, but at least it puts it after 1900 and probably before the war - that's a pretty narrow window :)
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Is there anything on the back of the photo, Keith?
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hehe - Wouldn't it be funny if it was all written on the back?? LOL. This has been a really amazing thread to watch! And such a lot happened since I saw it last night!! Great work from everyone!
Hugely admire those sleuthing skills! See what genealogy research does for you?? Sharpens the mind!! But we know that!!
Cheers and congratulations to you all!!
Jeanne NZ
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Hi again, Shaun,
You've been doing some sterling work on this thread, and no, I'm afraid there are no clues written on the back of the photo. It's been mounted on something that is as brittle as a thin wafer, and the very first thing I managed to do was break off that top righthand corner, just by picking it up and not being ultra careful. For a few moments I thought I was going to be ostracised for ever by my brother's family for being so clumsy, but I immediately came clean about it - e-mailed my sister-in-law - and was forgiven (I think!)
keith
P.S. Presumably whoever in the family gave the precious photo to my sister in law might know something about how it came into the family - might ask about that and see whether that provides any more relevant information
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Can I just say what wonderful detective work! Shaun's link above clinches it. It even looks like that tree on the right on google maps link might even be the same as the one in Keith's photo. ;D
I thought that - before I read your response - same split into 3 trunks.
Kath
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no clues written on the back of the photo.
Shaun asked a great question...it's something we hammer repeatedly on but I forgot to ask :P
Doesn't have to be something written. A photographer's stamp or a printed design can be a great clue. Is there anything printed on the back or on the front of the mount?
It looks like there's some silvering-out going on in the print, which would make it a silver gelatin print made after 1885ish. Not much help, I know....I'm just saying :)
Cheers,
China
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Hi again, Shaun,
You've been doing some sterling work on this thread, and no, I'm afraid there are no clues written on the back of the photo. It's been mounted on something that is as brittle as a thin wafer, and the very first thing I managed to do was break off that top righthand corner, just by picking it up and not being ultra careful. For a few moments I thought I was going to be ostracised for ever by my brother's family for being so clumsy, but I immediately came clean about it - e-mailed my sister-in-law - and was forgiven (I think!)
keith
P.S. Presumably whoever in the family gave the precious photo to my sister in law might know something about how it came into the family - might ask about that and see whether that provides any more relevant information
For some reason I find this photo fascinating...... when you play around with the brightness & contrast settings in the picture, words start to appear all over the place.... try it ! It's most evident on the trousers of the man standing at the back with a bowler hat.
Keith, are there any indentations on the photo caused by people writing things on papers which were on top of the photo ?
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In case anyone is trying to make out the lettering above the shop at number 111, between Andre's and Simons, it should read Harragan or Harragans. They were a firm of cardboard box makers.
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There are various bits of information which should be brought together.
We know that Edward Gatfield was born in 1868. How old does he look in the photo? If the photo was taken in, say, 1905 or 1906 he would be about 37 or 38.
From the excellent research by Shaun we know that Solomon Simons was at this location between 1905 and 1912 (Solomon Simons is listed at this location in the 1912 Post Office Directory). We also know that Carl Andre was at this location as late as 1912 and was present much earlier. We also know that there was work to widen Mare Street and which ended at The Triangle during the period 1899 - 1906, although the work shown in the photo may not relate to this.
Can anyone provide better time limits on when Carl Andre and Solomon Simons were at this location?
My own view is that the photo is probably about 1905. Any other views?
Nigel
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Can anyone provide better time limits on when Carl Andre and Solomon Simons were at this location?
My own view is that the photo is probably about 1905. Any other views?
Nigel
I did look up the Simons family on the 1911 census, to see if the births of his children could pinpoint when he had moved there, but sadly not. It's quite amazing how much information we have managed to glean from this photo, but I don't think we are going to pinpoint the time it was taken any more accurately, with no vehicles in the picture, and no other hoardings. The only thing that I'm still puzzling over is something between the man at the back with the bowler, and the man to his right. There appears to be a stone base of some description - maybe a stone horse trough ?
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...... and no other hoardings.........
There are two other hoardings which might be legible or interpreted from a street directory. The first is the white ones in the windows on the north side of Westgate Street. The other is the one behind and beneath the Simons hoarding, visible just above the railings and between the left hand tree and the buildings.
Nigel
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The foremost standing man on the right is standing on a beam that seems to have a word on it...has this been discussed?? I played with the contrast but I don't have proper photo software.
Heehee...the file name is almost twice as big as the photo :)
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GNR?
Kath
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Hi again, Everyone,
I had tucked the photo away, somewhere where it could not come to any more harm (in my hands). But by popular (Poplar?) request I'll reluctantly and nervously get it out again - kid gloves, hardly daring to as much as breathe on it - and give it the once over for any further clues...
keith
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The man standing at the back with the boater has a 2 1/2" starched collar first seen around 1905,a short lived style that was replaced by the end of the decade by the smaller 1 3/4" collar so, a date of 1905-10.
jim
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Didn't Shaun's post 34 tell us that the Andre firm only became a music school AFTER 1910, which might more precisely date the photo, could indeed be 1910 itself...
keith
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Didn't Shaun's post 34 tell us that the Andre firm only became a music school AFTER 1910, which might more precisely date the photo, could indeed be 1910 itself...
keith
From knowledge of my own family's business the descriptions in the Post Office / Street Directories are not always comprehensive, consistent or entirely accurate. For example, one of my ancestors is described as a cabinet maker in a directory and although that is correct he was also a retailer of furniture and china with the precise description varying in other years. I'm not sure that it can, therefore, be said that Carl Andre did not have a music school at the location before 1910.
In the 1912 Post Office Directory Selfridges of Oxford Street has the description of 'drapers' although the store sold a wide variety of goods.
Nigel
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The marks on one of the beams could well be GNR, or maybe GER, respectively Great Northern and Great Eastern Railway Companies as both had London termini. If the beam had seen previous service as a track support (sleeper) that it is possible that in that era company names were stenciled on some in a consignment by the suppliers.
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Just a few thoughts which popped into my head as I have read through all the posts on this fascinating subject:
I wonder why the photograph was taken. Maybe someone just wanted a photo of the workteam or perhaps something significant had happened (I've no suggestion as to what that might be) and I wonder, could this image have appeared in a newspaper? Would a group of workmen normally have attracted the attention of passersby; there is certainly a very interested group at the back.
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Would a group of workmen normally have attracted the attention of passersby; there is certainly a very interested group at the back.
It's the camera which attracts attention. Look at any live news clip on TV
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A rhetorical question. Something significant might have happened and this photo could have been included in a newspaper article. If so, it would explain everything. Just a thought. The detective work on this thread has been terrific!
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This is really only a small 'aside' comment and possibly not pertinent considering the current tenor of the thread - but I mention it because it's a great pic and I've only just chanced upon it.
I noticed a couple of earlier contributors alluded to the trousers being tied below the knee.
In New Zealand and Australia these straps, or thongs that hold the trousers just below the knees are called bowyangs.
They are tied just above the calves.
Their simple function is to bunch a little of the material above the thong, with the sole purpose of stopping the trousers falling down. (Notice the gathered material above the knees of the chap as he stands second from left).
They were seen as a necessity for those who worked at a job with a lot of leg-bending. It is very much the same as a pulling up the knees of trousers before sitting down. ('Builder's Cr...k' just wasn't acceptable in those days of yore.)
Bowyangs are still extensively used by shearers of sheep in this part of the world - and it isn't through modesty, but rather the circumvention of the necessity to continually hitch up ones trousers when both hands are otherwise occupied.
Hope this helps in the greater scheme of things.
Ed
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Would a group of workmen normally have attracted the attention of passersby; there is certainly a very interested group at the back.
Sorry for wandering slightly off topic but I can't help thinking of the similarity to the painting by Ford Maddox Brown in 1865
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Madox_Brown
These men were apparently working on the new drainage system.
Jo
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Hi again, Everyone,
I realise that we're competing now with other lovely threads on here, particularly the one: "Great-Gran on a Motorbike", but this particular one has been a real revelation - and nearly a hundred posts - and the last two contributions by Marengo and Jocie add more colour and interest to what has been a fascinating exploration of a hundred-year-old black and white photo...
Marengo, I've just re-watched the 1960's (?) comedy: "They're a Weird Mob", in which an immigrant Italian tries to make his way in Australia, having to start earning his money by labouring. Though I think he was in shorts rather than with bowyangs hitching up his trouser legs!
The Ford Madox Brown painting of the gang of workmen in Heath St., Hampstead is one that I've always liked ...
Many thanks, keith
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Without going into too much detail I can tell you that the works are nothing at all to do with railways.
At the time the photo was taken the nearest underground railway was to the south at Shoreditch and that line ran predominantly east - west.
The over ground lines that are nearest to the location of the photo are high up on viaducts and embankments. The line that runs north - south from Bethnal Green to Hackney Downs was opened in 1872.
So nothing at all to do with railways. :)
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Correct. The nearest rail line in 1905 ran across the road on a steel box bridge about 200 metres from where the photo was taken, which is still there.
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In which case if not underground railway what about underground toilets? I seem to recall seeing some in London but can't recall where.
Otherwise what else would need such large strong beams?
Jean
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Without going into too much detail I can tell you that the works are nothing at all to do with railways.
railways. :)
The only connec tion I implied with railways was that the supporting beams may have had earlier service as railway track supports; sleepers in the UK, ties in North America.
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In which case if not underground railway what about underground toilets? I seem to recall seeing some in London but can't recall where.
Otherwise what else would need such large strong beams?
Jean
I am separated from this job by not only a century or so but by the physical tyranny of 19 000 kilometres. So, although having some engineering background, I hold back from appearing too authoritative.
However, I would make these suggestions:
I am struck by the complete absence of tools - apart from the ladder.
I don't think any of the pictured timber is permanent. The supporting beams certainly aren't - they're well above road level.
I think the two capstan screws merely suspend the formwork decking (planking beneath their feet) from the crossbeams.
It is possible that the work (which I would guess would probably be sewerage) is fairly much done and that it has all taken place below their feet, under the decking.
Wouldn't it be nice if there was a readi-mix truck just waiting around the corner ready to pour concrete on top of that planking. Then we could take all that timber away underneath, leaving a beautifully strong lid, just under street level. Then we could stop bothering that music teacher with all our dust and blasphemy.
PS. That great grandad of mine from Limerick (below), swears they're digging for gold.
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In which case if not underground railway what about underground toilets? I seem to recall seeing some in London but can't recall where.
Otherwise what else would need such large strong beams?
Jean
I am separated from this job by not only a century or so but by the physical tyranny of 19 000 kilometres. So, although having some engineering background, I hold back from appearing too authoritate.
However, I would make these suggestions:
I am struck by the complete absence of tools - apart from the ladder.
I don't think any of the pictured timber is permanent. The supporting beams certainly aren't - they're well above road level.
I think the two capstan screws merely suspend the formwork decking (planking beneath their feet from the crossbeams).
It is possible that the work (which I would guess would probably be sewerage) is fairly much done and that it has all taken place below their feet, under the decking.
Wouldn't it be nice if there was a readi-mix truck just waiting around the corner ready to pour concrete on top of that planking. Then we could take all that timber away underneath, leaving a beautifully strong lid, just under street level. Then we could stop bothering that music teacher with all our dust and blasphemy.
See reply 42
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Not much to add here as this thread has been going on for a while and the location and date is solved however immediately behind Edward Gatfield is a ladder which is obscuring the music school name thus pertaining the work was under the level where the men are standing they wouldn’t need ladder access into that trench where they are standing
The children are dressed in what I would call 1910’s clothes and one boy is on a bicycle
The spindle things are called winches my granddad used to turn one when opening the swingbridge where I live this has now been replaced with an electric version
I also spotted the Simons sign but could read what it said and thought maybe it was an estate agents sign! Lol
Finally the man in the centre with the bowler hat and the man standing on the beam behind him on the building in between the two there are some white things on the windows
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Hi Toni,
I don't think the date is solved. There are different views as to whether the photo was, say, about 1905-6 or 1910-12.
Nigel
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Having just had another look at the picture, I realised those cross beams are much too long to have ever been railway sleepers.
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Well, right or wrong I am going to let you in on what I have found out thus far about what MIGHT be going on in this street view.
I am now convinced that the works are associated with the development and extension of the sewers and storm water drains across London. Flooding had been an issue for a good number of years. One of the problems being that storm water could not drain into the Thames from low lying areas at high water. The solution proposed circa 1897 was to construct relief drains and sewers to compliment what was already there. Also additional pumping stations were to be built to raise the storm waters up and above high water mark enabling the storm water to be pumped into the river and prevent flooding. Work commenced in 1901 and continued until the project was finished in 1906. In this instance the storm drain was purely that and only (clean) rainwater would have passed through it. The map I will attach shows 'clean' drains in green and 'dirty' drains (sewers) in red.
I came across a map (dated 1930) that shows one of the relief drains in exactly the location we are discussing. It is identified as the High Level Relief Storm Drain. I will attach a cropped and highlighted section of that map.
I also found an online book about the sewers and drains that makes for interesting reading if you feel like digging (no pun intended ;D) a little deeper for yourselves.
Link to the map; http://www.sewerhistory.org/images/bm/bmm3/1930_bmm315.jpg
Link to the book; http://www.sewerhistory.org/articles/whregion/1930_abm1/index.htm
Hope you enjoying piecing it together. It is certainly fascinating.
Referring back to the large timber beams laid across the works, I believe that they would have been used to shore up the sides of what would have been a very deep trench. I think that timbers will line the trench and the winding mechanism perhaps is used to keep the shoring pressed tight against the side of the trench providing a safe and protected work environment for the navvies.
P ;D
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I just checked the 1908 PO Directory - which was presumably compiled in 1907.
Solomon Simons, cabinet maker, was still in Shoreditch. There is no listing for 113 Mare Street.
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I just checked the 1908 PO Directory - which was presumably compiled in 1907.
Solomon Simons, cabinet maker, was still in Shoreditch. There is no listing for 113 Mare Street.
Hi Shaun,
Do you mean that there is nobody listed at 113 Mare Street or that someone other than Solomon Simons is listed at 113 Mare Street?
Nigel
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How about the original enquirer contacting Peckham History Society - they have a web site.
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How about the original enquirer contacting Peckham History Society - they have a web site.
Why the Peckham History Society? Hackney is on the other side of the Thames and nowhere near Peckham.
Nigel
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Do you mean that there is nobody listed at 113 Mare Street or that someone other than Solomon Simons is listed at 113 Mare Street?
There is no listing for 113 Mare Street in the 1908 Directory. It is not listed. It goes 109, 111, ....here is West Street.... 121. Suggests it was vacant.
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Do you mean that there is nobody listed at 113 Mare Street or that someone other than Solomon Simons is listed at 113 Mare Street?
There is no listing for 113 Mare Street in the 1908 Directory. It is not listed. It goes 109, 111, ....here is West Street.... 121. Suggests it was vacant.
There is also no entry for 113 in the 1902 Directory. A bit strange if the building was vacant for 6 or more years. The building appears to have existed as it is shown on maps.
Nigel
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I am enthralled to have spent a bit of time on a well known mapping site and at the very junction where the old photo was taken, there is all these years later, clear evidence of a large hole having been dug in the exact same location! Just look at that big patch of tarmac that is different colour to the rest. What ever is under there, it still needs attention now and again.
P ;D
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There is also no entry for 113 in the 1902 Directory. A bit strange if the building was vacant for 6 or more years. The building appears to have existed as it is shown on maps.
Occupant of 113 in the 1905 directory was Henry Furse, boot manufacturer
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Well spotted Phodgetts !
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Sorry I thought Andrews the Musician of Parkstone Road, Peckham was the one in the picture.
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... bowyangs hitching up his trouser legs! ...
A friend of mine used to refer to them as "yirks" or perhaps yorks.
Anyway, I've found a reference to them as yorks-
Yorks — strings tied around the leg below the knee to hitch trouser bottoms clear of muck — were known to railway navvies in the 1840s ...
From http://www.victorianweb.org/history/work/sullivan/4.html
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Do you mean that there is nobody listed at 113 Mare Street or that someone other than Solomon Simons is listed at 113 Mare Street?
There is no listing for 113 Mare Street in the 1908 Directory. It is not listed. It goes 109, 111, ....here is West Street.... 121. Suggests it was vacant.
There is also no entry for 113 in the 1902 Directory. A bit strange if the building was vacant for 6 or more years. The building appears to have existed as it is shown on maps.
Nigel
According to this site (http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=22697) the whole area was being redeveloped during the early 1900's, so it's possible that the houses may have been renumbered at some stage.
In 1901, Solomon Simons was trading as a cabinet maker at 70 Church Street, Bethnall Green (parish of St Philips), and in 1911 he was resident at 113 Mare Street. There is no indication on the 1911 census how long he had been resident there.
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More magnificent sleuthing being going on here since last I looked.
That present-day photo is incredible, Phodgetts...
I'm surprised none of the other sturdy men in the original have been claimed by anyone else as ancestors - I wonder how many of them fell in the imminent carnage of the Great War.
keith
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More magnificent sleuthing being going on here since last I looked.
That present-day photo is incredible, Phodgetts...
I'm surprised none of the other sturdy men in the original have been claimed by anyone else as ancestors - Iwonder how many of them fell in the imminent carnage of the Great War.
keith
Quite agree with you Keith, I have also been amazed on the info that has been found.
I keep expecting to find a posting saying "That's my XX ancestor" and getting details of exactly what the construction was. :)
Jean
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It is amazing how much work has been done on this photograph. Even my husband. who normally sits happily on the sidelines where family history is concerned, has taken a real interest it.
Perhaps when this finally comes to an end someone may have an equally interesting challenge. ;) My family photographs all seem to be of the portrait variety.
Jo
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Hi again, Everyone,
It does look as though this thread has now run its natural course, so many thanks to all those who have used their ingenuity and knowledge to make this a thoroughly enjoyable and educational one.
Just a postscript to say that Edward GATFIELD lived until he was 80 years old, before dying in the Poplar area in 1948, so he survived the London blitz as well as the hardships of navvy-ing away in the sewers and various holes of London that were dug for whatever reason - obviously a fit and strong man...
keith
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The last posted message in here was 6 years ago so I may have missed the boat! Hopefully Keith will see it if he's still around on here. I was doing a google search on Lamprell St and discovered this post. My Nan and her Nan lived there in 17 Lamprell Street right next door. I haven't read all 14 pages of this post coz i need to get a move on today but my Nan's uncle was George Sowerbutts who married Florence Ivy Gatfield next door. Just wondered if your sister in law knows anything about this? George worked on the railway and stayed in no. 15 with his sister on and off for a long time. I've still got plenty of researching to go but got bizarrely excited to see this post!
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the first chap standing on a beam bottom right.there is something on the beam do's it say something gass??
Funny you should say that. I saw something there too, but I also saw some radiating lines on the print just above the letters, and I thought it could have come from another photo stacked on top.
The foremost standing man on the right is standing on a beam that seems to have a word on it...has this been discussed?? I played with the contrast but I don't have proper photo software.
Heehee...the file name is almost twice as big as the photo :)
N x 65
or
G x 65